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A fluffernutter is a sandwich! ( talk) 15:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Your moves have both been undone. These were in no way minor edits. In fact, one of the moves has already been undone once, and it has been discussed and rejected on the talk page. Meters ( talk) 18:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Laurdecl: thank you! I knew I didn't select "minor edit," so it was weird that he was railing on me. But, thanks to you, now I know...and will make a note of it going forward. Appreciate it!
Just a word of encouragement about your proposal on Tulsa race riot and the others. I was initially dubious but I now see it as a valid and very relevant complaint, and fixable. best -- -- Lockley ( talk) 19:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for initiating the proposed moves at Talk:Tulsa race riot. I'm sorry that you got so much flak about trying to improve the names of the articles.
I recommend that you read WP:TITLE, especially the section titled "Use commonly recognizable names" (shortcut: WP:COMMONNAME). A Wikipedia article about an event is most likely to be titled whatever the most common name for the event is, right or wrong.
If the names by which scholars refer to some of these "riots" are starting to change, citing a few reliable sources that demonstrate that would help you tremendously.
Also, as a few other editors have suggested, consider whether a single discussion about moving 16 articles is the best course of action. Except in its broad strokes, each one of the 16 "riots" had different features.
Please let me know if I can help you with this, or in a future project. Also, please consider drawing on the resources of WP:WikiProject African diaspora—we're not very active, but you don't know who may be knowledgeable about a subject you need assistance with. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 03:34, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello Justbean,
I didn't want to gum up the RM even more with irrelevant-to-that-move-request commentary, but for what it's worth... Believe it or not, I am trying to *help* your request succeed. Like I said, I personally think that many of these topics are accurately referred to as a massacre (barring a few that don't have "enough" deaths and are closer to a "murder", since massacre usually implies a high death toll). Unfortunately, the arguments you're providing so far aren't what Wikipedia expects. You might be right, but not for the reasons you are stating. I am trying to see if you have sources that are of the form that Wikipedia would like for a move like this.
So. To separate this issue from race riot vs. massacre for a moment - I want to talk about Wikipedia's default philosophy with regards to both knowledge and naming, just if you're curious where I and some of the other opposers are coming from. You said to me before: " If 99 people say the sky is purple, and one person says it’s blue, are we to misrepresent the color of the sky until the 99 are ready to acknowledge it?" Well.. yes. That is a *core* insight to how Wikipedia works: it is NOT about being right, merely reflecting others. There's something liberating about that: you don't have to be right, you don't have to figure things out yourself, and you don't have to get into an extended argument with someone about what is right. You merely have to reflect what sources do. Two articles that go into this in detail are Verifiability, not truth, and Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat. So... yeah. If everyone says the sky is purple, the sky is purple. If everyone is wrong, then Wikipedia doesn't need to be the leading edge of the spear; eventually people will start noticing, and Wikipedia can upgrade to "there is a controversy on the color of the sky," and perhaps later, "people now know the sky is blue, although people used to think it was purple." But that debate is done elsewhere, not on Wikipedia. The articles go into the wisdom of this policy, but think of it this way: if Wikipedia was attempting to decree what was really true from among 3 dissenting opinions, it could get into far more hot water. This is the kind of thing that sounds great when you're right and everyone else is wrong, but is terrible when you're right and one fringe proponent goes and says he's right though he's actually wrong, and then edits in Confederate propaganda to the Civil War article or some such. I know you said that your move request doesn't have anything to do with those other examples I offered (Byzantine Empire, Anti-Semitism), but trust me, it does.
Specifically for article titles, this is more of a "philosophy of language" question, but names are just that: names. It is entirely legitimate to *disagree* with a name yet acknowledge that other people call it that name, and even that some people would be confused and not know what you were talking about if you used your own preferred name. I said that "free ice cream day" was offensive, and you said it was offensive. Yes, that was the point. Sometimes names are offensively wrong but they are *still* the name used. It doesn't mean or change anything about the event.
Going back to your requested move... you're talking past some of the points other people make. You keep on raising sources about how horrible these events were and indicating they were a massacre. That's great! As far as the content of the article. It is not, however, an argument about the title. The title is not a statement about the content of the article. The title is what this topic is referred to in high-quality sources. It is NOT an assessment of the event. It is just a set of words, nothing more. The article could be titled "FSERJHSDFHDFSBJK". Do you see why I keep harping on things like introductory sentences? (And, to be clear, you can reasonably think this policy is stupid - that Wikipedia SHOULD just analyze the event and come up with its own name. But that isn't usually what's done.)
Let me stress that Wikipedia doesn't have to be biased, and if it is, it can be fixed. You are entirely free and encouraged to edit these articles, to add in sourced details that portray the inhumanity of these actions, and to make it very clear that "race riot" was only PR to make it seem like both sides were at fault. If you do this, I think your next move attempt will have a better attempt at succeeding. I do hope you don't get too annoyed at Wikipedia over this; suffice to say, policies like these are put in place for reasons that hopefully make at least some sense - there totally are plenty of "fringe" POV pushers who want to move all articles to their preferred term, and you wouldn't agree with most of them. (We could end up with "Vigilante justice on Negro Lawbreakers" or the like if we did.) SnowFire ( talk) 06:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Your addition to
Cowboy has been removed, as it appears to have added
copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of
permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read
Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be
blocked from editing.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
13:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Justlettersandnumbers: thanks for your heads-up. Can you please tell me what I included that was copyrighted? I linked to images that are already files on Wiki. I cited my sources accordingly. I am trying to go by the book here, so I would appreciate any help. Thx. Justbean ( talk) 13:14, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
The source | Your text |
---|---|
White Americans seeking cheap land—and sometimes evading debt in the United States—began moving to the Spanish (and, later, Mexican) territory of Texas during the first half of the 19th century. Though the Mexican government opposed slavery, Americans brought slaves with them as they settled the frontier and established cotton farms and cattle ranches. | White Americans seeking cheap land—and sometimes evading debt in the United States—began moving to the Spanish (and, later, Mexican) territory of Texas during the first half of the 19th century. Though the Mexican government opposed slavery, Americans brought slaves with them as they settled the frontier and established cotton farms and cattle ranches. |
Alright @ Justlettersandnumbers:...just took another stab at it. Would you be kind enough to take a look and make sure it hits the mark? Thx! Justbean ( talk) 16:47, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
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Hello! Justbean,
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Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
15:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
|
Justlettersandnumbers Thank you!!!
Justbean (
talk)
16:13, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Justbean, I am sorry if it seemed I was saying that the deck was stacked against you. I did not mean to do that. I have often heard people complaining about text (or images) removed as copyright infringements, and in the vast majority of cases, when the person removing them was an experienced editor, as White Arabian Filly is, the content is in fact a copyright infringement. But expended editors can make mistakes, and I am more than ready to listen if you say that is what happened here. I note that in
one of your comments on this, you said that you had gone through the source "sentence by sentence" and reworded that. Please understand that doing that can result in a text where none of the words remain the same, but the sentence structure and paragaph struture are still identical to the source. As
Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing says: Close paraphrasing without in-text attribution may constitute
plagiarism, and when extensive (with or without in-text attribution) may also violate Wikipedia's
copyright policy, which forbids Wikipedia contributors from
copying material directly from other sources.
Public domain material must likewise be attributed to avoid plagiarism.
I am not saying this is what happened in this case, but it might have, and in any case you need to be aware that such close paraphrasing can be a problem here. (Note that it isn't always a problem. In text thas is a list of simple facts, arranged in an obvious order such as chronological or alphabetical, there is no US copyright under the
Feist decision. But that is not the situation here.)
DES
(talk)
DESiegel Contribs
19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
As to whether the content should be spun out into a separate article, perhaps Black cowboys, I have not carefully considered the details, and have no firm opinion. Often that is a good way to handle specialized content on Wikipedia -- in many other cases it is not the best way. As I understand it, cowboys historically were of varied ethnic and racial backgrounds: Mexican, Black, and Anglo and some others. All of these should be mentioned in the main article Cowboys. However if content about any one of these is so extensive that it overwhelms the others, that might be a case of undue weight, and be best handled with a summery and a link to a separate, more detailed, article. But I am not saying that this is the best way to handle this specific case. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
As to the page moves, i have read the comments on this page, but have not visited the articles in question. Do understand that there is a difference between an accurate description of an event, and its Common Name. Wikipedia normally uses the common name to title articles, but should include an accurate description within the article. For determining the common name, modern secondary reliable sources are most relevant. Historical sources are useful and may be essential for accurately recounting the event itself. Please do keep this distinction in mind. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
There is no bar at all to making large edits, but it can be easier for others to understand and deal with a series of smaller edits with individual summaries. When an edit is perceived to include significant copyright violations, the normal practice is to revert the entire edit, at once and without discussion, but with an explanation of the reason. It is not allowed to stay in place while it is being revised, nor does the reverting editor usually try to sort through what was and was not a violation in the course of a large edit. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a large place, with many complicated and non-obvious policies, guidelines, and customs. People tend to mention these as they come up, or as they think of relevant ones, rather than all at once. This can feel like a case of shifting goal posts, and be quite frustrating to newer editors. But most of these policies, guidelines, and customs has been put in place after discussion to solve problems as they arose. They can be changed, or set aside in particular cases. But people are often reluctant to do that. See Process is Important. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
(Just realized this was the incorrect source. I was mistaken. I apologize and retract it as an example.) Justbean ( talk) 12:20, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, DES, White Arabian Filly...just wanted to funnel this to one place, in hopes of wrapping it up.
White Arabian Filly, thank you for the response and clarification. But, let me explain why I was confused.
As Justlettersandnumbers initially pointed out, my first edit included some copyvio. However, it was a misunderstanding of the way things were presented on the page. Given "Cowboy" is a major page, my understanding was that reputable sources had been, more or less, copy-pasted and cited, as to minimize unsubstantiated opinion. Once I understood that this was not, in fact, the case, I changed my edit. When that edit was rejected, wholesale, confusion set in because 1) I didn't get any communication explaining the reasoning for the rejection and 2) I was at a loss as to how much liberty I should take when writing edits and 3) other editors suggested a myriad of reasons the edit may have been rejected (e.g. the edit was too "big" and wasn't "digestible," the edit "unbalances the coverage of the ethnic composition of American cowboys").
Naturally, this created a situation where it seemed as if my edit was being treated differently, not based on presentation, but on content...and that I would be put through hoops in order to have the edit accepted. However -- given a previous such experience on Wiki with an edit of similar content -- the thought I had was that, no matter what hoops I tried to get the edit through, the edit would always be rejected for "some" reason. I did not start out thinking this to be the case, as Justlettersandnumbers was correct to flag my initial edit. Yet, after changing the edit, and getting the edit rejected again (in its entirety), and hearing various reasons as to why the edit was "wrong" (which had nothing to do with copyvio)...it definitely seemed like things were headed in that direction. So, I do apologize for having that expectation, but hope you understand how/why that expectation developed.
So White Arabian Filly...if you'd be kind enough to let me know what your red flags are (e.g the entire edit, similarities with certain sources, etc.), I'd love to take a stab at the edit again.
Finally, I'm not a regular contributor, so my learning curve is still steep in some places. But when I do contribute, I want you to know that I take it seriously. And, from your willingness to communicate with me and help me out...I can tell that you all do too. And I sincerely appreciate your time, patience and your respectful willingness to help me. Justbean ( talk) 12:20, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, DES, White Arabian Filly. Hi all. I just wanted to thank you again and let you know that I took everyone's feedback to heart. I'm taking a chance and submitting a new edit. I tried really hard to cover everything, though I am not submitting in smaller chunks. This is one thing I decided to try, as the long edit provides context. The big do-over was really in making edits to the entirety of the Ethnicity section. Cullen328 pointed out that by only editing Black Cowboys, it "unbalances the coverage of the ethnic composition of American cowboys." While I think the balance of the ethnic composition is skewed toward white cowboys (as the "default"), and also find it an unfair burden to edit for ALL excluded minorities simply to include one, it was an issue that I wanted to take off the table. So, the new edit presents roughly ALL American cowboys...to the best of my current ability. The edits are meaty...meaty enough to be a springboard for each of their own pages (should someone else opt to write those), but lean enough to warrant their inclusion on a page about American cowboys. This was a big and sincere effort, so I really hope it sticks...and I can finally smoke that cigar! I haven't submitted it yet, but would appreciate hearing from one of you first. When I hear from you, I'll post it...and if one of you would be kind enough to look it over and give me a heads-up -- if you think I should take it down and retool my strategy -- that'd be awesome. So, hopefully I'll hear from one of you soon. If not...I'll just go all in and hope for the best. Regardless...thanks! Justbean ( talk) 21:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, Cullen328, DESiegel, and White Arabian Filly...
Hi all...you likely thought you were through with me, but alas...the goalpost keeps moving. After spending hours on research, inclusive of finding photos to include in WikiCommons, (User:Montanabw) reverted ALL my edits...including edits I didn't even make. For example, Montanabw wiped out the ENTIRE homosexual section, which was there before I even edited it...I simply added to it and provided more context. Montanabw's reasoning..."Remove a lot of changes that are not supported by appropriate source material." Sorry, but that's completely not true. This was researched to death. And there seems to be no one I can go to that will call this out.
No matter what I edit, if it's an accurate historical repression, involving race/gender/sexuality, the edit is always revered for "some" reason. I mean..."appropriate source material?" There was nothing wrong with my source material and everything I wrote was supported by it. This has nothing to do with the way I submitted content on Wiki, but has everything to do about the content itself. I think we all know that this is not about presentation...but perspective.
Montanabw proudly boasts about being from Montana and owning horses ( /info/en/?search=User:Montanabw), and I find it hard to believe that his/her perspective did not affect his/her motivation for removing every edit that did not fit into a particular worldview. My edit was accurate –– historically and grammatically. I even used sources that had been cited in other parts of the page. Yet...Montanabw wiped out EVERYTHING –– even edits to the "Cowgirls" section –– that, through accuracy, does not reflect a particular worldview of a "cowboy." My edit was no different than any other edit on the rest of the page...in fact, I'd be happy to put my research and writing up against any other edit that was on the page.
My edits, constantly facing these kind of arbitrary obstacles that are impossible to get around, is flat-out wrong. It goes against everything I've seen regarding Wiki rules. It is also wrong that someone, with an apparent agenda, has the authority to use Wiki to perpetuate inaccurate historical biases. I made an edit to do my best to provide accurate info on ALL American cowboys. And, AGAIN, my ENTIRE edit was wiped out, without so much as a message to even explain why. An editor who had Wiki users' best interest in mind would have at least communicated with me before wiping out, what was obviously hours of work, and tons of new information on Cowboys. However, Montanabw seemed to wipe out everything he/she politically disagreed with, gave some illogical 13-word arbitrary reason for doing so, and moved on. So, beyond being wrong for doing this, it's also dangerous...given that the general public uses Wiki as a source of info.
So, can one of you help me address this? Seriously, what do I do...where do I go from here? Thx Justbean ( talk) 21:37, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Cullen328, emphasizing words is the way I express myself at times. In this instance, I've emphasized points that do not make sense to me. If you assume my tone to be "indignant," that is your assumption. I haven't "conducted" myself in any manner beyond being confused. I've been genuine about my confusion with Wiki, especially given that, twice now, when making edits that have racial components, I receive conflicting and impossible-to-achieve advice. I can point to numerous instances on Wiki where other editors are not treated in the same manner. That is what I am emphasizing –– confusion at the difference in treatment.
I know, and respect, that Wiki is collaborative. However, twice now, on edits I've made that have had racial components, my collaborative effort has been shut down and given a revolving door of responses as to why. In other words, there is nothing I can do to satisfy all the editors' suggestions.
In pointing out that Montanabw's action seemed like he/she had a perspective agenda, I was merely pointing to Wiki's own admission that this collaborative project does, in fact, have a bias problem, inclusive of a Wiki racial bias. To sum up Wiki's recognition of this:
So, about 9/10 Wiki editors are of the same racial and gender background, which cultivates bias. That's simply a fact, recognized and stated by Wiki. And to imply that I'm somehow over-reacting by pointing out that it seems that my edit is being scrutinized by such a biased perspective, further accentuates that fact.
Finally, while it's great that you had a great personal experience with Montanabw, yours is only one. Wiki has 70,000 active contributors working on more than 41 million articles in 294 languages (about 12% of the articles are in English). So saying that Montanabw is Wiki's "best and most productive editor on equine topics," only shows your own bias in his/her favor. Furthermore, while Montanabw may have expertise in equine topics, my edit wasn't on horses, but on cowboys –– people. So while Montanabw may know plenty to be an authority on pages about mules, that in no way qualifies him/her to be an authority on the accuracy of information about minority, female, or gay cowboys. Justbean ( talk) 06:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, Cullen328, DESiegel, and White Arabian Filly...
While I don't expect to hear from any of you further, I did want to record this with you because you've kind of seen my effort at this edit...and because it's important that people know/understand that my concerns aren't just me "over-reacting."
To add on to the litany of revolving things my edit always seems to violate, Montanabw now said I committed an "unspecified infraction." Initially he/she said he/she reverted my edit to "Remove a lot of changes that are not supported by appropriate source material." Then he/she said, "Discussion is appropriate." Then, he/she surmised that "There is a lot of nonsense about cowboys out there and a lot of bad sources. This article is in need of careful development and accurate sourcing." Then, he/she accused me of copyvio. And then, in two paragraphs on the Talk page, he/she listed off a myriad of "other" things I supposedly violated.....including several of my edits not being "very good." However, this smacks in the face of logic given that, if I was guilty of these things, at least a few of them would have been flagged by any of you.
I took the time to go through and address each one of his/her accusations last night, on the Talk page. Especially since Montanabw demanded that my edits would be accepted if they were "reasonably decent, tight, well-written, encyclopedic tone and properly sourced." However, by demanding this of me, I wanted to see if he/she held himself/herself to the same standard. And so I looked through the history of the Cowboy page....back to Montanabw's earliest edits. I noted that, for example, his/her edit on Jan. 19, 2007 failed all the demands he/she was now requiring of me. In fact, for an entire new section he/she created, he only used one source...and only cited it once over eight paragraphs. The source? The American Heritage Dictionary. Yet, despite Montanabw's lack of finesse at the time, his/her entire section was never reverted. And he/she improved this page for the simple fact that he/she edited the page several hundred times over the last 10 years...so, now it's better. So, there's concrete proof that Montanabw is holding me to a different standard than he/she held for himself/herself.
Lastly, is the level of scrutiny I'm experiencing normal? I can't imagine every edit is picked apart and given such impossible metrics to remain up. I mean...41 million Wiki articles. I just can't see this. I've fought for this because I think it's important, but can imagine many others likely walking away in frustration (which has likely happened countless times). But I'll do my best to stick around. I just hope you all will keep my experience in mind when it comes to other edits, on similar topics, in the future. Because, as volunteers for Wiki, you're not just editing for the site...but you really do have the power to shape public knowledge. Please don't be flippant with that, especially when it comes to editors who work hard to add knowledge that has previously, and purposely, been left out of the public sphere. Thanks again for all your help and correspondence. Justbean ( talk) 15:19, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Mandruss You've already berated and sideswiped me. We both know I'm not that much of a novice to Wiki...a "Welcome?" I was looking for help with a complaint against someone I thought was an admin
because of this. I've never sought to resolve a conflict...yet, your "Welcome" is treating me like I haven't made a single edit over 6 years. I may only know a little...but to just drop a "Welcome" into my talk page like that...that felt very was petty and insincere. And you know you didn't have to send that...you could have just left me alone. But, it's like you had to get the last word. So, ok...you got it.
Justbean (
talk)
10:15, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
TheGracefulSlick if you have time and/interest...please read this (specifically bullets 2, 3 and the bottom of 5). And if you care to know what led me to you... and your eyes are up for it... read this. For the record, taking criticism is what got me to this point. I made several edits, and took the advise of several editors. I have no problem with criticism...in fact, I get criticized all the time for work. Yet, I do believe in fairness and civility. That's what this is about. Thx Justbean ( talk) 10:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
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Thank you Justbean for your expansion and updating of Lynching of Roosevelt Townes and Robert McDaniels with useful references and new data. You've done excellent work! Jamesmcardle (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar |
Thanks for all of your work on building out the Springfield Race Riots page. Wrineha2 ( talk) 19:13, 24 October 2019 (UTC) |
Please don’t revert me anymore. You don’t know the rules of the Project and the MOS. If you want to follow your way anyway, before you can pass for the consensus of the project. -- Kasper2006 ( talk) 21:07, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
There is a manual of style adopted by the project on almost all the athletes' biographies. I linked it to you. Isn't it clear why you don't have to respect it? -- Kasper2006 ( talk) 21:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
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A fluffernutter is a sandwich! ( talk) 15:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Your moves have both been undone. These were in no way minor edits. In fact, one of the moves has already been undone once, and it has been discussed and rejected on the talk page. Meters ( talk) 18:42, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Laurdecl: thank you! I knew I didn't select "minor edit," so it was weird that he was railing on me. But, thanks to you, now I know...and will make a note of it going forward. Appreciate it!
Just a word of encouragement about your proposal on Tulsa race riot and the others. I was initially dubious but I now see it as a valid and very relevant complaint, and fixable. best -- -- Lockley ( talk) 19:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for initiating the proposed moves at Talk:Tulsa race riot. I'm sorry that you got so much flak about trying to improve the names of the articles.
I recommend that you read WP:TITLE, especially the section titled "Use commonly recognizable names" (shortcut: WP:COMMONNAME). A Wikipedia article about an event is most likely to be titled whatever the most common name for the event is, right or wrong.
If the names by which scholars refer to some of these "riots" are starting to change, citing a few reliable sources that demonstrate that would help you tremendously.
Also, as a few other editors have suggested, consider whether a single discussion about moving 16 articles is the best course of action. Except in its broad strokes, each one of the 16 "riots" had different features.
Please let me know if I can help you with this, or in a future project. Also, please consider drawing on the resources of WP:WikiProject African diaspora—we're not very active, but you don't know who may be knowledgeable about a subject you need assistance with. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 03:34, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello Justbean,
I didn't want to gum up the RM even more with irrelevant-to-that-move-request commentary, but for what it's worth... Believe it or not, I am trying to *help* your request succeed. Like I said, I personally think that many of these topics are accurately referred to as a massacre (barring a few that don't have "enough" deaths and are closer to a "murder", since massacre usually implies a high death toll). Unfortunately, the arguments you're providing so far aren't what Wikipedia expects. You might be right, but not for the reasons you are stating. I am trying to see if you have sources that are of the form that Wikipedia would like for a move like this.
So. To separate this issue from race riot vs. massacre for a moment - I want to talk about Wikipedia's default philosophy with regards to both knowledge and naming, just if you're curious where I and some of the other opposers are coming from. You said to me before: " If 99 people say the sky is purple, and one person says it’s blue, are we to misrepresent the color of the sky until the 99 are ready to acknowledge it?" Well.. yes. That is a *core* insight to how Wikipedia works: it is NOT about being right, merely reflecting others. There's something liberating about that: you don't have to be right, you don't have to figure things out yourself, and you don't have to get into an extended argument with someone about what is right. You merely have to reflect what sources do. Two articles that go into this in detail are Verifiability, not truth, and Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat. So... yeah. If everyone says the sky is purple, the sky is purple. If everyone is wrong, then Wikipedia doesn't need to be the leading edge of the spear; eventually people will start noticing, and Wikipedia can upgrade to "there is a controversy on the color of the sky," and perhaps later, "people now know the sky is blue, although people used to think it was purple." But that debate is done elsewhere, not on Wikipedia. The articles go into the wisdom of this policy, but think of it this way: if Wikipedia was attempting to decree what was really true from among 3 dissenting opinions, it could get into far more hot water. This is the kind of thing that sounds great when you're right and everyone else is wrong, but is terrible when you're right and one fringe proponent goes and says he's right though he's actually wrong, and then edits in Confederate propaganda to the Civil War article or some such. I know you said that your move request doesn't have anything to do with those other examples I offered (Byzantine Empire, Anti-Semitism), but trust me, it does.
Specifically for article titles, this is more of a "philosophy of language" question, but names are just that: names. It is entirely legitimate to *disagree* with a name yet acknowledge that other people call it that name, and even that some people would be confused and not know what you were talking about if you used your own preferred name. I said that "free ice cream day" was offensive, and you said it was offensive. Yes, that was the point. Sometimes names are offensively wrong but they are *still* the name used. It doesn't mean or change anything about the event.
Going back to your requested move... you're talking past some of the points other people make. You keep on raising sources about how horrible these events were and indicating they were a massacre. That's great! As far as the content of the article. It is not, however, an argument about the title. The title is not a statement about the content of the article. The title is what this topic is referred to in high-quality sources. It is NOT an assessment of the event. It is just a set of words, nothing more. The article could be titled "FSERJHSDFHDFSBJK". Do you see why I keep harping on things like introductory sentences? (And, to be clear, you can reasonably think this policy is stupid - that Wikipedia SHOULD just analyze the event and come up with its own name. But that isn't usually what's done.)
Let me stress that Wikipedia doesn't have to be biased, and if it is, it can be fixed. You are entirely free and encouraged to edit these articles, to add in sourced details that portray the inhumanity of these actions, and to make it very clear that "race riot" was only PR to make it seem like both sides were at fault. If you do this, I think your next move attempt will have a better attempt at succeeding. I do hope you don't get too annoyed at Wikipedia over this; suffice to say, policies like these are put in place for reasons that hopefully make at least some sense - there totally are plenty of "fringe" POV pushers who want to move all articles to their preferred term, and you wouldn't agree with most of them. (We could end up with "Vigilante justice on Negro Lawbreakers" or the like if we did.) SnowFire ( talk) 06:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Your addition to
Cowboy has been removed, as it appears to have added
copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of
permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read
Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be
blocked from editing.
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
13:08, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Justlettersandnumbers: thanks for your heads-up. Can you please tell me what I included that was copyrighted? I linked to images that are already files on Wiki. I cited my sources accordingly. I am trying to go by the book here, so I would appreciate any help. Thx. Justbean ( talk) 13:14, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
The source | Your text |
---|---|
White Americans seeking cheap land—and sometimes evading debt in the United States—began moving to the Spanish (and, later, Mexican) territory of Texas during the first half of the 19th century. Though the Mexican government opposed slavery, Americans brought slaves with them as they settled the frontier and established cotton farms and cattle ranches. | White Americans seeking cheap land—and sometimes evading debt in the United States—began moving to the Spanish (and, later, Mexican) territory of Texas during the first half of the 19th century. Though the Mexican government opposed slavery, Americans brought slaves with them as they settled the frontier and established cotton farms and cattle ranches. |
Alright @ Justlettersandnumbers:...just took another stab at it. Would you be kind enough to take a look and make sure it hits the mark? Thx! Justbean ( talk) 16:47, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
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Hello! Justbean,
you are invited to join other new editors and friendly hosts in the
Teahouse. It's a good place to meet people, ask questions and learn more about Wikipedia. Please give it a try!
Justlettersandnumbers (
talk)
15:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
|
Justlettersandnumbers Thank you!!!
Justbean (
talk)
16:13, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Justbean, I am sorry if it seemed I was saying that the deck was stacked against you. I did not mean to do that. I have often heard people complaining about text (or images) removed as copyright infringements, and in the vast majority of cases, when the person removing them was an experienced editor, as White Arabian Filly is, the content is in fact a copyright infringement. But expended editors can make mistakes, and I am more than ready to listen if you say that is what happened here. I note that in
one of your comments on this, you said that you had gone through the source "sentence by sentence" and reworded that. Please understand that doing that can result in a text where none of the words remain the same, but the sentence structure and paragaph struture are still identical to the source. As
Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing says: Close paraphrasing without in-text attribution may constitute
plagiarism, and when extensive (with or without in-text attribution) may also violate Wikipedia's
copyright policy, which forbids Wikipedia contributors from
copying material directly from other sources.
Public domain material must likewise be attributed to avoid plagiarism.
I am not saying this is what happened in this case, but it might have, and in any case you need to be aware that such close paraphrasing can be a problem here. (Note that it isn't always a problem. In text thas is a list of simple facts, arranged in an obvious order such as chronological or alphabetical, there is no US copyright under the
Feist decision. But that is not the situation here.)
DES
(talk)
DESiegel Contribs
19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
As to whether the content should be spun out into a separate article, perhaps Black cowboys, I have not carefully considered the details, and have no firm opinion. Often that is a good way to handle specialized content on Wikipedia -- in many other cases it is not the best way. As I understand it, cowboys historically were of varied ethnic and racial backgrounds: Mexican, Black, and Anglo and some others. All of these should be mentioned in the main article Cowboys. However if content about any one of these is so extensive that it overwhelms the others, that might be a case of undue weight, and be best handled with a summery and a link to a separate, more detailed, article. But I am not saying that this is the best way to handle this specific case. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
As to the page moves, i have read the comments on this page, but have not visited the articles in question. Do understand that there is a difference between an accurate description of an event, and its Common Name. Wikipedia normally uses the common name to title articles, but should include an accurate description within the article. For determining the common name, modern secondary reliable sources are most relevant. Historical sources are useful and may be essential for accurately recounting the event itself. Please do keep this distinction in mind. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
There is no bar at all to making large edits, but it can be easier for others to understand and deal with a series of smaller edits with individual summaries. When an edit is perceived to include significant copyright violations, the normal practice is to revert the entire edit, at once and without discussion, but with an explanation of the reason. It is not allowed to stay in place while it is being revised, nor does the reverting editor usually try to sort through what was and was not a violation in the course of a large edit. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a large place, with many complicated and non-obvious policies, guidelines, and customs. People tend to mention these as they come up, or as they think of relevant ones, rather than all at once. This can feel like a case of shifting goal posts, and be quite frustrating to newer editors. But most of these policies, guidelines, and customs has been put in place after discussion to solve problems as they arose. They can be changed, or set aside in particular cases. But people are often reluctant to do that. See Process is Important. DES (talk) DESiegel Contribs 19:45, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
(Just realized this was the incorrect source. I was mistaken. I apologize and retract it as an example.) Justbean ( talk) 12:20, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, DES, White Arabian Filly...just wanted to funnel this to one place, in hopes of wrapping it up.
White Arabian Filly, thank you for the response and clarification. But, let me explain why I was confused.
As Justlettersandnumbers initially pointed out, my first edit included some copyvio. However, it was a misunderstanding of the way things were presented on the page. Given "Cowboy" is a major page, my understanding was that reputable sources had been, more or less, copy-pasted and cited, as to minimize unsubstantiated opinion. Once I understood that this was not, in fact, the case, I changed my edit. When that edit was rejected, wholesale, confusion set in because 1) I didn't get any communication explaining the reasoning for the rejection and 2) I was at a loss as to how much liberty I should take when writing edits and 3) other editors suggested a myriad of reasons the edit may have been rejected (e.g. the edit was too "big" and wasn't "digestible," the edit "unbalances the coverage of the ethnic composition of American cowboys").
Naturally, this created a situation where it seemed as if my edit was being treated differently, not based on presentation, but on content...and that I would be put through hoops in order to have the edit accepted. However -- given a previous such experience on Wiki with an edit of similar content -- the thought I had was that, no matter what hoops I tried to get the edit through, the edit would always be rejected for "some" reason. I did not start out thinking this to be the case, as Justlettersandnumbers was correct to flag my initial edit. Yet, after changing the edit, and getting the edit rejected again (in its entirety), and hearing various reasons as to why the edit was "wrong" (which had nothing to do with copyvio)...it definitely seemed like things were headed in that direction. So, I do apologize for having that expectation, but hope you understand how/why that expectation developed.
So White Arabian Filly...if you'd be kind enough to let me know what your red flags are (e.g the entire edit, similarities with certain sources, etc.), I'd love to take a stab at the edit again.
Finally, I'm not a regular contributor, so my learning curve is still steep in some places. But when I do contribute, I want you to know that I take it seriously. And, from your willingness to communicate with me and help me out...I can tell that you all do too. And I sincerely appreciate your time, patience and your respectful willingness to help me. Justbean ( talk) 12:20, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, DES, White Arabian Filly. Hi all. I just wanted to thank you again and let you know that I took everyone's feedback to heart. I'm taking a chance and submitting a new edit. I tried really hard to cover everything, though I am not submitting in smaller chunks. This is one thing I decided to try, as the long edit provides context. The big do-over was really in making edits to the entirety of the Ethnicity section. Cullen328 pointed out that by only editing Black Cowboys, it "unbalances the coverage of the ethnic composition of American cowboys." While I think the balance of the ethnic composition is skewed toward white cowboys (as the "default"), and also find it an unfair burden to edit for ALL excluded minorities simply to include one, it was an issue that I wanted to take off the table. So, the new edit presents roughly ALL American cowboys...to the best of my current ability. The edits are meaty...meaty enough to be a springboard for each of their own pages (should someone else opt to write those), but lean enough to warrant their inclusion on a page about American cowboys. This was a big and sincere effort, so I really hope it sticks...and I can finally smoke that cigar! I haven't submitted it yet, but would appreciate hearing from one of you first. When I hear from you, I'll post it...and if one of you would be kind enough to look it over and give me a heads-up -- if you think I should take it down and retool my strategy -- that'd be awesome. So, hopefully I'll hear from one of you soon. If not...I'll just go all in and hope for the best. Regardless...thanks! Justbean ( talk) 21:53, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, Cullen328, DESiegel, and White Arabian Filly...
Hi all...you likely thought you were through with me, but alas...the goalpost keeps moving. After spending hours on research, inclusive of finding photos to include in WikiCommons, (User:Montanabw) reverted ALL my edits...including edits I didn't even make. For example, Montanabw wiped out the ENTIRE homosexual section, which was there before I even edited it...I simply added to it and provided more context. Montanabw's reasoning..."Remove a lot of changes that are not supported by appropriate source material." Sorry, but that's completely not true. This was researched to death. And there seems to be no one I can go to that will call this out.
No matter what I edit, if it's an accurate historical repression, involving race/gender/sexuality, the edit is always revered for "some" reason. I mean..."appropriate source material?" There was nothing wrong with my source material and everything I wrote was supported by it. This has nothing to do with the way I submitted content on Wiki, but has everything to do about the content itself. I think we all know that this is not about presentation...but perspective.
Montanabw proudly boasts about being from Montana and owning horses ( /info/en/?search=User:Montanabw), and I find it hard to believe that his/her perspective did not affect his/her motivation for removing every edit that did not fit into a particular worldview. My edit was accurate –– historically and grammatically. I even used sources that had been cited in other parts of the page. Yet...Montanabw wiped out EVERYTHING –– even edits to the "Cowgirls" section –– that, through accuracy, does not reflect a particular worldview of a "cowboy." My edit was no different than any other edit on the rest of the page...in fact, I'd be happy to put my research and writing up against any other edit that was on the page.
My edits, constantly facing these kind of arbitrary obstacles that are impossible to get around, is flat-out wrong. It goes against everything I've seen regarding Wiki rules. It is also wrong that someone, with an apparent agenda, has the authority to use Wiki to perpetuate inaccurate historical biases. I made an edit to do my best to provide accurate info on ALL American cowboys. And, AGAIN, my ENTIRE edit was wiped out, without so much as a message to even explain why. An editor who had Wiki users' best interest in mind would have at least communicated with me before wiping out, what was obviously hours of work, and tons of new information on Cowboys. However, Montanabw seemed to wipe out everything he/she politically disagreed with, gave some illogical 13-word arbitrary reason for doing so, and moved on. So, beyond being wrong for doing this, it's also dangerous...given that the general public uses Wiki as a source of info.
So, can one of you help me address this? Seriously, what do I do...where do I go from here? Thx Justbean ( talk) 21:37, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Cullen328, emphasizing words is the way I express myself at times. In this instance, I've emphasized points that do not make sense to me. If you assume my tone to be "indignant," that is your assumption. I haven't "conducted" myself in any manner beyond being confused. I've been genuine about my confusion with Wiki, especially given that, twice now, when making edits that have racial components, I receive conflicting and impossible-to-achieve advice. I can point to numerous instances on Wiki where other editors are not treated in the same manner. That is what I am emphasizing –– confusion at the difference in treatment.
I know, and respect, that Wiki is collaborative. However, twice now, on edits I've made that have had racial components, my collaborative effort has been shut down and given a revolving door of responses as to why. In other words, there is nothing I can do to satisfy all the editors' suggestions.
In pointing out that Montanabw's action seemed like he/she had a perspective agenda, I was merely pointing to Wiki's own admission that this collaborative project does, in fact, have a bias problem, inclusive of a Wiki racial bias. To sum up Wiki's recognition of this:
So, about 9/10 Wiki editors are of the same racial and gender background, which cultivates bias. That's simply a fact, recognized and stated by Wiki. And to imply that I'm somehow over-reacting by pointing out that it seems that my edit is being scrutinized by such a biased perspective, further accentuates that fact.
Finally, while it's great that you had a great personal experience with Montanabw, yours is only one. Wiki has 70,000 active contributors working on more than 41 million articles in 294 languages (about 12% of the articles are in English). So saying that Montanabw is Wiki's "best and most productive editor on equine topics," only shows your own bias in his/her favor. Furthermore, while Montanabw may have expertise in equine topics, my edit wasn't on horses, but on cowboys –– people. So while Montanabw may know plenty to be an authority on pages about mules, that in no way qualifies him/her to be an authority on the accuracy of information about minority, female, or gay cowboys. Justbean ( talk) 06:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers, Cullen328, DESiegel, and White Arabian Filly...
While I don't expect to hear from any of you further, I did want to record this with you because you've kind of seen my effort at this edit...and because it's important that people know/understand that my concerns aren't just me "over-reacting."
To add on to the litany of revolving things my edit always seems to violate, Montanabw now said I committed an "unspecified infraction." Initially he/she said he/she reverted my edit to "Remove a lot of changes that are not supported by appropriate source material." Then he/she said, "Discussion is appropriate." Then, he/she surmised that "There is a lot of nonsense about cowboys out there and a lot of bad sources. This article is in need of careful development and accurate sourcing." Then, he/she accused me of copyvio. And then, in two paragraphs on the Talk page, he/she listed off a myriad of "other" things I supposedly violated.....including several of my edits not being "very good." However, this smacks in the face of logic given that, if I was guilty of these things, at least a few of them would have been flagged by any of you.
I took the time to go through and address each one of his/her accusations last night, on the Talk page. Especially since Montanabw demanded that my edits would be accepted if they were "reasonably decent, tight, well-written, encyclopedic tone and properly sourced." However, by demanding this of me, I wanted to see if he/she held himself/herself to the same standard. And so I looked through the history of the Cowboy page....back to Montanabw's earliest edits. I noted that, for example, his/her edit on Jan. 19, 2007 failed all the demands he/she was now requiring of me. In fact, for an entire new section he/she created, he only used one source...and only cited it once over eight paragraphs. The source? The American Heritage Dictionary. Yet, despite Montanabw's lack of finesse at the time, his/her entire section was never reverted. And he/she improved this page for the simple fact that he/she edited the page several hundred times over the last 10 years...so, now it's better. So, there's concrete proof that Montanabw is holding me to a different standard than he/she held for himself/herself.
Lastly, is the level of scrutiny I'm experiencing normal? I can't imagine every edit is picked apart and given such impossible metrics to remain up. I mean...41 million Wiki articles. I just can't see this. I've fought for this because I think it's important, but can imagine many others likely walking away in frustration (which has likely happened countless times). But I'll do my best to stick around. I just hope you all will keep my experience in mind when it comes to other edits, on similar topics, in the future. Because, as volunteers for Wiki, you're not just editing for the site...but you really do have the power to shape public knowledge. Please don't be flippant with that, especially when it comes to editors who work hard to add knowledge that has previously, and purposely, been left out of the public sphere. Thanks again for all your help and correspondence. Justbean ( talk) 15:19, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Mandruss You've already berated and sideswiped me. We both know I'm not that much of a novice to Wiki...a "Welcome?" I was looking for help with a complaint against someone I thought was an admin
because of this. I've never sought to resolve a conflict...yet, your "Welcome" is treating me like I haven't made a single edit over 6 years. I may only know a little...but to just drop a "Welcome" into my talk page like that...that felt very was petty and insincere. And you know you didn't have to send that...you could have just left me alone. But, it's like you had to get the last word. So, ok...you got it.
Justbean (
talk)
10:15, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
TheGracefulSlick if you have time and/interest...please read this (specifically bullets 2, 3 and the bottom of 5). And if you care to know what led me to you... and your eyes are up for it... read this. For the record, taking criticism is what got me to this point. I made several edits, and took the advise of several editors. I have no problem with criticism...in fact, I get criticized all the time for work. Yet, I do believe in fairness and civility. That's what this is about. Thx Justbean ( talk) 10:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
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Thank you Justbean for your expansion and updating of Lynching of Roosevelt Townes and Robert McDaniels with useful references and new data. You've done excellent work! Jamesmcardle (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
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The Original Barnstar |
Thanks for all of your work on building out the Springfield Race Riots page. Wrineha2 ( talk) 19:13, 24 October 2019 (UTC) |
Please don’t revert me anymore. You don’t know the rules of the Project and the MOS. If you want to follow your way anyway, before you can pass for the consensus of the project. -- Kasper2006 ( talk) 21:07, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
There is a manual of style adopted by the project on almost all the athletes' biographies. I linked it to you. Isn't it clear why you don't have to respect it? -- Kasper2006 ( talk) 21:22, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
In response to your request for arbitration of this issue, the Arbitration Committee has agreed that arbitration is not required at this stage. Arbitration on Wikipedia is a lengthy, complicated process that involves the unilateral adjudication of a dispute by an elected committee. Although the Committee's decisions can be useful to certain disputes, in many cases the actual process of arbitration is unenjoyable and time-consuming. Moreover, for most disputes the community maintains an effective set of mechanisms for reaching a compromise or resolving a grievance.
Disputes among editors regarding the content of an article should use structured discussion on the talk page between the disputing editors. However, requests for comment, third opinions and other venues are available if discussion alone does not yield a consensus. The dispute resolution noticeboard also exists as a method of resolving content disputes that aren't easily resolved with talk page discussion.
In all cases, you should review Wikipedia:Dispute resolution to learn more about resolving disputes on Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia community has many venues for resolving disputes and grievances, and it is important to explore them instead of requesting arbitration in the first instance. For more information on the process of arbitration, please see the Arbitration Policy and the Guide to Arbitration. I hope this advice is useful, and please do not hesitate to contact a member of the community if you have more questions. Moneytrees🏝️ Talk/ CCI guide 23:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
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