(The following has been copied from above in the belief that you missed it because I neglected to start a new section for it. — Mi r a 09:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC))
And here's batch eight: 1 2 3 4 — Mi r a 06:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi GTBacchus, In case you ever find yourself with a userbox that needs migrating to userspace, feel free to add it to the archive at User:Rfrisbie/Userbox. If you do so, please also link it to one of the directories at User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes. If you know of someone else who might be looking for a place to migrate a userbox, feel free to pass this offer along to them as well. Regards, Rfrisbie talk 17:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I seem to have come along on the tale end of an external link war at Hookah. Problem is, following WP:EL neither of the two links that were being fought over should be allowed to stay-- they're forums. Could you please weigh in at Talk:Hookah? Many thanks, -- Mwanner | Talk 23:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I apologise as well to start this all back up again, Bacchus. But it seems to me that the rules do not state to always avoid forums. So what qualifies a forum as un-linkable? The point is to provide a reliable source of information? If we succumb to every little over exaggeration of the rules, we avoid this point. As it stands the people viewing the page in the first place wanted a forum, the second one was to keep that avenue un-biased, and being that matter was already settled previously I fail to grasp the point of what Mwanner is doing. What does it mean if someone goes re-writing rules to be exacts and certainties in every respect just on a whim? In the spirit of freedom and un-censored informational outlets, I urge you to reconsider. The matter may seem small, but the message is anything but. I just think if the guidelines say we should, but not that we should never, what is the exemption? I think our situation was the perfect example of an exemption, as they were posted to keep the avenues of information open and unbiased. Perhaps a debate in discussion should be posed, and the viewers should be allowed to decide? I apologise again for bothering you, Bacchus, and hope I haven't been too out of line. Kuriohara 07:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I have talked to User:Esaborio for a few days, and it seems his objection to the inclusion is based on the idea that Iraq "didnt really have ties to terror." I have told him this is irrelevant. He has admitted that the War on Terrorism is against those the USA sees as terrorists, and that the USA saw Iraq as a state sponsor of terror. But he continues to revert war. I think this is pretty much what Nescio is at, though he has been trying to get me and Zer0 in trouble for reverting his edits to Wikipedia:WOT and hasnt really talked about the issue itself since the month began. Where does this put us? I really dont see any legitimate objections, it seems to just be the knee jerk no Bush cant be right reaction that they cant get passed, when in reality it has nothing to do with Bush being right... he could have been lying about everything and its still a part of the campaign. Or in the case of Nescio, its simply a refusal to work with me or Zer0, and even you as he has dodged your question for the past week. But do we still have to humor this sort of stuff, and not implement a consensus? Rangeley 18:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
A Userbox redirect request... What do you think? Rfrisbie talk 20:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
On July 8, 2006, Jimbo proposed for deletion Wikipedia:Userboxes/Beliefs with a prod reason of "per the emerging consensus that the German solution is best". See [1]. I've posted this to WP:JOU, WT:GUS, the userbox location straw poll, and to Rfrisbie. GRBerry 02:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Rfrisbie
talk
03:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi GTBacchus,
While I was in the middle of bypassing a redirect from Template:User soul to {{ User:UBX/Soul}}, the redirect page was deleted. I'm sure this is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. Would you be willing to investigate this for me? Rfrisbie talk 05:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
For being level-headed. I have a problem in dealing with people who are willing to act unilaterally like this, especially when they have no real desire to communicate. As you being the most level-headed, my question is this though: If they can't properly explain why we get to ignore policy in this, and other cases (like other Usenet articles), what do we do with the article? Whether or not the topic is notable, I can't justify its keep unsourced, and it doesn't appear if they're about to let me ensure that only properly sourced material remains.-- Crossmr 21:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Pls unblock my account, I am ready to use it again. Thanks SIB
Something that you said (and repeated a few times) made me wonder, so I checked. From what you said, I half expected to find complaints about me all over WP:ANI. Actually I found very few, in view of the number of disputes I deal with. The most recent seemed to be SPUI deciding that using WP:ANI as a megaphone would be preferable to actually approaching me personally. I agreed at once that calling him a troll had been out of order. Before that was, a few weeks ago now, Fahrenheit451 not liking being warned about his personal attacks on Terryeo. And the Alienus thing of course, which you know. And apart from the people who get fidgety if someone edits their signatures that's about it. I'm doing a lot of stuff on AfD and DRV at the moment, but that's not making a noise outside DRV, and things there seem to be moving very much in the right direction. . The usual moans about unorthodox closes, but 'nothing we haven't seen before. I think the signature people have given up complaining, which is nice.
So by and large I think you were exaggerating quite a bit. -- Tony Sidaway 07:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
3 contribs and the writer creates this in a single edit. Might be worth checking to ensure its not recreation of deleted content.-- Crossmr 15:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I moved this from above again, don't worry about leaving me waiting or anything, I've been happily editing away elsewhere. — Mi ra 10:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's batch number eleven: 1 2 3 4 5 — Mi ra 13:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Since you're interested in this topic, I thought you might like to give input on this new page I created born of a discussion on WP:RS. Wikipedia:Guidelines for Blog Citation, our aim is to create good objective guidelines that can be used to test whether or not a blog can be used as reference and what the scope of that reference can be.-- Crossmr 21:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Apparently mediation does not improve the current conflict I have with this user. Since I am at my wits end I have filed a case at ArbCom. This is to notify you should you wish to comment there. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 11:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
No, updating it, we have changed our name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joebb11 ( talk • contribs) 11:40, July 20, 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we will be updating our web site soon.
See http://ddh.atomizeus.co.uk/ for our new web site.
I just wanted to stop in and say thanks for your involvement in the ED article. Even if I disagree with your judgement, your method of discussion is far more helpful then what has been going on there in the past couple of days. I'm sure your intervention will help bring about a civil, well-thought out decision as to the direction of the article. See you in the ED talk page, Karwynn (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please read this, and consider changing your mind about whether or not I was "fishing" for an IP confirmation. Karwynn (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've seen numerous articles where someone tries to push PoV disputed content over and over and is subsequently blocked for vandalism, and i've seen such behaviour referred to as vandalism multiple times. Perhaps thats just a poor choice of words on the part of the blocking admin.-- Crossmr 06:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
After that day in Cleethorpes? How could I ever forget? LOL!
How's the god of wine?
XXX-- Galaxybabe 22:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the word "none" traditionally takes the number of the word in which modifies it, and is not strictly singular or plural in number. I should have explained that in the edit summary rather than just doing a quick VP revert, so I apologize for that. -- H·G ( words/ works) 06:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I was just looking through all of the userboxes I've moved, and I think we've taken care of all the ones I did improperly. Thank you so much for all of your help. — Mi ra 04:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi again, it is telling me you've left me a new message but I can't find out where it is :-/ I am adding BBC news links to the "Recent Deaths" section, just to see if I can ;-) I have no idea how to sign off my name, - I saw the thing in brackets but I don't know what a & and the numbers mean??? I will try ~~Galaxybabe~~ but I am not sure that will work. Have a great day! Hugs, Annie/GB
Edit: Well - that didn't work so let's try: Galaxybabe 08:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
Woo-Hoo! Galaxybabe 08:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
Your clock is wrong by the way, it's not 08:58 in England, it's 09.59 (10:00am now) Galaxybabe 08:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
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I'm a bit surprised by your comments on this discussion. The page was an obvious speedy and no discussion was merited (indeed, discussion could only draw more attention to the attack). -- Tony Sidaway 12:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I see you've recently edited Wikipedia talk:No original research. User talk:01001 seems to be grinding an axe about OR (with regards to Talk:Fox News Channel controversies), on Wikipedia talk:No original research and elsewhere. This user recently had a bunch of OR edits to Human height reverted [2], whereupon he (nine minutes later) deleted a paragraph [3] explaining on the talk page that "it is OR" [4] because he felt that a study cited in the paragraph (published in American Journal of Epidemiology) did not accurately support the statement being made (generalizing childhood disease effects to the general population). It seems that this editor has a thing about OR and V, and I suspect his deletions are a WP:POINT. In any case I restored the four sentence paragraph, with a bit of rewrite, and added two more published papers (each sentence in the section now supported by a seperate reference), and he reverted again, deleting the entire section [5] with the complaint that the one reference was off the point. His complaint is off the point, and he clearly hasn't read the text he reverted. Pete.Hurd 06:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi again :-) Yes I figured out the signature :-P although I can't see me being seduced by this place, I still have a lot of articles to write for h2g2. I'm doing well, I'm now a sub-ed and Scout, and I have 66 solo edited entries with 7 *pending*. We have badges for our Personal Space now, to display "25 edited entries" and 50 and 75 and 100. When we reach a hundred, we get to design the Front Page for a day! <grin> Galaxybabe 11:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
Was reading your comments on this topic and you asked how you would go about removing something if you felt that it was directly harming wikipedia. The answer is incredibly simple yet purplsely avoided in my honest opinion. You simply return to Jimbo and seek further clarification and explaination of T1 and T2 to the point where absolutely nobody could misread the policy. Curious how admins are happier to take it as it currently is, such that it is ambiguous enough to use when it suits them but when given a clear path to make it absolute they refuse to do it... my educated guess is that they would be afraid they couldn't continue deleting things from their own POV if they had it clarified. Care to prove me wrong? Enigmatical 22:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for getting back to me. In order to convince someone of something, there has to at least be room for convincing. There is no use in trying to convince someone who is adamant before anything has been said. A person wishing to stick to a particular point of view will never change that point of view because being subjective, we humans can find whatever we like to support our own goals and agendas. Just as you wont convince me they don't believe, I wont convince you that they do... to then argue people need to be convinced is done specifically becuase you already know the answer to that. Funny how you construct the answer to specifically meet your own POV... is that what a good administrator should do?
You have your own photo on wikipedia and it is in the photobook. Don't you consider it a complete and total contradiction to do something as "frivilous" as that and then bemoan how useless userboxes are? I see people playing hangman, doing personal topics and many other things here... so why do userboxes get the flack? I believe that until you are consistent in your POV, and that you automatically share your view with all things on Wikipedia that are frivilous then you truely don't have a right to be "divisive" against one particular aspect of wikipedia.
Prove to me first that you are open-minded and willing to accept all possibilities, and I will gladly share with you what my point of view is in the hope of finding a proper solution. (in return I will also be open minded in listening to why it should be removed, and why it should be done in contrast to other useless content). Deal? Enigmatical 03:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
(Outdenting) I'll go ahead and reply here, to help keep the discussion together. First, there's your statement: I do feel uncomfortable that the against option can only think in binary and that userboxes can only go, and that there is no compromise. Calling an exterminator to get rid of pests in one's house is also an example of binary thinking. So is cutting off a rotting limb. They're still both good ideas. I realize that I haven't yet explained how userboxes are like a pest or a rotting limb.
Next you suggest that my "maybe" could be less than completely honest. It's not a very strong "maybe". It can be expanded to "maybe there's a way to do that, but I sure as hell haven't seen it, and I can't seem to think of it, but there's always stuff I haven't seen or thought of in this world." It's kind of like if you had a malignant tumor in your body. You'd want to have it cut out, I imagine, and if someone really pressed you on the point - are your sure it has to go, are you sure there isn't a way you could keep it around, despite the harm you feel it's doing? You might say "maybe", but I think it would be a pretty guarded maybe, contingent on new information that you're not really expecting to appear. I think if there were a way to separate userboxes from the problems I have with them, someone might have thought of it sometime in the last 8 months, but I'm willing to keep listening. Meanwhile, I think it would be folly to put off excising the tumor on the grounds that some reason for keeping it in might come up tomorrow. Remember that as far as I can see right now, userboxes are actively harming Wikipedia, while we're talking. I'm open to being shown otherwise, but until then, wouldn't I be silly to pretend that I'm less convinced than I am?
Next, you ask how I can have an opinion about what it means to be a Wikipedian when the discussion hasn't yet happened. The thing is, that discussion has happened, for a lot of people, and its results are all over the Wikipedia namespace. Where the discussion hasn't happened is in the context of userbox deletion discussions, because people haven't really recognized that those discussions are actually about what Wikipedia means. People think the discussions are about all kinds of other red herrings, like vote-stacking, or freedom of speech, to use one example from each side. So, I've done a lot of thinking, and I've arrived at a conclusion. It's not a train of thought that's very easy to reduce to a simple soundbyte, but I am able to articulate it, and have done so, more or less sucessfully on a couple of occasions. When I did, others agreed with me that I was articulating the same vision Jimbo has been promoting, and various supportive comments led me to believe that I'm not alone in the way I'm thinking. I find it very clear and compelling. In response to your question: if someone shows me that I've been wrong about what it means to be a Wikipedian, or about how that applies to userboxes, and that userboxes are actually consistent with the best vision of what Wikipedia is, then of course I'll switch my support to that side. I'd be crazy not to.
Moving along, you assert that Wikipedia is a community. I wouldn't put it that way. I'd emphasize that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and it's only a community insofar as that serves the ultimate aim, which is writing the encyclopedia. Any aspect of the community that starts to work against our fundamental project is unnecessary, unwanted, and needs to go. Once we start treating the community as an end in itself, we risk losing sight of our goal. The Wikipedia community is not what all those people have been donating money to support, and I refuse to betray them. Our job here is to write a free, comprehensive, neutral encyclopedia.
There are things happening at Wikipedia that make no obvious contribution to the project. You mention the facebook - it's contribution is very minor and we could easily live without it, but I can't see that it does any harm. BJAODN is also unencyclopedic, but it does no harm, and it's fun. Hangman is another fun diversion, but in the interest of not turning into a games Wiki, I think we should really draw the line at fun things that have something to do with the encyclopedia. In my estimation, BJAODN is good to keep by that criterion; hangman, not so much. Some userboxes are related to writing the encyclopedia, and many others could be argued as relevant, but at that point they also stop being harmless. Once they're damaging to the project, there's no excuse for keeping them. I suspect our disagreement is over whether they're damaging.
You state: It has already acknowledged that user pages can have content which is seperate from the serious side of wikipedia and userboxes simply continue that trend. To then say they give the wrong impression of wikipedia, yet allow user pages with colourful content, personal pictures, hangman, otehr games and everything else seems to me to be isolating one specific thing (ie thus having an agenda). I must point out that you're not understanding where I'm coming from. First though, have a look at WP:USER: Generally, you should avoid substantial content on your user page that is unrelated to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a general hosting service, so your user page is not a personal homepage. Your page is about you as a Wikipedian.
Now, onto the real central point. WP:USER says: Your page is about you as a Wikipedian. Now let's talk about what it means to give the wrong impression of Wikipedia. It has nothing to do with colorful content, or personal pictures, or hangman. It has to do with a misunderstanding of our neutrality policy. Political userboxes help undermine our basic philosophy of NPOV. I'm going to explain that in more detail, but I hope it's clear that the reason I'm "isolating one specific thing" is because it's that one specific thing that's doing the specific kind of damage I'm worried about, and about which we still haven't talked. My "agenda" is to protect Wikipedia against a very specific form of cancer, to which hangman doesn't contribute one bit.
Your next point is to question whether my actions back up my words. That's easy. First of all, for most of the summer, I haven't had an internet connection - look at my July and August contributions, compared to the preceding months. Before that, do you know who started, and made a huge chunk of contributions to Wikipedia:T1 and T2 debates? That's right, I did, and not just editing arguments on my own side either. I put days and days of my life towards trying to get people to talk to each other, and to actually look at the points being made by others with an eye towards understanding, and not just arguing against. Did you notice the multiple times I called out Tony Sidaway for failing to properly respect the other side of the debate? I typed thousands of words trying to drum up consensus for what I thought, and still believe, is right. I found it pretty difficult to get anyone else to contribute energy towards actually exploring the central issue; everyone was having too much fun running up blind alleys, and I was still working on how to untangle all the arguments. Now, it's September, and most people have walked away from the whole userbox affair, and I'm still bothering to type thousands of words to support the view that I still believe is correct. I'm still fleshing out what the best arguments are for what I believe, and I intend to promote them far and wide when I've figured out what they are, and if those best arguments turn out to be arguments in favor of userboxes, then I'll be there, promoting userboxes - although I'm not expecting that, because I still find the arguments against userboxes pretty damn compelling.
For what I hope is the last time, can we please stop trying to make this discussion one about my honesty or sincerity? Have you noticed that I haven't once mentioned or alluded to your motives? Can we please focus on the topic of whether or not userboxes hurt Wikipedia, please? At least can you wait until after you've found out what my position is to question my motives for holding it? Because you're making it abundantly clear that you still don't know what my argument is. I'm not surprised you have misconceptions about my beliefs; please find out what I believe before making ad hominem arguments, ok?
So, we're nearly to the point, which is the specific way in which userboxes are harmful. First though, I'll just register a couple of replies to your last paragraph. You say "I fail to understand how this is a cultural problem". That's because you still don't know what I'm claiming the problem is. We'll be there in a paragraph or two. Secondly, I have nothing to say in support of uncommunicative admins refusing to discuss their out-of-process deletions. I think that's fucked up: not deleting out-of-process, which has its place, but refusing to discuss, which in my opinion is very much wrong, and I've expressed that to several of the admins in question on more than one occasion. I agree that administrative dickishness is a problem, and that it gives the wrong impression of Wikipedia, and encourages others to be dicks as well, and I find this to be one of the major problems facing Wikipedia. Userboxes are the most visible aspect of another one of the major problems facing Wikipedia.
OK! Now check it out. WP:USER says that your user page is about who you are as a Wikipedian. This is consistent with how your userpage will be viewed by observers, because it's the homepage of your Wikipedia account, not your MySpace account. Now, on a page that's about you as a Wikipedian, if you declare "This user is a Republican", you're saying that you, as a Wikipedian, are a Republican. In other words, you're saying that when you edit Wikipedia, you consider your being a Republican part of your approach. Whether or not this is what you mean, this is how it comes across. It encourages others to bring their biases to Wikipedia and set up shop as an Atheist or a Trans-humanist, or a supporter of Palestinian independence, or whatever.
Now this next point is important: there are two ideas about what neutrality might mean. It might mean that a bunch of biased people come together and edit as representatives of their bias, and since all biases are represented in relative proportions, we end up with some kind of average, which must be neutral. On the other hand, it might mean that we try our best to pursue neutrality on an individual basis. We grant that it's not possible for someone to be entirely neutral - in fact, we repeat that like a mantra - and we each individually strive to rise above our biases with each edit, acknowledging that we're bound to fail again and again and again.
I hope it's clear that I'm saying the second model is the preferable one. Now, it's entirely possible for someone to agree with me about that model, and yet think they're doing a service to NPOV by advertising their likely biases with userboxes. This is the disclosure of bias argument, and it makes a certain amount of sense. What it fails to take into account is the appearance projected to outsiders, because of the powerful nature of a colored box with the words "this user is a...." as a viral meme. First of all, they look like little badges, and they appeal to our instict to make collections of colorful little objects. This is not harmful in itself, except that it means that, if there are a few userboxes around today, there will be more tomorrow: they tend to increase unless they're given clearly prescribed limits.
Secondly, and this is the rub, they indicate that your identity as a Wikipedian is in terms of your biases. They're effectively a welcome sign targeted directly at people who would like to edit Wikipedia from a particular biased perspective. They say to those people "yeah, what you want to do is really how Wikipedia works, and we welcome you to bring your agenda here and operate from it." In fact, we don't welcome that. We don't want people to make contributions that fly directly in the face of our NPOV policy. The more people rely on Wikipedia as a source of information, which is more and more each day, the more people with strong agendas would love to bend our articles away from neutrality and towards their world-view. We have to vigilantly keep Wikipedia de-politicized. It's very hard to do, and it really doesn't make it easier when we make it look as appealing as possible to partisans, by projecting the message that being a partisan Wikipedian is the main idea.
People's eyes are drawn more towards a patch of colorful boxes with pictures than to blocks of monochromatic text. If I visit a website, and I see a userpage with some text, and a bunch of boxes identifying the user as belonging to various religions and political parties, I'm going to think immediately, "oh, I get it, this is a political website, where you get to take a stand for what you believe in". The more people have that impression of Wikipedia, the harder it gets to keep important and controversial articles neutral. User pages should make the casual visitor think, "ah, I see, this is a website where people are really dedicated to neutral reporting of knowledge, and where there's a lot of focus on sourcing, and good writing, and good research, and where people identify themselves in terms of how proud they are of the research and writing they're involved in." If we can give that impression, then a partisan is much more likely to realize that they are not welcome to bring their political fights to our encyclopedia.
This is why I call it a cultural problem. We need to reinforce and strengthen our culture of academic neutrality. Too many people seem to be given to a culture of partisan debate, and we have to work against that, and try to stop reinforcing and encouraging it.
So, I hope I've managed to get that idea across with something resembling clarity. Please let me know whether I succeeded in making any sense. - GTBacchus( talk) 19:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello. In the faces list, I saw you. You said you have a mathematics degree on your user page. Your picture looks like one of my old math teachers. Anomo 05:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
A concern over the appropriateness of the image used in Abortion-stub has been raised at WikiProject Abortion. Your input, as the one who helped create both the project and its stub tag, would be appreciated. Thank you. - Severa ( !!!) 05:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
hi, I noted that you were one of the admins that blocked/banned User:SirIsaacBrock. I wanted to bring your attention to User:What123, who I suspect to be a sockpuppet of User:SirIsaacBrock. User:What123 seems to follow the same pattern of edits to articles around the Israel-Arab conflict, depopulating articles relating to abarigional conflicts for Category:Conflicts in Canada, etc... but the diff here (the use of "Cordially" at the end of his comment) is what makes me sure it's him. Are you a good person to come to for my SirIsaacBrock-blocking needs in the future? or should I take this sort of thing over to wp:ani? Thanks in advance and sorry for the trouble. Mike McGregor (Can) 04:41, August 21, 2006 (UTC)
Looks like Wikipedia:Meetup/Seattle4 will be happening September 9, 2006. - Jmabel | Talk 01:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I got a message on the article Combined Transport Inc. saying this:
An editor has expressed a concern that the subject of the article does not satisfy one of the guidelines for inclusion on Wikipedia on one of the following topics
Now what exactly does this mean? I don't site sources? Well I got this information from their business plan they handed me. How would I site that? -- Steven91 05:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
You know, you and I do not always agree but I think we handle our disagreements in a civil way and what is more important it is always evident to me that you are tying to be constructive. Thanks to your participation I thought we were making progress in revising one paragraph of the policy into one that more people liked more.
The John Awbrey added this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Son_Of_Suggestion Do you see in this the constructive spirit of engagement that I see in your comments? I don´t. On the contrary it seems only to disrupt or undermine the progress we were making, thanks to you and WAS.
Am I off base? Am I out of line? Or is Awbery? Perhaps you can comment on his suggestion. Thanks Slrubenstein | Talk 03:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Will refrain from them. Will clean up the wording in the article to conform to wikipedia standards. But I have to wonder why you deleted the material instead of fixing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nardman1 ( talk • contribs) 01:58, September 3, 2006 (UTC)
I figure everyone has finished the argument by now. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 10:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
|
Cool as a Cucumber Award
For staying cool in a heated discussion on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit (third nomination) and trying to encourage others to do so too. -- Konstable 00:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC) |
hi there,
i made a stub for menstrual extraction, and looked around for a picture for it (which i thought would be good because a visual could show the technical differences between MVA and ME better than words...)
i only found one, at this url: http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/menstruation/extraction.html
i've only been editing for a month, and have no clue about how to include this image, or if it is even possible. any help appreciated.
thanks, Cindery 17:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
i guess i will have to make my own little drawing or something :-) do you have any suggestions for where to find another image? or any criticisms/suggestions/advice re the menstrual extraction stub and how to make it better? (i'm going to convert all the references into actual footnotes today...) Cindery 18:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
17:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)~~== NOR ==
It is a policy page. I believe policy pages should have a much much lower threshold for protection than articles. Be that as it may, my protection doesn´t block administrators (and there must be thousands by now). If someone fels I acted inappropriately and undoes the protection I won´t protest, but I do think it was warrented. As for expressing my support, one reason I felt free to protect is precisely because I had stepped out of the debates some time ago - making only minor comments about process (rather than arguments for any changes). Slrubenstein | Talk 23:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I proposed a change to the primary and secondary source section. There was extensive discussion and the discussion was made into its own page. My sense is most people viewed the change as a simple clarification of existing policy, and two or perhaps three people argued against it without in my opinion any sensible arguments. I still support the clarification I proposed. Be that as it may, the only change I am aware of that was actually made to the policy was to change the paragraph on expert editors. I did not think anyone had made any change concerning primary and secondary sources yet.
Slrubenstein |
Talk
00:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are missing something. The page was recently unprotected. Someone put in the new paragraph concerning expert editors. Someon - Jon Awbery, you, I do nmt remember - suggested that at the same time that the expert editors section was modified, someone took advantage to change the primary and secondary sources section somewhat underhandedly. When I wrote, "I did not think anyone had made any change concerning primary and secondary sources yet." I meant "since the page was unprotected." You are seriously mistaken if you think I have ever suggested that I have not edited the article. I made many edits, which Jon Awbery, 0^0, and Wjhonston reverted. Felonious Monk, Jayjg, and Slim Version at various times reverted those reversions, that is, restoring my version (which they edited as well). HOWEVER (and THIS is the important thing) Wjhonston reverted those (me, Felonious Monk, Jayjg, and Slim Virgin´s) edits so that the primary and secondary sources section was returned to the state PRIOR to my revision. At that poinmt the page was protected. When the page was protected, the version of primary and secondary sources was NOT my version. When the page was unprotected, it was to make a change to the Expert Editors section. I have made no other edits. It is unfair and slanderous to accuse me of having taken advantage of the lower level of protection to sneak my version of primary and secondary sources back in. You asked me if I still cared about my revision and the answer is YES: I still think my revision provides a necessary clarification that improves the text. But that does not mean that I have changed the section to reflect my views. I HAVE NOT. Just because you can find an edit of ine from mid-August in which I made a change means nothing. There were many edits, a veritable edit war, and it ended with the page being protects. AT THAT TIME the protected version of the page was NOT my version. And sincce the page has been unprotected, that section on primary and secondary sources remains NOT my version. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I truly appreciateyour note. Despite what I wrote above, I neverfelt any animosity from youand have always appreciated the spirit in which you have contributed to Wikipedia. I think I was reacting moreto what others have suggested or might suggest. Be tthat as it may, I appreciate your apology and I am sorry I overreacted. Asfor Awbrey being a troll, you and I will just have to agree to disagre. As tojustifying my views and edits concerning NOR,I havealready explained myself fully. All I could ask anyone to do is go back and reread what I have already writen. I have no new ideas or explanations or justifications, and I personally amsatisfied that I have provided necessary and sufficient explanations for my views and edits. I just do not have anything more to add to what I have already stated. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
WIth all due respect, Awbrey is a troll. My advice is simply this: do not feed him. If no one else is engaging him, there are good reasons for that. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
First off, I would like to thank you for your message. :) While leaving Wikipedia permanently would be a knee-jerk reaction, nonetheless, I feel it necessary to force myself to back away whenever my level of frustration starts to affect my decision-making. I fear that I have bitten off more than I could chew by taking on more articles than I could reasonably handle. I may have become somewhat brusque in my dealings with other users as such.
You needn't feel negative for taking a vacation during the summer. We all have other commitments in our lives and our contributions to Wikipedia are on a volunteer basis.
In terms of places in WPAbortion which could benefit the most from your attention, the Mifepristone article has been very active of late, and more input could help resolve lingering concerns at Talk:National Abortion Federation. RoyBoy sought a peer review of the ABC hypothesis article but the response has been somewhat limited. Issue over the inclusion of the word "death" in the introductory sentence of Abortion has been raised twice on that article's Talk page recently. Substantial debate, spanning four archives, has evidently not resolved this problem. Also, there has been debate on WikiProject Abortion Talk regarding the icon, or lack thereof, of Abortion-stub; another user's opinion — especially that of one familiar with stub protocol — might lend itself to a cooperatively-reached solution.
Besides myself, Andrew c and BCSWowbagger seem to be the most active WPAbortion members, so I would also consult them for their opinions of what articles within the project are the most in need of attention. - Severa ( !!!) 05:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi GTBacchus, I'm trying to find someone who can explain why the article on Encyclopedia Dramatica was deleted. If you're willing to discuss it with me could you explain how an article on ED wouldn't be able to not violate WP:V and WP:NOR or any other policies? I've been working on some information relating to this. Thanks! -- AlexJohnc3 (talk) 03:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Meetup/Seattle4. Edits welcome. - Jmabel | Talk 08:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I just edit conflicted with you correcting that. I really should use the preview button more. JoshuaZ 00:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know. I haven't made up my mind. I'm generally sympathetic to essays in Wikipedia space but times like this make me wish we could do something like the German Essay Solution and put almost all of them into userspace. JoshuaZ 00:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariah_Carey
I don't know who else to tell, sorry. :-/
Annie XX
I went ahead and did the move, because I saw it there, and checking Amazon, it's easy to see that we're just correcting an erroneous title here, and that nobody seems to be opposing it. Feedback is welcome; it seemed to me like a good corner to cut. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I just want to check with you - is your history merge from List of Czech, Bohemian, Moravian and Slovak Jews completely sorted out? I'm just working on the WP:RM backlog, but I don't want to delete that request (in the September 2 section) if there's anything still pending about it. - GTBacchus( talk) 03:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Your good question elsewhere on Wikipedia was observed.
I'm posting this anonymously for my own protection--certain parties seem set on driving out any users who offer even a modicum of support for this alternative satirical website. I can assure you that the person posting this is *not* who you may be suspecting it is. Let's just say I'm one of the 1,000. Your reply, if left here, will be read. The ED site *might* not have been notable enough before for a WP article, but it is without a doubt now. It's all over the news. This is just the tip of the iceberg--seriously. Do not have access to Lexis Nexus type searches from earlier than the past 7-8 days, so this is likely exponentially grown. It probably is due for another DRV.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/ED:PRESS
You have a bunch of links to fix. See Talk:Pascal (unit)#Who's going to fix the links to a disambiguation page?. Gene Nygaard 02:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Had you noticed he's now making legal noises? He's not a one-trick pony, he contributes a good deal - the issue is a "controversy" on a Nobel prize which exists only to him. For every Nobel awarded, there are those who were considered, and often those who did work in the same field upon which the work of the recipient may have built. It is the latter case which Pproctor keeps inserting, against the consensus of all other editors on the page. I'm guessing its why he wants to rewrite the vanity page - I have not been following that very closely, I have my hands full at NOR and NPOV. He has been harassing me, Duncharris, FeloniousMonk, and Guettarda that I know of - he seems to have dropped his accusation that Slrubenstein is Dunc, but now accuses me of being Dunc. Bah. I have been watching you try to help him on his talk page, but I don't know that it is getting anywhere - I may be a little pessimistic, I hope so. Perhaps a mentor? I don't want to get into an Rfc, but this constant accusation of sockpuppetry must end. :( KillerChihuahua ?!? 19:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Like this? - GTBacchus( talk) 09:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a difficulty and am seeking advise. The problem I have is in getting along with a small group of editors whose edits could be characterized (in my opinion) as "willing to use poor quality secondary sources, willing to leave important things uncited". With everyone else I seem to get along fine. If you are willing to comment, I'll list out the problem in as much detail as you direct me to. Terryeo 14:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I am banned from editing the articles of Scientology. And you see that
User:ChrisO has "warned", if not he, one of another of a handful of editors probably would have. The question I ask advice about though, is very specific.
On 9 sept 2006
User:Mangoe initiated a project which he called "tendentious editors"
[8] (Initial proposal to actively discipline tendentious users)
On 11 sept I involved myself. Several editors, including myself, expressed concern about the project name.
On 23 Sept, 06:00, Fred Bauder moved the article, retitling it "disruptive editing"
[9].
On 23 Sept. 20:47, after Fred had retitled, and made edits to the article and to the talk page appropriately
User:Antaeus_Feldspar made this edit which comments on my earlier edit.
[10]. After the issue had moved on, Feldspar singled me out as if I were the only person who questioned the tendentious title and as if I had said something against
User:Mangoe.
This is a recent example of the difficulty I am having. I could spell out several more. In each instance the personal comment hints at incivility, bad faith or in some way implies that I am creating a problem. Yet the issue I am addressing is an issue which other editors at the time, also address. My question is, how am I being uncivil in that edit? The issue is resolved when Feldspar makes his comment to me. I don't think I am being uncivil. The advice I seek is, if I am being uncivil, how am I being uncivil. What have I said which prompts Feldspar to accuse me of incivility even after the issue has moved on?
Terryeo
16:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Terryeo, I've dug around a little bit, and I don't think there's much point in my commenting on the project page in question, or what's being proposed there. We're talking about one exchange between yourself and Antaeus Feldspar. It appears to me that your initial comment was not phrased in a way particularly likely to generate productive discussion. I think it would be better to ask the direct question "what motivated the creation of this page?," without tossing in a negative remark about the title of the page. That point had already been made. I'm not saying it was irrelevant, just less than diplomatic, and unlikely to provoke a good faith reply. Indeed, no reply was made for 13 days. So, I'd call that a minor diplomatic error. We've all done that. Oops; no big deal.
Next, 13 days later, Anaeus Feldspar shows up and escalates the negativity by calling your minor diplomatic error a
WP:CIVIL violation, which is unhelpful, whether or not it's true. Again, it's not a mistake that any of us is a stranger to, but it's a mistake. It's a good way to increase negativity and drama. Seeing your comment, and taking umbrage, a better approach might have been to ignore it, or finding that impossible, politely point out that the title of the page can be treated separately from the choice of name reason for its creation. Accusing others of "violations" almost never helps, it turns out.
Your reply to Antaeus in turn does little to de-escalate the situation. I can see that you felt attacked when you wrote that, and I understand every word as coming from an entirely valid feeling of being jumped on out of the blue. Presumably you two have disagreed in the past? In such a situation, I would suggest walking away, or saying something friendly or generous. That works surprisingly well, because if someone's got a chip on their shoulder, they expect you to knock it off, and then you've proven them right. If you're nice to them instead, it surprises them, and creates an expectation for them to be polite back to you, or else look like a real dick. If you assume any kind of combative (or even defensive) stance, on the other hand, then don't be surprised if you find yourself in a fight.
I would say that IF you "violated WP:CIVIL", THEN Antaeus Feldspar did as well, BUT I see no reason to pursue that train of thought. It's the kind of mistake we've all made, repeatedly. When someone accuses me of incivility, my strategy is to say something like, "I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be uncivil. Can you tell me what I said that offended you, so we can understand each other better?" I would suggest a similar approach, especially if you've picked up a... "fan club", shall we say? If you feel you're being attacked without justification, I suggest trying to be disarming rather than defensive. You asked for advice, and that's what I think. I've also given Antaeus Feldspar a link to this discussion. - GTBacchus( talk) 20:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I am new to amokolia. here are some new links
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Amightyfortressisour god ( talk • contribs) 00:54, September 27, 2006 (UTC)
Howdy! I've created Wikipedia:Administrator Review as a process proposal, and I would like your thoughts on the subject. - CHAIRBOY ( ☎) 05:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
You've been hit in the face with a WP:SNOWball! >Radiant< 22:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. I have been requested to remove merge request and since I am new I will.I do however think that Mormonism has an undue amount of pages. I have yet to see any other religion have an eighth of as many pages. I will leave all requests now only on edit pages. If you look up Catholic you will find few pages however Mormon or LDS (same thing) get all the pages listed below (maybe more hiding). I feel Mormons want very much to be seen.
Category:Latter Day Saint films Category:Latter Day Saint music
Category:Latter Day Saint denominations Category:Latter Day Saint doctrines, beliefs, and practices
Category:Latter Day Saint doctrines regarding deity Category:Latter Day Saint hierarchy crossreferences to Latter Day Saint leaders Category:Latter Day Saint ordinances, rituals, and symbolism Category:Mormonism and controversy
Category:History of the Latter Day Saint movement
Category:Notable people in Latter Day Saint history crossreferences to Significant places in Mormonism
Category:Latter Day Saint leaders
Category:Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Category:Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Category:Latter Day Saint texts
Category:Book of Mormon Category:Latter Day Saint periodicals
Category:Notable Latter Day Saints
crossreferences to Notable people in Latter Day Saint history
Category:Organizations related to Mormonism
crossreferences to Latter Day Saint denominations and Latter Day Saint hierarchy
Category:Significant places in Mormonism
Category:Latter Day Saint temples
This seems like alot to me. Most could be moved to Mormonism. However If you do not agree I will respect your desicion. PEACE —Preceding unsigned comment added by Impending ( talk • contribs) 03:12, September 28, 2006 (UTC)
Basically, my block extension was based on a further review of his recent activities. As now exemplified by the bold-face message across the top of his talk page (which I plan to remove shortly), he never has been civil, and every indication, including his unblock request, shows that he has no plans to. However, I've now been pointed to his block log, which shows that, after a flurry of blocking and unblocking, he's been blocked for 6 months by Danny for harrassing the office, so I imagine he's mooted the point. -- InShaneee 16:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing the title of the article. It rolls a bit awkwardly off the tongue, and I expect many will search for the "of" title rather than the "for" title, but now it seems to match the official one. It would really depend on their legal documents. Other orders mostly use "of" in similar titles, such as Little Sisters of the Poor, so the confusion is natural, but Wikipedia is now in agreement with the order's website. Edison 05:55, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
No problem. What you did was fine. If someone wants to move it back, they can request again. Thanks for the letting me know. - Ganeshk ( talk) 09:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
(The following has been copied from above in the belief that you missed it because I neglected to start a new section for it. — Mi r a 09:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC))
And here's batch eight: 1 2 3 4 — Mi r a 06:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi GTBacchus, In case you ever find yourself with a userbox that needs migrating to userspace, feel free to add it to the archive at User:Rfrisbie/Userbox. If you do so, please also link it to one of the directories at User:Rfrisbie/Userboxes. If you know of someone else who might be looking for a place to migrate a userbox, feel free to pass this offer along to them as well. Regards, Rfrisbie talk 17:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I seem to have come along on the tale end of an external link war at Hookah. Problem is, following WP:EL neither of the two links that were being fought over should be allowed to stay-- they're forums. Could you please weigh in at Talk:Hookah? Many thanks, -- Mwanner | Talk 23:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I apologise as well to start this all back up again, Bacchus. But it seems to me that the rules do not state to always avoid forums. So what qualifies a forum as un-linkable? The point is to provide a reliable source of information? If we succumb to every little over exaggeration of the rules, we avoid this point. As it stands the people viewing the page in the first place wanted a forum, the second one was to keep that avenue un-biased, and being that matter was already settled previously I fail to grasp the point of what Mwanner is doing. What does it mean if someone goes re-writing rules to be exacts and certainties in every respect just on a whim? In the spirit of freedom and un-censored informational outlets, I urge you to reconsider. The matter may seem small, but the message is anything but. I just think if the guidelines say we should, but not that we should never, what is the exemption? I think our situation was the perfect example of an exemption, as they were posted to keep the avenues of information open and unbiased. Perhaps a debate in discussion should be posed, and the viewers should be allowed to decide? I apologise again for bothering you, Bacchus, and hope I haven't been too out of line. Kuriohara 07:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I have talked to User:Esaborio for a few days, and it seems his objection to the inclusion is based on the idea that Iraq "didnt really have ties to terror." I have told him this is irrelevant. He has admitted that the War on Terrorism is against those the USA sees as terrorists, and that the USA saw Iraq as a state sponsor of terror. But he continues to revert war. I think this is pretty much what Nescio is at, though he has been trying to get me and Zer0 in trouble for reverting his edits to Wikipedia:WOT and hasnt really talked about the issue itself since the month began. Where does this put us? I really dont see any legitimate objections, it seems to just be the knee jerk no Bush cant be right reaction that they cant get passed, when in reality it has nothing to do with Bush being right... he could have been lying about everything and its still a part of the campaign. Or in the case of Nescio, its simply a refusal to work with me or Zer0, and even you as he has dodged your question for the past week. But do we still have to humor this sort of stuff, and not implement a consensus? Rangeley 18:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
A Userbox redirect request... What do you think? Rfrisbie talk 20:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
On July 8, 2006, Jimbo proposed for deletion Wikipedia:Userboxes/Beliefs with a prod reason of "per the emerging consensus that the German solution is best". See [1]. I've posted this to WP:JOU, WT:GUS, the userbox location straw poll, and to Rfrisbie. GRBerry 02:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Rfrisbie
talk
03:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi GTBacchus,
While I was in the middle of bypassing a redirect from Template:User soul to {{ User:UBX/Soul}}, the redirect page was deleted. I'm sure this is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. Would you be willing to investigate this for me? Rfrisbie talk 05:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
For being level-headed. I have a problem in dealing with people who are willing to act unilaterally like this, especially when they have no real desire to communicate. As you being the most level-headed, my question is this though: If they can't properly explain why we get to ignore policy in this, and other cases (like other Usenet articles), what do we do with the article? Whether or not the topic is notable, I can't justify its keep unsourced, and it doesn't appear if they're about to let me ensure that only properly sourced material remains.-- Crossmr 21:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Pls unblock my account, I am ready to use it again. Thanks SIB
Something that you said (and repeated a few times) made me wonder, so I checked. From what you said, I half expected to find complaints about me all over WP:ANI. Actually I found very few, in view of the number of disputes I deal with. The most recent seemed to be SPUI deciding that using WP:ANI as a megaphone would be preferable to actually approaching me personally. I agreed at once that calling him a troll had been out of order. Before that was, a few weeks ago now, Fahrenheit451 not liking being warned about his personal attacks on Terryeo. And the Alienus thing of course, which you know. And apart from the people who get fidgety if someone edits their signatures that's about it. I'm doing a lot of stuff on AfD and DRV at the moment, but that's not making a noise outside DRV, and things there seem to be moving very much in the right direction. . The usual moans about unorthodox closes, but 'nothing we haven't seen before. I think the signature people have given up complaining, which is nice.
So by and large I think you were exaggerating quite a bit. -- Tony Sidaway 07:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
3 contribs and the writer creates this in a single edit. Might be worth checking to ensure its not recreation of deleted content.-- Crossmr 15:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I moved this from above again, don't worry about leaving me waiting or anything, I've been happily editing away elsewhere. — Mi ra 10:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Here's batch number eleven: 1 2 3 4 5 — Mi ra 13:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Since you're interested in this topic, I thought you might like to give input on this new page I created born of a discussion on WP:RS. Wikipedia:Guidelines for Blog Citation, our aim is to create good objective guidelines that can be used to test whether or not a blog can be used as reference and what the scope of that reference can be.-- Crossmr 21:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Apparently mediation does not improve the current conflict I have with this user. Since I am at my wits end I have filed a case at ArbCom. This is to notify you should you wish to comment there. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 11:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
No, updating it, we have changed our name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joebb11 ( talk • contribs) 11:40, July 20, 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we will be updating our web site soon.
See http://ddh.atomizeus.co.uk/ for our new web site.
I just wanted to stop in and say thanks for your involvement in the ED article. Even if I disagree with your judgement, your method of discussion is far more helpful then what has been going on there in the past couple of days. I'm sure your intervention will help bring about a civil, well-thought out decision as to the direction of the article. See you in the ED talk page, Karwynn (talk) 14:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please read this, and consider changing your mind about whether or not I was "fishing" for an IP confirmation. Karwynn (talk) 20:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've seen numerous articles where someone tries to push PoV disputed content over and over and is subsequently blocked for vandalism, and i've seen such behaviour referred to as vandalism multiple times. Perhaps thats just a poor choice of words on the part of the blocking admin.-- Crossmr 06:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
After that day in Cleethorpes? How could I ever forget? LOL!
How's the god of wine?
XXX-- Galaxybabe 22:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the word "none" traditionally takes the number of the word in which modifies it, and is not strictly singular or plural in number. I should have explained that in the edit summary rather than just doing a quick VP revert, so I apologize for that. -- H·G ( words/ works) 06:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I was just looking through all of the userboxes I've moved, and I think we've taken care of all the ones I did improperly. Thank you so much for all of your help. — Mi ra 04:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi again, it is telling me you've left me a new message but I can't find out where it is :-/ I am adding BBC news links to the "Recent Deaths" section, just to see if I can ;-) I have no idea how to sign off my name, - I saw the thing in brackets but I don't know what a & and the numbers mean??? I will try ~~Galaxybabe~~ but I am not sure that will work. Have a great day! Hugs, Annie/GB
Edit: Well - that didn't work so let's try: Galaxybabe 08:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
Woo-Hoo! Galaxybabe 08:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
Your clock is wrong by the way, it's not 08:58 in England, it's 09.59 (10:00am now) Galaxybabe 08:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
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I'm a bit surprised by your comments on this discussion. The page was an obvious speedy and no discussion was merited (indeed, discussion could only draw more attention to the attack). -- Tony Sidaway 12:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I see you've recently edited Wikipedia talk:No original research. User talk:01001 seems to be grinding an axe about OR (with regards to Talk:Fox News Channel controversies), on Wikipedia talk:No original research and elsewhere. This user recently had a bunch of OR edits to Human height reverted [2], whereupon he (nine minutes later) deleted a paragraph [3] explaining on the talk page that "it is OR" [4] because he felt that a study cited in the paragraph (published in American Journal of Epidemiology) did not accurately support the statement being made (generalizing childhood disease effects to the general population). It seems that this editor has a thing about OR and V, and I suspect his deletions are a WP:POINT. In any case I restored the four sentence paragraph, with a bit of rewrite, and added two more published papers (each sentence in the section now supported by a seperate reference), and he reverted again, deleting the entire section [5] with the complaint that the one reference was off the point. His complaint is off the point, and he clearly hasn't read the text he reverted. Pete.Hurd 06:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi again :-) Yes I figured out the signature :-P although I can't see me being seduced by this place, I still have a lot of articles to write for h2g2. I'm doing well, I'm now a sub-ed and Scout, and I have 66 solo edited entries with 7 *pending*. We have badges for our Personal Space now, to display "25 edited entries" and 50 and 75 and 100. When we reach a hundred, we get to design the Front Page for a day! <grin> Galaxybabe 11:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)Galaxybabe
Was reading your comments on this topic and you asked how you would go about removing something if you felt that it was directly harming wikipedia. The answer is incredibly simple yet purplsely avoided in my honest opinion. You simply return to Jimbo and seek further clarification and explaination of T1 and T2 to the point where absolutely nobody could misread the policy. Curious how admins are happier to take it as it currently is, such that it is ambiguous enough to use when it suits them but when given a clear path to make it absolute they refuse to do it... my educated guess is that they would be afraid they couldn't continue deleting things from their own POV if they had it clarified. Care to prove me wrong? Enigmatical 22:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for getting back to me. In order to convince someone of something, there has to at least be room for convincing. There is no use in trying to convince someone who is adamant before anything has been said. A person wishing to stick to a particular point of view will never change that point of view because being subjective, we humans can find whatever we like to support our own goals and agendas. Just as you wont convince me they don't believe, I wont convince you that they do... to then argue people need to be convinced is done specifically becuase you already know the answer to that. Funny how you construct the answer to specifically meet your own POV... is that what a good administrator should do?
You have your own photo on wikipedia and it is in the photobook. Don't you consider it a complete and total contradiction to do something as "frivilous" as that and then bemoan how useless userboxes are? I see people playing hangman, doing personal topics and many other things here... so why do userboxes get the flack? I believe that until you are consistent in your POV, and that you automatically share your view with all things on Wikipedia that are frivilous then you truely don't have a right to be "divisive" against one particular aspect of wikipedia.
Prove to me first that you are open-minded and willing to accept all possibilities, and I will gladly share with you what my point of view is in the hope of finding a proper solution. (in return I will also be open minded in listening to why it should be removed, and why it should be done in contrast to other useless content). Deal? Enigmatical 03:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
(Outdenting) I'll go ahead and reply here, to help keep the discussion together. First, there's your statement: I do feel uncomfortable that the against option can only think in binary and that userboxes can only go, and that there is no compromise. Calling an exterminator to get rid of pests in one's house is also an example of binary thinking. So is cutting off a rotting limb. They're still both good ideas. I realize that I haven't yet explained how userboxes are like a pest or a rotting limb.
Next you suggest that my "maybe" could be less than completely honest. It's not a very strong "maybe". It can be expanded to "maybe there's a way to do that, but I sure as hell haven't seen it, and I can't seem to think of it, but there's always stuff I haven't seen or thought of in this world." It's kind of like if you had a malignant tumor in your body. You'd want to have it cut out, I imagine, and if someone really pressed you on the point - are your sure it has to go, are you sure there isn't a way you could keep it around, despite the harm you feel it's doing? You might say "maybe", but I think it would be a pretty guarded maybe, contingent on new information that you're not really expecting to appear. I think if there were a way to separate userboxes from the problems I have with them, someone might have thought of it sometime in the last 8 months, but I'm willing to keep listening. Meanwhile, I think it would be folly to put off excising the tumor on the grounds that some reason for keeping it in might come up tomorrow. Remember that as far as I can see right now, userboxes are actively harming Wikipedia, while we're talking. I'm open to being shown otherwise, but until then, wouldn't I be silly to pretend that I'm less convinced than I am?
Next, you ask how I can have an opinion about what it means to be a Wikipedian when the discussion hasn't yet happened. The thing is, that discussion has happened, for a lot of people, and its results are all over the Wikipedia namespace. Where the discussion hasn't happened is in the context of userbox deletion discussions, because people haven't really recognized that those discussions are actually about what Wikipedia means. People think the discussions are about all kinds of other red herrings, like vote-stacking, or freedom of speech, to use one example from each side. So, I've done a lot of thinking, and I've arrived at a conclusion. It's not a train of thought that's very easy to reduce to a simple soundbyte, but I am able to articulate it, and have done so, more or less sucessfully on a couple of occasions. When I did, others agreed with me that I was articulating the same vision Jimbo has been promoting, and various supportive comments led me to believe that I'm not alone in the way I'm thinking. I find it very clear and compelling. In response to your question: if someone shows me that I've been wrong about what it means to be a Wikipedian, or about how that applies to userboxes, and that userboxes are actually consistent with the best vision of what Wikipedia is, then of course I'll switch my support to that side. I'd be crazy not to.
Moving along, you assert that Wikipedia is a community. I wouldn't put it that way. I'd emphasize that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and it's only a community insofar as that serves the ultimate aim, which is writing the encyclopedia. Any aspect of the community that starts to work against our fundamental project is unnecessary, unwanted, and needs to go. Once we start treating the community as an end in itself, we risk losing sight of our goal. The Wikipedia community is not what all those people have been donating money to support, and I refuse to betray them. Our job here is to write a free, comprehensive, neutral encyclopedia.
There are things happening at Wikipedia that make no obvious contribution to the project. You mention the facebook - it's contribution is very minor and we could easily live without it, but I can't see that it does any harm. BJAODN is also unencyclopedic, but it does no harm, and it's fun. Hangman is another fun diversion, but in the interest of not turning into a games Wiki, I think we should really draw the line at fun things that have something to do with the encyclopedia. In my estimation, BJAODN is good to keep by that criterion; hangman, not so much. Some userboxes are related to writing the encyclopedia, and many others could be argued as relevant, but at that point they also stop being harmless. Once they're damaging to the project, there's no excuse for keeping them. I suspect our disagreement is over whether they're damaging.
You state: It has already acknowledged that user pages can have content which is seperate from the serious side of wikipedia and userboxes simply continue that trend. To then say they give the wrong impression of wikipedia, yet allow user pages with colourful content, personal pictures, hangman, otehr games and everything else seems to me to be isolating one specific thing (ie thus having an agenda). I must point out that you're not understanding where I'm coming from. First though, have a look at WP:USER: Generally, you should avoid substantial content on your user page that is unrelated to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a general hosting service, so your user page is not a personal homepage. Your page is about you as a Wikipedian.
Now, onto the real central point. WP:USER says: Your page is about you as a Wikipedian. Now let's talk about what it means to give the wrong impression of Wikipedia. It has nothing to do with colorful content, or personal pictures, or hangman. It has to do with a misunderstanding of our neutrality policy. Political userboxes help undermine our basic philosophy of NPOV. I'm going to explain that in more detail, but I hope it's clear that the reason I'm "isolating one specific thing" is because it's that one specific thing that's doing the specific kind of damage I'm worried about, and about which we still haven't talked. My "agenda" is to protect Wikipedia against a very specific form of cancer, to which hangman doesn't contribute one bit.
Your next point is to question whether my actions back up my words. That's easy. First of all, for most of the summer, I haven't had an internet connection - look at my July and August contributions, compared to the preceding months. Before that, do you know who started, and made a huge chunk of contributions to Wikipedia:T1 and T2 debates? That's right, I did, and not just editing arguments on my own side either. I put days and days of my life towards trying to get people to talk to each other, and to actually look at the points being made by others with an eye towards understanding, and not just arguing against. Did you notice the multiple times I called out Tony Sidaway for failing to properly respect the other side of the debate? I typed thousands of words trying to drum up consensus for what I thought, and still believe, is right. I found it pretty difficult to get anyone else to contribute energy towards actually exploring the central issue; everyone was having too much fun running up blind alleys, and I was still working on how to untangle all the arguments. Now, it's September, and most people have walked away from the whole userbox affair, and I'm still bothering to type thousands of words to support the view that I still believe is correct. I'm still fleshing out what the best arguments are for what I believe, and I intend to promote them far and wide when I've figured out what they are, and if those best arguments turn out to be arguments in favor of userboxes, then I'll be there, promoting userboxes - although I'm not expecting that, because I still find the arguments against userboxes pretty damn compelling.
For what I hope is the last time, can we please stop trying to make this discussion one about my honesty or sincerity? Have you noticed that I haven't once mentioned or alluded to your motives? Can we please focus on the topic of whether or not userboxes hurt Wikipedia, please? At least can you wait until after you've found out what my position is to question my motives for holding it? Because you're making it abundantly clear that you still don't know what my argument is. I'm not surprised you have misconceptions about my beliefs; please find out what I believe before making ad hominem arguments, ok?
So, we're nearly to the point, which is the specific way in which userboxes are harmful. First though, I'll just register a couple of replies to your last paragraph. You say "I fail to understand how this is a cultural problem". That's because you still don't know what I'm claiming the problem is. We'll be there in a paragraph or two. Secondly, I have nothing to say in support of uncommunicative admins refusing to discuss their out-of-process deletions. I think that's fucked up: not deleting out-of-process, which has its place, but refusing to discuss, which in my opinion is very much wrong, and I've expressed that to several of the admins in question on more than one occasion. I agree that administrative dickishness is a problem, and that it gives the wrong impression of Wikipedia, and encourages others to be dicks as well, and I find this to be one of the major problems facing Wikipedia. Userboxes are the most visible aspect of another one of the major problems facing Wikipedia.
OK! Now check it out. WP:USER says that your user page is about who you are as a Wikipedian. This is consistent with how your userpage will be viewed by observers, because it's the homepage of your Wikipedia account, not your MySpace account. Now, on a page that's about you as a Wikipedian, if you declare "This user is a Republican", you're saying that you, as a Wikipedian, are a Republican. In other words, you're saying that when you edit Wikipedia, you consider your being a Republican part of your approach. Whether or not this is what you mean, this is how it comes across. It encourages others to bring their biases to Wikipedia and set up shop as an Atheist or a Trans-humanist, or a supporter of Palestinian independence, or whatever.
Now this next point is important: there are two ideas about what neutrality might mean. It might mean that a bunch of biased people come together and edit as representatives of their bias, and since all biases are represented in relative proportions, we end up with some kind of average, which must be neutral. On the other hand, it might mean that we try our best to pursue neutrality on an individual basis. We grant that it's not possible for someone to be entirely neutral - in fact, we repeat that like a mantra - and we each individually strive to rise above our biases with each edit, acknowledging that we're bound to fail again and again and again.
I hope it's clear that I'm saying the second model is the preferable one. Now, it's entirely possible for someone to agree with me about that model, and yet think they're doing a service to NPOV by advertising their likely biases with userboxes. This is the disclosure of bias argument, and it makes a certain amount of sense. What it fails to take into account is the appearance projected to outsiders, because of the powerful nature of a colored box with the words "this user is a...." as a viral meme. First of all, they look like little badges, and they appeal to our instict to make collections of colorful little objects. This is not harmful in itself, except that it means that, if there are a few userboxes around today, there will be more tomorrow: they tend to increase unless they're given clearly prescribed limits.
Secondly, and this is the rub, they indicate that your identity as a Wikipedian is in terms of your biases. They're effectively a welcome sign targeted directly at people who would like to edit Wikipedia from a particular biased perspective. They say to those people "yeah, what you want to do is really how Wikipedia works, and we welcome you to bring your agenda here and operate from it." In fact, we don't welcome that. We don't want people to make contributions that fly directly in the face of our NPOV policy. The more people rely on Wikipedia as a source of information, which is more and more each day, the more people with strong agendas would love to bend our articles away from neutrality and towards their world-view. We have to vigilantly keep Wikipedia de-politicized. It's very hard to do, and it really doesn't make it easier when we make it look as appealing as possible to partisans, by projecting the message that being a partisan Wikipedian is the main idea.
People's eyes are drawn more towards a patch of colorful boxes with pictures than to blocks of monochromatic text. If I visit a website, and I see a userpage with some text, and a bunch of boxes identifying the user as belonging to various religions and political parties, I'm going to think immediately, "oh, I get it, this is a political website, where you get to take a stand for what you believe in". The more people have that impression of Wikipedia, the harder it gets to keep important and controversial articles neutral. User pages should make the casual visitor think, "ah, I see, this is a website where people are really dedicated to neutral reporting of knowledge, and where there's a lot of focus on sourcing, and good writing, and good research, and where people identify themselves in terms of how proud they are of the research and writing they're involved in." If we can give that impression, then a partisan is much more likely to realize that they are not welcome to bring their political fights to our encyclopedia.
This is why I call it a cultural problem. We need to reinforce and strengthen our culture of academic neutrality. Too many people seem to be given to a culture of partisan debate, and we have to work against that, and try to stop reinforcing and encouraging it.
So, I hope I've managed to get that idea across with something resembling clarity. Please let me know whether I succeeded in making any sense. - GTBacchus( talk) 19:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello. In the faces list, I saw you. You said you have a mathematics degree on your user page. Your picture looks like one of my old math teachers. Anomo 05:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
A concern over the appropriateness of the image used in Abortion-stub has been raised at WikiProject Abortion. Your input, as the one who helped create both the project and its stub tag, would be appreciated. Thank you. - Severa ( !!!) 05:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
hi, I noted that you were one of the admins that blocked/banned User:SirIsaacBrock. I wanted to bring your attention to User:What123, who I suspect to be a sockpuppet of User:SirIsaacBrock. User:What123 seems to follow the same pattern of edits to articles around the Israel-Arab conflict, depopulating articles relating to abarigional conflicts for Category:Conflicts in Canada, etc... but the diff here (the use of "Cordially" at the end of his comment) is what makes me sure it's him. Are you a good person to come to for my SirIsaacBrock-blocking needs in the future? or should I take this sort of thing over to wp:ani? Thanks in advance and sorry for the trouble. Mike McGregor (Can) 04:41, August 21, 2006 (UTC)
Looks like Wikipedia:Meetup/Seattle4 will be happening September 9, 2006. - Jmabel | Talk 01:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I got a message on the article Combined Transport Inc. saying this:
An editor has expressed a concern that the subject of the article does not satisfy one of the guidelines for inclusion on Wikipedia on one of the following topics
Now what exactly does this mean? I don't site sources? Well I got this information from their business plan they handed me. How would I site that? -- Steven91 05:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
You know, you and I do not always agree but I think we handle our disagreements in a civil way and what is more important it is always evident to me that you are tying to be constructive. Thanks to your participation I thought we were making progress in revising one paragraph of the policy into one that more people liked more.
The John Awbrey added this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Son_Of_Suggestion Do you see in this the constructive spirit of engagement that I see in your comments? I don´t. On the contrary it seems only to disrupt or undermine the progress we were making, thanks to you and WAS.
Am I off base? Am I out of line? Or is Awbery? Perhaps you can comment on his suggestion. Thanks Slrubenstein | Talk 03:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Will refrain from them. Will clean up the wording in the article to conform to wikipedia standards. But I have to wonder why you deleted the material instead of fixing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nardman1 ( talk • contribs) 01:58, September 3, 2006 (UTC)
I figure everyone has finished the argument by now. Matthew Brown (Morven) ( T: C) 10:30, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
|
Cool as a Cucumber Award
For staying cool in a heated discussion on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit (third nomination) and trying to encourage others to do so too. -- Konstable 00:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC) |
hi there,
i made a stub for menstrual extraction, and looked around for a picture for it (which i thought would be good because a visual could show the technical differences between MVA and ME better than words...)
i only found one, at this url: http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/menstruation/extraction.html
i've only been editing for a month, and have no clue about how to include this image, or if it is even possible. any help appreciated.
thanks, Cindery 17:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
i guess i will have to make my own little drawing or something :-) do you have any suggestions for where to find another image? or any criticisms/suggestions/advice re the menstrual extraction stub and how to make it better? (i'm going to convert all the references into actual footnotes today...) Cindery 18:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
17:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)~~== NOR ==
It is a policy page. I believe policy pages should have a much much lower threshold for protection than articles. Be that as it may, my protection doesn´t block administrators (and there must be thousands by now). If someone fels I acted inappropriately and undoes the protection I won´t protest, but I do think it was warrented. As for expressing my support, one reason I felt free to protect is precisely because I had stepped out of the debates some time ago - making only minor comments about process (rather than arguments for any changes). Slrubenstein | Talk 23:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I proposed a change to the primary and secondary source section. There was extensive discussion and the discussion was made into its own page. My sense is most people viewed the change as a simple clarification of existing policy, and two or perhaps three people argued against it without in my opinion any sensible arguments. I still support the clarification I proposed. Be that as it may, the only change I am aware of that was actually made to the policy was to change the paragraph on expert editors. I did not think anyone had made any change concerning primary and secondary sources yet.
Slrubenstein |
Talk
00:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are missing something. The page was recently unprotected. Someone put in the new paragraph concerning expert editors. Someon - Jon Awbery, you, I do nmt remember - suggested that at the same time that the expert editors section was modified, someone took advantage to change the primary and secondary sources section somewhat underhandedly. When I wrote, "I did not think anyone had made any change concerning primary and secondary sources yet." I meant "since the page was unprotected." You are seriously mistaken if you think I have ever suggested that I have not edited the article. I made many edits, which Jon Awbery, 0^0, and Wjhonston reverted. Felonious Monk, Jayjg, and Slim Version at various times reverted those reversions, that is, restoring my version (which they edited as well). HOWEVER (and THIS is the important thing) Wjhonston reverted those (me, Felonious Monk, Jayjg, and Slim Virgin´s) edits so that the primary and secondary sources section was returned to the state PRIOR to my revision. At that poinmt the page was protected. When the page was protected, the version of primary and secondary sources was NOT my version. When the page was unprotected, it was to make a change to the Expert Editors section. I have made no other edits. It is unfair and slanderous to accuse me of having taken advantage of the lower level of protection to sneak my version of primary and secondary sources back in. You asked me if I still cared about my revision and the answer is YES: I still think my revision provides a necessary clarification that improves the text. But that does not mean that I have changed the section to reflect my views. I HAVE NOT. Just because you can find an edit of ine from mid-August in which I made a change means nothing. There were many edits, a veritable edit war, and it ended with the page being protects. AT THAT TIME the protected version of the page was NOT my version. And sincce the page has been unprotected, that section on primary and secondary sources remains NOT my version. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I truly appreciateyour note. Despite what I wrote above, I neverfelt any animosity from youand have always appreciated the spirit in which you have contributed to Wikipedia. I think I was reacting moreto what others have suggested or might suggest. Be tthat as it may, I appreciate your apology and I am sorry I overreacted. Asfor Awbrey being a troll, you and I will just have to agree to disagre. As tojustifying my views and edits concerning NOR,I havealready explained myself fully. All I could ask anyone to do is go back and reread what I have already writen. I have no new ideas or explanations or justifications, and I personally amsatisfied that I have provided necessary and sufficient explanations for my views and edits. I just do not have anything more to add to what I have already stated. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
WIth all due respect, Awbrey is a troll. My advice is simply this: do not feed him. If no one else is engaging him, there are good reasons for that. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
First off, I would like to thank you for your message. :) While leaving Wikipedia permanently would be a knee-jerk reaction, nonetheless, I feel it necessary to force myself to back away whenever my level of frustration starts to affect my decision-making. I fear that I have bitten off more than I could chew by taking on more articles than I could reasonably handle. I may have become somewhat brusque in my dealings with other users as such.
You needn't feel negative for taking a vacation during the summer. We all have other commitments in our lives and our contributions to Wikipedia are on a volunteer basis.
In terms of places in WPAbortion which could benefit the most from your attention, the Mifepristone article has been very active of late, and more input could help resolve lingering concerns at Talk:National Abortion Federation. RoyBoy sought a peer review of the ABC hypothesis article but the response has been somewhat limited. Issue over the inclusion of the word "death" in the introductory sentence of Abortion has been raised twice on that article's Talk page recently. Substantial debate, spanning four archives, has evidently not resolved this problem. Also, there has been debate on WikiProject Abortion Talk regarding the icon, or lack thereof, of Abortion-stub; another user's opinion — especially that of one familiar with stub protocol — might lend itself to a cooperatively-reached solution.
Besides myself, Andrew c and BCSWowbagger seem to be the most active WPAbortion members, so I would also consult them for their opinions of what articles within the project are the most in need of attention. - Severa ( !!!) 05:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi GTBacchus, I'm trying to find someone who can explain why the article on Encyclopedia Dramatica was deleted. If you're willing to discuss it with me could you explain how an article on ED wouldn't be able to not violate WP:V and WP:NOR or any other policies? I've been working on some information relating to this. Thanks! -- AlexJohnc3 (talk) 03:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Meetup/Seattle4. Edits welcome. - Jmabel | Talk 08:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I just edit conflicted with you correcting that. I really should use the preview button more. JoshuaZ 00:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't know. I haven't made up my mind. I'm generally sympathetic to essays in Wikipedia space but times like this make me wish we could do something like the German Essay Solution and put almost all of them into userspace. JoshuaZ 00:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariah_Carey
I don't know who else to tell, sorry. :-/
Annie XX
I went ahead and did the move, because I saw it there, and checking Amazon, it's easy to see that we're just correcting an erroneous title here, and that nobody seems to be opposing it. Feedback is welcome; it seemed to me like a good corner to cut. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I just want to check with you - is your history merge from List of Czech, Bohemian, Moravian and Slovak Jews completely sorted out? I'm just working on the WP:RM backlog, but I don't want to delete that request (in the September 2 section) if there's anything still pending about it. - GTBacchus( talk) 03:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Your good question elsewhere on Wikipedia was observed.
I'm posting this anonymously for my own protection--certain parties seem set on driving out any users who offer even a modicum of support for this alternative satirical website. I can assure you that the person posting this is *not* who you may be suspecting it is. Let's just say I'm one of the 1,000. Your reply, if left here, will be read. The ED site *might* not have been notable enough before for a WP article, but it is without a doubt now. It's all over the news. This is just the tip of the iceberg--seriously. Do not have access to Lexis Nexus type searches from earlier than the past 7-8 days, so this is likely exponentially grown. It probably is due for another DRV.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/ED:PRESS
You have a bunch of links to fix. See Talk:Pascal (unit)#Who's going to fix the links to a disambiguation page?. Gene Nygaard 02:30, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Had you noticed he's now making legal noises? He's not a one-trick pony, he contributes a good deal - the issue is a "controversy" on a Nobel prize which exists only to him. For every Nobel awarded, there are those who were considered, and often those who did work in the same field upon which the work of the recipient may have built. It is the latter case which Pproctor keeps inserting, against the consensus of all other editors on the page. I'm guessing its why he wants to rewrite the vanity page - I have not been following that very closely, I have my hands full at NOR and NPOV. He has been harassing me, Duncharris, FeloniousMonk, and Guettarda that I know of - he seems to have dropped his accusation that Slrubenstein is Dunc, but now accuses me of being Dunc. Bah. I have been watching you try to help him on his talk page, but I don't know that it is getting anywhere - I may be a little pessimistic, I hope so. Perhaps a mentor? I don't want to get into an Rfc, but this constant accusation of sockpuppetry must end. :( KillerChihuahua ?!? 19:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Like this? - GTBacchus( talk) 09:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I have a difficulty and am seeking advise. The problem I have is in getting along with a small group of editors whose edits could be characterized (in my opinion) as "willing to use poor quality secondary sources, willing to leave important things uncited". With everyone else I seem to get along fine. If you are willing to comment, I'll list out the problem in as much detail as you direct me to. Terryeo 14:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I am banned from editing the articles of Scientology. And you see that
User:ChrisO has "warned", if not he, one of another of a handful of editors probably would have. The question I ask advice about though, is very specific.
On 9 sept 2006
User:Mangoe initiated a project which he called "tendentious editors"
[8] (Initial proposal to actively discipline tendentious users)
On 11 sept I involved myself. Several editors, including myself, expressed concern about the project name.
On 23 Sept, 06:00, Fred Bauder moved the article, retitling it "disruptive editing"
[9].
On 23 Sept. 20:47, after Fred had retitled, and made edits to the article and to the talk page appropriately
User:Antaeus_Feldspar made this edit which comments on my earlier edit.
[10]. After the issue had moved on, Feldspar singled me out as if I were the only person who questioned the tendentious title and as if I had said something against
User:Mangoe.
This is a recent example of the difficulty I am having. I could spell out several more. In each instance the personal comment hints at incivility, bad faith or in some way implies that I am creating a problem. Yet the issue I am addressing is an issue which other editors at the time, also address. My question is, how am I being uncivil in that edit? The issue is resolved when Feldspar makes his comment to me. I don't think I am being uncivil. The advice I seek is, if I am being uncivil, how am I being uncivil. What have I said which prompts Feldspar to accuse me of incivility even after the issue has moved on?
Terryeo
16:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Terryeo, I've dug around a little bit, and I don't think there's much point in my commenting on the project page in question, or what's being proposed there. We're talking about one exchange between yourself and Antaeus Feldspar. It appears to me that your initial comment was not phrased in a way particularly likely to generate productive discussion. I think it would be better to ask the direct question "what motivated the creation of this page?," without tossing in a negative remark about the title of the page. That point had already been made. I'm not saying it was irrelevant, just less than diplomatic, and unlikely to provoke a good faith reply. Indeed, no reply was made for 13 days. So, I'd call that a minor diplomatic error. We've all done that. Oops; no big deal.
Next, 13 days later, Anaeus Feldspar shows up and escalates the negativity by calling your minor diplomatic error a
WP:CIVIL violation, which is unhelpful, whether or not it's true. Again, it's not a mistake that any of us is a stranger to, but it's a mistake. It's a good way to increase negativity and drama. Seeing your comment, and taking umbrage, a better approach might have been to ignore it, or finding that impossible, politely point out that the title of the page can be treated separately from the choice of name reason for its creation. Accusing others of "violations" almost never helps, it turns out.
Your reply to Antaeus in turn does little to de-escalate the situation. I can see that you felt attacked when you wrote that, and I understand every word as coming from an entirely valid feeling of being jumped on out of the blue. Presumably you two have disagreed in the past? In such a situation, I would suggest walking away, or saying something friendly or generous. That works surprisingly well, because if someone's got a chip on their shoulder, they expect you to knock it off, and then you've proven them right. If you're nice to them instead, it surprises them, and creates an expectation for them to be polite back to you, or else look like a real dick. If you assume any kind of combative (or even defensive) stance, on the other hand, then don't be surprised if you find yourself in a fight.
I would say that IF you "violated WP:CIVIL", THEN Antaeus Feldspar did as well, BUT I see no reason to pursue that train of thought. It's the kind of mistake we've all made, repeatedly. When someone accuses me of incivility, my strategy is to say something like, "I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be uncivil. Can you tell me what I said that offended you, so we can understand each other better?" I would suggest a similar approach, especially if you've picked up a... "fan club", shall we say? If you feel you're being attacked without justification, I suggest trying to be disarming rather than defensive. You asked for advice, and that's what I think. I've also given Antaeus Feldspar a link to this discussion. - GTBacchus( talk) 20:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I am new to amokolia. here are some new links
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Amightyfortressisour god ( talk • contribs) 00:54, September 27, 2006 (UTC)
Howdy! I've created Wikipedia:Administrator Review as a process proposal, and I would like your thoughts on the subject. - CHAIRBOY ( ☎) 05:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
You've been hit in the face with a WP:SNOWball! >Radiant< 22:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. I have been requested to remove merge request and since I am new I will.I do however think that Mormonism has an undue amount of pages. I have yet to see any other religion have an eighth of as many pages. I will leave all requests now only on edit pages. If you look up Catholic you will find few pages however Mormon or LDS (same thing) get all the pages listed below (maybe more hiding). I feel Mormons want very much to be seen.
Category:Latter Day Saint films Category:Latter Day Saint music
Category:Latter Day Saint denominations Category:Latter Day Saint doctrines, beliefs, and practices
Category:Latter Day Saint doctrines regarding deity Category:Latter Day Saint hierarchy crossreferences to Latter Day Saint leaders Category:Latter Day Saint ordinances, rituals, and symbolism Category:Mormonism and controversy
Category:History of the Latter Day Saint movement
Category:Notable people in Latter Day Saint history crossreferences to Significant places in Mormonism
Category:Latter Day Saint leaders
Category:Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Category:Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Category:Latter Day Saint texts
Category:Book of Mormon Category:Latter Day Saint periodicals
Category:Notable Latter Day Saints
crossreferences to Notable people in Latter Day Saint history
Category:Organizations related to Mormonism
crossreferences to Latter Day Saint denominations and Latter Day Saint hierarchy
Category:Significant places in Mormonism
Category:Latter Day Saint temples
This seems like alot to me. Most could be moved to Mormonism. However If you do not agree I will respect your desicion. PEACE —Preceding unsigned comment added by Impending ( talk • contribs) 03:12, September 28, 2006 (UTC)
Basically, my block extension was based on a further review of his recent activities. As now exemplified by the bold-face message across the top of his talk page (which I plan to remove shortly), he never has been civil, and every indication, including his unblock request, shows that he has no plans to. However, I've now been pointed to his block log, which shows that, after a flurry of blocking and unblocking, he's been blocked for 6 months by Danny for harrassing the office, so I imagine he's mooted the point. -- InShaneee 16:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing the title of the article. It rolls a bit awkwardly off the tongue, and I expect many will search for the "of" title rather than the "for" title, but now it seems to match the official one. It would really depend on their legal documents. Other orders mostly use "of" in similar titles, such as Little Sisters of the Poor, so the confusion is natural, but Wikipedia is now in agreement with the order's website. Edison 05:55, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
No problem. What you did was fine. If someone wants to move it back, they can request again. Thanks for the letting me know. - Ganeshk ( talk) 09:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)