@ Anagram16: So here's my proposal: I've created this new user page User:Phil wink/Translation workshop and made a "form" that's mostly filled out, so you can see how I imagine it. Each section helps define what the result should look like. I thought I'd start with (as far as I can tell) a hard one.
The text is whatever we decide to work on. This is where we'll develop the finished translation, which will be primarily my responsibility, but of course you should contribute as you see fit. Whenever we both agree that the translation is ready (with Approved -- you'll see this when you edit the page), it can be pasted into the main article.
This will be your responsibility (what you see is just Google -- terrible, I trust -- and I've copied it above, too). Keep each line intact as much as possible. Feel free to include explanatory notes in [brackets]. Of course this does not need to be exquisite English, just clear.
Self-explanatory.
Here you and I can note which specific features we definitely want to reflect. If the target article were a metrical line (for example, Czech alexandrine), then the target prosody might be more detailed, and you might have to provide me with a full scansion of every line to be translated, since I couldn't be trusted to guess the stress patterns. But for an article like Spenserian stanza I think that level of exactitude is pointless. As a side note, my sense is that generally Wikipedians do not like any art being applied to in-house translations. They prefer a literal translation and nothing else. So in my view, the kind of work I have in mind will only be appropriate in contexts where some aspect of the form is under discussion in the article, so a formal paraphrase (as I call it) will be germane.
This too will be your responsibility. Best just to pick a few words: grand or colloquial, harsh or smooth, mournful or joyful, ironic or sincere. That sort of thing. Things like plays on words or archaic (or other specialized) language could be noted, too.
All the stuff above should not be signed with ~~~~
. It'll just get too messy -- we need to treat it like an article, just editing over each other's stuff as necessary. Here, in the "discussion" section, we can carry on signed conversation as needed. However,we could worry over this endlessly, so I'd mostly like to rely on brief notes under the topics above. General discussions about translation or the process or what to do next can occur here on the Talk page, but anything related to a specific poem should occur on the User page under the appropriate heading.
Possibly this is more than you bargained for, so I don't blame you if you choose to walk away. But I think it will be interesting for us, and valuable for Wikipedia, so I hope you'll give it a try. Thanks. Phil wink ( talk) 03:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I didn't expect, I would work for English Wikipedia so long, but now I want to do it longer. I didn't expect, I would translate anything into English, either, but I can try. I agree that Google translator is not much useful for poetry. Computers can launch rockets to the Moon, but still have problems with a single strophe. This is my attempt to put Vrchlický's poem into English.
If You think that it is good and can be a starting point for further work, let us place it on the Users page. I think it has both arms and legs (its a Polish expression for something complete). I noticed that for Google translator the word "měsíc" was a problem. It has two meanings: one is "month", the other "the moon". Perhaps so it was long ago in English - compare the word "honeymoon". The next problem was "vlasatice". It is a "comet". Please, enter the article "comet" at English Wikipedia and then go to Czech Wikipedia. Tha word "vlas" means "hair", so "vlasatice" is something with long hair.
I'm very pleased that you like it here. Your translation is of course way way better than the Google translation (for which "Chaos! Chaos!" is indeed a good description). I agree it has arms and legs... let's see if we can give it ears. I think that our ideas about verse translation in general are mostly compatible. However, while verse has many different functions in real life, on Wikipedia its primary function is to illustrate. So I believe the priorities for translation will be a little different in each article. That is, why is the verse there? what is it illustrating? This is why -- in articles about form -- I'm willing to bend the meaning a little to illustrate the form. This is also why I call these formal paraphrases rather than translations, just so reader expectations can be set. So yes, my goal is to produce a totally correct Spenserian stanza. This might not be the right goal for articles such as Jaroslav Vrchlický or Czech literature, but I think it is the right goal for Spenserian stanza. I'll start working on the formal paraphrase, and we'll see what happens... I did say I was starting with a hard one! Phil wink ( talk) 02:10, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
You're very kind. Thank you. I think I'll sit on it for a day or two... "see how it reads sober" as my friend likes to say... and I'm still weighing "pillars" versus "Gaia". Did you have an opinion on that? Yes, happy to try translation again. I was going to suggest a passage from "Edison", but it looks like there would be copyright problems that I wouldn't want to deal with. Let me know if something turns you on.
I do plan on adding a little more to the "alexandrine genus" article -- I think I can squeeze a few sentences about Slavic practice from Gasparov. But I want very few text examples in it (I may even remove the Dutch example) to maintain its character as an overview. And of course I will add paragraphs on Polish and Czech, with links.
Phil wink (
talk)
23:58, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
I think, the "pillars" are good. Nezval's Edison was translated, so we can make links to it. It is better to avoid copyright problems. There are so many earlier works to quote and translate, we don't need to risk such problems. You are right, "alexandrine genus" should be concise. Long quotations may be inserted into other "alexandrine" articles. Now You can sleep on Your translation and look at it once again in the morning. You translate sophisticated verse very well, but I wonder, if You can translate "badly" too. I mean translating a primitive text in such a way that it would sound "primitively", for example not as an Edmund Spenser's work but as a Thomas Wyatt's poem. There are poems that should not be made perfect in translation. ( Anagram16 ( talk) 00:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC))
I write about two things. The first one is, thanks for Richard Francis Burton's translation in Ottava rima. I was glad, when I found any English version, but Your quote is far better. The second thing is a poem that may be translated. It is a short thing by Adam Asnyk, named Uwielbienie (Adoration).
Umarły jeszcze będę wielbić ciebie!
I nie zapomnę, pod ziemią, czy w niebie,
O twej jasności;
Boś ty mi była, nie próżnem marzeniem,
Nie bańką zmysłów tęczowej nicości,
Lecz byłaś ducha ożywczem pragnieniem
Wiecznej miłości!
Nie otoczyłaś mnie pieszczotą senną,
Ani też falą spłynęłaś płomienną
Na pierś stęsknioną;
Nie wprowadziłaś mnie na róż posłanie,
Gdzie tylko ciała w upojeniu toną:
Lecz mi piękności dałaś pożądanie, —
Moc nieskończoną.
It is composed of two seven-line stanzas, rhymed aabcbcb. The structure of the strophe (11/11/5/11/11/11/5) is derived form the Sapphic stanza (11/11/11/5). It is typical for Polish poetry to use hendecasyllables together with pentasyllables in different combinations, (which can be a topic for a ten page article), for example 11a/11b/11a/5b/11c/11c (Słowacki stanza) which resembles a little Burns stanza. This is my attempt to express the meaning of the poem in English.
Although dead, I will still adore you!
And I will never forget, under the ground or in heaven,
About Your light.
For me you were not a vain dream,
Not a rainbow-coloured bubble of nothingness,
But my soul’s refreshing longing
For eternal love.
You didn’t surround me with caressing in my sleep,
You were not a flaming wave
To cover my breast (chest) waiting,
You didn’t invite me to bed covered with petals of rose,
Where only bodies sink in bliss,
But you gave me lust for beauty,
An everlasting power.
The poem is addressed to a woman. I think it is deeper than romantic love poems. Of course it is up to You to decide, whether to translate or abandon it. Possible target articles could be "septet", "hendecasyllable", "pentasyllable" or "Sapphic stanza - inspirations".( Anagram16 ( talk) 22:24, 21 August 2016 (UTC))
o o o S s | o o o o S s
/ × × / / -or alternatively- / × × / ×
o o o S s
In Poland we have thousands Sapphic stanzas and very little Alcaic stanzas. Even Latin poems are not translated in the form. Stanisław Trembecki wrote one poem building a fully syllabic strophe 11/11/9/10. Antoni Lange wrote a poem named "Alcais stanza" but his strophes are not fully Alcaics, as the third line is always sSsSsSsS instead of sSsSsSsSs. The best Alcaic stanzas in Polish literature are Adam Mickiewicz's ones, but they are written in Latin:
So, to summarize, if this is to be an illustration for Sapphic stanza (which seems like the direction we're going):
Do you agree with this assessment? In other news, I'll just mention (since we seem to be on the brink of big changes to Sapphic stanza): in my view, the current article has way too many English verse illustrations, and if I have time I'll go through and delete probably at least half of them. This doesn't mean we shouldn't also add some more non-English examples, but (again in my view) it's now just a laundry-list with not enough guidance on why this or that example is meaningful. Phil wink ( talk) 20:46, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
The poem is rhymed aaR bbR... with the word "earlier" in the R position. In English Wikipedia article about the poet there is link to the translation by Walter Whipple (perhaps excellent, but not rhymed). ( Anagram16 ( talk) 23:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC))
I was not sure, if my work for English Wikipedia is needed, but now I think it is. I found an old English anthology of Polish poetry and it seems that the author of introduction thought that Jan Kochanowski (who wrote Laments), Andrzej Kochanowski (who translated Aeneid) and Piotr Kochanowski (who translated The Jerusalem Delivered and Orland Enraged) were all one person. I can't believe. Perhaps there is still much to do.( Anagram16 ( talk) 17:39, 23 August 2016 (UTC))
I am not going to waste Your time, so I end quickly. I found a translation of Juliusz Słowacki's Hymn, which is an excellent example of a strophe based on the Sapphic stanza (and sesta rima): 11a/11b/11a/5b/11c/5c. It is availlable at Bartleby.com [1]( Anagram16 ( talk) 22:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC))
There are also many strophes derived from it, for example 11/11/5 ( Cyprian Kamil Norwid), 11/11/11/11/5 ( Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/5 ( Juliusz Słowacki, Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/8/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/5/11/5... (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka). We have even ottava rimas with one pentasyllable.
added text + formal paraphrase by [[User:Phil wink]]
into the edit summary.@ Anagram16: So here's my proposal: I've created this new user page User:Phil wink/Translation workshop and made a "form" that's mostly filled out, so you can see how I imagine it. Each section helps define what the result should look like. I thought I'd start with (as far as I can tell) a hard one.
The text is whatever we decide to work on. This is where we'll develop the finished translation, which will be primarily my responsibility, but of course you should contribute as you see fit. Whenever we both agree that the translation is ready (with Approved -- you'll see this when you edit the page), it can be pasted into the main article.
This will be your responsibility (what you see is just Google -- terrible, I trust -- and I've copied it above, too). Keep each line intact as much as possible. Feel free to include explanatory notes in [brackets]. Of course this does not need to be exquisite English, just clear.
Self-explanatory.
Here you and I can note which specific features we definitely want to reflect. If the target article were a metrical line (for example, Czech alexandrine), then the target prosody might be more detailed, and you might have to provide me with a full scansion of every line to be translated, since I couldn't be trusted to guess the stress patterns. But for an article like Spenserian stanza I think that level of exactitude is pointless. As a side note, my sense is that generally Wikipedians do not like any art being applied to in-house translations. They prefer a literal translation and nothing else. So in my view, the kind of work I have in mind will only be appropriate in contexts where some aspect of the form is under discussion in the article, so a formal paraphrase (as I call it) will be germane.
This too will be your responsibility. Best just to pick a few words: grand or colloquial, harsh or smooth, mournful or joyful, ironic or sincere. That sort of thing. Things like plays on words or archaic (or other specialized) language could be noted, too.
All the stuff above should not be signed with ~~~~
. It'll just get too messy -- we need to treat it like an article, just editing over each other's stuff as necessary. Here, in the "discussion" section, we can carry on signed conversation as needed. However,we could worry over this endlessly, so I'd mostly like to rely on brief notes under the topics above. General discussions about translation or the process or what to do next can occur here on the Talk page, but anything related to a specific poem should occur on the User page under the appropriate heading.
Possibly this is more than you bargained for, so I don't blame you if you choose to walk away. But I think it will be interesting for us, and valuable for Wikipedia, so I hope you'll give it a try. Thanks. Phil wink ( talk) 03:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I didn't expect, I would work for English Wikipedia so long, but now I want to do it longer. I didn't expect, I would translate anything into English, either, but I can try. I agree that Google translator is not much useful for poetry. Computers can launch rockets to the Moon, but still have problems with a single strophe. This is my attempt to put Vrchlický's poem into English.
If You think that it is good and can be a starting point for further work, let us place it on the Users page. I think it has both arms and legs (its a Polish expression for something complete). I noticed that for Google translator the word "měsíc" was a problem. It has two meanings: one is "month", the other "the moon". Perhaps so it was long ago in English - compare the word "honeymoon". The next problem was "vlasatice". It is a "comet". Please, enter the article "comet" at English Wikipedia and then go to Czech Wikipedia. Tha word "vlas" means "hair", so "vlasatice" is something with long hair.
I'm very pleased that you like it here. Your translation is of course way way better than the Google translation (for which "Chaos! Chaos!" is indeed a good description). I agree it has arms and legs... let's see if we can give it ears. I think that our ideas about verse translation in general are mostly compatible. However, while verse has many different functions in real life, on Wikipedia its primary function is to illustrate. So I believe the priorities for translation will be a little different in each article. That is, why is the verse there? what is it illustrating? This is why -- in articles about form -- I'm willing to bend the meaning a little to illustrate the form. This is also why I call these formal paraphrases rather than translations, just so reader expectations can be set. So yes, my goal is to produce a totally correct Spenserian stanza. This might not be the right goal for articles such as Jaroslav Vrchlický or Czech literature, but I think it is the right goal for Spenserian stanza. I'll start working on the formal paraphrase, and we'll see what happens... I did say I was starting with a hard one! Phil wink ( talk) 02:10, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
You're very kind. Thank you. I think I'll sit on it for a day or two... "see how it reads sober" as my friend likes to say... and I'm still weighing "pillars" versus "Gaia". Did you have an opinion on that? Yes, happy to try translation again. I was going to suggest a passage from "Edison", but it looks like there would be copyright problems that I wouldn't want to deal with. Let me know if something turns you on.
I do plan on adding a little more to the "alexandrine genus" article -- I think I can squeeze a few sentences about Slavic practice from Gasparov. But I want very few text examples in it (I may even remove the Dutch example) to maintain its character as an overview. And of course I will add paragraphs on Polish and Czech, with links.
Phil wink (
talk)
23:58, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
I think, the "pillars" are good. Nezval's Edison was translated, so we can make links to it. It is better to avoid copyright problems. There are so many earlier works to quote and translate, we don't need to risk such problems. You are right, "alexandrine genus" should be concise. Long quotations may be inserted into other "alexandrine" articles. Now You can sleep on Your translation and look at it once again in the morning. You translate sophisticated verse very well, but I wonder, if You can translate "badly" too. I mean translating a primitive text in such a way that it would sound "primitively", for example not as an Edmund Spenser's work but as a Thomas Wyatt's poem. There are poems that should not be made perfect in translation. ( Anagram16 ( talk) 00:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC))
I write about two things. The first one is, thanks for Richard Francis Burton's translation in Ottava rima. I was glad, when I found any English version, but Your quote is far better. The second thing is a poem that may be translated. It is a short thing by Adam Asnyk, named Uwielbienie (Adoration).
Umarły jeszcze będę wielbić ciebie!
I nie zapomnę, pod ziemią, czy w niebie,
O twej jasności;
Boś ty mi była, nie próżnem marzeniem,
Nie bańką zmysłów tęczowej nicości,
Lecz byłaś ducha ożywczem pragnieniem
Wiecznej miłości!
Nie otoczyłaś mnie pieszczotą senną,
Ani też falą spłynęłaś płomienną
Na pierś stęsknioną;
Nie wprowadziłaś mnie na róż posłanie,
Gdzie tylko ciała w upojeniu toną:
Lecz mi piękności dałaś pożądanie, —
Moc nieskończoną.
It is composed of two seven-line stanzas, rhymed aabcbcb. The structure of the strophe (11/11/5/11/11/11/5) is derived form the Sapphic stanza (11/11/11/5). It is typical for Polish poetry to use hendecasyllables together with pentasyllables in different combinations, (which can be a topic for a ten page article), for example 11a/11b/11a/5b/11c/11c (Słowacki stanza) which resembles a little Burns stanza. This is my attempt to express the meaning of the poem in English.
Although dead, I will still adore you!
And I will never forget, under the ground or in heaven,
About Your light.
For me you were not a vain dream,
Not a rainbow-coloured bubble of nothingness,
But my soul’s refreshing longing
For eternal love.
You didn’t surround me with caressing in my sleep,
You were not a flaming wave
To cover my breast (chest) waiting,
You didn’t invite me to bed covered with petals of rose,
Where only bodies sink in bliss,
But you gave me lust for beauty,
An everlasting power.
The poem is addressed to a woman. I think it is deeper than romantic love poems. Of course it is up to You to decide, whether to translate or abandon it. Possible target articles could be "septet", "hendecasyllable", "pentasyllable" or "Sapphic stanza - inspirations".( Anagram16 ( talk) 22:24, 21 August 2016 (UTC))
o o o S s | o o o o S s
/ × × / / -or alternatively- / × × / ×
o o o S s
In Poland we have thousands Sapphic stanzas and very little Alcaic stanzas. Even Latin poems are not translated in the form. Stanisław Trembecki wrote one poem building a fully syllabic strophe 11/11/9/10. Antoni Lange wrote a poem named "Alcais stanza" but his strophes are not fully Alcaics, as the third line is always sSsSsSsS instead of sSsSsSsSs. The best Alcaic stanzas in Polish literature are Adam Mickiewicz's ones, but they are written in Latin:
So, to summarize, if this is to be an illustration for Sapphic stanza (which seems like the direction we're going):
Do you agree with this assessment? In other news, I'll just mention (since we seem to be on the brink of big changes to Sapphic stanza): in my view, the current article has way too many English verse illustrations, and if I have time I'll go through and delete probably at least half of them. This doesn't mean we shouldn't also add some more non-English examples, but (again in my view) it's now just a laundry-list with not enough guidance on why this or that example is meaningful. Phil wink ( talk) 20:46, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
The poem is rhymed aaR bbR... with the word "earlier" in the R position. In English Wikipedia article about the poet there is link to the translation by Walter Whipple (perhaps excellent, but not rhymed). ( Anagram16 ( talk) 23:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC))
I was not sure, if my work for English Wikipedia is needed, but now I think it is. I found an old English anthology of Polish poetry and it seems that the author of introduction thought that Jan Kochanowski (who wrote Laments), Andrzej Kochanowski (who translated Aeneid) and Piotr Kochanowski (who translated The Jerusalem Delivered and Orland Enraged) were all one person. I can't believe. Perhaps there is still much to do.( Anagram16 ( talk) 17:39, 23 August 2016 (UTC))
I am not going to waste Your time, so I end quickly. I found a translation of Juliusz Słowacki's Hymn, which is an excellent example of a strophe based on the Sapphic stanza (and sesta rima): 11a/11b/11a/5b/11c/5c. It is availlable at Bartleby.com [1]( Anagram16 ( talk) 22:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC))
There are also many strophes derived from it, for example 11/11/5 ( Cyprian Kamil Norwid), 11/11/11/11/5 ( Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/5 ( Juliusz Słowacki, Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/8/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/5/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka), 11/5/11/5... (Maria Konopnicka), 11/11/11/11/11/11/5 (Maria Konopnicka). We have even ottava rimas with one pentasyllable.
added text + formal paraphrase by [[User:Phil wink]]
into the edit summary.