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I would be reluctant to give any clue to my RL identity, for my own personal reasons. To be frank people don't need qualifications to regurgitate fact which is all we do here. Remember "own research" is not permitted. Even if it were announced at the top of the page that it had been written by the world's most eminent professor, there is nothing to stop another less exalted editor another paragraph - that is how wikipedia works. People using bogus credentials happens all the time in real life in hospitals, schools and multi-national companies. Sooner or later Citizendum and other similar projects will have their own identical scandals - the very nature of the internet and human behaviour creates them, and unless people are going to post their passports, identity papers and utility bills on their user pages (which will never happen) - these things will be repeated. So like it or lump it we have to get real and get over it. Posting or having qualifications in itself is a minefield? - which university granted the degree, which country was the university in? Can we rely on the student from The University of Ruritania? Whatever we decide, the dedicated imposter will always find a way in. We could demand however as Daniel Bryant suggests known true identity for checkusers and those who publicly represent and speak for wikipedia - sort of give certain editors an accredited press badge. Giano 09:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What Daniel.Bryant said is what I meant exactly. -- Meno25 10:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Daniel Bryant and Giano on this one. If anyone is in a higher position above editor (admin and up), they should be expected to provide (privately) their credentials (if they choose to post them on their userpages) to Jimbo or the foundation. I believe it is important that editors do all they can to not post their personal information anywhere on the web. As Giano has stated, we simply use referenced work anyway, so our expertise is defined by our ability to research and cite our references.-- MONGO 10:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
And what happens if they don't claim anything. People who respect their privacy and refused to reveal anything? Will they be able to have higher positions, Checkuser, Oversight, on Wiki? (Sorry if I sound harsh) -- K.Z Talk • Vandal • Contrib 10:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What we shouldn't have is a replication of Citizendium, where everyone has to prove their expertise/training/credentials. I would probably leave Wikipedia if that were to happen. In reevaluation, might I suggest that checkuser/oversight/arbcom and "approved" spokespersons have their personal details filed in private with the Foundation. We can't stop editors from speaking to the press and we shouldn't, but we can definitely ensure that anyone acting in an official capacity has proof of their achievements on record.-- MONGO 11:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Is the idea to require any claims of credentials to be verified? Or is it simply to allow credentials to be verified, if an editor wishes? The latter seems more workable, and more in line with privacy concerns. Right now, people have the easy privacy cop-out that Essjay took, if their credential claims are questioned. A voluntary system removes that as a reasonable evasion. You can prove to the Foundation that you are legit, without revealing your real identity to Wikipedia as a whole. I don't really see a downside, as all it does is remove camoflouge for fraud. I suppose however that one might prefer to allow generic suspicions of fraud, if one is opposed to credentials being used at all. I think the singular focus on admins and such is misplaced, most of the world isn't going to particularly care about that distinction because admins don't do most of the editing. Derex 23:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I do think that the important thing is that people who are held out as having authority be - well, not saints who are beyond all possible reproach (none of us are that) but certainly people who are at least bona fide. Hence my support for the proposals that I have made, or supported, here about some kind of confidentially-maintained register of personal details for people beyond a certain level of Wiki-authority. I tend to think, at the moment, that the way to go with the credentials thing is to insist that credentials don't count and to deprecate their use. Accordingly, I have just removed references to real-world credentials/experience from my userpage - not because they were inaccurate but because I now think that having them there is a bad idea, and trying to pull rank based on expertise or real-world experience is likewise a bad idea. I'm not even saying I've never yielded to the temptation to do that in the past - the record would show me up if I said that - but I'll make efforts to resist the temptation in the future. Sometimes real-life things about oneself have to be mentioned or hinted at (e.g. for disclaimers), but I think that a credential-vetting system is probably not the way to go, and anyway until such a time as we do go down that path we should all be reluctant to say much at all about any special expertise we might have. Metamagician3000 01:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a positive step to have you acknowledged in direct terms that this was a scandal. Thank you. — Doug Bell talk 09:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
It was a scandal. And I have apologized for my role in it. I made several mistakes of judgment at various points along the way, and I am very much in favor of reforming our processes so that we are not so vulnerable. I am spending a lot of time reflecting carefully on my role here. The primary mistake that I made is one that I have trouble condemning myself for, because I think that one of my personality flaws is actually a strength for Wikipedia: a willingness to trust people and assume good faith even in difficult times. That caused me to wrongly minimize the importance of this, and to make bad decisions for a time. I am very sorry for that, and the only solution I know of is to work for positive change.-- Jimbo Wales 11:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As I see it Essjay has gone off into the wilderness with a lot of well deserved condemnation ringing in his ears, inspired by copious amonts of righteous anger and not a small amount of schadenfreude. Essjay regrets it, we regret it. It happened, it is over. It is time to stop the autopsy and the "mea culpas" - hindsight is a wonderous thing, and none of us have it. It is going to happen here and to all similar projects again at some time in the future - that is unavoidable by the laws of human nature. If that Citizendum man does not realise that then he is bigger fool, than some of us probably feel right now. Time now to move on and endevour to prevent it happening so easily again, and join the conversation instigated by Jimbo above. Giano 12:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
We have to keep in mind that nobody is really interested in the dirt here. What really draws their interest is the grandness of this NPOV vision of describing accurately the paths of civilization in attempting to bring men to be human. Now there is a lot of conflict in exactly what human civilization is, and that conflict is what brings them all here. Nobody is really interested in whatever small deception there is in Essjay playing out that nice role he wrote for himself in his life. It would make a delightful short movie--not much of a deception at all. However, when that small deception appears against the background of this huge NPOV project and mission of capturing in print the truth of all of man's striving since the beginning of time--that deception, though small, will drive men mad. So we have to keep all of this in perspective. While it may good for us all to ask forgivenesses for our "small deceptions" and oversights, let us not forget that the only reason that our detractors' animal passions blow this series of events completely out-of-proportion is because of the grandness of this NPOV mission and dream of making all that is known available in one accurate Wikipedia available free-to-all. That is huge, and it is that hugeness of enterprise and possibility that brings even the detractors to these pages. So we have to kind of calm everybody down and keep our sense of proportion. This mission is huge, let us admit. -- Rednblu 12:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course, I have found my questions from ten hours ago--not personal attacks, not trolling, but perfectly honest questions--buried in the archive. We'll all draw our own conclusions and as I said, I'm done. -- Larry Sanger 14:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think Jimbo deserves sole responsibility here: if some of the issues that emerged in the last week had been known earlier on then the community would have dealt with the issue without such fuss. It had been my belief that serious misrepresentations usually get weeded out at the RFA level. Once I saw the relevant diffs, Essjay's fiction was apparent: he demonstrated the spelling and punctuation mistakes of an undergraduate rather than the prose of a professor and Catholicism for Dummies isn't the type of source a Ph.D. normally cites. Someone who knew his contribution history could have made a strong circumstantial case to challenge his CV, either during a formal nomination or at RFC. A few step forward now to say it was obvious...well, what seemed obvious to me (and I suppose to many others) is that an administrator, bureaucrat, etc. probably had told the truth all along or he wouldn't have attained those positions of trust. As I stated in my first comment on this scandal, if any other administrators have padded their credentials I hope they come clean now. Durova Charge! 15:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we get back to constructive discussion of how/whether to vet credentials (if we are going to do that, which doesn't seem like a priority to me ... but that's just me) and/or how/whether to vet the bona fides of people in (or seeking) positions of trust? Endless slagging off at Jimbo gets us nowhere, and he's not only apologised for making misjudgments but also made an attempt to consult with us constructively. For God's sake let's concentrate on taking him up on that. Metamagician3000 22:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Just as the New York Times is rather complimentary about our "transparency" and efforts to resolve this issue through discussion, all evidence of this incident is being deleted. If anyone were to look today, there would be no RFC about Essjay, no letter from Essjay to "other" professors, no talk archives about other users trying to talk to him about the situation, and no article about "Essjay". If this continues, the next article in the Times is going to be titled "Wikipedia attempts to cover up scandal", and as we have all just learned, sometimes the cover up is worse than the crime.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.150.34.235 ( talk • contribs)
Some of us expected this and archived some things with webcitation.org:
74.225.21.234 19:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This has been pretty much brushed off for weeks since it first turned up and Daniel Brandt kept pestering Essjay about it on his talk page, only to have his comments deleted. Brandt's got his issues, but this probably could have been preempted if people weren't so quick to dismiss all outside criticism as illegitimate and the work of trolls and vandals. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 14:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
First let me make crystal clear: I have no axe to grind against Essjay. I knew and admired him mostly through his reputation and had only very limited direct interaction with him. Until a few days ago, that's all there was.
I was deeply disturbed by his long-term deception, the black eye he gave the project via the New Yorker article, and the seemingly cavalier attitude regarding all this from you. Because of my strong feelings that without accountability on this issue that I could not continue at the project, I have spent a great deal of effort over the last several days trying to focus discussion on what I believe are the core issues at stake. I have done this knowing that such heavy involvement might earn me the wrath of many of the long-time and key contributors here who counted Essjay among their friends. I've done this despite many direct and indirect accusations of being part of "a mob", "a lynching", or simply someone motivated to "kick someone while they were down". Nothing could be further from the truth. My motivation was to help rescue the project from a wound inflicted by one of our best contributors.
It has been a difficult and unpleasant process, and one likely to have cost me much goodwill from many of the others here that hold similar positions of high trust as Essjay did. I accept that cost if it helps the project because really for me the only alternative was to leave.
Now it seems that this process of community discussion and evaluation is being replaced by out-of-process attempts to, as put above, sweep much of this under the rug. I can think of nothing at this point that will harm the project more than that. David Gerard's deletion of the most orderly and constructive discussion on this is perhaps the last straw for me. I am reluctant to give up the fight for the project, as I have seen that most people here understand the absolute need for accountability despite the personal pain involved. However, I am becoming exhausted with the effort required to continue against the emotionally-driven efforts of many people here—and many from the innermost circles of the project hierarchy—to undo the painfully achieved progress on vetting and moving forward. It makes me sad, and it has exhausted my energy for the moment to continue to fight for the dignity of the project.
For now, I'm stepping back and hoping that others will save the project from itself. I hope to return soon, but it depends on whether the project has the strength to complete the process recently praised in the New York Times article. Sorry if this all sounds melodramatic, but I believe this to be a defining point for the project. You have stepped forward and that gives me great hope in the leadership, but for now I wait to see how this plays out. Your skills at moving the community forward constructively are needed now as much as ever before.
— Doug Bell talk 17:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As a new editor, using my real name from the beginning; albeit an accused "sock puppeteer," I have seen first hand what can come from a misguided "checkuser" system and I have also been disappointed, having seen thousands of meaningful items of knowledge deleted by individuals seeking to create their own encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia for "the people."
I have said this beautiful creation called Wikipedia, should be "the source," of all information...for us, and our children. "THE SOURCE," that does more additions than subtractions; a source with verified proof of facts and the integrity to show it.
By using our real names, ages, and our verifiable credentials, we truly share our experience, strengths, and hope...for our future here.
I suspect without the above, we have many/all of the elements that make "MySpace" a giant machine, however, we are all left without any form of verifiable truth to help substantiate any valid concept or theory ...that we are truly adding value and/or knowledge to our world.
Finally, as a dad, I want my children to use this miracle, with confidence, that someone with verifiable credentials is responsible for reviewing and correcting any lack of verifiable truth, herein.
Thank you for your time, Lee Nysted 18:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment by Nysted:
All people of authority and especially "police" type authority figures like administrators, must be required to provide full disclosure of name, age, credentials, life experience, etc. It is unconscionable, what some of the administrators are getting away with, here. Gangs? Yes. MySpace gangs? Yes. Full disclosure of who is capable of taking my rights away, or taking away the rights of my family members should be known to all. Without a trusted governing body, there will be a system-wide failure. It could cost us the entire enterprise. This is the most serious breach of confidence this place has seen, but it will get far worse, if not checked, here and now. Lee Nysted 03:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it might help if you could please advise why you apparently allowed Essjay to keep false information on his Wikipedia page after he advised you it was false. Why would you not have instructed him to immediately correct or remove it?
I am relying on Essjay's talk page description of the events(as linked to by Wikinews) so if that is not accurate,please let us know.To just let that information sit as it is gives rise to assumptions of cavalierness about the matter which are likely wrongful assumptions, so please help clear that up if you don't mind.
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/essjay.html 67.71.123.134 20:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
---
Good question! But apparently there is no way to answer that question--because the questioner cannot be interested in the question as asked. The questioner is interested in that question only against the backdrop of the huge task of building an accurate NPOV encyclopedia. And no doubt the questioner asks that question in good faith; I must admit that I ask that same question in good faith. But realistically, the questioner, even I, would never go around asking that kind of question--unless of someone involved in some huge monumental historic task like building an accurate NPOV encyclopedia. So no answer to that question or its variants would ever satisfy. -- Rednblu 21:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
While Jimbo's current idea is designed to increase Wikipedia's credibility by focusing on editors, he had another idea a while back to help credibility by focusing on articles. He outlined it in an interview in this article. Basically, it would create 2 versions of pages that reach a threshold of stability, a stable and a live version. The stable version would be shown and the live version would be available to edit. Edits to the live version would have to be approved in some way before they are added to the stable version. My question is: Is this still in the works or has this been pushed to the wayside by other ideas? Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Wales also plans to introduce a 'stable' version of each entry. Once an article reaches a specific quality threshold it will be tagged as stable. Further edits will be made to a separate 'live' version that would replace the stable version when deemed to be a significant improvement. One method for determining that threshold, where users rate article quality, will be trialled early next year.
Hi Jimbo,
Because of concerns that user:Essjay used false credentials while editing (or influence the editing) of many articles, I have used Interiot's edit counter to see which articles Essjay edited the most. It is a monumental task to attempt to check all of Essjay's 16,000 edits, but there are only three articles which he edited more than 10 times. I am attempting clean-up, de-POV, and fact-checking of these articles, but am experiencing some resistance from users who feel that "any clearly erroneous edits from two years ago would have long since been found and corrected" and "what exactly is the problem?" However, research indicates these edits are still in the article, and that Essjay or his supporters did use his false credentials to stave off edit disputes. The three articles in question are Roman Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Louisville and Cathedral of the Assumption in Louisville. All other articles were edited less than 10 times by Essjay.
Wikipedia requires vigorous fact-checking to maintain its credibility; however, I feel like I'm coming up against a stone wall. I've had to explain my reasons for fact checking (which seems ironic), and have been characterized as "vindictive" and pursuing "ad hominem assaults". Thse comments sadden me, as Essjay was the 'crat who promoted me to Admin. I know that you want what's best for the encyclopedia, which to me means double-checking the facts submitted by an editor (any editor, but certainly one who now has credibility issues).
Please support me in reviewing this material. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
With respect, in light of the Essjay fiasco I would like to suggest new standards for Administrators, both for the Admin's now working and future Admin's.
What we need at Wikipedia are REAL standards for Administrators, such as resumes, real names and reference checks...who knows who these people REALLY are ? upstanding citizens? criminals? unemployed druggies? liars like Essjay? there obviously needs to be a NEW set of standards...
Lest Wikipedia end up on the Citizendium blog again:
Yours very truly,
Headphonos 00:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with this for admins. This seems like far too much work to justify it (background checks for every RfA?). However, for higher authorities: ArbCom, Oversight, and especially CheckUser (access to personal info) I think this could be a good idea. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 00:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Please don't take this as a legal opinion or as legal advice, but Wikimedia's privacy policy appears to be silent on this issue. As for your point "b," I'm pretty sure that all current bureaucrats are also admins; ditto for stewards, ArbCom members, and those with checkuser and oversight privileges. The only people in a position of trust at Wikipedia who are not also admins are some of the developers. In any event, all of these people should be held to the minimum standards that apply to admins. // Internet Esquire 02:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The Privacy policy does not indicate anywhere that I need to give my mailing address to the Wikimedia Foundation. I will not do so, unless an employee of the Foundation requests it, and I know exactly what is going to be done to that information, where it is going to be stored, and how it is going to be protected. I will not provide it to OTRS volunteers, or any other on-wiki functionaries, and I'm sure others will refuse to do so as well, as you're talking about information that is considered sacrosanct by many users here. In fact, the whole desire to have a shroud of privacy is the whole reason this incident occurred. Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 02:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Very funny. Now, how about something that actually solves the issue? Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 02:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorrry, Tito, but that's precisely the solution that I was looking for -- i.e., encouraging administrators who want to maintain their anonymous status to step down and become just another registered user. // Internet Esquire 02:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, there has to be a new standard at Wikipedia....next time it might not be just a liar...but worse...such as a child molestor who hurts a young editor or ??? Headphonos 03:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
And asking minors - who make up a number of our administrators - to reveal personally identifying information would help protect them from child molestors how? You know, I doubt even half of this stuff is really about making the encyclopaedia better. I hear axes grinding. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 03:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
People are suggesting that admins and others in "trusted positions" should give up their anononimity, but no one has really said what that would entail. I've seen everything from the modest (giving a name to the foundation) to the extreme (Background checking). What would the personal info be? Name? Credentials? Address? Phone number? And also, where would it go? A special page for admins? A userpage? The Foundation? As many others have said, anything besides the more modest proposals is an awful idea. I'm not an admin and I would like to be one eventually. However, if I had to post personal information about myself online first or give it to a possibly anonymous volunteer, I'd say you're crazy. In this age, we have to be careful not only of liars, but people who take advantage of honest folks. While I would give my name to a Foundation employee, I don't really see how that would help with the exception of a case like Essjay's where he was referred by the Foundation. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 23:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It's ok at MySpace, but not here.
Here is what Citizendium said about Wikipedia; this will only get worse.
"Of course, the moniker “Essjay” is obviously a pseudonym. But Essjay’s invented persona, as the New Yorker described it, or in other words his lies about being a different person, cannot be regarded as a pseudonym by anyone who knows what “pseudonym” means. A pseudonym, or pen name, is just a name, not an identity. Responsible publications that permit pseudonyms don’t permit misrepresentation of the actual qualifications of the person with the pseudonym. That would be a breach of the readers’ trust. That of course is why The New Yorker felt it had to apologize."
From: Citizendium Blog March 1, 2007
It is up to us, but the world will watch and vote while using articles about credibility issues here, and real live journalists will "unite." Lee Nysted 14:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Admins such as Essjay ran goon squads targeting, blocking, harassing, editors who knew too much. The checkuser system was handled by this fraud. Has anyone looked into whether this guy had any knowledge nor skill to verify sockpuppets. This proven fraudster was trusted with handling private info. When he lost some argument and risk being exposed, he would claim the opponent was trolling and get his goon squad to block/ban him. Essjay used irc (primarily) to communicate and scheme to bump off his opponents. In order to avoid radar and any potentially bad publicity, he got his loyal crew (which he presumably) had a hand in promoting to admins to do the 'dirty work.' One such member of his enforcement crew/goon squad is Steel359 (I am not sure if he/it is a sockpuppet Essjay). Efforts to delete his history is part and parcel of this group to hide their connection to this exposed fraudster. 74.112.107.145 02:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
That's the buddy system, working "as designed" from Wikipedia's dark MUD side. Gwen Gale 09:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, let's stay on track - otherwise, this could all become (more) chaotic. Metamagician3000 10:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) To respond to the IP, a couple of samples of my investigations are available at User:Durova/Complex vandalism at Joan of Arc and Wikipedia:Community_noticeboard/Archive3#Unblock_of_Thekohser.3F. Here's the diff of my block warning to a fellow admin. [7] I took quite a bit of heat for that post. I also founded Category:Eguor admins, which pledges to give an impartial hearing to editors who can prove they've been treated unfairly. See User talk:Cwiki for an example of an indef blocked account whose editing privileges I restored after the user's unblock request had been rejected. I've given evidence at a number of arbitration cases. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Midnight Syndicate is a representative example. Investigations at Wikipedia aren't a credentialed undertaking so I'll let my editing record speak for itself. I offered e-mail as an option in case you've been sitebanned or have worries about onsite retribution. If you choose to take up my offer of investigation onsite it would be a good idea to move this thread to my own user talk page. I'll extend this to Everyking and anyone else who wants this investigated. Now you've made some very serious allegations. WP:AGF constrains me to assume people have acted properly unless you demonstrate otherwise with good evidence. Are you going to back up your claims? Durova Charge! 16:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Durova, Isn't it possible to do checkuser from archived results from 2006 to pin down if Robbie31 and Essjay had same IP address. Chances the IP address will be the same and this is covered up by the fact that Essjay and Robbie31 are partner and live in the same home presumably. But then this has been referred to as the roomate excuse in sock puppet cases and carries little weight. So I can't see how you can conclude definitively that Robbie31 is not a sockpuppet of Essjay. But considering Essjay has lied on everything he has said and this proven beyond reasonable doubt now... that is the only predictable trend (plausible/simplest explanation) that he has lied regarding this matter as well. 74.112.107.145 04:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
You know, after I myself, as a new editor here, was first blocked for a bad reason by Essjay (who was not always, contrary to memoryhole-supported opinion here, a nice guy), I tracked him for some time, to see what kind of an odd duck he was. I watched him, among other things, casually threaten to de-sysop an admin for removing the "nominations open" tag from their userpage, because that would hurt Wikipedia's advertising space for that. I said to myself: "De-sysop somebody for THAT?? This dude has way too much power, and uses it too easily and childishly." But somehow, "learning" that Essjay was a professor of Canon Law at a major university calmed me down a little. If figured he must have some wisdom to attain such a position, and maybe was having a couple of bad days. So yes, his claimed credentials did work to protect him. But not in a way that has been mentioned here, up to now. S B H arris 20:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It also appear to be a deliberate means to confuse any reader, where Essjay writes this comment on Robbie31's talk page "Oh, and I'll go edit your CSS & JS pages so the display looks like the one on my comp, don't want you getting confused. ;-) -- Essjay · Talk 05:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC) " This implies Robbie31 appears to be using Essjay's computer or something but he claims to have done anonymous edits earlier. Robbie31 has only made 7 entries that can be accounte for. So why do this, because I think this comment is to cover for a potential slip up he (Essay) made somewhere. This conversation just doesn't make logical sense. Robbie31 supposedly knew how to make anonymous edits before, so why have to make the display same as Essjays's, in order to avoid being confused [12] ? Confused of what ? He was doing just fine doing anonymous edits before. Hence there is clearly a big hole in the Robie31 persona. 74.112.107.145 04:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Er, SBHarris, Redwolf24 is not Essjay, and is a completely different administrator. Would you care to offer proof of your allegation that he is? pschemp | talk 03:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
We are now having a witch hunt? That's nice. Grace Note 04:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am a relatively new person who has experienced many attacks and accusations from Admins/Bureaucrats without explanation. Things go on behind the scenes and a person like me has to accept what they do on their say so - like being accused of Sockpuppet with no evidence or rationale offered. There are roving gangs. Something needs to change. I feel very bad today. I have a Ph.D. but don't edit articles having to do with my field. I don't think the credentialing idea is a good one. I know nothing about the individual involved except that his archiving bot is gone -- I was using it and it was wonderful. Sincerely, -- Mattisse 02:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that credentials will be hard to verify. I also agree that WP:V and WP:RS sources must out-weigh any claims to special knowledge. Wikipedia has taken a black eye in the media because the media didn't verify credentials as well they should have. We don't need to add a layer of complexity to our user page policy and administrative processes. We need only a disclaimer that appears automatically at the bottom of each user page stating that this is a user's page and that no claims made on this page have been verified by anyone for any purpose. Rklawton 04:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
In my humble opinion this is best approached overall by a deprecation of any claim to authority or academic credentials. If such a claim is made on a user page, I think it should be lightly verified but even so, claims to academic authority in edit disputes should be banned outright. For those in positions of trust (arbcomm and CU, spokesperson speaking for WP and so on) there should be a more rigorous, internal and confidential background check, as with any responsible org. Gwen Gale 08:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I think these guidelines are a great idea, but I would take it one step further: Don't post credentials at all. What's the point of having your credentials on your userpage? Having them posted serves no purpose other than as status. People just use credentials here to push their ideas on other editors: (example statement) "I've got a Master's in Biology. I'm right, you're wrong." Or, they use them to make themselves sound more reliable. Who's to say someone with only a high school diploma is less trustworthy/reliable/better than someone with a Ph.D. That's the allure that draws in new editors: Anyone can contribute, no matter their situation. People using credentials as status is why people leave. If we don't allow credentials, we wouldn't have to enforce the rule by checking them, we would enforce it by just removing it. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 23:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to preface my comments to this briefly: Although I've been a member of the English Wikipedia for some time now, I am by no means an expert in all things Wiki, nor do I claim to be. Secondly, the whole User:Essjay fiasco is rather new to me. Although I have been slightly following the issue (who hasn't?) I am again, by no means an expert. Feel free to poke holes in, puncture, ventilate, and/or mutilate my arguement as you see fit.
Now, I think that at the heart of this debate is the idea of credentials having weight on Wikipedia. And although I think Jimbo's plan to check credentials is a good one, I'm still confused as to why credentials have to carry weight. After all, if everyone can edit, it's to be assumed that some will be better editors than others, and likewise, some will be more knowledgable in a certain sector than another. So why do people have to whip out their credentials? Wikipedia is supposed to be peer edited, and in my opinion, it seems that by essentially "pulling rank" on another editor by using external credentials (degrees, carreers, etc.) said "more educated/better" editor is immediately setting themselves above their peers. And granted, I'm just a beginner, but it seems like that sort of pseudo-caste system is an anathema to what Wikipedia desires to be. Why not have a "No exterior credentials" policy?
Thanks for your input! Belril 05:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I just went and looked at Economics for less than 20 seconds. Under Areas of economics there are two specialties with subsections. Both are cited. The first is "Mesoconomics", I've never heard of at all (am a research professor). A search on Econlit, which indexes the abstracts of all scholarly journals related to economics and covers tens of thousands of articles, shows 3 uses of this term in refereed journals. The second is "Picoeconomics". Again, I've never heard of it. Econlit shows 0 hits in refereed journals.
Do you understand what this means? The Wikipedia article on economics highlights exactly two topics in the section "Areas of economics". They are cited. Between them, these two areas have 3 mentions in the journal abstracts. Now, I don't know how they got there, because I long ago lost patience editing in my field. But, it's an effing joke. No, pay no heed at all to people who might know what the hell they're talking about. And this is what you get. Pathetic. Derex 06:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
"I do know nothing about it." WAS 4.250 07:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Derex has just described what, for me, is the big motor for improvement in Wikipedia – someone noticing something wrong, which impels them to research it and make a well substantiated change. An impediment to that process is pov pushers who feel they know better or are trying to use the page to put over their position, and who would be the first to claim priority because of their credentials. It can be a struggle and undoubtedly off-putting to academics used to their authority carrying weight, but here authority must be based on verifiable sources clearly and fairly presented. The success of this project comes, in my opinion, from it being a forum open to all and not a hierarchy of academic rankings. Derex prefers to edit in other areas – should these edits then be discounted because of lack of qualifications? Many pages have problems, and we should be open about that – and fix problems we find. .. dave souza, talk 09:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
So what is the status of the "conflict of interest" policy? Where is it? Any definition of "interest" and when the interests might be in conflict, say between Wikipedia's (or Wikia's or Jimbo's) or your own?
I previously tried to demonstrate some contradictory examples of COI on this page, to ask the question. I was ignored by Mr. Wales, and the few comments made just added more COI questions and contradiction examples.
I think, though, that my questions may have been answered indirectly, not on this page. I think my comments were incorrectly attributed to another editor: Gregory Kohs, if memory serves without trying to look up the formal name of "MyWikiBiz". Later, in watching some of the discussions he was involved in, I noticed that we both happen to use the same method of addressing Mr. Wales. Guess we both grew up to use the polite and formal moniker, until invited to do so otherwise. And he ended up banned, and posters on this Talk page continue to get accused of being him trolling. There was another instance this from Friday or Saturday, somewhere in the Essjay discussion.
Since a person's credentials, by college degree or by experience, has a high probility of relating to what work they do and/or for whom they work (by industry, by employer, etc). IMHO, the issue of verifying credentials will inevitably interlace with the COI policy. So can only non-employees of USAA edit its articles? Good luck untwisting the COI policy with the "Anyone can edit" philosophy with some new credentials policy.
ood luck untwisting these policies.
It's too simplistic to assume that every editing dispute can be resolved through the application of WP:NPOV and WP:ATT. Derex has given an example, where the issue is the best way to organize an article. Is he supposed to be required to go out and find a reliable source for the proposition that an encyclopedia article on "Economics" should have the following subheadings? That just won't happen. Sources should be required for factual assertions, but editors have to use their judgment on how best to organize the article. If the editors discussing that question are all proceeding in good faith, some might well choose to defer to Derex's view based on his overall knowledge of the field. Jimbo's proposal doesn't require that they defer. It means only that, if they're willing to, and if Derex has chosen to go through the verification process, they could have confidence in his credentials.
I had a similar experience. A U.S. Supreme Court decision addressed one issue at length but rejected another argument in a single sentence. On that basis, a non-lawyer Wikipedian kept inserting in the article the statement that the ruling on the second point was made "without consideration of the legal merits". His stated rationale was that the Court had a duty to explain any decision it made. I said, based on my years of practicing law and on my having read hundreds of judicial decisions, that that's not the way it's done.
This was a tangential point (like the organization of the Economics article). The other editor wasn't urging that the article say something like, "It is a point of pride among U.S. judges to give a full analysis of every issue presented to them, and they generally do so." I wasn't trying to insert something like, "Because many lawyers toss in every argument they can think of, no matter how weak, courts frequently give little or no explanation for why they're rejecting a particular argument." Either of those statements, in an article about the U.S. judicial system, would have to be supported by a reliable source. I wasn't saying that Wikipedia should assert the second statement just on my say-so (even though it happens to be true). Instead, I was saying that, because the second statement is true, the other editor's presentation of this particular holding was misleading. Some Wikipedians might choose to give my argument more weight based on my professional credentials. That's a long way from making me a Citizendium-style Designated Expert who can overrule everyone else simply by waving around my degree. JamesMLane t c 10:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, we invented credentials for a reason, as a completely needed timesaver. You don't (and can't) demand legal citations of the cop who gives you an order to get out of the car, because there isn't TIME. But what you don't undrstand is that there is NEVER time for that to work, in all cases. In ANY system. No matter HOW long you run it, so long as it remains connected to continually evolving real world. There's never time enough for thorough review of all but a tiny fraction of experience. Until we find some way of all of us getting a whole hell of a lot smarter. S B H arris 19:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Although I don't think the issue of credentials is central to what we should be discussing I do sympathise with what James is saying here. Any profession or academic discipline teaches you how to "think like a lawyer" (or whatever it is), and you end up knowing many things the provenance of which is impossible to trace (as someone once put it in an arb case) and perhaps impossible to document even if you could trace it. It's really not as simple as you're suggesting in some of your comments, Gwen, and I've seen a lot of disputes here where this problem has been in the background. I very much doubt that we can find a simple way to solve it and I'm not at all sure it is the main problem we should be trying to solve arising from the Essjay thing. Metamagician3000 10:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
And here is where we are disadvantaged vis a vis an academic journal - if he were writing for a law review, all this would be tacitly understood. Metamagician3000 10:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
<-- meta-discussion --> The above discsusion of legal issues is an example of the role of credentials and experts. the law is one area where credentials matter, and are respected. We may give more attention to what JamesMLane says because he's known (or claims) to be an attorney, but even more because he brings decades of training, legal reasoning, and knowledge to the discussion. His statements have a value based on a combination of claimed credential and evident insight. Even if we were ignorant of the credential we'd still perceive the expertise. The importance of true credentials when discussing legal matters is so common that we have an acronymed disclaimer for it, "IANAL". Ironically, when lawyers do engage in specific legal discussions they'll often make it clear the topic is outside their specialty and so refuse to give an opinion ("I am a lawyer but that's not my field" - "IAALBTNMYF"). And if they do ever make an assertion about the law they'll most often give their reasoning, rather than simply claiming personal authority. That's one reason why good free legal advice is rare. One law expert did become famous for giving free advice on the Internet, only he turned out to be a 15-year old kid who'd never read a single law book. (Marcus Allen [15] [16]) Not that that has anything to do with this matter at all. Under no circumstances are the situations at all similar. - Will Beback · † · 08:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
One useful thing that verifying credentials would do, is to address the concern that comes up frequently on WP:RS and WP:ATT (formerly WP:V) about the use of primary sources. There is language there, to the effect that it's sometimes difficult to interpret primary sources and you need to be an expert in that field, etc etc. If we can see that user X is a Ph.D. in Particle Physics then when they describe the spin of the tau neutrino, we'd have a bit of faith that they know what they are talking about. Personally I would have no problem being verified myself in my fields of expertise. Wjhonson 07:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Gwen your implication that we only allow "research which has been peer-reviewed through verifiable secondary sources" is not actually what is policy. You might want to review current WP:ATT policy to assure yourself that we do and have for some time, allow primary sources to be quoted. And we have not for a long long time, required "peer-review" in the sense you are using it here. Wjhonson 23:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that Jimbo's statement above, which was an instruction as to where commenters here should focus their comments, reminds me somewhat of a common politician's ploy of deflecting attention away from one's own involvement in a bad situation.
While it might be useful at some point to soak up lots of attention and energy with discussions about the issue of credentialism (which has been an issue that for eternity has defied consensus..even back to the days Jesus,as a child, is reported to have "taught" in the synagogues), isn't now the time,and this talk page the place,(whether it's comfortable or not) to ask Jimbo about his involvement in the EssJay debacle? Has the community already decided that whatever Jimbo's involvement was is better left in the closet? If EssJay is to be believed, "Before I accepted the position, I provided all my real details to Angela and Jimbo, and immediately provided the same information to Brad Patrick;"
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/essjay.html
then isn't there a much bigger issue before this community? i.e. the level of honesty and integrity in play at the highest levels of authority on Wikipedia? Trustees,after all, are in a position of trust and that does not seem to me to fit well with EssJay's report that none of the 3 people he admitted his deceptions too advised him to immediately correct or delete those deceptions on his Wikipedia pages and,to the contrary, they went ahead and brought him into Wikia. I have concluded that Jimbo himself considered the deception not to be a big deal and yesterday's NYTimes report; "The New Yorker editors’ note ended with a defiant comment from Jimmy Wales, a founder of Wikipedia and the dominant force behind the site’s growth. 'I regard it as a pseudonym and I don’t really have a problem with it,' he said of Mr. Jordan’s alter ego." supports that conclusion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/technology/05wikipedia.html?ref=business
Notwithstanding Jimbo's statement of instruction above, I think this is the more important issue to be discussed right here and right now. 64.229.30.40 13:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
What about Jimbo's initial failure to act? It was a bad mistake, an error of judgment, I was wrong, and I have apologized for it and I apologize again here and now. I am not sure what else I can say about it. In my partial defense I can explain that I did not really understand the full scope of the deception, but even given that, I should have reacted sooner. In terms of what character flaw this might reveal about me, surely it is one which is already well known: I am a very trusting person who is very loyal to people who have done good things, even when this goes too far. I am on record many times stating that I am a "pathological optimist" and this is precisely the sort of thing I am talking about. I need other people in the community of a more skeptical and cautious bent, for sure. I try to listen, I try to learn, and in this case I made a mistake and I am sorry.
As to the blatant trolling of our anonymous friend, I really fail to see what he is talking about regarding some attempt to cover up or not examine my role in this. I think my role has been pretty clear and that I have been completely open about trying to apologize for my mistake here in not reacting sooner. The real answer is not to beat me up, although of course people can do that if they like (though likely, not more than I am beating myself up), but to think about how we can, as a community and in a scalable way that respects our openness and community values, find a way forward to help prevent this kind of thing in the future.-- Jimbo Wales 00:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
"....That will require an explanation of why you hired him and why you put him on ArbCom when you had to know he was a fraud.... --Larry Sanger 05:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)" [17] 64.229.29.154 04:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I wish to appeal an Arbitration case. The sub-page " Arbitration case appeal and irregularities" provides details -- Iantresman 14:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
A long time ago, Apple Computer came out with one of the first commercial hypertext products, named HyperCard. While the product was moderately successful, we didn't get massively scalable hypertext until the advent of the World Wide Web.
How is the Web different from earlier attempts at hypertext? There were basically two insights here, which would have been anathema to earlier proponents of hypertext systems. The first of these was to allow broken links. The second was to allow links to other machines, controlled by people you didn't even know, which might bring up almost anything when you followed them, even total crap.
Once you allow these two things, un-neat as they are, you have an extremely useful system which can scale to cover the entire planet.
Now, people unfamilar with the Web might choose to judge it with a yardstick which disparaged it based on how many Web pages contained inaccurate information, or how many links were broken, and suggest the way to "fix" the Web would be to enforce standards on it which only allowed verifiably accurate information, and required all links to point to information which actually existed and could be retrieved. Of course, if you did this, you'd be back to HyperCard, and have something much less useful.
A long time ago, someone invented a commercial encyclopedia product, named Britannica. While the product was moderately successful (not to mention overpriced), we didn't get a massive scalable encyclopedia which updated itself in real time and adapted almost instantly when new discoveries or breaking news occurred, until the advent of Wikipedia.
How is Wikipedia different from earlier attempts at encyclopedias? There are basically two insights here, which would have been anathema to earlier proponents of encyclopedia systems. First, rather than having all articles written by the greatest experts on the particular subjects, and taking years for any changes to propagate, you allow anyone to edit the encyclopedia, regardless of their qualifications. Second, you make the changes instantly visible, even if the articles are total crap.
Once you allow these two things, un-neat as they are, you have an extremely useful system which can scale to cover the entire planet, and serve as a repository of all the world's knowlege.
Now, people unfamiliar with Wikipedia might choose to judge it with a yardstick which disparaged it based on whether the people who wrote it had misrepresented their credentials, or how much of the information in it contained errors, and suggest that the way to "fix" Wikipedia would be to enforce standards which only permitted credentialed experts to have the last say in articles, and required all articles to be factually accurate. Of course, if you did this, you'd be back to Britannica.
I wonder if we're not making a big mistake by responding to the way the popular press is criticizing Wikipedia by proposing fundamental un-Wiki-like changes in the way contributors are vetted, and Wikipedia is run. I wonder if we aren't risking getting rid of those very things which make Wikipedia unique and special, and above all, useful and massively scalable. Hermitian 21:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Clay Shirky has some interesting comments in this (almost a year-old) column on Citizendium: [18]. Shirky's take (emphasis added by me):
Sanger is an incrementalist, and assumes that the current institutional framework for credentialling experts and giving them authority can largely be preserved in a process that is open and communally supported. The problem with incrementalism is that the very costs of being an institution, with the significant overhead of process, creates a U curve — it’s good to be a functioning hierarchy, and its good to be a functioning community with a core group, but most of the hybrids are less fit than either of the end points.
In other words, he claims that hybrid models are likely to work less well than either a highly open, egalitarian model (like Wikipedia) or an authoritative one (like traditional academia). Now, whether or not Shirky is correct is another matter--he write a well-read (by those who care about this stuff) blog and says lots of interesting things; and he's a researcher in the field; however his blog may or may not be a reliable source (it ain't peer reviewed, and it seldom references peer-reviewed literature). His bona fides can be found here [19]. -- EngineerScotty 00:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It is being covered in just minutes. C.m.jones 23:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
They just did a piece on television - on ABC Nightly News. C.m.jones 00:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see the piece, but perhaps Charles Matthews is User:Charles Matthews, who is a longtime Wikipedian and an arbitrator. Newyorkbrad 00:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Where he will most likely be charming, eloquent, and awesome, like he was here. That would be amazing for Wikipedia. -- Hojimachong talk 02:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Although different than the perspective of a legal scholar, we also may find it difficult to find a
WP:RS that some esoteric concept is crap
WP:BOLLOCKS. See the battles on
0.999...=1,
James Anderson,
Jonathan Bowers (now deleted), etc. It seems to me that an expert's opinion as to whether something is conventional mathematics/science/law may be almost impossible to
WP:Verify if the subject is only marginally
WP:Notable. We may need expert advice as to whether to remove something which is cited in fringe publications, and not discussed in mainstream publications. The basic concept of Wikipedia means that we cannot "publish" something which is not from
reliable sources, but we may refuse to publish something from marginally reliable sources if an expert reports it is "
not even wrong".
As an aside, in most sciences, we may need to make non-substantial changes in formulas from our references, as it's often the case that the references use more obscure notation than necessary. It takes an expert to verify that the changes aren't substantial.
As a further aside, my credentials including answering crank letters to the mathematics department at CalTech for one summer. (I don't think I can find a WP:RS for that, as there's little record kept of that sort of thing, especially since I usually signed replies "for the department", to avoid personal danger.)
So: I see a point for lightly verified credentials in some circumstances. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your comments, and I apologize if my lack of userpage has caused offense. -- Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 06:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
But I think it's really obnoxious and unbecoming of important people such as yourself to use language like "obnoxious" and "unbecoming" on fellow administrators, especially those that choose to be different! — Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 06:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
So why not make the homepage a redirect to your User talk:? It would serve the same purposes stated, it saves readers an extra click when heading to your User talk: page, and it avoids the double-take when they see the "This page has been deleted and protected to prevent re-creation" message. (on the more general point, I agree that User: pages are often just an interstitial when most visitors are probably wanting to head to your User talk: page instead) -- Interiot 23:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Jimbo Wales,
I am the original user of Rajsingam & DoDoBirds and shared the passwords with three of my friends as I am busy with my book "German Memories in Asia". As I have some problems over a few edits on Sri Lanka Conflict with them, I think one of them is posting various people which might damage my reputation.
I am not responsible these acts.
I apologize for my carelessness, which caused you, inconvenience.
My personal e-mail for more confirmation: <email removed to prevent spam>
Yours truly,
Rajkumar Kanagasingam 07:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Arcticdawg 10:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment on the "top of the charts" thing, by Nysted: Unremarkable it is, from my vantage point, the concept of having notable size on the internet, while lacking reliable sources of information about people in charge here; lacking proven credentials that are seen by consensus in the free world as essential elements for any reliable source of knowledge; somewhat lacking integrity (a kids on MySpace thing) and most surely lacking the respect of many truly notable academics, scholars, and members of the real press. Many things can be on "top of the charts" for a while. That does not make for "good" or "right." It just might be part of a lemmings race to the cliff. IMHO, The Wikipedia community reaction to this episode in history will help set the "benchmark" standard and tone by which this encyclopedia is judged, for many years to come. Lee Nysted 15:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Um, well, please sign my autograph page. :-D A•N•N•Afoxlov e r PLEASE SIGN, ANYONE!!! 14:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
[20].---- Doktor Who 16:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
If someone does something wrong, and someone points out that this is wrong, it isn't a personal attack. I am alarmed at the frequent attacks on those who are right to point out faults. It's bad for Wikipedia if we all we produce for fallen editors is effusive comments about missing them and how great they were, it does nothing to remedy the credibility of our encyclopedia, in fact it makes it worse: we don't acknowledge the problem. ( Bjorn Tipling 18:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
As for myself, my own credentials are 20 years United States Navy (retired), and working on my bachelors degree in history from Middle Tennessee State University, which I will finish by late 2008. I plan on going further than that. Carajou 18:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a minor dispute on Essjay controversy over by what process Essjay actually ended his association with us. Several news sources have quoted you as asking him "to resign", this blog has an email from you stating that you "fired" Essjay. A lawyer editor says that fired is too strong and legally impossible because you knew essjay had lied before you hired him. Can I ask you for a definitive judgement? Was Essjay asked to resign (which presumably leaves open the option to refuse), or was he fired? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Ultimately, this problem still falls on us, the average editor. As editors we got to do our best at making Wikipedia better. But there are still problems related to credibility that have to be resolved, and that has to be taken care of at an administrative level or higher. To that end, I would like to suggest the following:
The editors and junior adminstrators would ensure that each article is up to standards (standards include the quality of writing, grammar, and factual accuracy, among others) prior to being submitted to peer review, which is chaired by the senior editor. The department head has the authority to decide if the article has featured status. When the page is of the highest quality, it should be locked from further editing; the exeption being new information that has been submitted up the chain for review first. Carajou 20:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be that these suggestions are pretty much describing Citizendium. And Wikipedia will face all the problems that Citizendium will face, most especially lack of interest by people who don't want to act as someone else's butt monkey because they happen to have a degree - certainly I would leave if my edits could be reverted solely because some guy had faxed his off wiki credentials to the office. Wikipedia works because it harnesses the sheer workhours and goodwill of hundreds of thousands of people, with no sense of authority. If you start thinking you can organise these people into a disciplined series of departments, you will lose them, simple as and end of. End of Wikipedia. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Like it or not, there's that credibility problem with Wikipedia that's all over the news, and something is going to be done to solve it. Whatever it takes to solve it will be done amicably, or it will be done with a lot of hate and discontent, but it will happen. What I have suggested is certainly not set in stone, and it should be discussed along with other ideas; if any of it is no good, then we toss it aside and do something else. Carajou 02:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Here. RadioKirk ( u| t| c) 22:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, very famous Jimbo Wales! I was wondering if you would ban that bum user Tregoweth, indefinite? Cause he's horrid, he constantly yells & swears at me when I try to tell him the actual facts gets rid of everything I say & blocks me for the wrong reason. If you can get rid of him, my blocks & his protections to articles will expire & me, along with everyone else, can get be free to edit any article, do anything we want & his protections page will be free to edit for anyone. Skymac207 20:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone really wants you to sign her signature book. :-) -- Deskana (talk) (review me please) 01:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is an initial proposal for credential verification.-- Jimbo Wales 03:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it premature to formulate credential verification procedures when it has yet to be determined whether credentials should be presented or valued on Wikipedia? 70.48.206.78 14:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Jimbo Wales,
An editor is continuously vandalising my Bio over dispute related to Talk:Anton Balasingham. The editor tried hard to delete my Bio from wikipedia. You can see the evidence here(1) and here(2)' The editor is taking an undue interest over my Bio and deleted over Citation. I have restored the information. I requested an Administrator to check my Bio whether Citations are enough. Though I have off-line media archives(which are attached on Talk:Rajkumar Kanagasingam, I couldn't bring it to the articles. Now I am very much frustrated. Please help me on this matter. Rajkumar Kanagasingam 04:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Strictly from a feasibility perspective, without getting into desirability, I would urge great caution about any proposal for Wikipedia to certify certain contributers as experts. It's not a simple problem, and contrary to Jimbo's comments, I believe it is important to prepare for worst case situations. Indeed, the EssJay scandal is precisely that. The more reliance the outside world puts on our certification, the greater the temptation for someone to game our system and the more embarrassing a fraudulent certification becomes. I would suggest for now a simple variation of Jimbo's proposal. Those who wish to add outside credentials to their Wikipedia reputation should include a link on their user page to whatever site or sites they feel verifies their bona-fides (e.g. their home page at their place of employment), and add a link from that site back to their Wikipedia user page, or include a statement such as I sometimes edit Wikipedia under the user name "so and so". Other editors could then consider their claim of expertise and add what ever weight they deem appropriate. Most of us will do the right thing -- WP:AGF. My modification to Jimbo's proposal does not require any action on Wikipedia's part, beyond perhaps mentioning the dual link suggestion in some guideline. No new bureaucracy is required. At the very least, before we venture to create an expert certification mechanism, let's vet a few experts on the issues involved with building such a system,-- agr 02:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Jimbo: A debated MfD has been going on about autograph books in userspace. Many of the keep arguements refer to a quote you made about them. Could you please make a comment on the MfD regarding whether autograph books should be deleted? Thank you! Reywas92 Talk 15:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have been told you are not removable from the Wikipedia community. Please advise the process if you are. Your stonewalling of legitimate questions [21] asked by Larry Sanger, the creator of Wikipedia, is just one of several reasons I am asking you this question here on your talk page. It appears that the process for your removal is not known by anyone if such a process exists so I am hoping you are able and willing to share that information. 64.229.64.59 23:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, the simple answer is NO. Mistakes have been made here, and he is the right man for the job of guiding this ship through some rough waters. Just as Steve Jobs is the right man for Apple, Jimbo is the right guy at the tiller, here today. Lee Nysted 23:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's not conflate the questions on whether Jimmy Wales can be removed, and whether he should be removed. My guesstimate for the former is that perhaps he can be removed from his position at Wikimedia Foundation (and consequently Wikipedia) by the organization's board of governors or their equivalent. But I don't pretend to be an expert on the topic (no allusion intended!) and you'll have to read up the Florida state laws governing non-profit charitable organisations. As to the question of whether he should be removed, in my humble evaluation the answer of most wikipedians is obvious, but since that is not what you asked and I cannot back my opinion with reliable sources, I'll withhold further speculation. I would also request other editors to resist the temptation to address the unasked "should question. Regards. Abecedare 01:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to share a couple of brief paragraphs minus prying eyes.
Often, users do not know the approximate keywords let alone the specific search criteria in order to provide the results they need.
Failed at commercializing such a thing in 2000 because it was not about the money, it was about providing the best product possible and not being compromised by profit. Inadequate keyword search results as well as inappropriate content provided by WebCrawler, Ask Jeeves, AOL, and Lycos infuriated me.
Can we communicate by email?
Paradoxos 20:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I think any new policy that enforces any kind of credential checking is completely contrary to the fundamental “edit this page” philosophy of Wikipedia. Efforts should be made to verify the information added to Wikipedia rather than the credentials of the individuals who are adding the information. Perhaps, there should be an official policy of anonymity and not allowing any users to state any educational background…? If Wikipedia is all about accurate information and comprehensive reference citing, why should we even be discussing what degrees people have? Katalaveno T C 03:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The dishonesty and self-deception involved in thinking you're not relying on credentials when you cite some "outside" source, is breathtaking. Wake up. What this really means is that you won't believe some fact I as an editor give you about (say) anesthetic action in horses, but you would believe it if backed by a cite I gave you to a paper published J. Vet. Anesthesiology. Even if I wrote the paper I'm citing. But that only means I got THEM to believe me (partly based on my credentials) whereas I couldn't get YOU to believe me directly. To the extent that you've relied on the journal's fact-checking, you're relied on THEIR credibility. You see the problem? You claim credibility's worth nothing in factual debates, but you really use it all the time, in wikipedia's present policy. You're willing to trade and trust on the credibility of EVERY institution and person BUT the primary one in front of you, which is the wikipedia editor who asserts a fact. That's a big problem. There's nothing magic about the fact that a fact is published someplace out in the real world in some "reliable source," except that somebody's credentials out there are backing it. It's not the ink you're putting your trust in, it's somebody's CREDENTIALS. Don't you see? Wikipedia's already based on a tower of credentialism and credentialist thinking, then a layer of shifting sand. And you complain of elitism when I suggest taking away some of the sand. LOL. S B H arris 21:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Essjay claimed to have a doctorate but didn't, yet he traded on that claim in content disputes.
And that's why people are mad. right?
User:Mantanmoreland claims to be a 20-something Irish Catholic MBA candidate, and frequently trades on those bona fides when involved in content disputes relating to controversial busiess topics and anti-Semitism.
In reality, User:Mantanmoreland is a Jewish 50-something with a 30-year-old journalism degree. Is this situation worth getting upset about? -- Two Toed Sloth 07:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, are you able to attend a meetup in Adelaide when you are here in April? We thought we should try and have one then if you can make it. Other Australian Wikipedian's are also wondering about Meetups in their cities. Alex Sims 11:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Template:Linkimage has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Jeff G. 23:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a complaint about the un-Wiki attitude I found on Wikinews. I contribute a lot the Commons, and the English, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, German, French and Portugese Wikipedias. I take high-quality images of people, places and things wherever I go, but I mostly concentrate on those in New York City. Recently, when I photographed Angela Bassett and Courtney Vance I stood with the press, even though I didn't possess press credentials. The only project that offers such credentials is Wikinews. So I asked here if they'd issue credentials, offered to get photographs for news stories they are working on, and was met either with commendations but a "prove yourself" attitude, or in the case of one user, a flippant, "I cast you aside with the rest of the hordes" response. This mentality seems to be completely against what the Wikimedia Foundation stands for. It confounds me my extensive contributions on all these projects means so little because I had yet to involve myself with one more. I'm not saying they don't have a point behind their reasoning, but I gave them more than enough evidence of what I could contribute. Any way, I am only writing to alert you to what I see is a problem on one of the projects. Also, it would be helpful to the projects as a whole if we could get some kind of "press corps" accreditation the whole of the community could use. And thank you for everything you've done - you certainly have added a lot of satisfaction to my life. -- DavidShankBone 02:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
According to The Age newapaper [23] you are about to visit Melbourne. Do you want to meet with Melbourne wikipedians? Maybe you can provide an input on Wikipedia:Meetup/Melbourne#Jimbo? Alex Bakharev 01:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a comment left on my TALK page from a person who says he's a German Wikipedian, and that the German version already is somewhat authoritarian when it comes to credentials (maybe they're working on a harmonized EU version even now, hah). Anyway, I thought the comment deserved more exposure and I'm reposting it here. If it turns out to be a hoax, anybody who knows more about this is free to delete with prejudice. If not, it represents another interesting viewpoint. S B H arris 04:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi am from Germany and after the Essjay skandal i had a closer look on the english wikipedia and read your postings. The differnces are quite fascinating. The german wikipeda, the second bigest wikipedia in size, is ruled by experts. To proof my point have a look on homeopathy http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hom%C3%B6opathie#Kritik_an_der_Hom.C3.B6opathie in the german wikipedia chapter 5 is named Criticism 5.1 no proof of efficacy 5.2 no plausible mechanism 5.3 internal contradictions 5.4 dangers 5.5 miscellaneous criticism. This chapter has a very strong scientific POV and there is just one lousy weblink is in it as reference. If someone comes around in the discussion page and says: "hey this is POV!" the physicans will say: "So what?" and if he writes "There are no refernces in the critism chapter so i doubt it is correct." The physicans will say: "Well i am Physican i know that this is right, so you have to prove ME that it is not correct.". Also there is no need for consenses, the german wikipedia doesn't have that rule and in the AfD it is not a vote but an exchange of arguments and even if a majority like 70% says keep, the admin will delete the article if he is the arguments for deletion are stronger in his opinion. I wonder if germans tend to authoric systems more so that there wiki is authoric too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.133.146.6 ( talk) 01:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't know about your citation rules, but I know the German WP, since I'm sysop there and wrote a lot of articles there. And I can only say that the point made by the IP user above is completely exaggerated. Maybe s/he is upset about something there and now tries to push through his/her point via Meta or via Jimbo Wales' talk page. Anyway, we also have a strong need to have citations or at least sources given for POV or critical statements. I think that this should be clear anyway. Nevertheless, it is true that we trust users with scientific background more than it might be done in en.wp. (And in most cases the identity IS proven, because most scientific users work under their real name or at least write their name on their user pages or visit regular WP meetings or have a confirmed mail address where you can easily ask for the identity.) It is true that sysops on de.wp are given the authority to decide AFDs. If I work through AFDs I look for discussion contribs of specialist users who are experienced in the respective topic and whose opinion I can trust, if I don't have an idea of the topic myself. It is true that articles are sometimes deleted (or kept) also if much more than 50% are against this decision, but you also have to see that sockpuppetry and vote promotion on talk pages is very common on de.wp and thus often groups of people who share an opinion are discussing on the AFD page where the more neutral and outside people just ignore AFDs of topics where they don't have an idea of. So often you have four or five {keep} votes of people who know each other and who probably informed each other to vote there and no other opinions. What shall we do? Shall we keep the article if it is in a very bad quality and doesn't contain relevant information, just because a small group of people want that? Or shall we rather delete it to improve the quality of the wiki? I would strongly sign for the latter one. So I don't see us breaking rules and I think you should not form a view about it until you went to de.wiki, worked there or looked at all the discussions. The next point is that we try to have as little rules as possible to ease things. That should not mean that we don't have rule fetishists there, too... Probably the will to have rules for every single piece of doing is the worst German quality and belongs to our mentality and we are now trying to avoid that a little bit. ;o) That's just my opinion. Sorry, Jimbo, for inundating your talk page. Greetings, -- Thogo (Talk) 11:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. I took a look at the Conservapedia article today and noticed a quote from you regarding Conservapedia which, upon first reading it, I agreed with in principle (while also personally considering Conservapedia's policy to be misguided). It reads "Free culture knows no bounds . . . We welcome the reuse of our work to build variants." [24] I took a look at the talk page thereafter and noticed a subsection that I believe might be of interest to you. A Wikipedia editor noted that s/he thought that Conservapedia was copying a Wikipedia article and that s/he did not believe that Conservapedia uses the GFDL for its content. After a bit of looking, I reached the same conclusion; I see no evidence that Conservapedia releases its content under the GFDL, nor does the website appear to have any copyright policy at all right now. Thus, it seems that they perhaps default to the statutory copyright regime, at least for now, which is certainly incompatible with "free culture" and informational sharing.
That said, I wonder if you would consider retracting or amending your statment on Conservapedia, or at least consider their approach to copyright if asked to comment about Conservapedia in the future? Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that users who had been granted the "checkuser" bit were not anonymous to the foundation as this information is so sensitive and could put people in real danger if misused (ie Chinese editors). After the Essjay incident it is obvious that I was mistaken in that impression. Can you confirm that the identity of all those who have this access is known and verified by the foundation? I apologise if I am repeating a question that has been already answered but trawling the archives of this page and others I have not been able to find a definitive statement on this point. Sophia 07:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, we have a problem. Hundreds of users' autograph pages are being deleted. Those users have worked hard on their autograph pages. Please contact me on my user talk page here. Also see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Autograph_pages. This is serious. Please help us. Signed, A•N•N•Afoxlov e r 20:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, I don't know if you have a policy on this and I know Portuguese isn't one of your skills. Even so, there has been a perennial discussion on the portuguese wikipedia whether or not to "keep alowing edits from IPs" (unregistered users). I believe this is contrary to the spirit of wikipedia, and in the maybe-not-so-long run hurtful to the project. There are already heavy restrictions on voting rights (45 days from registration and 100 "good" edits) that were approved in 2005. Anyway, if you feel that you should say something there, the village pump equivalent is [ here]. One sad Portuguese, Galf 09:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for asking this here, but I believe that this is the only place that it can be brought up, since it was you that made the decision to not allow "with permission" licenses. Here's the issue: the International Symbol of Access (that wheelchair logo you see everywhere) is copyrighted. Its conditions of use essentially make it a "with-permission" image; the only place where fair use applies is on the International Symbol of Access article itself. At Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? I discussed this with other users, and made a free replacement - Image:Wheelchair.svg - that the uses of the copyrighted symbol have been replaced with. I do agree, however, with many of the people that commented that this seems pretty silly: the symbol is an international standard that people recognize. Can you please offer your view either here or at Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? Thank you. -- NE2 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that many publicists of notable persons would be willing to give out high-quality CC-BY-SA portraits if they were contacted directly by the Foundation, and informed of how this would improve their client's Wikipedia articles. Perhaps a form letter could be prepared, and Wikipedians could suggest different persons to be contacted about. Thanks for your consideration of this.-- Pharos 07:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, I don't know if you have a policy on this and I know Portuguese isn't one of your skills. Even so, there has been a perennial discussion on the portuguese wikipedia whether or not to "keep alowing edits from IPs" (unregistered users). I believe this is contrary to the spirit of wikipedia, and in the maybe-not-so-long run hurtful to the project. There are already heavy restrictions on voting rights (45 days from registration and 100 "good" edits) that were approved in 2005. Anyway, if you feel that you should say something there, the village pump equivalent is [ here]. One sad Portuguese, Galf 09:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for asking this here, but I believe that this is the only place that it can be brought up, since it was you that made the decision to not allow "with permission" licenses. Here's the issue: the International Symbol of Access (that wheelchair logo you see everywhere) is copyrighted. Its conditions of use essentially make it a "with-permission" image; the only place where fair use applies is on the International Symbol of Access article itself. At Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? I discussed this with other users, and made a free replacement - Image:Wheelchair.svg - that the uses of the copyrighted symbol have been replaced with. I do agree, however, with many of the people that commented that this seems pretty silly: the symbol is an international standard that people recognize. Can you please offer your view either here or at Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? Thank you. -- NE2 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Please archive this page. Its size is 289 KB! Thank you. -- Meno25 01:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Just letting you know that I sent you and Brad Patrick an email on this situation. It needs attention ASAP as this user is threatening legal action. And since she is a lawyer, I'm pretty certain it's legitimate. -- Woohookitty Woohoo! 06:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Donwarnersaklad ( talk • contribs) 15:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC).
I have never understood why a contributor of information, someone, who wanted to share his knowledge with this community, would keep his identity anonymous. How credible can information be, where the author is not willing to stay by his point? Britta Scholz, Student at SDU Odense, Denmark —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.225.156.121 ( talk • contribs)
My curriculum vitae at Wikipedia is the sum total of my edits, and Wikipedia is highly transparent. "Wetman" may not be my real name, but I am scarcely anonymous here. Like everyone else, I put my reputation on the line with every edit. -- Wetman 05:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Jimbo Wales, you still think that an apology is enough? You still say that you "request his resignation". You should have the moral courage to say that he has been banned for his glaring deception. Don't you think that it is now required that all the articles written/reviewed/edited by him should be re-examined now or removed from wikipedia.
You say that wikipedia is build on trust but you don't seem to really care about building and maintaining it.
I haven't read his edits, but I read he used false credentials to impress upon others. Have you read all? Are you willing to take responsibility to answer those who might be misguided by Ryan Jordan's misinformed words. I want Mr. Wales to state that next time this sort of thing happens he wouldn't jump to defend some liar just because he has been a long time contributor to Wikipedia. I want him to make a plan that it doesn't happen again. I want him to make a plan to find out who else is doing the same thing Ryan Jordan was doing. I want Wikipedia community to show their contempt for lying and liars. I want them to stop praising impostors and show their allegiance to truth and accuracy of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.115.151 ( talk • contribs)
There is a problem when I upload something. When I upload material, it stay the same. I even upload it again it, it there. P.S. Please talk to me on my user page. Jet123 11:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have doubts my contribution will be valued in light of the code-worded suggestion at the top of this page encouraging deletion of comments that make "the community" uncomfortable by letting it see itself through the eyes of others. Nonetheless, I submit that due diligence on the part of Wikimedia Foundation leadership could easily have averted this scandal. That Essjay lied about his credentials on Wikipedia might not be something anyone could have prevented under current policy. What shed light on the dishonesty was when Essjay showed up as an employee of the closely related for-profit Wikia, Inc.
The scandal was not that Essjay cooked his credentials, but that the co-founder and a former board member of Wikimedia hired him and kept company with him but either did not know or did not care about his dishonesty. If Essjay was a tenured professor, how could someone with a masters degree believe he had time to take an entry level job at a dot-com start-up? According to the New York Times, Wales thought it was okay for Essjay to operate an online identity that includes false claims of professional credentials. (What an odd morality Wikipedia breeds -- one false identity is okay, but two is evil "sockpuppetry") Then Wales accepted Essjay's apology for the harm that resulted from something Wales thought was okay to do. That might settle it for Wales, but he needs to consider that it might not settle it for other reasonable adults. The irresponsibility those involved ask us to ignore -- in the interest of avoiding personal attacks or for whatever reason --- approaches absurd.
Wales knew or should have known that he hired someone who publicly lied about his credentials. Instead, we the public are asked to believe that it simply doesn't matter, and that our offense at being lied to is somehow an offense against Wikipedia, rather than a reaction to an offense against our integrity as readers by key Wikipedia personnel. Telling us at the outset not to be offended by wrong information does not resolve the offensiveness of wrong information. We are told time and again that Wikipedia is a community that knows each other through their project activities, but we discovered that a co-founder of the project did not even know his own employees and was mislead or participated with the employee in misleading others about the identity and credentials of the employee.
As par usual, if we don't have some standing in the so-called community, our reaction as public readers to this scandal is as likely to be met with claims that we are at fault for calling offensive dishonesty offensive dishonesty as we are to be offered an apology and a detailed forthright disclosure of what he knew and when he knew it from the former chairman of the board who hired this person in a closely related for-profit venture without challenging the false credentials the employee used to boost his reputation. Once again, the public is blamed for caring about integrity, while those who exposed lack of integrity are treated with derision by those who participated in compromising integrity of the project. Of course I'm offended. There are times when this project needs to stop trying to blame a fictional abusive other, and to admit the black eye is a result of it tripping over its own feet because it's not watching where it is going. MetaNoble 00:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jimmy, We, Wikipedians from Indian diaspora wants to hear about your Indian experience. We expect to hear your tale as soon as the Essjay problem subsided. Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.13.233.2 ( talk) 11:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
Hi Jimbo, please create a User Page in Wikipedia en Español. URUTORAMAN MEBIUSU You need aid? 17:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Should we make Wikipedia harder from people who are vandalists or etc., like a special test? Trampton 12:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
Larry Sanger; "I'm going to ask just one more time, and then I am going to leave it alone, because I have far better things to do, with the launch of the Citizendium approaching. Jimmy, if I may--what mistake, precisely, do you admit to making? Before you answer, let me clarify the question. I know you say, "It was a mistake for me not to check the facts," and "Making up a set of impressive credentials is of course a violation of people's trust." This seems to imply that you did not know that Essjay had made up his impressive credentials, and the mistake you admit to making is this: you didn't bother to check out Essjay's impressive credentials. If that's your answer, I want to point out some facts. Essjay started as an employee in your company in early January, so his Wikia page history says. Surely you found out about his fraud then. Didn't you? Or did you actually hire him still thinking that he was a tenured professor of theology? (Why on Earth would a tenured professor want to come to work for Wikia?) Look, either you hired him thinking he was a tenured professor, or you hired him knowing he was a fraud. There wasn't a third option. I think, Jimmy, that people are desperately hoping for honesty and a meaningful apology from you. That will require an explanation of why you hired him and why you put him on ArbCom when you had to know he was a fraud--when you had to know that he wasn't the tenured professor he claimed to be. Otherwise just come out and say this: I really believed that Essjay was a tenured professor of theology when I hired him, and when I promoted him to ArbCom, and when I told The New Yorker that he was just using a pseudonym and I didn't care about that. This is, I promise, the last you'll hear from me about this. If anyone is going to hold your feet to the flames on this, it won't be me. I have to admit I'm just too disgusted to care anymore. --Larry Sanger 05:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
I would be reluctant to give any clue to my RL identity, for my own personal reasons. To be frank people don't need qualifications to regurgitate fact which is all we do here. Remember "own research" is not permitted. Even if it were announced at the top of the page that it had been written by the world's most eminent professor, there is nothing to stop another less exalted editor another paragraph - that is how wikipedia works. People using bogus credentials happens all the time in real life in hospitals, schools and multi-national companies. Sooner or later Citizendum and other similar projects will have their own identical scandals - the very nature of the internet and human behaviour creates them, and unless people are going to post their passports, identity papers and utility bills on their user pages (which will never happen) - these things will be repeated. So like it or lump it we have to get real and get over it. Posting or having qualifications in itself is a minefield? - which university granted the degree, which country was the university in? Can we rely on the student from The University of Ruritania? Whatever we decide, the dedicated imposter will always find a way in. We could demand however as Daniel Bryant suggests known true identity for checkusers and those who publicly represent and speak for wikipedia - sort of give certain editors an accredited press badge. Giano 09:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What Daniel.Bryant said is what I meant exactly. -- Meno25 10:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Daniel Bryant and Giano on this one. If anyone is in a higher position above editor (admin and up), they should be expected to provide (privately) their credentials (if they choose to post them on their userpages) to Jimbo or the foundation. I believe it is important that editors do all they can to not post their personal information anywhere on the web. As Giano has stated, we simply use referenced work anyway, so our expertise is defined by our ability to research and cite our references.-- MONGO 10:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
And what happens if they don't claim anything. People who respect their privacy and refused to reveal anything? Will they be able to have higher positions, Checkuser, Oversight, on Wiki? (Sorry if I sound harsh) -- K.Z Talk • Vandal • Contrib 10:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What we shouldn't have is a replication of Citizendium, where everyone has to prove their expertise/training/credentials. I would probably leave Wikipedia if that were to happen. In reevaluation, might I suggest that checkuser/oversight/arbcom and "approved" spokespersons have their personal details filed in private with the Foundation. We can't stop editors from speaking to the press and we shouldn't, but we can definitely ensure that anyone acting in an official capacity has proof of their achievements on record.-- MONGO 11:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Is the idea to require any claims of credentials to be verified? Or is it simply to allow credentials to be verified, if an editor wishes? The latter seems more workable, and more in line with privacy concerns. Right now, people have the easy privacy cop-out that Essjay took, if their credential claims are questioned. A voluntary system removes that as a reasonable evasion. You can prove to the Foundation that you are legit, without revealing your real identity to Wikipedia as a whole. I don't really see a downside, as all it does is remove camoflouge for fraud. I suppose however that one might prefer to allow generic suspicions of fraud, if one is opposed to credentials being used at all. I think the singular focus on admins and such is misplaced, most of the world isn't going to particularly care about that distinction because admins don't do most of the editing. Derex 23:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I do think that the important thing is that people who are held out as having authority be - well, not saints who are beyond all possible reproach (none of us are that) but certainly people who are at least bona fide. Hence my support for the proposals that I have made, or supported, here about some kind of confidentially-maintained register of personal details for people beyond a certain level of Wiki-authority. I tend to think, at the moment, that the way to go with the credentials thing is to insist that credentials don't count and to deprecate their use. Accordingly, I have just removed references to real-world credentials/experience from my userpage - not because they were inaccurate but because I now think that having them there is a bad idea, and trying to pull rank based on expertise or real-world experience is likewise a bad idea. I'm not even saying I've never yielded to the temptation to do that in the past - the record would show me up if I said that - but I'll make efforts to resist the temptation in the future. Sometimes real-life things about oneself have to be mentioned or hinted at (e.g. for disclaimers), but I think that a credential-vetting system is probably not the way to go, and anyway until such a time as we do go down that path we should all be reluctant to say much at all about any special expertise we might have. Metamagician3000 01:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a positive step to have you acknowledged in direct terms that this was a scandal. Thank you. — Doug Bell talk 09:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
It was a scandal. And I have apologized for my role in it. I made several mistakes of judgment at various points along the way, and I am very much in favor of reforming our processes so that we are not so vulnerable. I am spending a lot of time reflecting carefully on my role here. The primary mistake that I made is one that I have trouble condemning myself for, because I think that one of my personality flaws is actually a strength for Wikipedia: a willingness to trust people and assume good faith even in difficult times. That caused me to wrongly minimize the importance of this, and to make bad decisions for a time. I am very sorry for that, and the only solution I know of is to work for positive change.-- Jimbo Wales 11:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As I see it Essjay has gone off into the wilderness with a lot of well deserved condemnation ringing in his ears, inspired by copious amonts of righteous anger and not a small amount of schadenfreude. Essjay regrets it, we regret it. It happened, it is over. It is time to stop the autopsy and the "mea culpas" - hindsight is a wonderous thing, and none of us have it. It is going to happen here and to all similar projects again at some time in the future - that is unavoidable by the laws of human nature. If that Citizendum man does not realise that then he is bigger fool, than some of us probably feel right now. Time now to move on and endevour to prevent it happening so easily again, and join the conversation instigated by Jimbo above. Giano 12:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
We have to keep in mind that nobody is really interested in the dirt here. What really draws their interest is the grandness of this NPOV vision of describing accurately the paths of civilization in attempting to bring men to be human. Now there is a lot of conflict in exactly what human civilization is, and that conflict is what brings them all here. Nobody is really interested in whatever small deception there is in Essjay playing out that nice role he wrote for himself in his life. It would make a delightful short movie--not much of a deception at all. However, when that small deception appears against the background of this huge NPOV project and mission of capturing in print the truth of all of man's striving since the beginning of time--that deception, though small, will drive men mad. So we have to keep all of this in perspective. While it may good for us all to ask forgivenesses for our "small deceptions" and oversights, let us not forget that the only reason that our detractors' animal passions blow this series of events completely out-of-proportion is because of the grandness of this NPOV mission and dream of making all that is known available in one accurate Wikipedia available free-to-all. That is huge, and it is that hugeness of enterprise and possibility that brings even the detractors to these pages. So we have to kind of calm everybody down and keep our sense of proportion. This mission is huge, let us admit. -- Rednblu 12:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course, I have found my questions from ten hours ago--not personal attacks, not trolling, but perfectly honest questions--buried in the archive. We'll all draw our own conclusions and as I said, I'm done. -- Larry Sanger 14:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think Jimbo deserves sole responsibility here: if some of the issues that emerged in the last week had been known earlier on then the community would have dealt with the issue without such fuss. It had been my belief that serious misrepresentations usually get weeded out at the RFA level. Once I saw the relevant diffs, Essjay's fiction was apparent: he demonstrated the spelling and punctuation mistakes of an undergraduate rather than the prose of a professor and Catholicism for Dummies isn't the type of source a Ph.D. normally cites. Someone who knew his contribution history could have made a strong circumstantial case to challenge his CV, either during a formal nomination or at RFC. A few step forward now to say it was obvious...well, what seemed obvious to me (and I suppose to many others) is that an administrator, bureaucrat, etc. probably had told the truth all along or he wouldn't have attained those positions of trust. As I stated in my first comment on this scandal, if any other administrators have padded their credentials I hope they come clean now. Durova Charge! 15:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we get back to constructive discussion of how/whether to vet credentials (if we are going to do that, which doesn't seem like a priority to me ... but that's just me) and/or how/whether to vet the bona fides of people in (or seeking) positions of trust? Endless slagging off at Jimbo gets us nowhere, and he's not only apologised for making misjudgments but also made an attempt to consult with us constructively. For God's sake let's concentrate on taking him up on that. Metamagician3000 22:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Just as the New York Times is rather complimentary about our "transparency" and efforts to resolve this issue through discussion, all evidence of this incident is being deleted. If anyone were to look today, there would be no RFC about Essjay, no letter from Essjay to "other" professors, no talk archives about other users trying to talk to him about the situation, and no article about "Essjay". If this continues, the next article in the Times is going to be titled "Wikipedia attempts to cover up scandal", and as we have all just learned, sometimes the cover up is worse than the crime.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.150.34.235 ( talk • contribs)
Some of us expected this and archived some things with webcitation.org:
74.225.21.234 19:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
This has been pretty much brushed off for weeks since it first turned up and Daniel Brandt kept pestering Essjay about it on his talk page, only to have his comments deleted. Brandt's got his issues, but this probably could have been preempted if people weren't so quick to dismiss all outside criticism as illegitimate and the work of trolls and vandals. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 14:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
First let me make crystal clear: I have no axe to grind against Essjay. I knew and admired him mostly through his reputation and had only very limited direct interaction with him. Until a few days ago, that's all there was.
I was deeply disturbed by his long-term deception, the black eye he gave the project via the New Yorker article, and the seemingly cavalier attitude regarding all this from you. Because of my strong feelings that without accountability on this issue that I could not continue at the project, I have spent a great deal of effort over the last several days trying to focus discussion on what I believe are the core issues at stake. I have done this knowing that such heavy involvement might earn me the wrath of many of the long-time and key contributors here who counted Essjay among their friends. I've done this despite many direct and indirect accusations of being part of "a mob", "a lynching", or simply someone motivated to "kick someone while they were down". Nothing could be further from the truth. My motivation was to help rescue the project from a wound inflicted by one of our best contributors.
It has been a difficult and unpleasant process, and one likely to have cost me much goodwill from many of the others here that hold similar positions of high trust as Essjay did. I accept that cost if it helps the project because really for me the only alternative was to leave.
Now it seems that this process of community discussion and evaluation is being replaced by out-of-process attempts to, as put above, sweep much of this under the rug. I can think of nothing at this point that will harm the project more than that. David Gerard's deletion of the most orderly and constructive discussion on this is perhaps the last straw for me. I am reluctant to give up the fight for the project, as I have seen that most people here understand the absolute need for accountability despite the personal pain involved. However, I am becoming exhausted with the effort required to continue against the emotionally-driven efforts of many people here—and many from the innermost circles of the project hierarchy—to undo the painfully achieved progress on vetting and moving forward. It makes me sad, and it has exhausted my energy for the moment to continue to fight for the dignity of the project.
For now, I'm stepping back and hoping that others will save the project from itself. I hope to return soon, but it depends on whether the project has the strength to complete the process recently praised in the New York Times article. Sorry if this all sounds melodramatic, but I believe this to be a defining point for the project. You have stepped forward and that gives me great hope in the leadership, but for now I wait to see how this plays out. Your skills at moving the community forward constructively are needed now as much as ever before.
— Doug Bell talk 17:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
As a new editor, using my real name from the beginning; albeit an accused "sock puppeteer," I have seen first hand what can come from a misguided "checkuser" system and I have also been disappointed, having seen thousands of meaningful items of knowledge deleted by individuals seeking to create their own encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia for "the people."
I have said this beautiful creation called Wikipedia, should be "the source," of all information...for us, and our children. "THE SOURCE," that does more additions than subtractions; a source with verified proof of facts and the integrity to show it.
By using our real names, ages, and our verifiable credentials, we truly share our experience, strengths, and hope...for our future here.
I suspect without the above, we have many/all of the elements that make "MySpace" a giant machine, however, we are all left without any form of verifiable truth to help substantiate any valid concept or theory ...that we are truly adding value and/or knowledge to our world.
Finally, as a dad, I want my children to use this miracle, with confidence, that someone with verifiable credentials is responsible for reviewing and correcting any lack of verifiable truth, herein.
Thank you for your time, Lee Nysted 18:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment by Nysted:
All people of authority and especially "police" type authority figures like administrators, must be required to provide full disclosure of name, age, credentials, life experience, etc. It is unconscionable, what some of the administrators are getting away with, here. Gangs? Yes. MySpace gangs? Yes. Full disclosure of who is capable of taking my rights away, or taking away the rights of my family members should be known to all. Without a trusted governing body, there will be a system-wide failure. It could cost us the entire enterprise. This is the most serious breach of confidence this place has seen, but it will get far worse, if not checked, here and now. Lee Nysted 03:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it might help if you could please advise why you apparently allowed Essjay to keep false information on his Wikipedia page after he advised you it was false. Why would you not have instructed him to immediately correct or remove it?
I am relying on Essjay's talk page description of the events(as linked to by Wikinews) so if that is not accurate,please let us know.To just let that information sit as it is gives rise to assumptions of cavalierness about the matter which are likely wrongful assumptions, so please help clear that up if you don't mind.
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/essjay.html 67.71.123.134 20:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
---
Good question! But apparently there is no way to answer that question--because the questioner cannot be interested in the question as asked. The questioner is interested in that question only against the backdrop of the huge task of building an accurate NPOV encyclopedia. And no doubt the questioner asks that question in good faith; I must admit that I ask that same question in good faith. But realistically, the questioner, even I, would never go around asking that kind of question--unless of someone involved in some huge monumental historic task like building an accurate NPOV encyclopedia. So no answer to that question or its variants would ever satisfy. -- Rednblu 21:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
While Jimbo's current idea is designed to increase Wikipedia's credibility by focusing on editors, he had another idea a while back to help credibility by focusing on articles. He outlined it in an interview in this article. Basically, it would create 2 versions of pages that reach a threshold of stability, a stable and a live version. The stable version would be shown and the live version would be available to edit. Edits to the live version would have to be approved in some way before they are added to the stable version. My question is: Is this still in the works or has this been pushed to the wayside by other ideas? Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Wales also plans to introduce a 'stable' version of each entry. Once an article reaches a specific quality threshold it will be tagged as stable. Further edits will be made to a separate 'live' version that would replace the stable version when deemed to be a significant improvement. One method for determining that threshold, where users rate article quality, will be trialled early next year.
Hi Jimbo,
Because of concerns that user:Essjay used false credentials while editing (or influence the editing) of many articles, I have used Interiot's edit counter to see which articles Essjay edited the most. It is a monumental task to attempt to check all of Essjay's 16,000 edits, but there are only three articles which he edited more than 10 times. I am attempting clean-up, de-POV, and fact-checking of these articles, but am experiencing some resistance from users who feel that "any clearly erroneous edits from two years ago would have long since been found and corrected" and "what exactly is the problem?" However, research indicates these edits are still in the article, and that Essjay or his supporters did use his false credentials to stave off edit disputes. The three articles in question are Roman Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Louisville and Cathedral of the Assumption in Louisville. All other articles were edited less than 10 times by Essjay.
Wikipedia requires vigorous fact-checking to maintain its credibility; however, I feel like I'm coming up against a stone wall. I've had to explain my reasons for fact checking (which seems ironic), and have been characterized as "vindictive" and pursuing "ad hominem assaults". Thse comments sadden me, as Essjay was the 'crat who promoted me to Admin. I know that you want what's best for the encyclopedia, which to me means double-checking the facts submitted by an editor (any editor, but certainly one who now has credibility issues).
Please support me in reviewing this material. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
With respect, in light of the Essjay fiasco I would like to suggest new standards for Administrators, both for the Admin's now working and future Admin's.
What we need at Wikipedia are REAL standards for Administrators, such as resumes, real names and reference checks...who knows who these people REALLY are ? upstanding citizens? criminals? unemployed druggies? liars like Essjay? there obviously needs to be a NEW set of standards...
Lest Wikipedia end up on the Citizendium blog again:
Yours very truly,
Headphonos 00:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with this for admins. This seems like far too much work to justify it (background checks for every RfA?). However, for higher authorities: ArbCom, Oversight, and especially CheckUser (access to personal info) I think this could be a good idea. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 00:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Please don't take this as a legal opinion or as legal advice, but Wikimedia's privacy policy appears to be silent on this issue. As for your point "b," I'm pretty sure that all current bureaucrats are also admins; ditto for stewards, ArbCom members, and those with checkuser and oversight privileges. The only people in a position of trust at Wikipedia who are not also admins are some of the developers. In any event, all of these people should be held to the minimum standards that apply to admins. // Internet Esquire 02:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The Privacy policy does not indicate anywhere that I need to give my mailing address to the Wikimedia Foundation. I will not do so, unless an employee of the Foundation requests it, and I know exactly what is going to be done to that information, where it is going to be stored, and how it is going to be protected. I will not provide it to OTRS volunteers, or any other on-wiki functionaries, and I'm sure others will refuse to do so as well, as you're talking about information that is considered sacrosanct by many users here. In fact, the whole desire to have a shroud of privacy is the whole reason this incident occurred. Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 02:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Very funny. Now, how about something that actually solves the issue? Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 02:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorrry, Tito, but that's precisely the solution that I was looking for -- i.e., encouraging administrators who want to maintain their anonymous status to step down and become just another registered user. // Internet Esquire 02:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, there has to be a new standard at Wikipedia....next time it might not be just a liar...but worse...such as a child molestor who hurts a young editor or ??? Headphonos 03:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
And asking minors - who make up a number of our administrators - to reveal personally identifying information would help protect them from child molestors how? You know, I doubt even half of this stuff is really about making the encyclopaedia better. I hear axes grinding. -- Sam Blanning (talk) 03:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
People are suggesting that admins and others in "trusted positions" should give up their anononimity, but no one has really said what that would entail. I've seen everything from the modest (giving a name to the foundation) to the extreme (Background checking). What would the personal info be? Name? Credentials? Address? Phone number? And also, where would it go? A special page for admins? A userpage? The Foundation? As many others have said, anything besides the more modest proposals is an awful idea. I'm not an admin and I would like to be one eventually. However, if I had to post personal information about myself online first or give it to a possibly anonymous volunteer, I'd say you're crazy. In this age, we have to be careful not only of liars, but people who take advantage of honest folks. While I would give my name to a Foundation employee, I don't really see how that would help with the exception of a case like Essjay's where he was referred by the Foundation. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 23:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It's ok at MySpace, but not here.
Here is what Citizendium said about Wikipedia; this will only get worse.
"Of course, the moniker “Essjay” is obviously a pseudonym. But Essjay’s invented persona, as the New Yorker described it, or in other words his lies about being a different person, cannot be regarded as a pseudonym by anyone who knows what “pseudonym” means. A pseudonym, or pen name, is just a name, not an identity. Responsible publications that permit pseudonyms don’t permit misrepresentation of the actual qualifications of the person with the pseudonym. That would be a breach of the readers’ trust. That of course is why The New Yorker felt it had to apologize."
From: Citizendium Blog March 1, 2007
It is up to us, but the world will watch and vote while using articles about credibility issues here, and real live journalists will "unite." Lee Nysted 14:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Admins such as Essjay ran goon squads targeting, blocking, harassing, editors who knew too much. The checkuser system was handled by this fraud. Has anyone looked into whether this guy had any knowledge nor skill to verify sockpuppets. This proven fraudster was trusted with handling private info. When he lost some argument and risk being exposed, he would claim the opponent was trolling and get his goon squad to block/ban him. Essjay used irc (primarily) to communicate and scheme to bump off his opponents. In order to avoid radar and any potentially bad publicity, he got his loyal crew (which he presumably) had a hand in promoting to admins to do the 'dirty work.' One such member of his enforcement crew/goon squad is Steel359 (I am not sure if he/it is a sockpuppet Essjay). Efforts to delete his history is part and parcel of this group to hide their connection to this exposed fraudster. 74.112.107.145 02:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
That's the buddy system, working "as designed" from Wikipedia's dark MUD side. Gwen Gale 09:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, let's stay on track - otherwise, this could all become (more) chaotic. Metamagician3000 10:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) To respond to the IP, a couple of samples of my investigations are available at User:Durova/Complex vandalism at Joan of Arc and Wikipedia:Community_noticeboard/Archive3#Unblock_of_Thekohser.3F. Here's the diff of my block warning to a fellow admin. [7] I took quite a bit of heat for that post. I also founded Category:Eguor admins, which pledges to give an impartial hearing to editors who can prove they've been treated unfairly. See User talk:Cwiki for an example of an indef blocked account whose editing privileges I restored after the user's unblock request had been rejected. I've given evidence at a number of arbitration cases. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Midnight Syndicate is a representative example. Investigations at Wikipedia aren't a credentialed undertaking so I'll let my editing record speak for itself. I offered e-mail as an option in case you've been sitebanned or have worries about onsite retribution. If you choose to take up my offer of investigation onsite it would be a good idea to move this thread to my own user talk page. I'll extend this to Everyking and anyone else who wants this investigated. Now you've made some very serious allegations. WP:AGF constrains me to assume people have acted properly unless you demonstrate otherwise with good evidence. Are you going to back up your claims? Durova Charge! 16:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Durova, Isn't it possible to do checkuser from archived results from 2006 to pin down if Robbie31 and Essjay had same IP address. Chances the IP address will be the same and this is covered up by the fact that Essjay and Robbie31 are partner and live in the same home presumably. But then this has been referred to as the roomate excuse in sock puppet cases and carries little weight. So I can't see how you can conclude definitively that Robbie31 is not a sockpuppet of Essjay. But considering Essjay has lied on everything he has said and this proven beyond reasonable doubt now... that is the only predictable trend (plausible/simplest explanation) that he has lied regarding this matter as well. 74.112.107.145 04:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
You know, after I myself, as a new editor here, was first blocked for a bad reason by Essjay (who was not always, contrary to memoryhole-supported opinion here, a nice guy), I tracked him for some time, to see what kind of an odd duck he was. I watched him, among other things, casually threaten to de-sysop an admin for removing the "nominations open" tag from their userpage, because that would hurt Wikipedia's advertising space for that. I said to myself: "De-sysop somebody for THAT?? This dude has way too much power, and uses it too easily and childishly." But somehow, "learning" that Essjay was a professor of Canon Law at a major university calmed me down a little. If figured he must have some wisdom to attain such a position, and maybe was having a couple of bad days. So yes, his claimed credentials did work to protect him. But not in a way that has been mentioned here, up to now. S B H arris 20:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It also appear to be a deliberate means to confuse any reader, where Essjay writes this comment on Robbie31's talk page "Oh, and I'll go edit your CSS & JS pages so the display looks like the one on my comp, don't want you getting confused. ;-) -- Essjay · Talk 05:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC) " This implies Robbie31 appears to be using Essjay's computer or something but he claims to have done anonymous edits earlier. Robbie31 has only made 7 entries that can be accounte for. So why do this, because I think this comment is to cover for a potential slip up he (Essay) made somewhere. This conversation just doesn't make logical sense. Robbie31 supposedly knew how to make anonymous edits before, so why have to make the display same as Essjays's, in order to avoid being confused [12] ? Confused of what ? He was doing just fine doing anonymous edits before. Hence there is clearly a big hole in the Robie31 persona. 74.112.107.145 04:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Er, SBHarris, Redwolf24 is not Essjay, and is a completely different administrator. Would you care to offer proof of your allegation that he is? pschemp | talk 03:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
We are now having a witch hunt? That's nice. Grace Note 04:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I am a relatively new person who has experienced many attacks and accusations from Admins/Bureaucrats without explanation. Things go on behind the scenes and a person like me has to accept what they do on their say so - like being accused of Sockpuppet with no evidence or rationale offered. There are roving gangs. Something needs to change. I feel very bad today. I have a Ph.D. but don't edit articles having to do with my field. I don't think the credentialing idea is a good one. I know nothing about the individual involved except that his archiving bot is gone -- I was using it and it was wonderful. Sincerely, -- Mattisse 02:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that credentials will be hard to verify. I also agree that WP:V and WP:RS sources must out-weigh any claims to special knowledge. Wikipedia has taken a black eye in the media because the media didn't verify credentials as well they should have. We don't need to add a layer of complexity to our user page policy and administrative processes. We need only a disclaimer that appears automatically at the bottom of each user page stating that this is a user's page and that no claims made on this page have been verified by anyone for any purpose. Rklawton 04:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
In my humble opinion this is best approached overall by a deprecation of any claim to authority or academic credentials. If such a claim is made on a user page, I think it should be lightly verified but even so, claims to academic authority in edit disputes should be banned outright. For those in positions of trust (arbcomm and CU, spokesperson speaking for WP and so on) there should be a more rigorous, internal and confidential background check, as with any responsible org. Gwen Gale 08:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I think these guidelines are a great idea, but I would take it one step further: Don't post credentials at all. What's the point of having your credentials on your userpage? Having them posted serves no purpose other than as status. People just use credentials here to push their ideas on other editors: (example statement) "I've got a Master's in Biology. I'm right, you're wrong." Or, they use them to make themselves sound more reliable. Who's to say someone with only a high school diploma is less trustworthy/reliable/better than someone with a Ph.D. That's the allure that draws in new editors: Anyone can contribute, no matter their situation. People using credentials as status is why people leave. If we don't allow credentials, we wouldn't have to enforce the rule by checking them, we would enforce it by just removing it. Mr.Z-man talk ¢ Review! 23:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to preface my comments to this briefly: Although I've been a member of the English Wikipedia for some time now, I am by no means an expert in all things Wiki, nor do I claim to be. Secondly, the whole User:Essjay fiasco is rather new to me. Although I have been slightly following the issue (who hasn't?) I am again, by no means an expert. Feel free to poke holes in, puncture, ventilate, and/or mutilate my arguement as you see fit.
Now, I think that at the heart of this debate is the idea of credentials having weight on Wikipedia. And although I think Jimbo's plan to check credentials is a good one, I'm still confused as to why credentials have to carry weight. After all, if everyone can edit, it's to be assumed that some will be better editors than others, and likewise, some will be more knowledgable in a certain sector than another. So why do people have to whip out their credentials? Wikipedia is supposed to be peer edited, and in my opinion, it seems that by essentially "pulling rank" on another editor by using external credentials (degrees, carreers, etc.) said "more educated/better" editor is immediately setting themselves above their peers. And granted, I'm just a beginner, but it seems like that sort of pseudo-caste system is an anathema to what Wikipedia desires to be. Why not have a "No exterior credentials" policy?
Thanks for your input! Belril 05:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I just went and looked at Economics for less than 20 seconds. Under Areas of economics there are two specialties with subsections. Both are cited. The first is "Mesoconomics", I've never heard of at all (am a research professor). A search on Econlit, which indexes the abstracts of all scholarly journals related to economics and covers tens of thousands of articles, shows 3 uses of this term in refereed journals. The second is "Picoeconomics". Again, I've never heard of it. Econlit shows 0 hits in refereed journals.
Do you understand what this means? The Wikipedia article on economics highlights exactly two topics in the section "Areas of economics". They are cited. Between them, these two areas have 3 mentions in the journal abstracts. Now, I don't know how they got there, because I long ago lost patience editing in my field. But, it's an effing joke. No, pay no heed at all to people who might know what the hell they're talking about. And this is what you get. Pathetic. Derex 06:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
"I do know nothing about it." WAS 4.250 07:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Derex has just described what, for me, is the big motor for improvement in Wikipedia – someone noticing something wrong, which impels them to research it and make a well substantiated change. An impediment to that process is pov pushers who feel they know better or are trying to use the page to put over their position, and who would be the first to claim priority because of their credentials. It can be a struggle and undoubtedly off-putting to academics used to their authority carrying weight, but here authority must be based on verifiable sources clearly and fairly presented. The success of this project comes, in my opinion, from it being a forum open to all and not a hierarchy of academic rankings. Derex prefers to edit in other areas – should these edits then be discounted because of lack of qualifications? Many pages have problems, and we should be open about that – and fix problems we find. .. dave souza, talk 09:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
So what is the status of the "conflict of interest" policy? Where is it? Any definition of "interest" and when the interests might be in conflict, say between Wikipedia's (or Wikia's or Jimbo's) or your own?
I previously tried to demonstrate some contradictory examples of COI on this page, to ask the question. I was ignored by Mr. Wales, and the few comments made just added more COI questions and contradiction examples.
I think, though, that my questions may have been answered indirectly, not on this page. I think my comments were incorrectly attributed to another editor: Gregory Kohs, if memory serves without trying to look up the formal name of "MyWikiBiz". Later, in watching some of the discussions he was involved in, I noticed that we both happen to use the same method of addressing Mr. Wales. Guess we both grew up to use the polite and formal moniker, until invited to do so otherwise. And he ended up banned, and posters on this Talk page continue to get accused of being him trolling. There was another instance this from Friday or Saturday, somewhere in the Essjay discussion.
Since a person's credentials, by college degree or by experience, has a high probility of relating to what work they do and/or for whom they work (by industry, by employer, etc). IMHO, the issue of verifying credentials will inevitably interlace with the COI policy. So can only non-employees of USAA edit its articles? Good luck untwisting the COI policy with the "Anyone can edit" philosophy with some new credentials policy.
ood luck untwisting these policies.
It's too simplistic to assume that every editing dispute can be resolved through the application of WP:NPOV and WP:ATT. Derex has given an example, where the issue is the best way to organize an article. Is he supposed to be required to go out and find a reliable source for the proposition that an encyclopedia article on "Economics" should have the following subheadings? That just won't happen. Sources should be required for factual assertions, but editors have to use their judgment on how best to organize the article. If the editors discussing that question are all proceeding in good faith, some might well choose to defer to Derex's view based on his overall knowledge of the field. Jimbo's proposal doesn't require that they defer. It means only that, if they're willing to, and if Derex has chosen to go through the verification process, they could have confidence in his credentials.
I had a similar experience. A U.S. Supreme Court decision addressed one issue at length but rejected another argument in a single sentence. On that basis, a non-lawyer Wikipedian kept inserting in the article the statement that the ruling on the second point was made "without consideration of the legal merits". His stated rationale was that the Court had a duty to explain any decision it made. I said, based on my years of practicing law and on my having read hundreds of judicial decisions, that that's not the way it's done.
This was a tangential point (like the organization of the Economics article). The other editor wasn't urging that the article say something like, "It is a point of pride among U.S. judges to give a full analysis of every issue presented to them, and they generally do so." I wasn't trying to insert something like, "Because many lawyers toss in every argument they can think of, no matter how weak, courts frequently give little or no explanation for why they're rejecting a particular argument." Either of those statements, in an article about the U.S. judicial system, would have to be supported by a reliable source. I wasn't saying that Wikipedia should assert the second statement just on my say-so (even though it happens to be true). Instead, I was saying that, because the second statement is true, the other editor's presentation of this particular holding was misleading. Some Wikipedians might choose to give my argument more weight based on my professional credentials. That's a long way from making me a Citizendium-style Designated Expert who can overrule everyone else simply by waving around my degree. JamesMLane t c 10:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, we invented credentials for a reason, as a completely needed timesaver. You don't (and can't) demand legal citations of the cop who gives you an order to get out of the car, because there isn't TIME. But what you don't undrstand is that there is NEVER time for that to work, in all cases. In ANY system. No matter HOW long you run it, so long as it remains connected to continually evolving real world. There's never time enough for thorough review of all but a tiny fraction of experience. Until we find some way of all of us getting a whole hell of a lot smarter. S B H arris 19:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Although I don't think the issue of credentials is central to what we should be discussing I do sympathise with what James is saying here. Any profession or academic discipline teaches you how to "think like a lawyer" (or whatever it is), and you end up knowing many things the provenance of which is impossible to trace (as someone once put it in an arb case) and perhaps impossible to document even if you could trace it. It's really not as simple as you're suggesting in some of your comments, Gwen, and I've seen a lot of disputes here where this problem has been in the background. I very much doubt that we can find a simple way to solve it and I'm not at all sure it is the main problem we should be trying to solve arising from the Essjay thing. Metamagician3000 10:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
And here is where we are disadvantaged vis a vis an academic journal - if he were writing for a law review, all this would be tacitly understood. Metamagician3000 10:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
<-- meta-discussion --> The above discsusion of legal issues is an example of the role of credentials and experts. the law is one area where credentials matter, and are respected. We may give more attention to what JamesMLane says because he's known (or claims) to be an attorney, but even more because he brings decades of training, legal reasoning, and knowledge to the discussion. His statements have a value based on a combination of claimed credential and evident insight. Even if we were ignorant of the credential we'd still perceive the expertise. The importance of true credentials when discussing legal matters is so common that we have an acronymed disclaimer for it, "IANAL". Ironically, when lawyers do engage in specific legal discussions they'll often make it clear the topic is outside their specialty and so refuse to give an opinion ("I am a lawyer but that's not my field" - "IAALBTNMYF"). And if they do ever make an assertion about the law they'll most often give their reasoning, rather than simply claiming personal authority. That's one reason why good free legal advice is rare. One law expert did become famous for giving free advice on the Internet, only he turned out to be a 15-year old kid who'd never read a single law book. (Marcus Allen [15] [16]) Not that that has anything to do with this matter at all. Under no circumstances are the situations at all similar. - Will Beback · † · 08:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
One useful thing that verifying credentials would do, is to address the concern that comes up frequently on WP:RS and WP:ATT (formerly WP:V) about the use of primary sources. There is language there, to the effect that it's sometimes difficult to interpret primary sources and you need to be an expert in that field, etc etc. If we can see that user X is a Ph.D. in Particle Physics then when they describe the spin of the tau neutrino, we'd have a bit of faith that they know what they are talking about. Personally I would have no problem being verified myself in my fields of expertise. Wjhonson 07:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Gwen your implication that we only allow "research which has been peer-reviewed through verifiable secondary sources" is not actually what is policy. You might want to review current WP:ATT policy to assure yourself that we do and have for some time, allow primary sources to be quoted. And we have not for a long long time, required "peer-review" in the sense you are using it here. Wjhonson 23:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that Jimbo's statement above, which was an instruction as to where commenters here should focus their comments, reminds me somewhat of a common politician's ploy of deflecting attention away from one's own involvement in a bad situation.
While it might be useful at some point to soak up lots of attention and energy with discussions about the issue of credentialism (which has been an issue that for eternity has defied consensus..even back to the days Jesus,as a child, is reported to have "taught" in the synagogues), isn't now the time,and this talk page the place,(whether it's comfortable or not) to ask Jimbo about his involvement in the EssJay debacle? Has the community already decided that whatever Jimbo's involvement was is better left in the closet? If EssJay is to be believed, "Before I accepted the position, I provided all my real details to Angela and Jimbo, and immediately provided the same information to Brad Patrick;"
http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/essjay.html
then isn't there a much bigger issue before this community? i.e. the level of honesty and integrity in play at the highest levels of authority on Wikipedia? Trustees,after all, are in a position of trust and that does not seem to me to fit well with EssJay's report that none of the 3 people he admitted his deceptions too advised him to immediately correct or delete those deceptions on his Wikipedia pages and,to the contrary, they went ahead and brought him into Wikia. I have concluded that Jimbo himself considered the deception not to be a big deal and yesterday's NYTimes report; "The New Yorker editors’ note ended with a defiant comment from Jimmy Wales, a founder of Wikipedia and the dominant force behind the site’s growth. 'I regard it as a pseudonym and I don’t really have a problem with it,' he said of Mr. Jordan’s alter ego." supports that conclusion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/technology/05wikipedia.html?ref=business
Notwithstanding Jimbo's statement of instruction above, I think this is the more important issue to be discussed right here and right now. 64.229.30.40 13:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
What about Jimbo's initial failure to act? It was a bad mistake, an error of judgment, I was wrong, and I have apologized for it and I apologize again here and now. I am not sure what else I can say about it. In my partial defense I can explain that I did not really understand the full scope of the deception, but even given that, I should have reacted sooner. In terms of what character flaw this might reveal about me, surely it is one which is already well known: I am a very trusting person who is very loyal to people who have done good things, even when this goes too far. I am on record many times stating that I am a "pathological optimist" and this is precisely the sort of thing I am talking about. I need other people in the community of a more skeptical and cautious bent, for sure. I try to listen, I try to learn, and in this case I made a mistake and I am sorry.
As to the blatant trolling of our anonymous friend, I really fail to see what he is talking about regarding some attempt to cover up or not examine my role in this. I think my role has been pretty clear and that I have been completely open about trying to apologize for my mistake here in not reacting sooner. The real answer is not to beat me up, although of course people can do that if they like (though likely, not more than I am beating myself up), but to think about how we can, as a community and in a scalable way that respects our openness and community values, find a way forward to help prevent this kind of thing in the future.-- Jimbo Wales 00:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
"....That will require an explanation of why you hired him and why you put him on ArbCom when you had to know he was a fraud.... --Larry Sanger 05:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)" [17] 64.229.29.154 04:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I wish to appeal an Arbitration case. The sub-page " Arbitration case appeal and irregularities" provides details -- Iantresman 14:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
A long time ago, Apple Computer came out with one of the first commercial hypertext products, named HyperCard. While the product was moderately successful, we didn't get massively scalable hypertext until the advent of the World Wide Web.
How is the Web different from earlier attempts at hypertext? There were basically two insights here, which would have been anathema to earlier proponents of hypertext systems. The first of these was to allow broken links. The second was to allow links to other machines, controlled by people you didn't even know, which might bring up almost anything when you followed them, even total crap.
Once you allow these two things, un-neat as they are, you have an extremely useful system which can scale to cover the entire planet.
Now, people unfamilar with the Web might choose to judge it with a yardstick which disparaged it based on how many Web pages contained inaccurate information, or how many links were broken, and suggest the way to "fix" the Web would be to enforce standards on it which only allowed verifiably accurate information, and required all links to point to information which actually existed and could be retrieved. Of course, if you did this, you'd be back to HyperCard, and have something much less useful.
A long time ago, someone invented a commercial encyclopedia product, named Britannica. While the product was moderately successful (not to mention overpriced), we didn't get a massive scalable encyclopedia which updated itself in real time and adapted almost instantly when new discoveries or breaking news occurred, until the advent of Wikipedia.
How is Wikipedia different from earlier attempts at encyclopedias? There are basically two insights here, which would have been anathema to earlier proponents of encyclopedia systems. First, rather than having all articles written by the greatest experts on the particular subjects, and taking years for any changes to propagate, you allow anyone to edit the encyclopedia, regardless of their qualifications. Second, you make the changes instantly visible, even if the articles are total crap.
Once you allow these two things, un-neat as they are, you have an extremely useful system which can scale to cover the entire planet, and serve as a repository of all the world's knowlege.
Now, people unfamiliar with Wikipedia might choose to judge it with a yardstick which disparaged it based on whether the people who wrote it had misrepresented their credentials, or how much of the information in it contained errors, and suggest that the way to "fix" Wikipedia would be to enforce standards which only permitted credentialed experts to have the last say in articles, and required all articles to be factually accurate. Of course, if you did this, you'd be back to Britannica.
I wonder if we're not making a big mistake by responding to the way the popular press is criticizing Wikipedia by proposing fundamental un-Wiki-like changes in the way contributors are vetted, and Wikipedia is run. I wonder if we aren't risking getting rid of those very things which make Wikipedia unique and special, and above all, useful and massively scalable. Hermitian 21:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Clay Shirky has some interesting comments in this (almost a year-old) column on Citizendium: [18]. Shirky's take (emphasis added by me):
Sanger is an incrementalist, and assumes that the current institutional framework for credentialling experts and giving them authority can largely be preserved in a process that is open and communally supported. The problem with incrementalism is that the very costs of being an institution, with the significant overhead of process, creates a U curve — it’s good to be a functioning hierarchy, and its good to be a functioning community with a core group, but most of the hybrids are less fit than either of the end points.
In other words, he claims that hybrid models are likely to work less well than either a highly open, egalitarian model (like Wikipedia) or an authoritative one (like traditional academia). Now, whether or not Shirky is correct is another matter--he write a well-read (by those who care about this stuff) blog and says lots of interesting things; and he's a researcher in the field; however his blog may or may not be a reliable source (it ain't peer reviewed, and it seldom references peer-reviewed literature). His bona fides can be found here [19]. -- EngineerScotty 00:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It is being covered in just minutes. C.m.jones 23:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
They just did a piece on television - on ABC Nightly News. C.m.jones 00:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see the piece, but perhaps Charles Matthews is User:Charles Matthews, who is a longtime Wikipedian and an arbitrator. Newyorkbrad 00:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Where he will most likely be charming, eloquent, and awesome, like he was here. That would be amazing for Wikipedia. -- Hojimachong talk 02:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Although different than the perspective of a legal scholar, we also may find it difficult to find a
WP:RS that some esoteric concept is crap
WP:BOLLOCKS. See the battles on
0.999...=1,
James Anderson,
Jonathan Bowers (now deleted), etc. It seems to me that an expert's opinion as to whether something is conventional mathematics/science/law may be almost impossible to
WP:Verify if the subject is only marginally
WP:Notable. We may need expert advice as to whether to remove something which is cited in fringe publications, and not discussed in mainstream publications. The basic concept of Wikipedia means that we cannot "publish" something which is not from
reliable sources, but we may refuse to publish something from marginally reliable sources if an expert reports it is "
not even wrong".
As an aside, in most sciences, we may need to make non-substantial changes in formulas from our references, as it's often the case that the references use more obscure notation than necessary. It takes an expert to verify that the changes aren't substantial.
As a further aside, my credentials including answering crank letters to the mathematics department at CalTech for one summer. (I don't think I can find a WP:RS for that, as there's little record kept of that sort of thing, especially since I usually signed replies "for the department", to avoid personal danger.)
So: I see a point for lightly verified credentials in some circumstances. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your comments, and I apologize if my lack of userpage has caused offense. -- Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 06:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
But I think it's really obnoxious and unbecoming of important people such as yourself to use language like "obnoxious" and "unbecoming" on fellow administrators, especially those that choose to be different! — Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 06:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
So why not make the homepage a redirect to your User talk:? It would serve the same purposes stated, it saves readers an extra click when heading to your User talk: page, and it avoids the double-take when they see the "This page has been deleted and protected to prevent re-creation" message. (on the more general point, I agree that User: pages are often just an interstitial when most visitors are probably wanting to head to your User talk: page instead) -- Interiot 23:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Jimbo Wales,
I am the original user of Rajsingam & DoDoBirds and shared the passwords with three of my friends as I am busy with my book "German Memories in Asia". As I have some problems over a few edits on Sri Lanka Conflict with them, I think one of them is posting various people which might damage my reputation.
I am not responsible these acts.
I apologize for my carelessness, which caused you, inconvenience.
My personal e-mail for more confirmation: <email removed to prevent spam>
Yours truly,
Rajkumar Kanagasingam 07:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Arcticdawg 10:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Comment on the "top of the charts" thing, by Nysted: Unremarkable it is, from my vantage point, the concept of having notable size on the internet, while lacking reliable sources of information about people in charge here; lacking proven credentials that are seen by consensus in the free world as essential elements for any reliable source of knowledge; somewhat lacking integrity (a kids on MySpace thing) and most surely lacking the respect of many truly notable academics, scholars, and members of the real press. Many things can be on "top of the charts" for a while. That does not make for "good" or "right." It just might be part of a lemmings race to the cliff. IMHO, The Wikipedia community reaction to this episode in history will help set the "benchmark" standard and tone by which this encyclopedia is judged, for many years to come. Lee Nysted 15:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Um, well, please sign my autograph page. :-D A•N•N•Afoxlov e r PLEASE SIGN, ANYONE!!! 14:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
[20].---- Doktor Who 16:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
If someone does something wrong, and someone points out that this is wrong, it isn't a personal attack. I am alarmed at the frequent attacks on those who are right to point out faults. It's bad for Wikipedia if we all we produce for fallen editors is effusive comments about missing them and how great they were, it does nothing to remedy the credibility of our encyclopedia, in fact it makes it worse: we don't acknowledge the problem. ( Bjorn Tipling 18:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
As for myself, my own credentials are 20 years United States Navy (retired), and working on my bachelors degree in history from Middle Tennessee State University, which I will finish by late 2008. I plan on going further than that. Carajou 18:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a minor dispute on Essjay controversy over by what process Essjay actually ended his association with us. Several news sources have quoted you as asking him "to resign", this blog has an email from you stating that you "fired" Essjay. A lawyer editor says that fired is too strong and legally impossible because you knew essjay had lied before you hired him. Can I ask you for a definitive judgement? Was Essjay asked to resign (which presumably leaves open the option to refuse), or was he fired? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Ultimately, this problem still falls on us, the average editor. As editors we got to do our best at making Wikipedia better. But there are still problems related to credibility that have to be resolved, and that has to be taken care of at an administrative level or higher. To that end, I would like to suggest the following:
The editors and junior adminstrators would ensure that each article is up to standards (standards include the quality of writing, grammar, and factual accuracy, among others) prior to being submitted to peer review, which is chaired by the senior editor. The department head has the authority to decide if the article has featured status. When the page is of the highest quality, it should be locked from further editing; the exeption being new information that has been submitted up the chain for review first. Carajou 20:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be that these suggestions are pretty much describing Citizendium. And Wikipedia will face all the problems that Citizendium will face, most especially lack of interest by people who don't want to act as someone else's butt monkey because they happen to have a degree - certainly I would leave if my edits could be reverted solely because some guy had faxed his off wiki credentials to the office. Wikipedia works because it harnesses the sheer workhours and goodwill of hundreds of thousands of people, with no sense of authority. If you start thinking you can organise these people into a disciplined series of departments, you will lose them, simple as and end of. End of Wikipedia. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Like it or not, there's that credibility problem with Wikipedia that's all over the news, and something is going to be done to solve it. Whatever it takes to solve it will be done amicably, or it will be done with a lot of hate and discontent, but it will happen. What I have suggested is certainly not set in stone, and it should be discussed along with other ideas; if any of it is no good, then we toss it aside and do something else. Carajou 02:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Here. RadioKirk ( u| t| c) 22:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, very famous Jimbo Wales! I was wondering if you would ban that bum user Tregoweth, indefinite? Cause he's horrid, he constantly yells & swears at me when I try to tell him the actual facts gets rid of everything I say & blocks me for the wrong reason. If you can get rid of him, my blocks & his protections to articles will expire & me, along with everyone else, can get be free to edit any article, do anything we want & his protections page will be free to edit for anyone. Skymac207 20:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone really wants you to sign her signature book. :-) -- Deskana (talk) (review me please) 01:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is an initial proposal for credential verification.-- Jimbo Wales 03:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it premature to formulate credential verification procedures when it has yet to be determined whether credentials should be presented or valued on Wikipedia? 70.48.206.78 14:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Jimbo Wales,
An editor is continuously vandalising my Bio over dispute related to Talk:Anton Balasingham. The editor tried hard to delete my Bio from wikipedia. You can see the evidence here(1) and here(2)' The editor is taking an undue interest over my Bio and deleted over Citation. I have restored the information. I requested an Administrator to check my Bio whether Citations are enough. Though I have off-line media archives(which are attached on Talk:Rajkumar Kanagasingam, I couldn't bring it to the articles. Now I am very much frustrated. Please help me on this matter. Rajkumar Kanagasingam 04:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Strictly from a feasibility perspective, without getting into desirability, I would urge great caution about any proposal for Wikipedia to certify certain contributers as experts. It's not a simple problem, and contrary to Jimbo's comments, I believe it is important to prepare for worst case situations. Indeed, the EssJay scandal is precisely that. The more reliance the outside world puts on our certification, the greater the temptation for someone to game our system and the more embarrassing a fraudulent certification becomes. I would suggest for now a simple variation of Jimbo's proposal. Those who wish to add outside credentials to their Wikipedia reputation should include a link on their user page to whatever site or sites they feel verifies their bona-fides (e.g. their home page at their place of employment), and add a link from that site back to their Wikipedia user page, or include a statement such as I sometimes edit Wikipedia under the user name "so and so". Other editors could then consider their claim of expertise and add what ever weight they deem appropriate. Most of us will do the right thing -- WP:AGF. My modification to Jimbo's proposal does not require any action on Wikipedia's part, beyond perhaps mentioning the dual link suggestion in some guideline. No new bureaucracy is required. At the very least, before we venture to create an expert certification mechanism, let's vet a few experts on the issues involved with building such a system,-- agr 02:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Jimbo: A debated MfD has been going on about autograph books in userspace. Many of the keep arguements refer to a quote you made about them. Could you please make a comment on the MfD regarding whether autograph books should be deleted? Thank you! Reywas92 Talk 15:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have been told you are not removable from the Wikipedia community. Please advise the process if you are. Your stonewalling of legitimate questions [21] asked by Larry Sanger, the creator of Wikipedia, is just one of several reasons I am asking you this question here on your talk page. It appears that the process for your removal is not known by anyone if such a process exists so I am hoping you are able and willing to share that information. 64.229.64.59 23:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, the simple answer is NO. Mistakes have been made here, and he is the right man for the job of guiding this ship through some rough waters. Just as Steve Jobs is the right man for Apple, Jimbo is the right guy at the tiller, here today. Lee Nysted 23:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's not conflate the questions on whether Jimmy Wales can be removed, and whether he should be removed. My guesstimate for the former is that perhaps he can be removed from his position at Wikimedia Foundation (and consequently Wikipedia) by the organization's board of governors or their equivalent. But I don't pretend to be an expert on the topic (no allusion intended!) and you'll have to read up the Florida state laws governing non-profit charitable organisations. As to the question of whether he should be removed, in my humble evaluation the answer of most wikipedians is obvious, but since that is not what you asked and I cannot back my opinion with reliable sources, I'll withhold further speculation. I would also request other editors to resist the temptation to address the unasked "should question. Regards. Abecedare 01:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to share a couple of brief paragraphs minus prying eyes.
Often, users do not know the approximate keywords let alone the specific search criteria in order to provide the results they need.
Failed at commercializing such a thing in 2000 because it was not about the money, it was about providing the best product possible and not being compromised by profit. Inadequate keyword search results as well as inappropriate content provided by WebCrawler, Ask Jeeves, AOL, and Lycos infuriated me.
Can we communicate by email?
Paradoxos 20:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I think any new policy that enforces any kind of credential checking is completely contrary to the fundamental “edit this page” philosophy of Wikipedia. Efforts should be made to verify the information added to Wikipedia rather than the credentials of the individuals who are adding the information. Perhaps, there should be an official policy of anonymity and not allowing any users to state any educational background…? If Wikipedia is all about accurate information and comprehensive reference citing, why should we even be discussing what degrees people have? Katalaveno T C 03:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The dishonesty and self-deception involved in thinking you're not relying on credentials when you cite some "outside" source, is breathtaking. Wake up. What this really means is that you won't believe some fact I as an editor give you about (say) anesthetic action in horses, but you would believe it if backed by a cite I gave you to a paper published J. Vet. Anesthesiology. Even if I wrote the paper I'm citing. But that only means I got THEM to believe me (partly based on my credentials) whereas I couldn't get YOU to believe me directly. To the extent that you've relied on the journal's fact-checking, you're relied on THEIR credibility. You see the problem? You claim credibility's worth nothing in factual debates, but you really use it all the time, in wikipedia's present policy. You're willing to trade and trust on the credibility of EVERY institution and person BUT the primary one in front of you, which is the wikipedia editor who asserts a fact. That's a big problem. There's nothing magic about the fact that a fact is published someplace out in the real world in some "reliable source," except that somebody's credentials out there are backing it. It's not the ink you're putting your trust in, it's somebody's CREDENTIALS. Don't you see? Wikipedia's already based on a tower of credentialism and credentialist thinking, then a layer of shifting sand. And you complain of elitism when I suggest taking away some of the sand. LOL. S B H arris 21:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Essjay claimed to have a doctorate but didn't, yet he traded on that claim in content disputes.
And that's why people are mad. right?
User:Mantanmoreland claims to be a 20-something Irish Catholic MBA candidate, and frequently trades on those bona fides when involved in content disputes relating to controversial busiess topics and anti-Semitism.
In reality, User:Mantanmoreland is a Jewish 50-something with a 30-year-old journalism degree. Is this situation worth getting upset about? -- Two Toed Sloth 07:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, are you able to attend a meetup in Adelaide when you are here in April? We thought we should try and have one then if you can make it. Other Australian Wikipedian's are also wondering about Meetups in their cities. Alex Sims 11:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Template:Linkimage has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Jeff G. 23:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I have a complaint about the un-Wiki attitude I found on Wikinews. I contribute a lot the Commons, and the English, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, German, French and Portugese Wikipedias. I take high-quality images of people, places and things wherever I go, but I mostly concentrate on those in New York City. Recently, when I photographed Angela Bassett and Courtney Vance I stood with the press, even though I didn't possess press credentials. The only project that offers such credentials is Wikinews. So I asked here if they'd issue credentials, offered to get photographs for news stories they are working on, and was met either with commendations but a "prove yourself" attitude, or in the case of one user, a flippant, "I cast you aside with the rest of the hordes" response. This mentality seems to be completely against what the Wikimedia Foundation stands for. It confounds me my extensive contributions on all these projects means so little because I had yet to involve myself with one more. I'm not saying they don't have a point behind their reasoning, but I gave them more than enough evidence of what I could contribute. Any way, I am only writing to alert you to what I see is a problem on one of the projects. Also, it would be helpful to the projects as a whole if we could get some kind of "press corps" accreditation the whole of the community could use. And thank you for everything you've done - you certainly have added a lot of satisfaction to my life. -- DavidShankBone 02:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
According to The Age newapaper [23] you are about to visit Melbourne. Do you want to meet with Melbourne wikipedians? Maybe you can provide an input on Wikipedia:Meetup/Melbourne#Jimbo? Alex Bakharev 01:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a comment left on my TALK page from a person who says he's a German Wikipedian, and that the German version already is somewhat authoritarian when it comes to credentials (maybe they're working on a harmonized EU version even now, hah). Anyway, I thought the comment deserved more exposure and I'm reposting it here. If it turns out to be a hoax, anybody who knows more about this is free to delete with prejudice. If not, it represents another interesting viewpoint. S B H arris 04:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi am from Germany and after the Essjay skandal i had a closer look on the english wikipedia and read your postings. The differnces are quite fascinating. The german wikipeda, the second bigest wikipedia in size, is ruled by experts. To proof my point have a look on homeopathy http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hom%C3%B6opathie#Kritik_an_der_Hom.C3.B6opathie in the german wikipedia chapter 5 is named Criticism 5.1 no proof of efficacy 5.2 no plausible mechanism 5.3 internal contradictions 5.4 dangers 5.5 miscellaneous criticism. This chapter has a very strong scientific POV and there is just one lousy weblink is in it as reference. If someone comes around in the discussion page and says: "hey this is POV!" the physicans will say: "So what?" and if he writes "There are no refernces in the critism chapter so i doubt it is correct." The physicans will say: "Well i am Physican i know that this is right, so you have to prove ME that it is not correct.". Also there is no need for consenses, the german wikipedia doesn't have that rule and in the AfD it is not a vote but an exchange of arguments and even if a majority like 70% says keep, the admin will delete the article if he is the arguments for deletion are stronger in his opinion. I wonder if germans tend to authoric systems more so that there wiki is authoric too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.133.146.6 ( talk) 01:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't know about your citation rules, but I know the German WP, since I'm sysop there and wrote a lot of articles there. And I can only say that the point made by the IP user above is completely exaggerated. Maybe s/he is upset about something there and now tries to push through his/her point via Meta or via Jimbo Wales' talk page. Anyway, we also have a strong need to have citations or at least sources given for POV or critical statements. I think that this should be clear anyway. Nevertheless, it is true that we trust users with scientific background more than it might be done in en.wp. (And in most cases the identity IS proven, because most scientific users work under their real name or at least write their name on their user pages or visit regular WP meetings or have a confirmed mail address where you can easily ask for the identity.) It is true that sysops on de.wp are given the authority to decide AFDs. If I work through AFDs I look for discussion contribs of specialist users who are experienced in the respective topic and whose opinion I can trust, if I don't have an idea of the topic myself. It is true that articles are sometimes deleted (or kept) also if much more than 50% are against this decision, but you also have to see that sockpuppetry and vote promotion on talk pages is very common on de.wp and thus often groups of people who share an opinion are discussing on the AFD page where the more neutral and outside people just ignore AFDs of topics where they don't have an idea of. So often you have four or five {keep} votes of people who know each other and who probably informed each other to vote there and no other opinions. What shall we do? Shall we keep the article if it is in a very bad quality and doesn't contain relevant information, just because a small group of people want that? Or shall we rather delete it to improve the quality of the wiki? I would strongly sign for the latter one. So I don't see us breaking rules and I think you should not form a view about it until you went to de.wiki, worked there or looked at all the discussions. The next point is that we try to have as little rules as possible to ease things. That should not mean that we don't have rule fetishists there, too... Probably the will to have rules for every single piece of doing is the worst German quality and belongs to our mentality and we are now trying to avoid that a little bit. ;o) That's just my opinion. Sorry, Jimbo, for inundating your talk page. Greetings, -- Thogo (Talk) 11:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jimbo. I took a look at the Conservapedia article today and noticed a quote from you regarding Conservapedia which, upon first reading it, I agreed with in principle (while also personally considering Conservapedia's policy to be misguided). It reads "Free culture knows no bounds . . . We welcome the reuse of our work to build variants." [24] I took a look at the talk page thereafter and noticed a subsection that I believe might be of interest to you. A Wikipedia editor noted that s/he thought that Conservapedia was copying a Wikipedia article and that s/he did not believe that Conservapedia uses the GFDL for its content. After a bit of looking, I reached the same conclusion; I see no evidence that Conservapedia releases its content under the GFDL, nor does the website appear to have any copyright policy at all right now. Thus, it seems that they perhaps default to the statutory copyright regime, at least for now, which is certainly incompatible with "free culture" and informational sharing.
That said, I wonder if you would consider retracting or amending your statment on Conservapedia, or at least consider their approach to copyright if asked to comment about Conservapedia in the future? Thanks. · j e r s y k o talk · 14:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that users who had been granted the "checkuser" bit were not anonymous to the foundation as this information is so sensitive and could put people in real danger if misused (ie Chinese editors). After the Essjay incident it is obvious that I was mistaken in that impression. Can you confirm that the identity of all those who have this access is known and verified by the foundation? I apologise if I am repeating a question that has been already answered but trawling the archives of this page and others I have not been able to find a definitive statement on this point. Sophia 07:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, we have a problem. Hundreds of users' autograph pages are being deleted. Those users have worked hard on their autograph pages. Please contact me on my user talk page here. Also see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Autograph_pages. This is serious. Please help us. Signed, A•N•N•Afoxlov e r 20:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, I don't know if you have a policy on this and I know Portuguese isn't one of your skills. Even so, there has been a perennial discussion on the portuguese wikipedia whether or not to "keep alowing edits from IPs" (unregistered users). I believe this is contrary to the spirit of wikipedia, and in the maybe-not-so-long run hurtful to the project. There are already heavy restrictions on voting rights (45 days from registration and 100 "good" edits) that were approved in 2005. Anyway, if you feel that you should say something there, the village pump equivalent is [ here]. One sad Portuguese, Galf 09:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for asking this here, but I believe that this is the only place that it can be brought up, since it was you that made the decision to not allow "with permission" licenses. Here's the issue: the International Symbol of Access (that wheelchair logo you see everywhere) is copyrighted. Its conditions of use essentially make it a "with-permission" image; the only place where fair use applies is on the International Symbol of Access article itself. At Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? I discussed this with other users, and made a free replacement - Image:Wheelchair.svg - that the uses of the copyrighted symbol have been replaced with. I do agree, however, with many of the people that commented that this seems pretty silly: the symbol is an international standard that people recognize. Can you please offer your view either here or at Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? Thank you. -- NE2 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that many publicists of notable persons would be willing to give out high-quality CC-BY-SA portraits if they were contacted directly by the Foundation, and informed of how this would improve their client's Wikipedia articles. Perhaps a form letter could be prepared, and Wikipedians could suggest different persons to be contacted about. Thanks for your consideration of this.-- Pharos 07:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo, I don't know if you have a policy on this and I know Portuguese isn't one of your skills. Even so, there has been a perennial discussion on the portuguese wikipedia whether or not to "keep alowing edits from IPs" (unregistered users). I believe this is contrary to the spirit of wikipedia, and in the maybe-not-so-long run hurtful to the project. There are already heavy restrictions on voting rights (45 days from registration and 100 "good" edits) that were approved in 2005. Anyway, if you feel that you should say something there, the village pump equivalent is [ here]. One sad Portuguese, Galf 09:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for asking this here, but I believe that this is the only place that it can be brought up, since it was you that made the decision to not allow "with permission" licenses. Here's the issue: the International Symbol of Access (that wheelchair logo you see everywhere) is copyrighted. Its conditions of use essentially make it a "with-permission" image; the only place where fair use applies is on the International Symbol of Access article itself. At Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? I discussed this with other users, and made a free replacement - Image:Wheelchair.svg - that the uses of the copyrighted symbol have been replaced with. I do agree, however, with many of the people that commented that this seems pretty silly: the symbol is an international standard that people recognize. Can you please offer your view either here or at Wikipedia talk:Fair use#The wheelchair logo is copyrighted; what should we use instead? Thank you. -- NE2 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Please archive this page. Its size is 289 KB! Thank you. -- Meno25 01:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Just letting you know that I sent you and Brad Patrick an email on this situation. It needs attention ASAP as this user is threatening legal action. And since she is a lawyer, I'm pretty certain it's legitimate. -- Woohookitty Woohoo! 06:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Donwarnersaklad ( talk • contribs) 15:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC).
I have never understood why a contributor of information, someone, who wanted to share his knowledge with this community, would keep his identity anonymous. How credible can information be, where the author is not willing to stay by his point? Britta Scholz, Student at SDU Odense, Denmark —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.225.156.121 ( talk • contribs)
My curriculum vitae at Wikipedia is the sum total of my edits, and Wikipedia is highly transparent. "Wetman" may not be my real name, but I am scarcely anonymous here. Like everyone else, I put my reputation on the line with every edit. -- Wetman 05:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Jimbo Wales, you still think that an apology is enough? You still say that you "request his resignation". You should have the moral courage to say that he has been banned for his glaring deception. Don't you think that it is now required that all the articles written/reviewed/edited by him should be re-examined now or removed from wikipedia.
You say that wikipedia is build on trust but you don't seem to really care about building and maintaining it.
I haven't read his edits, but I read he used false credentials to impress upon others. Have you read all? Are you willing to take responsibility to answer those who might be misguided by Ryan Jordan's misinformed words. I want Mr. Wales to state that next time this sort of thing happens he wouldn't jump to defend some liar just because he has been a long time contributor to Wikipedia. I want him to make a plan that it doesn't happen again. I want him to make a plan to find out who else is doing the same thing Ryan Jordan was doing. I want Wikipedia community to show their contempt for lying and liars. I want them to stop praising impostors and show their allegiance to truth and accuracy of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.115.151 ( talk • contribs)
There is a problem when I upload something. When I upload material, it stay the same. I even upload it again it, it there. P.S. Please talk to me on my user page. Jet123 11:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have doubts my contribution will be valued in light of the code-worded suggestion at the top of this page encouraging deletion of comments that make "the community" uncomfortable by letting it see itself through the eyes of others. Nonetheless, I submit that due diligence on the part of Wikimedia Foundation leadership could easily have averted this scandal. That Essjay lied about his credentials on Wikipedia might not be something anyone could have prevented under current policy. What shed light on the dishonesty was when Essjay showed up as an employee of the closely related for-profit Wikia, Inc.
The scandal was not that Essjay cooked his credentials, but that the co-founder and a former board member of Wikimedia hired him and kept company with him but either did not know or did not care about his dishonesty. If Essjay was a tenured professor, how could someone with a masters degree believe he had time to take an entry level job at a dot-com start-up? According to the New York Times, Wales thought it was okay for Essjay to operate an online identity that includes false claims of professional credentials. (What an odd morality Wikipedia breeds -- one false identity is okay, but two is evil "sockpuppetry") Then Wales accepted Essjay's apology for the harm that resulted from something Wales thought was okay to do. That might settle it for Wales, but he needs to consider that it might not settle it for other reasonable adults. The irresponsibility those involved ask us to ignore -- in the interest of avoiding personal attacks or for whatever reason --- approaches absurd.
Wales knew or should have known that he hired someone who publicly lied about his credentials. Instead, we the public are asked to believe that it simply doesn't matter, and that our offense at being lied to is somehow an offense against Wikipedia, rather than a reaction to an offense against our integrity as readers by key Wikipedia personnel. Telling us at the outset not to be offended by wrong information does not resolve the offensiveness of wrong information. We are told time and again that Wikipedia is a community that knows each other through their project activities, but we discovered that a co-founder of the project did not even know his own employees and was mislead or participated with the employee in misleading others about the identity and credentials of the employee.
As par usual, if we don't have some standing in the so-called community, our reaction as public readers to this scandal is as likely to be met with claims that we are at fault for calling offensive dishonesty offensive dishonesty as we are to be offered an apology and a detailed forthright disclosure of what he knew and when he knew it from the former chairman of the board who hired this person in a closely related for-profit venture without challenging the false credentials the employee used to boost his reputation. Once again, the public is blamed for caring about integrity, while those who exposed lack of integrity are treated with derision by those who participated in compromising integrity of the project. Of course I'm offended. There are times when this project needs to stop trying to blame a fictional abusive other, and to admit the black eye is a result of it tripping over its own feet because it's not watching where it is going. MetaNoble 00:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jimmy, We, Wikipedians from Indian diaspora wants to hear about your Indian experience. We expect to hear your tale as soon as the Essjay problem subsided. Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.13.233.2 ( talk) 11:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
Hi Jimbo, please create a User Page in Wikipedia en Español. URUTORAMAN MEBIUSU You need aid? 17:38, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Should we make Wikipedia harder from people who are vandalists or etc., like a special test? Trampton 12:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
Larry Sanger; "I'm going to ask just one more time, and then I am going to leave it alone, because I have far better things to do, with the launch of the Citizendium approaching. Jimmy, if I may--what mistake, precisely, do you admit to making? Before you answer, let me clarify the question. I know you say, "It was a mistake for me not to check the facts," and "Making up a set of impressive credentials is of course a violation of people's trust." This seems to imply that you did not know that Essjay had made up his impressive credentials, and the mistake you admit to making is this: you didn't bother to check out Essjay's impressive credentials. If that's your answer, I want to point out some facts. Essjay started as an employee in your company in early January, so his Wikia page history says. Surely you found out about his fraud then. Didn't you? Or did you actually hire him still thinking that he was a tenured professor of theology? (Why on Earth would a tenured professor want to come to work for Wikia?) Look, either you hired him thinking he was a tenured professor, or you hired him knowing he was a fraud. There wasn't a third option. I think, Jimmy, that people are desperately hoping for honesty and a meaningful apology from you. That will require an explanation of why you hired him and why you put him on ArbCom when you had to know he was a fraud--when you had to know that he wasn't the tenured professor he claimed to be. Otherwise just come out and say this: I really believed that Essjay was a tenured professor of theology when I hired him, and when I promoted him to ArbCom, and when I told The New Yorker that he was just using a pseudonym and I didn't care about that. This is, I promise, the last you'll hear from me about this. If anyone is going to hold your feet to the flames on this, it won't be me. I have to admit I'm just too disgusted to care anymore. --Larry Sanger 05:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)