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Hello! I've put together an essay at Wikipedia:Unopposed AFD discussion. It's in early stages, but I think you might want to write up a quick little "opposition" section to it. Such comments would be welcome.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm no expert at wikipedia, though I've made a number of edits. Last July, you played a role in the deletion of the opednews page. That's why I'm contacting you.
I am the publisher of the website, (not the wikipedia page) and the deletion came as somewhat of a surprise to me.
I believe that Opednews meets wikipedia's criteria. To put together a response to the deletion I worked with the team of four managing editors and five senior editors to assemble documentation about the site, including supporting links to websites that wikipedia accepts as supporting notability.
I also have audio recordings of members of congress talking positively about their respect for Opednews. They are published as parts of podcasts of interviews published on Opednews and elsewhere. Senator Sanders site mentions me and opednews, though they spell it wrong, op-ed news, here.
Here is a portion of the documentation we put together:
OEN was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal, Aug. 26, 2008.
OEN was mentioned in the
New York Times, May 26, 2009.
OEN was mentioned in the Washington Post Feb. 8, 2011.
OEN was mentioned in the Chicago Tribune (spelled Op-Ed News) Sept. 5, 2012.
OEN was mentioned in the Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct 7, 2011
There is much more information, but these are certainly mentions, by the publications' writers of the site.
Can you provide any guidance on how to proceed to appeal the deletion so the page can be re-instated?
thanks so much for your consideration and any advice you can offer rob kall
I'm certainly very willing to begin a further appeal on your behalf. I don't know whether it would succeed. I used to understand Wikipedia's notability criteria, which used to be a simple and objective test. The rules have changed in some way that I find mysterious and confusing, and things that would have been acceptable a few years ago are sometimes getting deleted now. But, if you do want to go ahead with no guarantee of success, then I'll happily follow the process: just drop me another note to say so. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 00:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Basically, "notable" used to mean "not marketing spam", and now it means "a worthy subject about which we have decided to let you write an article". It's become all self-important.— S Marshall T/ C 11:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Like I said, I'm no expert at Wikipedia, so, perhaps "mentioned' is the wrong word. Is "cited" better? Also, some writers for the site, including me, have been on TV, introduced as writers or editors, as experts. Does that also count towards notability? And opednews is one of the sites google news has credentialed for indexing as a news site. Does that count towards notability? We've been indexed by them for over ten years. Also, would endorsements from notable people help in pursuing the deletion appeal-- like from members of congress or other wikipedia notables? Further, if you do a google search for LIBERAL NEWS or PROGRESSIVE OPINION opednews usually comes up as the first non-paid result. You can't buy that kind organic search engine position. Having over 5000 links in, as Alexa shows, makes it happen. Does that help? Robkall ( talk) 17:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Let's see if it will. I've begun the appeal on this page for you, so let's move discussion to there.— S Marshall T/ C 18:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
The Barnstar of Diplomacy | ||
Perhaps I should wait to award this until the conflict is resolved, but however it turns out, I feel this was very tactfully handled by you, in how you recognized the contributions and perspectives of the two entrenched editors while urging things forward toward a more stable solution, a recommendation which seems to have been taken to heart by the involved editors. Wikipedia needs more bridge-building of this nature and so I hereby award you this Barnstar of Diplomacy. Snow ( talk) 03:06, 21 April 2014 (UTC) |
In considering WP:USEBYOTHERS, WP:RSOPINION and WP:SOFIXIT, and even with one editor's thoughts that a political blog cannot possibly be notable because it is both political and liberal blog, something need not itself catch headlines if it as a political website is used by and quoted in multiple reliable sources. Impatience with slow improvement is no reason to ignore folks stating a topic is improvable ( WP:WIP, WP:IMPERFECT), and specially as AFD is not a bludgeon to force cleanup, so I performed some. Schmidt, Michael Q. 14:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Re your reverts, according to WP:BLPLEAD: "Generally the guidelines for lead sections specify what should be in the first section. For example, exact birth and death dates are certainly important to the person being described, but if they are also mentioned in the body, the vital year range can be sufficient to provide context in some cases. Birth and death places should be mentioned in the body if known, and in the lead if they are relevant to the person's notability; they should not be mentioned within the opening brackets" Her city and country of birth do not contribute towards her notability. Therefore, it does not belong in the lead. Thank you for your attention. Regards, -- Ohc ¡digame! 14:10, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Look, when I wrote that text more than five years ago, WP:BLPLEAD looked like this. I didn't realise I needed to watchlist Manual of Style subpages to stop people dreaming up unilateral, one-size-fits-all, and completely unnecessary rules, and I don't have the time and patience to fight them all anyway. But as far as my contributions are concerned, I wasn't consulted about this rule, I disagree with it and I resist it.— S Marshall T/ C 18:01, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
With all due respect, since when does two votes for redirect, one vote for redirect or delete, and one vote for keep constitute a consensus for AfD purposes? The nominator of that AfD massively misrepresented the sourcing in the article, and, contrary to your claim, none of the people who voted for delete or redirect mentioned the 7 sources in the article, which "Lady Lotus" misrepresented as only "1 reliable source." If people said, "I saw the sources and they're not enough," that would be one thing, but it appears at least a couple people voted based only on the nominator's bogus claim of "1 source." - Bbny-wiki-editor ( talk) 21:20, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Just so you're aware, you're at 3 reverts. Thargor Orlando ( talk) 12:52, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Your comment added [ here], which you've put in a folded section. The heading you gave "...thinks the delete !votes don't carry much weight", doesn't seem to tie up with the comment itself. Unless I'm somehow misreading it. You might want to fix that. -- 86.2.216.5 ( talk) 21:39, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I ask that you review the discussion at User_talk:Ricky81682#Template:GR so you can further evaluate the situation. Please feel free to comment at Template_talk:Geographic_reference#rfc_5B71C8A as well. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 03:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Dear S Marshall, what do you think of Limiting case (philosophy of science) having three paragraphs now? Now other user is questioning the whole idea because he/she imagines that it is a "rare and strange" term. Thanks! -- Damián A. Fernández Beanato ( talk) 00:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
That was unnecessary. We had a list that didn't work for Wikipedia, we discussed alternatives, and we worked towards a conclusion that kept everyone happy and wasn't a straight "keep" or "delete". Rude comments from the closer because we actually worked at a consensus conclusion were completely unnecessary. The Drover's Wife ( talk) 01:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I am inviting you to leave me some feedback, 18 months after you opposed my RfA. Do you still believe I am not fit to be an admin? Do you believe I have been able to improve past the concerns you have brought up? Do not be afraid of being too harsh, I am specifically welcoming criticism as I believe it is the best way to improve and I am always looking to learn from my mistakes. I am particularly looking for feedback as to whether you have objections to myself lifting the self-imposed 1RR restriction I had agreed to towards the end of my RfA. If you don't have time to comment, don't fret it either, this is nothing I'll lose sleep over. :) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that there is a means to re-create this article without it being subject to immediate attack and speedy deletion? I've never seen it. The history of deletion is an immediate prejudice. And as you said, its harsh. I've come on a little too strong in these arguments, so I piss people off. But I don't think an article that has merit, that has hope, should get the gallows. Trackinfo ( talk) 00:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Since it's tough to follow the RFC's mess:
The most likely case is that someone wanted to do good, but got frustrated, Rotlink is clearly a long term Wikipedia user and their activity predates Archive.is - Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/RotlinkBot is a good read as well. Oh, and Rotlink is still clearly present on Wikipedia, but you'd need an ArbCom case with a substantial amount of checkusering of now stale data to connect it all. Kww stopped the flow, but Rotlink was the source of a lot of hassle and Archive.is has been advocating for months for Wikipedia to use a paid service, a different service or make their own. Wikipedia costs them money, makes more hassle and does nothing to "promote them" - RFC can go either way, but Wikipedia always has had issues with archivers. ChrisGualtieri ( talk) 15:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I suspect the books were the work of someone who (like me) speaks German as a second language: "Die Familie hat eine lange und bemerkenswerte Geschichte in den Bereichen Bildung, Technik, Mathematik, Medizin, Physik, Wissenschaft und Retail Management..." (Lord only knows how one translates "retail management", but I'm sure the correct word both looks and sounds like a freight train taking up slack.) Choess ( talk) 23:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
for support, - you mentioned forgiving, nothing Wikipedia does often, that's my experience ;) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi S Marshall. Thank you for your detailed, excellently explained closes at WP:ANRFC! You participated in the DRV at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 July 4#Jacob Barnett. As an experienced editor, would you take a look at Jacob Barnett and Talk:Jacob Barnett#Recent edits by Slawekb to see if the article complies with BLP and NPOV? Thank you, Cunard ( talk) 07:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.. Barney the barney barney ( talk) 10:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello S Marshall, I hope you don't mind but I've partially struck your comment on the RFA
[1] as now I support the editor I assumed it would simply be confusing to leave it as it was,
Just thought I should tell you, If you would prefer to unstrike I don't mind,
Thanks, Regards, –
Davey2010 •
(talk)
15:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archives: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 ∞ |
Hello! I've put together an essay at Wikipedia:Unopposed AFD discussion. It's in early stages, but I think you might want to write up a quick little "opposition" section to it. Such comments would be welcome.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm no expert at wikipedia, though I've made a number of edits. Last July, you played a role in the deletion of the opednews page. That's why I'm contacting you.
I am the publisher of the website, (not the wikipedia page) and the deletion came as somewhat of a surprise to me.
I believe that Opednews meets wikipedia's criteria. To put together a response to the deletion I worked with the team of four managing editors and five senior editors to assemble documentation about the site, including supporting links to websites that wikipedia accepts as supporting notability.
I also have audio recordings of members of congress talking positively about their respect for Opednews. They are published as parts of podcasts of interviews published on Opednews and elsewhere. Senator Sanders site mentions me and opednews, though they spell it wrong, op-ed news, here.
Here is a portion of the documentation we put together:
OEN was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal, Aug. 26, 2008.
OEN was mentioned in the
New York Times, May 26, 2009.
OEN was mentioned in the Washington Post Feb. 8, 2011.
OEN was mentioned in the Chicago Tribune (spelled Op-Ed News) Sept. 5, 2012.
OEN was mentioned in the Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct 7, 2011
There is much more information, but these are certainly mentions, by the publications' writers of the site.
Can you provide any guidance on how to proceed to appeal the deletion so the page can be re-instated?
thanks so much for your consideration and any advice you can offer rob kall
I'm certainly very willing to begin a further appeal on your behalf. I don't know whether it would succeed. I used to understand Wikipedia's notability criteria, which used to be a simple and objective test. The rules have changed in some way that I find mysterious and confusing, and things that would have been acceptable a few years ago are sometimes getting deleted now. But, if you do want to go ahead with no guarantee of success, then I'll happily follow the process: just drop me another note to say so. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 00:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Basically, "notable" used to mean "not marketing spam", and now it means "a worthy subject about which we have decided to let you write an article". It's become all self-important.— S Marshall T/ C 11:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Like I said, I'm no expert at Wikipedia, so, perhaps "mentioned' is the wrong word. Is "cited" better? Also, some writers for the site, including me, have been on TV, introduced as writers or editors, as experts. Does that also count towards notability? And opednews is one of the sites google news has credentialed for indexing as a news site. Does that count towards notability? We've been indexed by them for over ten years. Also, would endorsements from notable people help in pursuing the deletion appeal-- like from members of congress or other wikipedia notables? Further, if you do a google search for LIBERAL NEWS or PROGRESSIVE OPINION opednews usually comes up as the first non-paid result. You can't buy that kind organic search engine position. Having over 5000 links in, as Alexa shows, makes it happen. Does that help? Robkall ( talk) 17:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Let's see if it will. I've begun the appeal on this page for you, so let's move discussion to there.— S Marshall T/ C 18:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
The Barnstar of Diplomacy | ||
Perhaps I should wait to award this until the conflict is resolved, but however it turns out, I feel this was very tactfully handled by you, in how you recognized the contributions and perspectives of the two entrenched editors while urging things forward toward a more stable solution, a recommendation which seems to have been taken to heart by the involved editors. Wikipedia needs more bridge-building of this nature and so I hereby award you this Barnstar of Diplomacy. Snow ( talk) 03:06, 21 April 2014 (UTC) |
In considering WP:USEBYOTHERS, WP:RSOPINION and WP:SOFIXIT, and even with one editor's thoughts that a political blog cannot possibly be notable because it is both political and liberal blog, something need not itself catch headlines if it as a political website is used by and quoted in multiple reliable sources. Impatience with slow improvement is no reason to ignore folks stating a topic is improvable ( WP:WIP, WP:IMPERFECT), and specially as AFD is not a bludgeon to force cleanup, so I performed some. Schmidt, Michael Q. 14:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Re your reverts, according to WP:BLPLEAD: "Generally the guidelines for lead sections specify what should be in the first section. For example, exact birth and death dates are certainly important to the person being described, but if they are also mentioned in the body, the vital year range can be sufficient to provide context in some cases. Birth and death places should be mentioned in the body if known, and in the lead if they are relevant to the person's notability; they should not be mentioned within the opening brackets" Her city and country of birth do not contribute towards her notability. Therefore, it does not belong in the lead. Thank you for your attention. Regards, -- Ohc ¡digame! 14:10, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Look, when I wrote that text more than five years ago, WP:BLPLEAD looked like this. I didn't realise I needed to watchlist Manual of Style subpages to stop people dreaming up unilateral, one-size-fits-all, and completely unnecessary rules, and I don't have the time and patience to fight them all anyway. But as far as my contributions are concerned, I wasn't consulted about this rule, I disagree with it and I resist it.— S Marshall T/ C 18:01, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
With all due respect, since when does two votes for redirect, one vote for redirect or delete, and one vote for keep constitute a consensus for AfD purposes? The nominator of that AfD massively misrepresented the sourcing in the article, and, contrary to your claim, none of the people who voted for delete or redirect mentioned the 7 sources in the article, which "Lady Lotus" misrepresented as only "1 reliable source." If people said, "I saw the sources and they're not enough," that would be one thing, but it appears at least a couple people voted based only on the nominator's bogus claim of "1 source." - Bbny-wiki-editor ( talk) 21:20, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Just so you're aware, you're at 3 reverts. Thargor Orlando ( talk) 12:52, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Your comment added [ here], which you've put in a folded section. The heading you gave "...thinks the delete !votes don't carry much weight", doesn't seem to tie up with the comment itself. Unless I'm somehow misreading it. You might want to fix that. -- 86.2.216.5 ( talk) 21:39, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I ask that you review the discussion at User_talk:Ricky81682#Template:GR so you can further evaluate the situation. Please feel free to comment at Template_talk:Geographic_reference#rfc_5B71C8A as well. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 03:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Dear S Marshall, what do you think of Limiting case (philosophy of science) having three paragraphs now? Now other user is questioning the whole idea because he/she imagines that it is a "rare and strange" term. Thanks! -- Damián A. Fernández Beanato ( talk) 00:13, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
That was unnecessary. We had a list that didn't work for Wikipedia, we discussed alternatives, and we worked towards a conclusion that kept everyone happy and wasn't a straight "keep" or "delete". Rude comments from the closer because we actually worked at a consensus conclusion were completely unnecessary. The Drover's Wife ( talk) 01:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I am inviting you to leave me some feedback, 18 months after you opposed my RfA. Do you still believe I am not fit to be an admin? Do you believe I have been able to improve past the concerns you have brought up? Do not be afraid of being too harsh, I am specifically welcoming criticism as I believe it is the best way to improve and I am always looking to learn from my mistakes. I am particularly looking for feedback as to whether you have objections to myself lifting the self-imposed 1RR restriction I had agreed to towards the end of my RfA. If you don't have time to comment, don't fret it either, this is nothing I'll lose sleep over. :) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that there is a means to re-create this article without it being subject to immediate attack and speedy deletion? I've never seen it. The history of deletion is an immediate prejudice. And as you said, its harsh. I've come on a little too strong in these arguments, so I piss people off. But I don't think an article that has merit, that has hope, should get the gallows. Trackinfo ( talk) 00:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Since it's tough to follow the RFC's mess:
The most likely case is that someone wanted to do good, but got frustrated, Rotlink is clearly a long term Wikipedia user and their activity predates Archive.is - Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/RotlinkBot is a good read as well. Oh, and Rotlink is still clearly present on Wikipedia, but you'd need an ArbCom case with a substantial amount of checkusering of now stale data to connect it all. Kww stopped the flow, but Rotlink was the source of a lot of hassle and Archive.is has been advocating for months for Wikipedia to use a paid service, a different service or make their own. Wikipedia costs them money, makes more hassle and does nothing to "promote them" - RFC can go either way, but Wikipedia always has had issues with archivers. ChrisGualtieri ( talk) 15:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I suspect the books were the work of someone who (like me) speaks German as a second language: "Die Familie hat eine lange und bemerkenswerte Geschichte in den Bereichen Bildung, Technik, Mathematik, Medizin, Physik, Wissenschaft und Retail Management..." (Lord only knows how one translates "retail management", but I'm sure the correct word both looks and sounds like a freight train taking up slack.) Choess ( talk) 23:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
for support, - you mentioned forgiving, nothing Wikipedia does often, that's my experience ;) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 09:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi S Marshall. Thank you for your detailed, excellently explained closes at WP:ANRFC! You participated in the DRV at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 July 4#Jacob Barnett. As an experienced editor, would you take a look at Jacob Barnett and Talk:Jacob Barnett#Recent edits by Slawekb to see if the article complies with BLP and NPOV? Thank you, Cunard ( talk) 07:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.. Barney the barney barney ( talk) 10:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello S Marshall, I hope you don't mind but I've partially struck your comment on the RFA
[1] as now I support the editor I assumed it would simply be confusing to leave it as it was,
Just thought I should tell you, If you would prefer to unstrike I don't mind,
Thanks, Regards, –
Davey2010 •
(talk)
15:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)