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What are you talking about? Don't you see that I improved the existing article? You are free to block this IP anytime. It will be yet another proof that Wikipedia is ruled by idiots.-- 71.178.101.2 ( talk) 00:50, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I strongly disapprove of your decision as a Wikipedia propagandist to censor the critical comments about Martin Lewis, the self-styled "MoneySavingExpert".
You had no right to silence that perspective on Lewis. It is an important view that is corroborated by articles in the very corporate-controlled media in which Lewis works.
Through your repulsive censorship, you bring great discredit to Wikipedia, "Dennis".
Furthermore, it is very difficult to believe that your public persona is even genuine. You strike me as being a fake. You claim to be based in North America but yet focus heavily on the political and economic activities of the United Kingdom. That's what singles you out as a bogus shill who works this internet resource for corrupt personal gain.
Wikipedia is a very worse place through your presence. You should resign, "Dennis" — Preceding unsigned vitriol added by 2.100.15.30 ( talk) 03:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC) .
Could you possibly consider semi–protection for Battle of Antietam? With the exception of me fixing a misplaced parenthesis, of the last 50 edits going back less than a month to April 23, all of the edits have been IP vandalism or someone reverting them. Thanks. Mojoworker ( talk) 17:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think. Thank you. Onceangle574 ( talk) 01:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis, protection templates don't seem to support UK date formats, because your addition of a protection template to Sexual reproduction put it in Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates. This is obviously not ideal, and I've brought this issue up at the technical village pump. Graham 87 01:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Your remark was noted. Since I am already here, can you or anyone else interested be so kind to finally help us solve this issue on whether the Kosovo War can be considered part of the Yugoslav Wars or not? Me and user:Joy posted over two dozen sources supporting the claim, while user:DIRECTOR still denies it. It is a deadlock so other users need to give an unbiased, neutral verdict on the topic. -- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 16:29, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Dennis, you might be an asset if discussion proceeds to Medcab, as I have recommended. Just to get your view on this, as I thought I saw something brilliant but nobody else has seen it yet. If I proposed List of minor planets: 200001-201000 for deletion (well, if I did it it'd be pointy but if an uninvolved party did it), there would be a string of immediate keeps. But all the deletion reasons I stated at RFC/U apply. The community recognizes that in this case a thousand-item sublist is nonnotable and notability is not inherited, but also that notability does not limit list content (and unlimited list content is handled by summarization), a list topic is notable if discussed as a group or set, and that the entirety of the list does not need to be documented in (secondary) sources. Summarization shifts the question from the intractable N debate to the better questions of DUE and other content policies.
Even though other stuff technically doesn't affect us, it can be used to determine an overall view of something. My question is: What is the difference between the sublist of planets I linked and a single UFC event like UFC 27? It seems they're both nonnotable as a topic; they're both list-notable, meaning, appropriate for listing on a notable list; both lists, if unsummarized, would contain more data than appropriate article size suggests; and thus that event breakdown is equally acceptable as year breakdown for how to spin out the summary article into nonnotable subarticles. I can grant that the knee-jerk reaction (mine as well) was that for an article to exist it must be notable; but these longstanding list-breakout exceptions have been a quiet admission that this is not always true, and WP:N supports this. Can you at least see that this has hopes of uniting the !factions? Thank you.
A couple sentences useful to this discussion appear here. JJB 17:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm trying to follow your logic, and may need to follow up, but I did some actual searching instead of just relying on memory. It takes a bit to break down, so bear with me. These types of conversations are difficult for the fanbase to follow, as they are less concerned with the core policy concerns, and not much easier for the experienced editor either, so if I fail to make a point clear, just ask for clarification. As to the lists of planets, I haven't looked at it and would tend to think that, yes, WP:WAX applies and it may or may not be notable for inclusion. Just as I've done for all my participation at the MMA events, I'm forced to only consider the application of policy as it applies properly here, for the purpose of making a final decision that doesn't need to be revisited once someone deletes the planet article. I know that isn't the answer you are hoping for, but I'm forced to consider the MMA project against policy as a whole, rather than comparing to what has managed to slip through the system.
You can't compare a "List" with and "article" in the way you are trying to because the standards are somewhat different, even if both have to pass GNG. For example, you can have parts of a list that are not notable by themselves, or lists of items to which none are individually notable, if you can still satisfy WP:GNG that the entirety has been covered by multiple reliable sources (the planets may qualify for this, btw). Reading WP:LIST..
Notability guidelines apply to the inclusion of stand-alone lists and tables. Notability of lists (whether titled as "List of Xs" or "Xs") is based on the group. A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles.
To me, this says that as long as the list on the whole is talked about (say, all of UFC in 2012, or all minor planets and you are just organizing them in a logical fashion) then you can include all the events that happened in 2012, even if you don't have a source for each event, at your option. You are also able to list only the notable ones, if you so choose. This is the rationale for the omnibus, which is independent from whether or not any individual article exists. It does't say anything about articles spun out of a list, so I have to assume it doesn't treat them differently as no exception is given. Once an article is a stand alone article, it must pass WP:GNG. All other subsets (ie: the essay WP:MMANOT) are technically irrelevant as they get their authority from GNG. But before I jump to conclusion, lets make our rounds at all the possible policies and guidelines that might offer us some relief.
Up even higher is WP:NRVE, "The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. " with independent being a common issue when the sources come from MMA only sources. It does not make an exception for articles spun out of a list, so this provides us with no policy based exception.
A closer glance at WP:GNG, the Holy Grail for notability, clearly differentiates the two "stand-alone article or stand-alone list", and clearly gives the exact same criteria for demonstrating notability for either. So in general, it is saying that all "mainspace pages" must provide significant coverage from multiple reliable sources, etc. But we continue our search....
If you look up one paragraph from WP:LISTN, you find the paragraph on sports events which states For example, routine news coverage such as press releases, public announcements, sports coverage, and tabloid journalism is not significant coverage. which sets the bar for which types of coverage can and can not be used for the purpose of establishing notability. It is very common for a source to be fine to establish fact, but not establish notability. Examples of this include primary sources being used to document the birthday of a person.
Returning to the Manual of Style guidelines, specifically WP:LIST, we see the purpose of lists, including "Information", justified as "The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists." which provides the rationale for the omnibus, but not the criteria for its inclusion, which is covered in WP:GNG. WP:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists is more specifically applicable, with WP:LSC being most interesting, as it discusses both lists of notable and not-notable topics in a list, but offers no guidance as to special exceptions for spinouts, or even notability in general.
Lastly, we consider WP:Content forking, and more specifically WP:SPINOFF. The majority of this guideline covers potential NPOV problems, which are not relevant in this discussion. It does not provide an exemption for inherited notability for child articles. The closest example I can find is the statement "Spinouts are intended to improve readability and navigation, not to evade Wikipedia's content policies." which isn't directly related but would indicate that the only reason for spinouts to exist is to improve readability and navigation, not to make them exempt from any other policy, which one would assume includes WP:N. As such, all spin outs should be held to the same standard as any other stand-alone article.
I have spent a great deal of time researching this, both before and now, and because WP:N is so clear in setting the criteria, and I can find no policy (or even guideline) that offers relief in the form of an exception, I can only conclude that the consensus of the community is that all articles and lists should be treated equally in the eyes of establishing notability. This is also consistent with my previous experiences. I'm open minded, but no one has provided me with a link to where this exception is, so I'm forced to conclude that an exception does not exist. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:02, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
You make some excellent points, and it is refreshing to talk to someone on this topic that has a good understanding of the policy issues involved and actually cares that we apply them properly. I had not thought of it from the summary position. I still have a few concerns as this is just a little bit outside of the normal use for summary articles, which are more common for stand-alone articles, and not stand-alone lists, and because stand-alone lists don't have the burden of demonstrating notability of individual entries, and you are summarizing out of them, this means you can technically have a notable list, with a non-notable entry, with a spun out article that itself is not notable. I don't have the answer right off the top of my head for that, and honestly, I have to ponder that to give it the proper consideration that it deserves. That IS an interesting concept, and it a lot easier to discuss it here without disruption from either "side" of the issue. I'm not convinced, but I'm open minded, so give me a bit to study and reply proper. On another note, as someone who has been in the mix of MMA as an observer for a while and is familiar with the difficulty of dealing with the personalities, I don't envy your role. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Don't thank me too soon. And I'm quite communicative with people who communicate as well as you have. Reading WP:SUMMARY confirmed by initial gut thinking, that it doesn't apply here. The word "list" doesn't exist in the entire text, and it appears to go to great pains to specify "articles" is a very specific way, to the point of redundancy. The second issue is the "References" section, which states:
Each article on Wikipedia must be able to stand alone as a self-contained unit. The Verifiability policy requires that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed to a reliable, published source in the form of an inline citation. This applies whether in a parent article or in a summary-style sub-article.
So even if it applied to lists, every article still must pass its own WP:GNG test, as I previously indicated. You may be correct that many people "let this slide" from time to time on articles, and likely it is because the consensus of them believe that the information is better served outside the primary article. IE: WP:IAR and it only works because everyone agrees to follow IAR. In most cases, the spin out IS properly sourced, however, and not an issue. As to "why break it up later life" and such, that is more a matter of accepted custom and doesn't really apply here. Breaking down sports by year or season also passes MOS. That is more a matter of how we organize the omni, and isn't relative to the break out articles, so will leave that for another day.
I have to wonder if the reason WP:SUMMARY seems to take great pains to exclude lists is because of the "notability paradox" that you have a notable list A that rightfully has a non-notable section B, that is spun out to make a non-notable article B plus, and we are supposed to expect no one to AFD it. We don't have the authority to tell people they can't go to AFD. I don't think ArbCom would even be so bold as to make an entire category of articles "off limits to AFD". There are plenty of people in this discussion and in the wider Wikipedia community that would take exception to this, and there is no way we can force them to NOT bring this to AFD. In short, the plan has two fatal flaws, of which only one could possibly be overcome. WP:SUMMARY doesn't cover lists, so you would have to use WP:IAR to apply it, and even if people agreed to that, it literally demands that the article passes WP:GNG by being exceedingly specific and detailed on this point. If I've missed something, by all means point it out, because it does get complicated at this level. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, now we're talking. (1) "SUMMARY doesn't apply"? First, stand-alone " lists may be articles". Second, the omission of the word "list" in SUMMARY is an argument from silence. So your conclusion of inapplicability doesn't follow.
(2) "V applies": I referred to this above, V does apply. The event article content has a primary source, and secondarily Yahoo Sports or periodical when possible. But first, standing alone does not mean standing alone for N, in context it means standing alone for V; and second, not every article must pass GNG, which is why we have SNG and local consensus as well. Local consensus of N on an article that fails GNG and SNG is not IAR; the rule doesn't say articles that fail GNG must be deleted, it says articles that pass GNG cannot be deleted for N. So here your conclusion that events must pass GNG doesn't follow.
(3) "Let this slide"? I'm not arguing that editors of these articles let anything slide, if I thought it was sliding I'd make my own simple AFD. The only rules being ignored that I can see are not policy, rules like "every article topic must be notable", not what N says. You then hint that maybe all these consensi (love those Latin plurals) are not letting things slide, but they are "excepted custom"; but under either homonym, you seem to consider adhoc breakdowns of bios and sports event lists as permitted, but with UFC events you regard one breakdown as permitted (by-year) and a different breakdown as flawed (by-event).
The reason that most editors seem not to get this is that a one-event (5-to-7-fight) article doesn't look like a spinout. Newman read everything I wrote but still thinks I'm arguing that the one-event article is notable; it appears this is because of this basic reaction "it's an event, it must be notable, but if it's a list, the listmakers must have a reason", which was also my first reaction. But Newton's later life doesn't look like a spinout either. (The failure in the lead is incorrect and is something that editors let slide, and I would edit it if I took some time to find out how to fix it, but that's beside my point.) All the same, if I stopped by to AFD Newton's later life, I would be roundly stopped by regulars who point out that it's excepted (and accepted) as Newton is notable and this is "part of" the Newton article that just didn't fit there. So:
(4) "Can't go to AFD"? Of course people can go to AFD. But only if an AFD finds that there is a broader opposite consensus larger than the local consensus do the fireworks happen. (Then the question becomes whether the whole project is off-balance or the outside editors are just not recognizing a compliant set.) Anyone who AFD'd any one of the minor planets sublists, or all 200+ of them at once, "can" go there, but if they are in good faith they will leave pretty quickly. The same can be true here. In your plan, if we had list of UFC events, plus one omnibus for each year, plus say 10% of the 200 individual events according to event notability, then it would be a Bad Idea to AFD "2000 in UFC events" for lack of sourcing and nonnotability in all RS. This fails because the omnibus is a breakout of the notable topic "list of". What I'm saying (sorry for repetition) is that if the events rather than the years are the breakout level, if there are no year articles at all, then the 200 event articles are each nonnotable portions of a notable topic just like the 200 minor planets sublists, and they are preserveable by local consensus that they are valid spinouts.
So the solution is that people are free to AFD; then the project members respond that the information is V and primarily sourced, that WP:PRESERVE would tell us to merge the data, but that merge has already been considered and rejected and the present format accepted as the best org. That is, there is no new deletion argument if it's just N. People don't generally object to preserving the data, because it appears spread around the "list of" article and the fighter articles. The only objection is that the article looks like a notability failure, when it's actually a nonnotable breakout that is agreed to be best organized as such.
(5) If we can hash this out ourselves, or else agree to disagree at some point, then it might be worth bringing in broader discussion afterward. To me the relevant guideline is that (SUMMARY) local projects should determine best breakup and so we are free to choose a per-event breakup (that's still not the lowest hierarchy level, which is individual fights within the event), in accord with practice at other projects. But at any rate, thanks again for your time. JJB 23:50, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I get your point that Summary focuses on WP:V rather than WP:N, but still says "Each article on Wikipedia must be able to stand alone as a self-contained unit." which I interpret to mean, must pass WP:N. A stand alone unit would imply it is held to the same standards as any other article, or else it wouldn't be "stand alone". Lists can be articles, but the fact that Summaries doesn't even mention lists is telling. It doesn't even say "treat lists that are articles, the same as articles". You wouldn't think that type of omission would be accidental. In most Summaries, at least from articles, this is a non-issue as the sources are just merged over to support the secondary article. More importantly, it won't stop the flood of AFDs. PRESERVE don't come into play because if the core info is already in the omni, and Preserve says that merge is one option, it becomes a somewhat moot point. It is already preserved whether or not you delete the article. I would have to say that you and I have similar understanding of many things, but not how it applies here. I can see that we interpret from different ends of the same spectrum. It looks like your focus is on finding a way to keep all articles, and searching for a way to make that fit the existing policies. That is fine enough, but I'm not sure your interpretation is consistent with a majority of editors.
Just as important, my experience has been that many of the individual articles will still not likely to stand up in AFD if they are held to the WP:N standard, which I maintain applies even if you do accept Summary as applying to lists, so in the end we still end up with a lot of AFDs and controversy, and two sides of a debate that are no closer than they started. I don't see this as a step forward, just another version of the same problem. I've already invited you to get outside opinions on these points, and I still do, but I don't see this as being a viable solution, for both policy and practical reasons. Interesting, to be sure, but not viable. Would love to hear some perspectives from others and I'm still open to being persuaded, but I'm not so far. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
For clarification of both the above and the next section, yes, I used IAR quite a bit early on because there was an open RFC, not just an RFC/U, and my initial sentiments were supported when several other editors agreed on discussing content as well in accord with my approach. I basically attempted, and I believe largely succeeded, to use RFC/U partly as a clean slate for the RFC concerns. Then, as the concerns about discussing content came out later, I backed off and referred that discussion to Medcab (which I may still open). That's just to say that while there is concern about my pressing content questions now, there was not originally, and so I responded in each case in light of the situation then existing.
I don't mind agreeing to disagree, though I'm disappointed you didn't find the time to look into the applications even though you looked through the policies. Declining to answer my last two questions suggests to me that the conversation about these two paradigms is far from over, though I don't know how much part I'll take in it; MMA is a very interesting microcosm for testing these more global paradigms. I do appreciate your being the first person to hear and understand the paradigm, even though you don't see the evidence for it in the same light. JJB 20:30, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello Dennis,
I know you have a history with MMA and Agent00f but I have been able to reason with him. Would you be willing to cool off for a day before you post more on his user RfC. I can see you and JJB have been in a constructive dialog about policy as it pertains to MMA content. I think there is some potential for defusing this situation.
I'd appreciate your willingness to think this over seriously even though you have strong opinions.
Sincerely,
Factseducado ( talk) 03:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I got involved because many, many admins here have suggested many times to simply nuke all the MMA articles, delete them all. My goals was to implement the omni system, which was moving slowly forward before Agent showed up. It wasn't painless, but it was moving forward. That is my issue with Agent. I don't care what someone says about me personally, I am truly unaffected by the rude remarks from people I don't know. I did care that it set the whole project back months. You can thank Agent for that. That is why I am confused as to why you cling to him. I don't care about MMA articles strongly one way or the other, which is why could serve as a neutral party. If you don't have a truly neutral party to help bring the two sides together, you won't get progress. Good luck finding anyone. I was privately told that I was a fool for doing it, by a great number of people whom I consider friends. I don't see too many volunteers willing to help, unless they have a bias, thus not neutral. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
MedCab may indeed be an excellent solution to the MMA discussions. It is not an option for dealing with the behavior of Agent, which is my only focus. I left the MMA discussions, what happens there is no longer my concern. They are two different things, and I am only concerned about one of them. As to my other comments, I mean no offense but it is based on my observation and isn't inherently insulting at all. I'm not the only one who has observed this, if you note. It doesn't make you a bad person or make you guilty by association, nor have I implied that. Assuming good faith doesn't require you ignore acts of bad faith. I've made it clear a great while ago that I think Agent is acting in bad faith, and his actions since then have only reinforced my belief. I am not alone in this assumption. I can not assume good faith in his overall actions, and policy doesn't require that I do since the reasons for the assumption of bad faith are laid bare for the world to see. Policy only dictates that I am civil, and I feel quite comfortable with my level of civility. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey Dennis, looks like some peculiar editing again by
User:Scottdelaney1067. I don't think there's any nefarious intent, but perhaps it's an over–ambitious neophyte editor. So, since
User:HJ Mitchell seems to have gone on Wikibreak, I guess you're my new "go to" admin
. I've been waiting until the dust settled to congratulate you on your successful RfA, and I was happy to support you in that effort. At the time, I saw your comment on ANI and thought to myself "that took a lot of courage", during an RfA, to speak up and support someone who had !voted against you in a disagreement with someone who had up until that time, supported you. I leave it to the reader to determine which editor emerged from that whole shit storm with my enhanced respect. I'm glad it didn't derail your RfA. Oh, and I like the picture of the smoker on your user page, but am dismayed there's mention of "slaw" on the same page...that's just wrong man. Are you by chance anywhere near Asheville? I love that place. It's on my short list of places to someday consider retiring to.
Mojoworker (
talk)
04:49, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis, Um can you look at this edit for me: ( [1]), because an admin is trying to bribe me from not posting at WP:AN. Khvalamde : Argue, Scream, Chat, Yell or Shout 04:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is invited to contribute, at least one of
your recent edits, such as the one you made to
Tinga Tinga Tales, did not appear to be constructive and has been
reverted or removed. Please use
the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the
welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia.
Gwen
Chan
11:18, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Please stop your
disruptive editing. If you continue to alarm me by posting to my talk page with section headings like
Tinga Tinga Tales, thus making me think that our curious friend is back and nearly giving me a heart attack, you may be
blocked from editing. I am also really disappointed that you and Gwen have sorted it out: I would have loved an excuse to block you.
JamesBWatson (
talk)
20:27, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Dennis. Thanks for fixing the redirect. For what it's worth, the main article has been unprotected and stable for a long time now, and with the legal proceedings over and done with, it's unlikely there'll be any more media frenzies to attract edit warriors. Then again, since it's a redirect page that is unlikely to require further editing ever again, I suppose there's no harm in protecting it forever. So I'd say you made a good call. If you want to mark my request resolved or not done or whatever, I have no objection. Rivertorch ( talk) 21:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I formatted everything perfectly
Egg
Centri
c
02:01, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Any chance of a more even-handed word from you here? Can you just briefly vouch that I've left Osborne and Mervyn King alone, and am actually capable of dispassionate discussion, for example? All they are doing is spotlighting the negative, leaving the positive in the dark. There's been a flood of people who would dearly love to see me banned show up, and just one person who seems to have attempted AGF. AGF was not required in any event, since I have refuted the two charges.
Recall that I got that user Wnt, a neutral, to make the edits I thought needed adding to Osborne's article. I'm staying away from those who brought out the worst in me up till now, and the associated articles (Osborne and King).
So, yeah: I'm currently up for a permaban on the basis of two "misunderstandings" about a couple of edits I made to the Second Intifada. The person has, as far as I am concerned—though I've not jumped to accuse him like he has with me—lied about the nature of one edit, and then made, at the very least, a mistake of his own regarding the other. Since last we spoke, there has been a complaint about some silly comments on someone else's talk page (I deleted them without hassle as soon as it was requested by an admin(?)), but I'm not sure what the problem is there, since the person's whose talk page it was not the one who made the complaint, and the owner of the talk page posts utter rubbish himself on it and mine. No complaint from me; none from me. Even though he was rabidly 'pro'-Israel, I wrote a lengthy defence against his being permanently banned. Yet I'm always the unreasonable one, and others get off scott free because I'm easier going than they are. I've never initiated a formal complaint against anyone, despite some of the rubbish I've seen added and material removed, and despite the way others have spoken to me. There seems to be a tactic used by people of taking umbrage at anything and everything to get people banned, particularly on Israel-Palestine.
An ill-advised post—though I'm still not 100% sure what the problem is with simply pointing out that something is racist—about what I regarded as blatantly racist material that people had posted, and that about rounds it out since last we spoke here. I stayed out of the racism thing when told to as well, to note. Quite how two false allegations, coupled with some po-faced complaining about what I write on someone else's talk page when its owner had no problem with it, warrants a permaban is beyond me.
If you don't feel like sticking an oar in—well, don't! ~ Iloveandrea ( talk) 04:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, I think it's safe to say I have been violating minor-edit regulations on an industrial scale! Seriously, on that basis virtually none of my minors actually are minor, and I make quite a few of what I regard as minor edits.When not to mark an edit as a minor edit:
*Adding or removing content in an article
*Adding or removing visible tags or other templates in an article
*Adding or removing references or external links in an article
*Adding comments to a talk page or other discussion
To be honest, what's with the minor tag anyway? Who the hell pays any attention to it? If an article is on my watchlist, I check absolutely everything. You'd have to be trusting to the point of idiotic naivety to trust anything anyone ever does in this place. Besides, if you hack out 20k of material and tag it m, who is ever going to get away with it? Seems a completely pointless feature of Wikipedia, both in terms of using it to try and cover up stuff and in terms of flagging possible wrongdoing (unless there's something I don't know about). An edit should just be an edit. ~ Iloveandrea ( talk) 05:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Help desk/Header has been full-protected for 4 years. The protection summary was "high-risk template", though its only real use is at the help desk page (others include some userpages, archives, etc). I think a semi-protect ought to cover whatever actual risk is involved. I came across this because I wanted to perform a rather simple tweak (center the search boxes), but on general principle I think the full-protect is unwarranted. The header has 40 watchers, and the full can always be re-enabled if there are problems (since it's been full-protected for so long there's no evidence of that yet). Equazcion (talk) 12:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ Talk Email 17:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed your action/explanation at WP:RFPP regarding Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. You might want to check that article's talk page and add a comment to the existing semi-protection discussion there, just for completeness' sake. Thanks. — Rich wales 01:27, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
It would appear that things are progressing in the right direction. Well done! (If I were into barnstars, I'd probably give you one.) I'm taking you off my watchlist, but you do know how to contact me - if you ever wish to, please don't hesitate to do so. Good luck and best wishes! Cheers, Pdfpdf ( talk) 09:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I see you have left Anthony Bradbury a message about the User Talk page, I have asked for it to be restored as U1 does not apply to user talk pages. I also have found my sock scene twitching with this 1 month old user so his talk page may help identify any sock-relationship. Mt king (edits) 01:05, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Please run as many check users as possible. I heartily endorse it. I have never been a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet. I have never encouraged a sockpuppet or meatpuppet. I have no knowledge of anyone who has been or is a sockpuppet or meatpuppet. If I could demand a check I would. Factseducado ( talk) 01:23, 21 May 2012 (UTC) Dennis, I have not been posting as an IP. Your statement is again the misleading and I think you are well aware of that since I have explained exactly what happened. A number of times going back many weeks I have been logged out of WP for no reason known to me. I have then logged in and identified myself with the comments written as an IP. I feel threatened by your writing that you can find my hometown using my IP. Is that what you intend? Factseducado ( talk) 01:27, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Donald, fancy meeting you here.
Dennis, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there circumstances when it's OK to have multiple accounts, as long as they aren't being used in an abusive manner? I only have one, but I've considered creating a second account myself to use in contentious topics that I avoid because I don't want to get involved in the drama. You and Elen probably have more info than the rest of us, and I agree that his accusations against you are wildly peculiar, but since User:NewtonGeek hadn't edited anything but his own user page, can that really be evidence of socking? Could the creation of User:NewtonGeek, along with Factseducado's RTV, perhaps be a botched attempt at a FreshStart?
Mojoworker (
talk)
18:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Dennis, can you please undo the archiving that Jasper did at ANI, if you think it's appropriate. Based on his edit summary, Jasper seems to think he can archive it because he started it. That might be so if there wasn't subsequent discussion, but the discussion was not only ongoing, it was spreading to other areas, not just the ban but the blocks themselves, by various admins and other senior editors. I don't want to battle with Jasper over this. If you agree with Jasper, that's fine, too. I suppose the discussion can continue above the subsection, but it's annoying for him to be so quick on the trigger finger. Let me know what you think.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 18:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Scottywong seems to love coding and knows the API. EQ loves to tweak the interface. TParis likes to code as well, and he seems to like "order" in things. And yes it is work, change always is. You reduce the load by doing it in the spirit of rock soup. You start the thing, get a few, they bring their friends and contacts, everyone does a little, or someone just jumps in and makes it work. On projects like this, typically what is missing is leadership to get things started, and keep it on track. That would be your role. Make this happen, then soon after start your RfA while everyone is feeling warm and fuzzy about you :) I would co-nom you, although I doubt that would help you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Interesting statement: Ent doesn't seem to care much for me either, although I have no idea why -- how would "caring for you" improve Wikipedia? Nobody Ent 23:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
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Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something silly. |
Righteous block, but what's this about coming to ANI???? The editor was obviously trolling and can/should discuss on their talk page with an appropriate unblock request -- not need to hash out on ANI Nobody Ent 18:25, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
The trout is for inviting them to discuss on ANI -- any unblock discussion doesn't really need to leave their talk page. Nobody Ent 18:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
That's not realistic. Some users are just going to play games until physically stopped. I've seen no sign you're block happy and I've never been one to call for blocks when good faith can be applied, but really -- the main page?? Now their unblock request is being all who me? Don't let them waste your time -- some other admin will come eventually and review the unblock request. Nobody Ent 18:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Has semi-protection been removed early? Because this was supposed to last for a few months and expire 12 August 2012. See the talk page for further details on the currently ongoing "cyber-dispute" due to recent events, and the article history for examples of disruptive editing by IP editors from both countries. -- 李博杰 | — Talk contribs email 02:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
hi,,, User:Lalith10 ( talk) has been Vandalising my talk page ( my talk page history), for that i have reverted his edits. pls look into this matter !!! regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 12:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC).
[6] Nobody Ent 16:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
User:99.251.114.120 99.251.114.120 ( talk) 04:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry about the format but I am now getting tag-teamed by some of the same gang again...LOL. Please have a look at the events taking place on my talk page and give me some instruction on how to proceed with ammends of defences to end this. Your time would be appreciated. My edit time is just being wasted, now. Thanx! 99.251.114.120 ( talk) 03:12, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Good find. This set of hoaxes goes even deeper than you thought. I just sent similarly hoaxy Haweli Ek Paheli to AFD. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:09, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Greetings Dennis,
Not sure how to address this issue, so I'll just jump right in and let you figure out what to do. IP 46.12.192.244 ( talk · contribs) has breached twice in 2 days, the 1RR rule that's currently in place at WP:NCMAC. I have issued 2 NCMAC warnings on each occasion; but I'm not sure if this second breach for the same offence on the same article warrants a block or not. Thanks in advance. Wesley ☀ Mouse 11:08, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
yea im very mad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.101.180 ( talk) 15:35, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis. I have conserns about this article and placed a template - NPOV - the issues have not been address at all but the same user has again removed it - diff please suggest a course of action? - I wanted to immediately replace it but held myself back - Youreally can 12:05, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis - this User has said they are on the edge of reporting me for harassment - User:Rjensen diff - The issue arose about my input to a BLP noticeboard report - Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#White_Trash - Harassment is a serious charge - Have I harrassed them in any way? I have not revert warred - the user has accused me of bad faith editing and removed templates I am still not resolved about - I have edited the issue only in absolute good faith? Now he is accusing me of malicious personal attack and vandalism diff - Youreally can 22:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Please investigate and comment in regards to my contributions to this dispute - did I violate my one revert condition - Youreally can 23:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
What are you talking about? Don't you see that I improved the existing article? You are free to block this IP anytime. It will be yet another proof that Wikipedia is ruled by idiots.-- 71.178.101.2 ( talk) 00:50, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I strongly disapprove of your decision as a Wikipedia propagandist to censor the critical comments about Martin Lewis, the self-styled "MoneySavingExpert".
You had no right to silence that perspective on Lewis. It is an important view that is corroborated by articles in the very corporate-controlled media in which Lewis works.
Through your repulsive censorship, you bring great discredit to Wikipedia, "Dennis".
Furthermore, it is very difficult to believe that your public persona is even genuine. You strike me as being a fake. You claim to be based in North America but yet focus heavily on the political and economic activities of the United Kingdom. That's what singles you out as a bogus shill who works this internet resource for corrupt personal gain.
Wikipedia is a very worse place through your presence. You should resign, "Dennis" — Preceding unsigned vitriol added by 2.100.15.30 ( talk) 03:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC) .
Could you possibly consider semi–protection for Battle of Antietam? With the exception of me fixing a misplaced parenthesis, of the last 50 edits going back less than a month to April 23, all of the edits have been IP vandalism or someone reverting them. Thanks. Mojoworker ( talk) 17:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think. Thank you. Onceangle574 ( talk) 01:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis, protection templates don't seem to support UK date formats, because your addition of a protection template to Sexual reproduction put it in Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates. This is obviously not ideal, and I've brought this issue up at the technical village pump. Graham 87 01:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Your remark was noted. Since I am already here, can you or anyone else interested be so kind to finally help us solve this issue on whether the Kosovo War can be considered part of the Yugoslav Wars or not? Me and user:Joy posted over two dozen sources supporting the claim, while user:DIRECTOR still denies it. It is a deadlock so other users need to give an unbiased, neutral verdict on the topic. -- Justice and Arbitration ( talk) 16:29, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Dennis, you might be an asset if discussion proceeds to Medcab, as I have recommended. Just to get your view on this, as I thought I saw something brilliant but nobody else has seen it yet. If I proposed List of minor planets: 200001-201000 for deletion (well, if I did it it'd be pointy but if an uninvolved party did it), there would be a string of immediate keeps. But all the deletion reasons I stated at RFC/U apply. The community recognizes that in this case a thousand-item sublist is nonnotable and notability is not inherited, but also that notability does not limit list content (and unlimited list content is handled by summarization), a list topic is notable if discussed as a group or set, and that the entirety of the list does not need to be documented in (secondary) sources. Summarization shifts the question from the intractable N debate to the better questions of DUE and other content policies.
Even though other stuff technically doesn't affect us, it can be used to determine an overall view of something. My question is: What is the difference between the sublist of planets I linked and a single UFC event like UFC 27? It seems they're both nonnotable as a topic; they're both list-notable, meaning, appropriate for listing on a notable list; both lists, if unsummarized, would contain more data than appropriate article size suggests; and thus that event breakdown is equally acceptable as year breakdown for how to spin out the summary article into nonnotable subarticles. I can grant that the knee-jerk reaction (mine as well) was that for an article to exist it must be notable; but these longstanding list-breakout exceptions have been a quiet admission that this is not always true, and WP:N supports this. Can you at least see that this has hopes of uniting the !factions? Thank you.
A couple sentences useful to this discussion appear here. JJB 17:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm trying to follow your logic, and may need to follow up, but I did some actual searching instead of just relying on memory. It takes a bit to break down, so bear with me. These types of conversations are difficult for the fanbase to follow, as they are less concerned with the core policy concerns, and not much easier for the experienced editor either, so if I fail to make a point clear, just ask for clarification. As to the lists of planets, I haven't looked at it and would tend to think that, yes, WP:WAX applies and it may or may not be notable for inclusion. Just as I've done for all my participation at the MMA events, I'm forced to only consider the application of policy as it applies properly here, for the purpose of making a final decision that doesn't need to be revisited once someone deletes the planet article. I know that isn't the answer you are hoping for, but I'm forced to consider the MMA project against policy as a whole, rather than comparing to what has managed to slip through the system.
You can't compare a "List" with and "article" in the way you are trying to because the standards are somewhat different, even if both have to pass GNG. For example, you can have parts of a list that are not notable by themselves, or lists of items to which none are individually notable, if you can still satisfy WP:GNG that the entirety has been covered by multiple reliable sources (the planets may qualify for this, btw). Reading WP:LIST..
Notability guidelines apply to the inclusion of stand-alone lists and tables. Notability of lists (whether titled as "List of Xs" or "Xs") is based on the group. A list topic is considered notable if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list. The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been. Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles.
To me, this says that as long as the list on the whole is talked about (say, all of UFC in 2012, or all minor planets and you are just organizing them in a logical fashion) then you can include all the events that happened in 2012, even if you don't have a source for each event, at your option. You are also able to list only the notable ones, if you so choose. This is the rationale for the omnibus, which is independent from whether or not any individual article exists. It does't say anything about articles spun out of a list, so I have to assume it doesn't treat them differently as no exception is given. Once an article is a stand alone article, it must pass WP:GNG. All other subsets (ie: the essay WP:MMANOT) are technically irrelevant as they get their authority from GNG. But before I jump to conclusion, lets make our rounds at all the possible policies and guidelines that might offer us some relief.
Up even higher is WP:NRVE, "The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. " with independent being a common issue when the sources come from MMA only sources. It does not make an exception for articles spun out of a list, so this provides us with no policy based exception.
A closer glance at WP:GNG, the Holy Grail for notability, clearly differentiates the two "stand-alone article or stand-alone list", and clearly gives the exact same criteria for demonstrating notability for either. So in general, it is saying that all "mainspace pages" must provide significant coverage from multiple reliable sources, etc. But we continue our search....
If you look up one paragraph from WP:LISTN, you find the paragraph on sports events which states For example, routine news coverage such as press releases, public announcements, sports coverage, and tabloid journalism is not significant coverage. which sets the bar for which types of coverage can and can not be used for the purpose of establishing notability. It is very common for a source to be fine to establish fact, but not establish notability. Examples of this include primary sources being used to document the birthday of a person.
Returning to the Manual of Style guidelines, specifically WP:LIST, we see the purpose of lists, including "Information", justified as "The list may be a valuable information source. This is particularly the case for a structured list. Examples would include lists organized chronologically, grouped by theme, or annotated lists." which provides the rationale for the omnibus, but not the criteria for its inclusion, which is covered in WP:GNG. WP:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists is more specifically applicable, with WP:LSC being most interesting, as it discusses both lists of notable and not-notable topics in a list, but offers no guidance as to special exceptions for spinouts, or even notability in general.
Lastly, we consider WP:Content forking, and more specifically WP:SPINOFF. The majority of this guideline covers potential NPOV problems, which are not relevant in this discussion. It does not provide an exemption for inherited notability for child articles. The closest example I can find is the statement "Spinouts are intended to improve readability and navigation, not to evade Wikipedia's content policies." which isn't directly related but would indicate that the only reason for spinouts to exist is to improve readability and navigation, not to make them exempt from any other policy, which one would assume includes WP:N. As such, all spin outs should be held to the same standard as any other stand-alone article.
I have spent a great deal of time researching this, both before and now, and because WP:N is so clear in setting the criteria, and I can find no policy (or even guideline) that offers relief in the form of an exception, I can only conclude that the consensus of the community is that all articles and lists should be treated equally in the eyes of establishing notability. This is also consistent with my previous experiences. I'm open minded, but no one has provided me with a link to where this exception is, so I'm forced to conclude that an exception does not exist. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:02, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
You make some excellent points, and it is refreshing to talk to someone on this topic that has a good understanding of the policy issues involved and actually cares that we apply them properly. I had not thought of it from the summary position. I still have a few concerns as this is just a little bit outside of the normal use for summary articles, which are more common for stand-alone articles, and not stand-alone lists, and because stand-alone lists don't have the burden of demonstrating notability of individual entries, and you are summarizing out of them, this means you can technically have a notable list, with a non-notable entry, with a spun out article that itself is not notable. I don't have the answer right off the top of my head for that, and honestly, I have to ponder that to give it the proper consideration that it deserves. That IS an interesting concept, and it a lot easier to discuss it here without disruption from either "side" of the issue. I'm not convinced, but I'm open minded, so give me a bit to study and reply proper. On another note, as someone who has been in the mix of MMA as an observer for a while and is familiar with the difficulty of dealing with the personalities, I don't envy your role. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Don't thank me too soon. And I'm quite communicative with people who communicate as well as you have. Reading WP:SUMMARY confirmed by initial gut thinking, that it doesn't apply here. The word "list" doesn't exist in the entire text, and it appears to go to great pains to specify "articles" is a very specific way, to the point of redundancy. The second issue is the "References" section, which states:
Each article on Wikipedia must be able to stand alone as a self-contained unit. The Verifiability policy requires that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed to a reliable, published source in the form of an inline citation. This applies whether in a parent article or in a summary-style sub-article.
So even if it applied to lists, every article still must pass its own WP:GNG test, as I previously indicated. You may be correct that many people "let this slide" from time to time on articles, and likely it is because the consensus of them believe that the information is better served outside the primary article. IE: WP:IAR and it only works because everyone agrees to follow IAR. In most cases, the spin out IS properly sourced, however, and not an issue. As to "why break it up later life" and such, that is more a matter of accepted custom and doesn't really apply here. Breaking down sports by year or season also passes MOS. That is more a matter of how we organize the omni, and isn't relative to the break out articles, so will leave that for another day.
I have to wonder if the reason WP:SUMMARY seems to take great pains to exclude lists is because of the "notability paradox" that you have a notable list A that rightfully has a non-notable section B, that is spun out to make a non-notable article B plus, and we are supposed to expect no one to AFD it. We don't have the authority to tell people they can't go to AFD. I don't think ArbCom would even be so bold as to make an entire category of articles "off limits to AFD". There are plenty of people in this discussion and in the wider Wikipedia community that would take exception to this, and there is no way we can force them to NOT bring this to AFD. In short, the plan has two fatal flaws, of which only one could possibly be overcome. WP:SUMMARY doesn't cover lists, so you would have to use WP:IAR to apply it, and even if people agreed to that, it literally demands that the article passes WP:GNG by being exceedingly specific and detailed on this point. If I've missed something, by all means point it out, because it does get complicated at this level. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:11, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, now we're talking. (1) "SUMMARY doesn't apply"? First, stand-alone " lists may be articles". Second, the omission of the word "list" in SUMMARY is an argument from silence. So your conclusion of inapplicability doesn't follow.
(2) "V applies": I referred to this above, V does apply. The event article content has a primary source, and secondarily Yahoo Sports or periodical when possible. But first, standing alone does not mean standing alone for N, in context it means standing alone for V; and second, not every article must pass GNG, which is why we have SNG and local consensus as well. Local consensus of N on an article that fails GNG and SNG is not IAR; the rule doesn't say articles that fail GNG must be deleted, it says articles that pass GNG cannot be deleted for N. So here your conclusion that events must pass GNG doesn't follow.
(3) "Let this slide"? I'm not arguing that editors of these articles let anything slide, if I thought it was sliding I'd make my own simple AFD. The only rules being ignored that I can see are not policy, rules like "every article topic must be notable", not what N says. You then hint that maybe all these consensi (love those Latin plurals) are not letting things slide, but they are "excepted custom"; but under either homonym, you seem to consider adhoc breakdowns of bios and sports event lists as permitted, but with UFC events you regard one breakdown as permitted (by-year) and a different breakdown as flawed (by-event).
The reason that most editors seem not to get this is that a one-event (5-to-7-fight) article doesn't look like a spinout. Newman read everything I wrote but still thinks I'm arguing that the one-event article is notable; it appears this is because of this basic reaction "it's an event, it must be notable, but if it's a list, the listmakers must have a reason", which was also my first reaction. But Newton's later life doesn't look like a spinout either. (The failure in the lead is incorrect and is something that editors let slide, and I would edit it if I took some time to find out how to fix it, but that's beside my point.) All the same, if I stopped by to AFD Newton's later life, I would be roundly stopped by regulars who point out that it's excepted (and accepted) as Newton is notable and this is "part of" the Newton article that just didn't fit there. So:
(4) "Can't go to AFD"? Of course people can go to AFD. But only if an AFD finds that there is a broader opposite consensus larger than the local consensus do the fireworks happen. (Then the question becomes whether the whole project is off-balance or the outside editors are just not recognizing a compliant set.) Anyone who AFD'd any one of the minor planets sublists, or all 200+ of them at once, "can" go there, but if they are in good faith they will leave pretty quickly. The same can be true here. In your plan, if we had list of UFC events, plus one omnibus for each year, plus say 10% of the 200 individual events according to event notability, then it would be a Bad Idea to AFD "2000 in UFC events" for lack of sourcing and nonnotability in all RS. This fails because the omnibus is a breakout of the notable topic "list of". What I'm saying (sorry for repetition) is that if the events rather than the years are the breakout level, if there are no year articles at all, then the 200 event articles are each nonnotable portions of a notable topic just like the 200 minor planets sublists, and they are preserveable by local consensus that they are valid spinouts.
So the solution is that people are free to AFD; then the project members respond that the information is V and primarily sourced, that WP:PRESERVE would tell us to merge the data, but that merge has already been considered and rejected and the present format accepted as the best org. That is, there is no new deletion argument if it's just N. People don't generally object to preserving the data, because it appears spread around the "list of" article and the fighter articles. The only objection is that the article looks like a notability failure, when it's actually a nonnotable breakout that is agreed to be best organized as such.
(5) If we can hash this out ourselves, or else agree to disagree at some point, then it might be worth bringing in broader discussion afterward. To me the relevant guideline is that (SUMMARY) local projects should determine best breakup and so we are free to choose a per-event breakup (that's still not the lowest hierarchy level, which is individual fights within the event), in accord with practice at other projects. But at any rate, thanks again for your time. JJB 23:50, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
I get your point that Summary focuses on WP:V rather than WP:N, but still says "Each article on Wikipedia must be able to stand alone as a self-contained unit." which I interpret to mean, must pass WP:N. A stand alone unit would imply it is held to the same standards as any other article, or else it wouldn't be "stand alone". Lists can be articles, but the fact that Summaries doesn't even mention lists is telling. It doesn't even say "treat lists that are articles, the same as articles". You wouldn't think that type of omission would be accidental. In most Summaries, at least from articles, this is a non-issue as the sources are just merged over to support the secondary article. More importantly, it won't stop the flood of AFDs. PRESERVE don't come into play because if the core info is already in the omni, and Preserve says that merge is one option, it becomes a somewhat moot point. It is already preserved whether or not you delete the article. I would have to say that you and I have similar understanding of many things, but not how it applies here. I can see that we interpret from different ends of the same spectrum. It looks like your focus is on finding a way to keep all articles, and searching for a way to make that fit the existing policies. That is fine enough, but I'm not sure your interpretation is consistent with a majority of editors.
Just as important, my experience has been that many of the individual articles will still not likely to stand up in AFD if they are held to the WP:N standard, which I maintain applies even if you do accept Summary as applying to lists, so in the end we still end up with a lot of AFDs and controversy, and two sides of a debate that are no closer than they started. I don't see this as a step forward, just another version of the same problem. I've already invited you to get outside opinions on these points, and I still do, but I don't see this as being a viable solution, for both policy and practical reasons. Interesting, to be sure, but not viable. Would love to hear some perspectives from others and I'm still open to being persuaded, but I'm not so far. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:32, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
For clarification of both the above and the next section, yes, I used IAR quite a bit early on because there was an open RFC, not just an RFC/U, and my initial sentiments were supported when several other editors agreed on discussing content as well in accord with my approach. I basically attempted, and I believe largely succeeded, to use RFC/U partly as a clean slate for the RFC concerns. Then, as the concerns about discussing content came out later, I backed off and referred that discussion to Medcab (which I may still open). That's just to say that while there is concern about my pressing content questions now, there was not originally, and so I responded in each case in light of the situation then existing.
I don't mind agreeing to disagree, though I'm disappointed you didn't find the time to look into the applications even though you looked through the policies. Declining to answer my last two questions suggests to me that the conversation about these two paradigms is far from over, though I don't know how much part I'll take in it; MMA is a very interesting microcosm for testing these more global paradigms. I do appreciate your being the first person to hear and understand the paradigm, even though you don't see the evidence for it in the same light. JJB 20:30, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello Dennis,
I know you have a history with MMA and Agent00f but I have been able to reason with him. Would you be willing to cool off for a day before you post more on his user RfC. I can see you and JJB have been in a constructive dialog about policy as it pertains to MMA content. I think there is some potential for defusing this situation.
I'd appreciate your willingness to think this over seriously even though you have strong opinions.
Sincerely,
Factseducado ( talk) 03:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I got involved because many, many admins here have suggested many times to simply nuke all the MMA articles, delete them all. My goals was to implement the omni system, which was moving slowly forward before Agent showed up. It wasn't painless, but it was moving forward. That is my issue with Agent. I don't care what someone says about me personally, I am truly unaffected by the rude remarks from people I don't know. I did care that it set the whole project back months. You can thank Agent for that. That is why I am confused as to why you cling to him. I don't care about MMA articles strongly one way or the other, which is why could serve as a neutral party. If you don't have a truly neutral party to help bring the two sides together, you won't get progress. Good luck finding anyone. I was privately told that I was a fool for doing it, by a great number of people whom I consider friends. I don't see too many volunteers willing to help, unless they have a bias, thus not neutral. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
MedCab may indeed be an excellent solution to the MMA discussions. It is not an option for dealing with the behavior of Agent, which is my only focus. I left the MMA discussions, what happens there is no longer my concern. They are two different things, and I am only concerned about one of them. As to my other comments, I mean no offense but it is based on my observation and isn't inherently insulting at all. I'm not the only one who has observed this, if you note. It doesn't make you a bad person or make you guilty by association, nor have I implied that. Assuming good faith doesn't require you ignore acts of bad faith. I've made it clear a great while ago that I think Agent is acting in bad faith, and his actions since then have only reinforced my belief. I am not alone in this assumption. I can not assume good faith in his overall actions, and policy doesn't require that I do since the reasons for the assumption of bad faith are laid bare for the world to see. Policy only dictates that I am civil, and I feel quite comfortable with my level of civility. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hey Dennis, looks like some peculiar editing again by
User:Scottdelaney1067. I don't think there's any nefarious intent, but perhaps it's an over–ambitious neophyte editor. So, since
User:HJ Mitchell seems to have gone on Wikibreak, I guess you're my new "go to" admin
. I've been waiting until the dust settled to congratulate you on your successful RfA, and I was happy to support you in that effort. At the time, I saw your comment on ANI and thought to myself "that took a lot of courage", during an RfA, to speak up and support someone who had !voted against you in a disagreement with someone who had up until that time, supported you. I leave it to the reader to determine which editor emerged from that whole shit storm with my enhanced respect. I'm glad it didn't derail your RfA. Oh, and I like the picture of the smoker on your user page, but am dismayed there's mention of "slaw" on the same page...that's just wrong man. Are you by chance anywhere near Asheville? I love that place. It's on my short list of places to someday consider retiring to.
Mojoworker (
talk)
04:49, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis, Um can you look at this edit for me: ( [1]), because an admin is trying to bribe me from not posting at WP:AN. Khvalamde : Argue, Scream, Chat, Yell or Shout 04:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is invited to contribute, at least one of
your recent edits, such as the one you made to
Tinga Tinga Tales, did not appear to be constructive and has been
reverted or removed. Please use
the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the
welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia.
Gwen
Chan
11:18, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Please stop your
disruptive editing. If you continue to alarm me by posting to my talk page with section headings like
Tinga Tinga Tales, thus making me think that our curious friend is back and nearly giving me a heart attack, you may be
blocked from editing. I am also really disappointed that you and Gwen have sorted it out: I would have loved an excuse to block you.
JamesBWatson (
talk)
20:27, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi, Dennis. Thanks for fixing the redirect. For what it's worth, the main article has been unprotected and stable for a long time now, and with the legal proceedings over and done with, it's unlikely there'll be any more media frenzies to attract edit warriors. Then again, since it's a redirect page that is unlikely to require further editing ever again, I suppose there's no harm in protecting it forever. So I'd say you made a good call. If you want to mark my request resolved or not done or whatever, I have no objection. Rivertorch ( talk) 21:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I formatted everything perfectly
Egg
Centri
c
02:01, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Any chance of a more even-handed word from you here? Can you just briefly vouch that I've left Osborne and Mervyn King alone, and am actually capable of dispassionate discussion, for example? All they are doing is spotlighting the negative, leaving the positive in the dark. There's been a flood of people who would dearly love to see me banned show up, and just one person who seems to have attempted AGF. AGF was not required in any event, since I have refuted the two charges.
Recall that I got that user Wnt, a neutral, to make the edits I thought needed adding to Osborne's article. I'm staying away from those who brought out the worst in me up till now, and the associated articles (Osborne and King).
So, yeah: I'm currently up for a permaban on the basis of two "misunderstandings" about a couple of edits I made to the Second Intifada. The person has, as far as I am concerned—though I've not jumped to accuse him like he has with me—lied about the nature of one edit, and then made, at the very least, a mistake of his own regarding the other. Since last we spoke, there has been a complaint about some silly comments on someone else's talk page (I deleted them without hassle as soon as it was requested by an admin(?)), but I'm not sure what the problem is there, since the person's whose talk page it was not the one who made the complaint, and the owner of the talk page posts utter rubbish himself on it and mine. No complaint from me; none from me. Even though he was rabidly 'pro'-Israel, I wrote a lengthy defence against his being permanently banned. Yet I'm always the unreasonable one, and others get off scott free because I'm easier going than they are. I've never initiated a formal complaint against anyone, despite some of the rubbish I've seen added and material removed, and despite the way others have spoken to me. There seems to be a tactic used by people of taking umbrage at anything and everything to get people banned, particularly on Israel-Palestine.
An ill-advised post—though I'm still not 100% sure what the problem is with simply pointing out that something is racist—about what I regarded as blatantly racist material that people had posted, and that about rounds it out since last we spoke here. I stayed out of the racism thing when told to as well, to note. Quite how two false allegations, coupled with some po-faced complaining about what I write on someone else's talk page when its owner had no problem with it, warrants a permaban is beyond me.
If you don't feel like sticking an oar in—well, don't! ~ Iloveandrea ( talk) 04:51, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, I think it's safe to say I have been violating minor-edit regulations on an industrial scale! Seriously, on that basis virtually none of my minors actually are minor, and I make quite a few of what I regard as minor edits.When not to mark an edit as a minor edit:
*Adding or removing content in an article
*Adding or removing visible tags or other templates in an article
*Adding or removing references or external links in an article
*Adding comments to a talk page or other discussion
To be honest, what's with the minor tag anyway? Who the hell pays any attention to it? If an article is on my watchlist, I check absolutely everything. You'd have to be trusting to the point of idiotic naivety to trust anything anyone ever does in this place. Besides, if you hack out 20k of material and tag it m, who is ever going to get away with it? Seems a completely pointless feature of Wikipedia, both in terms of using it to try and cover up stuff and in terms of flagging possible wrongdoing (unless there's something I don't know about). An edit should just be an edit. ~ Iloveandrea ( talk) 05:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Help desk/Header has been full-protected for 4 years. The protection summary was "high-risk template", though its only real use is at the help desk page (others include some userpages, archives, etc). I think a semi-protect ought to cover whatever actual risk is involved. I came across this because I wanted to perform a rather simple tweak (center the search boxes), but on general principle I think the full-protect is unwarranted. The header has 40 watchers, and the full can always be re-enabled if there are problems (since it's been full-protected for so long there's no evidence of that yet). Equazcion (talk) 12:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ Talk Email 17:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I noticed your action/explanation at WP:RFPP regarding Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. You might want to check that article's talk page and add a comment to the existing semi-protection discussion there, just for completeness' sake. Thanks. — Rich wales 01:27, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
It would appear that things are progressing in the right direction. Well done! (If I were into barnstars, I'd probably give you one.) I'm taking you off my watchlist, but you do know how to contact me - if you ever wish to, please don't hesitate to do so. Good luck and best wishes! Cheers, Pdfpdf ( talk) 09:55, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I see you have left Anthony Bradbury a message about the User Talk page, I have asked for it to be restored as U1 does not apply to user talk pages. I also have found my sock scene twitching with this 1 month old user so his talk page may help identify any sock-relationship. Mt king (edits) 01:05, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Please run as many check users as possible. I heartily endorse it. I have never been a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet. I have never encouraged a sockpuppet or meatpuppet. I have no knowledge of anyone who has been or is a sockpuppet or meatpuppet. If I could demand a check I would. Factseducado ( talk) 01:23, 21 May 2012 (UTC) Dennis, I have not been posting as an IP. Your statement is again the misleading and I think you are well aware of that since I have explained exactly what happened. A number of times going back many weeks I have been logged out of WP for no reason known to me. I have then logged in and identified myself with the comments written as an IP. I feel threatened by your writing that you can find my hometown using my IP. Is that what you intend? Factseducado ( talk) 01:27, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Donald, fancy meeting you here.
Dennis, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there circumstances when it's OK to have multiple accounts, as long as they aren't being used in an abusive manner? I only have one, but I've considered creating a second account myself to use in contentious topics that I avoid because I don't want to get involved in the drama. You and Elen probably have more info than the rest of us, and I agree that his accusations against you are wildly peculiar, but since User:NewtonGeek hadn't edited anything but his own user page, can that really be evidence of socking? Could the creation of User:NewtonGeek, along with Factseducado's RTV, perhaps be a botched attempt at a FreshStart?
Mojoworker (
talk)
18:38, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Dennis, can you please undo the archiving that Jasper did at ANI, if you think it's appropriate. Based on his edit summary, Jasper seems to think he can archive it because he started it. That might be so if there wasn't subsequent discussion, but the discussion was not only ongoing, it was spreading to other areas, not just the ban but the blocks themselves, by various admins and other senior editors. I don't want to battle with Jasper over this. If you agree with Jasper, that's fine, too. I suppose the discussion can continue above the subsection, but it's annoying for him to be so quick on the trigger finger. Let me know what you think.-- Bbb23 ( talk) 18:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Scottywong seems to love coding and knows the API. EQ loves to tweak the interface. TParis likes to code as well, and he seems to like "order" in things. And yes it is work, change always is. You reduce the load by doing it in the spirit of rock soup. You start the thing, get a few, they bring their friends and contacts, everyone does a little, or someone just jumps in and makes it work. On projects like this, typically what is missing is leadership to get things started, and keep it on track. That would be your role. Make this happen, then soon after start your RfA while everyone is feeling warm and fuzzy about you :) I would co-nom you, although I doubt that would help you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:17, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Interesting statement: Ent doesn't seem to care much for me either, although I have no idea why -- how would "caring for you" improve Wikipedia? Nobody Ent 23:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
![]() |
Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something silly. |
Righteous block, but what's this about coming to ANI???? The editor was obviously trolling and can/should discuss on their talk page with an appropriate unblock request -- not need to hash out on ANI Nobody Ent 18:25, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
The trout is for inviting them to discuss on ANI -- any unblock discussion doesn't really need to leave their talk page. Nobody Ent 18:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
That's not realistic. Some users are just going to play games until physically stopped. I've seen no sign you're block happy and I've never been one to call for blocks when good faith can be applied, but really -- the main page?? Now their unblock request is being all who me? Don't let them waste your time -- some other admin will come eventually and review the unblock request. Nobody Ent 18:53, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Has semi-protection been removed early? Because this was supposed to last for a few months and expire 12 August 2012. See the talk page for further details on the currently ongoing "cyber-dispute" due to recent events, and the article history for examples of disruptive editing by IP editors from both countries. -- 李博杰 | — Talk contribs email 02:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
hi,,, User:Lalith10 ( talk) has been Vandalising my talk page ( my talk page history), for that i have reverted his edits. pls look into this matter !!! regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 12:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC).
[6] Nobody Ent 16:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
User:99.251.114.120 99.251.114.120 ( talk) 04:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry about the format but I am now getting tag-teamed by some of the same gang again...LOL. Please have a look at the events taking place on my talk page and give me some instruction on how to proceed with ammends of defences to end this. Your time would be appreciated. My edit time is just being wasted, now. Thanx! 99.251.114.120 ( talk) 03:12, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Good find. This set of hoaxes goes even deeper than you thought. I just sent similarly hoaxy Haweli Ek Paheli to AFD. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 06:09, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Greetings Dennis,
Not sure how to address this issue, so I'll just jump right in and let you figure out what to do. IP 46.12.192.244 ( talk · contribs) has breached twice in 2 days, the 1RR rule that's currently in place at WP:NCMAC. I have issued 2 NCMAC warnings on each occasion; but I'm not sure if this second breach for the same offence on the same article warrants a block or not. Thanks in advance. Wesley ☀ Mouse 11:08, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
yea im very mad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.46.101.180 ( talk) 15:35, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis. I have conserns about this article and placed a template - NPOV - the issues have not been address at all but the same user has again removed it - diff please suggest a course of action? - I wanted to immediately replace it but held myself back - Youreally can 12:05, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dennis - this User has said they are on the edge of reporting me for harassment - User:Rjensen diff - The issue arose about my input to a BLP noticeboard report - Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#White_Trash - Harassment is a serious charge - Have I harrassed them in any way? I have not revert warred - the user has accused me of bad faith editing and removed templates I am still not resolved about - I have edited the issue only in absolute good faith? Now he is accusing me of malicious personal attack and vandalism diff - Youreally can 22:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Please investigate and comment in regards to my contributions to this dispute - did I violate my one revert condition - Youreally can 23:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)