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Tobes
(talk)
11:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled " Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:
The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.
Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you. Tobes (talk) 11:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
Keep up the good work on language-related articles! Sala Skan 22:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
Meanwhile, you may find it useful to create a user page. Here, you can tell things about yourself and keep logs of things you'd like to remember. Again, thank you! Sala Skan 22:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Suppose you read that in kiKungili telephone directories the letters "B", "H", "R" and "W" are sorted the same, and that thanks to this the surnames Byatt, Hyatt, Ryatt and Wyatt can be found in the same spot. Wouldn't you be somewhat puzzled? The advantage of sorting is that different name are found in different spots. Only if they know that in kiKungili those four letters are considered variants of the same letter, and that those four names sound the same when pronounced, can a reader appreciate the advantage. Likewise, the typical Wikipedia reader, who doesn't know Dutch, may not immediately see how sorting Bruijn and Bruyn to the same place should be advantageous. You keep removing information that makes this understandable. It also appears that you have some conception about the use or meaning of the term "variant" that I don't understand. Do you think the word is used incorrectly on the following pages: [1], [2], [3], [4]? -- Lambiam 10:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The way it was used now was (in my opinion) not ideal. In the example Bruijn/Bruyn there's surely something to be said for it but not necessarily in all cases where surnames exist with ij and y these surnames are related. Still, you may be right that I was too brief. Therefore I have expanded the sentence a bit so that your meaning is explicitely "voiced". Richard 14:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help! Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 10:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I am galled. Not only by the comment but by your stubborn persistence that it remain. It is clearly offensive to at least 10 million people and should not be presented as mainstream Netherlandic thought. Wikipedia relies on the printed word and editors that give their opinions. But this is offensive, nothing else. The only possible rationale for inclusion is continued prejudice. You crassly disregard common standards with this unfortunate statement. Its educational value is Nil...Nada...Nothing. You can surround it with subtle verbs like percieved and dipicted but this does not change a thing. I am not pushing my POV---I am merely protecting it. I will continue to correct this type of slander...here and elsewhere. We are creating a new encyclopedia for the Ages. Not the Dark Ages, tho!-- Buster7 ( talk) 22:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
BTW...No "perhaps" about it!. It has EVERYTHING to do with my heritage-- Buster7 ( talk) 23:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm basically flying around WikiWorld by "the seat of my pants", not always sure that the way I'm doing things is right or the most efficient for all concerned. I guess that's obvious. I appreciate your advice. It will make me a better editor. Bedankt.-- Buster7 ( talk) 10:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed you correcting a grammar mistake on Talk:Dutch customs and etiquette. If this were mainspace very good. However, it is general custom not to change talk page entries by others. While many corrections (like yours) will not be a problem, it is sometimes hard to interpret when you start changing the intention of the original editor. As Talk pages are only intended for other editors perfect grammar or style are not so much important, while the original psoting often is. So my advise, do not change texts on talk pages (except for your own). Cheers. Arnoutf ( talk) 19:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I was just about to say the same about the singular article....a....but you said it better. Thanks! As you can see, I'm still giving editors grief over Grammar and Usage of the English Language.-- Buster7 ( talk) 07:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Richardw! I just saw this edit you made, and I am curious, what does that do? I tried searching for this in Wikipedia help and elsewhere, but could not find anything. I also tried looking at the page before and after your change, but I can't spot any visual difference. Thank you in advance for satisfying my curiosity! CosineKitty ( talk) 18:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I wanted to point out that the image Lone_Cypress.jpg is actually hosted on Wikimedia Commons, not here. The image is provided there for all people to use, under a free license. If you feel the image is not actually free of copyright, you should start a discussion there. Removing the image from the article here does not change its availability on Wikimedia Commons. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 11:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Brasstown, the community, resides inside the township of Brasstown, that covers the western portion of clay county. I would bet money that the tornado is described in relation to the location unincorporated community (as the township is a larger area and therefore less accurate for describing the location of anything, in addition to the fact that there's very little reference to the townships themselves that I've seen.)
user:ncboy2010, 10:00PM EST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.63.8 ( talk) 02:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the edit help. It was getting late and I wanted to make sure the references were there. Also, the memories of that day were starting to come back and I needed to take a break.-- DeknMike ( talk) 17:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello! I spotted your comment at user talk:Martijn Hoekstra:
although there is one (1) glyph for "ij", its use is officially discouraged. See (among other places) here and here.
— User:Richardw 09:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Could you please be a bit more verbose on this? Actually, I'm interested in second link: it deprecates the use of Unicode glyphs U+01C4 – U+01CC, which can't be properly written otherwise. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 09:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
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The Minor barnstar |
Minor edits are often overlooked, but are essential contributions to Wikipedia. Thanks for sticking around and making steady improvements to encyclopedia over the years. (You recently passed 1,000 edits to articles!) Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 18:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC) |
Hi. Nice to see you here. Jeff5102 ( talk) 07:51, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
O yes, maybe you can look here. I`ve gotten myself into a fine mess, as Oliver Hardy would say. ;) Regards, Jeff5102 ( talk) 12:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
The same can be said for your own grammar. It seems like you do not really know what you are doing, both grammatically and in the context of the article itself - unless of course you are a biased Dutch person (as usual). You seem to agree with the placement of words that do not seem correct at all. Do not undo any edits until a consensus has been agreed.-- Robedia ( talk) 14:55, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
See here for the SPI on Robedia. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 01:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Your article does not contribute anything to the general discussion, Richardw, which is about the generally accepted Dutch culture as a whole. Accept it. Even Dutch academics admit it. Your article does not contain much information either to prove anything...even the cafe owner admitted it started as a joke. It is quite possible that her customers were Dutch tourists. The article does not prove that the "rude" customers are foreign...it is quite common for Dutch people after all to barge in. I have no need to go into further discussion with you anymore about this topic. It is childish trying to prove yourself...and frankly a waste of time.-- Nederlander90210 ( talk) 18:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC) P.S. Your behaviour leaves something to be desired and you are not an expert on grammar judging by your own edits... If you are Dutch, you are really not doing a good job proving that the Dutch are not rude.-- Nederlander90210 ( talk) 19:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
The reversion has been done. Hopefully the higher-ups can fix what's wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjnboy ( talk • contribs) 14:54, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Hello, thanks for your attempts to revert the edits by Terry Lee Marzell. However, you didn't revert the edits properly when there was more than one ... the undo feature can work with consecutive edits. see Help:Reverting for more information. Graham 87 16:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
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I didn't notice until now that there was a notice of "ten minutes later" (06:23 UTC) Had I noticed. I certainly wouldn't have reverted. TheGRVOfLightning ( talk) 11:18, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Hi Richard, I just noticed that user ßlackHeart (the one who claims that ß is a capital letter) also made this edit to IJ (Amsterdam). Personally I don't feel that such a remark is appropriate for an article about a body of water — or encyclopaedic at all. I don't think there is a need to state what the letter(s) do not stand for, especially in view of the detailed (and maybe also superfluous) explanation already given. What do you think? Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 20:04, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
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Dear Richardw,
I am sorry that I acted immature and annoyed you guys for "correcting" the IJ. You can look at my edit history: I no longer "correct" instances of capitalized IJ anymore (my most recent edit is to add the redirect page Ysbrand to IJsbrand. However, I am posting this message to ask you something:
Just a little backstory: I often joked around with my friends about the IJ, and we always pronounce capitalized IJ as I.J.
ßlackHeart ( talk) 22:12, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Quite interesting. A compilation of IJ can be found in this flickr page. I and my friends enjoyed going through the entire compilation, shouting I.J. whenever it occurs within a word, even though it is pronounced I. in most cases.
Just a fact, the dijgraph/trijgraph thing come from a Quora question. Dzs is also distinctive for being the only trigraph that is also a letter, but unlike IJ, I do not oppose the Dzs, or any multigraphs in Hungarian, since Hungarian is a highly phonetically consistent language (there is a simple one-to-one mapping to sounds and letter/letter combos with only a few irregular cases, unlike English), and some sounds have to map to multiple letter combinations, and then treat this combination as a single letter. The Dzs is also quite rare, since it does not have a "Hungarian Rune" counterpart, and it is almost exclusively used to transliterate the foreign 'J' sound or letter, such as those in English. I sometimes call the Dzs a Hungarian J, evne though this language also has a J character, which make the 'Y' sound. So in Hungarian, IJ could become I.Dzs. or something.
It seems that the special treatment of IJ is quite needless, and when I first saw it I was shocked. Interestingly, I spread this fact to my friends, and we all joked about anything which contain an IJ, such as "how much IJs do you have?" when we buy ice cream, and such. Or we completely omit the IJ, and pronounce the remainder of the word, such as pronouncing IJsbrand as Sbrand, and IJntema as 'nTema.
By the way, here is an instance of a regular Ij, from Candy Crush (official Dutch language), once the most popular mobile and Facebook game in the world, and is still among the most popular. This also applies for the mobile version.
Here are some more questions for you:
ßlackHeart ( talk) 21:11, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Extended content
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Transferred from User talk:89.172.185.158. See this edit and the next ones for context.
I really am surprised that saying 'you are a little more evolved than monkeys' is meant to be a compliment. Also, 'dutch people didn't do anything important for the civilisation' is offensive in its own way — that it is preceded by 'this is an offense' makes it even more dubious to put it like that. In the edit that was summarized that way, you removed (among other things) The Dutch are proud of their rich history in art — and yet you claim not to know who Rembrandt (Rembrandtdtdtdtt) was. To be honest, I am not sure if I should take your remarks seriously. The only more or less constructive edits you have done, resulted in eleven (!) references to prove the Croatian background of a missionary — a background that is not mentioned anywhere else in the article and the relevance of which remains unclear. The rest, I still perceive non-constructive. If you seriously doubt something, adding {{ Citation needed}} is usually a better way to start than removing text. Richard 17:09, 4 July 2017 (UTC) |
Humans and chimps have 98% of same genes. Also, 'dutch people didn't do anything important for the civilisation' this is one of the biggest truths ever. You like to think you are integrated and an example for all the other nations, but you are very nationalistic and conceited. 'this is an offense' means that the sentence I deleted is offensive to all those people who actually did something for the civilisation. You think you did something big for the civilisation. Chinese did, Japanese did, Germans (who Dutch people love a lot) did, and they do not brag themselves. Personally, I think Rembrandt's paintings are black as Ethiopians and have no quality. Why did I put so many sources? because when something is true, it is easy to find independent, reliable sources which confirm that truth. The whole article is silly, and almost every sentence there needs {{ Citation needed}}. -- 89.172.181.176 ( talk) 21:18, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Richardw, I am currently wondering is there any sites or books which show an IJ drop cap? If possible, can you provide me a page link in which one of the drop caps is an IJ? For books and non-web resources, can you post a snippet of the IJ drop cap (as long as it does not violate copyright?
I found a flickr link which contains many instances of the peculiarities of IJ: https://www.flickr.com/groups/ij/pool/
Have you gone to the Stedelijk Museum? Besides the unusual IJ which fits quite awkward in the logo, are there any instances of IJ which stay on one line where others do not in non-horizontal text? If possible, can you provide me a snippet?
ßlackHeart ( talk) 02:42, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I've reverted myself. Thought you had removed images but they don't exist. Mjroots ( talk) 17:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
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In Alsace, Rhine Franconian/Central German dialects are only spoken in Alsace bossue. TheCarlos1975 ( talk) 09:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
@ Richardw: I'd like to ask for your advice and help... Hi, I'm from Italy and I've seen you're a Dutch admin, I hope there's no problem if I speak English. I'm having troubles in Dutch wiki, there's a pair of corrections about Italian towns that should be done, but the Dutch users I met are biased towards me and don't want foreign users to interfere with Dutch wiki. I'm not trying forcing my "point of view", never ever: I'm providing correct information about the correct spelling of that pair of cities. So you don't have to trust my word, I well know that the whole wiki project isn't based on volunteer users but on primary sources, in fact I'm going to privide them to you, it'll be up to you to decide whether those sources are reliable or not, more or less authoritative than the ones "found" by the other Dutch users. But I strongly believe that you'll agree with they higher reliability. Obviously, should you disagree instead, I won't insist further. Consider that, without any offense for anyone, Italian mother-language speakers living in Italy since they were born have a better knowledge of Italian language, conventions and sources than any foreign person trying to understand them, exactly as Dutch speakers like you compared to Italian speakers like me have a better knowledge about Dutch language issues. For example, I'd never contest a Dutch user coming to it.wikipedia in order to ask Italian users to correct a pair of Dutch proper names from the "Y" spelling to the "IJ" spelling, I might try understanding more about this issue but I'd never doubt a mother-language speaker nor the sources he brings. This was the whole premise, now if you think you could be able to advise and help me I'll explain you what's this particular issue, I'll be shorter than I've been here since sources will speak for me. I'll wait for your reply. Thank you anyway for reading so far :-) 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 12:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Some remarks:
I hope I have made my point clear. ErikvanB ( talk) 17:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm glad you've come here to reply, ErikvanB, and I'll be glad to answer all of your points, forgive me for being long in this message.
I hope my replies were clear enough, I'm here to answer your doubts anyway. 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 21:11, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment: in fact, there are two cases. First, the case of 'Ruffr[éè]'. The proposed move was twofold: the accent was to be changed and the '-Mendola' was to be added. Although the first part (changing the accent) was later deemed less urgent, it became the main reason for denying the request. In the past, similar changes have been found controversial and/or counterproductive. That the request was made by someone working behind open proxies and the like, didn't help either. Justified or not, it always gives the impression that s/he is hiding something. Second, the case of Ciri[éè]. Erik renamed the page for reasons of internal consistency – that is, consistency within the Dutch Wikipedia. I don't know if I would have done that, but he did and he explained why he did it. My personal knowledge of Italian is extremely limited so I cannot say who's right and who's wrong – or if both opinions are justifiable. In any case, I can see that at the moment there is no consensus (not even between the users on the Italian Wikipedia) and that is a powerful regulating mechanism in the Dutch Wikipedia.
Some final thoughts for 46.249.38.152:
Richard 09:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for letting us discuss in your talk page, Richard.
About the first part of your comment: what's the reason for not moving "Ruffrè" to "Ruffrè-Mendola" if the accent is kept? And what was the consistency in nl.wikipedia you were talking about? He had to change also the template where the name of Cirié was written to recrate consistency after the renaming: there was already consistency, there's always been until then... Don't trust "me" for these issues, trust source and Italian users and admins who established which sources provide the official names of the cities, the names that have to be written in Wikipedia. 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Well, thank you for trying giving me a hand, if all Dutch users were as disposable as you towards foreign users everything would go better in Dutch wiki and not only there... Instead, alas, there're users proving themself totally biased towards us such as Moira, who instead of even just reading my rightful requests invites other users to ignore me, and Erik, who instead of replying to my arguments preferes talking to other users about me in a perfect "argumentum-ad-hominem" style... None of them has either recognised anything good I've tried doing or considered opening a discussion among Dutch user to verify whether the consensus if for Ruffrè-Mendola or Ruffrè and Ciriè or Cirié as I invited them to do (as they were scared of their lack of consensus)... It's not a genetic or environmental matter afterall, or I wouldn't have had the chance to meet users like you, Richard, and another pair of kind Dutch users I've found who couldn't help me despite agreeing with me because they were afraid of Ducth admins, it's just a matter of single persons, the worst but, alas, the most powerful... This is a defeat, not a victory, for Wikipedia... 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 17:59, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
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Sincere thanks for your help! Porteclefs ( talk) 12:38, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Hi Richardw. No worries. But, as you can see from the comments on the recently-closed move request on the Talk Page, there is considerable variation in how articles of this type open. There seems to be an irreconcilable conflict between using present tense for a flight that is still in operation and past tense to describe that a crash occurred in the past. User:Lord Belbury has made a fair point that the opening sentence should really sum up what the article is about. Any ideas? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 09:20, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
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Hi, Richardw! You may know more than I do on this matter, but I don't quite understand from your edit summary what you disapproved of regarding my recent edit to German language ( [5]). Thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 22:15, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
some German varieties or dialect groups... are alternatively referred to as "languages" and "dialects"is the grammar of that sentence. "Alternatively" to what? How about "are alternatively classified as "languages" or "dialects"? With alternatively, I think we want an "or" rather than an "and". Wolfdog ( talk) 21:52, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi Richard. I saw your comment at Colognian dialect. Do you know anything about the phonology? E.g. in the lead of that article, there's the pronunciation [kœlʃ²]. The superscript 2 is not IPA, and is not defined in that article, the phonology article, or the IPA key linked from {{ IPA-ksh}}. I assume it is supposed to indicate pitch accent or something, but it would be nice if we either defined it or replaced it with IPA (which is what we're supposed to be using). Do you have any idea what it is? Could you ping me if you respond? Thanks — kwami ( talk) 02:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
@ LiliCharlie: Thanks, Lili. Do you think we could characterize it as a falling tone, then? Syllables with falling tones tend to be short compared to others. (E.g., in Mandarin falling-tone syllables are shorter than those with level, rising or low/dipping tone, and many other languages are similar.) Not sure about the decreasing intensity, but that seems to match falling tone in other langs as well, at least in citation form. — kwami ( talk) 06:04, 21 January 2019 (UTC) I don't read Dutch, but this,
... suggests that stoot (abrupt?) = hoge (high) = accent 1 and sleep (level?) = val (falling) = accent 2. But the pitch traces in the next section contrast sleep and val, which means they can't both be accent 2. Was the order of the lead mixed up, with sleep = hoge = accent 1 and stoot = val = accent 2? And is their accent 2 what we've been marking with a superscript 2? — kwami ( talk) 06:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Hi Richard, just your comment that a translation wasn't literal. I thought from that you might be familiar with the language.
@ Kbb2:, thank you for clarifying. I linked Schleifton in the IPA key to the description you provided. Since the key uses the half-long sign, that's what we should use in the articles too. Is the Schleifton 'marked' and the Schärfung 'unmarked', then? The terminology is rather confusing, with geschärfter being Schliefton (2) but ungeschärfter being Scharfung (1). Is that contradictory, like English inrounded = exolabial, Or do I have them backwards? Would you mind checking this table?
— kwami ( talk) 05:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Just for the diphthongs. Monophthongs take the long mark for Stoßton. I'm copying the table into the main article. — kwami ( talk) 13:00, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I assume the stress mark is meant to convey the tone accents, that the position, presence or choice of 1ary vs 2ary stress indicates whether it's T1 or T2, since tone accent only occurs on stressed syllables. Swedish and Norwegian have similar conventions. But ideally we'd want some way to convey this with the IPA, so that naive readers can have some idea of what's going on. If I had to guess, I'd think that in ⟨ˈkœɫːʃ⟩, the stress mark indicates that the syllable has a tonic accent, and the length mark tells us which one -- in this case T1, which of course contradicts the transcription ⟨kœlʃ²⟩. There are lots of walled-garden conventions for using digits to indicate tone. A lot of the SE Asia articles use 1 for low tone and 5 for high tone, but claim that's IPA, and it's a constant cleanup effort to convert them to actual IPA. But at least with Chao tone letters (bars) the conversion is straightforward. Digits don't work because the African convention is that 5 is low and 1 is high, or sometimes 2 and 1 for low and high, while in Mesoamerica 1 is low and 3 is high, or sometimes 4. Digits are opaque unless you're privy to the local convention, which is at odds with the entire idea of an international phonetic alphabet, and with the MOS where it's been decided that we should use the IPA and other international conventions. I think it probably won't be so difficult with Swedish and Norwegian -- one tone diacritic vs two, patterned after the standard language, and readers familiar with other dialects should be able to extrapolate the local realizations of the tone accents. For Colognian, the half-long vs long convention is misleading, but perhaps it's adequate. If we actually indicate tone, which I'd prefer, I assume we'd want either one tone diacritic, to be placed on the tonic syllable of tone-marked words, which evidently would be T1, or two contrasting diacritics for T1 and T2. Should we take this discussion to Kbb2? I don't know your background. I wouldn't want to decide something, go to the effort of converting the articles, only to have someone who really knows their stuff tell us we got it backwards. — kwami ( talk) 22:54, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Another question would be whether we bother with stress marks. If we have some convention for both T1 and T2, then it would be redundant. If we only indicate the 'marked' tone accent, then the stress mark would indicate the other. (But it could also mean whoever added the pronunciation didn't know the tone accent and so ignored it.) And then there's the question of secondary stress. AFAIK, that's never been demonstrated to be phonemic in any language. It certainly isn't in English, despite what American dictionaries claim (though thankfully not the OED anymore). — kwami ( talk) 03:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC) Based on that paper, given the author's opinion that it's unfortunate the conventional notation resembles IPA length marks (implying that they're not supposed to indicate length), and while waiting for Mr KEBAB to get back to us, I propose a circumflex for T1 and either just a stress mark or some other tonal diacritic, maybe a grave, for T2 -- say, zɛ̂i (T1) vs zɛ̀i (T2), or ˈzɛ̂i vs ˈzɛi. — kwami ( talk) 06:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC) |
Since this topic appears to have come to a standstill, I'm transferring it to talk:Colognian dialect#IPA. Please, do not make any more modifications here. Richard 12:42, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Richard! I am new to Wikipedia and did not know how talk pages work, I figured it out now. :)
Kind regards, David — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRVIP93 ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
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11:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled " Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:
The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.
Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field, especially for big edits or when you are making subtle but important changes, like changing dates or numbers. Thank you. Tobes (talk) 11:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar | |
Keep up the good work on language-related articles! Sala Skan 22:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC) |
Meanwhile, you may find it useful to create a user page. Here, you can tell things about yourself and keep logs of things you'd like to remember. Again, thank you! Sala Skan 22:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Suppose you read that in kiKungili telephone directories the letters "B", "H", "R" and "W" are sorted the same, and that thanks to this the surnames Byatt, Hyatt, Ryatt and Wyatt can be found in the same spot. Wouldn't you be somewhat puzzled? The advantage of sorting is that different name are found in different spots. Only if they know that in kiKungili those four letters are considered variants of the same letter, and that those four names sound the same when pronounced, can a reader appreciate the advantage. Likewise, the typical Wikipedia reader, who doesn't know Dutch, may not immediately see how sorting Bruijn and Bruyn to the same place should be advantageous. You keep removing information that makes this understandable. It also appears that you have some conception about the use or meaning of the term "variant" that I don't understand. Do you think the word is used incorrectly on the following pages: [1], [2], [3], [4]? -- Lambiam 10:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The way it was used now was (in my opinion) not ideal. In the example Bruijn/Bruyn there's surely something to be said for it but not necessarily in all cases where surnames exist with ij and y these surnames are related. Still, you may be right that I was too brief. Therefore I have expanded the sentence a bit so that your meaning is explicitely "voiced". Richard 14:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help! Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 10:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I am galled. Not only by the comment but by your stubborn persistence that it remain. It is clearly offensive to at least 10 million people and should not be presented as mainstream Netherlandic thought. Wikipedia relies on the printed word and editors that give their opinions. But this is offensive, nothing else. The only possible rationale for inclusion is continued prejudice. You crassly disregard common standards with this unfortunate statement. Its educational value is Nil...Nada...Nothing. You can surround it with subtle verbs like percieved and dipicted but this does not change a thing. I am not pushing my POV---I am merely protecting it. I will continue to correct this type of slander...here and elsewhere. We are creating a new encyclopedia for the Ages. Not the Dark Ages, tho!-- Buster7 ( talk) 22:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
BTW...No "perhaps" about it!. It has EVERYTHING to do with my heritage-- Buster7 ( talk) 23:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm basically flying around WikiWorld by "the seat of my pants", not always sure that the way I'm doing things is right or the most efficient for all concerned. I guess that's obvious. I appreciate your advice. It will make me a better editor. Bedankt.-- Buster7 ( talk) 10:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I noticed you correcting a grammar mistake on Talk:Dutch customs and etiquette. If this were mainspace very good. However, it is general custom not to change talk page entries by others. While many corrections (like yours) will not be a problem, it is sometimes hard to interpret when you start changing the intention of the original editor. As Talk pages are only intended for other editors perfect grammar or style are not so much important, while the original psoting often is. So my advise, do not change texts on talk pages (except for your own). Cheers. Arnoutf ( talk) 19:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
I was just about to say the same about the singular article....a....but you said it better. Thanks! As you can see, I'm still giving editors grief over Grammar and Usage of the English Language.-- Buster7 ( talk) 07:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Richardw! I just saw this edit you made, and I am curious, what does that do? I tried searching for this in Wikipedia help and elsewhere, but could not find anything. I also tried looking at the page before and after your change, but I can't spot any visual difference. Thank you in advance for satisfying my curiosity! CosineKitty ( talk) 18:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I wanted to point out that the image Lone_Cypress.jpg is actually hosted on Wikimedia Commons, not here. The image is provided there for all people to use, under a free license. If you feel the image is not actually free of copyright, you should start a discussion there. Removing the image from the article here does not change its availability on Wikimedia Commons. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 11:53, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Brasstown, the community, resides inside the township of Brasstown, that covers the western portion of clay county. I would bet money that the tornado is described in relation to the location unincorporated community (as the township is a larger area and therefore less accurate for describing the location of anything, in addition to the fact that there's very little reference to the townships themselves that I've seen.)
user:ncboy2010, 10:00PM EST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.63.8 ( talk) 02:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the edit help. It was getting late and I wanted to make sure the references were there. Also, the memories of that day were starting to come back and I needed to take a break.-- DeknMike ( talk) 17:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello! I spotted your comment at user talk:Martijn Hoekstra:
although there is one (1) glyph for "ij", its use is officially discouraged. See (among other places) here and here.
— User:Richardw 09:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Could you please be a bit more verbose on this? Actually, I'm interested in second link: it deprecates the use of Unicode glyphs U+01C4 – U+01CC, which can't be properly written otherwise. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 09:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
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The Minor barnstar |
Minor edits are often overlooked, but are essential contributions to Wikipedia. Thanks for sticking around and making steady improvements to encyclopedia over the years. (You recently passed 1,000 edits to articles!) Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 18:49, 23 April 2012 (UTC) |
Hi. Nice to see you here. Jeff5102 ( talk) 07:51, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
O yes, maybe you can look here. I`ve gotten myself into a fine mess, as Oliver Hardy would say. ;) Regards, Jeff5102 ( talk) 12:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
The same can be said for your own grammar. It seems like you do not really know what you are doing, both grammatically and in the context of the article itself - unless of course you are a biased Dutch person (as usual). You seem to agree with the placement of words that do not seem correct at all. Do not undo any edits until a consensus has been agreed.-- Robedia ( talk) 14:55, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
See here for the SPI on Robedia. AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 01:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Your article does not contribute anything to the general discussion, Richardw, which is about the generally accepted Dutch culture as a whole. Accept it. Even Dutch academics admit it. Your article does not contain much information either to prove anything...even the cafe owner admitted it started as a joke. It is quite possible that her customers were Dutch tourists. The article does not prove that the "rude" customers are foreign...it is quite common for Dutch people after all to barge in. I have no need to go into further discussion with you anymore about this topic. It is childish trying to prove yourself...and frankly a waste of time.-- Nederlander90210 ( talk) 18:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC) P.S. Your behaviour leaves something to be desired and you are not an expert on grammar judging by your own edits... If you are Dutch, you are really not doing a good job proving that the Dutch are not rude.-- Nederlander90210 ( talk) 19:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
The reversion has been done. Hopefully the higher-ups can fix what's wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjnboy ( talk • contribs) 14:54, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Hello, thanks for your attempts to revert the edits by Terry Lee Marzell. However, you didn't revert the edits properly when there was more than one ... the undo feature can work with consecutive edits. see Help:Reverting for more information. Graham 87 16:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
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I didn't notice until now that there was a notice of "ten minutes later" (06:23 UTC) Had I noticed. I certainly wouldn't have reverted. TheGRVOfLightning ( talk) 11:18, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Hi Richard, I just noticed that user ßlackHeart (the one who claims that ß is a capital letter) also made this edit to IJ (Amsterdam). Personally I don't feel that such a remark is appropriate for an article about a body of water — or encyclopaedic at all. I don't think there is a need to state what the letter(s) do not stand for, especially in view of the detailed (and maybe also superfluous) explanation already given. What do you think? Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 20:04, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
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Dear Richardw,
I am sorry that I acted immature and annoyed you guys for "correcting" the IJ. You can look at my edit history: I no longer "correct" instances of capitalized IJ anymore (my most recent edit is to add the redirect page Ysbrand to IJsbrand. However, I am posting this message to ask you something:
Just a little backstory: I often joked around with my friends about the IJ, and we always pronounce capitalized IJ as I.J.
ßlackHeart ( talk) 22:12, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Quite interesting. A compilation of IJ can be found in this flickr page. I and my friends enjoyed going through the entire compilation, shouting I.J. whenever it occurs within a word, even though it is pronounced I. in most cases.
Just a fact, the dijgraph/trijgraph thing come from a Quora question. Dzs is also distinctive for being the only trigraph that is also a letter, but unlike IJ, I do not oppose the Dzs, or any multigraphs in Hungarian, since Hungarian is a highly phonetically consistent language (there is a simple one-to-one mapping to sounds and letter/letter combos with only a few irregular cases, unlike English), and some sounds have to map to multiple letter combinations, and then treat this combination as a single letter. The Dzs is also quite rare, since it does not have a "Hungarian Rune" counterpart, and it is almost exclusively used to transliterate the foreign 'J' sound or letter, such as those in English. I sometimes call the Dzs a Hungarian J, evne though this language also has a J character, which make the 'Y' sound. So in Hungarian, IJ could become I.Dzs. or something.
It seems that the special treatment of IJ is quite needless, and when I first saw it I was shocked. Interestingly, I spread this fact to my friends, and we all joked about anything which contain an IJ, such as "how much IJs do you have?" when we buy ice cream, and such. Or we completely omit the IJ, and pronounce the remainder of the word, such as pronouncing IJsbrand as Sbrand, and IJntema as 'nTema.
By the way, here is an instance of a regular Ij, from Candy Crush (official Dutch language), once the most popular mobile and Facebook game in the world, and is still among the most popular. This also applies for the mobile version.
Here are some more questions for you:
ßlackHeart ( talk) 21:11, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
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Transferred from User talk:89.172.185.158. See this edit and the next ones for context.
I really am surprised that saying 'you are a little more evolved than monkeys' is meant to be a compliment. Also, 'dutch people didn't do anything important for the civilisation' is offensive in its own way — that it is preceded by 'this is an offense' makes it even more dubious to put it like that. In the edit that was summarized that way, you removed (among other things) The Dutch are proud of their rich history in art — and yet you claim not to know who Rembrandt (Rembrandtdtdtdtt) was. To be honest, I am not sure if I should take your remarks seriously. The only more or less constructive edits you have done, resulted in eleven (!) references to prove the Croatian background of a missionary — a background that is not mentioned anywhere else in the article and the relevance of which remains unclear. The rest, I still perceive non-constructive. If you seriously doubt something, adding {{ Citation needed}} is usually a better way to start than removing text. Richard 17:09, 4 July 2017 (UTC) |
Humans and chimps have 98% of same genes. Also, 'dutch people didn't do anything important for the civilisation' this is one of the biggest truths ever. You like to think you are integrated and an example for all the other nations, but you are very nationalistic and conceited. 'this is an offense' means that the sentence I deleted is offensive to all those people who actually did something for the civilisation. You think you did something big for the civilisation. Chinese did, Japanese did, Germans (who Dutch people love a lot) did, and they do not brag themselves. Personally, I think Rembrandt's paintings are black as Ethiopians and have no quality. Why did I put so many sources? because when something is true, it is easy to find independent, reliable sources which confirm that truth. The whole article is silly, and almost every sentence there needs {{ Citation needed}}. -- 89.172.181.176 ( talk) 21:18, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Richardw, I am currently wondering is there any sites or books which show an IJ drop cap? If possible, can you provide me a page link in which one of the drop caps is an IJ? For books and non-web resources, can you post a snippet of the IJ drop cap (as long as it does not violate copyright?
I found a flickr link which contains many instances of the peculiarities of IJ: https://www.flickr.com/groups/ij/pool/
Have you gone to the Stedelijk Museum? Besides the unusual IJ which fits quite awkward in the logo, are there any instances of IJ which stay on one line where others do not in non-horizontal text? If possible, can you provide me a snippet?
ßlackHeart ( talk) 02:42, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I've reverted myself. Thought you had removed images but they don't exist. Mjroots ( talk) 17:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
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In Alsace, Rhine Franconian/Central German dialects are only spoken in Alsace bossue. TheCarlos1975 ( talk) 09:29, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
@ Richardw: I'd like to ask for your advice and help... Hi, I'm from Italy and I've seen you're a Dutch admin, I hope there's no problem if I speak English. I'm having troubles in Dutch wiki, there's a pair of corrections about Italian towns that should be done, but the Dutch users I met are biased towards me and don't want foreign users to interfere with Dutch wiki. I'm not trying forcing my "point of view", never ever: I'm providing correct information about the correct spelling of that pair of cities. So you don't have to trust my word, I well know that the whole wiki project isn't based on volunteer users but on primary sources, in fact I'm going to privide them to you, it'll be up to you to decide whether those sources are reliable or not, more or less authoritative than the ones "found" by the other Dutch users. But I strongly believe that you'll agree with they higher reliability. Obviously, should you disagree instead, I won't insist further. Consider that, without any offense for anyone, Italian mother-language speakers living in Italy since they were born have a better knowledge of Italian language, conventions and sources than any foreign person trying to understand them, exactly as Dutch speakers like you compared to Italian speakers like me have a better knowledge about Dutch language issues. For example, I'd never contest a Dutch user coming to it.wikipedia in order to ask Italian users to correct a pair of Dutch proper names from the "Y" spelling to the "IJ" spelling, I might try understanding more about this issue but I'd never doubt a mother-language speaker nor the sources he brings. This was the whole premise, now if you think you could be able to advise and help me I'll explain you what's this particular issue, I'll be shorter than I've been here since sources will speak for me. I'll wait for your reply. Thank you anyway for reading so far :-) 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 12:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Some remarks:
I hope I have made my point clear. ErikvanB ( talk) 17:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm glad you've come here to reply, ErikvanB, and I'll be glad to answer all of your points, forgive me for being long in this message.
I hope my replies were clear enough, I'm here to answer your doubts anyway. 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 21:11, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Comment: in fact, there are two cases. First, the case of 'Ruffr[éè]'. The proposed move was twofold: the accent was to be changed and the '-Mendola' was to be added. Although the first part (changing the accent) was later deemed less urgent, it became the main reason for denying the request. In the past, similar changes have been found controversial and/or counterproductive. That the request was made by someone working behind open proxies and the like, didn't help either. Justified or not, it always gives the impression that s/he is hiding something. Second, the case of Ciri[éè]. Erik renamed the page for reasons of internal consistency – that is, consistency within the Dutch Wikipedia. I don't know if I would have done that, but he did and he explained why he did it. My personal knowledge of Italian is extremely limited so I cannot say who's right and who's wrong – or if both opinions are justifiable. In any case, I can see that at the moment there is no consensus (not even between the users on the Italian Wikipedia) and that is a powerful regulating mechanism in the Dutch Wikipedia.
Some final thoughts for 46.249.38.152:
Richard 09:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for letting us discuss in your talk page, Richard.
About the first part of your comment: what's the reason for not moving "Ruffrè" to "Ruffrè-Mendola" if the accent is kept? And what was the consistency in nl.wikipedia you were talking about? He had to change also the template where the name of Cirié was written to recrate consistency after the renaming: there was already consistency, there's always been until then... Don't trust "me" for these issues, trust source and Italian users and admins who established which sources provide the official names of the cities, the names that have to be written in Wikipedia. 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 11:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Well, thank you for trying giving me a hand, if all Dutch users were as disposable as you towards foreign users everything would go better in Dutch wiki and not only there... Instead, alas, there're users proving themself totally biased towards us such as Moira, who instead of even just reading my rightful requests invites other users to ignore me, and Erik, who instead of replying to my arguments preferes talking to other users about me in a perfect "argumentum-ad-hominem" style... None of them has either recognised anything good I've tried doing or considered opening a discussion among Dutch user to verify whether the consensus if for Ruffrè-Mendola or Ruffrè and Ciriè or Cirié as I invited them to do (as they were scared of their lack of consensus)... It's not a genetic or environmental matter afterall, or I wouldn't have had the chance to meet users like you, Richard, and another pair of kind Dutch users I've found who couldn't help me despite agreeing with me because they were afraid of Ducth admins, it's just a matter of single persons, the worst but, alas, the most powerful... This is a defeat, not a victory, for Wikipedia... 46.249.38.152 ( talk) 17:59, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
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Sincere thanks for your help! Porteclefs ( talk) 12:38, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Hi Richardw. No worries. But, as you can see from the comments on the recently-closed move request on the Talk Page, there is considerable variation in how articles of this type open. There seems to be an irreconcilable conflict between using present tense for a flight that is still in operation and past tense to describe that a crash occurred in the past. User:Lord Belbury has made a fair point that the opening sentence should really sum up what the article is about. Any ideas? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 09:20, 28 September 2018 (UTC)
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Hi, Richardw! You may know more than I do on this matter, but I don't quite understand from your edit summary what you disapproved of regarding my recent edit to German language ( [5]). Thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 22:15, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
some German varieties or dialect groups... are alternatively referred to as "languages" and "dialects"is the grammar of that sentence. "Alternatively" to what? How about "are alternatively classified as "languages" or "dialects"? With alternatively, I think we want an "or" rather than an "and". Wolfdog ( talk) 21:52, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi Richard. I saw your comment at Colognian dialect. Do you know anything about the phonology? E.g. in the lead of that article, there's the pronunciation [kœlʃ²]. The superscript 2 is not IPA, and is not defined in that article, the phonology article, or the IPA key linked from {{ IPA-ksh}}. I assume it is supposed to indicate pitch accent or something, but it would be nice if we either defined it or replaced it with IPA (which is what we're supposed to be using). Do you have any idea what it is? Could you ping me if you respond? Thanks — kwami ( talk) 02:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
@ LiliCharlie: Thanks, Lili. Do you think we could characterize it as a falling tone, then? Syllables with falling tones tend to be short compared to others. (E.g., in Mandarin falling-tone syllables are shorter than those with level, rising or low/dipping tone, and many other languages are similar.) Not sure about the decreasing intensity, but that seems to match falling tone in other langs as well, at least in citation form. — kwami ( talk) 06:04, 21 January 2019 (UTC) I don't read Dutch, but this,
... suggests that stoot (abrupt?) = hoge (high) = accent 1 and sleep (level?) = val (falling) = accent 2. But the pitch traces in the next section contrast sleep and val, which means they can't both be accent 2. Was the order of the lead mixed up, with sleep = hoge = accent 1 and stoot = val = accent 2? And is their accent 2 what we've been marking with a superscript 2? — kwami ( talk) 06:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
Hi Richard, just your comment that a translation wasn't literal. I thought from that you might be familiar with the language.
@ Kbb2:, thank you for clarifying. I linked Schleifton in the IPA key to the description you provided. Since the key uses the half-long sign, that's what we should use in the articles too. Is the Schleifton 'marked' and the Schärfung 'unmarked', then? The terminology is rather confusing, with geschärfter being Schliefton (2) but ungeschärfter being Scharfung (1). Is that contradictory, like English inrounded = exolabial, Or do I have them backwards? Would you mind checking this table?
— kwami ( talk) 05:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Just for the diphthongs. Monophthongs take the long mark for Stoßton. I'm copying the table into the main article. — kwami ( talk) 13:00, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I assume the stress mark is meant to convey the tone accents, that the position, presence or choice of 1ary vs 2ary stress indicates whether it's T1 or T2, since tone accent only occurs on stressed syllables. Swedish and Norwegian have similar conventions. But ideally we'd want some way to convey this with the IPA, so that naive readers can have some idea of what's going on. If I had to guess, I'd think that in ⟨ˈkœɫːʃ⟩, the stress mark indicates that the syllable has a tonic accent, and the length mark tells us which one -- in this case T1, which of course contradicts the transcription ⟨kœlʃ²⟩. There are lots of walled-garden conventions for using digits to indicate tone. A lot of the SE Asia articles use 1 for low tone and 5 for high tone, but claim that's IPA, and it's a constant cleanup effort to convert them to actual IPA. But at least with Chao tone letters (bars) the conversion is straightforward. Digits don't work because the African convention is that 5 is low and 1 is high, or sometimes 2 and 1 for low and high, while in Mesoamerica 1 is low and 3 is high, or sometimes 4. Digits are opaque unless you're privy to the local convention, which is at odds with the entire idea of an international phonetic alphabet, and with the MOS where it's been decided that we should use the IPA and other international conventions. I think it probably won't be so difficult with Swedish and Norwegian -- one tone diacritic vs two, patterned after the standard language, and readers familiar with other dialects should be able to extrapolate the local realizations of the tone accents. For Colognian, the half-long vs long convention is misleading, but perhaps it's adequate. If we actually indicate tone, which I'd prefer, I assume we'd want either one tone diacritic, to be placed on the tonic syllable of tone-marked words, which evidently would be T1, or two contrasting diacritics for T1 and T2. Should we take this discussion to Kbb2? I don't know your background. I wouldn't want to decide something, go to the effort of converting the articles, only to have someone who really knows their stuff tell us we got it backwards. — kwami ( talk) 22:54, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Another question would be whether we bother with stress marks. If we have some convention for both T1 and T2, then it would be redundant. If we only indicate the 'marked' tone accent, then the stress mark would indicate the other. (But it could also mean whoever added the pronunciation didn't know the tone accent and so ignored it.) And then there's the question of secondary stress. AFAIK, that's never been demonstrated to be phonemic in any language. It certainly isn't in English, despite what American dictionaries claim (though thankfully not the OED anymore). — kwami ( talk) 03:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC) Based on that paper, given the author's opinion that it's unfortunate the conventional notation resembles IPA length marks (implying that they're not supposed to indicate length), and while waiting for Mr KEBAB to get back to us, I propose a circumflex for T1 and either just a stress mark or some other tonal diacritic, maybe a grave, for T2 -- say, zɛ̂i (T1) vs zɛ̀i (T2), or ˈzɛ̂i vs ˈzɛi. — kwami ( talk) 06:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC) |
Since this topic appears to have come to a standstill, I'm transferring it to talk:Colognian dialect#IPA. Please, do not make any more modifications here. Richard 12:42, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Richard! I am new to Wikipedia and did not know how talk pages work, I figured it out now. :)
Kind regards, David — Preceding unsigned comment added by DRVIP93 ( talk • contribs) 18:11, 23 January 2019 (UTC)