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Attention, ALL: Please place abortion-article/discussion metadata in this section. Examples follow (create subsections as needed). See my special page User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate for arguments about the topic. Thank you! V ( talk) 08:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
You were former involved in a discussion in
Talk:Abortion#More reliable references so, if you're still interested about the outcome of that discussion, I ask you to express your opinion in
Talk:Abortion#Assessing the current agreement status--
Nutriveg (
talk)
04:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
In light of the seemingly endless disputes over their respective titles, a neutral mediator has crafted a proposal to rename the two major abortion articles ( pro-life/anti-abortion movement, and pro-choice/abortion rights movement) to completely new names. The idea, which is located here, is currently open for opinions. As you have been a contributor in the past to at least one of the articles, your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.
The hope is that, if a consensus can be reached on the article titles, the energy that has been spent debating the titles of the articles here and here can be better spent giving both articles some much needed improvement to their content. Please take some time to read the proposal and weigh in on the matter. Even if your opinion is simple indifference, that opinion would be valuable to have posted.
To avoid concerns that this notice might violate WP:CANVASS, this posting is being made to every non-anon editor who has edited either page (or either page's respective talk page) since 1 July 2010, irrespective of possible previous participation at the mediation page. HuskyHuskie ( talk) 22:15, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Don't let the heat get under your collar at the mediation page. He who keeps calm gets a more sympathetic reading. Binksternet ( talk) 22:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Your comments at the pro-life/pro-choice mediation were highly uncivil and I have reverted them. NYyankees51 ( talk) 19:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
18:55, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
20:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC) 14:30, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 16:59, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Opposition to the legalisation of abortion". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by July 10, 2011.
Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
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01:56, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Abortion and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
Thanks, Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 03:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
The request for formal mediation concerning Opposition to the legalisation of abortion, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.
For the Mediation Committee,
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21:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
(Delivered by
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An arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Evidence. Please add your evidence by August 26, 2011, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 05:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
An arbitration case regarding all articles related to the subject of Abortion has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
In addition:
For the Arbitration Committee,
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Penwhale |
dance in the air and
follow his steps
04:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Talk:Cold fusion is a useful link. And any other interesting links that I want to keep handy will be inserted here.
Original text of this Section now begins:
Its true that physicist take issue with cold fusion over a lack of theory or first principles. As a chemist I have no issue with a lack of theory. Chemists work almost exclusively with empirically derived "trends". From my perspective physicists first principles don't hold much promise for advancing chemistry. This is exemplified by the utter lack of progressed derived from computational chemistry, something that was expected to hold great promise 10-15 years ago. That neither here nor there. Since chemist work empirically sorting through others results is an important part of our game. We consider researchers reputation, institution, and journal when present with extraordinary claims. In early CF research many of the advocates were of questionable repute, like John Bockris who was a frauds not only in CF but other aspects of his research. Then reputable individuals published "negative" results in reputable journals. This is publishing of "negative" results is extremely rarer for chemistry. Generally we only report positive results, neglecting to spend time on our failed ideas and attempts. The criticism direct at CF ended its relationship with main stream science. Now CF mostly exists in places like "infinite energy" which no serious scientist would take seriously, from their perspective its a glorified blog or zine. I'm not saying that CF will never see be brought to fruition but WP has a responsibility to present the mainstream as mainstream and fringe as fringe.-- OMCV ( talk) 00:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to express the opinion that transmutation does not necessarily involve fusion, and therefore any discussion of it in the Cold Fusion article should be kept to a bare minimum. Certain transmutations are widely known and accepted (e.g. carbon-14 becomes nitrogen-14, potassium-40 becomes either argon-40 or calcium-40, uranium-238 spits out an alpha particle and becomes thorium-234). Other transmutations of a huge variety are acceptable but rare (and are caused by interactions with cosmic rays or ray-showers that happen to penetrate to the bottom of the atmosphere, or caused by an occasional naturally occurring loose neutron, or caused by an occasionally absorbed solar neutrino). I've read that today's instruments are so sensitive that in various top-of-the-line laboratories, the researchers have to obtain steel from ships that were sunk before the end of World War2, because all the steel made since is too radioactive and would interfere with the measurements they want to make. So how many of those claims of transmutation-detection are simply the result of modern instruments discovering a cosmic ray or equivalent event has messed with some of the experimental hardware? One final point is that in MOST atoms, the nucleus is buried under layers of electron shells, that keep nuclei from getting anywhere near each other at ordinary temperatures, and makes classical transmutations like turning base metal into gold practically impossible by any ordinary means short of a particle accelerator. The biggest exception is hydrogen, which only has one electron. That's why transmutation of hydrogen to helium (otherwise called "fusion") is a much more likely thing; under any ordinary conditions you might care to specify, it is far more possible for a hydrogen to lose its lone electron, and have its nucleus exposed for interactions, than it is for any other element to lose its multiplicity of electrons, and have its nucleus exposed for interactions. V ( talk) 05:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Apparently for nearly 20 years the theorists have been trying to explain how two nuclei can fuse when still inside their electron shells. They've been failing for nearly 20 years, too. That's plenty reason for me to insist that "It makes no sense to assume fusion is the source of the claimed/observed excess heat, if that very first question cannot be answered." (The "first question" was about how to get those nuclei outside their electron shells.) I got the impression from what you wrote that for some unknown-to-me reason the theorists were SUPPOSED to keep butting their heads against the problem of finding a way for the Strong Force to work across atom-width dimensions, more than 10,000 times its normal effective range. I'm quite aware that if the nuclei DO escape their shells, then the "typical" fusion mechanism (involving very high speed) has to contend with electrostatic repulsions that can be millions or billions of times the strength of electron-shell repulsion. But your pointing-out of that makes no sense if the nuclei never approach each other closely enough (for such repulsion to exist), because they start out stuck inside their electron shells!!! SO, (A) if "Something" enhances the Strong Force's range enough, then, sure, it won't matter if the nuclei are inside atoms; they are going to fuse regardless of however-much electric repulsion is going to happen while pulled together, yanked out of their atoms. OR (B) the repulsion you talked about is nonsense, because it doesn't exist and cannot exist until AFTER the nuclei escape their electron shells. So, why put the cart before the horse, and insist that nucleus-repulsion/fusing problem has to be solved before the nucleus-escape problem? The way that Hypothesis did it, the proposed solution to the "easier" problem led straight to a possible solution to the difficult problem. Do you have an objection to that? V ( talk) 07:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
{this section cloned from the history of another talk page} V ( talk) 14:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I can't remember what the 1989 DOE panel split was, sorry. In 2004 it was one member convinced, about a third somewhat convinced, and the rest unconvinced. 69.228.220.30 ( talk) 21:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
The CCS is simple to understand. It simply says that between the time the experiment is calibrated, and the time that experimental data is collected, an instability in the experiment has occurred and thus the prior calibration is no longer valid. In other words expressed mathematically, at time t0, the experimenter determines the calibration equation is Pout = 5 * X + 3. Then at time t1 a change occurs, such that at time t2, when the experimenter measures the unknown conditions, the true calibration equation (unknown to the researcher) is Pout = 4 * X + 3. Clearly, if you multiply x by 5 when the correct (at that time) value is 4, you will get the wrong Pout. This is why measuring the calibration equation at several times to statistically assess the stability of those constants is a necessity. --Kirk Shanahan
Man, I'm afraid that the discussion is over :( If you can't find some better source, then there is no chance at all that the addition is ever made to the article. There is a time at wikipedia when you have to step back from the discussion or start facing accusations of beating dead horses, etc., I think that you have reached that point with the electron shell thing. I wouldn't bother to restore that section, just make a new one when/if you find a source explicetaly making the link between electron shells and cold fusion (and make sure it's a good source making a clear direct link before re-opening the theme).
Here you have a permanent link to the discussion right before it was removed, so you can reference it [3] -- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
P.D.:And... hum.... about this "(...)IS there a conspiracy by CF-detractors, to keep any data out of the article that might someday become related to the solutions to the main problems? Why else would Art do his latest lie-of-omission(...)" [4], the answer is no, there is not such conspiracy.... Please, you are getting very involved, and you are starting to skip the assuming good faith thing. That's not a good thing at all, at this pace you'll finally insult someone and get yourself blocked for incivility. The others are right on the consensus thing: you have given your reasons and your sources, and you have failed to convince the other editors, so you don't have consensus for your change.... Please take this as good intentioned advice. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Enric was right, Objectivist, you are treading on thin ice. You might get away with it time after time until the "wrong" admin notices it, and you are then blocked. There are some block-happy admins who watch the CF article. Look, I want your participation. If I wanted to see you blocked, I'd not bother to warn you, I'd sit back and watch it happen. So, please, be careful. "lie of omission" is uncivil, you could be blocked for that alone. Naval is right. There is no conspiracy, though there are cooperating editors to some degree, an anti-pseudoscience virtual cabal. ArbComm is aware of it, but it's tricky to address because some very popular editors are involved. So, patience, one careful, baby step at a time. Or else, watch out! That stove is hot.
It's possible to get blocked in this field even if you walk the policy line very carefully. Don't make it easy for them. If you are blocked for *following* policy, such as NPOV, and not for *violating* it, such as WP:CIVIL, it can be appealed, probably successfully. But with clear offenses, there is little hope, the community will take one look at those edits and say, "Nothing to do here, next case!" -- Abd ( talk) 16:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
About the "where to complain about this" question you made at Talk:Cold fusion, try WP:RS/N for establishing the reliability of the source, Wikipedia:Village pump for discussing with a wider community, or WP:AN to ask that an admin does something. However, honestly, I don't think that any of these avenues works unless you can get clearly better sources first, and I can't really recommend you that you even attempt them. You are bound to get only a lot of stress from this.... -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:11, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! -- SineBot ( talk) 15:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
You wrote, Look, there is a difference between denouncing an action and denouncing a person. I'm responding to you here, because I don't want to clutter Enric's Talk page with what might be considered useless and tendentious debate.
You are absolutely right that there is a difference, but you crossed the line from one to the other. If you won't hear this from me, what will it take? Because you responded with that comment, and what followed, I'm placing this here. I'm not posting a formal warning here, because the last thing I want to see is that you are blocked, unless the behavior continued after ample opportunity to reform it. However, all this history is visible to anyone who looks, and, let me put it this way: someone may indeed look and if you are right, that you didn't cross that line, you could still be blocked, if it merely looks that way. Wikipedia is a community of human beings, and it respects human process, not necessarily "correct argumentation." Yes, in theory, cogent arguments should prevail, but, in reality, as with nearly all organized human activity, politics matters. Wikipedia operates on "rough consensus," and the body of editors who participate in the consensus is variable. If it happens that a dispute escalates, increasing numbers of editors and administrators will review it, but many of these won't spend the time to carefully investigate and weigh evidence, purely. Rather, many or most -- sometimes even all! -- will make a snap judgment. So if it looks like a personal attack, it is quite likely to be treated that way, even if, for some technical reason, or even if in reality there is no attack involved. You continued:
I know what I was denouncing, and I truly think it was the correct conclusion, because if Art had a valid argument that could "put me in my place", proving that I am dead wrong about [topic elided, it doesn't matter], then I fully expect he would have posted such an argument. Since he didn't, I get to assume he didn't have one, and thereby lost the debate, except he didn't want to admit it.
Your concept of Wikipedia editorial process is radically misguided. We discuss possible edits and article considerations. This isn't a debate contest, with winners and losers. The editor gave his opinion, with what I called a "marginally uncivil" edge to it. He didn't impugn your integrity, he merely wrote that you were "dead wrong." People, including myself, and, I'm sure, you, can be very, very wrong about a thing. The editor didn't respond further, and he had utterly no responsibility to do so. He's not on trial, he's not in a contest, and I don't see that his goal was to "put you in your place." He saw your argument as seriously misguided, he told you so, and then moved on to whatever else interests or occupies him. You can assume anything you want, but if you fail to assume good faith, and show it in your edits, you can be blocked. AGF used to be considered a policy; it was demoted, not because it wasn't important, but because it can be hard to judge.
Above, I suggested a course of action for you if you wish to do more than debate in a contest with, in your own mind, "winners" and "losers." I also suggested that you redact statements that could be seen as personal attacks, with strike-out. You are free to take my advice or not, but wikipedia is also free to, as I wrote before, "spit you out like a bad grape." There is no debate between the grape and other grapes. Each grape is judged on its own merits. If an admin looks at your actions, and they "taste bad," the admin may block you, probably starting with short blocks. If you continue, those will eventually become indefinite, and can turn into a ban. From experience, I can assure you that claims you were right will be of practically no effect at all, unless you are supported by many editors. And you won't get there the way you have been proceeding.
Actions speak louder than words, remember? If he and like-minded editors had simply stopped posting to that section, that would have been more intellectually honest, and it would have eventually been archived of old age. Instead, to enforce his mere opinion regarding the proposed improvement, he chose the course (the History clearly shows it was he who deleted it) that makes it much more difficult for any new editors to see that debate, and his losing of that debate; the accumulation of new editors well-informed on the topic eventually should lead to the proposed improvement getting implemented, due to there being no valid reason not to do it.
Fast archiving of Talk is common. Deletion is less common and less accepted. Sure, the discussion was deleted. You then reverted. Not great, but acceptable. Then [ [5] you were reverted], not by the first editor. You responded with a brief but contentious edit. You are dealing with several highly experienced editors. You want to know where to complain? Well, read the dispute resolution guideline. For something considered an emergency, you could go to WP:AN/I. I wouldn't recommend it, you'd get slaughtered, so to speak. You want to do something without risk of being considered disruptive? Read that WP:DR. Follow it. Start with rigorously civil Talk page discussion, attempting to find agreement with an editor you disagree with. Don't take this beyond a point of decision, and don't insist. Then, if you aren't satisfied, get help. Ask an experienced editor to look at the situation and advise you. Without being asked, several editors tried to help you. You haven't shown much sign of listening. You could change that. Nobody is going to force you to change, it's up to you. If you want to be effective, though, I'd suggest you start listening, carefully.
Now, what would I do if my Talk content were deleted? Please realize I've been here and have dealt with it. What I'd do depends on the specific details, and how important it is to me. There are good grounds for reversing that deletion; for starters, it wasn't just one editor whose commments were deleted. In addition, fast archiving may have been more appropriate. But, remember, this is a community where we seek consensus. There are plenty of editors who don't do that, but, if we want to improve the project, we can't -- we mustn't -- imitate them. So, first of all, we need to understand what was right about the deletion. Is there some way of dealing with this without losing what was right about it? In some cases, I've simply written the discussion to the archive. Someone wants to edit war over that, well, they will probably lose. But it could be disruptive. Anything better?
Sure, I think so, but it isn't commonly done. Let me suggest how you might do it. Go to history, find the deleted material, and copy it to a file in your user space, you could create or use User:Objectivist/Sandbox. Edit it to boil it down, to create a concise summary of what you think is important about it. When you have that, put it on the Talk page with an appropriate section title (the original one?) and an introduction that says that this is your summary of what had been deleted. There should be a permanent link to the full discussion that was deleted. And state explicitly that you will accept fast archiving of this copy. And I highly recommend avoiding any further debate on the subject at this point. I've elsewhere suggested how to approach editing the article. Be ready and prepared to accept consensus even if you think it to be "dead wrong."
As to the link to a permanent copy of the full discussion, here is the wikitext you would use: [http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Cold_fusion&oldid=270296063#Incompatibilities_with_established_physics permanent link].
Thus would the existence of the discussion have a use; it would be a lie to say it was useless (well, it would not be a lie for a detractor to say, "It is useless to my vested interests...").
Dead wrong, and the kind of assumption of bad faith that could get you blocked. It would not be a lie. It might be wrong, or it might be right. In the short term, it is clearly correct. No edit to the article resulted, if I've got it right. However, you are also correct that there may be a benefit in the long run, but the benefit will be more if the points made there are made much more concisely, otherwise they may never be read again by anyone. If you want to be successful here, pursue your goal while at the same time considering and addressing objections. Insisting on being correct is highly counterproductive. It isn't the correctness that is the problem, it's how it is asserted.
The deletion diminishes the possibility of Art's opinion getting overruled by people possessing valid data, and is exactly the type of action that can be expected of the board-bashing losing chess-player, or of Religious Authority (how many WARS did they start, preceding even the Hebrew invasion of the Promised Land, to shut up their competition?). Enric, I repeat, "what [they] believe is irrelevant here; what [they] can prove is relevant." --paraphrased from the deleted debate.
V, you have no idea how this place works, in contentious areas. You have a vision, expressed above, of a kind of war between truth and "authority," and it contaminates your understanding of what is going on. There are administrators here, with some apparent "authority," but, in fact, they have little control, individually. There is legal authority with the WikiMedia Foundation, but they are almost entirely hands-off. The real power is in the community, which is largely asleep, from my point of view, but it wakes up enough, sometimes, to do some good, or sometimes only enough to do some damage. It's like the rest of the world, V. You've focused on one editor, who is not an administrator and who has no inherent power over you. He did nothing that you could not do yourself. He deleted some Talk that he thought pointless. You restored it. Somebody else, not an administrator also, undid your restoral. Now, that deletion stood. Why? Basically, it was two to one. You failed to convince anyone else that the text should remain. If you had continued to insist, all by yourself, you'd have been blocked. Not because you were "wrong," and certainly not because you were "right." Because you'd have been edit warring, which, beyond a certain point, is almost automatically blockworthy. I've seen many editors blocked because they were insisting on something that they thought was policy. And they were right. It was policy, except that they forgot something. They were violating policy by edit warring, and the policy they were "enforcing" was a content policy, not a behavioral policy.
Wikipedia content is not ruled by "truth." It's partly ruled by verifiability in reliable sources, but the real authority is editorial consensus. If you can find consensus, you can do almost anything here. But if you can't find even one person to agree with you, how likely are you to find consensus? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which can be a rather dull class of publication. I've come across many examples where I know something, with certainty, that is known by everyone with reasonable knowledge of a field. And I can't insist on it being in articles because there isn't publication in reliable source, there are only, for example, posts to mailing lists and a known consensus in the involved community. Now, a lot of this kind of knowledge does end up in Wikipedia, simply because nobody contests it. In a controversial article, however, being watched by many editors with opposing points of view, text based on synthesis or personal knowledge has a very short half-life.
I'm not sure why I've bothered to write this. Luck of the draw, I guess. Take what you like and leave the rest, I've only done my best to explain to you the situation you face, and the likely consequences of continuing on the path you've traced. As my late uncle used to say, "Don't take yourself so seriously." And you might read WP:DGAF. It's one of the best essays about how to survive here. -- Abd ( talk) 01:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Pardon me for butting in here; what is your "different objective"? Olorinish ( talk) 17:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Olorinish ( talk) 13:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
What is the obsession with lenr-canr.org it is a combination of reprinted articles and blog. The self-published blog doesn't meet WP:V for anything but Jed's opinion. Jed's opinion or anyone else operating out of a garage by an airport doesn't warrant inclusion in an encyclopedia. Any editors can still add the articles which lenr-canr.org keeps as reprints. I imagine Jed has paper copies of most, if not all, the citations included in the the CF article. Abd and V it would be best if you took you effort where OR was welcomed. By the way I'm glad you have spent your life thinking/combining ideas V. The idea that if we all think its true will make it true just doesn't fly on Wikipedia and combining ideas is the definition of OR. If you pushed that before on other pages than the citation will eventually be found or your material reverted.
So I see I missed the point in a way. You think we should have external links to these places but that would be legitimizing them. Any honest scientist will quickly identify these websites as fringe efforts to misrepresenting themselves as mainstream science. We should no sooner link to newenergytimes.com and lenr-canr.org then link to theresonanceproject.org on a page dealing with quantum mechanics, or go-here.nl and waterfuelconverters.com on page dealing with energy/electrolysis. Have a good one.-- OMCV ( talk) 01:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion#Other_comments
I hope you don't mind. Perhaps you'd like to indicate a choice among the versions. I'm trying to reduce complex questions to simple ones: of two known versions (where some edit warring started), which is better. It's always possible to find some fault, real or otherwise, with a piece of text, but the real question is always whether one version is better than another. And then, to avoid restricting the matter to two versions, I created a subsection for the "current version" if it's different, or to show support for any other version.
And I suggested Approval voting for this process, especially because Version 1 (my version) definitely can be improved, even improved greatly, both to solidify sourcing and to balance it better. Storms himself, however, did attempt to present this information in quite a balanced way, even conceding points that skeptics, were they not so busy denying Storms himself, might think, "Wow! He said that?" Instead, biological transformation just sends them off the charts. But Storms is right. There is experimental work that seems to show biological transformation so, while it's not very much confirmed, it could be, and it would be useful if theory could account for the possibility. If I were him, I'd have left it out, but Storms mentioning it is also reasonable.
The option of "voting" for more than one would allow a skeptic, for example, to vote for Hipocrite's reversion, effectively, as an improvement over mine, without getting nailed to the obvious, blatant, even silly defects of the version Hipocrite restored, by doing some work to fix the section, then voting for it under the "current or other". I picked that section to work on because it was awful.
V., I really do want to find and establish solid consensus at Cold fusion. Rather obviously, it's going to take work, but I believe it can be done and that I understand, roughly, how to do it. Thanks for your support. -- Abd ( talk) 20:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
I have been asked to mediate the content dispute regarding Cold fusion. I have set up a separate page for this mediation here. You have been identified as one of the involved parties. Please read through the material I have presented there. Thank you. -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 19:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, regarding Talk:Cold_fusion#New_article, I have seen your comment, and skimmed the article, but I can't really give it my attention now. When the case is finished, could you remind me of that article, so I can add to Martin Fleischmann and similar? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
[6] - If it was your intention to call others incompetent, then you need to remove or reword your statement so it does not. I issued a general warning concerning disruptive comments and behavior to all users involved in this case two days ago on the Workshop talk page. I seem to have missed giving you direct notification of that on this page, but it nonetheless applies. Hersfold non-admin( t/ a/ c) 18:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Long, and moves to different subjects related to CF, hope you don't mind.
If you figure density by the number of nuclei, the density of hydrogen in palladium hydride or deuteride can exceed 100%. Cold fusion researchers speak of the loading ratio, i.e., how many deuterons there are compared to palladium nuclei. CF phenomena seem to occur beginning around 90%, i.e., 9:10. Co-deposition is such a useful technique because it builds up palladium deuteride at 100% from the beginning. And higher packing than that is possible. The early replication failures were mostly a matter of failing to reach high loading ratios; the ability of palladium to hold hydrogen/deuterium is very sensitive to the microstructure, how the material was formed.
The behavior of palladium hydride/deuteride was an active field of research before the CF flap, because this remarkable material is similar in some ways to metallic hydrogen; if fully loaded, it's the closest thing to metallic hydrogen you could come to touching with a finger without the finger being immediately frozen.
By the way, the argument that Cold fusion requires special rules for sourcing is a losing one. All that is needed is to apply the existing guidelines evenly, without using (often unspoken) original research or SYNTH to reject otherwise fully acceptable sources. In fact, as will become plain when our process opens up, some level of synthesis is required to assert that cold fusion is fringe science or "rejected by the mainstream." My position is that consensus trumps any particular or wikilawyered interpretation of the guidelines, and that we ultimately make all decisions by consensus, that guidelines guide but do not control. What's been lost is that a majority of editors may be able to create an appearance of consensus by consistently rejecting minority positions, one by one, the minority editors leave or are banned. Rather, we need to unwarp the process by dealing with the issues of tendentious argument in more sophisticated ways than simple exclusion, and we need to understand that any change that increases consensus (percentage of involved, informed editors who approve of the text) is an improvement, and reverting back, even if accepted by a lesser majority of editors, is "contrary to consensus."
It's a subtle argument, lost on many at first. We should make decisions by majority rule, is the apparent paradox I'm asserting. The majority, in a functional deliberative environment, always has the right of decision. But if the majority rides roughshod over minorities, it increases their motivation to disrupt the process, hence we build a wiki that requires constant and tedious maintenance, with more "majority" editors burning out because of having to deal with the waves of "POV-pushers" and "trolls" and "vandals."
I encountered serious interest in the concepts at WikiConference New York. It will take time, but the long-term, serious, administrators and other participants do largely grasp the problem.
By arguing for making some exception for Cold fusion, you feed into the perception that opposition to the status quo there is from fringe fanatics who have ideas that can't get published in serious journals. But that's not the case, there is plenty of publication.
The argument that the mainstream ignores cold fusion because it's been proven to be bogus is simply a theory. The reality is that many of those who might be able to understand cold fusion did personally conclude it was bogus, though that conclusion, to my knowledge, is not found in the most reliable sources; it was a sociological phenomenon, not a true scientific consensus, based on conclusive refutations of the basis for the theory. Simon (Undead Science, 2002) is an extremely valuable source of the reality of what happened; Enric loves to cite Simon with cherry-picked confirmations of the rejected status of cold fusion, but Simon actually tells both sides, and when I've discussed material from Simon that told the other side, Simon was rejected by cabal editors on the basis that he was biased, perhaps because he actually did assist with some cold fusion experiments, and was a sociologist, not a physicist or chemist. (And the cabal wouldn't be content even if he were a physicist, and if he were nuclear physicist, they would then say that he was an isolated lunatic. He Jing-Tang may have written bad English in his brief review in Frontiers of Physics in China, 2007, but the paper is secondary source, was peer-reviewed, the journal has a prestigious and non-fringe publisher (Higher Education Press, one of the world's largest publishers, in cooperation with Springer-Verlag), and He Jing-Tang is a nuclear physicist working with hot fusion. You'd think....)
Naturwissenschaften is mentioned in the article. LeadSongDog, I think it was, tried to insert that Naturw. was a "life science journal." The implication was that they wouldn't have the expertise to review the paper properly. In fact, Naturw. is a multidisciplinary journal with access to the best possible review resources, and its impact factor is number 50, just below Scientific American at number 49, as I recall. In the mediation, this came up, as you might have noticed, and even though LSD had mentioned it as an example of how unreasonable I was, since it was obvious that Naturw. was a life sciences journal, since it is so classified by Springer, but that was actually synthesized from primary sources by misinterpreting them. Springer has only one multidisciplinary journal, and each journal needs a category, so that there is general managing staff for the journal, and they aren't going to set up a managing group for just one journal. Since most of the articles do have a biology aspect, it's rather obvious, they stuck it there. But the overall management has nothing to do with peer review, which is apparently the responsibility of the Max Planck Society. It's an example of how the cabal has attempted to maintain the appearance of the bogosity of cold fusion.
It's hard to point to a specific dividing line, but, very clearly, by 2004 and the DoE review, cold fusion could no longer be reasonably considered simple fringe science, much less pseudoscience, for one-third of the 18-member panel considered not only the heat to be real, but evidence at least "somewhat convincing" that the origin was nuclear. That would not happen with a "rejected field." It's emerging science, still very controversial. And when there is controversy, Wikipedia should not be promoting one side or the other, but should be presenting the evidence in the highest-quality sources neutrally and with balance.
And how do we determine balance? This is an old problem in democracy. For immediate decisions, it's been hammered out over centuries that the majority has the right of decision; but whenever majorities stick with that for the long term, and do not recognize the value of increased consensus, revolutions can be fomented, disruption can last for a very long time, with huge damage. What it takes to increase consensus over simple majority is typically discussion in depth, lots and lots of it. And the majority sometimes has no patience for that. So what works is that the minority discusses the matter with a few among the majority, those willing to discuss it. And if those can be convinced, there is then a larger group supporting change, and that can become a majority, and if the arguments are sound, the new majority, after a transition period, becomes a truly expanded consensus, much more difficult to disrupt.
I'd urge you to moderate your views, bring them closer to the mainstream of Wikipedia editors, and argue for better application of the guidelines, not invention of new ones, which we actually do not need. If we were following the guidelines, we'd have a much better article, and readers would be able to come to conclusions for themselves, and they would also have, through the article, access to much deeper sources. Including critical sources, by the way.
If you'd like something to do, I posted a list to Talk:Cold fusion, of lenr-canr.org pages that I'd gotten whitelisted for use as convenience links in the article, and I was about to start adding those when I was banned. There will be some opposition, but that's okay. Just put in the convenience links that were listed, they are to papers that were, at the time, already in the list of sources, so that people can easily find them. I will watch and help you with supporting arguments, or suggest abandoning one or another of them if there are reasonably cogent objections. Just getting a few in will help the project in the long run. It's almost time to go to meta and get the global blacklisting lifted, and the actual usage of a few more sources may help.
Enric, if you read this, you could help with this, too.
V, I also managed to get http://newenergytimes.com delisted, as you can see. But it turned out, I hadn't noticed, that NET relies on a fair use claim to host certain important works, such as the 2009 Naturw. paper by Mosier-Boss. They can get away with that, apparently, because they have author support, for sure, but that does mean that the specific link was properly disallowed by an editor here. There are other possible links to NET, though, whenever we want to cite opinion within the field. NET interviews or publishes correspondence with all the notable scientists working in the field. Those sources can sometimes be used with caution and attribution. Usage of NET is tricky, because there is a publisher bias that can be asserted. In fact, NET's goal is to be neutral, but obviously they have a specialized interest. We do have the article I created, New Energy Times. There is also an article on Infinite Energy, which actually does publish some very interesting articles, with authors notable in the field, and some pretty wigged-out ones. We had these as See-alsos for a while. They should be there for further reading or as a see-also. I put them in for the former, but it was changed to a see-also by an editor, which I accepted, six of one and a half dozen of the other. But then they were both taken out, tradeoff is that the Britz bibliography was inserted. They should all be there, in fact. Britz refers to lenr-canr.org, which helps. But it's crazy that there are two regular publications (print with IE, web with NET) which exist that extensively cover the topic of the article, and they aren't listed. It's a reflection of cabal bias. "Fringe" is not an argument for exclusion, but for balance and caution. -- Abd ( talk) 19:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
[7] I don't have a copy of the actual paper, but it doesn't matter at this point. You are correct. From the abstract alone, this paper is a confirmation of Arata, establishing notability. Kirk is COI and does not agree with RS and NPOV policy. He rejects the content of the paper, as he rejects all positive cold fusion results and review, he always finds a reason. But we depend on the peer-reviewers and what they pass and don't pass, Wikipedia is not concerned with Truth. More accurately, we leave that judgment to others: publishers and peer reviewers.
The argument he raises is a generic one: most cold fusion experiments are not exact replications. The application here is a bit poor; the Kitamura work is, in fact, a replication, though it reports on different aspects, it seems. The level of the effect is known to depend on the exact alloy and preparation, which affects surface area per weight, and so this would likely explain the quantitative differences. Kitamura used an independent fabrication (which makes it more of an independent replication).
Kirk's original research on the content is of low relevance to our inclusion standards. We can criticize, for example, very cogently, Albagli's work in 1989 from MIT, but we don't. The paper was accepted by peer review, however flawed it was. If we are going to criticize, it will be because the criticism is found in a review, under peer review, and we will present it neutrally, in apposition, probably with attribution.
Good luck. I will be paying less and less attention to Wikipedia, but if you have questions, you are welcome to email me. The kit project is finding some support from names in the field, which is probably crucial to its success. To work, the engineering must be a solid representation of the art, and the art is not fully published. That is, in fact, one aspect that we will be addressing, because the documentation necessary to manufacture the kits will be the missing publication. These kits will enable massive exact replication. Theoretically, they could also enable massive disconfirmation! If we are unable to develop engineering to make kits showing a consistent effect (at least, if the actual phenomena vary from cell to cell, statistically significant), given all the work that has been done and the reports of 100% success (secondary review, He Jing-Tang, Frontiers of Physics in China), I will insure that this fact is published. Further, should we show a consistent effect, there is then an experiment for skeptics to examine and debunk, if they can. It's quite possible that calorimetry won't be part of the first kits, it's too tricky, but kit design is still very, very open. -- Abd ( talk) 15:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I formally grant Abd permission to say anything he wants on this page. I won't guarantee to read all of it, :) --but he has no significant dispute here, and therefore no formal editing restriction applies here. V ( talk) 19:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Objectivist, I have noticed a downward trend in the civility of your comments. You have used the comment "chosen-to-be-ignorant" [8] and "heh" [9] in ways that I consider insulting. Please be more polite to other editors, and please refrain from posting so much text that does not discuss edits to the article. Olorinish ( talk) 22:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
V, I'll look for possible sources in the SPAWAR papers, as you requested in the cold fusion talk page. In the meantime, I would appreciate if you could comment on my proposal change for the lead (privately here, if you prefer).
I noticed that it's not possible to send you private e-mails. If you want to change this, you just need to enter your e-mail address in your preferences. Pcarbonn ( talk) 11:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Real heat, not to mention neutrons! Maybe [10] will help? 76.254.70.144 ( talk) 09:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Interesting. Not much experimental data presented, though. V ( talk) 14:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I find it amusing that the talk page for the cold fusion article asks for sources, but ordinary non-wikipedia people can't add any. Did you know about these two recent peer reviewed literature reviews?
Biberian, J.-P.; Armamet, N. (2008) "An update on condensed matter nuclear science (cold fusion)." Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie. Volume: 33, Issue: 1-2, Pages: 45-51. Abstract: The discovery of Cold Fusion was announced on March 23, 1989 at a press conference at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. The two discoverers: Stan Pons and Martin Fleischmann described their electrochemical device that produces more heat than the electric energy used to run it. Since then lot of progress has been made, and it is more and more obvious that this phenomenon now named Condensed Matter Nuclear Science is a genuine scientific research field with many important potential applications. It is the purpose of this paper to present an update of the worldwide research.
Sheldon, E. (2008) "An overview of almost 20 years' research on cold fusion. A review of 'The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction: A Comprehensive Compilation of Evidence and Explanations about Cold Fusion.'" Contemporary Physics. Volume: 49, Issue: 5, Pages: 375-378. Full text: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a906882120&fulltext=713240928
They say that Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the secondary sources. If you would, please bring those secondary sources to the attention of the other cold fusion article editors. I want to see what they have to say about them. Thank you.
128.32.83.52 ( talk) 00:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
OK. Thank you.
Archive after Reliable Sources Noticeboard discussion. 99.22.95.69 ( talk) 00:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
This NASA report from 1989 found excess heat. Will the cold fusion editors want to include it? 71.198.176.22 ( talk) 08:18, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of previously published material to our articles as you apparently did to Talk:Beginning of human personhood. Please cite a reliable source for all of your information. Thank you. -- Orange Mike | Talk 20:05, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Please stop. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by adding your personal analysis or synthesis into articles, as you did to Talk:Person, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. -- Orange Mike | Talk 20:05, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. As it happens, I think I was the one who originally found the document at the NCAS site (it was the only copy on the Web I could find outside lenr-canr.org). If there is a link to the original document in the copy at your site, then I'm going to get it (downloading as I write this). Finally, whatever you intended, when you added your introduction to it (and to other documents?), it was not spelled out clearly enough, which led the anti-CF crowd to misuse it against you. Perhaps you should re-edit all your introductions to indicate plainly that your added material "ends here", and after it follows the original unedited source-document. You might even add a link at the very start, just to allow someone to jump past your introduction and go straight to the original unedited source-document. Perhaps the blacklist can be lifted afterward... V ( talk) 17:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Someone deleted the whole discussion. Fortunately, I was able to recover my comments from the archive. I need to preserve that statement in case someone attacks me. - Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.41.126.65 ( talk) 13:57, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
[11] Thanks. FYI, http:/lenr-canr.org has been delisted, my request at meta was successful, and it may be freely used now for convenience links, and under some circumstances for original work hosted there by a recognized expert. See the prominent mention of lenr-canr.org at [12]. That is, a highly reliable source has referred readers to the web site so that they can readily read papers that may otherwise be quite difficult to find.
It was never true that I was the only person interested in using links to the site; when the site was blacklisted, links were removed, and this was before I ever edited in the topic; as well, the link at Martin Fleischmann was extensively debated, and efforts to remove the link, under the usual arguments, were roundly rejected. But the links will not be used unless an editor is bold enough to replace them, and follow dispute resolution process if that's resisted! -- Abd ( talk) 13:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
V, you have suggested that problems on theory at Cold fusion might be resolved with a link to v:Cold fusion. That's no solution. The Wikiversity page should be an interwiki link from the article, using a template in the External Links section, and not a reference for any subtopic. It is a place for students of the topic to explore it, to ask for expert opinion, share research, etc. Original research is indeed allowed there, and, for that reason, any specific Wikiversity page may not satisfy Wikipedia NPOV and sourcing standards. That is not an obstacle to an interwiki link, though, the position that a WV page is "self-published" isn't the case. It's a wiki, and it is a WMF wiki, which requires a neutrality policy, it merely deals with neutrality in a different way. As it happens, almost nobody other than me has edited those pages in a long time. But it's not for lack of invitations! It should be a general guideline that interwiki links, to other WMF wikis, are allowed and encouraged. That is the implication of the guideline already.
Wikiversity does not host encyclopedia articles, generally, though it's been used as an incubator on occasion. That is, a class there might work on pages intended for wikipedia, to be exported to Wikipedia, it's been done many times. And original research on Wikipedia can be moved to Wikiversity. And an interwiki link placed if the resource on Wikiversity is sufficiently relevant to the Wikipedia article. This, then, encourages more people to see and work on the learning resources on Wikiversity.
The problems on theory at the Wikipedia article should be resolved by covering in the article the notable theories that are discussed in secondary sources, for sure. There is plenty on this. I've started a Wikiversity page on Cold fusion/theory, but it isn't sourced yet. Care to help? -- Abd ( talk) 19:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cold_Fusion_Hypothesis --just so I don't have to hunt this link down in the future.
I noted that someone mentioned my name in the Cold Fusion talk section. I am permanently banned from there and the rest of Wikipedia too as far as I know. However, it seems I can write messages here. Anyway, you might want to inform Mr. Mouse that:
In the first report of heat after death, the energy release exceeded the amount of energy that could have been stored by hydrogen by a factor of 1,700 (650 J versus 1.1 MJ), and the event happened 116 times faster than a hydrogen release would allow (6 hours versus 696 hours). Some subsequent heat after death reports have exceeded the limits of chemical storage by even larger margins.
- Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.73.234 ( talk) 22:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Hmmmm . . . As a test, I added a comment. It is still there a half-hour later. Maybe whoever it was who banned me has been banned in turn. Or they have lifted the ban. Or it was a lie. Anyway, I have no desire to participate. I am sure Mr. Mouse will continue to insist that hydrogen storage can explain heat after death, even though that is like saying anyone can jump over Mt. Everest. Skeptics opposed to cold fusion never pay attention to quantitative proof that they are wrong. - Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.73.234 ( talk) 20:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Some nitwit will probably erase this. Let me copy it here in case you don't get a chance to read it --
The hypothesis that unboiled water left the cell was tested rigorously by several methods, in hundreds of experimental runs at Toyota, the French AEC and elsewhere. It was shown to be incorrect. Some of the methods were: 1. A careful inventory the salts left in the cell showed that only D2O left the cell. 2. Heat after death was confirmed with closed, boiling cells, using different calorimeter types. 3. Boil off events in null cells were induced with high powered electrolysis (instead of cold fusion heat), and the input power required to drive the water out agreed with textbook heat of vaporization. The cells are designed with buffers and small holes at the top to prevent unboiled water from leaving the cell. This is essential for various other reasons, such as keeping contamination out of the electrolyte.
It is amazing how these skeptics imagine they are the first people to come up with the idea that unboiled water might have left the cell. They imagine that hundreds of the world's top electrochemists never thought of that!
I must stop posting messages there. It is a bad habit. - Jed
Ah! MastCell banned me again. What an incorrigible scamp he is! Over at the Energy Catalyzer article one of the skeptics deleted the output power from the description, leaving a vague impression that the power was 400 W or 80 W (the input power). Anyway, if Rossi succeeds, eventually these skeptics will go away. If he fails, I fear there may not be many more chances for cold fusion. The $280 million investment is what matters now. I hope it is real, and the deal does not fall through, and Rossi is able to make a 1 MW prototype unit. I cannot understand why he is making a 1 MW machine when Defkalion plans to sell much smaller ones. I suppose there is a reason, but I have no clue what it could be. Unless Levi is in cahoots with Rossi, I think that fraud is ruled out, for the technical reasons given here: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3214604&posted=1#post3214604 And here: http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v310.php - Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.7.250 ( talk) 14:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Arggg! It turns out Rossi is not shipping systems to Sweden anytime soon. He just told me he will not. He did say there will be another test soon with improved calorimetry. I think he said it will be in Bologna. He is in Florida, and he is stuck here for while, so they will do the next tests without him. That's good news!
He says all kinds of stuff in his blog. It is hard to follow, and sometimes contradictory. I compiled a list of his statements, which someone else converted to Wiki format here:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator:Rossi%27s_Hints
- Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.88.147.207 ( talk) 22:18, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
There's some recent stuff at the bottom of the CF Talk page concerning the LENR-CANR web site. Looks to me like some of it is more of the same nonsense you have defended against before. Jed, if you reply here about it, I can try to keep your remarks "alive" longer than they tend to survive on other WP pages (heh, one more reason to delay archiving stuff). V ( talk) 16:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I saw your comment on MFD, about someone referring to "soap box". I took a quick look at your edit count, and it looks like all you've done on Wikipedia is talk. [13] Wikipedia isn't a debating club. Just a suggestion. I have only read a small part of your output, so I won't comment on the quality or content. But I'd suggest that if you're offended at the term then you might think of spending more time improving articles and less time sharing your views, no matter how correct or insightful they may be. Will Beback talk 07:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Your request for arbitration has been declined. The voting arbitrators felt that this was not as it stood a matter for the committee, noting the MfD that has been initiated. For the Arbitration Committee Alexandr Dmitri ( talk) 11:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I was going to try to ignore your soapboxing but it doesn't appear that you're going to stop anytime soon. These remarks at WikiProject Conservatism [14] [15] and this long thread [16] at MfD are disruptive. Please read WP:SOAP for more info. – Lionel ( talk) 07:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello, Objectivist. Please be aware that a user conduct request for comment has been filed concerning your conduct on Wikipedia. The RFC entry is located at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Objectivist, where you may want to participate. NYyankees51 ( talk) 22:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC) Thanks, NYyankees51 ( talk) 22:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious to know how conservatives address issues in which they exhibit hypocrisy (besides deleting posts that point it out). For example, many conservatives claim that human life is valuable (a reason to oppose abortion), while simultaneously opposing any Minimum Wage Law that is designed to help keep alive humans that are already born. Also, conservatives generally oppose the idea that if somebody wants something, then someone else should pay for it --prime example: women on Welfare having more babies at public expense. Logically, however, it follows that if conservatives are against abortions, then that means that conservatives should pay for the births they want to happen, and for the costs of raising those children.... Well, that's just a couple of the obvious hypocrisies of conservatives. There are others. But these are enough to get started, in seeking answers to such issues. Thanks in advance! V ( talk) 10:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
This statement is not about the content of any conservatism articles, but a general statement about your understanding and opinion of one aspect of it. It would be helpful to everyone involved if you would acknowledge that you understand why posting such a statement is inappropriate. If you're not sure why it's inappropriate, please review WP:NOTAFORUM, which states:
Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing. This applies to articles, categories, templates, talk page discussions, and user pages. Therefore, content hosted in Wikipedia is not for:
...
2. Opinion pieces. Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics [like abortion, perhaps? -B2C], may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (for example, passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this.
Second source [18] page 8 and 9 report about Arata replication by McKubre. Maybe that will do ? -- POVbrigand ( talk) 16:41, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. causa sui ( talk) 20:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
{{
unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
, but you should read the
guide to appealing blocks first.
causa sui (
talk)
17:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. ASCIIn2Bme ( talk) 16:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Objectivist ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
Actually, this is not an unblock request yet; this is mostly just a test. Because I don't know enough yet about how this is supposed to work. The "appeal guide" indicates that this should be added to the bottom of my user page (check). In theory this new text should have been located just below the block notification, but before I got around to it, something else got added first. So now, if some sort of overall unblock discussion is supposed to happen, it already has been interrupted. So, should this text really have been added to the previous section, to keep it together/consistent? Next, when I get around to actually requesting an unblock, I will have to gather a lot of data showing the difference between my actions and how those actions were described/distorted by those who favored the block. Simple immediate proof of such distortions can be found on two discussion pages mentioned above, which I now can't edit due to the block. In the discussion page linked just above, User:NYyankees51 claims that a certain other page has "zero chance of ever potentially being useful", implying that events in the far far future are predictable. Obviously a false statement has been made, therefore, even if it looks to be reasonably true with respect to the short-term future (if the page wasn't deleted). There were a lot of equivalent distortions of reality made; I specified a few others on the Noticeboard/Incident page that is mentioned a few sections above this one. Also, please note on that page how a completely new reason for a block entered the discussion, shifting it abruptly from the reasons that were originally offered, even though only those original reasons were specified when the block was done, and not the new one! Is that not another distortion of reality? Thank you! V ( talk) 06:15, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Decline reason:
Procedural decline, since this isn't actually an unblock request. To answer your question, the formatting/placement is fine. However, please note that when you do make an unblock request, it will be far, far more beneficial to your chances if you describe how you will act differently going forward than to argue the merits of the block itself. 28bytes ( talk) 06:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
To improve the article:
1) Wiki needs to view it as science.
2) Wiki needs to recognize which scientific journals are utilized and sourced by scientists in this field of physics.
I predict a tremendous increase in the readability of the article.
Query to the Scientific Community: To the Directors of Physics Departments,
LENR - Low Energy Nuclear Reaction and Widom Larson Theory, aka Condensed Matter Nuclear or Lattice Enabled Nuclear; historically misnamed "Cold Fusion"
1) Is this science or pathological science?
2) Do you offer a class in this discipline? If so, please provide information.
3) Are you developing a curriculum of this science? If so, when will you offer it?
4) What peer review journals do you source in this field?
Diza, P>S> 1) Any suggestions or criticisms before I move forward with this? 2) Is this direction of query able to yield opinions the Wikipedia forum on Cold Fusion may value? Thank you for your time, Gregory Goble gbgoble@gmail.com (415) 724-6702-- Gregory Goble ( talk) 00:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
To the extent that researchers in any field follow the Scientific Method, that field can be properly called a "science". To the extent that researchers ignore criticisms of experimental procedure, or don't take all the relevant data into account, or even unconsciously bias their experiments toward desired results, then those researchers could be committing "pathological science". There is nothing wrong with the label "cold fusion" if it is an accurate label (about nuclear fusion happening at relatively low temperatures) --and, personally, I tend to think that to try to change that label to something else is to admit there is something wrong with it (in other words, a bad idea, if the CF researchers are actually correct!).
I'm not a formal teacher; I haven't studied the Widom-Larson theory enough to comment on it, and I can't afford to access ordinary peer-reviewed journals. V ( talk) 05:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I have made a request to the Arbitration Committee to amend the Abortion case, in relation to the structured discussion that was to take place. The request can be found here. Regards, Steven Zhang Join the DR army! 04:09, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Hey Objectivist. This is just a notification that a binding, structured community discussion has been opened by myself and Steven Zhang on behalf of the Arbitration Committee. As you were named as a involved party in the Abortion case, you may already know that remedy 5.1 called for a "systematic discussion and voting on article names". This remedy is now being fulfilled with this discussion. If you would like to participate, the discussion is taking place at WP:RFC/AAT. All the best, Whenaxis talk · contribs | DR goes to Wikimania! 22:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Welcome!
Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
Attention, ALL: Please place abortion-article/discussion metadata in this section. Examples follow (create subsections as needed). See my special page User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate for arguments about the topic. Thank you! V ( talk) 08:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
You were former involved in a discussion in
Talk:Abortion#More reliable references so, if you're still interested about the outcome of that discussion, I ask you to express your opinion in
Talk:Abortion#Assessing the current agreement status--
Nutriveg (
talk)
04:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
In light of the seemingly endless disputes over their respective titles, a neutral mediator has crafted a proposal to rename the two major abortion articles ( pro-life/anti-abortion movement, and pro-choice/abortion rights movement) to completely new names. The idea, which is located here, is currently open for opinions. As you have been a contributor in the past to at least one of the articles, your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.
The hope is that, if a consensus can be reached on the article titles, the energy that has been spent debating the titles of the articles here and here can be better spent giving both articles some much needed improvement to their content. Please take some time to read the proposal and weigh in on the matter. Even if your opinion is simple indifference, that opinion would be valuable to have posted.
To avoid concerns that this notice might violate WP:CANVASS, this posting is being made to every non-anon editor who has edited either page (or either page's respective talk page) since 1 July 2010, irrespective of possible previous participation at the mediation page. HuskyHuskie ( talk) 22:15, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Don't let the heat get under your collar at the mediation page. He who keeps calm gets a more sympathetic reading. Binksternet ( talk) 22:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Your comments at the pro-life/pro-choice mediation were highly uncivil and I have reverted them. NYyankees51 ( talk) 19:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
18:55, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
20:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC) 14:30, 25 July 2011 (UTC) 16:59, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
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Talk:Cold fusion is a useful link. And any other interesting links that I want to keep handy will be inserted here.
Original text of this Section now begins:
Its true that physicist take issue with cold fusion over a lack of theory or first principles. As a chemist I have no issue with a lack of theory. Chemists work almost exclusively with empirically derived "trends". From my perspective physicists first principles don't hold much promise for advancing chemistry. This is exemplified by the utter lack of progressed derived from computational chemistry, something that was expected to hold great promise 10-15 years ago. That neither here nor there. Since chemist work empirically sorting through others results is an important part of our game. We consider researchers reputation, institution, and journal when present with extraordinary claims. In early CF research many of the advocates were of questionable repute, like John Bockris who was a frauds not only in CF but other aspects of his research. Then reputable individuals published "negative" results in reputable journals. This is publishing of "negative" results is extremely rarer for chemistry. Generally we only report positive results, neglecting to spend time on our failed ideas and attempts. The criticism direct at CF ended its relationship with main stream science. Now CF mostly exists in places like "infinite energy" which no serious scientist would take seriously, from their perspective its a glorified blog or zine. I'm not saying that CF will never see be brought to fruition but WP has a responsibility to present the mainstream as mainstream and fringe as fringe.-- OMCV ( talk) 00:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to express the opinion that transmutation does not necessarily involve fusion, and therefore any discussion of it in the Cold Fusion article should be kept to a bare minimum. Certain transmutations are widely known and accepted (e.g. carbon-14 becomes nitrogen-14, potassium-40 becomes either argon-40 or calcium-40, uranium-238 spits out an alpha particle and becomes thorium-234). Other transmutations of a huge variety are acceptable but rare (and are caused by interactions with cosmic rays or ray-showers that happen to penetrate to the bottom of the atmosphere, or caused by an occasional naturally occurring loose neutron, or caused by an occasionally absorbed solar neutrino). I've read that today's instruments are so sensitive that in various top-of-the-line laboratories, the researchers have to obtain steel from ships that were sunk before the end of World War2, because all the steel made since is too radioactive and would interfere with the measurements they want to make. So how many of those claims of transmutation-detection are simply the result of modern instruments discovering a cosmic ray or equivalent event has messed with some of the experimental hardware? One final point is that in MOST atoms, the nucleus is buried under layers of electron shells, that keep nuclei from getting anywhere near each other at ordinary temperatures, and makes classical transmutations like turning base metal into gold practically impossible by any ordinary means short of a particle accelerator. The biggest exception is hydrogen, which only has one electron. That's why transmutation of hydrogen to helium (otherwise called "fusion") is a much more likely thing; under any ordinary conditions you might care to specify, it is far more possible for a hydrogen to lose its lone electron, and have its nucleus exposed for interactions, than it is for any other element to lose its multiplicity of electrons, and have its nucleus exposed for interactions. V ( talk) 05:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Apparently for nearly 20 years the theorists have been trying to explain how two nuclei can fuse when still inside their electron shells. They've been failing for nearly 20 years, too. That's plenty reason for me to insist that "It makes no sense to assume fusion is the source of the claimed/observed excess heat, if that very first question cannot be answered." (The "first question" was about how to get those nuclei outside their electron shells.) I got the impression from what you wrote that for some unknown-to-me reason the theorists were SUPPOSED to keep butting their heads against the problem of finding a way for the Strong Force to work across atom-width dimensions, more than 10,000 times its normal effective range. I'm quite aware that if the nuclei DO escape their shells, then the "typical" fusion mechanism (involving very high speed) has to contend with electrostatic repulsions that can be millions or billions of times the strength of electron-shell repulsion. But your pointing-out of that makes no sense if the nuclei never approach each other closely enough (for such repulsion to exist), because they start out stuck inside their electron shells!!! SO, (A) if "Something" enhances the Strong Force's range enough, then, sure, it won't matter if the nuclei are inside atoms; they are going to fuse regardless of however-much electric repulsion is going to happen while pulled together, yanked out of their atoms. OR (B) the repulsion you talked about is nonsense, because it doesn't exist and cannot exist until AFTER the nuclei escape their electron shells. So, why put the cart before the horse, and insist that nucleus-repulsion/fusing problem has to be solved before the nucleus-escape problem? The way that Hypothesis did it, the proposed solution to the "easier" problem led straight to a possible solution to the difficult problem. Do you have an objection to that? V ( talk) 07:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
{this section cloned from the history of another talk page} V ( talk) 14:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I can't remember what the 1989 DOE panel split was, sorry. In 2004 it was one member convinced, about a third somewhat convinced, and the rest unconvinced. 69.228.220.30 ( talk) 21:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
The CCS is simple to understand. It simply says that between the time the experiment is calibrated, and the time that experimental data is collected, an instability in the experiment has occurred and thus the prior calibration is no longer valid. In other words expressed mathematically, at time t0, the experimenter determines the calibration equation is Pout = 5 * X + 3. Then at time t1 a change occurs, such that at time t2, when the experimenter measures the unknown conditions, the true calibration equation (unknown to the researcher) is Pout = 4 * X + 3. Clearly, if you multiply x by 5 when the correct (at that time) value is 4, you will get the wrong Pout. This is why measuring the calibration equation at several times to statistically assess the stability of those constants is a necessity. --Kirk Shanahan
Man, I'm afraid that the discussion is over :( If you can't find some better source, then there is no chance at all that the addition is ever made to the article. There is a time at wikipedia when you have to step back from the discussion or start facing accusations of beating dead horses, etc., I think that you have reached that point with the electron shell thing. I wouldn't bother to restore that section, just make a new one when/if you find a source explicetaly making the link between electron shells and cold fusion (and make sure it's a good source making a clear direct link before re-opening the theme).
Here you have a permanent link to the discussion right before it was removed, so you can reference it [3] -- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
P.D.:And... hum.... about this "(...)IS there a conspiracy by CF-detractors, to keep any data out of the article that might someday become related to the solutions to the main problems? Why else would Art do his latest lie-of-omission(...)" [4], the answer is no, there is not such conspiracy.... Please, you are getting very involved, and you are starting to skip the assuming good faith thing. That's not a good thing at all, at this pace you'll finally insult someone and get yourself blocked for incivility. The others are right on the consensus thing: you have given your reasons and your sources, and you have failed to convince the other editors, so you don't have consensus for your change.... Please take this as good intentioned advice. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 21:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Enric was right, Objectivist, you are treading on thin ice. You might get away with it time after time until the "wrong" admin notices it, and you are then blocked. There are some block-happy admins who watch the CF article. Look, I want your participation. If I wanted to see you blocked, I'd not bother to warn you, I'd sit back and watch it happen. So, please, be careful. "lie of omission" is uncivil, you could be blocked for that alone. Naval is right. There is no conspiracy, though there are cooperating editors to some degree, an anti-pseudoscience virtual cabal. ArbComm is aware of it, but it's tricky to address because some very popular editors are involved. So, patience, one careful, baby step at a time. Or else, watch out! That stove is hot.
It's possible to get blocked in this field even if you walk the policy line very carefully. Don't make it easy for them. If you are blocked for *following* policy, such as NPOV, and not for *violating* it, such as WP:CIVIL, it can be appealed, probably successfully. But with clear offenses, there is little hope, the community will take one look at those edits and say, "Nothing to do here, next case!" -- Abd ( talk) 16:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
About the "where to complain about this" question you made at Talk:Cold fusion, try WP:RS/N for establishing the reliability of the source, Wikipedia:Village pump for discussing with a wider community, or WP:AN to ask that an admin does something. However, honestly, I don't think that any of these avenues works unless you can get clearly better sources first, and I can't really recommend you that you even attempt them. You are bound to get only a lot of stress from this.... -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:11, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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You wrote, Look, there is a difference between denouncing an action and denouncing a person. I'm responding to you here, because I don't want to clutter Enric's Talk page with what might be considered useless and tendentious debate.
You are absolutely right that there is a difference, but you crossed the line from one to the other. If you won't hear this from me, what will it take? Because you responded with that comment, and what followed, I'm placing this here. I'm not posting a formal warning here, because the last thing I want to see is that you are blocked, unless the behavior continued after ample opportunity to reform it. However, all this history is visible to anyone who looks, and, let me put it this way: someone may indeed look and if you are right, that you didn't cross that line, you could still be blocked, if it merely looks that way. Wikipedia is a community of human beings, and it respects human process, not necessarily "correct argumentation." Yes, in theory, cogent arguments should prevail, but, in reality, as with nearly all organized human activity, politics matters. Wikipedia operates on "rough consensus," and the body of editors who participate in the consensus is variable. If it happens that a dispute escalates, increasing numbers of editors and administrators will review it, but many of these won't spend the time to carefully investigate and weigh evidence, purely. Rather, many or most -- sometimes even all! -- will make a snap judgment. So if it looks like a personal attack, it is quite likely to be treated that way, even if, for some technical reason, or even if in reality there is no attack involved. You continued:
I know what I was denouncing, and I truly think it was the correct conclusion, because if Art had a valid argument that could "put me in my place", proving that I am dead wrong about [topic elided, it doesn't matter], then I fully expect he would have posted such an argument. Since he didn't, I get to assume he didn't have one, and thereby lost the debate, except he didn't want to admit it.
Your concept of Wikipedia editorial process is radically misguided. We discuss possible edits and article considerations. This isn't a debate contest, with winners and losers. The editor gave his opinion, with what I called a "marginally uncivil" edge to it. He didn't impugn your integrity, he merely wrote that you were "dead wrong." People, including myself, and, I'm sure, you, can be very, very wrong about a thing. The editor didn't respond further, and he had utterly no responsibility to do so. He's not on trial, he's not in a contest, and I don't see that his goal was to "put you in your place." He saw your argument as seriously misguided, he told you so, and then moved on to whatever else interests or occupies him. You can assume anything you want, but if you fail to assume good faith, and show it in your edits, you can be blocked. AGF used to be considered a policy; it was demoted, not because it wasn't important, but because it can be hard to judge.
Above, I suggested a course of action for you if you wish to do more than debate in a contest with, in your own mind, "winners" and "losers." I also suggested that you redact statements that could be seen as personal attacks, with strike-out. You are free to take my advice or not, but wikipedia is also free to, as I wrote before, "spit you out like a bad grape." There is no debate between the grape and other grapes. Each grape is judged on its own merits. If an admin looks at your actions, and they "taste bad," the admin may block you, probably starting with short blocks. If you continue, those will eventually become indefinite, and can turn into a ban. From experience, I can assure you that claims you were right will be of practically no effect at all, unless you are supported by many editors. And you won't get there the way you have been proceeding.
Actions speak louder than words, remember? If he and like-minded editors had simply stopped posting to that section, that would have been more intellectually honest, and it would have eventually been archived of old age. Instead, to enforce his mere opinion regarding the proposed improvement, he chose the course (the History clearly shows it was he who deleted it) that makes it much more difficult for any new editors to see that debate, and his losing of that debate; the accumulation of new editors well-informed on the topic eventually should lead to the proposed improvement getting implemented, due to there being no valid reason not to do it.
Fast archiving of Talk is common. Deletion is less common and less accepted. Sure, the discussion was deleted. You then reverted. Not great, but acceptable. Then [ [5] you were reverted], not by the first editor. You responded with a brief but contentious edit. You are dealing with several highly experienced editors. You want to know where to complain? Well, read the dispute resolution guideline. For something considered an emergency, you could go to WP:AN/I. I wouldn't recommend it, you'd get slaughtered, so to speak. You want to do something without risk of being considered disruptive? Read that WP:DR. Follow it. Start with rigorously civil Talk page discussion, attempting to find agreement with an editor you disagree with. Don't take this beyond a point of decision, and don't insist. Then, if you aren't satisfied, get help. Ask an experienced editor to look at the situation and advise you. Without being asked, several editors tried to help you. You haven't shown much sign of listening. You could change that. Nobody is going to force you to change, it's up to you. If you want to be effective, though, I'd suggest you start listening, carefully.
Now, what would I do if my Talk content were deleted? Please realize I've been here and have dealt with it. What I'd do depends on the specific details, and how important it is to me. There are good grounds for reversing that deletion; for starters, it wasn't just one editor whose commments were deleted. In addition, fast archiving may have been more appropriate. But, remember, this is a community where we seek consensus. There are plenty of editors who don't do that, but, if we want to improve the project, we can't -- we mustn't -- imitate them. So, first of all, we need to understand what was right about the deletion. Is there some way of dealing with this without losing what was right about it? In some cases, I've simply written the discussion to the archive. Someone wants to edit war over that, well, they will probably lose. But it could be disruptive. Anything better?
Sure, I think so, but it isn't commonly done. Let me suggest how you might do it. Go to history, find the deleted material, and copy it to a file in your user space, you could create or use User:Objectivist/Sandbox. Edit it to boil it down, to create a concise summary of what you think is important about it. When you have that, put it on the Talk page with an appropriate section title (the original one?) and an introduction that says that this is your summary of what had been deleted. There should be a permanent link to the full discussion that was deleted. And state explicitly that you will accept fast archiving of this copy. And I highly recommend avoiding any further debate on the subject at this point. I've elsewhere suggested how to approach editing the article. Be ready and prepared to accept consensus even if you think it to be "dead wrong."
As to the link to a permanent copy of the full discussion, here is the wikitext you would use: [http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Cold_fusion&oldid=270296063#Incompatibilities_with_established_physics permanent link].
Thus would the existence of the discussion have a use; it would be a lie to say it was useless (well, it would not be a lie for a detractor to say, "It is useless to my vested interests...").
Dead wrong, and the kind of assumption of bad faith that could get you blocked. It would not be a lie. It might be wrong, or it might be right. In the short term, it is clearly correct. No edit to the article resulted, if I've got it right. However, you are also correct that there may be a benefit in the long run, but the benefit will be more if the points made there are made much more concisely, otherwise they may never be read again by anyone. If you want to be successful here, pursue your goal while at the same time considering and addressing objections. Insisting on being correct is highly counterproductive. It isn't the correctness that is the problem, it's how it is asserted.
The deletion diminishes the possibility of Art's opinion getting overruled by people possessing valid data, and is exactly the type of action that can be expected of the board-bashing losing chess-player, or of Religious Authority (how many WARS did they start, preceding even the Hebrew invasion of the Promised Land, to shut up their competition?). Enric, I repeat, "what [they] believe is irrelevant here; what [they] can prove is relevant." --paraphrased from the deleted debate.
V, you have no idea how this place works, in contentious areas. You have a vision, expressed above, of a kind of war between truth and "authority," and it contaminates your understanding of what is going on. There are administrators here, with some apparent "authority," but, in fact, they have little control, individually. There is legal authority with the WikiMedia Foundation, but they are almost entirely hands-off. The real power is in the community, which is largely asleep, from my point of view, but it wakes up enough, sometimes, to do some good, or sometimes only enough to do some damage. It's like the rest of the world, V. You've focused on one editor, who is not an administrator and who has no inherent power over you. He did nothing that you could not do yourself. He deleted some Talk that he thought pointless. You restored it. Somebody else, not an administrator also, undid your restoral. Now, that deletion stood. Why? Basically, it was two to one. You failed to convince anyone else that the text should remain. If you had continued to insist, all by yourself, you'd have been blocked. Not because you were "wrong," and certainly not because you were "right." Because you'd have been edit warring, which, beyond a certain point, is almost automatically blockworthy. I've seen many editors blocked because they were insisting on something that they thought was policy. And they were right. It was policy, except that they forgot something. They were violating policy by edit warring, and the policy they were "enforcing" was a content policy, not a behavioral policy.
Wikipedia content is not ruled by "truth." It's partly ruled by verifiability in reliable sources, but the real authority is editorial consensus. If you can find consensus, you can do almost anything here. But if you can't find even one person to agree with you, how likely are you to find consensus? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which can be a rather dull class of publication. I've come across many examples where I know something, with certainty, that is known by everyone with reasonable knowledge of a field. And I can't insist on it being in articles because there isn't publication in reliable source, there are only, for example, posts to mailing lists and a known consensus in the involved community. Now, a lot of this kind of knowledge does end up in Wikipedia, simply because nobody contests it. In a controversial article, however, being watched by many editors with opposing points of view, text based on synthesis or personal knowledge has a very short half-life.
I'm not sure why I've bothered to write this. Luck of the draw, I guess. Take what you like and leave the rest, I've only done my best to explain to you the situation you face, and the likely consequences of continuing on the path you've traced. As my late uncle used to say, "Don't take yourself so seriously." And you might read WP:DGAF. It's one of the best essays about how to survive here. -- Abd ( talk) 01:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Pardon me for butting in here; what is your "different objective"? Olorinish ( talk) 17:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Olorinish ( talk) 13:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
What is the obsession with lenr-canr.org it is a combination of reprinted articles and blog. The self-published blog doesn't meet WP:V for anything but Jed's opinion. Jed's opinion or anyone else operating out of a garage by an airport doesn't warrant inclusion in an encyclopedia. Any editors can still add the articles which lenr-canr.org keeps as reprints. I imagine Jed has paper copies of most, if not all, the citations included in the the CF article. Abd and V it would be best if you took you effort where OR was welcomed. By the way I'm glad you have spent your life thinking/combining ideas V. The idea that if we all think its true will make it true just doesn't fly on Wikipedia and combining ideas is the definition of OR. If you pushed that before on other pages than the citation will eventually be found or your material reverted.
So I see I missed the point in a way. You think we should have external links to these places but that would be legitimizing them. Any honest scientist will quickly identify these websites as fringe efforts to misrepresenting themselves as mainstream science. We should no sooner link to newenergytimes.com and lenr-canr.org then link to theresonanceproject.org on a page dealing with quantum mechanics, or go-here.nl and waterfuelconverters.com on page dealing with energy/electrolysis. Have a good one.-- OMCV ( talk) 01:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion#Other_comments
I hope you don't mind. Perhaps you'd like to indicate a choice among the versions. I'm trying to reduce complex questions to simple ones: of two known versions (where some edit warring started), which is better. It's always possible to find some fault, real or otherwise, with a piece of text, but the real question is always whether one version is better than another. And then, to avoid restricting the matter to two versions, I created a subsection for the "current version" if it's different, or to show support for any other version.
And I suggested Approval voting for this process, especially because Version 1 (my version) definitely can be improved, even improved greatly, both to solidify sourcing and to balance it better. Storms himself, however, did attempt to present this information in quite a balanced way, even conceding points that skeptics, were they not so busy denying Storms himself, might think, "Wow! He said that?" Instead, biological transformation just sends them off the charts. But Storms is right. There is experimental work that seems to show biological transformation so, while it's not very much confirmed, it could be, and it would be useful if theory could account for the possibility. If I were him, I'd have left it out, but Storms mentioning it is also reasonable.
The option of "voting" for more than one would allow a skeptic, for example, to vote for Hipocrite's reversion, effectively, as an improvement over mine, without getting nailed to the obvious, blatant, even silly defects of the version Hipocrite restored, by doing some work to fix the section, then voting for it under the "current or other". I picked that section to work on because it was awful.
V., I really do want to find and establish solid consensus at Cold fusion. Rather obviously, it's going to take work, but I believe it can be done and that I understand, roughly, how to do it. Thanks for your support. -- Abd ( talk) 20:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
I have been asked to mediate the content dispute regarding Cold fusion. I have set up a separate page for this mediation here. You have been identified as one of the involved parties. Please read through the material I have presented there. Thank you. -- Cryptic C62 · Talk 19:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, regarding Talk:Cold_fusion#New_article, I have seen your comment, and skimmed the article, but I can't really give it my attention now. When the case is finished, could you remind me of that article, so I can add to Martin Fleischmann and similar? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 17:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
[6] - If it was your intention to call others incompetent, then you need to remove or reword your statement so it does not. I issued a general warning concerning disruptive comments and behavior to all users involved in this case two days ago on the Workshop talk page. I seem to have missed giving you direct notification of that on this page, but it nonetheless applies. Hersfold non-admin( t/ a/ c) 18:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Long, and moves to different subjects related to CF, hope you don't mind.
If you figure density by the number of nuclei, the density of hydrogen in palladium hydride or deuteride can exceed 100%. Cold fusion researchers speak of the loading ratio, i.e., how many deuterons there are compared to palladium nuclei. CF phenomena seem to occur beginning around 90%, i.e., 9:10. Co-deposition is such a useful technique because it builds up palladium deuteride at 100% from the beginning. And higher packing than that is possible. The early replication failures were mostly a matter of failing to reach high loading ratios; the ability of palladium to hold hydrogen/deuterium is very sensitive to the microstructure, how the material was formed.
The behavior of palladium hydride/deuteride was an active field of research before the CF flap, because this remarkable material is similar in some ways to metallic hydrogen; if fully loaded, it's the closest thing to metallic hydrogen you could come to touching with a finger without the finger being immediately frozen.
By the way, the argument that Cold fusion requires special rules for sourcing is a losing one. All that is needed is to apply the existing guidelines evenly, without using (often unspoken) original research or SYNTH to reject otherwise fully acceptable sources. In fact, as will become plain when our process opens up, some level of synthesis is required to assert that cold fusion is fringe science or "rejected by the mainstream." My position is that consensus trumps any particular or wikilawyered interpretation of the guidelines, and that we ultimately make all decisions by consensus, that guidelines guide but do not control. What's been lost is that a majority of editors may be able to create an appearance of consensus by consistently rejecting minority positions, one by one, the minority editors leave or are banned. Rather, we need to unwarp the process by dealing with the issues of tendentious argument in more sophisticated ways than simple exclusion, and we need to understand that any change that increases consensus (percentage of involved, informed editors who approve of the text) is an improvement, and reverting back, even if accepted by a lesser majority of editors, is "contrary to consensus."
It's a subtle argument, lost on many at first. We should make decisions by majority rule, is the apparent paradox I'm asserting. The majority, in a functional deliberative environment, always has the right of decision. But if the majority rides roughshod over minorities, it increases their motivation to disrupt the process, hence we build a wiki that requires constant and tedious maintenance, with more "majority" editors burning out because of having to deal with the waves of "POV-pushers" and "trolls" and "vandals."
I encountered serious interest in the concepts at WikiConference New York. It will take time, but the long-term, serious, administrators and other participants do largely grasp the problem.
By arguing for making some exception for Cold fusion, you feed into the perception that opposition to the status quo there is from fringe fanatics who have ideas that can't get published in serious journals. But that's not the case, there is plenty of publication.
The argument that the mainstream ignores cold fusion because it's been proven to be bogus is simply a theory. The reality is that many of those who might be able to understand cold fusion did personally conclude it was bogus, though that conclusion, to my knowledge, is not found in the most reliable sources; it was a sociological phenomenon, not a true scientific consensus, based on conclusive refutations of the basis for the theory. Simon (Undead Science, 2002) is an extremely valuable source of the reality of what happened; Enric loves to cite Simon with cherry-picked confirmations of the rejected status of cold fusion, but Simon actually tells both sides, and when I've discussed material from Simon that told the other side, Simon was rejected by cabal editors on the basis that he was biased, perhaps because he actually did assist with some cold fusion experiments, and was a sociologist, not a physicist or chemist. (And the cabal wouldn't be content even if he were a physicist, and if he were nuclear physicist, they would then say that he was an isolated lunatic. He Jing-Tang may have written bad English in his brief review in Frontiers of Physics in China, 2007, but the paper is secondary source, was peer-reviewed, the journal has a prestigious and non-fringe publisher (Higher Education Press, one of the world's largest publishers, in cooperation with Springer-Verlag), and He Jing-Tang is a nuclear physicist working with hot fusion. You'd think....)
Naturwissenschaften is mentioned in the article. LeadSongDog, I think it was, tried to insert that Naturw. was a "life science journal." The implication was that they wouldn't have the expertise to review the paper properly. In fact, Naturw. is a multidisciplinary journal with access to the best possible review resources, and its impact factor is number 50, just below Scientific American at number 49, as I recall. In the mediation, this came up, as you might have noticed, and even though LSD had mentioned it as an example of how unreasonable I was, since it was obvious that Naturw. was a life sciences journal, since it is so classified by Springer, but that was actually synthesized from primary sources by misinterpreting them. Springer has only one multidisciplinary journal, and each journal needs a category, so that there is general managing staff for the journal, and they aren't going to set up a managing group for just one journal. Since most of the articles do have a biology aspect, it's rather obvious, they stuck it there. But the overall management has nothing to do with peer review, which is apparently the responsibility of the Max Planck Society. It's an example of how the cabal has attempted to maintain the appearance of the bogosity of cold fusion.
It's hard to point to a specific dividing line, but, very clearly, by 2004 and the DoE review, cold fusion could no longer be reasonably considered simple fringe science, much less pseudoscience, for one-third of the 18-member panel considered not only the heat to be real, but evidence at least "somewhat convincing" that the origin was nuclear. That would not happen with a "rejected field." It's emerging science, still very controversial. And when there is controversy, Wikipedia should not be promoting one side or the other, but should be presenting the evidence in the highest-quality sources neutrally and with balance.
And how do we determine balance? This is an old problem in democracy. For immediate decisions, it's been hammered out over centuries that the majority has the right of decision; but whenever majorities stick with that for the long term, and do not recognize the value of increased consensus, revolutions can be fomented, disruption can last for a very long time, with huge damage. What it takes to increase consensus over simple majority is typically discussion in depth, lots and lots of it. And the majority sometimes has no patience for that. So what works is that the minority discusses the matter with a few among the majority, those willing to discuss it. And if those can be convinced, there is then a larger group supporting change, and that can become a majority, and if the arguments are sound, the new majority, after a transition period, becomes a truly expanded consensus, much more difficult to disrupt.
I'd urge you to moderate your views, bring them closer to the mainstream of Wikipedia editors, and argue for better application of the guidelines, not invention of new ones, which we actually do not need. If we were following the guidelines, we'd have a much better article, and readers would be able to come to conclusions for themselves, and they would also have, through the article, access to much deeper sources. Including critical sources, by the way.
If you'd like something to do, I posted a list to Talk:Cold fusion, of lenr-canr.org pages that I'd gotten whitelisted for use as convenience links in the article, and I was about to start adding those when I was banned. There will be some opposition, but that's okay. Just put in the convenience links that were listed, they are to papers that were, at the time, already in the list of sources, so that people can easily find them. I will watch and help you with supporting arguments, or suggest abandoning one or another of them if there are reasonably cogent objections. Just getting a few in will help the project in the long run. It's almost time to go to meta and get the global blacklisting lifted, and the actual usage of a few more sources may help.
Enric, if you read this, you could help with this, too.
V, I also managed to get http://newenergytimes.com delisted, as you can see. But it turned out, I hadn't noticed, that NET relies on a fair use claim to host certain important works, such as the 2009 Naturw. paper by Mosier-Boss. They can get away with that, apparently, because they have author support, for sure, but that does mean that the specific link was properly disallowed by an editor here. There are other possible links to NET, though, whenever we want to cite opinion within the field. NET interviews or publishes correspondence with all the notable scientists working in the field. Those sources can sometimes be used with caution and attribution. Usage of NET is tricky, because there is a publisher bias that can be asserted. In fact, NET's goal is to be neutral, but obviously they have a specialized interest. We do have the article I created, New Energy Times. There is also an article on Infinite Energy, which actually does publish some very interesting articles, with authors notable in the field, and some pretty wigged-out ones. We had these as See-alsos for a while. They should be there for further reading or as a see-also. I put them in for the former, but it was changed to a see-also by an editor, which I accepted, six of one and a half dozen of the other. But then they were both taken out, tradeoff is that the Britz bibliography was inserted. They should all be there, in fact. Britz refers to lenr-canr.org, which helps. But it's crazy that there are two regular publications (print with IE, web with NET) which exist that extensively cover the topic of the article, and they aren't listed. It's a reflection of cabal bias. "Fringe" is not an argument for exclusion, but for balance and caution. -- Abd ( talk) 19:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
[7] I don't have a copy of the actual paper, but it doesn't matter at this point. You are correct. From the abstract alone, this paper is a confirmation of Arata, establishing notability. Kirk is COI and does not agree with RS and NPOV policy. He rejects the content of the paper, as he rejects all positive cold fusion results and review, he always finds a reason. But we depend on the peer-reviewers and what they pass and don't pass, Wikipedia is not concerned with Truth. More accurately, we leave that judgment to others: publishers and peer reviewers.
The argument he raises is a generic one: most cold fusion experiments are not exact replications. The application here is a bit poor; the Kitamura work is, in fact, a replication, though it reports on different aspects, it seems. The level of the effect is known to depend on the exact alloy and preparation, which affects surface area per weight, and so this would likely explain the quantitative differences. Kitamura used an independent fabrication (which makes it more of an independent replication).
Kirk's original research on the content is of low relevance to our inclusion standards. We can criticize, for example, very cogently, Albagli's work in 1989 from MIT, but we don't. The paper was accepted by peer review, however flawed it was. If we are going to criticize, it will be because the criticism is found in a review, under peer review, and we will present it neutrally, in apposition, probably with attribution.
Good luck. I will be paying less and less attention to Wikipedia, but if you have questions, you are welcome to email me. The kit project is finding some support from names in the field, which is probably crucial to its success. To work, the engineering must be a solid representation of the art, and the art is not fully published. That is, in fact, one aspect that we will be addressing, because the documentation necessary to manufacture the kits will be the missing publication. These kits will enable massive exact replication. Theoretically, they could also enable massive disconfirmation! If we are unable to develop engineering to make kits showing a consistent effect (at least, if the actual phenomena vary from cell to cell, statistically significant), given all the work that has been done and the reports of 100% success (secondary review, He Jing-Tang, Frontiers of Physics in China), I will insure that this fact is published. Further, should we show a consistent effect, there is then an experiment for skeptics to examine and debunk, if they can. It's quite possible that calorimetry won't be part of the first kits, it's too tricky, but kit design is still very, very open. -- Abd ( talk) 15:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I formally grant Abd permission to say anything he wants on this page. I won't guarantee to read all of it, :) --but he has no significant dispute here, and therefore no formal editing restriction applies here. V ( talk) 19:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Objectivist, I have noticed a downward trend in the civility of your comments. You have used the comment "chosen-to-be-ignorant" [8] and "heh" [9] in ways that I consider insulting. Please be more polite to other editors, and please refrain from posting so much text that does not discuss edits to the article. Olorinish ( talk) 22:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
V, I'll look for possible sources in the SPAWAR papers, as you requested in the cold fusion talk page. In the meantime, I would appreciate if you could comment on my proposal change for the lead (privately here, if you prefer).
I noticed that it's not possible to send you private e-mails. If you want to change this, you just need to enter your e-mail address in your preferences. Pcarbonn ( talk) 11:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Real heat, not to mention neutrons! Maybe [10] will help? 76.254.70.144 ( talk) 09:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Interesting. Not much experimental data presented, though. V ( talk) 14:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I find it amusing that the talk page for the cold fusion article asks for sources, but ordinary non-wikipedia people can't add any. Did you know about these two recent peer reviewed literature reviews?
Biberian, J.-P.; Armamet, N. (2008) "An update on condensed matter nuclear science (cold fusion)." Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie. Volume: 33, Issue: 1-2, Pages: 45-51. Abstract: The discovery of Cold Fusion was announced on March 23, 1989 at a press conference at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. The two discoverers: Stan Pons and Martin Fleischmann described their electrochemical device that produces more heat than the electric energy used to run it. Since then lot of progress has been made, and it is more and more obvious that this phenomenon now named Condensed Matter Nuclear Science is a genuine scientific research field with many important potential applications. It is the purpose of this paper to present an update of the worldwide research.
Sheldon, E. (2008) "An overview of almost 20 years' research on cold fusion. A review of 'The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction: A Comprehensive Compilation of Evidence and Explanations about Cold Fusion.'" Contemporary Physics. Volume: 49, Issue: 5, Pages: 375-378. Full text: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a906882120&fulltext=713240928
They say that Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the secondary sources. If you would, please bring those secondary sources to the attention of the other cold fusion article editors. I want to see what they have to say about them. Thank you.
128.32.83.52 ( talk) 00:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
OK. Thank you.
Archive after Reliable Sources Noticeboard discussion. 99.22.95.69 ( talk) 00:24, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
This NASA report from 1989 found excess heat. Will the cold fusion editors want to include it? 71.198.176.22 ( talk) 08:18, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of previously published material to our articles as you apparently did to Talk:Beginning of human personhood. Please cite a reliable source for all of your information. Thank you. -- Orange Mike | Talk 20:05, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Please stop. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by adding your personal analysis or synthesis into articles, as you did to Talk:Person, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. -- Orange Mike | Talk 20:05, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. As it happens, I think I was the one who originally found the document at the NCAS site (it was the only copy on the Web I could find outside lenr-canr.org). If there is a link to the original document in the copy at your site, then I'm going to get it (downloading as I write this). Finally, whatever you intended, when you added your introduction to it (and to other documents?), it was not spelled out clearly enough, which led the anti-CF crowd to misuse it against you. Perhaps you should re-edit all your introductions to indicate plainly that your added material "ends here", and after it follows the original unedited source-document. You might even add a link at the very start, just to allow someone to jump past your introduction and go straight to the original unedited source-document. Perhaps the blacklist can be lifted afterward... V ( talk) 17:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Someone deleted the whole discussion. Fortunately, I was able to recover my comments from the archive. I need to preserve that statement in case someone attacks me. - Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.41.126.65 ( talk) 13:57, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
[11] Thanks. FYI, http:/lenr-canr.org has been delisted, my request at meta was successful, and it may be freely used now for convenience links, and under some circumstances for original work hosted there by a recognized expert. See the prominent mention of lenr-canr.org at [12]. That is, a highly reliable source has referred readers to the web site so that they can readily read papers that may otherwise be quite difficult to find.
It was never true that I was the only person interested in using links to the site; when the site was blacklisted, links were removed, and this was before I ever edited in the topic; as well, the link at Martin Fleischmann was extensively debated, and efforts to remove the link, under the usual arguments, were roundly rejected. But the links will not be used unless an editor is bold enough to replace them, and follow dispute resolution process if that's resisted! -- Abd ( talk) 13:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
V, you have suggested that problems on theory at Cold fusion might be resolved with a link to v:Cold fusion. That's no solution. The Wikiversity page should be an interwiki link from the article, using a template in the External Links section, and not a reference for any subtopic. It is a place for students of the topic to explore it, to ask for expert opinion, share research, etc. Original research is indeed allowed there, and, for that reason, any specific Wikiversity page may not satisfy Wikipedia NPOV and sourcing standards. That is not an obstacle to an interwiki link, though, the position that a WV page is "self-published" isn't the case. It's a wiki, and it is a WMF wiki, which requires a neutrality policy, it merely deals with neutrality in a different way. As it happens, almost nobody other than me has edited those pages in a long time. But it's not for lack of invitations! It should be a general guideline that interwiki links, to other WMF wikis, are allowed and encouraged. That is the implication of the guideline already.
Wikiversity does not host encyclopedia articles, generally, though it's been used as an incubator on occasion. That is, a class there might work on pages intended for wikipedia, to be exported to Wikipedia, it's been done many times. And original research on Wikipedia can be moved to Wikiversity. And an interwiki link placed if the resource on Wikiversity is sufficiently relevant to the Wikipedia article. This, then, encourages more people to see and work on the learning resources on Wikiversity.
The problems on theory at the Wikipedia article should be resolved by covering in the article the notable theories that are discussed in secondary sources, for sure. There is plenty on this. I've started a Wikiversity page on Cold fusion/theory, but it isn't sourced yet. Care to help? -- Abd ( talk) 19:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cold_Fusion_Hypothesis --just so I don't have to hunt this link down in the future.
I noted that someone mentioned my name in the Cold Fusion talk section. I am permanently banned from there and the rest of Wikipedia too as far as I know. However, it seems I can write messages here. Anyway, you might want to inform Mr. Mouse that:
In the first report of heat after death, the energy release exceeded the amount of energy that could have been stored by hydrogen by a factor of 1,700 (650 J versus 1.1 MJ), and the event happened 116 times faster than a hydrogen release would allow (6 hours versus 696 hours). Some subsequent heat after death reports have exceeded the limits of chemical storage by even larger margins.
- Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.73.234 ( talk) 22:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Hmmmm . . . As a test, I added a comment. It is still there a half-hour later. Maybe whoever it was who banned me has been banned in turn. Or they have lifted the ban. Or it was a lie. Anyway, I have no desire to participate. I am sure Mr. Mouse will continue to insist that hydrogen storage can explain heat after death, even though that is like saying anyone can jump over Mt. Everest. Skeptics opposed to cold fusion never pay attention to quantitative proof that they are wrong. - Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.73.234 ( talk) 20:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Some nitwit will probably erase this. Let me copy it here in case you don't get a chance to read it --
The hypothesis that unboiled water left the cell was tested rigorously by several methods, in hundreds of experimental runs at Toyota, the French AEC and elsewhere. It was shown to be incorrect. Some of the methods were: 1. A careful inventory the salts left in the cell showed that only D2O left the cell. 2. Heat after death was confirmed with closed, boiling cells, using different calorimeter types. 3. Boil off events in null cells were induced with high powered electrolysis (instead of cold fusion heat), and the input power required to drive the water out agreed with textbook heat of vaporization. The cells are designed with buffers and small holes at the top to prevent unboiled water from leaving the cell. This is essential for various other reasons, such as keeping contamination out of the electrolyte.
It is amazing how these skeptics imagine they are the first people to come up with the idea that unboiled water might have left the cell. They imagine that hundreds of the world's top electrochemists never thought of that!
I must stop posting messages there. It is a bad habit. - Jed
Ah! MastCell banned me again. What an incorrigible scamp he is! Over at the Energy Catalyzer article one of the skeptics deleted the output power from the description, leaving a vague impression that the power was 400 W or 80 W (the input power). Anyway, if Rossi succeeds, eventually these skeptics will go away. If he fails, I fear there may not be many more chances for cold fusion. The $280 million investment is what matters now. I hope it is real, and the deal does not fall through, and Rossi is able to make a 1 MW prototype unit. I cannot understand why he is making a 1 MW machine when Defkalion plans to sell much smaller ones. I suppose there is a reason, but I have no clue what it could be. Unless Levi is in cahoots with Rossi, I think that fraud is ruled out, for the technical reasons given here: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3214604&posted=1#post3214604 And here: http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v310.php - Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.7.250 ( talk) 14:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Arggg! It turns out Rossi is not shipping systems to Sweden anytime soon. He just told me he will not. He did say there will be another test soon with improved calorimetry. I think he said it will be in Bologna. He is in Florida, and he is stuck here for while, so they will do the next tests without him. That's good news!
He says all kinds of stuff in his blog. It is hard to follow, and sometimes contradictory. I compiled a list of his statements, which someone else converted to Wiki format here:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Andrea_A._Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Generator:Rossi%27s_Hints
- Jed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.88.147.207 ( talk) 22:18, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
There's some recent stuff at the bottom of the CF Talk page concerning the LENR-CANR web site. Looks to me like some of it is more of the same nonsense you have defended against before. Jed, if you reply here about it, I can try to keep your remarks "alive" longer than they tend to survive on other WP pages (heh, one more reason to delay archiving stuff). V ( talk) 16:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I saw your comment on MFD, about someone referring to "soap box". I took a quick look at your edit count, and it looks like all you've done on Wikipedia is talk. [13] Wikipedia isn't a debating club. Just a suggestion. I have only read a small part of your output, so I won't comment on the quality or content. But I'd suggest that if you're offended at the term then you might think of spending more time improving articles and less time sharing your views, no matter how correct or insightful they may be. Will Beback talk 07:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Your request for arbitration has been declined. The voting arbitrators felt that this was not as it stood a matter for the committee, noting the MfD that has been initiated. For the Arbitration Committee Alexandr Dmitri ( talk) 11:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I was going to try to ignore your soapboxing but it doesn't appear that you're going to stop anytime soon. These remarks at WikiProject Conservatism [14] [15] and this long thread [16] at MfD are disruptive. Please read WP:SOAP for more info. – Lionel ( talk) 07:46, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Hello, Objectivist. Please be aware that a user conduct request for comment has been filed concerning your conduct on Wikipedia. The RFC entry is located at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Objectivist, where you may want to participate. NYyankees51 ( talk) 22:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC) Thanks, NYyankees51 ( talk) 22:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious to know how conservatives address issues in which they exhibit hypocrisy (besides deleting posts that point it out). For example, many conservatives claim that human life is valuable (a reason to oppose abortion), while simultaneously opposing any Minimum Wage Law that is designed to help keep alive humans that are already born. Also, conservatives generally oppose the idea that if somebody wants something, then someone else should pay for it --prime example: women on Welfare having more babies at public expense. Logically, however, it follows that if conservatives are against abortions, then that means that conservatives should pay for the births they want to happen, and for the costs of raising those children.... Well, that's just a couple of the obvious hypocrisies of conservatives. There are others. But these are enough to get started, in seeking answers to such issues. Thanks in advance! V ( talk) 10:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
This statement is not about the content of any conservatism articles, but a general statement about your understanding and opinion of one aspect of it. It would be helpful to everyone involved if you would acknowledge that you understand why posting such a statement is inappropriate. If you're not sure why it's inappropriate, please review WP:NOTAFORUM, which states:
Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing. This applies to articles, categories, templates, talk page discussions, and user pages. Therefore, content hosted in Wikipedia is not for:
...
2. Opinion pieces. Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics [like abortion, perhaps? -B2C], may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (for example, passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this.
Second source [18] page 8 and 9 report about Arata replication by McKubre. Maybe that will do ? -- POVbrigand ( talk) 16:41, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. causa sui ( talk) 20:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
{{
unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
, but you should read the
guide to appealing blocks first.
causa sui (
talk)
17:21, 30 November 2011 (UTC)User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Objectivist/Abortion Debate during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. ASCIIn2Bme ( talk) 16:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Objectivist ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
Actually, this is not an unblock request yet; this is mostly just a test. Because I don't know enough yet about how this is supposed to work. The "appeal guide" indicates that this should be added to the bottom of my user page (check). In theory this new text should have been located just below the block notification, but before I got around to it, something else got added first. So now, if some sort of overall unblock discussion is supposed to happen, it already has been interrupted. So, should this text really have been added to the previous section, to keep it together/consistent? Next, when I get around to actually requesting an unblock, I will have to gather a lot of data showing the difference between my actions and how those actions were described/distorted by those who favored the block. Simple immediate proof of such distortions can be found on two discussion pages mentioned above, which I now can't edit due to the block. In the discussion page linked just above, User:NYyankees51 claims that a certain other page has "zero chance of ever potentially being useful", implying that events in the far far future are predictable. Obviously a false statement has been made, therefore, even if it looks to be reasonably true with respect to the short-term future (if the page wasn't deleted). There were a lot of equivalent distortions of reality made; I specified a few others on the Noticeboard/Incident page that is mentioned a few sections above this one. Also, please note on that page how a completely new reason for a block entered the discussion, shifting it abruptly from the reasons that were originally offered, even though only those original reasons were specified when the block was done, and not the new one! Is that not another distortion of reality? Thank you! V ( talk) 06:15, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Decline reason:
Procedural decline, since this isn't actually an unblock request. To answer your question, the formatting/placement is fine. However, please note that when you do make an unblock request, it will be far, far more beneficial to your chances if you describe how you will act differently going forward than to argue the merits of the block itself. 28bytes ( talk) 06:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
To improve the article:
1) Wiki needs to view it as science.
2) Wiki needs to recognize which scientific journals are utilized and sourced by scientists in this field of physics.
I predict a tremendous increase in the readability of the article.
Query to the Scientific Community: To the Directors of Physics Departments,
LENR - Low Energy Nuclear Reaction and Widom Larson Theory, aka Condensed Matter Nuclear or Lattice Enabled Nuclear; historically misnamed "Cold Fusion"
1) Is this science or pathological science?
2) Do you offer a class in this discipline? If so, please provide information.
3) Are you developing a curriculum of this science? If so, when will you offer it?
4) What peer review journals do you source in this field?
Diza, P>S> 1) Any suggestions or criticisms before I move forward with this? 2) Is this direction of query able to yield opinions the Wikipedia forum on Cold Fusion may value? Thank you for your time, Gregory Goble gbgoble@gmail.com (415) 724-6702-- Gregory Goble ( talk) 00:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
To the extent that researchers in any field follow the Scientific Method, that field can be properly called a "science". To the extent that researchers ignore criticisms of experimental procedure, or don't take all the relevant data into account, or even unconsciously bias their experiments toward desired results, then those researchers could be committing "pathological science". There is nothing wrong with the label "cold fusion" if it is an accurate label (about nuclear fusion happening at relatively low temperatures) --and, personally, I tend to think that to try to change that label to something else is to admit there is something wrong with it (in other words, a bad idea, if the CF researchers are actually correct!).
I'm not a formal teacher; I haven't studied the Widom-Larson theory enough to comment on it, and I can't afford to access ordinary peer-reviewed journals. V ( talk) 05:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I have made a request to the Arbitration Committee to amend the Abortion case, in relation to the structured discussion that was to take place. The request can be found here. Regards, Steven Zhang Join the DR army! 04:09, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Hey Objectivist. This is just a notification that a binding, structured community discussion has been opened by myself and Steven Zhang on behalf of the Arbitration Committee. As you were named as a involved party in the Abortion case, you may already know that remedy 5.1 called for a "systematic discussion and voting on article names". This remedy is now being fulfilled with this discussion. If you would like to participate, the discussion is taking place at WP:RFC/AAT. All the best, Whenaxis talk · contribs | DR goes to Wikimania! 22:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)