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PS, thanks for the reply on the Arb board, thought I'd reply here to save clutter as its getting a little tangenital. Didnt know much of that, as you say its interesting and I suspect youre right in all you say. The OED makes clear the root words are from the Germanic and Swedish (viking) languages from which English is partly derived, so while it makes sense to say the C word might have originally had the harsh closed off quality in English (possibly reflecting sexist attitudes at the time), its also reasonable to say its roots had a more fitting word sound. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 14:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Rediculously rediculous indeed pesky, those Germanic infuences have a lot to answer for!
As Spengler tells it, in the 10th century, when Western Civilisation was born on the fields of Germany and France, God the Father was felt as Force itself. Eternal , grand, sacred causality: unconceiveable in any form comprehensible to the human eye. Jesus too was felt by us common people to be almost hopelessly out of reach , and so much of the desire of our young soul to bow itself in humility before the divine found its expression in the figure of the Virgin. At the centre of much early Gothic art, she was a Light figure, garbed in white blue & gold, surrounded by celestial hosts. Peterus Damiani and Bernard of Clarivaus helped establish her pan–European cult. Around her gathered countless legends , beliefs and new customs. The Angelic greeting, The Ave Maria, among the Dominicans the crown of roses ; among the Franciscans the festival of the Visitation. Here among the Benedictines arose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception – which elevated her above mortality into the world of light.
But this world of purity, light and utter beauty of soul would have been impossible without its dark counter-part. A foe that breeds woe - seduces, tricks, corrupts – the realm of the devil. Pervading the whole of creation, it was everywhere, laying in ambush for the unwary. A countless army of goblins , wraiths , werewolves and witches. In dark moments an appalling fear weighs on man – every moment he may stumble into the abyss.
Life was a ceaseless and desperate conflict with the devil. The Church Triumphant of angles and saints in their glory looked down from on high. Mary was the tender protectoress and intercessor with God to whose bossom the troubled soul could flee for comfort. .
Providing relief from this terrible dread was the prime sacrament of Contrition. The certainty in the power of absolution invested in the priests brought a blissful happiness which is now scarcely imaginabl .
Its impossible to exaggerate the grandeur of this forceful, insistent picture - or the depth of sincerity with which it was believed.
Both the Mary-myths and the Devil-myth were not merely imagined but felt as vital actualities that shook men and woman to their inner most beings. They were believed in with a faith which felt the very notion of proof as a kind of blasphemy.
But when Luther destroyed the common peoples faith with his rediculous reformation, many lost all believe in the power of absolution. Along with the inward bliss of aquital and the certainty of salvation in the next life. With it faded almost all the Mary world of light. But the fear of devil and his witches remained, and much of the gynophobia arose from this. Another reason for the double standards regarding male and female parts...
PS - still havent worked out what the extra a in refined was for? Was it to create a rime with caned? And please let me know if you think I deserve a horse whipping for filling your talk page with this rediculous religous ramble :-) FeydHuxtable ( talk) 17:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
When the term 'Civility Police' is used, I think it is an attempt to separate those labelled CP from the rest of the crowd, the community. Like we are stick wielding, gun toting, High-minders with antennae ears and pea sized brains just waiting to stomp on the first editor that says "darn!" When the term Neighbor is used we are one of the members of the community, entitled to speak up. In fact, expected to speak up. My ears are getting a bit waxy and need a good cleaning. TRA!--- Buster Seven Talk 14:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I have a label too. When I got it it was self-stick. I tried velcro but that didnt work. Now I have a patch, sewn onto my breast pocket. Im proud of it. I dont go out on partol. But if something happens right in front of me, Ive made a personal committment to respond. What little voice I have is as a member of the large peer group called Wikipedia Editors (WE). WE dont always have a meeting of the minds, which is understandable since there are ___,000 members. But, WE are everywhere in WikiLand. There is not a corner or a back-room that doesnt contain at least one of us. And, most of us are silent when we see something uncomfortable. Sidebar: When I was 10, my uncle gave me a horse...not really but I was 10. What did I know about horse ownership. He was an enormous Belgian Clydsdale workhorse named Luc. I "owned" him for a summer vacation. He taught me everything there was to know about being the strongest living thing you can imagine while at the same time being the most gentle creature that ever has lived. Endsidebar. To the best of my recollection I have never sworn at or cursed any of my fellow editors...ever..no matter what the level of provocation might be. I have never brought up a fellow member on "charges" at any of the resources available. I also have no stick or gun and I dont aspire to get ever them. I like to live in a peaceful environment and, at best, remind adjacent editors when that peace is threatened. Another Sidebar: Syringing sounds like it might be painful. But many times the pain is only momentary. And relief is so pleasant. TRA!--- Buster Seven Talk 17:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
To your knowledge has there ever been a broad based discussion about editors being citizens. Maybe not as an end in itself (too many passports, documentation, customs agents,etc.) but as the genesis of a discussion about solutions. The Civility enforcemnet sites clearly show that we are two (or more) countries separated by a common language. Now its obvious that out mutual language allows us to come together, but we bring along with us all our cultural baggage. And, as we see, its the cultural baggage that, sometimes, causes dysfunction. The cultures that people live in around the world took generations to form...building, nurturing, teaching, even scolding. Maybe that is at the heart our polarized civility situation?. As a community we are very young. We don't hold/see/understand corrections as positives: we hold them as criticisms. We don't see the helping hand: we only see the finger pointing. Our culture at WP is still being formed (some would say we don't have a culture) One thing I learned early in life is "How and where do you plug into The Conversation." Whether its about politics or civility at a website or porn or ecology, etc etc. There is always a conversation. The how, what, where, and why of plugging in defines us...especially here in WikiWorld. I think we are plugged into a similar sockets. I'm starting to rant so I'll stop. TRA!... Buster Seven Talk 15:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
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Not an area I know enough about.
Pesky (
talk …
stalk!)
11:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
[1] I was told earlier today that my TFA is not of "main page quality". How am I expected to react to that? Malleus Fatuorum 21:07, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This contribution [2] is inappropriate and beyond the norms of good faith discussion. I'm not a party to the case, and I'd appreciate it if you would desist from running to the evidence page with some kind of trumped up complaint over my not buying your cultural relativity argument. I'm going to reorganize my contributions to that page, because by participating there I am consenting to a discussion, not to being hauled before Arbcom as evidence. - Wikidemon ( talk) 17:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
You apparently just chose not to believe me when I said I was genuinely offended.
And now you're calling it "trumped up".
If the Arbs think it's not relevant as a comparison of the different ways in which incivility is perceived, then they can choose to ignore it, but I think it's actually a good example.
I'm just sorry that it ended up being one. :o( I hope you can understand why I'd rather leave it up to the Arbs to ignore if they don't think it's relevant to the question of civility. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 17:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
The way it came across, on-screen was that you found it implausible that the speaker (and by extension, all of us Brit speakers saying the same thing) didn't know how offensive it was; that the word was offensive in that sexist, misogynistic way. (I'm trying to work my way around this explanation, if I get it right, you'll understand it.)
I was offended because what I understood from that was that you didn't believe we didn't know that elsewhere it had the extra-offense of being sexist, too, despite it having been said over and over. That was why I was offended - because of your apparent disbelief in what we were all saying. What happened next was that Dave Dial put up a very snarky, sarcastic post; following that, from my angle of vision, was that I was then scoffed at for having been offended.
And then disbelieved, again, about having been offended. I'm trying to make a real effort to understand the way you express yourself, because I'd like to think that you don't mean stuff the way it comes across. Things like "You are indeed doing something ridiculous and unwarranted, taking offense over something that isn't there."
Well, it was there, if you read it that way. From my point of view it was there; from yours it wasn't. Implausible that we didn't know how (sexist, misogynistic) offensive it was.
I don't know whether perhaps you just use words differently from the way I do, but a lot of the words you choose (like "claimed", "supposedly offended", and so on) have strong connotations of "this person is lying about this - they are pretending to have been offended". So, now that you're aware of that, wouldn't you personally be offended if someone had implied that you were only pretending to have been offended? I'm sure you would.
I wish I could hear your tone of voice and see your body language when I read your words. The words themselves, purely black-on-white, come across as scathing, contemptuous, belittling. Did you mean them to be? If not, then I'm sorry we've misunderstood each other.
I can't see how to use that conversation - which was such a good example, the way I saw it, of someone having been genuinely offended by something, saying so, then offended again, and scoffed at - as an illustration of the differing views on "what is incivility", without referring to the conversation. I'll certainly consider striking it out of evidence, with the comment that it arose from no-fault-either-way misunderstanding, if that will really make you happier. I would like to make sure, though, that you really do understand what there was to be offended by - by looking at it the way it came out, not just the way you meant it. And if you could avoid using words which carry the implication that you don't believe what people are saying, then people are much less likely to be offended by apparent assumptions of bad faith. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 18:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I've removed that; I was pretty sure, reading through your other posts, that we must have been getting our wires totally crossed there somewhere, as you seemed like a perfectly rational person everywhere else!
I'm really glad we finally managed to iron out the wrinkles in that one, it was getting to feel a bit surreal, lol! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 18:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I personally think that all of the above is a classic example of how much unrecognized sexism exists on WP, especially where there is also a generational divide. We "crones" were the "witches" of times past, attacked viciously for no more than seeing and speaking the truth. And the vitriol we encounter now when we but speak the truth would make us, if they could, be burned for witchcraft on WP today, wouldn't we? (Kim V just "retired" again over yet another wiki-war, FYI, I'd make book on when she returns, though -- it's an addiction, this! ) Montanabw (talk) 03:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Today is very much a morphine-day, so please excuse any minor glitches in judgment etc. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Query: Is Jimbo's quotation linked in the evidence section of the civility case? I did a text search for "Jimbo" in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility_enforcement/Evidence without a result. I have been depressing myself reading the civility case and came across your "'RfA is a horrible and broken process.' Jimbo" quotation via this then case history (so I ended up depressing myself more). Point is, the whole civility case started at RfA did it not? If we can find the Jimbo quote and given supporting context it should, in my opinion, be part of the evidence (top level acknowledgement supporting the motivation for MF's frustrations at that venue) -- Senra ( talk) 16:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
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A cup 'o' tea; hope you get better soon. Cheers, HurricaneFan 25 16:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC) |
Buster7 has given you some Nice Koekjes which promote fellowship, goodwill and WikiLove. Hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the good flavor of Nice Koekjes around Wiki World by giving someone else one. Maybe to a friend or, better yet, to someone you have had disagreements with in the past. Nice Koekjes are very tasty and have been known to be so NICE, they will even bake themselves. Enjoy!
[scrunch, scrunch, scrunch ....] Mmmmmm, fank yew! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 05:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I was not aware of any of the events described by you here. My goodness, Pesky. I do not have the words to say how bad I feel about a community that could treat anyone in the unjust way you described. It seems to me that too many Wikipedia community postings suffer from a ditto mentality. I entirely agree with you, that every editor should judge each case themselves before embarking on a "me too" response. Please accept this small token as a reminder that at least one other editor feels as you do. If any lurkers have any doubt about what I mean above, read the case in its entirety, including all diffs!
Senra (
talk)
17:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Aaaahh, but have two giant real-life cats, as well as one standard moggy, and Bryn (four feet long, nose-tip to tail-tip, and 10KG) likes nothing better than to snuggle up alongside me on the bed whenever he can. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 16:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
You've got one ;) WormTT · ( talk) 15:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
[sigh]. Lots of painz, lots of morphinez. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:56, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
One of life's great joys and no-cost fun things ... walking across frozen, crunchy grass, with bare feet :o) amazing sensation; some people don't know what they're missing when they have their feet enclosed in footwear all the time. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 19:57, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Editors can not be goaded into an aggressive response. No matter what the other editor does or says or types, there is no acceptable Pavlovian response that allows aggression. Whatever the new policy states, it should not even hint that, under certain conditions, it is OK to use words that are unexceptable in most every social setting. Hope your health issues get resolved. §:~).. Buster Seven Talk 22:30, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! I was reading Nozdref's talk page and suddenly see your note on Reflinks. I'll use this method.
Kavas (
talk)
21:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
As indicated here, both the evidence and the workshop pages and their respective talk pages are closed. Cheers. Salvio Let's talk about it! 14:00, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
you are a howl girl. :) — Ched : ? 14:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
No need to reply to my comment at MF's page (or on mine), he just lost the project another editor/admin. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 10:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm taking a break, Pesky. Dunno how long it will be. Don't let the Wikiwolves snap at your ankles too much! Cheers,
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk)
10:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
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My oldest is 30 today! Seems like yesterday, the day he was born. Being rushed full-pelt along the hospital corridor, on a trolley, with the anaesthetist pumping the gunge into me on the run, and the consultant (bless her!) yelling "Get out of the fucking way!" to people in the doorway ... emergency C-section! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 10:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
re [4]. We're going about it all wrong. Editors calmly discussing differing opinions doesn't attract any attention. You should revert me with a snarky comment with an innuendo insult, I'll revert you with a sexist, ageist, and/or nationalistic insult. Next we go to ANI and sling mud at each other, and then we'll get some other editors contributing to the content discussion. Nobody Ent 14:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I thing you meant "think", not "thing" here [5] Nobody Ent 00:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
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The article about the Alexander technique may appeal to you, given your impulses to do justice, practice mercy, and walk humbly. It also concerns chronic back-pain and British health care. Kiefer. Wolfowitz 15:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Pesky, I would be happy to supply that evidence. I have found several pages that use DO to describe physicians with this qualification including pages from: DO professional organizations, government pages, peer-reviewed research from academic journals (government pages and peer-reviewed journals are noteworthy to address the objection brought up that the term DO was colloquial and not suitable as a formal word but I have found it is used in formal arenas as mentioned). Where would it be best for me to supply the evidence in the form of links? Here or on your talk page or a different page? As for literaturegeek's response, I do accept the premise of wikipedia consensus but I do not believe wikipedia consensus has been achieved yet since we are still in the phase of presenting arguments/evidence to attempt to persuade other editors and work toward consensus building not to mention only a few of us have even participated in this debate at all though I do not know if a certain amount of people need to participate in a debate to achieve consensus or not. Anyway, please let me know where you would like me to present evidence of my claims and I will do so. I left this response on the dispute resolution noticeboard page as well but I wanted to make sure you could see it since I was primarily addressing your response. DoctorK88 ( talk) 20:13, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Hello Pesky, I was looking through some old stuff earlier and was shocked and appalled to see that, in April last year, I'd told Chzz that I'd have a look at History of the horse in Britain "some time soonish", but had forgotten all about it! All I managed to do was to try passing the buck (surely a stallion, in this context!) to Ealdgyth... Really sorry, real life excuses etc. I see that the History of the horse in Britain is now a GA, so I'm a bit late (typical British understatement) – I do tend to plough my own furrow in WP, but if there's anything similar I can do to make up for it, feel free to ask me directly, though I be not worthy etc... Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Ah good, thanks! Yes, another pic would be good, at the moment I'm holding out for the one in that 18th century Dutch book - if we get that, I'd stick it in the infobox and move the painting back where it was. [sticks head tentatively above the parapet, wondering if he's up for it] Would you like me to have a go at emailing the Greenwich museum library for it? One can only try... About the dates, great, I'll work that into the article. By the way, I haven't spotted anything yet about who the ship was originally built for, any idea? Was it the VOC? Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 14:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Brit library - see Wikipedia:GLAM/BL, speak to Fæ ( talk · contribs) Chzz ► 09:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
“The VOC stopped using hoekers towards the end of the 17th century,” explains Jaco Boshoff, maritime archaeologist at Iziko Museums of Cape Town. “But they constructed some periodically mainly for use at their colonies as multi-purpose vessels.” He says four hoekers were constructed in the second half of the 18th century for the Cape service ... “In fact the request for a new vessel from the government at the Cape in 1759 to their masters in Holland mentions the slave trade with Madagascar as one of the main functions for the new vessel.” ref
Point me at the journal article, and I'll see what other little nuggets of info I can dig out from it (if any). I'm still waiting for news of Meermin actually being identified, and archaeological work done one her. I have her on a Google news alert – so I'll get pinged the minute she hits the news! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
You carry on playing with text and refs, and I'll carry on playing with the picture. I thin Alexander's full thesis / theses was / were available on scientific commons, or something like that, can't remember exactly, off the top of my head. JSTOR or Wiley may have it, as well. I always find laughing at my OCD is one of the best ways to deal with it – at least acknowledging it is supposed to be a good step! Speaking of which, if you enjoy the same situation, I haz a NPOV version of the thing, and a userbox ({{User:ThatPeskyCommoner/OCDUserbox}} ) which you are welcome to share. Back to that picture ... the lower sections of the rigging are still looking a bit "heavy", to my eye ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Moominland... I never understood it all, myself! Probably too late now... The "awful greenish eyesore" is the Amsterdam Silence Museum, I expect you noticed that - for shame! When the replica ship is so magnificent, and something to so be proud of (unlike the history of the Meermin). I expect you've also noticed that pennants look to have been flown from the mast-tops, rather than flags, e.g. in the painting of 1792. Incidentally, you just might want to have a look at this site, which has lots of ship pictures on this page, though the best (and first) one's had its mast-tops cropped off [gah!]– actually, looking closely at the stern of the ship in the painting of 1792, I'd have thought it's the Noord-Holland, described here, if the file description didn't say it was the Noord-Nieuwland...? The intertubes can be a joy sometimes, but a right pest at others...! Nortonius ( talk) 18:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Pretty pics :o) Pages look so much better with a few pics ...
I think she took quite a while to break up, once she grounded. They auctioned stuff from her for about a week, and then just let her lie. The April date is possibly just her "registered date of destruction" Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 08:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I have now removed the flags and the mooring posts ... heh! OCD rules OK! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 10:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
From the pic on the left to the pic on the right! You may all express you admiration here ;P Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
De hoeker was eigenlijk een vissersvaartuig (vandaar de naam omdat het met hoekwant viste), maar werd ook wel voor de koopvaardij gebruikt. In 1664 besloot de VOC dit schip in haar vloot op te nemen. De Kamer van Delft kocht vier schepen. De Rotterdamse Kamer was de eerste die in 1667 de bouw van een serie hoekers startte. Al na 1670 verdwenen de hoekers weer uit de schepenlijsten van de VOC. ... De meeste hoekers waren 80 voet lang en 20 voet breed en hadden een holte van 11 voet. De hoeker had een brede boeg en achtersteven. Zij hadden een grote en een bezaansmast met vierkante zeilen. De grotere hoekers hadden ook nog een fokkemast, zoals de iets kleinere fluiten. Het zeil van de bezaansmast was dan vervangen door een driehoekig Latijns zeil. Na 1670 werd nog slechts af en toe een hoeker gebouwd, zoals in 1695. Die was groter dan de andere: 90 voet en een duim lang, 23 voet en zes duim breed en een holte van 11 voet en 10,5 duim. ref, VOCsite
Translates approximately to this: "The hooker / hoeker was actually a fishing vessel (hence the name as fishing was done with hooks) but was also used as a merchant ship. In 1664 The VOC decided to include this type of ship in its fleet. The Delft Chamber built four ships. The Rotterdam Chamber was the first to build a series of hoekers starting in 1667. After 1670 there were no more hoekers in the VOC's ship lists. … Most hoekers were 80 feet (voet, actually) long and 20 feet (voet) wide and had a hole (cargo door?) of 11 feet. The hoeker had a wide bow and stern. They had a great mast and a mizzen mast with square sails. The larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles. The mizzen mast sail was replaced with a triangular lateen sail. After 1670, only an occasional hoeker was built, as in 1695. That was bigger than the others: 90 feet (voet) and one inch long, 23 feet (voet) 6 ins wide, with a depth of 11 feet (voet) 10.5 inches."
Thing is, most hoekers were pine built, but Meermin was an oak-built ship, so would have been proportionately heavier for her dimensions than the standard pine-built ones (oak is significantly heaver than pine). I wonder if the VOC site have her burthen incorrect? Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes I share your anticipation of incredible coolness! XD I only hope he's up for it... I hadn't thought to mention the saga and your thinking behind it, despite my admiration, does that make me a selfish oaf?!I'll only accept answers to that question from Pesky! No problem, superb in fact! But, that could ultimately mean disclosing who you are IRL to Mr Boshoff at least, as well as who I am, and, once it's out there, who knows? Unless I were forever to be your go-between in this ( Banksy? Who he?!), that is, and obviously I can stress in diplomatic terms that confidentiality would be "required"...?
About those bloomin' "whistles", though– I've just spotted that the Dutch quotation from VOCsite above says "zoals de iets kleinere fluiten". That sentence doesn't say that the "larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles"– it just means that the "larger hoekers also had a fore-mast, as in the slightly smaller fluyts"! Phew, what a palaver– sorry, and thank gawd I noticed that before asking Mr Boshoff! :o) Nortonius ( talk) 18:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. I'm holding off emailing Mr Boshoff until I'm certain-sure you've seen my comments in the preceding para about potential disclosure, let me know! I've absolutely 0 intention to be patronising here, I know you're a "grown-up" and want me to email– it's just that I really don't want to be responsible for setting this train in motion without an explicit "go", in a re-assuring response to my scaredy-cat reservations about possible outcomes! I could post a "proposed email" in a sandbox if you like, suitably redacted of course...? :o)
(If I may!) Pesky, I'm wondering what you might make of this: in Hogerzeil, S. & Richardson, D. (2007), "Slave Purchasing Strategies and Shipboard Mortality: Day-to-Day Evidence from the Dutch African Trade, 1751–1797", The Journal of Economic History, vol. 67, p. 163, n. 7, it says:
[According to] one of the [Dutch Middelburgsche Commercie Compagnie's] captain's logs… 13 [cheques]… had been entrusted to a certain captain Martynus Bruijne Hoogerzeyl of the ship De Meermin, for transport from Paramaribo [now in Suriname, in South America] to Middelburg [capital of Zeeland province, south-west Netherlands. Another log book entry] identified Martynus as captain of De Meermin, arriving in Paramaribo [on 24 February 1765] with 328 slaves from Angola.
A year earlier, surely a different Dutch ship– "De Meermin", not just "Meermin"– and in different places, but what a strange coincidence! Nortonius ( talk) 09:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Op 27 januari 1761 voer op haar eerste reis de 'Meermin' uit vanaf Texel. Het schip bereikte op 15 juni daarop Kaap de Goede Hoop. Zij bleef dienst doen aan de Kaap tot 9 april 1766 toen het schip aan de grond liep en verging.
[On January 27, 1761 on her maiden voyage the 'Meermin' departed from Texel. The ship reached the Cape of Good Hope on June 15. She continued service on the Cape until April 9, 1766 when the ship ran aground and sank.]
So that's pretty sure; she never left the Cape service. Shal we set up our own private detective agency after we've written Meermin –The Musical ? ;P
Oooh, and yes, I noticed the "Silence Musem" as well – funnier thing is that our childhood / family nickname for the London Science Museum was also the Silence Museum! Of course it's changed now; they like kids to make a noise and have fun playing with things. Much better! My grandmother's huge mansion flat was five minutes' walk from Kensington Gardens, and my MI5 aunt took us around the museums occasionally. Of course, that was in the sixties ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Ah, glad you like it! :o) I had a go at squeezing a bit more clarity out of the image, but only managed to make the original caption more legible, so I've left it alone– I wonder if it could be done, though...? ;op Also, I've
just swapped the map for one wot I made earlier, comparatively a close-up, with locations of– well, you'll see. Any good? The software I used is pre-2003 vintage, so "ATLANTIC OCEAN" is poorly rendered, and I do believe that the Scale has somehow become stretched– I made Stellenbosch to be about 91 miles from Struisbaai, but it looks much less than that via the Scale...(see p.p.s. below!) The whole thing could be cropped to show a suitable area around just the named features, but zooming the map has already made pre-existing elements start to break up. I could fix that, but then there's also the anachronous grey boundary line for the Western Cape province, and that would be beyond me… Otherwise I have my fingers crossed that you think it's ok. TTFN
Nortonius (
talk)
11:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Heyyyyy! I only just noticed you got rid of those mooring blocks, and did some more cleaning up! Yay! :o) p.p.s I just uploaded another version of said map with a more betterer Scale…
Hey, look! I've just found this! I shall read it ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 08:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm finding quite a lot of useful stuff in there; the only challenge I really have is in working out how to get the refs working the same way you have them. If there's a page you can point me to which explains exactly how to do the sort you;re doing, in "strings of refs", kinda thing, style of kidney ... then I can suss that out and get all the stuff working in the same format. I have a named ref <ref name=IzikoArchive/>, but have no idea how that fits in with the style of citations you're doing. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I'll let you play with tidying up the refs as necessary, while I take a look at that link you gave me earlier ;P And I always thought that the poop deck was where the ship's cat had its litter box ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 17:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
MMMMeeeee tooooooo! Btw, I was about to start fiddling with the Meermin again, but I wonder what you think of this: earlier, there were few Dutch/VOC terms like "Constapelskamer" in the article, and it seemed reasonable to include them, with an explanatory word or two; but now we've got quite a few, and I'm getting a sense that this brings a new degree of ?unavoidable wordiness. This might be a problem if it goes up for FA...? I thought that perhaps these VOC terms could be relegated to footnotes, with only straightforward English in the article, and wikilinks where appropriate; but that would be sort of shifting the problem to the footnotes, rather than fixing it. How about a single explanatory footnote for all VOC terms when we first encounter e.g. "supercargo", or anything striking that might come earlier, in a form something like
n. ^ The sources use 18th century Dutch "Commies" for "supercargo".ref Other such terms are "Constapelskamer" for "gunroom";ref "Scheepsmonkeynuts" for "ship's peanuts";ref etc.
— Hmm?
Then the footnote could be named something like "|name=VOCterms". Any good? Or should I just concentrate on the monkey nuts? Nortonius ( talk) 10:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
As I said to someone else who asked for help with an article on my talk page, I think it's crucial to get the lead right. I find it to be a bit fragmentary, especially at the beginning, so my question to you is are you happy for me to rewrite or would you prefer me simply to make suggestions as to how you could rewrite? Malleus Fatuorum 23:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
You may have the honours of putting that in! (And don't say I never give you anything ... ;P ) I've dropped a note on the article talk page that there's a load here; actually I'm far more comfortable on my own talk, where I don't have to remember to be "more encyclopaedically formal" and can have a giggle from time to time. They may join us over here, if they wish. But I'll keep an eye on the "proper place", as well. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
And I found your user page interesting too. Hello...
I agree very much with what you say on Jimbo's page, starting with your observation that Wikipedia is a sort of honey trap for HFA. I've often suspected that too.
At the risk of stating the obvious, Wikipedia is also likely to attract a disproportionate number of editors who, for one reason or another (related maybe to personality, geography, disability, unemployment, age or whatever) are, whether through necessity or choice, a bit erm... socially isolated. You'd have thought we'd be extra predisposed to be considerate to one another. But that's not always so.
Like you, I'm concerned by the tendency for disturbing aggro or insulting behaviour on certain types of WP discussions, such as RfCs. The causes are likely multifactorial, including the opt-in character of RfCs which encourages strong opinions, as well their almost parliamentary support/oppose format which seems to foster polarization. And of course there's the well known issue of talking via a screen rather than face to face. I think your points about the likely distribution of the Wikipedia community across the autism spectrum may be another relevant factor.
My own hunch is that some good input from social psychologist/s could perhaps help make Wikipedia processes, literally, more friendly.
See you around. Best, MistyMorn ( talk) 16:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
I scored a 31. Oops! Montanabw (talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I was trying to post here but got into a fatal edit conflict because the discussion had already been closed:
2c from a passer by, MistyMorn ( talk) 11:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
... the smell of real, proper, old-fashioned furniture polish. Turpentine'n'beeswax'n'stuff. The K-series Steinway next to me got a whole heap of lovin' today (as did anything else I could play with, with my new toy ... polish-buffer attachment for power drill :D). It glows; it gleams; it does not look like something "born" in 1897. And my grandmother's housekeepr would never recognise the old kitchen chairs ... [yes, Pesky has been obsessive-compulsively doing housework again] Pesky ( talk) 18:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky. I'm still going over all the JLAN stuff, trying to work out what the best solution would be - mildly difficult because I know so little about horses! I know a little about pigs though, so I've been following the Large Black saga and much of my thought processes are based on that, along with my wiki-knowledge. Now, I see you mention JLAN in relation to OR, UNDUE or POV information to articles. I haven't seen a lot of evidence of him adding any, though I've seen him complain about the POV, especially American POV. Is this the sort of thing you're talking about? The last thing I want to see here is "silencing of the opposition" WormTT · ( talk) 09:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
One of the other real challenges is that he just often won;t let things go; having done the argument about measurements being in hands, and lost it, he then tried it again in at least one other place (and very possibly more); I think one of them was on an article up for GA or FA. He also started edit-warring on a GA, and then put it up for review saying that it was unstable, when actually the only person making it unstable was really himself. I think he particularly notices articles that are in sensitive places, like GA, FA, TFA, etc., and goes in to work on those ones, without really considering what consensuses have been arrived at in the past about them, and it tends to just derail what has until then been a pretty stable article.
It's a very sad saga, really; I'm not sure how it could be dealt with other than asking him to join one or more other WikiProjects, taking with him the lessons he's (hopefully) learned about how his editing style affects others, and starting with a clean slate and a fresh batch of editors who haven't yet had any problems with him. That may work; on the other hand, it's possible that he may find the same problems elsewhere. I really think that he doesn't know that he comes across as bullying other editors, and heavy-handed. Please ask Dana, Montana, Ealdgyth and others for more specifics; as I say, I'm just off-the-top-of-the-head remembering things I've seen happening, as I've been specifically avoiding stressy areas wherever possible. I hope this info is helpful. Probably going through JLAN's talk page history would give you quite a bit more, from several other editors who've also found him to be heavy-handed. I hope he can find another area within Wikipedia where he'll be happy, and settle well, but I have a nasty feeling that if he stays in WP:EQUINE other editors who have contributed far more, and at extremely high standards, will see no option but to leave Equine, and possibly quit Wikipedia altogether. I wish I could be more hopeful, but I really think he's burned his bridges a bit. Pesky ( talk) 14:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, sadly, that happens when an editor hasn't had interactions with loads and loads of others; most people on the dramah board don't do any homework and just pass snap, knee-jerk, off-the-cuff judgments on what's immediately apparent or has actually been specifically brought to their attention at the time. And an opponent who cherry-picks through a year's-worth of diffs to find all the ones which highlight on;ly one aspect of the case are always going to cause problems. I think all we can do is just take it as read that the vast majority of the dramah-board regulars are going to be less than thorough before declaiming their own wossnames. Having said that, WTT (in my experience) is both thorough and fair to a level beyond that of many others I've met here, and always means well and tries to do his best. But standing up to a bully is never easy, as sometimes the only language they understand is their own. AN/I is a minefield. Pesky ( talk) 14:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Here. But as soon as I'd posted I realised that I'd got it arse about face in the edit summary. How I sometimes wish we could edit the edit summaries! Malleus Fatuorum 19:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
And heh! what did you think of ArbCom's genius idea that nobody's allowed to contribute to a discussion any more unless their contribution directly improves it? [Pesky ROFLMFAO] It's gonna get very, very quiet around here ... unless we all just ignore ArbCom's "reminder". Pesky ( talk) 19:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
My nearly-23-year-old youngest offspring has just said "I wish I was young again!" Pesky ( talk) 18:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I was in Asda earlier this evening, and I went through one of their self-service checkouts, which I love. As you may know, your paper change comes out one orifice and your coin change another. I collected my fiver from one orifice but forgot about the other. As I walked away from the checkout the (female) operator shouted to me "Love, have you forgotten your change?" Now, I've seen discussions elsewhere here suggesting that some might be upset by such apparent intimacy, but that's just the way people talk oop north, and I'd have been mortified if she'd been forced to say something like "excuse me sir, but have you forgotten your change?" How on Earth can we begin to define what's civil and what isn't? Malleus Fatuorum 03:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Hey, Ooh Bunnies! Long time no see! You're absolutely right, Malleus isn't a bully, nor is he mean. And I've been having to think how best to handle a situation with someone who really is a bully, though they almost certainly can't see it and almost equally certainly don't intend to be bullying. Polite-language bullying is far worse, in my opinion, than blunt-language non-bullying. Workplaces? Yes, you're right there, too. Some of the shittiest, meanest, nastiest behaviour I've ever encountered has been in workplaces. For the people who say "Treat it like a workplace," when they mean "Be really nice and civil", all I can say is that I envy them their workplaces! Pesky ( talk) 06:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
"Love, have you forgotten your change?" would be accepted as formal discourse in many parts of the south, where more informal responses might include "Is that yours, my lover?" Geometry guy 00:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Stupidly fragile today, please bear with me! I had to get other half to go and fetch morphine dose into the bedroom for me and "feed" it to me this morning, as I couldn't even get out of bed to go and get it. Pain level is now tolerable, but morphine-level increases mental fuzziness, so it's likely that I won't express myself perhaps as clearly as usual, even. Pesky ( talk) 10:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi. Thanks for your kind message and the link to your excellent essay. You're right: experienced editors, with a track record of producing quality content, should be role models of the sort of behavior that makes Wikipedia a more enjoyable experience and a better functioning workspace. I've been coming to see the value in striving for that, though I'm very much still a work in progress. Hearing from someone as thoughtful and nice as you is a real help, and I appreciate it. Regards, DocKino ( talk) 12:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
User:Cyberpower678 is incredibly stressed-out at the moment with dealing with toolserver, bots, and so on. It's not anything I know anything about, but if any of my stalkers would like to wander over to Cyberpower's talk page and see if they can offer any help, moral support, anything at all, or would like to learn anything about bot-working as an apprentice, I really think it would be very much appreciated. I think CP feels very alone at the moment, and a friend or two would make an enormous difference. Pesky ( talk) 07:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Imagine a pre-tanks battlefield. Imagine the row of cannons, quiet now, with the gunners all lying on the ground, dead. Imagine a solitary man, breeched, booted and spurred, standing in front of the row of cannon, shading his eyes with his hands and looking around. What is he saying?
"My battery's dead, and I can't find my charger." Pesky ( talk) 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky, hope you're ok! Malleus has asked if you have an opinion about Talk:Meermin (VOC ship)/GA1: he says that there's still more in the article about the mutiny than about the ship, though I've done a bit to redress that, and wondered if you might like to comment. Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 01:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm seeing a relatively new user, User:Hghyux, start doing NPP today and doing lots of mistakes. I'm not in a position to spend time helping out and Kudpung is on vacation, so I thought I'd bug you. Could you help out or know somebody to help out. Bgwhite ( talk) 02:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Mrmatiko, I don't want to presume too much about how Chzz is feeling, in case I've got it completely wrong ... but if it were me, I would be feeling as though I've been told that if I'm nice, I'll be allowed to come back as the lowest of the low, doing unpaid and undervalued work, often carrying several people's share of the work at any one time, to the best of my ability, and only if I can show "proper deference" to overlords that I feel have belittled, humiliated, and totally misunderstood me. And I might be given a sweetie if I don't complain too much. I can't think why anyone would want to drop themselves into servility, having tried to make a point of some kind about cabalism-or-whatever, under the same people and system that they wanted to improve in the first place. I can't think what to compare it to, really. If you're not there, people can't go on and on rubbing your already-sore nose in it, I suppose. But then I'm riddled with pain and morphine, and a bit "down"; all Real Life stuff interfering with my abilities to think and communicate clearly. Pesky ( talk) 09:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Information is not Knowledge
Knowledge is not Wisdom
Wisdom is not Truth
Truth is not Beauty
Beauty is not Love
Love is not Music
Music is THE BEST
Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz, which is extinct.
Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short, cloth, neck ornament, currently in resurgence.
— Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage, Act III
Aye to that– though, I think "principles" are germane to Chzz's absence from WP. Must be time I had more tea! ;o) Nortonius ( talk) 16:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Btw ... just saw the "hugs" post .. "gampa" is always up for grannie hugs. :-) ... — Ched : ? 22:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
(>**)><(**<) Pesky ( talk) 22:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Re comment on NYB page. I once worked with a new to the group woman on a tech project where we had separate but overlapping responsibilities. We were both strong willed and particular about how things when done, but always wanted to be seen as professional. Things slowly built up for about a week until we lost it and just started screaming at each other -- at which point we came to the realization I didn't care about her pet peeve things and she didn't care about my pet peeve things so we could (and did) work quite well together. But -- and this is the important part in the context of Wikipedia -- this only achievable after a relationship has been established. Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble.
PS: updated your link ;) Nobody Ent 19:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Re Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble. Yes, another communication issue common to many internet forum environments where participants know they're unlikely to have to engage in real-world relations? Meaning that conflict kicks in straight off before any meaningful working relationship has had time and space to develop. — MistyMorn ( talk) 10:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
This remark by Malleus is utterly reprehensible. How can he do this to you? I thought you were his best mate. Bgwhite ( talk) 09:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Thought I'd better let you know– it might've been a bit rash of me, sticking my head up above the bracken like that, but...! Hope you're ok...? Nortonius ( talk) 10:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
When tagging a page with {{ copyvio}} please remember to also list it at WP:CP as described in the instructions in the template. The copyvio at The Evil One (film) has only jsut be dealt with as those that deal with copyvios at WP:CP were unaware of it. A bot would normally automatically list anything that was not listed but this was down for several months and it's best it is not relied upon. Dpmuk ( talk) 04:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I think the Skeptic will be fine, he's just a bright example of why wikipedia policy sucks so much. I think I read somewhere that Good faith is not policy, it's just some essay garbage. Result of the lack of policy in that area equates to inevitable lack of wikipedia.
It's also lovely to see how well ANI actually works, where people accuse him of poetry on his userpage. I think it's a valid point, we should all be on the lookout for poetry on userpages. Be vigilant !
Anyhow, I have a read about the HFA stuff, it's interesting. Personally I have a very very different ability for perspectives and a shortcoming. It's an interesting topic you have going. Penyulap talk 10:31, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
[A Pesky original] Pesky ( talk) 21:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky, it feels like it's been a while! :o) While I don't want to poke fun at anyone in particular (I live in a glass house! ;op ), I wondered if you might like to consider these
[6]
[7] for your selection of "Funny Things"! ;o) While I'm here, you may have noticed that I've been fiddling with
History of the horse in Britain lately (while I think about avoid thinking about nominating either
Meermin slave mutiny or
Reculver as an FAC). I hope the horse article's improving, though like everything on WP I ain't finished yet! Hope you're ok. :o)
Nortonius (
talk)
14:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky, how's things? I thought I'd drop by to say I think I've broadly done what I can with
History of the horse in Britain, but for sorting out some of the refs, which I think needs doing, and any irresistible tweaks I might spot! Main thing is, I noticed that the section "19th and 20th centuries" currently ends with World War I, and I think filling that gap is a job for someone else– not necessarily you obv, I just mean not me! :o) About refs, one in particular is bothering me: I'm not sure we can use
this, it doesn't look like a RS to me, unless anyone knows any better?(nvm, hopefully
I've sorted that one now!) There may be others, that's just one I've stopped at for now. Hope you're ok!
Nortonius (
talk)
19:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC) p.s. Those refs & citations are proving tricky, I'm having to go through them with a
fine toothcomb (lol), pretty much one-by-one– also I mentioned a need for more info on British horses in 19th & 20th centuries, add to that horses in Wales & Scotland (esp. Roman & early medieval times), the article feels very Anglo-centric at times; and I've left a few hidden messages saying "ref please!" Just keeping you up to date, fiddling with those refs is keeping me from getting too bored, hope you're feeling a bit better today.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
PS, thanks for the reply on the Arb board, thought I'd reply here to save clutter as its getting a little tangenital. Didnt know much of that, as you say its interesting and I suspect youre right in all you say. The OED makes clear the root words are from the Germanic and Swedish (viking) languages from which English is partly derived, so while it makes sense to say the C word might have originally had the harsh closed off quality in English (possibly reflecting sexist attitudes at the time), its also reasonable to say its roots had a more fitting word sound. FeydHuxtable ( talk) 14:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Rediculously rediculous indeed pesky, those Germanic infuences have a lot to answer for!
As Spengler tells it, in the 10th century, when Western Civilisation was born on the fields of Germany and France, God the Father was felt as Force itself. Eternal , grand, sacred causality: unconceiveable in any form comprehensible to the human eye. Jesus too was felt by us common people to be almost hopelessly out of reach , and so much of the desire of our young soul to bow itself in humility before the divine found its expression in the figure of the Virgin. At the centre of much early Gothic art, she was a Light figure, garbed in white blue & gold, surrounded by celestial hosts. Peterus Damiani and Bernard of Clarivaus helped establish her pan–European cult. Around her gathered countless legends , beliefs and new customs. The Angelic greeting, The Ave Maria, among the Dominicans the crown of roses ; among the Franciscans the festival of the Visitation. Here among the Benedictines arose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception – which elevated her above mortality into the world of light.
But this world of purity, light and utter beauty of soul would have been impossible without its dark counter-part. A foe that breeds woe - seduces, tricks, corrupts – the realm of the devil. Pervading the whole of creation, it was everywhere, laying in ambush for the unwary. A countless army of goblins , wraiths , werewolves and witches. In dark moments an appalling fear weighs on man – every moment he may stumble into the abyss.
Life was a ceaseless and desperate conflict with the devil. The Church Triumphant of angles and saints in their glory looked down from on high. Mary was the tender protectoress and intercessor with God to whose bossom the troubled soul could flee for comfort. .
Providing relief from this terrible dread was the prime sacrament of Contrition. The certainty in the power of absolution invested in the priests brought a blissful happiness which is now scarcely imaginabl .
Its impossible to exaggerate the grandeur of this forceful, insistent picture - or the depth of sincerity with which it was believed.
Both the Mary-myths and the Devil-myth were not merely imagined but felt as vital actualities that shook men and woman to their inner most beings. They were believed in with a faith which felt the very notion of proof as a kind of blasphemy.
But when Luther destroyed the common peoples faith with his rediculous reformation, many lost all believe in the power of absolution. Along with the inward bliss of aquital and the certainty of salvation in the next life. With it faded almost all the Mary world of light. But the fear of devil and his witches remained, and much of the gynophobia arose from this. Another reason for the double standards regarding male and female parts...
PS - still havent worked out what the extra a in refined was for? Was it to create a rime with caned? And please let me know if you think I deserve a horse whipping for filling your talk page with this rediculous religous ramble :-) FeydHuxtable ( talk) 17:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
When the term 'Civility Police' is used, I think it is an attempt to separate those labelled CP from the rest of the crowd, the community. Like we are stick wielding, gun toting, High-minders with antennae ears and pea sized brains just waiting to stomp on the first editor that says "darn!" When the term Neighbor is used we are one of the members of the community, entitled to speak up. In fact, expected to speak up. My ears are getting a bit waxy and need a good cleaning. TRA!--- Buster Seven Talk 14:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I have a label too. When I got it it was self-stick. I tried velcro but that didnt work. Now I have a patch, sewn onto my breast pocket. Im proud of it. I dont go out on partol. But if something happens right in front of me, Ive made a personal committment to respond. What little voice I have is as a member of the large peer group called Wikipedia Editors (WE). WE dont always have a meeting of the minds, which is understandable since there are ___,000 members. But, WE are everywhere in WikiLand. There is not a corner or a back-room that doesnt contain at least one of us. And, most of us are silent when we see something uncomfortable. Sidebar: When I was 10, my uncle gave me a horse...not really but I was 10. What did I know about horse ownership. He was an enormous Belgian Clydsdale workhorse named Luc. I "owned" him for a summer vacation. He taught me everything there was to know about being the strongest living thing you can imagine while at the same time being the most gentle creature that ever has lived. Endsidebar. To the best of my recollection I have never sworn at or cursed any of my fellow editors...ever..no matter what the level of provocation might be. I have never brought up a fellow member on "charges" at any of the resources available. I also have no stick or gun and I dont aspire to get ever them. I like to live in a peaceful environment and, at best, remind adjacent editors when that peace is threatened. Another Sidebar: Syringing sounds like it might be painful. But many times the pain is only momentary. And relief is so pleasant. TRA!--- Buster Seven Talk 17:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
To your knowledge has there ever been a broad based discussion about editors being citizens. Maybe not as an end in itself (too many passports, documentation, customs agents,etc.) but as the genesis of a discussion about solutions. The Civility enforcemnet sites clearly show that we are two (or more) countries separated by a common language. Now its obvious that out mutual language allows us to come together, but we bring along with us all our cultural baggage. And, as we see, its the cultural baggage that, sometimes, causes dysfunction. The cultures that people live in around the world took generations to form...building, nurturing, teaching, even scolding. Maybe that is at the heart our polarized civility situation?. As a community we are very young. We don't hold/see/understand corrections as positives: we hold them as criticisms. We don't see the helping hand: we only see the finger pointing. Our culture at WP is still being formed (some would say we don't have a culture) One thing I learned early in life is "How and where do you plug into The Conversation." Whether its about politics or civility at a website or porn or ecology, etc etc. There is always a conversation. The how, what, where, and why of plugging in defines us...especially here in WikiWorld. I think we are plugged into a similar sockets. I'm starting to rant so I'll stop. TRA!... Buster Seven Talk 15:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
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Not an area I know enough about.
Pesky (
talk …
stalk!)
11:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
[1] I was told earlier today that my TFA is not of "main page quality". How am I expected to react to that? Malleus Fatuorum 21:07, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This contribution [2] is inappropriate and beyond the norms of good faith discussion. I'm not a party to the case, and I'd appreciate it if you would desist from running to the evidence page with some kind of trumped up complaint over my not buying your cultural relativity argument. I'm going to reorganize my contributions to that page, because by participating there I am consenting to a discussion, not to being hauled before Arbcom as evidence. - Wikidemon ( talk) 17:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
You apparently just chose not to believe me when I said I was genuinely offended.
And now you're calling it "trumped up".
If the Arbs think it's not relevant as a comparison of the different ways in which incivility is perceived, then they can choose to ignore it, but I think it's actually a good example.
I'm just sorry that it ended up being one. :o( I hope you can understand why I'd rather leave it up to the Arbs to ignore if they don't think it's relevant to the question of civility. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 17:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
The way it came across, on-screen was that you found it implausible that the speaker (and by extension, all of us Brit speakers saying the same thing) didn't know how offensive it was; that the word was offensive in that sexist, misogynistic way. (I'm trying to work my way around this explanation, if I get it right, you'll understand it.)
I was offended because what I understood from that was that you didn't believe we didn't know that elsewhere it had the extra-offense of being sexist, too, despite it having been said over and over. That was why I was offended - because of your apparent disbelief in what we were all saying. What happened next was that Dave Dial put up a very snarky, sarcastic post; following that, from my angle of vision, was that I was then scoffed at for having been offended.
And then disbelieved, again, about having been offended. I'm trying to make a real effort to understand the way you express yourself, because I'd like to think that you don't mean stuff the way it comes across. Things like "You are indeed doing something ridiculous and unwarranted, taking offense over something that isn't there."
Well, it was there, if you read it that way. From my point of view it was there; from yours it wasn't. Implausible that we didn't know how (sexist, misogynistic) offensive it was.
I don't know whether perhaps you just use words differently from the way I do, but a lot of the words you choose (like "claimed", "supposedly offended", and so on) have strong connotations of "this person is lying about this - they are pretending to have been offended". So, now that you're aware of that, wouldn't you personally be offended if someone had implied that you were only pretending to have been offended? I'm sure you would.
I wish I could hear your tone of voice and see your body language when I read your words. The words themselves, purely black-on-white, come across as scathing, contemptuous, belittling. Did you mean them to be? If not, then I'm sorry we've misunderstood each other.
I can't see how to use that conversation - which was such a good example, the way I saw it, of someone having been genuinely offended by something, saying so, then offended again, and scoffed at - as an illustration of the differing views on "what is incivility", without referring to the conversation. I'll certainly consider striking it out of evidence, with the comment that it arose from no-fault-either-way misunderstanding, if that will really make you happier. I would like to make sure, though, that you really do understand what there was to be offended by - by looking at it the way it came out, not just the way you meant it. And if you could avoid using words which carry the implication that you don't believe what people are saying, then people are much less likely to be offended by apparent assumptions of bad faith. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 18:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I've removed that; I was pretty sure, reading through your other posts, that we must have been getting our wires totally crossed there somewhere, as you seemed like a perfectly rational person everywhere else!
I'm really glad we finally managed to iron out the wrinkles in that one, it was getting to feel a bit surreal, lol! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 18:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I personally think that all of the above is a classic example of how much unrecognized sexism exists on WP, especially where there is also a generational divide. We "crones" were the "witches" of times past, attacked viciously for no more than seeing and speaking the truth. And the vitriol we encounter now when we but speak the truth would make us, if they could, be burned for witchcraft on WP today, wouldn't we? (Kim V just "retired" again over yet another wiki-war, FYI, I'd make book on when she returns, though -- it's an addiction, this! ) Montanabw (talk) 03:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Today is very much a morphine-day, so please excuse any minor glitches in judgment etc. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Query: Is Jimbo's quotation linked in the evidence section of the civility case? I did a text search for "Jimbo" in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility_enforcement/Evidence without a result. I have been depressing myself reading the civility case and came across your "'RfA is a horrible and broken process.' Jimbo" quotation via this then case history (so I ended up depressing myself more). Point is, the whole civility case started at RfA did it not? If we can find the Jimbo quote and given supporting context it should, in my opinion, be part of the evidence (top level acknowledgement supporting the motivation for MF's frustrations at that venue) -- Senra ( talk) 16:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
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A cup 'o' tea; hope you get better soon. Cheers, HurricaneFan 25 16:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC) |
Buster7 has given you some Nice Koekjes which promote fellowship, goodwill and WikiLove. Hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the good flavor of Nice Koekjes around Wiki World by giving someone else one. Maybe to a friend or, better yet, to someone you have had disagreements with in the past. Nice Koekjes are very tasty and have been known to be so NICE, they will even bake themselves. Enjoy!
[scrunch, scrunch, scrunch ....] Mmmmmm, fank yew! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 05:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
I was not aware of any of the events described by you here. My goodness, Pesky. I do not have the words to say how bad I feel about a community that could treat anyone in the unjust way you described. It seems to me that too many Wikipedia community postings suffer from a ditto mentality. I entirely agree with you, that every editor should judge each case themselves before embarking on a "me too" response. Please accept this small token as a reminder that at least one other editor feels as you do. If any lurkers have any doubt about what I mean above, read the case in its entirety, including all diffs!
Senra (
talk)
17:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Aaaahh, but have two giant real-life cats, as well as one standard moggy, and Bryn (four feet long, nose-tip to tail-tip, and 10KG) likes nothing better than to snuggle up alongside me on the bed whenever he can. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 16:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
You've got one ;) WormTT · ( talk) 15:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
[sigh]. Lots of painz, lots of morphinez. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:56, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
One of life's great joys and no-cost fun things ... walking across frozen, crunchy grass, with bare feet :o) amazing sensation; some people don't know what they're missing when they have their feet enclosed in footwear all the time. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 19:57, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Editors can not be goaded into an aggressive response. No matter what the other editor does or says or types, there is no acceptable Pavlovian response that allows aggression. Whatever the new policy states, it should not even hint that, under certain conditions, it is OK to use words that are unexceptable in most every social setting. Hope your health issues get resolved. §:~).. Buster Seven Talk 22:30, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! I was reading Nozdref's talk page and suddenly see your note on Reflinks. I'll use this method.
Kavas (
talk)
21:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
As indicated here, both the evidence and the workshop pages and their respective talk pages are closed. Cheers. Salvio Let's talk about it! 14:00, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
you are a howl girl. :) — Ched : ? 14:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
No need to reply to my comment at MF's page (or on mine), he just lost the project another editor/admin. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 10:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm taking a break, Pesky. Dunno how long it will be. Don't let the Wikiwolves snap at your ankles too much! Cheers,
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk)
10:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
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Spread the Christmas cheer by adding {{ subst:Xmas3}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
My oldest is 30 today! Seems like yesterday, the day he was born. Being rushed full-pelt along the hospital corridor, on a trolley, with the anaesthetist pumping the gunge into me on the run, and the consultant (bless her!) yelling "Get out of the fucking way!" to people in the doorway ... emergency C-section! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 10:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
re [4]. We're going about it all wrong. Editors calmly discussing differing opinions doesn't attract any attention. You should revert me with a snarky comment with an innuendo insult, I'll revert you with a sexist, ageist, and/or nationalistic insult. Next we go to ANI and sling mud at each other, and then we'll get some other editors contributing to the content discussion. Nobody Ent 14:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I thing you meant "think", not "thing" here [5] Nobody Ent 00:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
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The article about the Alexander technique may appeal to you, given your impulses to do justice, practice mercy, and walk humbly. It also concerns chronic back-pain and British health care. Kiefer. Wolfowitz 15:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Pesky, I would be happy to supply that evidence. I have found several pages that use DO to describe physicians with this qualification including pages from: DO professional organizations, government pages, peer-reviewed research from academic journals (government pages and peer-reviewed journals are noteworthy to address the objection brought up that the term DO was colloquial and not suitable as a formal word but I have found it is used in formal arenas as mentioned). Where would it be best for me to supply the evidence in the form of links? Here or on your talk page or a different page? As for literaturegeek's response, I do accept the premise of wikipedia consensus but I do not believe wikipedia consensus has been achieved yet since we are still in the phase of presenting arguments/evidence to attempt to persuade other editors and work toward consensus building not to mention only a few of us have even participated in this debate at all though I do not know if a certain amount of people need to participate in a debate to achieve consensus or not. Anyway, please let me know where you would like me to present evidence of my claims and I will do so. I left this response on the dispute resolution noticeboard page as well but I wanted to make sure you could see it since I was primarily addressing your response. DoctorK88 ( talk) 20:13, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Hello Pesky, I was looking through some old stuff earlier and was shocked and appalled to see that, in April last year, I'd told Chzz that I'd have a look at History of the horse in Britain "some time soonish", but had forgotten all about it! All I managed to do was to try passing the buck (surely a stallion, in this context!) to Ealdgyth... Really sorry, real life excuses etc. I see that the History of the horse in Britain is now a GA, so I'm a bit late (typical British understatement) – I do tend to plough my own furrow in WP, but if there's anything similar I can do to make up for it, feel free to ask me directly, though I be not worthy etc... Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Ah good, thanks! Yes, another pic would be good, at the moment I'm holding out for the one in that 18th century Dutch book - if we get that, I'd stick it in the infobox and move the painting back where it was. [sticks head tentatively above the parapet, wondering if he's up for it] Would you like me to have a go at emailing the Greenwich museum library for it? One can only try... About the dates, great, I'll work that into the article. By the way, I haven't spotted anything yet about who the ship was originally built for, any idea? Was it the VOC? Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 14:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Brit library - see Wikipedia:GLAM/BL, speak to Fæ ( talk · contribs) Chzz ► 09:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
“The VOC stopped using hoekers towards the end of the 17th century,” explains Jaco Boshoff, maritime archaeologist at Iziko Museums of Cape Town. “But they constructed some periodically mainly for use at their colonies as multi-purpose vessels.” He says four hoekers were constructed in the second half of the 18th century for the Cape service ... “In fact the request for a new vessel from the government at the Cape in 1759 to their masters in Holland mentions the slave trade with Madagascar as one of the main functions for the new vessel.” ref
Point me at the journal article, and I'll see what other little nuggets of info I can dig out from it (if any). I'm still waiting for news of Meermin actually being identified, and archaeological work done one her. I have her on a Google news alert – so I'll get pinged the minute she hits the news! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
You carry on playing with text and refs, and I'll carry on playing with the picture. I thin Alexander's full thesis / theses was / were available on scientific commons, or something like that, can't remember exactly, off the top of my head. JSTOR or Wiley may have it, as well. I always find laughing at my OCD is one of the best ways to deal with it – at least acknowledging it is supposed to be a good step! Speaking of which, if you enjoy the same situation, I haz a NPOV version of the thing, and a userbox ({{User:ThatPeskyCommoner/OCDUserbox}} ) which you are welcome to share. Back to that picture ... the lower sections of the rigging are still looking a bit "heavy", to my eye ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Moominland... I never understood it all, myself! Probably too late now... The "awful greenish eyesore" is the Amsterdam Silence Museum, I expect you noticed that - for shame! When the replica ship is so magnificent, and something to so be proud of (unlike the history of the Meermin). I expect you've also noticed that pennants look to have been flown from the mast-tops, rather than flags, e.g. in the painting of 1792. Incidentally, you just might want to have a look at this site, which has lots of ship pictures on this page, though the best (and first) one's had its mast-tops cropped off [gah!]– actually, looking closely at the stern of the ship in the painting of 1792, I'd have thought it's the Noord-Holland, described here, if the file description didn't say it was the Noord-Nieuwland...? The intertubes can be a joy sometimes, but a right pest at others...! Nortonius ( talk) 18:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Pretty pics :o) Pages look so much better with a few pics ...
I think she took quite a while to break up, once she grounded. They auctioned stuff from her for about a week, and then just let her lie. The April date is possibly just her "registered date of destruction" Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 08:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I have now removed the flags and the mooring posts ... heh! OCD rules OK! Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 10:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
From the pic on the left to the pic on the right! You may all express you admiration here ;P Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
De hoeker was eigenlijk een vissersvaartuig (vandaar de naam omdat het met hoekwant viste), maar werd ook wel voor de koopvaardij gebruikt. In 1664 besloot de VOC dit schip in haar vloot op te nemen. De Kamer van Delft kocht vier schepen. De Rotterdamse Kamer was de eerste die in 1667 de bouw van een serie hoekers startte. Al na 1670 verdwenen de hoekers weer uit de schepenlijsten van de VOC. ... De meeste hoekers waren 80 voet lang en 20 voet breed en hadden een holte van 11 voet. De hoeker had een brede boeg en achtersteven. Zij hadden een grote en een bezaansmast met vierkante zeilen. De grotere hoekers hadden ook nog een fokkemast, zoals de iets kleinere fluiten. Het zeil van de bezaansmast was dan vervangen door een driehoekig Latijns zeil. Na 1670 werd nog slechts af en toe een hoeker gebouwd, zoals in 1695. Die was groter dan de andere: 90 voet en een duim lang, 23 voet en zes duim breed en een holte van 11 voet en 10,5 duim. ref, VOCsite
Translates approximately to this: "The hooker / hoeker was actually a fishing vessel (hence the name as fishing was done with hooks) but was also used as a merchant ship. In 1664 The VOC decided to include this type of ship in its fleet. The Delft Chamber built four ships. The Rotterdam Chamber was the first to build a series of hoekers starting in 1667. After 1670 there were no more hoekers in the VOC's ship lists. … Most hoekers were 80 feet (voet, actually) long and 20 feet (voet) wide and had a hole (cargo door?) of 11 feet. The hoeker had a wide bow and stern. They had a great mast and a mizzen mast with square sails. The larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles. The mizzen mast sail was replaced with a triangular lateen sail. After 1670, only an occasional hoeker was built, as in 1695. That was bigger than the others: 90 feet (voet) and one inch long, 23 feet (voet) 6 ins wide, with a depth of 11 feet (voet) 10.5 inches."
Thing is, most hoekers were pine built, but Meermin was an oak-built ship, so would have been proportionately heavier for her dimensions than the standard pine-built ones (oak is significantly heaver than pine). I wonder if the VOC site have her burthen incorrect? Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 14:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes I share your anticipation of incredible coolness! XD I only hope he's up for it... I hadn't thought to mention the saga and your thinking behind it, despite my admiration, does that make me a selfish oaf?!I'll only accept answers to that question from Pesky! No problem, superb in fact! But, that could ultimately mean disclosing who you are IRL to Mr Boshoff at least, as well as who I am, and, once it's out there, who knows? Unless I were forever to be your go-between in this ( Banksy? Who he?!), that is, and obviously I can stress in diplomatic terms that confidentiality would be "required"...?
About those bloomin' "whistles", though– I've just spotted that the Dutch quotation from VOCsite above says "zoals de iets kleinere fluiten". That sentence doesn't say that the "larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles"– it just means that the "larger hoekers also had a fore-mast, as in the slightly smaller fluyts"! Phew, what a palaver– sorry, and thank gawd I noticed that before asking Mr Boshoff! :o) Nortonius ( talk) 18:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. I'm holding off emailing Mr Boshoff until I'm certain-sure you've seen my comments in the preceding para about potential disclosure, let me know! I've absolutely 0 intention to be patronising here, I know you're a "grown-up" and want me to email– it's just that I really don't want to be responsible for setting this train in motion without an explicit "go", in a re-assuring response to my scaredy-cat reservations about possible outcomes! I could post a "proposed email" in a sandbox if you like, suitably redacted of course...? :o)
(If I may!) Pesky, I'm wondering what you might make of this: in Hogerzeil, S. & Richardson, D. (2007), "Slave Purchasing Strategies and Shipboard Mortality: Day-to-Day Evidence from the Dutch African Trade, 1751–1797", The Journal of Economic History, vol. 67, p. 163, n. 7, it says:
[According to] one of the [Dutch Middelburgsche Commercie Compagnie's] captain's logs… 13 [cheques]… had been entrusted to a certain captain Martynus Bruijne Hoogerzeyl of the ship De Meermin, for transport from Paramaribo [now in Suriname, in South America] to Middelburg [capital of Zeeland province, south-west Netherlands. Another log book entry] identified Martynus as captain of De Meermin, arriving in Paramaribo [on 24 February 1765] with 328 slaves from Angola.
A year earlier, surely a different Dutch ship– "De Meermin", not just "Meermin"– and in different places, but what a strange coincidence! Nortonius ( talk) 09:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Op 27 januari 1761 voer op haar eerste reis de 'Meermin' uit vanaf Texel. Het schip bereikte op 15 juni daarop Kaap de Goede Hoop. Zij bleef dienst doen aan de Kaap tot 9 april 1766 toen het schip aan de grond liep en verging.
[On January 27, 1761 on her maiden voyage the 'Meermin' departed from Texel. The ship reached the Cape of Good Hope on June 15. She continued service on the Cape until April 9, 1766 when the ship ran aground and sank.]
So that's pretty sure; she never left the Cape service. Shal we set up our own private detective agency after we've written Meermin –The Musical ? ;P
Oooh, and yes, I noticed the "Silence Musem" as well – funnier thing is that our childhood / family nickname for the London Science Museum was also the Silence Museum! Of course it's changed now; they like kids to make a noise and have fun playing with things. Much better! My grandmother's huge mansion flat was five minutes' walk from Kensington Gardens, and my MI5 aunt took us around the museums occasionally. Of course, that was in the sixties ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Ah, glad you like it! :o) I had a go at squeezing a bit more clarity out of the image, but only managed to make the original caption more legible, so I've left it alone– I wonder if it could be done, though...? ;op Also, I've
just swapped the map for one wot I made earlier, comparatively a close-up, with locations of– well, you'll see. Any good? The software I used is pre-2003 vintage, so "ATLANTIC OCEAN" is poorly rendered, and I do believe that the Scale has somehow become stretched– I made Stellenbosch to be about 91 miles from Struisbaai, but it looks much less than that via the Scale...(see p.p.s. below!) The whole thing could be cropped to show a suitable area around just the named features, but zooming the map has already made pre-existing elements start to break up. I could fix that, but then there's also the anachronous grey boundary line for the Western Cape province, and that would be beyond me… Otherwise I have my fingers crossed that you think it's ok. TTFN
Nortonius (
talk)
11:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Heyyyyy! I only just noticed you got rid of those mooring blocks, and did some more cleaning up! Yay! :o) p.p.s I just uploaded another version of said map with a more betterer Scale…
Hey, look! I've just found this! I shall read it ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 08:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm finding quite a lot of useful stuff in there; the only challenge I really have is in working out how to get the refs working the same way you have them. If there's a page you can point me to which explains exactly how to do the sort you;re doing, in "strings of refs", kinda thing, style of kidney ... then I can suss that out and get all the stuff working in the same format. I have a named ref <ref name=IzikoArchive/>, but have no idea how that fits in with the style of citations you're doing. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 11:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I'll let you play with tidying up the refs as necessary, while I take a look at that link you gave me earlier ;P And I always thought that the poop deck was where the ship's cat had its litter box ... Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 17:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
MMMMeeeee tooooooo! Btw, I was about to start fiddling with the Meermin again, but I wonder what you think of this: earlier, there were few Dutch/VOC terms like "Constapelskamer" in the article, and it seemed reasonable to include them, with an explanatory word or two; but now we've got quite a few, and I'm getting a sense that this brings a new degree of ?unavoidable wordiness. This might be a problem if it goes up for FA...? I thought that perhaps these VOC terms could be relegated to footnotes, with only straightforward English in the article, and wikilinks where appropriate; but that would be sort of shifting the problem to the footnotes, rather than fixing it. How about a single explanatory footnote for all VOC terms when we first encounter e.g. "supercargo", or anything striking that might come earlier, in a form something like
n. ^ The sources use 18th century Dutch "Commies" for "supercargo".ref Other such terms are "Constapelskamer" for "gunroom";ref "Scheepsmonkeynuts" for "ship's peanuts";ref etc.
— Hmm?
Then the footnote could be named something like "|name=VOCterms". Any good? Or should I just concentrate on the monkey nuts? Nortonius ( talk) 10:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
As I said to someone else who asked for help with an article on my talk page, I think it's crucial to get the lead right. I find it to be a bit fragmentary, especially at the beginning, so my question to you is are you happy for me to rewrite or would you prefer me simply to make suggestions as to how you could rewrite? Malleus Fatuorum 23:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
You may have the honours of putting that in! (And don't say I never give you anything ... ;P ) I've dropped a note on the article talk page that there's a load here; actually I'm far more comfortable on my own talk, where I don't have to remember to be "more encyclopaedically formal" and can have a giggle from time to time. They may join us over here, if they wish. But I'll keep an eye on the "proper place", as well. Pesky ( talk … stalk!) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
And I found your user page interesting too. Hello...
I agree very much with what you say on Jimbo's page, starting with your observation that Wikipedia is a sort of honey trap for HFA. I've often suspected that too.
At the risk of stating the obvious, Wikipedia is also likely to attract a disproportionate number of editors who, for one reason or another (related maybe to personality, geography, disability, unemployment, age or whatever) are, whether through necessity or choice, a bit erm... socially isolated. You'd have thought we'd be extra predisposed to be considerate to one another. But that's not always so.
Like you, I'm concerned by the tendency for disturbing aggro or insulting behaviour on certain types of WP discussions, such as RfCs. The causes are likely multifactorial, including the opt-in character of RfCs which encourages strong opinions, as well their almost parliamentary support/oppose format which seems to foster polarization. And of course there's the well known issue of talking via a screen rather than face to face. I think your points about the likely distribution of the Wikipedia community across the autism spectrum may be another relevant factor.
My own hunch is that some good input from social psychologist/s could perhaps help make Wikipedia processes, literally, more friendly.
See you around. Best, MistyMorn ( talk) 16:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
I scored a 31. Oops! Montanabw (talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I was trying to post here but got into a fatal edit conflict because the discussion had already been closed:
2c from a passer by, MistyMorn ( talk) 11:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
... the smell of real, proper, old-fashioned furniture polish. Turpentine'n'beeswax'n'stuff. The K-series Steinway next to me got a whole heap of lovin' today (as did anything else I could play with, with my new toy ... polish-buffer attachment for power drill :D). It glows; it gleams; it does not look like something "born" in 1897. And my grandmother's housekeepr would never recognise the old kitchen chairs ... [yes, Pesky has been obsessive-compulsively doing housework again] Pesky ( talk) 18:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky. I'm still going over all the JLAN stuff, trying to work out what the best solution would be - mildly difficult because I know so little about horses! I know a little about pigs though, so I've been following the Large Black saga and much of my thought processes are based on that, along with my wiki-knowledge. Now, I see you mention JLAN in relation to OR, UNDUE or POV information to articles. I haven't seen a lot of evidence of him adding any, though I've seen him complain about the POV, especially American POV. Is this the sort of thing you're talking about? The last thing I want to see here is "silencing of the opposition" WormTT · ( talk) 09:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
One of the other real challenges is that he just often won;t let things go; having done the argument about measurements being in hands, and lost it, he then tried it again in at least one other place (and very possibly more); I think one of them was on an article up for GA or FA. He also started edit-warring on a GA, and then put it up for review saying that it was unstable, when actually the only person making it unstable was really himself. I think he particularly notices articles that are in sensitive places, like GA, FA, TFA, etc., and goes in to work on those ones, without really considering what consensuses have been arrived at in the past about them, and it tends to just derail what has until then been a pretty stable article.
It's a very sad saga, really; I'm not sure how it could be dealt with other than asking him to join one or more other WikiProjects, taking with him the lessons he's (hopefully) learned about how his editing style affects others, and starting with a clean slate and a fresh batch of editors who haven't yet had any problems with him. That may work; on the other hand, it's possible that he may find the same problems elsewhere. I really think that he doesn't know that he comes across as bullying other editors, and heavy-handed. Please ask Dana, Montana, Ealdgyth and others for more specifics; as I say, I'm just off-the-top-of-the-head remembering things I've seen happening, as I've been specifically avoiding stressy areas wherever possible. I hope this info is helpful. Probably going through JLAN's talk page history would give you quite a bit more, from several other editors who've also found him to be heavy-handed. I hope he can find another area within Wikipedia where he'll be happy, and settle well, but I have a nasty feeling that if he stays in WP:EQUINE other editors who have contributed far more, and at extremely high standards, will see no option but to leave Equine, and possibly quit Wikipedia altogether. I wish I could be more hopeful, but I really think he's burned his bridges a bit. Pesky ( talk) 14:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, sadly, that happens when an editor hasn't had interactions with loads and loads of others; most people on the dramah board don't do any homework and just pass snap, knee-jerk, off-the-cuff judgments on what's immediately apparent or has actually been specifically brought to their attention at the time. And an opponent who cherry-picks through a year's-worth of diffs to find all the ones which highlight on;ly one aspect of the case are always going to cause problems. I think all we can do is just take it as read that the vast majority of the dramah-board regulars are going to be less than thorough before declaiming their own wossnames. Having said that, WTT (in my experience) is both thorough and fair to a level beyond that of many others I've met here, and always means well and tries to do his best. But standing up to a bully is never easy, as sometimes the only language they understand is their own. AN/I is a minefield. Pesky ( talk) 14:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Here. But as soon as I'd posted I realised that I'd got it arse about face in the edit summary. How I sometimes wish we could edit the edit summaries! Malleus Fatuorum 19:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
And heh! what did you think of ArbCom's genius idea that nobody's allowed to contribute to a discussion any more unless their contribution directly improves it? [Pesky ROFLMFAO] It's gonna get very, very quiet around here ... unless we all just ignore ArbCom's "reminder". Pesky ( talk) 19:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
My nearly-23-year-old youngest offspring has just said "I wish I was young again!" Pesky ( talk) 18:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I was in Asda earlier this evening, and I went through one of their self-service checkouts, which I love. As you may know, your paper change comes out one orifice and your coin change another. I collected my fiver from one orifice but forgot about the other. As I walked away from the checkout the (female) operator shouted to me "Love, have you forgotten your change?" Now, I've seen discussions elsewhere here suggesting that some might be upset by such apparent intimacy, but that's just the way people talk oop north, and I'd have been mortified if she'd been forced to say something like "excuse me sir, but have you forgotten your change?" How on Earth can we begin to define what's civil and what isn't? Malleus Fatuorum 03:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Hey, Ooh Bunnies! Long time no see! You're absolutely right, Malleus isn't a bully, nor is he mean. And I've been having to think how best to handle a situation with someone who really is a bully, though they almost certainly can't see it and almost equally certainly don't intend to be bullying. Polite-language bullying is far worse, in my opinion, than blunt-language non-bullying. Workplaces? Yes, you're right there, too. Some of the shittiest, meanest, nastiest behaviour I've ever encountered has been in workplaces. For the people who say "Treat it like a workplace," when they mean "Be really nice and civil", all I can say is that I envy them their workplaces! Pesky ( talk) 06:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
"Love, have you forgotten your change?" would be accepted as formal discourse in many parts of the south, where more informal responses might include "Is that yours, my lover?" Geometry guy 00:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Stupidly fragile today, please bear with me! I had to get other half to go and fetch morphine dose into the bedroom for me and "feed" it to me this morning, as I couldn't even get out of bed to go and get it. Pain level is now tolerable, but morphine-level increases mental fuzziness, so it's likely that I won't express myself perhaps as clearly as usual, even. Pesky ( talk) 10:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi. Thanks for your kind message and the link to your excellent essay. You're right: experienced editors, with a track record of producing quality content, should be role models of the sort of behavior that makes Wikipedia a more enjoyable experience and a better functioning workspace. I've been coming to see the value in striving for that, though I'm very much still a work in progress. Hearing from someone as thoughtful and nice as you is a real help, and I appreciate it. Regards, DocKino ( talk) 12:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
User:Cyberpower678 is incredibly stressed-out at the moment with dealing with toolserver, bots, and so on. It's not anything I know anything about, but if any of my stalkers would like to wander over to Cyberpower's talk page and see if they can offer any help, moral support, anything at all, or would like to learn anything about bot-working as an apprentice, I really think it would be very much appreciated. I think CP feels very alone at the moment, and a friend or two would make an enormous difference. Pesky ( talk) 07:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Imagine a pre-tanks battlefield. Imagine the row of cannons, quiet now, with the gunners all lying on the ground, dead. Imagine a solitary man, breeched, booted and spurred, standing in front of the row of cannon, shading his eyes with his hands and looking around. What is he saying?
"My battery's dead, and I can't find my charger." Pesky ( talk) 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky, hope you're ok! Malleus has asked if you have an opinion about Talk:Meermin (VOC ship)/GA1: he says that there's still more in the article about the mutiny than about the ship, though I've done a bit to redress that, and wondered if you might like to comment. Cheers. Nortonius ( talk) 01:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm seeing a relatively new user, User:Hghyux, start doing NPP today and doing lots of mistakes. I'm not in a position to spend time helping out and Kudpung is on vacation, so I thought I'd bug you. Could you help out or know somebody to help out. Bgwhite ( talk) 02:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Mrmatiko, I don't want to presume too much about how Chzz is feeling, in case I've got it completely wrong ... but if it were me, I would be feeling as though I've been told that if I'm nice, I'll be allowed to come back as the lowest of the low, doing unpaid and undervalued work, often carrying several people's share of the work at any one time, to the best of my ability, and only if I can show "proper deference" to overlords that I feel have belittled, humiliated, and totally misunderstood me. And I might be given a sweetie if I don't complain too much. I can't think why anyone would want to drop themselves into servility, having tried to make a point of some kind about cabalism-or-whatever, under the same people and system that they wanted to improve in the first place. I can't think what to compare it to, really. If you're not there, people can't go on and on rubbing your already-sore nose in it, I suppose. But then I'm riddled with pain and morphine, and a bit "down"; all Real Life stuff interfering with my abilities to think and communicate clearly. Pesky ( talk) 09:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Information is not Knowledge
Knowledge is not Wisdom
Wisdom is not Truth
Truth is not Beauty
Beauty is not Love
Love is not Music
Music is THE BEST
Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz, which is extinct.
Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short, cloth, neck ornament, currently in resurgence.
— Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage, Act III
Aye to that– though, I think "principles" are germane to Chzz's absence from WP. Must be time I had more tea! ;o) Nortonius ( talk) 16:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Btw ... just saw the "hugs" post .. "gampa" is always up for grannie hugs. :-) ... — Ched : ? 22:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
(>**)><(**<) Pesky ( talk) 22:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Re comment on NYB page. I once worked with a new to the group woman on a tech project where we had separate but overlapping responsibilities. We were both strong willed and particular about how things when done, but always wanted to be seen as professional. Things slowly built up for about a week until we lost it and just started screaming at each other -- at which point we came to the realization I didn't care about her pet peeve things and she didn't care about my pet peeve things so we could (and did) work quite well together. But -- and this is the important part in the context of Wikipedia -- this only achievable after a relationship has been established. Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble.
PS: updated your link ;) Nobody Ent 19:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Re Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble. Yes, another communication issue common to many internet forum environments where participants know they're unlikely to have to engage in real-world relations? Meaning that conflict kicks in straight off before any meaningful working relationship has had time and space to develop. — MistyMorn ( talk) 10:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
This remark by Malleus is utterly reprehensible. How can he do this to you? I thought you were his best mate. Bgwhite ( talk) 09:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Thought I'd better let you know– it might've been a bit rash of me, sticking my head up above the bracken like that, but...! Hope you're ok...? Nortonius ( talk) 10:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
When tagging a page with {{ copyvio}} please remember to also list it at WP:CP as described in the instructions in the template. The copyvio at The Evil One (film) has only jsut be dealt with as those that deal with copyvios at WP:CP were unaware of it. A bot would normally automatically list anything that was not listed but this was down for several months and it's best it is not relied upon. Dpmuk ( talk) 04:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I think the Skeptic will be fine, he's just a bright example of why wikipedia policy sucks so much. I think I read somewhere that Good faith is not policy, it's just some essay garbage. Result of the lack of policy in that area equates to inevitable lack of wikipedia.
It's also lovely to see how well ANI actually works, where people accuse him of poetry on his userpage. I think it's a valid point, we should all be on the lookout for poetry on userpages. Be vigilant !
Anyhow, I have a read about the HFA stuff, it's interesting. Personally I have a very very different ability for perspectives and a shortcoming. It's an interesting topic you have going. Penyulap talk 10:31, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
[A Pesky original] Pesky ( talk) 21:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky, it feels like it's been a while! :o) While I don't want to poke fun at anyone in particular (I live in a glass house! ;op ), I wondered if you might like to consider these
[6]
[7] for your selection of "Funny Things"! ;o) While I'm here, you may have noticed that I've been fiddling with
History of the horse in Britain lately (while I think about avoid thinking about nominating either
Meermin slave mutiny or
Reculver as an FAC). I hope the horse article's improving, though like everything on WP I ain't finished yet! Hope you're ok. :o)
Nortonius (
talk)
14:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky, how's things? I thought I'd drop by to say I think I've broadly done what I can with
History of the horse in Britain, but for sorting out some of the refs, which I think needs doing, and any irresistible tweaks I might spot! Main thing is, I noticed that the section "19th and 20th centuries" currently ends with World War I, and I think filling that gap is a job for someone else– not necessarily you obv, I just mean not me! :o) About refs, one in particular is bothering me: I'm not sure we can use
this, it doesn't look like a RS to me, unless anyone knows any better?(nvm, hopefully
I've sorted that one now!) There may be others, that's just one I've stopped at for now. Hope you're ok!
Nortonius (
talk)
19:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC) p.s. Those refs & citations are proving tricky, I'm having to go through them with a
fine toothcomb (lol), pretty much one-by-one– also I mentioned a need for more info on British horses in 19th & 20th centuries, add to that horses in Wales & Scotland (esp. Roman & early medieval times), the article feels very Anglo-centric at times; and I've left a few hidden messages saying "ref please!" Just keeping you up to date, fiddling with those refs is keeping me from getting too bored, hope you're feeling a bit better today.