Welcome, newcomer!
Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:
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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.
You can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: PrimeBOT ( talk) 21:38, 20 September 2021 (UTC).
Best of luck, and have fun!
Clockwork Soul 06:12, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
You have broken the 3 revert rule. Any further breaches will result in a block. If you find yourself in a simular situation in future the wikipedia disspute resolution process may prove useful. Geni 05:52, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dave,
I am writing you this message in order to try to find some common ground on the Terri Schiavo affair. I respect that you have your point of view, and I respect and commend you for being so dedicated and committed to what you believe to be right. At the same time, I would like to apologise for perhaps saying a few harsh things which I might not have said had I had time to think about them properly first.
However, your recent changes to the article perplex me, and make me question whether you are indeed interested in writing a quality encyclopaedia, as you claim, or whether you just want to put forward a particular point of view. My complaints can be boiled down to:
That's all for now. I hope that we can get along and ensure that the Terri Schiavo article is a quality article without any significant POV.
Lankiveil 07:47, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC).
Sorry about the style issues -- I have no sense of style. The "grammatical abuse" is in your imagination, though.
When "community consensus with regards to bias" is that the article should be a Felos propaganda piece, riddled with false statements and blatant bias, then you are correct, I refuse to accept it.
When I see something that is poorly written or ambiguous, I try to help out by fixing it. My Wikequette edit was just that, as you can see: a clarification of ambiguity, in conformance with the obviously intended original meaning. You're welcome. NCdave 20:53, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi Dave, I noticed that you've been making some edits to articles (such as Wikipedia:Wikiquette) to support your arguments on the Terri Schiavo talk page... It's always great to see more people getting involed in the wikipedia process, but it isn't approiate to go making edits just to support your position in an a debate, or at least it's not a great idea to go redefining chunks of wikipedia when you're a fairly new user involved in a hotly contested issue. ... It just doesn't give people the right impression of your intentions. I've reverted the changes that I thought were troublesome. Gmaxwell 09:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
BTW, here's an up to date link to NCdave's Wikiquette edits. NCdave 20:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Cvaneg, for reverting 66.52.193.147's "call dave at work, here's the number" addition to my user profile. That explains why I got a harrassing anonymous phone call at work today (well, yesterday, now). (I also got a similar email.) This is the work of one of the partisans for Michael Schiavo, who don't like what I have to say on the Talk:Terri_Schiavo page. Sweet folks, eh? Unfortunately, he also put it in the history comments, which is unremovable. NCdave 09:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone vandalized your user page and I rolled it back for you. Mike H 05:28, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
I already heard most of your comments from legitimate news sources, thanks for the input. Your comments, mostly insinuation and hypotheticals, were much too wordy so I really didn't read it word for word. Regardless of what type of bastard Michael Schiavo was, he was Terry's bastard, to her great fortune. I pray to God that my husband takes care of me in the same fashion as Terry, has the courage that maybe my parents wouldn't, if I am ever in her situation. Game over baby.... If I were a vegetable, I would be glad my husband would get on with his life and have many kids with any woman he wanted in my stead. If my life was over, his shouldn't be. Revmachine21 13:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that on the talk page of Terri Schiavo you seem to think that the fact that Schiavo was given painkillers is proof that Terri really wasn't in a persistent vegetative state. I think you are missing something very important here.
Let me restate your argument:
But statement four needs another qualifier: "If the hospice is perfectly rational, then the hospice is lying." And that qualifier is obviously not true. Doctors and nurses are people, not robots. Most people (including myself) can't help but feel empathy for other humans. That means that people will instinctively perceive another human in a situation that would be uncomfortable to themself as "uncomfortable", "in pain", "suffering".
One thing to note is that many of the visible responses to pain are reflexive. So someone can react to pain without being aware of it. (Even amoebas are capable of reacting to stimuli, and only panpsychists would claim that microscopic organisms are conscious.)
As you said, Terri was given drugs to "quiet her". But that does not mean that she was conscious, or that the hospice thought she was conscious. It merely means that, despite their knowledge, the staff of the hospice could not (nor would they want to) throw off their empathy. So they made an effort to "make Terri comfortable", even though they knew it was more for the benefit of themselves (and anybody else in the room) than Terri.
Why do we "make comfortable" comatose patients? Why do we try to not be cruel to animals that we don't view as self-aware? Why do we lay the dead on cushions? We do so because we are human, not because we assume consciousness.
Now, some people might bring up the hard problem of consciousness in response to these actions. (How do we know if Terri is conscious or not? We medicate her on the off-chance that she is suffering even though we know that is impossible.) But I think that is merely because people have an easier time admitting the fallibility of their knowledge than the irrationality of their emotions.
Not that I'm saying that irrationality is bad. Perfect rationality leads to a world that is devoid of meaning (although excessive irrationality does the same thing). I certainly felt empathy for Terri Schiavo, even though I knew Schiavo felt nothing.
I hope we can discuss this in a calm and reasonable manner. -- L33tminion | (talk) 22:55, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
For most of 15 years Terri Schiavo had a standing order for analgesics to relieve menstrual pain. There's no way that her caregivers believed that she did not experience pain. She behaved as if she experienced pain, which is all, existentially speaking, we know for certain about anyone else's experience of pain. When someone behaves as if they are experiencing pain, the only rational conclusion is that they are experiencing pain, even though you can't prove it in an absolute sense.
Also, take at look at the [http://www.infowars.com/articles/life/schiavo_terris_exit_protocol.htm Exit Protocol] that her hospice doctor wrote up for her in 2001. Take special note of the instructions to use analgesics for symptoms of pain and discomfort: "Monitor symptoms of pain/discomfort. If noted, medicate with Naproxen rectal suppository 375 mg. Q8 prn." If you tell me that you don't think that means that he thought she could experience pain, I won't believe you. NCdave 04:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That's standard procedure even for the comatose. Such procedures are not for the comfort of the unconscious, but for the comfort of those around them. One of the things it does is make the patient seem more comfortable. Even the unconscious can seem to be in pain. "Making them comfortable" makes them seem more comfortable, which comforts the families and loved ones of the patients (as well as the other patients and hospital staff).
It is intuitive to believe that someone who seems to be in pain is suffering. But sometimes intuition can run counter to fact. If, for example, that person is missing most of their brain.
If you want to make some sort of panpsychic argument that the removal of the area of the brain responsible for consciousness might not have removed consciousness, then why would dying remove Terri's consciousness? (Certainly that's the religious belief...)
Why don't you call up a local hospice or hospital and ask them if is standard procedure to medicate terminal patients who are known to be comatose or in a persistent vegetative state? -- L33tminion | (talk) 05:27, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
L33minion, somebody has been lying to you. A patient who is unconscious does not react to pain stimulus, and so there are no "symptoms of pain/discomfort," and therefore no analgesics can be given in response to such symptoms. Nor are analgesics customarily given to comatose patients, simply because they cannot feel pain or react to pain. For example, see
[1] which is a reference to a study of the use of analgesics and sedatives in terminal patients from whom life support has been withdrawn. The abstract notes that, "Patients who did not receive medication were comatose and considered incapable of benefiting from sedation and analgesia." In fact, sedation to unconsciousness is commonly used instead of analgesics, to give peace to patients who cannot be made comfortable with analgesics.
Also, the claim that Terri was missing most of her brain is untrue. Two of the neurologists that George Felos selected testified that that was the case, based on examination of her CT scans, but the two Felos-selected neurologists contradicted each other. One said that most of her brain had been replaced by "spinal fluid." The other said that most of her brain was "scar tissue." Obviously, at least one of them was talking nonsense: scar tissue and spinal fluid do not look remotely similar on a CT scan. [2]
In fact, neurologists aren't qualified to interpret CT scans, anyhow. That's a job for radiologists. The two radiologists three radiologists that I know of who looked at Terri's CT scans both all concluded that her brain was significantly atrophied, but not nearly as bad as Felos's handpicked neurologists claimed, and doubted that she was in a PVS. Radiologist Thomas Boyle, M.D. (host of the award-winning CodeBlueBlog web site), who has interpreted over 10,000 brain CT scans, wrote, "I have seen many walking, talking, fairly coherent people with worse cerebral/cortical atrophy. Therefore, this is in no way prima facie evidence that Terri Schiavo's mental abilities or/or capabilities are completely eradicated. I cannot believe such testimony has been given on the basis of this scan."
NCdave 21:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The guy who first nominated you hasn't bothered to inform you (not really good etiquette), but you have been put up for RFC. The page is here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NCdave. Proto 11:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed you flagged these edits: [3] [4] and as minor. In reality, only the 2nd one was minor, as it was tweaking a typo from the first edit. I personally have no opinion on the article and this is not about whether or not the article deserves those tags, and as you can see I have never editted it. Please see Wikipedia:Minor edits for further clarification. Cheers. Burgundavia 09:40, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
I'm willing to make a compromise with you because I don't particularly feel like running you off wikipedia, which some others feel this rfc may do. And, despite what you might think, I don't particularly want you as an enemy either. If you come back to the Terri Schiavo page, and if you make a collaborative effort with the other editors, I will withdraw my support for rfc. -Professor Ninja
The amount of evidence against you is lengthy enormous, ... -Ninja
...and I suspect that that's only because in two months you've never had a disciplinary action taken against you; they're a slap in the face and they can serve to smarten anybody up. Consider this a peer disciplinary action. You have undoubtedly made excellent contributions in the past. However, that doesn't excuse your other behaviour, and you need to understand this. You've made everybody jumpy with your edits to the talk page and articles. Work with people to achieve consent; that's all anybody's ever asked. -Ninja
People call you out because of your history. Take it, and prove them wrong. I'm frankly tired of wading through the diffs to see what you've done, and I'd rather just achieve a compromise with you. -Ninja
Try to remember a few things:
1. People aren't here to kill Terri or support her death. We're here to make a relevant article concerning her life.
2. Recognize your own bias; you undoubtedly have your beliefs and that's fine. But beliefs and facts don't always mix, neither do speculation and facts. The speculation might be true, but it has to pass an evidence test. If you feel a conflict of interest coming on, ask another editor to look at the section and see what needs to be done.
3. Two wrongs don't make a right, or two POVs don't make an NPOV. When it comes to speculation and criticism, give everybody a fair share. When it comes to hard facts, deal only with the facts. Don't couch your own criticism in weasel words. If you feel there's valid criticism, cite it concisely and include it. -Ninja
4. Apologize. People take being slighted amazingly well when a person admits they overstepped their bounds. They'll usually agree they helped escalate it. Only the most asinine of people really believe somebody's beyond redemption.
5. Relax, don't jump around the talk page so much. State something cogently and move on. Acknowledge rebuttals. Offer up pieces of evidence or documents as such, not as absolutes that must be obeyed. Acknowledge conflict of interest even if it comes from a POV you agree with. It comes from all sides.
6. Don't misquote people or misattribute statements they've made. Be charitable; if somebody says something that can mean two things, take it the polite way instead of the condescending way.
7. Don't rag on people for things like "Pearson" when they clearly mean "Pearse". It's a simple little typo that anybody can make, and it makes you come off really condescending. -Ninja
8. You don't have to repeat the same things over and over, it makes people not listen to you. Keep sections on topic, tangents really annoy people. Having a conversation about one thing when somebody jumps in the middle of it spouting off is annoying as hell.
9. Don't go at things with such bombast, because it gets everybody in the mood. A guy walks into a gun store full of customers with a .45 drawn demanding cash, and pretty soon the whole place is riddle with bullet holes and blood. Make your points with gentle persuasion, not outbursts. -Ninja
10. Take a deep breath, walk away. It's hard as hell, especially when you have a point to make. Fire up a random page and do a style or copy edit. Come back. Think about editing the article. Edit the article for style instead of POV. Let somebody else handle it.
etc...
I've never gotten anybody banned in my life, or deleted, suspended, or disciplined. Ever, because I don't believe in it, and I don't feel like starting now. You're already teetering dangerously close with your edit history, and most of that is from me, and I'd feel very responsible if a more drastic action was taken against you. Prove your worth in collaborations, not by turning wikipedia into a pulpit. Professor Ninja 18:57, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
I blocked you for three days. I don't relish it and I regret that I was forced to do it, but it was necessary. Dave, look at your contribs. Every single one has been to Terri Schiavo or to its talk page, or to the RfC on you. Your edits are very clearly POV, and have come into unanimous opposition on talk. Reverting, talk page rants, and disruption—even in the face of dozens of users telling you otherwise—is unacceptable at Wikipedia. Take three days off and come back. With warmest regards -- Neutrality talk 20:32, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
Dude, when you don't have many friends on here, be nice to the ones you have. I wouldn't talk back to an admin that was trying to politely carry out policy. Ya there are POV problems, but a war isn't always won with harsh words. Saksjn ( talk) 00:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
See e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Terri_Schiavo&diff=13643269&oldid=13642978
where we say:
[11] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Terri_Schiavo&diff=13629402&oldid=13629325)
NCdave's version is described as the 'less POV version'. now THAT is whacky. FuelWagon 03:20, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
The vandal has been reported here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Current_alerts) FuelWagon 04:01, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
You did not document your claim on that page as well as you did here; I clarified and affirmed some of your claim and overturned other of it here: [12] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Current_alerts) --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 04:44, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress&diff=0&oldid=13644183
where we say:
209.170.130.127 209.170.130.127 (talk · contributions) vandalizing the Terri Schiavo page multiple times. FuelWagon 03:30, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Fuel Wagon did not list the diff to back up his accusation; here is it: [1] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Terri_Schiavo&diff=13629402&oldid=13629325) --comments: While I believe it was NC Dave who did the "vandalism," as shown in this diff [2] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Terri_Schiavo&diff=13641661&oldid=13641611) by the author of the above, this may amount to less than vandalism. Closer analysis of (apparently) NCdave's edit shows that he got a little talkative -and may have inserted either repetitive or slightly biased comments. (Mention of MCS initially may not be necessary, hence it may be repetitive; also, the breaking of the marriage vows by Mike Schiavo may not have relevance and be slightly distractive or biased.) However, since both sides of the court-appointed doctors were mentioned (those for and against the PVS diagnosis), it would not be fair to only list some "Pro-PVS" doctors that were not court-appointed. In this sense, it would only be fair that some Anti-PVS doctors who were not court-appointed be mentioned to balance those that Mike Schiavo is said to have hired. In that sense, Dave's edit is more stylistic and less vandalism. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 04:40, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Sincerely, -- GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 05:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in the Mediation regarding the Terry Schiavo article. Initial discussion is beginning at Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:28, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop deleting content from Talk:Terri Schiavo. -- Viriditas | Talk 05:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I feel that I should invite you to respond to this:
Vote - I am tiring of mediation, and hope we fix the problem soon: This may work'
Ok so there's non signing red users requiring eternal arguments - but even if it went by another name - the article does look poorer for the fact that the earlier stages of its life (under whatever name) is lacking ... SatuSuro 01:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Theblog 02:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I wrote some comments on the HPV vaccine talk page. Gynecology isn't really my thing-- so, I didn't really have that much to say. Any case, I hope the comments were of some use. Feel free to leave me other messages/questions on my talk-- and/or post to the doctor's mess. Nephron T| C 05:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
NCdave ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
I have not violated 3RR! I have been repeatedly reverted by other editors (esp. MastCell, JQ, and Yilloslime) on the Steven Milloy article, but have only done two reverts myself in the last week or more. Please unblock me. NCdave 09:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Referring to the 3RR Noticeboard...
My one and only 3RR violation was over two years ago, when I was new to Wikipedia and did not know the rules. OTOH, MastCell (the complainer in this case) was guilty of a 3RR violation on this same article just a few weeks ago -- June 18, to be precise -- and went unpunished.
The claim that I was warned is incorrect, too. JQ posted on the Talk page, "Note that a further reversion by you will violate WP:3RR." But that was incorrect, so I replied, "Actually, I've only done two reverts," a fact which was not contested. In fact, I've only done two reverts in the past week, anywhere on Wikipedia, and both of those were actually un-reverts. Moreover, I did no other reverts after that. I am not a revert warrior! There are very few occasions on Wikipedia when I have reverted someone else's work, and not without thorough discussion on the Talk page. The two reverts that I did yesterday were both un-reverts, accompanied by Talk page comments, in response to total, massive reverts of work in which I had invested a lot of time.
A majority of the corrections that I tried to make had been very thoroughly discussed on the Talk page. In the case of the DDT section, we'd gone through a very lengthy discussion, and I'd incorporated changes in the proposed section to address every issue raised, and weeks had without disagreement. I noted on the Talk page that it appeared we had finally achieved consensus on it, and then I put it in the article. Six minutes later MastCell reverted it, with no Talk page discussion at all.
Reflexive deleting of material he doesn't agree with is a pattern of behavior for MastCell. Not only did he commit a 3RR violation on June 18, 2007, just two days later, on June 20, he archived numerous "long-inactive threads" (his words) from the Steven Milloy talk page, quite a few of which had had activity as recently as 16 June or later. Typing "Ctrl-F" on the archive page and searching for "June 2007" finds eight comments. Some of them were less than 48 hours old. In each case, the most recent comments were comments that I had made.
The claim that "there is consensus against his [my] proposed edits" is false, as well. I am certainly not the only one to have noticed how awful this article is, and to have tried to fix it. Peroxisome, "Uncle Ed" Poor, Theblog, 66.75.3.244, 88.105.242.190, 202.61.229.85, 147.114.226.172, and others have all remarked that this article is either biased or inaccurate or both. Sections on the Talk page (which I did not create) were entitled things like, "Article is biased against Milloy"
[29], "This article is awful"
[30], and "NPOV"
[31], etc..
What's more, MastCell's fellow revert-warrior, Yilloslime, just DID commit a 3RR violation, today. Each of his four edits were exact reverts, not questionable cases, and that's all he did, just revert:
Thanks to MastCell, Yilloslime, JQ, and a few others, the Steven Milloy article is an extreme example of violation of
WP:BLP, and Wikipedia policy demands that it not be left in that condition. Here's a quote from an editorial critical of Milloy which is reproduced in the Steven Milloy article. I copy it here to show you how blatant the
WP:BLP violations are in this biography:
Now that is obviously not an accurate, NPOV summary of Milloy's views. It is a vicious caricature, a
straw man, and possibly defamatory. It has no place in a Wikipedia biography. Milloy is a respected journalist for FoxNews.com, with advanced degrees in biostatistics and law, who has made a career out of puncturing faulty scientific reports. He does not deserve to have this sort of falsehood told about him in Wikipedia. Nobody does.
JQ (who chimed in on my false 3RR charge) defended that vicious caricature, by pointing out that it was an accurate quote of someone else. That's the main source of all that criticism in the article: quotes and paraphrases from unsupported statements by Milloy's most virulent critics. Here's another example:
Here's another example:
I can give you many, many other examples of
WP:BLP violations and inaccuracies in the Steven Milloy article, but I think you get the idea.
There was, at one time, a "praise" section and a "criticism" section, though there was also a lot of criticism outside the criticism section. The praise section (before it was banished to a footnote in the "books" section) was less than 1/15 the length of the criticism section. I'm not kidding. (I copy-pasted them each and used a character-counter.) Yet, even so, another editor asked, pointedly, "Why is there a criticism section here? The whole article is critical."
[41] Which is true.
I've tried my best to help clean up this mess, and I've been very careful not to violate any WP rules (at least, any that I am aware of), but for my trouble all I got was instant reverts, a false 3RR charge, and a 1 week ban. Tanj.
Please unblock me.
NCdave 12:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Decline reason:
You have consistently been caught revert warring and POV pushing. You should use this time to read up on WP:EW and WP:3rr — GDonato ( talk) 12:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish to contest this block. Adding a tag that has never before appeared at the top of a section to that section is certainly not "undoing the actions of another editor," which means that I did not violate 3RR. Please unblock me! NCdave 20:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
I will address only the WP:BLP issue, which has been opportunistically raised here by NCdave to justify his edit-warring. The BLP issue was raised here, and I responded to it at length, the bottom line being that reliably sourced criticism of a public figure acting in his public role does not violate BLP. As no one else shared NCdave's BLP concerns, I suggested he go to the BLP noticeboard to solicit outside opinions if he still felt that violations were being ignored. He chose, instead, to drop the BLP line in favor of other lines of attack (e.g. accusing other editors of vandalism during what was clearly a content dispute). I'm not going to respond further here or be drawn into an argument, but as the BLP issue has suddenly been re-raised to justify edit-warring, I've addressed it. MastCell Talk 18:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to continue arguing with you here. I merely wanted to address the BLP issue, as it was being raised as an ex post facto justification. I won't be posting further here. MastCell Talk 23:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Note, too, that:
Please unblock me. NCdave 11:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:GDonato
Peroxisome 22:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that you be banned from the Steven Milloy article for long-term tendentious editing. The relevant thread is on the community sanction noticeboard. MastCell Talk 22:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I have accepted your request to be mentored. Please see my talk page. -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 11:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Dave, first of all let me say that I am impressed that you are going down the mentorship path. It shows moral courage. I'm going to reply to your last email here so that your mentor can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong about anything. (Apologies in advance for the long post) You asked me to to explain what behaviour was unacceptable and why here are a few of the diffs and links to relevant policy:
You are right, Cailil. All I can say in my defense is that it was 2.5 years ago, and I'd only been on Wikipedia for just over a week, and was still learning the ropes. NCdave 23:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... the above comment [when inserted with a "::" prefix] messed up the numbering of Cailil's nicely numbered list. How does one go about inserting an indented comment in a numbered list, without resetting the number counter? NCdave 23:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)I guess by using the <blockquote></blockquote> HTML constructs? I've changed my "::"-prefixed and ":::"-prefixed comments to use nested <blockquote></blockquote> tags. That restored the numbering, but it seems less than ideal, because it causes successive comments to be rendered in successively smaller fonts. Is there a better way? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Cailil, would you please identify what you think is WP:SYN in that section?
Raymond Arritt was repeatedly asked that question, by multiple editors, but declined to answer. I truly would like to know. I can't see anything there that looks like synthesis to me. Raymond blanked the section just 10 minutes after I added it, and his edit summary was just "(rm WP:SYN, WP:OR per Talk)." Yet (despite his "per Talk" reference) he did not attempt to justify doing so on the Talk page. In fact, he never did. Immediately after he blanked the section, he was asked by multiple editors what was the alleged SYN and OR. [45] [46] [47] But he refused to answer, saying, "There was no point in adding to what was plainly stated in my edit summary". I pointed out the great lengths to which I had gone before adding the section, to answer all objections and achieve consensus. Another editor asked what was the supposed SYN and OR. I agreed and asked again, "where is the WP:OR and WP:SYN ... Please be specific." [48] [49]. No answer. A week later I asked again. Finally, after two weeks w/ no answer, I gave up. So I really would like to know what you think was WP:SYN in that section. NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but I wasn't wiki-lawyering. I just read the rules and tried to follow them. A straightforward reading of the rules indicates that I was not in violation of 3RR, since I did not bring the page back to what it looked like 4 (or even 3) times in a 24-hour period. NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
That diff just shows a punctuation improvement. It was not a rebuttal or argument with someone. NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
If you feel passionate about a subject its probably best to stay far away from its Wikipedia article. Passion for subject is a wonderful thing but wikipedia requires editors to be dispassionate about the subjects they edit.We admire them and want our visitors to see how fierce and clever they are, so we stuff them and mount them for close inspection. [...] But however much we adore tigers, a live tiger loose in the museum is seen as an urgent problem.
Why not? Is there a policy somewhere on this?
And do you truly mean to say that a temporarily blocked user should never be permitted to answer accusations made against him? That's the result of forbidding comments in archives, when (as in this case) the accused is blocked before he learns of the complaint, and the discussion is archived before the block ends. That doesn't seem right, to me. Does it to you? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
That's interesting. I'd not seen Raul's laws. Does No. 13 seem as ironic to you as it does to me, since Raul (who banned me) certainly left no doubt where his sympathies lie? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Consider these points Dave. But please don't rush to rebut what I'm saying here. I've been careful in considering the diffs MastCell provided and what I found in your contribs. I'm what Durova calls a wikisleuth, I track down the most difficult to catch vandals. I never consider a WP:CSN case on face value, I've as often refused to support action as I have supported it because I try to conduct as thorough an investigation as possible into the situation.
Dave, you could make valuable contributions to wikipedia when you get to grips with these problems, take a look at the 5 pillars of WikiPedia or WP:EQ to gain a fuller understanding of the site's code of conduct. It is my most sincere hope that you can become a great wikipedian, but I must place this caveat, if you don't turn away from the above sort of bad behaviour more sanctions will come and they would be justified. This is your second chance, grab it with both hands-- Cailil talk 22:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Afterword: just so you know, I think the way you have behaved at Talk:HPV vaccine is an example of constructive editing.-- Cailil talk 00:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Cailil has done a pretty good job in summing up the issues that have brought us to this point. The only point that I differ with is the comment about passion. Passion can be a great asset to an editor. In theory you will be have a greater knowledge about the things you are most passionate about. The problem is that our greatest strengths are often our greatest weaknesses. When passion moves beyond knowledge of a subject and enters the realm of emotion only trouble can follow. So I would simply say to use extreme caution when editing something you feel strongly about and be particularly aware of any reverts, challenges or edits that seem to offend you. That could be a sign that you are too involved emotionally.
Now, let's talk about a couple of hard and fast rules I suggest you adopt. This is only a suggestion and it is designed to avoid any trouble at all. I don't expect you to agree with all of them but I can assure you that if you follow them you will have less friction in the future.
Why? Note that the editor who banned me had a clear conflict of interest. Should that not be grounds for lifting the ban which he imposed? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Now, these things are suggestions. I have no power to force you to do anything. I will enforce our policies here and work to make this the best encyclopedia possible. Work with me and you will soon be back in better or good standing. Good luck! -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 11:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC) [[Category:]]
As your mentor, I would suggest you cease any contact with User:MastCell. That includes the checkuser case and your CSN discussion. That's over lets move on ok? -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 11:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Blaylock's Wellness Report and his website [54] are published by NewsMax Media Inc. [55].
According to [56] the website blaylockreport.com was created 26 May 2004. The website material was probably written by a NewsMax HTML editor from a bunch of papers supplied by Blaylock's secretary and not written by Blaylock himself.
If you were to read my "latest" Resume written in the 1980's it would seem to claim that I am now working at my old Seattle job, which I have not had for many years after I retired. When Dr. Blaylock retired in 2003, he probably did not update his CV.
Yes, that hurts his credibility and he should correct this problem. I don't want to spend any more time on it, but if you want to ask him for more credible information, you could write to:
Advanced Nutritional Concepts
9 Lakeland Sq
Flowood, MS 39232
(601) 982-1175
I got those from a blog dated Sept 25, 2004 and may no longer be his current address. Greensburger 18:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Blaylock's Lakeland Square address seems to have changed to (or from ?) 1000 Lakeland Square Extension in Flowood, MS 39232-7650. This address is shared by several companies and individuals including Lakeland Family Clinic, Specialty Pharmacy, Cahoots Party World, etc.
Here are two web pages that gives his middle name as Lane and the year 1971 that he received his MD degree: [57] [58] The second page gives his PO Box address in Ridgeland, MS.
I suggest that we avoid giving his full middle name in the Wiki article so that we can continue to distinguish secondary sources from primary sources.
Here is a chatty note from Blaylock (scroll down to "71") that gives his email address. http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/alumni_affairs/tigerlines I am not going to email him. Greensburger 00:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
On the web site for the Louisiana State University School of Medicine there is this page: http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/alumni_affairs
that invites graduated students to order copies of their transcripts. "Requests cannot be made by 2nd parties." But maybe they will verify Russell L. Blaylock's claim to have received an MD degree from the LSU School of Medicine in New Orleans in 1971. I have not asked them. Greensburger 13:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe my edit to the article Talk page addressed your concerns. Greensburger 18:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the critical comments regarding that block. First thing, I want to draw your attention to WP:LINKSPAM: Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. Although the specific links may be allowed under some circumstances, repeatedly adding links will in most cases result in all of them being removed. What this means is that links that are not "spam" (noun) in the sense of blatant advertising can still be "spammed" (verb) across wikipedia. Christopher russo clearly was "spamming" the single link, in violation of these guidelines. Next, a third party had warned the user using standard warning templates up to the final warning. This was an unambiguous case of a user being in violation of a blockable offense. The purpose of blocks is not to punish, but to prevent disruptive editing from occurring. In retrospect, I could have kept my nose clean by asking for another admin to do the deed. However, at the time, I felt that I was not blocking due to a content dispute or 3RR or something that I was personally involved with. The spam warnings all came from another user, and Christopher russo was unambiguously in violation. However, in the future, I may want to avoid blocking anyone I have argued with to avoid the public shame of the warning you left on my user page ;) - Andrew c [talk] 15:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
How did you reach the conclusion that "the result was delete," for List of conductors? At the time you declared the result, the head count 5-4, which sounds like "no consensus" to me. The 9th person voted "delete." If you'd waited a little less time it would have been a 4-4 tie. If you'd waited a little more time it might have been a 5-5 tie. NCdave 01:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Sen. Helms instances of Bigotry are well documented during his tenure in office. Read the article under controversies and that alone is enough to warrant a label of Bigot. Stop writing half-truths and covering it with the title of encyclopedic literature.
Alvin Harris Grandextrav —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRANDEXTRAV ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Dave,
Common sense should tell you that just because Sen. Helms racist policies did not directly affect you personally, does not mean his racist rhetoric and actions toward others were non- exsistant.
Alvin A. Harris —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRANDEXTRAV ( talk • contribs) 19:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Dave,
Increasing efforts to combat AIDS in Africa??? Serouisly Dave, if you think that single effort on the part of Sen. Helms outwheighs his blatant racist rhetoric and lopsided policies towards minorities in his own country during his tenure then you are delusional and i do not care to conversate with you any further on this point.
Alvin A. Harris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.232.153.118 ( talk) 20:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
In your support of not telling people the entire truth of Sen. Jesse Helms instances of Bigotry , I seriously question your desire for truth and accuracy. Unless of course you share the same racist veiws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRANDEXTRAV ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
1.In columns, commentaries and pronouncements from the Senate floor, Helms sowed hatred and called names: The University of North Carolina was "the University of Negroes and Communists." (Capital Times, 11/22/94) Black civil rights activists were "Communists and sex perverts." (Copley News Service, 8/23/01)
2.Of civil rights protests Helms wrote, "The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere with other men's rights." (WRAL-TV commentary, 1963)
3.He also wrote, "Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life which must be faced." (New York Times, 2/8/81)
4.when a caller to CNN's Larry King Live show praised guest Jesse Helms for "everything you've done to help keep down the niggers," Helms' response was to salute the camera and say, "Well, thank you, I think." (Wilmington Star-News, 9/16/95)
Dave,
those examples alone warrant the label of Bigot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.232.153.118 ( talk) 22:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
1.Helms opposed the Martin Luther King holiday bill in 1983
2.After a protest during his 1986 visit to Mexico, Sen. Helms was quoted: "All Latins are volatile people": end quote
and lastly, i write in disgust!
3.As an aide to the 1950 Senate campaign of North Carolina Republican candidate Willis Smith, Sen. Helms helped create attack ads against Smith's opponent Frank Graham, including one which read: "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." :end quote
Dave,
is this enough? or should i continue to post more?
Alvin A. Harris
144.232.153.118 (
talk) 22:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC) : )
Hey, thanks for pointing that out for me, I didn't see the reference there. I removed the no references temp and fixed up the reference link so it appears in a reference list at the bottom of the page. Happy editing! Icestorm815 ( talk) 20:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Dave - This is going to be a controversial topic, and I hope and expect we'll find common ground quickly. It would be, I think, appropriate for that link or something like it to be somewhere in Wikipedia. I do appreciate your support! Simesa ( talk) 11:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I am contacting you here because I don't want to take up and more space on the article talk page with interpersonal issues. I have admitted to making 1 edit without an accompanying talk page discussion. That would be the 21:21, 18 February 2008 edit. However, like I explained, I thought this was a case of link spam. And editor had gone to 4 or so articles and added the exact same external link, and I also left a message for the editor on the first article I encountered the link. My next edit was roughly 14 hours later. Within 30 minutes of this edit, I posted my talk page explanation. I had started typing it right after I made the edit. But the delay in the post was due to me scouring the internet for sources. I was trying to find information to advance the position that CPCs offer adoption grants and only found that one source in my search. This is explained in that edit. I did receive an edit conflict when I hit "save page" because you had posted your two word "Good call" reply while I was composing my post. Immediately after that, I started writing a response to your post explaining my edit. This was posted minutes after my first reply. After I had finished explaining why I made my edit, I looked at the article to see that you had already reverted some of my changes without having read my replies and this is why I posted my "ACK!" comment (and I can see now that the reason was because you did your reverting while I was still typing up my reply). So I can see your perspective. You were impatient and were unaware that a talk page explanation was forthcoming. Now, can you see my perspective that my first edit of today DID in fact have not one, but two accompanying talk page explanations directed to the corresponding editors whose edits I modified. I apologize that research takes time and that I didn't type faster, but I do take offense at your claims that I edited without discussing. So hopefully we can clear up this stuff, and focus on the meat of the article! - Andrew c [talk] 21:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for participating in the discussion at abortion and mental health. I have added additional notes on the discussion page regarding materials that have consistently been purged. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.-- Strider12 ( talk) 02:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello, NCdave. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. MastCell Talk 23:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for omitting "Why don't you" in front of my comment which probably resulted in the misunderstanding. It's an analogy. James Dobson to homosexuality is almost like David Reardon, a source that she likes very much, to abortion. That was at least my opinion and that's why I said it. Please do not take my comments out of context in the future. мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ ( talk) 22:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
After reading your arguments on the 3R page, I am not sure if I did violate 3R. It was certainly not my intention, as there was much going back-and-forth between us both. At the time, I didn't think that I did violate 3R, and you didn't post the links on my talk page. I have been waiting for your response to my long post on the talk page of the article. I hope that consensus can still be built.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 03:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, I struck out the comment I made on the 3R notice board. While I continue to believe that the text you inserted about Psalm 39 is an advertisement, this fact may not be relevant to the issue at hand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:IronAngelAlice_reported_by_User:NCdave_.28Result:_.29 -- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 03:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Accusing other editors "tendentious edit-warring and POV-pushing" [61] in the absence of overwhelming evidence for such a characterization is beyond the pale and constitutes a personal attack. Please state your case in a more constructive manner. Let's all show the courtesy for others that we would expect for ourselves. Thanks Raymond Arritt ( talk) 19:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
When you edited Requests for comment/Strider12 you accidentally deleted massive amounts of unrelated text. I have reverted. Please reinsert (correctly) your edit. Sbowers3 ( talk) 20:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm writing to make it clear that some of your most recent comments to IAA on Talk:Crisis pregnancy center have been clearly unproductive and even uncivil at times. I understand that you are frustrated with that user, but please do not let your personal negative feelings come through on talk pages where content, not editors, should be the focus of discussion. It was appropriate to take your concerns and frustration to 3RR. There are also a number of other options you have here on wikipedia when dealing with difficult users. But verbal abuse simply is not one of the options. Saying things like Who are you kidding?? and Alice, it is plain that you have never darkened the door of a CPC. Why are you editing here? You are SO confused about them!... it is really obvious that you know very little about CPCs. and That's ridiculous. all build to have an antagonist tone. How would you respond to someone saying similar things to you? And then bringing up a 3RR report in 3 different comments will only work to bring about off topic discussion and interpersonal disputes. If you make personal accusations against editors on talk pages (like bringing up that they "inserting the false claim"s in the past), they are often inclined to defend themselves, and thus waste even more space which should be used to discuss article content. Please read through your comments while ignoring all the negative criticism directed towards IAA and see if the overall point is reduced.
Finally, a number of your comments have mentioned things from your personal experiences and anecdotes. I just want you to keep in mind that that sort of content is not appropriate in articles, and thus those lines or reasoning on talk pages are ultimately unproductive. We cannot cite your personal experience with the UCC or the Raleigh CPC or Project Rachel. I am not saying that you need to completely suppress your personal feelings and experiences on the matter, it just seems to me that large portions of some of your replies are unnecessary because those lines of reasoning cannot be translated to article content. Keep in mind that wikipedia talk pages are not simply a discussion forums, and that WP:SOAP applies there as well. And I honestly am not trying to be harsh here. I just don't want you to in essence "waste" time writing about personal anecdotes.
Thanks for listening and taking these things into consideration. Hope this helps and good luck!- Andrew c [talk] 16:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
For some time I have thought that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas article is not neutral, mainly because it gives undue weight to human emissions, and neglects to mention virtually any information about natural sources of GHGs. I attempted some edits, which are as expected being resisted by the articles authors. The problem is that I am stuck in a ridiculous situation where the authors refuse to acknowledge that the dispute about neutrality even exists, repeatedly removing the POV tag from the article despite the fact that I am obviously disputing it.
Repeatedly linking to wiki policy on NPOV disputes and quoting sections about not removing the POV tag simply because you disagree with it hasn't helped. I am being threatened with the 3RR if I add the tag again. I am not asking for you to put the tag back up for me (unless you also think that the article is not neutral) but I would welcome your input to the discussion. I am trying to keep the argument about the addition/removal of the POV tag, rather than being drawn into arguments about global warming. Restepc ( talk) 23:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Please read the rules on tagging. You do not spuriously tag a page, just because you do not like the current version, or because there is an ongoing discussion. That would make the POV tag appear on just about all articles, with a reasonable modicum of differing opinions.
If you believe that the page is exhibiting POV problems - then engage in Talk. That is a requirement for putting that tag on a page. That means: Specific descriptions of what you believe is POV, what can be done about it - and an active engagement in Talk.
I eagerly await your input on Talk, with specifics for your concern. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 22:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Hrafn inserted on my Talk page a big block of text consisting of comments by about 5 different editors, from an article Talk page, thus making it appear that those editors had commented here. I asked him to delete it, but he refused, and suggested that I delete it myself. Click on the links to see the material. NCdave ( talk) 15:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
'"if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed."'
Guy, the only one having the "ongoing dispute" is you, the Junior-league attorney. Consensus is -- well, not on your side. -- Calton | Talk 13:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
But a quick reminder, from above:
"This is just a friendly note to let you know that you have reverted Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed three times is less than 24 hours, so that you don't accidentally violate WP:3RR by reverting it a 4th time"
And this is a friendly reminder that:
-- Calton | Talk 13:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Several have brought your recent behavior to my attention, and looking over your participation at the Expelled article and several user talk pages over the last 24 hours, I'm issuing you a warning about WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, and edit warring. If you continue as you have I will seek a topic ban for you at that and any related articles and a block for distruption if necessary. FeloniousMonk ( talk) 17:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
WarthogDemon has smiled at you! Smiles promote
WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Cheers, and Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{
subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
- Warthog Demon 04:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I already tried to bring it up, if you have any more luck than I did, good for you. The easiest way to promote civilty is to "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you." Saksjn ( talk) 13:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Had you followed my replies to your comment on my talk-page you'd have noticed that i said that i reverted 2 times - not 3. Thats because one of the reverts is marked "RVV" which means "revert vandalism". the WP:3RR rule states:
So i have not breached 3RR. You on the other hand seem to want to ignore other peoples comments. Since you seem to be (almost) alone on your take about clouds.
Now let me try to explain my stance on clouds (outside of the guidelines for article talk pages).
Water vapor is only one aspect of cloud creation. Aerosols are another necessary requirement, since droplets cannot form without something to "seed" them - as well as short term changes in temperature (and pressure). There is no reason to think that because there is more water vapor in the atmosphere - that you'd then get more clouds. Its the relative humidity which is a factor - not the absolute humidity. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 20:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Your participation on the expelled article is unhelpful and counterproductive. You have received several warnings, but these have apparently not dissuaded you. Consider this your final warning. If you continue to disrupt the article, I'm going to block you. Raul654 ( talk) 23:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm standing with NCdave here. He has some things to learn about involvement in discussions, but he keeps the discussion on getting the article balanced. Is the artical POV... HECK YA!!!! Hopefully he'll learn to be a little less confrontational (something I am prone to being as well) but we don't have a reason to block him. If he ever is blocked it needs to be by an admin not related to the article. Raul, I respect you as an admin but don't think you should be involved in blocking him. Saksjn ( talk) 13:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Please let me know wherever you are editing for two reasons. 1. I'm often on your side. 2. I want to help keep you out of trouble. If you get in any major disputes try to cool off and let me and some of my friends argue for you. Looking forward to hearing from you soon. Saksjn ( talk) 00:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This user believes in Intelligent Design |
Saksjn ( talk) 01:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The Expelled article is already too big and Sternberg already has his own page (two, actually), where it's well-referenced. We don't need a discussion of the controversy on the film's page as well. KarlM ( talk) 16:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I think Karl was referring to these two pages: Richard Sternberg and Sternberg peer review controversy. I'm not quite sure why he posted this on your page though. JBFrenchhorn ( talk) 05:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Since you have choosen to continue your disruptive editing on the Expelled article despite my final warning above, I have blocked you for one week. Raul654 ( talk) 20:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, when I did give you that warning, you tried to claim I was involved in a dispute with you by collecting every edit I had ever made there - none of which involved you - and then claiming I was in a dispute.
I informed you then that you were incorrect. As to what specifically you did wrong, there
was a long talk page thread on just that topic. And I know you were aware of it because you participated in it.
Raul654 (
talk) 07:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
NCdave ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
The admin who blocked me was in conflict with me at
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, and so should have recused himself as an admin. Also, despite my repeated requests, he will not identify any of my "disruptive" edits.
Raul654 is actively involved with editing the article and talk page, and he sided against me repeatedly. For example:
Raul654 is not a neutral admin, so I asked him to recuse himself. Instead, he blocked me for a week.
I also asked him, several times, to identify the edits that he objected to. But,
like FeloneousMonk, he has ignored all such requests.
I asked him:
The only objectionable edits on my part which Raul654 has identified were "repeated insistence on tagging the article with a POV tag." In deference to Raul654's complaint, I've not added the POV tag again, though several other editors agree with me that the article certainly needs one.
I try hard to edit with a spirit of compromise and consensus-building. That doesn't mean I never err, but if you review my edits and talk page comments I think you will see that I've obviously been trying to work politely with all editors, not just those whose POV I share.
It doesn't always work. For example,
I was accused of "insincerity" for being too friendly, and of
"playing the WP:CIVIL game" for being too polite.
But sometimes the patience pays off. For instance, on the Greenhouse gas article's talk page you can see how I managed, after a LONG, patient negotiation, to reach a compromise with editors with whom I disagree, to fix significant inaccuracies in the article. [67] The discussion culminated with this comment:
So I've been blocked for a week for an offense that has not been identified, by an admin who was editing in conflict with me on the article.
Here are some additional relevant links:
Please unblock me. NCdave ( talk) 08:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Decline reason:
I did a lot of digging into this situation and here's what I have concluded. First, Raul654 has edited the article but that doesn't mean that he's in a dispute with you: he's just one of many editors that supports the mainstream version. Even if he was, though, it wouldn't mean that his block should be overturned -- the question is whether your behavior merits the block or not.
Second, your contributions to the article talk page have been mostly irrelevant, inflammatory, and unhelpful. Most of your discussion comments are not actually about the article at all, but are rather about The Truth about Intelligent Design, the motivations of those who push for it and against it, the US Constitution, the Kitzmiller case, et cetera. Although you haven't readded the POV tag since Raul warned you not to, you have continued to push and push to try to get others to believe the way you do about the topic.
This is fundamentally not compatible with Wikipedia editing. The purpose of the talk page is to discuss the article: you claim it is POV but hardly ever talk about the specifics of any text within the article, except as a launching-off point for arguments you want to make about intelligent design. You've been violating WP:SOAPBOX at the article talk page. It has become disruptive because of its sheer volume and because it is irrelevant, distracting, and tends to escalate the already difficult situation at the article; I notice you even de-archived comments of this sort when others had archived inappropriate threads in order to try to bring focus back to the article. Another problem with your comments is your apparent high level of emotional involvement, which leads you to violate WP:AGF and make pointed if not overtly incivil comments.
Not all of your comments are like this. I did see a few where you had brought in new source material, or spent a little time directly discussing article text. However, even in those cases it is clear you were trying to push your point of view. Neutrality is not achieved via stalemate between two sides at war, but rather by finding common ground and setting personal opinion aside. Certainly not all your comments towards others are incivil. But I really don't think you've done the article any good at all, and you've made things difficult for a lot of other editors for a long time, so this block is justified.
Now, Raul was not very specific about this in his warning to you. But many other users have commented about exactly these kinds of issues to you before and you've simply ignored them and continued. While your Terri Schiavo RFC is old news, it shows the exact same type of problem. And while you didn't readd the POV tag you have persisted in exactly the same types of comments since the warning. So people have certainly pointed out this problem to you repeatedly, but you persist in this. Mango juice talk 20:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
I'm supporting you. JBFrenchhorn and I are fighting for you at the talk page and at the notice board. Good luck, and know that we agree with you that Raul took this too far. Saksjn ( talk) 13:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that any Admin contemplating an unblock read NCDave's blocklog & Neutrality's reason for blocking him nearly three years ago: "Consistent POV pushing, long talk page rants, and reverts.." It would seem that very little has changed in the intervening years. Hrafn Talk Stalk 13:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Irrespective of this user's previous disruption, I think it's fair to ask the blocking admin what specific edits he objects to. I can't immediately find any disruption in this user's recent edits. As to the recusal issue, the burden of proof is on the blocked user to clearly establish – with succinctly presented diffs – that he is in a current content dispute with the blocking admin. The assertions in the unblock request do not meet that standard. Sandstein ( talk) 18:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Hafrn, many of your "tin foil hat" and "Paronioa" comments have been rather attacking. Don't try to come up with an excuse. As the Bible advises, "Don't worry about the speck in your brother's eye, when you have a log in your own." Now, you may not have a log in your eye, but its still good advice. Saksjn ( talk) 20:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() |
The Original Barnstar | |
For your efforts to bring a netural point of view to articles, especially the Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed article, I award you this barnstar. While blocked, just remember, you've been expelled because you're intelligent. Meanwhile, if you're bored, take a look at The Age of the Machine. You've been expelled from Wikipedia because there is clique that controls these articles. There is a consensus version because those who do not support the consensus are blocked. Good luck. Fight the Clique ( talk) 02:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)}} |
Good grief, there's an edit war been going on here on my own talk page, and I didn't even notice it!
Fight_the_Clique, thank you for the Barnstar, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with your use the word "mafia." Would you mind if I edit that out? I'm not sure what the etiquette is w/r/t such things.
Hmmm... I see that you are blocked and -- Yikes! -- you are blocked for being a sockpuppet of me! Hey, Krimpet, Metros, Mangojuice, et al, I have no idea who Fight the Clique is, but he certainly is not me! Will someone please do a checkuser and verify that? NCdave ( talk) 22:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
If it has been resolved that User:Fighttheclique is not a sock puppet of NCdave than why are there people still acting like it! This is not block request abuse! I have never seen this many people support the innocence of a single editor in my whole wikipedia life! If this many people continue to support him I'm pretty sure its safe to say he has a right to keep fighting. Even if he can't fight we'll keep fighting for him! Saksjn ( talk) 13:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process [86] by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable.-- Filll ( talk) 14:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() |
You have been accused of
sockpuppetry. Please refer to
Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/193.34.144.63 for evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with
notes for the suspect before editing the evidence page.
Aunt Entropy (
talk) 07:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am not 193.34.144.63. I assume that 193.34.144.63 is User:Fight_the_Clique, but I don't know who that is.
- I have not restored my own barnstar. Your statement that I admitted doing so is mistaken. I think that your mistake probably results from a misinterpretation of 193.34.144.63's edit summary, which was apparently in answer to a question I had asked.
- When Fight_the_Clique awarded me the barnstar, he used what I thought was unnecessarily harsh language. I particularly cringed when I read the word "mafia," so I asked him:
- Fight_the_Clique, thank you for the Barnstar, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with your use the word "mafia." Would you mind if I edit that out? I'm not sure what the etiquette is w/r/t such things.
- and then:
- Fight_the_Clique, since you are blocked, you can't reply here to my request for consent to edit out your "mafia" remark, but you can email me to give me permission. Just click on "E-mail this user" while viewing my user page or user talk page. Or if the Wikipedia email system won't let you do that, there's an email address on my user page (but the "E-mail this user" link goes to a better address). Thanks.
- It was my intent to edit the barnstar language after receiving his emailed permission. But Fight_the_Clique didn't email me. Instead, 193.34.144.63 (who is presumably Fight_the_Clique) edited the Barnstar directly, and changed "mafia" to "clique," and in his edit summary he wrote, "No permission is needed to edit your own talk page." That was clearly a reply to my question, which had asked Fight_the_Clique for his consent to tone down the language in the barnstar award. It was not an admission that I was the one doing the editing.
- I can understand how that confused you, Aunt Entropy. But will you please withdraw your accusation of sockpuppetry, or else promptly request a checkuser, so that I can get this blot removed from my talk page?
NCdave has much too long of an edit history to be a sock puppet. A sock puppet wouldn't have been around this long, or have fought this long. Saksjn ( talk) 13:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I see Mackan79 removed the template before I could. I agree I placed it in error, I apologise for that. I am adding a note to the Suspected Sock page, but I don't know how to withdraw it. If anyonw can help, let me know.
However, you may claim you do not know Fight the Clique, but it seems he knows you.
And Saksjn, your assertion isn't logical. There is no reason an established user cannot form a sock. -- Aunt Entropy ( talk) 17:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
My fault. I read the tag as asserting that NCdave was a sock puppet, not a puppeteer. My bad. Saksjn ( talk) 19:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and unblocked you ... I was under the impression that since another admin cut the block down that the issue was completed. Looks like I was wrong. Blueboy 96 20:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop. If you continue to use talk pages such as
Talk:Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed for inappropriate discussion, as described
here, you may be blocked.
Hrafn
Talk
Stalk 17:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that comment was soapboxing. Who else was warned? Saksjn ( talk) 15:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Can you chime in with your thoughts here? Thanks. Nightscream ( talk) 03:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I noticed that you have participated at Intelligent desgin. What is going on? I just watched an excellent documentary tonight, just got back, and I wanted to insert some information that was presented in this film. But low and behold, the article is locked down. It's like the Berlin Wall. The documentary must be true. Please unlock this article and allow academic freedom. Yhvh777 ( talk) 03:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Read WP:SPADE & WP:TALK#Others' comments: "Deleting material not relevant to improving the article", and stop engaging in spurious WP:HARASSment on my talkpage
Hrafn, please refrain from insulting other editors, as in this edit, in which you called another editor's critique of the Expelled article's POV bias a "WP:SOAPbox rant," and this one in which you called fellow editors "paranoid" and suggested that they wear "tinfoil hats," and this one in which you accusing a fellow editor of exhibiting signs of "anti-intellectualism," and this sarcastic remark suggesting they are foolish and their opinions are "unsubstantiated, illogical hyperbole," and this demand that a fellow editor "learn to read," and this one in which you told an editor to "please stop asking inane questions."
Such remarks are prohibited by WP:Civility, which is an official Wikipedia policy. In addition, WP:Etiquette says:
- Don't label or personally attack people or their edits.
- Terms like "racist", "sexist" or even "poorly written" make people defensive. This makes it hard to discuss articles productively. If you have to criticize, you must do it in a polite and constructive manner. - Wikipedia:Etiquette#How_to_avoid_abuse_of_talk_pages
Also, please do not delete [90] [91] or hide [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] other people's comments on the article Talk page. How can we hope to achieve consensus if you will not allow other editors to discuss the article and its problems? Also, you might be unaware of the fact that striking through other editor's comments, as you did here, is explicitly frowned upon on Wikipedia:
- "Do not strike out the comments of other editors without their permission." - Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_comments
- "Though editing articles is acceptable (and, in fact, encouraged), editing the signed words of another editor on a talk page or other discussion page is generally not acceptable" - Wikipedia:Etiquette#A_few_things_to_bear_in_mind
So please don't do that anymore, either.
Thanks for listening. NCdave ( talk) 03:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC) & 03:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- NCdave, you are one of the most disruptive editors on Wikipedia with a long block log. What you are referring to above is standard practice for managing controversial articles on Wikipedia, achieved through consensus. If you do not like it, you are welcome to edit Conservapedia. Good day sir.-- Filll ( talk) 03:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The preceding unsigned section was moved here by user Hrafn from his own Talk page at 04:58 on 19 April 2008, and hidden by misused {{hat}}/{{hab}} templates (which I have removed) -- NCdave
Thanks for your comments. Yes, the First Amendment was the odd-one-out in the Bill of Rights, the only clause aimed solely at restricting Federal legislators. Federal nations aren't easy to govern... David Trochos ( talk) 12:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Looks like Raul picked his next victim: me. I wouldn't mind a little help if he actually blocks me. By the way, where ya been? Saksjn ( talk) 19:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed your comment from Strider12's user page. It is not your user page, so it is not the place to express your opinion. KnightLago ( talk) 02:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, NCdave,
I'm wondering if we can come to some agreement here on your talk page about the quoting of Darwin out of context, because it is my opinion, and you're welcome to prove me wrong, that you are misreading Darwin's writings, and this has some impact on how you interpret the secondary source as well.
In particular, I believe the sentence if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil hinges on the contrast between the words "contingent" and "present"; where the word present doesn't mean that there is some other evil present to overwhelm the benefits of eugenics. He seems to be saying that if we neglect the weak it would be for some potential theoretical ephemeral benefit which is grossly outweighed by a real and actual evil: the immorality of us neglecting the weak.
What do you think? Merzul ( talk) 20:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Your latest edit to Jesse Helms here removed two quotes that you claim were not sourced. The first quote was well and properly sourced, which you would have realized had you actually bothered to look up the News & Observer article that was cited. I was unable to find the Feb 8 1981 NYT article because I don't have access to the databases but I did find other sources here and here confirming it. I understand your wish to keep Wikipedia accurate, but you seem eager to remove 'inaccurate' material that casts a negative light on Helms, at the expense of actually verifying that it is inaccurate. I don't disagree with your assertion that the "doctored photo" assertion should not be included unless we can find something better than the FAIR source, but you also removed the quote Smith won after a campaign featuring a newspaper ad that said, "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters in your mills and factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." which was sourced and can be found here. Please actually check sources before claiming that they don't support the article. -- TexasDex ★ 16:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello, NCdave. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#NCdave deleting uncomfortable material about Jesse Helms. Thank you. Banjeboi 16:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
"I am a stickler for truth and accuracy." Liar! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinthe ( talk • contribs) 00:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I feel justified after coming back reading NCDave's user talk and to see that finally administrators, and others on this board are becoming aware of your additions of half-truths and ommisions of actual facts. Especially in regards to the page of Sen. Jesse Helms. I want to personally thank each person who has held NCDave accountable for his bending and twisting of certain truths, ommiting pertinent information that should NOT be deleted, and at times... flat out lying to appease his warped point of view. My user name on this board is GRANDEXTRAV and if you read further up on his user talk page, I was one of the first to call NCDave out on his particular behavior on this board and toward the subject of TRUTH. NCDave...wake up man People are starting to see you for what you are... a Liar...-- GRANDEXTRAV ( talk) 17:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
That was not an attack...nor gloating.... NCDave deserves to be held accountable and any one else for that matter who tells half-truths and lies... and as for you, I can careless what you think it is the TRUTH... so deal with it-- GRANDEXTRAV ( talk) 23:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, I'm back... and here's a nice reminder of why I left. Lovely. :-( NCdave ( talk) 13:28, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I have emailed you to ask whether you would agree to participate in a short survey on how to cover scientific uncertainties/controversies in articles pertaining to global warming and climate change (survey described here). If interested, please email me Encyclopaedia21 ( talk) 19:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. You are being notified as you have made a number of edits to this page. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Terri Schiavo case/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells ( talk) 21:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
See Talk:Lyndon LaRouche#Rejection by the DNC for a thread about your edits to that article. Will Beback talk 23:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I guess you should visit talk page of this infobox and:
Hello, NCdave!
It was really helpful of you to you to upload File:MSL Serie EN Global IB RWT NoGIA Adjust.gif. However, we need to properly format the image license information in order to keep and use new images.
If you can edit the description and add one of these templates, that would be great. If you're not sure how or would like some help, please ask us at the media copyright questions page and we'll be happy to assist you.
Thanks again! -- ImageTaggingBot ( talk) 10:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading File:MSL Serie J1 Global IB RWT NoGIA Adjust.gif. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.
To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. -- ImageTaggingBot ( talk) 11:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article KEVA Planks is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Longbyte1 ( talk) 22:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
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A tag has been placed on TruthOrFiction.com requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Eeekster ( talk) 22:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello,
I reversed a revert on Watts Up With That, but I wanted to let you know because it is an article under restrictions. I think your revert was perhaps done without considering where the link went (to an article on environmental skepticism). The previous version had a pipe with "skepticism" as the marker: a designation that may be confusing because skepticism as a movement does not tend to adopt the Watts Up With That opinion on climate change, though in the past it did ( Michael Shermer being a prime example of a skeptic who switched sides). I think the link to environmental skepticism is a good one and describes the people who use that website well. I may be wrong, they may take offense and as you are a supporter of them, I gather, I would like to get your opinion. I don't want to confuse the readers of Wikipedia into mistaking a "skepticism" without qualifying adjectives for the kind of opinions that global warming sceptics have. Perhaps we can continue the conversation civilly at Talk:Watts Up With That? Nodnien ( talk) 13:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
To get more people to help, I started a conversation at NPOVN==Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion== Hello, NCdave. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Nodnien ( talk) 13:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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I have raised the business on the Heartland Institute talk page at WP:ANI#Could somebody block a conspiracy theorist for a while to show what they're doing is not welcome here. Dmcq ( talk) 15:20, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
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Formality only, as you have not been notified in the past 6 months. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹 🌉 10:58, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Please do not add commentary, your own point of view, or your own
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Patriot Prayer. Doing so violates Wikipedia's
neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. Thank you.
Tsumikiria⧸
🌹
🌉 18:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
If you disrupt SPI again, you risk being blocked. And don't attack SPI clerks.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 15:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi NCdave, I have reverted your addition to Warren Smith because red-linked articles on DAB pages should be accompanied by a link to an existing article ( MOS:DABRED); external links are not used ( MOS:DABEXT). Leschnei ( talk) 01:25, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Thank you NCdave for your report in the talk page on he death of John Brignell. Can I ask if you have any links to reports on that so we can close up that bio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:B500:4A0:0:0:0:D054 ( talk) 06:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an
edit war according to the reverts you have made on
Grammarly; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to
collaborate with others, to avoid editing
disruptively, and to
try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Points to note:
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:07, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
Please refrain from doing promotional edits, as you did on grammarly. If you have any questions please leave a talkback on my talk page. 96.230.240.122 ( talk) 01:19, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
I have been editing in Good Faith, I think pricing is not promotional, but pricing does come under Wikipedia's promotional category. and after I saw your edit history, and your discussion with Ronz, I think it would be wise to not add the pricing section back on, because Ronz, or someone else (not that I would) could open up an ANI thread requesting a block for you 96.230.240.122 ( talk) 21:41, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
The article Nagare (web framework) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
Does not meet WP:GNG. All sources are directly from the project page, I could not find enough reliable third-party sources.
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I proposed deletion of Nagare (web framework), which you authored. If possible, I'd like to help you bring article up to Wikipedia standards. Please don't take article deletion proposal personal. Please consider the following:
Anton.bersh ( talk) 11:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Hello, NCdave. We
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You have broken the 3 revert rule. Any further breaches will result in a block. If you find yourself in a simular situation in future the wikipedia disspute resolution process may prove useful. Geni 05:52, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Dave,
I am writing you this message in order to try to find some common ground on the Terri Schiavo affair. I respect that you have your point of view, and I respect and commend you for being so dedicated and committed to what you believe to be right. At the same time, I would like to apologise for perhaps saying a few harsh things which I might not have said had I had time to think about them properly first.
However, your recent changes to the article perplex me, and make me question whether you are indeed interested in writing a quality encyclopaedia, as you claim, or whether you just want to put forward a particular point of view. My complaints can be boiled down to:
That's all for now. I hope that we can get along and ensure that the Terri Schiavo article is a quality article without any significant POV.
Lankiveil 07:47, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC).
Sorry about the style issues -- I have no sense of style. The "grammatical abuse" is in your imagination, though.
When "community consensus with regards to bias" is that the article should be a Felos propaganda piece, riddled with false statements and blatant bias, then you are correct, I refuse to accept it.
When I see something that is poorly written or ambiguous, I try to help out by fixing it. My Wikequette edit was just that, as you can see: a clarification of ambiguity, in conformance with the obviously intended original meaning. You're welcome. NCdave 20:53, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi Dave, I noticed that you've been making some edits to articles (such as Wikipedia:Wikiquette) to support your arguments on the Terri Schiavo talk page... It's always great to see more people getting involed in the wikipedia process, but it isn't approiate to go making edits just to support your position in an a debate, or at least it's not a great idea to go redefining chunks of wikipedia when you're a fairly new user involved in a hotly contested issue. ... It just doesn't give people the right impression of your intentions. I've reverted the changes that I thought were troublesome. Gmaxwell 09:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
BTW, here's an up to date link to NCdave's Wikiquette edits. NCdave 20:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Cvaneg, for reverting 66.52.193.147's "call dave at work, here's the number" addition to my user profile. That explains why I got a harrassing anonymous phone call at work today (well, yesterday, now). (I also got a similar email.) This is the work of one of the partisans for Michael Schiavo, who don't like what I have to say on the Talk:Terri_Schiavo page. Sweet folks, eh? Unfortunately, he also put it in the history comments, which is unremovable. NCdave 09:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone vandalized your user page and I rolled it back for you. Mike H 05:28, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
I already heard most of your comments from legitimate news sources, thanks for the input. Your comments, mostly insinuation and hypotheticals, were much too wordy so I really didn't read it word for word. Regardless of what type of bastard Michael Schiavo was, he was Terry's bastard, to her great fortune. I pray to God that my husband takes care of me in the same fashion as Terry, has the courage that maybe my parents wouldn't, if I am ever in her situation. Game over baby.... If I were a vegetable, I would be glad my husband would get on with his life and have many kids with any woman he wanted in my stead. If my life was over, his shouldn't be. Revmachine21 13:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that on the talk page of Terri Schiavo you seem to think that the fact that Schiavo was given painkillers is proof that Terri really wasn't in a persistent vegetative state. I think you are missing something very important here.
Let me restate your argument:
But statement four needs another qualifier: "If the hospice is perfectly rational, then the hospice is lying." And that qualifier is obviously not true. Doctors and nurses are people, not robots. Most people (including myself) can't help but feel empathy for other humans. That means that people will instinctively perceive another human in a situation that would be uncomfortable to themself as "uncomfortable", "in pain", "suffering".
One thing to note is that many of the visible responses to pain are reflexive. So someone can react to pain without being aware of it. (Even amoebas are capable of reacting to stimuli, and only panpsychists would claim that microscopic organisms are conscious.)
As you said, Terri was given drugs to "quiet her". But that does not mean that she was conscious, or that the hospice thought she was conscious. It merely means that, despite their knowledge, the staff of the hospice could not (nor would they want to) throw off their empathy. So they made an effort to "make Terri comfortable", even though they knew it was more for the benefit of themselves (and anybody else in the room) than Terri.
Why do we "make comfortable" comatose patients? Why do we try to not be cruel to animals that we don't view as self-aware? Why do we lay the dead on cushions? We do so because we are human, not because we assume consciousness.
Now, some people might bring up the hard problem of consciousness in response to these actions. (How do we know if Terri is conscious or not? We medicate her on the off-chance that she is suffering even though we know that is impossible.) But I think that is merely because people have an easier time admitting the fallibility of their knowledge than the irrationality of their emotions.
Not that I'm saying that irrationality is bad. Perfect rationality leads to a world that is devoid of meaning (although excessive irrationality does the same thing). I certainly felt empathy for Terri Schiavo, even though I knew Schiavo felt nothing.
I hope we can discuss this in a calm and reasonable manner. -- L33tminion | (talk) 22:55, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)
For most of 15 years Terri Schiavo had a standing order for analgesics to relieve menstrual pain. There's no way that her caregivers believed that she did not experience pain. She behaved as if she experienced pain, which is all, existentially speaking, we know for certain about anyone else's experience of pain. When someone behaves as if they are experiencing pain, the only rational conclusion is that they are experiencing pain, even though you can't prove it in an absolute sense.
Also, take at look at the [http://www.infowars.com/articles/life/schiavo_terris_exit_protocol.htm Exit Protocol] that her hospice doctor wrote up for her in 2001. Take special note of the instructions to use analgesics for symptoms of pain and discomfort: "Monitor symptoms of pain/discomfort. If noted, medicate with Naproxen rectal suppository 375 mg. Q8 prn." If you tell me that you don't think that means that he thought she could experience pain, I won't believe you. NCdave 04:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That's standard procedure even for the comatose. Such procedures are not for the comfort of the unconscious, but for the comfort of those around them. One of the things it does is make the patient seem more comfortable. Even the unconscious can seem to be in pain. "Making them comfortable" makes them seem more comfortable, which comforts the families and loved ones of the patients (as well as the other patients and hospital staff).
It is intuitive to believe that someone who seems to be in pain is suffering. But sometimes intuition can run counter to fact. If, for example, that person is missing most of their brain.
If you want to make some sort of panpsychic argument that the removal of the area of the brain responsible for consciousness might not have removed consciousness, then why would dying remove Terri's consciousness? (Certainly that's the religious belief...)
Why don't you call up a local hospice or hospital and ask them if is standard procedure to medicate terminal patients who are known to be comatose or in a persistent vegetative state? -- L33tminion | (talk) 05:27, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)
L33minion, somebody has been lying to you. A patient who is unconscious does not react to pain stimulus, and so there are no "symptoms of pain/discomfort," and therefore no analgesics can be given in response to such symptoms. Nor are analgesics customarily given to comatose patients, simply because they cannot feel pain or react to pain. For example, see
[1] which is a reference to a study of the use of analgesics and sedatives in terminal patients from whom life support has been withdrawn. The abstract notes that, "Patients who did not receive medication were comatose and considered incapable of benefiting from sedation and analgesia." In fact, sedation to unconsciousness is commonly used instead of analgesics, to give peace to patients who cannot be made comfortable with analgesics.
Also, the claim that Terri was missing most of her brain is untrue. Two of the neurologists that George Felos selected testified that that was the case, based on examination of her CT scans, but the two Felos-selected neurologists contradicted each other. One said that most of her brain had been replaced by "spinal fluid." The other said that most of her brain was "scar tissue." Obviously, at least one of them was talking nonsense: scar tissue and spinal fluid do not look remotely similar on a CT scan. [2]
In fact, neurologists aren't qualified to interpret CT scans, anyhow. That's a job for radiologists. The two radiologists three radiologists that I know of who looked at Terri's CT scans both all concluded that her brain was significantly atrophied, but not nearly as bad as Felos's handpicked neurologists claimed, and doubted that she was in a PVS. Radiologist Thomas Boyle, M.D. (host of the award-winning CodeBlueBlog web site), who has interpreted over 10,000 brain CT scans, wrote, "I have seen many walking, talking, fairly coherent people with worse cerebral/cortical atrophy. Therefore, this is in no way prima facie evidence that Terri Schiavo's mental abilities or/or capabilities are completely eradicated. I cannot believe such testimony has been given on the basis of this scan."
NCdave 21:40, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The guy who first nominated you hasn't bothered to inform you (not really good etiquette), but you have been put up for RFC. The page is here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NCdave. Proto 11:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed you flagged these edits: [3] [4] and as minor. In reality, only the 2nd one was minor, as it was tweaking a typo from the first edit. I personally have no opinion on the article and this is not about whether or not the article deserves those tags, and as you can see I have never editted it. Please see Wikipedia:Minor edits for further clarification. Cheers. Burgundavia 09:40, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
I'm willing to make a compromise with you because I don't particularly feel like running you off wikipedia, which some others feel this rfc may do. And, despite what you might think, I don't particularly want you as an enemy either. If you come back to the Terri Schiavo page, and if you make a collaborative effort with the other editors, I will withdraw my support for rfc. -Professor Ninja
The amount of evidence against you is lengthy enormous, ... -Ninja
...and I suspect that that's only because in two months you've never had a disciplinary action taken against you; they're a slap in the face and they can serve to smarten anybody up. Consider this a peer disciplinary action. You have undoubtedly made excellent contributions in the past. However, that doesn't excuse your other behaviour, and you need to understand this. You've made everybody jumpy with your edits to the talk page and articles. Work with people to achieve consent; that's all anybody's ever asked. -Ninja
People call you out because of your history. Take it, and prove them wrong. I'm frankly tired of wading through the diffs to see what you've done, and I'd rather just achieve a compromise with you. -Ninja
Try to remember a few things:
1. People aren't here to kill Terri or support her death. We're here to make a relevant article concerning her life.
2. Recognize your own bias; you undoubtedly have your beliefs and that's fine. But beliefs and facts don't always mix, neither do speculation and facts. The speculation might be true, but it has to pass an evidence test. If you feel a conflict of interest coming on, ask another editor to look at the section and see what needs to be done.
3. Two wrongs don't make a right, or two POVs don't make an NPOV. When it comes to speculation and criticism, give everybody a fair share. When it comes to hard facts, deal only with the facts. Don't couch your own criticism in weasel words. If you feel there's valid criticism, cite it concisely and include it. -Ninja
4. Apologize. People take being slighted amazingly well when a person admits they overstepped their bounds. They'll usually agree they helped escalate it. Only the most asinine of people really believe somebody's beyond redemption.
5. Relax, don't jump around the talk page so much. State something cogently and move on. Acknowledge rebuttals. Offer up pieces of evidence or documents as such, not as absolutes that must be obeyed. Acknowledge conflict of interest even if it comes from a POV you agree with. It comes from all sides.
6. Don't misquote people or misattribute statements they've made. Be charitable; if somebody says something that can mean two things, take it the polite way instead of the condescending way.
7. Don't rag on people for things like "Pearson" when they clearly mean "Pearse". It's a simple little typo that anybody can make, and it makes you come off really condescending. -Ninja
8. You don't have to repeat the same things over and over, it makes people not listen to you. Keep sections on topic, tangents really annoy people. Having a conversation about one thing when somebody jumps in the middle of it spouting off is annoying as hell.
9. Don't go at things with such bombast, because it gets everybody in the mood. A guy walks into a gun store full of customers with a .45 drawn demanding cash, and pretty soon the whole place is riddle with bullet holes and blood. Make your points with gentle persuasion, not outbursts. -Ninja
10. Take a deep breath, walk away. It's hard as hell, especially when you have a point to make. Fire up a random page and do a style or copy edit. Come back. Think about editing the article. Edit the article for style instead of POV. Let somebody else handle it.
etc...
I've never gotten anybody banned in my life, or deleted, suspended, or disciplined. Ever, because I don't believe in it, and I don't feel like starting now. You're already teetering dangerously close with your edit history, and most of that is from me, and I'd feel very responsible if a more drastic action was taken against you. Prove your worth in collaborations, not by turning wikipedia into a pulpit. Professor Ninja 18:57, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
I blocked you for three days. I don't relish it and I regret that I was forced to do it, but it was necessary. Dave, look at your contribs. Every single one has been to Terri Schiavo or to its talk page, or to the RfC on you. Your edits are very clearly POV, and have come into unanimous opposition on talk. Reverting, talk page rants, and disruption—even in the face of dozens of users telling you otherwise—is unacceptable at Wikipedia. Take three days off and come back. With warmest regards -- Neutrality talk 20:32, May 12, 2005 (UTC)
Dude, when you don't have many friends on here, be nice to the ones you have. I wouldn't talk back to an admin that was trying to politely carry out policy. Ya there are POV problems, but a war isn't always won with harsh words. Saksjn ( talk) 00:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
See e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Terri_Schiavo&diff=13643269&oldid=13642978
where we say:
[11] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Terri_Schiavo&diff=13629402&oldid=13629325)
NCdave's version is described as the 'less POV version'. now THAT is whacky. FuelWagon 03:20, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
The vandal has been reported here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Current_alerts) FuelWagon 04:01, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
You did not document your claim on that page as well as you did here; I clarified and affirmed some of your claim and overturned other of it here: [12] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress#Current_alerts) --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 04:44, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Vandalism_in_progress&diff=0&oldid=13644183
where we say:
209.170.130.127 209.170.130.127 (talk · contributions) vandalizing the Terri Schiavo page multiple times. FuelWagon 03:30, 13 May 2005 (UTC) Fuel Wagon did not list the diff to back up his accusation; here is it: [1] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Terri_Schiavo&diff=13629402&oldid=13629325) --comments: While I believe it was NC Dave who did the "vandalism," as shown in this diff [2] ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Terri_Schiavo&diff=13641661&oldid=13641611) by the author of the above, this may amount to less than vandalism. Closer analysis of (apparently) NCdave's edit shows that he got a little talkative -and may have inserted either repetitive or slightly biased comments. (Mention of MCS initially may not be necessary, hence it may be repetitive; also, the breaking of the marriage vows by Mike Schiavo may not have relevance and be slightly distractive or biased.) However, since both sides of the court-appointed doctors were mentioned (those for and against the PVS diagnosis), it would not be fair to only list some "Pro-PVS" doctors that were not court-appointed. In this sense, it would only be fair that some Anti-PVS doctors who were not court-appointed be mentioned to balance those that Mike Schiavo is said to have hired. In that sense, Dave's edit is more stylistic and less vandalism. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 04:40, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Sincerely, -- GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 05:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in the Mediation regarding the Terry Schiavo article. Initial discussion is beginning at Talk:Terri Schiavo/Mediation. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 20:28, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Please stop deleting content from Talk:Terri Schiavo. -- Viriditas | Talk 05:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I feel that I should invite you to respond to this:
Vote - I am tiring of mediation, and hope we fix the problem soon: This may work'
Ok so there's non signing red users requiring eternal arguments - but even if it went by another name - the article does look poorer for the fact that the earlier stages of its life (under whatever name) is lacking ... SatuSuro 01:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Theblog 02:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I wrote some comments on the HPV vaccine talk page. Gynecology isn't really my thing-- so, I didn't really have that much to say. Any case, I hope the comments were of some use. Feel free to leave me other messages/questions on my talk-- and/or post to the doctor's mess. Nephron T| C 05:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
NCdave ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
I have not violated 3RR! I have been repeatedly reverted by other editors (esp. MastCell, JQ, and Yilloslime) on the Steven Milloy article, but have only done two reverts myself in the last week or more. Please unblock me. NCdave 09:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Referring to the 3RR Noticeboard...
My one and only 3RR violation was over two years ago, when I was new to Wikipedia and did not know the rules. OTOH, MastCell (the complainer in this case) was guilty of a 3RR violation on this same article just a few weeks ago -- June 18, to be precise -- and went unpunished.
The claim that I was warned is incorrect, too. JQ posted on the Talk page, "Note that a further reversion by you will violate WP:3RR." But that was incorrect, so I replied, "Actually, I've only done two reverts," a fact which was not contested. In fact, I've only done two reverts in the past week, anywhere on Wikipedia, and both of those were actually un-reverts. Moreover, I did no other reverts after that. I am not a revert warrior! There are very few occasions on Wikipedia when I have reverted someone else's work, and not without thorough discussion on the Talk page. The two reverts that I did yesterday were both un-reverts, accompanied by Talk page comments, in response to total, massive reverts of work in which I had invested a lot of time.
A majority of the corrections that I tried to make had been very thoroughly discussed on the Talk page. In the case of the DDT section, we'd gone through a very lengthy discussion, and I'd incorporated changes in the proposed section to address every issue raised, and weeks had without disagreement. I noted on the Talk page that it appeared we had finally achieved consensus on it, and then I put it in the article. Six minutes later MastCell reverted it, with no Talk page discussion at all.
Reflexive deleting of material he doesn't agree with is a pattern of behavior for MastCell. Not only did he commit a 3RR violation on June 18, 2007, just two days later, on June 20, he archived numerous "long-inactive threads" (his words) from the Steven Milloy talk page, quite a few of which had had activity as recently as 16 June or later. Typing "Ctrl-F" on the archive page and searching for "June 2007" finds eight comments. Some of them were less than 48 hours old. In each case, the most recent comments were comments that I had made.
The claim that "there is consensus against his [my] proposed edits" is false, as well. I am certainly not the only one to have noticed how awful this article is, and to have tried to fix it. Peroxisome, "Uncle Ed" Poor, Theblog, 66.75.3.244, 88.105.242.190, 202.61.229.85, 147.114.226.172, and others have all remarked that this article is either biased or inaccurate or both. Sections on the Talk page (which I did not create) were entitled things like, "Article is biased against Milloy"
[29], "This article is awful"
[30], and "NPOV"
[31], etc..
What's more, MastCell's fellow revert-warrior, Yilloslime, just DID commit a 3RR violation, today. Each of his four edits were exact reverts, not questionable cases, and that's all he did, just revert:
Thanks to MastCell, Yilloslime, JQ, and a few others, the Steven Milloy article is an extreme example of violation of
WP:BLP, and Wikipedia policy demands that it not be left in that condition. Here's a quote from an editorial critical of Milloy which is reproduced in the Steven Milloy article. I copy it here to show you how blatant the
WP:BLP violations are in this biography:
Now that is obviously not an accurate, NPOV summary of Milloy's views. It is a vicious caricature, a
straw man, and possibly defamatory. It has no place in a Wikipedia biography. Milloy is a respected journalist for FoxNews.com, with advanced degrees in biostatistics and law, who has made a career out of puncturing faulty scientific reports. He does not deserve to have this sort of falsehood told about him in Wikipedia. Nobody does.
JQ (who chimed in on my false 3RR charge) defended that vicious caricature, by pointing out that it was an accurate quote of someone else. That's the main source of all that criticism in the article: quotes and paraphrases from unsupported statements by Milloy's most virulent critics. Here's another example:
Here's another example:
I can give you many, many other examples of
WP:BLP violations and inaccuracies in the Steven Milloy article, but I think you get the idea.
There was, at one time, a "praise" section and a "criticism" section, though there was also a lot of criticism outside the criticism section. The praise section (before it was banished to a footnote in the "books" section) was less than 1/15 the length of the criticism section. I'm not kidding. (I copy-pasted them each and used a character-counter.) Yet, even so, another editor asked, pointedly, "Why is there a criticism section here? The whole article is critical."
[41] Which is true.
I've tried my best to help clean up this mess, and I've been very careful not to violate any WP rules (at least, any that I am aware of), but for my trouble all I got was instant reverts, a false 3RR charge, and a 1 week ban. Tanj.
Please unblock me.
NCdave 12:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Decline reason:
You have consistently been caught revert warring and POV pushing. You should use this time to read up on WP:EW and WP:3rr — GDonato ( talk) 12:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I wish to contest this block. Adding a tag that has never before appeared at the top of a section to that section is certainly not "undoing the actions of another editor," which means that I did not violate 3RR. Please unblock me! NCdave 20:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
I will address only the WP:BLP issue, which has been opportunistically raised here by NCdave to justify his edit-warring. The BLP issue was raised here, and I responded to it at length, the bottom line being that reliably sourced criticism of a public figure acting in his public role does not violate BLP. As no one else shared NCdave's BLP concerns, I suggested he go to the BLP noticeboard to solicit outside opinions if he still felt that violations were being ignored. He chose, instead, to drop the BLP line in favor of other lines of attack (e.g. accusing other editors of vandalism during what was clearly a content dispute). I'm not going to respond further here or be drawn into an argument, but as the BLP issue has suddenly been re-raised to justify edit-warring, I've addressed it. MastCell Talk 18:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to continue arguing with you here. I merely wanted to address the BLP issue, as it was being raised as an ex post facto justification. I won't be posting further here. MastCell Talk 23:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Note, too, that:
Please unblock me. NCdave 11:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:GDonato
Peroxisome 22:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed that you be banned from the Steven Milloy article for long-term tendentious editing. The relevant thread is on the community sanction noticeboard. MastCell Talk 22:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I have accepted your request to be mentored. Please see my talk page. -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 11:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Dave, first of all let me say that I am impressed that you are going down the mentorship path. It shows moral courage. I'm going to reply to your last email here so that your mentor can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong about anything. (Apologies in advance for the long post) You asked me to to explain what behaviour was unacceptable and why here are a few of the diffs and links to relevant policy:
You are right, Cailil. All I can say in my defense is that it was 2.5 years ago, and I'd only been on Wikipedia for just over a week, and was still learning the ropes. NCdave 23:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... the above comment [when inserted with a "::" prefix] messed up the numbering of Cailil's nicely numbered list. How does one go about inserting an indented comment in a numbered list, without resetting the number counter? NCdave 23:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)I guess by using the <blockquote></blockquote> HTML constructs? I've changed my "::"-prefixed and ":::"-prefixed comments to use nested <blockquote></blockquote> tags. That restored the numbering, but it seems less than ideal, because it causes successive comments to be rendered in successively smaller fonts. Is there a better way? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Cailil, would you please identify what you think is WP:SYN in that section?
Raymond Arritt was repeatedly asked that question, by multiple editors, but declined to answer. I truly would like to know. I can't see anything there that looks like synthesis to me. Raymond blanked the section just 10 minutes after I added it, and his edit summary was just "(rm WP:SYN, WP:OR per Talk)." Yet (despite his "per Talk" reference) he did not attempt to justify doing so on the Talk page. In fact, he never did. Immediately after he blanked the section, he was asked by multiple editors what was the alleged SYN and OR. [45] [46] [47] But he refused to answer, saying, "There was no point in adding to what was plainly stated in my edit summary". I pointed out the great lengths to which I had gone before adding the section, to answer all objections and achieve consensus. Another editor asked what was the supposed SYN and OR. I agreed and asked again, "where is the WP:OR and WP:SYN ... Please be specific." [48] [49]. No answer. A week later I asked again. Finally, after two weeks w/ no answer, I gave up. So I really would like to know what you think was WP:SYN in that section. NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but I wasn't wiki-lawyering. I just read the rules and tried to follow them. A straightforward reading of the rules indicates that I was not in violation of 3RR, since I did not bring the page back to what it looked like 4 (or even 3) times in a 24-hour period. NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
That diff just shows a punctuation improvement. It was not a rebuttal or argument with someone. NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
If you feel passionate about a subject its probably best to stay far away from its Wikipedia article. Passion for subject is a wonderful thing but wikipedia requires editors to be dispassionate about the subjects they edit.We admire them and want our visitors to see how fierce and clever they are, so we stuff them and mount them for close inspection. [...] But however much we adore tigers, a live tiger loose in the museum is seen as an urgent problem.
Why not? Is there a policy somewhere on this?
And do you truly mean to say that a temporarily blocked user should never be permitted to answer accusations made against him? That's the result of forbidding comments in archives, when (as in this case) the accused is blocked before he learns of the complaint, and the discussion is archived before the block ends. That doesn't seem right, to me. Does it to you? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
That's interesting. I'd not seen Raul's laws. Does No. 13 seem as ironic to you as it does to me, since Raul (who banned me) certainly left no doubt where his sympathies lie? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Consider these points Dave. But please don't rush to rebut what I'm saying here. I've been careful in considering the diffs MastCell provided and what I found in your contribs. I'm what Durova calls a wikisleuth, I track down the most difficult to catch vandals. I never consider a WP:CSN case on face value, I've as often refused to support action as I have supported it because I try to conduct as thorough an investigation as possible into the situation.
Dave, you could make valuable contributions to wikipedia when you get to grips with these problems, take a look at the 5 pillars of WikiPedia or WP:EQ to gain a fuller understanding of the site's code of conduct. It is my most sincere hope that you can become a great wikipedian, but I must place this caveat, if you don't turn away from the above sort of bad behaviour more sanctions will come and they would be justified. This is your second chance, grab it with both hands-- Cailil talk 22:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Afterword: just so you know, I think the way you have behaved at Talk:HPV vaccine is an example of constructive editing.-- Cailil talk 00:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Cailil has done a pretty good job in summing up the issues that have brought us to this point. The only point that I differ with is the comment about passion. Passion can be a great asset to an editor. In theory you will be have a greater knowledge about the things you are most passionate about. The problem is that our greatest strengths are often our greatest weaknesses. When passion moves beyond knowledge of a subject and enters the realm of emotion only trouble can follow. So I would simply say to use extreme caution when editing something you feel strongly about and be particularly aware of any reverts, challenges or edits that seem to offend you. That could be a sign that you are too involved emotionally.
Now, let's talk about a couple of hard and fast rules I suggest you adopt. This is only a suggestion and it is designed to avoid any trouble at all. I don't expect you to agree with all of them but I can assure you that if you follow them you will have less friction in the future.
Why? Note that the editor who banned me had a clear conflict of interest. Should that not be grounds for lifting the ban which he imposed? NCdave 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Now, these things are suggestions. I have no power to force you to do anything. I will enforce our policies here and work to make this the best encyclopedia possible. Work with me and you will soon be back in better or good standing. Good luck! -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 11:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC) [[Category:]]
As your mentor, I would suggest you cease any contact with User:MastCell. That includes the checkuser case and your CSN discussion. That's over lets move on ok? -- JodyB yak, yak, yak 11:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Blaylock's Wellness Report and his website [54] are published by NewsMax Media Inc. [55].
According to [56] the website blaylockreport.com was created 26 May 2004. The website material was probably written by a NewsMax HTML editor from a bunch of papers supplied by Blaylock's secretary and not written by Blaylock himself.
If you were to read my "latest" Resume written in the 1980's it would seem to claim that I am now working at my old Seattle job, which I have not had for many years after I retired. When Dr. Blaylock retired in 2003, he probably did not update his CV.
Yes, that hurts his credibility and he should correct this problem. I don't want to spend any more time on it, but if you want to ask him for more credible information, you could write to:
Advanced Nutritional Concepts
9 Lakeland Sq
Flowood, MS 39232
(601) 982-1175
I got those from a blog dated Sept 25, 2004 and may no longer be his current address. Greensburger 18:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Blaylock's Lakeland Square address seems to have changed to (or from ?) 1000 Lakeland Square Extension in Flowood, MS 39232-7650. This address is shared by several companies and individuals including Lakeland Family Clinic, Specialty Pharmacy, Cahoots Party World, etc.
Here are two web pages that gives his middle name as Lane and the year 1971 that he received his MD degree: [57] [58] The second page gives his PO Box address in Ridgeland, MS.
I suggest that we avoid giving his full middle name in the Wiki article so that we can continue to distinguish secondary sources from primary sources.
Here is a chatty note from Blaylock (scroll down to "71") that gives his email address. http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/alumni_affairs/tigerlines I am not going to email him. Greensburger 00:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
On the web site for the Louisiana State University School of Medicine there is this page: http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/alumni_affairs
that invites graduated students to order copies of their transcripts. "Requests cannot be made by 2nd parties." But maybe they will verify Russell L. Blaylock's claim to have received an MD degree from the LSU School of Medicine in New Orleans in 1971. I have not asked them. Greensburger 13:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe my edit to the article Talk page addressed your concerns. Greensburger 18:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the critical comments regarding that block. First thing, I want to draw your attention to WP:LINKSPAM: Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. Although the specific links may be allowed under some circumstances, repeatedly adding links will in most cases result in all of them being removed. What this means is that links that are not "spam" (noun) in the sense of blatant advertising can still be "spammed" (verb) across wikipedia. Christopher russo clearly was "spamming" the single link, in violation of these guidelines. Next, a third party had warned the user using standard warning templates up to the final warning. This was an unambiguous case of a user being in violation of a blockable offense. The purpose of blocks is not to punish, but to prevent disruptive editing from occurring. In retrospect, I could have kept my nose clean by asking for another admin to do the deed. However, at the time, I felt that I was not blocking due to a content dispute or 3RR or something that I was personally involved with. The spam warnings all came from another user, and Christopher russo was unambiguously in violation. However, in the future, I may want to avoid blocking anyone I have argued with to avoid the public shame of the warning you left on my user page ;) - Andrew c [talk] 15:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
How did you reach the conclusion that "the result was delete," for List of conductors? At the time you declared the result, the head count 5-4, which sounds like "no consensus" to me. The 9th person voted "delete." If you'd waited a little less time it would have been a 4-4 tie. If you'd waited a little more time it might have been a 5-5 tie. NCdave 01:47, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Sen. Helms instances of Bigotry are well documented during his tenure in office. Read the article under controversies and that alone is enough to warrant a label of Bigot. Stop writing half-truths and covering it with the title of encyclopedic literature.
Alvin Harris Grandextrav —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRANDEXTRAV ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Dave,
Common sense should tell you that just because Sen. Helms racist policies did not directly affect you personally, does not mean his racist rhetoric and actions toward others were non- exsistant.
Alvin A. Harris —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRANDEXTRAV ( talk • contribs) 19:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Dave,
Increasing efforts to combat AIDS in Africa??? Serouisly Dave, if you think that single effort on the part of Sen. Helms outwheighs his blatant racist rhetoric and lopsided policies towards minorities in his own country during his tenure then you are delusional and i do not care to conversate with you any further on this point.
Alvin A. Harris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.232.153.118 ( talk) 20:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
In your support of not telling people the entire truth of Sen. Jesse Helms instances of Bigotry , I seriously question your desire for truth and accuracy. Unless of course you share the same racist veiws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GRANDEXTRAV ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
1.In columns, commentaries and pronouncements from the Senate floor, Helms sowed hatred and called names: The University of North Carolina was "the University of Negroes and Communists." (Capital Times, 11/22/94) Black civil rights activists were "Communists and sex perverts." (Copley News Service, 8/23/01)
2.Of civil rights protests Helms wrote, "The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere with other men's rights." (WRAL-TV commentary, 1963)
3.He also wrote, "Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life which must be faced." (New York Times, 2/8/81)
4.when a caller to CNN's Larry King Live show praised guest Jesse Helms for "everything you've done to help keep down the niggers," Helms' response was to salute the camera and say, "Well, thank you, I think." (Wilmington Star-News, 9/16/95)
Dave,
those examples alone warrant the label of Bigot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.232.153.118 ( talk) 22:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
1.Helms opposed the Martin Luther King holiday bill in 1983
2.After a protest during his 1986 visit to Mexico, Sen. Helms was quoted: "All Latins are volatile people": end quote
and lastly, i write in disgust!
3.As an aide to the 1950 Senate campaign of North Carolina Republican candidate Willis Smith, Sen. Helms helped create attack ads against Smith's opponent Frank Graham, including one which read: "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." :end quote
Dave,
is this enough? or should i continue to post more?
Alvin A. Harris
144.232.153.118 (
talk) 22:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC) : )
Hey, thanks for pointing that out for me, I didn't see the reference there. I removed the no references temp and fixed up the reference link so it appears in a reference list at the bottom of the page. Happy editing! Icestorm815 ( talk) 20:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Dave - This is going to be a controversial topic, and I hope and expect we'll find common ground quickly. It would be, I think, appropriate for that link or something like it to be somewhere in Wikipedia. I do appreciate your support! Simesa ( talk) 11:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I am contacting you here because I don't want to take up and more space on the article talk page with interpersonal issues. I have admitted to making 1 edit without an accompanying talk page discussion. That would be the 21:21, 18 February 2008 edit. However, like I explained, I thought this was a case of link spam. And editor had gone to 4 or so articles and added the exact same external link, and I also left a message for the editor on the first article I encountered the link. My next edit was roughly 14 hours later. Within 30 minutes of this edit, I posted my talk page explanation. I had started typing it right after I made the edit. But the delay in the post was due to me scouring the internet for sources. I was trying to find information to advance the position that CPCs offer adoption grants and only found that one source in my search. This is explained in that edit. I did receive an edit conflict when I hit "save page" because you had posted your two word "Good call" reply while I was composing my post. Immediately after that, I started writing a response to your post explaining my edit. This was posted minutes after my first reply. After I had finished explaining why I made my edit, I looked at the article to see that you had already reverted some of my changes without having read my replies and this is why I posted my "ACK!" comment (and I can see now that the reason was because you did your reverting while I was still typing up my reply). So I can see your perspective. You were impatient and were unaware that a talk page explanation was forthcoming. Now, can you see my perspective that my first edit of today DID in fact have not one, but two accompanying talk page explanations directed to the corresponding editors whose edits I modified. I apologize that research takes time and that I didn't type faster, but I do take offense at your claims that I edited without discussing. So hopefully we can clear up this stuff, and focus on the meat of the article! - Andrew c [talk] 21:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for participating in the discussion at abortion and mental health. I have added additional notes on the discussion page regarding materials that have consistently been purged. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.-- Strider12 ( talk) 02:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello, NCdave. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. MastCell Talk 23:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry for omitting "Why don't you" in front of my comment which probably resulted in the misunderstanding. It's an analogy. James Dobson to homosexuality is almost like David Reardon, a source that she likes very much, to abortion. That was at least my opinion and that's why I said it. Please do not take my comments out of context in the future. мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ ( talk) 22:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
After reading your arguments on the 3R page, I am not sure if I did violate 3R. It was certainly not my intention, as there was much going back-and-forth between us both. At the time, I didn't think that I did violate 3R, and you didn't post the links on my talk page. I have been waiting for your response to my long post on the talk page of the article. I hope that consensus can still be built.-- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 03:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, I struck out the comment I made on the 3R notice board. While I continue to believe that the text you inserted about Psalm 39 is an advertisement, this fact may not be relevant to the issue at hand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:IronAngelAlice_reported_by_User:NCdave_.28Result:_.29 -- IronAngelAlice ( talk) 03:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Accusing other editors "tendentious edit-warring and POV-pushing" [61] in the absence of overwhelming evidence for such a characterization is beyond the pale and constitutes a personal attack. Please state your case in a more constructive manner. Let's all show the courtesy for others that we would expect for ourselves. Thanks Raymond Arritt ( talk) 19:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
When you edited Requests for comment/Strider12 you accidentally deleted massive amounts of unrelated text. I have reverted. Please reinsert (correctly) your edit. Sbowers3 ( talk) 20:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm writing to make it clear that some of your most recent comments to IAA on Talk:Crisis pregnancy center have been clearly unproductive and even uncivil at times. I understand that you are frustrated with that user, but please do not let your personal negative feelings come through on talk pages where content, not editors, should be the focus of discussion. It was appropriate to take your concerns and frustration to 3RR. There are also a number of other options you have here on wikipedia when dealing with difficult users. But verbal abuse simply is not one of the options. Saying things like Who are you kidding?? and Alice, it is plain that you have never darkened the door of a CPC. Why are you editing here? You are SO confused about them!... it is really obvious that you know very little about CPCs. and That's ridiculous. all build to have an antagonist tone. How would you respond to someone saying similar things to you? And then bringing up a 3RR report in 3 different comments will only work to bring about off topic discussion and interpersonal disputes. If you make personal accusations against editors on talk pages (like bringing up that they "inserting the false claim"s in the past), they are often inclined to defend themselves, and thus waste even more space which should be used to discuss article content. Please read through your comments while ignoring all the negative criticism directed towards IAA and see if the overall point is reduced.
Finally, a number of your comments have mentioned things from your personal experiences and anecdotes. I just want you to keep in mind that that sort of content is not appropriate in articles, and thus those lines or reasoning on talk pages are ultimately unproductive. We cannot cite your personal experience with the UCC or the Raleigh CPC or Project Rachel. I am not saying that you need to completely suppress your personal feelings and experiences on the matter, it just seems to me that large portions of some of your replies are unnecessary because those lines of reasoning cannot be translated to article content. Keep in mind that wikipedia talk pages are not simply a discussion forums, and that WP:SOAP applies there as well. And I honestly am not trying to be harsh here. I just don't want you to in essence "waste" time writing about personal anecdotes.
Thanks for listening and taking these things into consideration. Hope this helps and good luck!- Andrew c [talk] 16:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
For some time I have thought that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas article is not neutral, mainly because it gives undue weight to human emissions, and neglects to mention virtually any information about natural sources of GHGs. I attempted some edits, which are as expected being resisted by the articles authors. The problem is that I am stuck in a ridiculous situation where the authors refuse to acknowledge that the dispute about neutrality even exists, repeatedly removing the POV tag from the article despite the fact that I am obviously disputing it.
Repeatedly linking to wiki policy on NPOV disputes and quoting sections about not removing the POV tag simply because you disagree with it hasn't helped. I am being threatened with the 3RR if I add the tag again. I am not asking for you to put the tag back up for me (unless you also think that the article is not neutral) but I would welcome your input to the discussion. I am trying to keep the argument about the addition/removal of the POV tag, rather than being drawn into arguments about global warming. Restepc ( talk) 23:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Please read the rules on tagging. You do not spuriously tag a page, just because you do not like the current version, or because there is an ongoing discussion. That would make the POV tag appear on just about all articles, with a reasonable modicum of differing opinions.
If you believe that the page is exhibiting POV problems - then engage in Talk. That is a requirement for putting that tag on a page. That means: Specific descriptions of what you believe is POV, what can be done about it - and an active engagement in Talk.
I eagerly await your input on Talk, with specifics for your concern. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 22:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Hrafn inserted on my Talk page a big block of text consisting of comments by about 5 different editors, from an article Talk page, thus making it appear that those editors had commented here. I asked him to delete it, but he refused, and suggested that I delete it myself. Click on the links to see the material. NCdave ( talk) 15:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
'"if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed."'
Guy, the only one having the "ongoing dispute" is you, the Junior-league attorney. Consensus is -- well, not on your side. -- Calton | Talk 13:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
But a quick reminder, from above:
"This is just a friendly note to let you know that you have reverted Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed three times is less than 24 hours, so that you don't accidentally violate WP:3RR by reverting it a 4th time"
And this is a friendly reminder that:
-- Calton | Talk 13:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Several have brought your recent behavior to my attention, and looking over your participation at the Expelled article and several user talk pages over the last 24 hours, I'm issuing you a warning about WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, and edit warring. If you continue as you have I will seek a topic ban for you at that and any related articles and a block for distruption if necessary. FeloniousMonk ( talk) 17:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
WarthogDemon has smiled at you! Smiles promote
WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Cheers, and Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{
subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
- Warthog Demon 04:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I already tried to bring it up, if you have any more luck than I did, good for you. The easiest way to promote civilty is to "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you." Saksjn ( talk) 13:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Had you followed my replies to your comment on my talk-page you'd have noticed that i said that i reverted 2 times - not 3. Thats because one of the reverts is marked "RVV" which means "revert vandalism". the WP:3RR rule states:
So i have not breached 3RR. You on the other hand seem to want to ignore other peoples comments. Since you seem to be (almost) alone on your take about clouds.
Now let me try to explain my stance on clouds (outside of the guidelines for article talk pages).
Water vapor is only one aspect of cloud creation. Aerosols are another necessary requirement, since droplets cannot form without something to "seed" them - as well as short term changes in temperature (and pressure). There is no reason to think that because there is more water vapor in the atmosphere - that you'd then get more clouds. Its the relative humidity which is a factor - not the absolute humidity. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 20:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Your participation on the expelled article is unhelpful and counterproductive. You have received several warnings, but these have apparently not dissuaded you. Consider this your final warning. If you continue to disrupt the article, I'm going to block you. Raul654 ( talk) 23:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm standing with NCdave here. He has some things to learn about involvement in discussions, but he keeps the discussion on getting the article balanced. Is the artical POV... HECK YA!!!! Hopefully he'll learn to be a little less confrontational (something I am prone to being as well) but we don't have a reason to block him. If he ever is blocked it needs to be by an admin not related to the article. Raul, I respect you as an admin but don't think you should be involved in blocking him. Saksjn ( talk) 13:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Please let me know wherever you are editing for two reasons. 1. I'm often on your side. 2. I want to help keep you out of trouble. If you get in any major disputes try to cool off and let me and some of my friends argue for you. Looking forward to hearing from you soon. Saksjn ( talk) 00:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This user believes in Intelligent Design |
Saksjn ( talk) 01:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
The Expelled article is already too big and Sternberg already has his own page (two, actually), where it's well-referenced. We don't need a discussion of the controversy on the film's page as well. KarlM ( talk) 16:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I think Karl was referring to these two pages: Richard Sternberg and Sternberg peer review controversy. I'm not quite sure why he posted this on your page though. JBFrenchhorn ( talk) 05:13, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Since you have choosen to continue your disruptive editing on the Expelled article despite my final warning above, I have blocked you for one week. Raul654 ( talk) 20:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, when I did give you that warning, you tried to claim I was involved in a dispute with you by collecting every edit I had ever made there - none of which involved you - and then claiming I was in a dispute.
I informed you then that you were incorrect. As to what specifically you did wrong, there
was a long talk page thread on just that topic. And I know you were aware of it because you participated in it.
Raul654 (
talk) 07:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
NCdave ( block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser ( log))
Request reason:
The admin who blocked me was in conflict with me at
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, and so should have recused himself as an admin. Also, despite my repeated requests, he will not identify any of my "disruptive" edits.
Raul654 is actively involved with editing the article and talk page, and he sided against me repeatedly. For example:
Raul654 is not a neutral admin, so I asked him to recuse himself. Instead, he blocked me for a week.
I also asked him, several times, to identify the edits that he objected to. But,
like FeloneousMonk, he has ignored all such requests.
I asked him:
The only objectionable edits on my part which Raul654 has identified were "repeated insistence on tagging the article with a POV tag." In deference to Raul654's complaint, I've not added the POV tag again, though several other editors agree with me that the article certainly needs one.
I try hard to edit with a spirit of compromise and consensus-building. That doesn't mean I never err, but if you review my edits and talk page comments I think you will see that I've obviously been trying to work politely with all editors, not just those whose POV I share.
It doesn't always work. For example,
I was accused of "insincerity" for being too friendly, and of
"playing the WP:CIVIL game" for being too polite.
But sometimes the patience pays off. For instance, on the Greenhouse gas article's talk page you can see how I managed, after a LONG, patient negotiation, to reach a compromise with editors with whom I disagree, to fix significant inaccuracies in the article. [67] The discussion culminated with this comment:
So I've been blocked for a week for an offense that has not been identified, by an admin who was editing in conflict with me on the article.
Here are some additional relevant links:
Please unblock me. NCdave ( talk) 08:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Decline reason:
I did a lot of digging into this situation and here's what I have concluded. First, Raul654 has edited the article but that doesn't mean that he's in a dispute with you: he's just one of many editors that supports the mainstream version. Even if he was, though, it wouldn't mean that his block should be overturned -- the question is whether your behavior merits the block or not.
Second, your contributions to the article talk page have been mostly irrelevant, inflammatory, and unhelpful. Most of your discussion comments are not actually about the article at all, but are rather about The Truth about Intelligent Design, the motivations of those who push for it and against it, the US Constitution, the Kitzmiller case, et cetera. Although you haven't readded the POV tag since Raul warned you not to, you have continued to push and push to try to get others to believe the way you do about the topic.
This is fundamentally not compatible with Wikipedia editing. The purpose of the talk page is to discuss the article: you claim it is POV but hardly ever talk about the specifics of any text within the article, except as a launching-off point for arguments you want to make about intelligent design. You've been violating WP:SOAPBOX at the article talk page. It has become disruptive because of its sheer volume and because it is irrelevant, distracting, and tends to escalate the already difficult situation at the article; I notice you even de-archived comments of this sort when others had archived inappropriate threads in order to try to bring focus back to the article. Another problem with your comments is your apparent high level of emotional involvement, which leads you to violate WP:AGF and make pointed if not overtly incivil comments.
Not all of your comments are like this. I did see a few where you had brought in new source material, or spent a little time directly discussing article text. However, even in those cases it is clear you were trying to push your point of view. Neutrality is not achieved via stalemate between two sides at war, but rather by finding common ground and setting personal opinion aside. Certainly not all your comments towards others are incivil. But I really don't think you've done the article any good at all, and you've made things difficult for a lot of other editors for a long time, so this block is justified.
Now, Raul was not very specific about this in his warning to you. But many other users have commented about exactly these kinds of issues to you before and you've simply ignored them and continued. While your Terri Schiavo RFC is old news, it shows the exact same type of problem. And while you didn't readd the POV tag you have persisted in exactly the same types of comments since the warning. So people have certainly pointed out this problem to you repeatedly, but you persist in this. Mango juice talk 20:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{ unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
I'm supporting you. JBFrenchhorn and I are fighting for you at the talk page and at the notice board. Good luck, and know that we agree with you that Raul took this too far. Saksjn ( talk) 13:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that any Admin contemplating an unblock read NCDave's blocklog & Neutrality's reason for blocking him nearly three years ago: "Consistent POV pushing, long talk page rants, and reverts.." It would seem that very little has changed in the intervening years. Hrafn Talk Stalk 13:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Irrespective of this user's previous disruption, I think it's fair to ask the blocking admin what specific edits he objects to. I can't immediately find any disruption in this user's recent edits. As to the recusal issue, the burden of proof is on the blocked user to clearly establish – with succinctly presented diffs – that he is in a current content dispute with the blocking admin. The assertions in the unblock request do not meet that standard. Sandstein ( talk) 18:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Hafrn, many of your "tin foil hat" and "Paronioa" comments have been rather attacking. Don't try to come up with an excuse. As the Bible advises, "Don't worry about the speck in your brother's eye, when you have a log in your own." Now, you may not have a log in your eye, but its still good advice. Saksjn ( talk) 20:29, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() |
The Original Barnstar | |
For your efforts to bring a netural point of view to articles, especially the Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed article, I award you this barnstar. While blocked, just remember, you've been expelled because you're intelligent. Meanwhile, if you're bored, take a look at The Age of the Machine. You've been expelled from Wikipedia because there is clique that controls these articles. There is a consensus version because those who do not support the consensus are blocked. Good luck. Fight the Clique ( talk) 02:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)}} |
Good grief, there's an edit war been going on here on my own talk page, and I didn't even notice it!
Fight_the_Clique, thank you for the Barnstar, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with your use the word "mafia." Would you mind if I edit that out? I'm not sure what the etiquette is w/r/t such things.
Hmmm... I see that you are blocked and -- Yikes! -- you are blocked for being a sockpuppet of me! Hey, Krimpet, Metros, Mangojuice, et al, I have no idea who Fight the Clique is, but he certainly is not me! Will someone please do a checkuser and verify that? NCdave ( talk) 22:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
If it has been resolved that User:Fighttheclique is not a sock puppet of NCdave than why are there people still acting like it! This is not block request abuse! I have never seen this many people support the innocence of a single editor in my whole wikipedia life! If this many people continue to support him I'm pretty sure its safe to say he has a right to keep fighting. Even if he can't fight we'll keep fighting for him! Saksjn ( talk) 13:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process [86] by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable.-- Filll ( talk) 14:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() |
You have been accused of
sockpuppetry. Please refer to
Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/193.34.144.63 for evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with
notes for the suspect before editing the evidence page.
Aunt Entropy (
talk) 07:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am not 193.34.144.63. I assume that 193.34.144.63 is User:Fight_the_Clique, but I don't know who that is.
- I have not restored my own barnstar. Your statement that I admitted doing so is mistaken. I think that your mistake probably results from a misinterpretation of 193.34.144.63's edit summary, which was apparently in answer to a question I had asked.
- When Fight_the_Clique awarded me the barnstar, he used what I thought was unnecessarily harsh language. I particularly cringed when I read the word "mafia," so I asked him:
- Fight_the_Clique, thank you for the Barnstar, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with your use the word "mafia." Would you mind if I edit that out? I'm not sure what the etiquette is w/r/t such things.
- and then:
- Fight_the_Clique, since you are blocked, you can't reply here to my request for consent to edit out your "mafia" remark, but you can email me to give me permission. Just click on "E-mail this user" while viewing my user page or user talk page. Or if the Wikipedia email system won't let you do that, there's an email address on my user page (but the "E-mail this user" link goes to a better address). Thanks.
- It was my intent to edit the barnstar language after receiving his emailed permission. But Fight_the_Clique didn't email me. Instead, 193.34.144.63 (who is presumably Fight_the_Clique) edited the Barnstar directly, and changed "mafia" to "clique," and in his edit summary he wrote, "No permission is needed to edit your own talk page." That was clearly a reply to my question, which had asked Fight_the_Clique for his consent to tone down the language in the barnstar award. It was not an admission that I was the one doing the editing.
- I can understand how that confused you, Aunt Entropy. But will you please withdraw your accusation of sockpuppetry, or else promptly request a checkuser, so that I can get this blot removed from my talk page?
NCdave has much too long of an edit history to be a sock puppet. A sock puppet wouldn't have been around this long, or have fought this long. Saksjn ( talk) 13:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I see Mackan79 removed the template before I could. I agree I placed it in error, I apologise for that. I am adding a note to the Suspected Sock page, but I don't know how to withdraw it. If anyonw can help, let me know.
However, you may claim you do not know Fight the Clique, but it seems he knows you.
And Saksjn, your assertion isn't logical. There is no reason an established user cannot form a sock. -- Aunt Entropy ( talk) 17:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
My fault. I read the tag as asserting that NCdave was a sock puppet, not a puppeteer. My bad. Saksjn ( talk) 19:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and unblocked you ... I was under the impression that since another admin cut the block down that the issue was completed. Looks like I was wrong. Blueboy 96 20:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop. If you continue to use talk pages such as
Talk:Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed for inappropriate discussion, as described
here, you may be blocked.
Hrafn
Talk
Stalk 17:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that comment was soapboxing. Who else was warned? Saksjn ( talk) 15:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Can you chime in with your thoughts here? Thanks. Nightscream ( talk) 03:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I noticed that you have participated at Intelligent desgin. What is going on? I just watched an excellent documentary tonight, just got back, and I wanted to insert some information that was presented in this film. But low and behold, the article is locked down. It's like the Berlin Wall. The documentary must be true. Please unlock this article and allow academic freedom. Yhvh777 ( talk) 03:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Read WP:SPADE & WP:TALK#Others' comments: "Deleting material not relevant to improving the article", and stop engaging in spurious WP:HARASSment on my talkpage
Hrafn, please refrain from insulting other editors, as in this edit, in which you called another editor's critique of the Expelled article's POV bias a "WP:SOAPbox rant," and this one in which you called fellow editors "paranoid" and suggested that they wear "tinfoil hats," and this one in which you accusing a fellow editor of exhibiting signs of "anti-intellectualism," and this sarcastic remark suggesting they are foolish and their opinions are "unsubstantiated, illogical hyperbole," and this demand that a fellow editor "learn to read," and this one in which you told an editor to "please stop asking inane questions."
Such remarks are prohibited by WP:Civility, which is an official Wikipedia policy. In addition, WP:Etiquette says:
- Don't label or personally attack people or their edits.
- Terms like "racist", "sexist" or even "poorly written" make people defensive. This makes it hard to discuss articles productively. If you have to criticize, you must do it in a polite and constructive manner. - Wikipedia:Etiquette#How_to_avoid_abuse_of_talk_pages
Also, please do not delete [90] [91] or hide [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] other people's comments on the article Talk page. How can we hope to achieve consensus if you will not allow other editors to discuss the article and its problems? Also, you might be unaware of the fact that striking through other editor's comments, as you did here, is explicitly frowned upon on Wikipedia:
- "Do not strike out the comments of other editors without their permission." - Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_comments
- "Though editing articles is acceptable (and, in fact, encouraged), editing the signed words of another editor on a talk page or other discussion page is generally not acceptable" - Wikipedia:Etiquette#A_few_things_to_bear_in_mind
So please don't do that anymore, either.
Thanks for listening. NCdave ( talk) 03:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC) & 03:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- NCdave, you are one of the most disruptive editors on Wikipedia with a long block log. What you are referring to above is standard practice for managing controversial articles on Wikipedia, achieved through consensus. If you do not like it, you are welcome to edit Conservapedia. Good day sir.-- Filll ( talk) 03:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The preceding unsigned section was moved here by user Hrafn from his own Talk page at 04:58 on 19 April 2008, and hidden by misused {{hat}}/{{hab}} templates (which I have removed) -- NCdave
Thanks for your comments. Yes, the First Amendment was the odd-one-out in the Bill of Rights, the only clause aimed solely at restricting Federal legislators. Federal nations aren't easy to govern... David Trochos ( talk) 12:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Looks like Raul picked his next victim: me. I wouldn't mind a little help if he actually blocks me. By the way, where ya been? Saksjn ( talk) 19:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed your comment from Strider12's user page. It is not your user page, so it is not the place to express your opinion. KnightLago ( talk) 02:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, NCdave,
I'm wondering if we can come to some agreement here on your talk page about the quoting of Darwin out of context, because it is my opinion, and you're welcome to prove me wrong, that you are misreading Darwin's writings, and this has some impact on how you interpret the secondary source as well.
In particular, I believe the sentence if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil hinges on the contrast between the words "contingent" and "present"; where the word present doesn't mean that there is some other evil present to overwhelm the benefits of eugenics. He seems to be saying that if we neglect the weak it would be for some potential theoretical ephemeral benefit which is grossly outweighed by a real and actual evil: the immorality of us neglecting the weak.
What do you think? Merzul ( talk) 20:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Your latest edit to Jesse Helms here removed two quotes that you claim were not sourced. The first quote was well and properly sourced, which you would have realized had you actually bothered to look up the News & Observer article that was cited. I was unable to find the Feb 8 1981 NYT article because I don't have access to the databases but I did find other sources here and here confirming it. I understand your wish to keep Wikipedia accurate, but you seem eager to remove 'inaccurate' material that casts a negative light on Helms, at the expense of actually verifying that it is inaccurate. I don't disagree with your assertion that the "doctored photo" assertion should not be included unless we can find something better than the FAIR source, but you also removed the quote Smith won after a campaign featuring a newspaper ad that said, "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters in your mills and factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." which was sourced and can be found here. Please actually check sources before claiming that they don't support the article. -- TexasDex ★ 16:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello, NCdave. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#NCdave deleting uncomfortable material about Jesse Helms. Thank you. Banjeboi 16:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
"I am a stickler for truth and accuracy." Liar! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinthe ( talk • contribs) 00:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I feel justified after coming back reading NCDave's user talk and to see that finally administrators, and others on this board are becoming aware of your additions of half-truths and ommisions of actual facts. Especially in regards to the page of Sen. Jesse Helms. I want to personally thank each person who has held NCDave accountable for his bending and twisting of certain truths, ommiting pertinent information that should NOT be deleted, and at times... flat out lying to appease his warped point of view. My user name on this board is GRANDEXTRAV and if you read further up on his user talk page, I was one of the first to call NCDave out on his particular behavior on this board and toward the subject of TRUTH. NCDave...wake up man People are starting to see you for what you are... a Liar...-- GRANDEXTRAV ( talk) 17:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
That was not an attack...nor gloating.... NCDave deserves to be held accountable and any one else for that matter who tells half-truths and lies... and as for you, I can careless what you think it is the TRUTH... so deal with it-- GRANDEXTRAV ( talk) 23:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, I'm back... and here's a nice reminder of why I left. Lovely. :-( NCdave ( talk) 13:28, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I have emailed you to ask whether you would agree to participate in a short survey on how to cover scientific uncertainties/controversies in articles pertaining to global warming and climate change (survey described here). If interested, please email me Encyclopaedia21 ( talk) 19:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. You are being notified as you have made a number of edits to this page. I have found some concerns which you can see at Talk:Terri Schiavo case/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells ( talk) 21:20, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
See Talk:Lyndon LaRouche#Rejection by the DNC for a thread about your edits to that article. Will Beback talk 23:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I guess you should visit talk page of this infobox and:
Hello, NCdave!
It was really helpful of you to you to upload File:MSL Serie EN Global IB RWT NoGIA Adjust.gif. However, we need to properly format the image license information in order to keep and use new images.
If you can edit the description and add one of these templates, that would be great. If you're not sure how or would like some help, please ask us at the media copyright questions page and we'll be happy to assist you.
Thanks again! -- ImageTaggingBot ( talk) 10:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading File:MSL Serie J1 Global IB RWT NoGIA Adjust.gif. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.
To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. -- ImageTaggingBot ( talk) 11:06, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article KEVA Planks is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KEVA Planks until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
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A tag has been placed on TruthOrFiction.com requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Eeekster ( talk) 22:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello,
I reversed a revert on Watts Up With That, but I wanted to let you know because it is an article under restrictions. I think your revert was perhaps done without considering where the link went (to an article on environmental skepticism). The previous version had a pipe with "skepticism" as the marker: a designation that may be confusing because skepticism as a movement does not tend to adopt the Watts Up With That opinion on climate change, though in the past it did ( Michael Shermer being a prime example of a skeptic who switched sides). I think the link to environmental skepticism is a good one and describes the people who use that website well. I may be wrong, they may take offense and as you are a supporter of them, I gather, I would like to get your opinion. I don't want to confuse the readers of Wikipedia into mistaking a "skepticism" without qualifying adjectives for the kind of opinions that global warming sceptics have. Perhaps we can continue the conversation civilly at Talk:Watts Up With That? Nodnien ( talk) 13:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
To get more people to help, I started a conversation at NPOVN==Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion== Hello, NCdave. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Nodnien ( talk) 13:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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I have raised the business on the Heartland Institute talk page at WP:ANI#Could somebody block a conspiracy theorist for a while to show what they're doing is not welcome here. Dmcq ( talk) 15:20, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
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Formality only, as you have not been notified in the past 6 months. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹 🌉 10:58, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Please do not add commentary, your own point of view, or your own
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Patriot Prayer. Doing so violates Wikipedia's
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Tsumikiria⧸
🌹
🌉 18:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
If you disrupt SPI again, you risk being blocked. And don't attack SPI clerks.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 15:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi NCdave, I have reverted your addition to Warren Smith because red-linked articles on DAB pages should be accompanied by a link to an existing article ( MOS:DABRED); external links are not used ( MOS:DABEXT). Leschnei ( talk) 01:25, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Thank you NCdave for your report in the talk page on he death of John Brignell. Can I ask if you have any links to reports on that so we can close up that bio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:B500:4A0:0:0:0:D054 ( talk) 06:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an
edit war according to the reverts you have made on
Grammarly; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to
collaborate with others, to avoid editing
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try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Points to note:
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:07, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
Please refrain from doing promotional edits, as you did on grammarly. If you have any questions please leave a talkback on my talk page. 96.230.240.122 ( talk) 01:19, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
I have been editing in Good Faith, I think pricing is not promotional, but pricing does come under Wikipedia's promotional category. and after I saw your edit history, and your discussion with Ronz, I think it would be wise to not add the pricing section back on, because Ronz, or someone else (not that I would) could open up an ANI thread requesting a block for you 96.230.240.122 ( talk) 21:41, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
The article Nagare (web framework) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
Does not meet WP:GNG. All sources are directly from the project page, I could not find enough reliable third-party sources.
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I proposed deletion of Nagare (web framework), which you authored. If possible, I'd like to help you bring article up to Wikipedia standards. Please don't take article deletion proposal personal. Please consider the following:
Anton.bersh ( talk) 11:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Hello, NCdave. We
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