This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of Greater Iran sidebar template. |
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Iran Template‑class | |||||||
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Hi, I'm not used to posting templates on my articles. I just put this template on a new article on the Dulafid dynasty, which governed northwestern Iran from c. 800 until 897. Since I put this template on that article, does that mean I should put them in the list in the template of dynasties that ruled After the Islamic Conquest? Or is that an optional move, left to the discretion of the editor as to whether a dynasty is important enough to warrant being included on the template list?
Ro4444 ( talk) 08:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
If Armenia which was part of so called "Greater Iran" historically, in parallel with Azerbaijan, isn't included in the template, I don't see why Azerbaijan or others should be included. Atabəy ( talk) 22:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Politically based edits are very unfortunate. One can even see web-sites (some government affiliated) looking for the most absurd etymologies for the word "Azarbaijan" and ignoring scholarly references. But even somewhat partisan historians (anti-Iran) like Swietchowski state the obvious: " From the time of ancient Media and the Achaemenid Kingdom, Azerbaijan (the country) usually shared its history with Iran.". Frye states: "'Greater Iran' in the past included much of the Caucasus, Afghanistan and Central Asia, with cultural influences extending to China, India and the Semitic...".
Overall as I can see, this template is not pointing to any modern country articles. Just several major dynasties with their center in Iran like Afsharids, Qajars, Safavids, Sassanids, Achaemenids, Parthians and etc or dynasties that had Persianate culture or etc.. From this point of view, Armenia was part of Afsharids, Qajars, Safavids, Sassanids, Achaemenids and Parthians and some more. Armenia though had a good deal of Old Persian/Parthian influence, and had a local Zoroastrianism, but it is safe to say that once Armenia became Christian, it basically was not part of the Iranian cultural orbit and developed a distinct identity. The republic of Azerbaijan on the other hand due to the same Muslim religion and also influence of Zoroastrian before Islam, had always the same religion. And prior to the 20th century, religion was the major factor of identity and Persianate culture was strong there even after linguistic Turkification till 20th century and rise of ethnic national. The people there were called Iranians in the 19th, 18th, 17th,... and so on centuries. For example the republic of Azerbaijan intellectuals like Akhunzadeh considered themselves Iranians.
My suggestion to user Tajik : I think simply putting Caucasus and ending it with Qajar is good idea. Lets not get the template involved in any modern country article since it is only linking to big dynasties. It is also based on Frye and instead of countries I would put Caucasus.
Another suggestion, which I prefer, is to possibly end it with Qajars and leave the modern countries out. Also perhaps put the comment of Frye and couple of other major historians from google books on the template which defines the region. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 01:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't have to respond to your hyperbole, but per your comment "ideologically driven user" (if you mean me?) , let me tell you something. I think you are aware that some people might know that outside of Wikipedia, who might be doing ideologically driven stuff and etc. I can swear by God I am not affiliated with any group and just an independent person. But you know that is not true about you. So I think "ideologically driven user" is more befitting of yourself. As per "Neo-Nazi" Pan-Iranist".. Again you might want to look up in google books "Pan-Iranism Genocide" and "Pan-Turkism Genocide". I think the results are clear. I don't think Richard Frye is a pan-Iranist neither is Swietchowski. So don't insert emotional hyperbole and if you want to discuss something , do it in respectful and professional manner, so others can learn something if they are wrong.
However to respond to your historical stuff. The Caucausian Albanians you talk about are geographical term, as all the dynasties of Caucasian Albania after Christianity were Parthian/Persians. Like Mihranids and Javanshir and etc. were all Iranians. So was the Caucasian Albanian kingdom in the area. The actual Caucasian speaking groups (ethnic Caucasian Albanians) had a Christian culture and merged with Armenians with a strong overlayer of Iranian Persian/Parthian culture. There is no evidence of any Islamicate Caucasian Albanian culture. So from a cultural heritage point of view, Armenians have a better claim to Caucasian Albanians and from a linguistic viewpoint, it is Lezgins. Note Armenian language unlike that of Azerbaijani-Turkic has a Caucasian language substrate. Caucasian Albanian ceased to exist long before a formation of an Azerbaijani ethnic group, so its connection with the Azerbaijani ethnic group in the republic of Azerbaijan are not linguistic or cultural, but geographical.
However Eastern Transcaucasia also had its own Zoroastrianism. And during the Sassanid era major cities and toponyms such as Sherwan, Darband, Barda', Ganja and etc were founded. Infact the name of "Azerbaijan" and "Baku" are both Iranian. However going further with your Caucasian Albanian comparison, there is not a single line/verse of any Muslim Caucasian Albanian literature. However, one can find 114 Persian poets and writers just from one century from the general area of Sherwan and Arran [2] (and most of them everyday people with every day profession having nothing to do with court). The Sherwanshahs the longest dynasty of the area also were Persianized and Persians. The Eldiguzids were Persianate as again we see many Persian cultural elements but again nothing in Caucasian Albanian Islamicate culture. Furthermore, the urban centers of Eastern Caucasian per Diakonov, Gumilev, De Blois and primary sources like Istakhari and etc. did not speak "Caucasian Albanian" but Iranian languages. See Gumilev here: [3].
By the time of the formation of Azerbaijani ethnic group, with a heavy layer of Iranian presence [4], there was no Caucasian Albanians. Because the formation of this group is from 14th-16th century long after Caucasian Albanians. Note Gumilev: "Говоря о возникновении азербайджанской культуры именно в XIV-XV вв., следует иметь в виду прежде всего литературу и другие части культуры, органически связанные с языком. Что касается материальной культуры, то она оставалась традиционной и после тюркизации местного населения. Впрочем, наличие мощного пласта иранцев, принявших участие в формировании азербайджанского этноса, наложило свой отпечаток прежде всего на лексику азербайджанского языка, в котором огромное число иранских и арабских слов. Последние вошли и в азербайджанский, и в турецкий язык главным образом через иранское посредство. Став самостоятельной, азербайджанская культура сохранила тесные связи с иранской и арабской. Они скреплялись и общей религией, и общими культурно-историческими традициями.". If there was a Caucasian Albanian presence, then there should be at least 1-2% substrate of Caucasian Albanian words in the Turkic speaking regions of the area. However, we can see this is not the case. By the time the Seljuqs arrived, there is hardly any evidence of Caucasian Albanians as they were mostly merged with Armenians. Armenian for example does contain a Caucasian substrate. But Azerbaijani Turkic does not, because by the time of the 14th-16th century, there was not really a Caucasian Albanian culture. The Caucasian Albanian issue is used by the ideologically minded groups in order to minimize the Armenian heritage and influence of the region and in reality Caucasian Albanians were rediscovered in the 20th century and still there is too much doubt about the very existence of such a continuous group and the best hypothesis is simply people that spoke languages that are forerunners of modern Lezgins. But there is not even a single existing line of Caucasian Albanian Islamic texts and basically virtually near to nothing in Christianity. So one cannot really speak of a culture unless there is a literature and texts to go with it. Of course you will disagree, but your disagreement has no weight when you cannot provide a single line of "Caucasian Albanian" language from Islamicate culture and virtually near-zero in terms of Christianity.
As per Akhundza, [5] he had complex personality, but I quote Hamid Algar:"In all his literary activity, Āḵūndzāda showed a special interest in Iran, and he corresponded with several prominent Iranians by means of whom he hoped to influence the cultural and intellectual life of the country. Indeed, despite his loyalty to Russia and the fact that he wrote all his major works first in Azeri Turkish, not in Persian, he claimed on occasion to regard himself as an Iranian, for his father’s ancestors had been Persian, not Turkish, the family’s connection with Azerbaijan beginning only with his grandfather’s migration there from Rašt (autobiography, Alefbā, p. 349). This sense of Iranian identity along with his hostility to Islam produced in him a hatred for the Arabs and a nostalgia for pre-Islamic Iran that led him to exclude Zoroastrianism from his general strictures on religion. Among his correspondents in Tehran was Manak Limji Antaria, emissary to Iran of the Persian Zoroastrian Amelioration Fund of Bombay. In his letters to him, Āḵūndzāda enquired about various points of Zoroastrian teaching, urged the Zoroastrians to stand firm in the face of pressures for conversion, and expressed the hope that “our homeland will be purged of the followers of the alien faith [= Islam] and again become a rosegarden, with the justice of yore prevailing anew” "
And I will quote Swietchowski as well: "In his glorification of the pre-Islamic greatness of Iran, before it was destroyed at the hands of the "hungry, naked and savage Arabs, "Akhundzada was one of the forerunners of modern Iranian nationalism, and of its militant manifestations at that. Nor was he devoid of anti-Ottoman sentiments, and in his spirit of the age-long Iranian Ottoman confrontation he ventured into his writing on the victory of Shah Abbas I over the Turks at Baghdad. Akhundzadeh is counted as one of the founders of modern Iranian literature, and his formative influence is visible in such major Persian-language writers as Malkum Khan, Mirza Agha Khan and Mirza Abd ul-Rahim Talibof. All of them were advocates of reforms in Iran. If Akhundzadeh had no doubt that his spiritual homeland was Iran, Azerbaijan was the land he grew up and whose language was his native tongue. His lyrical poetry was written in Persian, but his work that carry messages of social importance as written in the language of the people of his native land, Turki. With no indication of split-personality, he combined larger Iranian identity with Azerbaijani - he used the term vatan (fatherland) in reference to both" Also linguistic bonds are discovered in the 19th/20th century too. So just because Armenian is indo-European and so is German, it does not make them have any cultural relationships. Same with concepts such as pan-Turkism. There is virtually no shared heritage or culture between a Yakut and a Kazakh and Azerbaijani. So it is a purely ideologically driven concept.
I am not here to have discussions with biased users and this was written for other users to show that I use references and logic to back up my claim, and not ideology with the above user has alleged. Simply follow Wikipedia guidelines with regards to this and other templates. I have made my suggestion to Tajik, but however the term greater Iran gets 520 hits in google books and that is more than sufficient to establish its weight and Caucasus is mentioned by Frye. Tajik can include Caucasus and be done with the conflict. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 16:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
"Greater Iran" is a mystical concept as well, as opposed to Turan, it's not even mentioned in any book as a geographic entity including countries indicated in the template. It's a WP:POV invention and an irredentist doctrine. In response to threatening me with admins and more WP:POV, I would refer to a good source:
I guess it speaks for itself about the nature of claims in this template as well. Atabəy ( talk) 22:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
The template should not be restored to prior version as it directly links to present-day nations, which have nothing to do with Iran. Follow discussion at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Template:History_of_Greater_Iran. Atabəy ( talk) 01:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Kurdo, we can't build a template just because one scholar, Richard Frye, made a definition. Much like we don't Safavid dynasty as Turkish, when Frye, among the multitude of other references, claims that Azeri Turks were its founders. There is no encyclopedic meaning for this template anyway, as the intention to add states or regions to it is not based on scholarship but on political irredentism. I understand if someone wants to emphasize the influence of Iranian culture on neighboring nations, there is a template for that known as History of Iran. But addition of word "Greater" with making another template, including clearly states and regions than anyone else can righteously claim too, is nothing more than political and non-encyclopedic. I can find you a handful of references claiming greater Turkey, greater Russia, greater Armenia and even greater Azerbaijan. There are traces of multitude of cultures on these lands. What if someone creates a Greater Arabia template and includes Iran and the whole Islamic world in it? Is this right no, can we find references for it - absolutely. Does not mean that creating a template with such name makes people appreciate the culture, and even with political intention this isn't the best way of building sympathy either. Atabəy ( talk) 21:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Date#Year numbering systems
"Do not change from one style to another unless there is substantial reason for the change, and consensus for the change with other editors."
This article used BC starting in 2006 and was changed arbitrarily. Every other template used BC/AD. There is no good reason that we shouldn't revert back to the original dating system.
This isn't a crusade, it is merely policy and there is no good reason we should deviate from it. - Schrandit ( talk) 23:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Alright, well if you won't take my word for it would you take a third opinion? - Schrandit ( talk) 21:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This is clearly the work of Mr. Tajik here. Trying to push his POV here and looks like he got away with it because many Iranian editors voted for greater iran template for some reason.
First of all this template or should i say the Pashto/Tajik editor named Tajik is trying to say that Iran is just a modern state created after the Persian empire fell, just like his home land afghanistan. Meaning Persia was not iran but both afghanistan and iran. This template and the "persian people" article have both been hijacked by people like these. They are trying to say that there is no such thing as persian people or persia anymore. Not being a wikipedia editor i cannot do anything about this but if anyone with a sense is editing here change this template to history of iran and make a new template for history of greater iran if needed. History of afghanistan/pakistan etc have nothing to do with iran, iran is and was persia, its history belongs to itself, don't let some afghan nationalist with agenda push his POV here.
And tajik, regarding your comments about nadir shahs life guards. Almost every king in history have had mercenaries. Many times because they didn't trust their own people for many reasons, a mercenary cares only about the money and nothing else. Even so nadir used people from all over iran in his army including some afghans, not as mercenaries but because he had defeated them, they belonged to him. Destroying the home town of the ghilzais and building a town called Nadir Abad should be enough proof for you, please go ahead and read some books about the matter to find out the truth other than afghan books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.159.184 ( talk) 16:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It is you that go around spreading crap about iranian women, so if anyone need to show proof it is you little one. I dont need to show any proof, just go read the news and see thousands of videos about it in youtube. If you dont want to hear the truth dont go around spreading your hatred and lies. Now deal with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.159.184 ( talk) 15:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
What definition of Iranian is being applied in this template? If it is Iranic language then the inclusion of pre-Iranic polities is obviously incorrect. I propose that those entries should be removed. If it is geographic, as in covering the generally understood territory of Greater Iran, then there are many items missing.
I can't see that any consistent definition has been used in the template. Irānshahr ( talk) 05:50, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
History of Greater Iran sidebar template. |
|
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 3 months |
Iran Template‑class | |||||||
|
Hi, I'm not used to posting templates on my articles. I just put this template on a new article on the Dulafid dynasty, which governed northwestern Iran from c. 800 until 897. Since I put this template on that article, does that mean I should put them in the list in the template of dynasties that ruled After the Islamic Conquest? Or is that an optional move, left to the discretion of the editor as to whether a dynasty is important enough to warrant being included on the template list?
Ro4444 ( talk) 08:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
If Armenia which was part of so called "Greater Iran" historically, in parallel with Azerbaijan, isn't included in the template, I don't see why Azerbaijan or others should be included. Atabəy ( talk) 22:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Politically based edits are very unfortunate. One can even see web-sites (some government affiliated) looking for the most absurd etymologies for the word "Azarbaijan" and ignoring scholarly references. But even somewhat partisan historians (anti-Iran) like Swietchowski state the obvious: " From the time of ancient Media and the Achaemenid Kingdom, Azerbaijan (the country) usually shared its history with Iran.". Frye states: "'Greater Iran' in the past included much of the Caucasus, Afghanistan and Central Asia, with cultural influences extending to China, India and the Semitic...".
Overall as I can see, this template is not pointing to any modern country articles. Just several major dynasties with their center in Iran like Afsharids, Qajars, Safavids, Sassanids, Achaemenids, Parthians and etc or dynasties that had Persianate culture or etc.. From this point of view, Armenia was part of Afsharids, Qajars, Safavids, Sassanids, Achaemenids and Parthians and some more. Armenia though had a good deal of Old Persian/Parthian influence, and had a local Zoroastrianism, but it is safe to say that once Armenia became Christian, it basically was not part of the Iranian cultural orbit and developed a distinct identity. The republic of Azerbaijan on the other hand due to the same Muslim religion and also influence of Zoroastrian before Islam, had always the same religion. And prior to the 20th century, religion was the major factor of identity and Persianate culture was strong there even after linguistic Turkification till 20th century and rise of ethnic national. The people there were called Iranians in the 19th, 18th, 17th,... and so on centuries. For example the republic of Azerbaijan intellectuals like Akhunzadeh considered themselves Iranians.
My suggestion to user Tajik : I think simply putting Caucasus and ending it with Qajar is good idea. Lets not get the template involved in any modern country article since it is only linking to big dynasties. It is also based on Frye and instead of countries I would put Caucasus.
Another suggestion, which I prefer, is to possibly end it with Qajars and leave the modern countries out. Also perhaps put the comment of Frye and couple of other major historians from google books on the template which defines the region. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 01:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't have to respond to your hyperbole, but per your comment "ideologically driven user" (if you mean me?) , let me tell you something. I think you are aware that some people might know that outside of Wikipedia, who might be doing ideologically driven stuff and etc. I can swear by God I am not affiliated with any group and just an independent person. But you know that is not true about you. So I think "ideologically driven user" is more befitting of yourself. As per "Neo-Nazi" Pan-Iranist".. Again you might want to look up in google books "Pan-Iranism Genocide" and "Pan-Turkism Genocide". I think the results are clear. I don't think Richard Frye is a pan-Iranist neither is Swietchowski. So don't insert emotional hyperbole and if you want to discuss something , do it in respectful and professional manner, so others can learn something if they are wrong.
However to respond to your historical stuff. The Caucausian Albanians you talk about are geographical term, as all the dynasties of Caucasian Albania after Christianity were Parthian/Persians. Like Mihranids and Javanshir and etc. were all Iranians. So was the Caucasian Albanian kingdom in the area. The actual Caucasian speaking groups (ethnic Caucasian Albanians) had a Christian culture and merged with Armenians with a strong overlayer of Iranian Persian/Parthian culture. There is no evidence of any Islamicate Caucasian Albanian culture. So from a cultural heritage point of view, Armenians have a better claim to Caucasian Albanians and from a linguistic viewpoint, it is Lezgins. Note Armenian language unlike that of Azerbaijani-Turkic has a Caucasian language substrate. Caucasian Albanian ceased to exist long before a formation of an Azerbaijani ethnic group, so its connection with the Azerbaijani ethnic group in the republic of Azerbaijan are not linguistic or cultural, but geographical.
However Eastern Transcaucasia also had its own Zoroastrianism. And during the Sassanid era major cities and toponyms such as Sherwan, Darband, Barda', Ganja and etc were founded. Infact the name of "Azerbaijan" and "Baku" are both Iranian. However going further with your Caucasian Albanian comparison, there is not a single line/verse of any Muslim Caucasian Albanian literature. However, one can find 114 Persian poets and writers just from one century from the general area of Sherwan and Arran [2] (and most of them everyday people with every day profession having nothing to do with court). The Sherwanshahs the longest dynasty of the area also were Persianized and Persians. The Eldiguzids were Persianate as again we see many Persian cultural elements but again nothing in Caucasian Albanian Islamicate culture. Furthermore, the urban centers of Eastern Caucasian per Diakonov, Gumilev, De Blois and primary sources like Istakhari and etc. did not speak "Caucasian Albanian" but Iranian languages. See Gumilev here: [3].
By the time of the formation of Azerbaijani ethnic group, with a heavy layer of Iranian presence [4], there was no Caucasian Albanians. Because the formation of this group is from 14th-16th century long after Caucasian Albanians. Note Gumilev: "Говоря о возникновении азербайджанской культуры именно в XIV-XV вв., следует иметь в виду прежде всего литературу и другие части культуры, органически связанные с языком. Что касается материальной культуры, то она оставалась традиционной и после тюркизации местного населения. Впрочем, наличие мощного пласта иранцев, принявших участие в формировании азербайджанского этноса, наложило свой отпечаток прежде всего на лексику азербайджанского языка, в котором огромное число иранских и арабских слов. Последние вошли и в азербайджанский, и в турецкий язык главным образом через иранское посредство. Став самостоятельной, азербайджанская культура сохранила тесные связи с иранской и арабской. Они скреплялись и общей религией, и общими культурно-историческими традициями.". If there was a Caucasian Albanian presence, then there should be at least 1-2% substrate of Caucasian Albanian words in the Turkic speaking regions of the area. However, we can see this is not the case. By the time the Seljuqs arrived, there is hardly any evidence of Caucasian Albanians as they were mostly merged with Armenians. Armenian for example does contain a Caucasian substrate. But Azerbaijani Turkic does not, because by the time of the 14th-16th century, there was not really a Caucasian Albanian culture. The Caucasian Albanian issue is used by the ideologically minded groups in order to minimize the Armenian heritage and influence of the region and in reality Caucasian Albanians were rediscovered in the 20th century and still there is too much doubt about the very existence of such a continuous group and the best hypothesis is simply people that spoke languages that are forerunners of modern Lezgins. But there is not even a single existing line of Caucasian Albanian Islamic texts and basically virtually near to nothing in Christianity. So one cannot really speak of a culture unless there is a literature and texts to go with it. Of course you will disagree, but your disagreement has no weight when you cannot provide a single line of "Caucasian Albanian" language from Islamicate culture and virtually near-zero in terms of Christianity.
As per Akhundza, [5] he had complex personality, but I quote Hamid Algar:"In all his literary activity, Āḵūndzāda showed a special interest in Iran, and he corresponded with several prominent Iranians by means of whom he hoped to influence the cultural and intellectual life of the country. Indeed, despite his loyalty to Russia and the fact that he wrote all his major works first in Azeri Turkish, not in Persian, he claimed on occasion to regard himself as an Iranian, for his father’s ancestors had been Persian, not Turkish, the family’s connection with Azerbaijan beginning only with his grandfather’s migration there from Rašt (autobiography, Alefbā, p. 349). This sense of Iranian identity along with his hostility to Islam produced in him a hatred for the Arabs and a nostalgia for pre-Islamic Iran that led him to exclude Zoroastrianism from his general strictures on religion. Among his correspondents in Tehran was Manak Limji Antaria, emissary to Iran of the Persian Zoroastrian Amelioration Fund of Bombay. In his letters to him, Āḵūndzāda enquired about various points of Zoroastrian teaching, urged the Zoroastrians to stand firm in the face of pressures for conversion, and expressed the hope that “our homeland will be purged of the followers of the alien faith [= Islam] and again become a rosegarden, with the justice of yore prevailing anew” "
And I will quote Swietchowski as well: "In his glorification of the pre-Islamic greatness of Iran, before it was destroyed at the hands of the "hungry, naked and savage Arabs, "Akhundzada was one of the forerunners of modern Iranian nationalism, and of its militant manifestations at that. Nor was he devoid of anti-Ottoman sentiments, and in his spirit of the age-long Iranian Ottoman confrontation he ventured into his writing on the victory of Shah Abbas I over the Turks at Baghdad. Akhundzadeh is counted as one of the founders of modern Iranian literature, and his formative influence is visible in such major Persian-language writers as Malkum Khan, Mirza Agha Khan and Mirza Abd ul-Rahim Talibof. All of them were advocates of reforms in Iran. If Akhundzadeh had no doubt that his spiritual homeland was Iran, Azerbaijan was the land he grew up and whose language was his native tongue. His lyrical poetry was written in Persian, but his work that carry messages of social importance as written in the language of the people of his native land, Turki. With no indication of split-personality, he combined larger Iranian identity with Azerbaijani - he used the term vatan (fatherland) in reference to both" Also linguistic bonds are discovered in the 19th/20th century too. So just because Armenian is indo-European and so is German, it does not make them have any cultural relationships. Same with concepts such as pan-Turkism. There is virtually no shared heritage or culture between a Yakut and a Kazakh and Azerbaijani. So it is a purely ideologically driven concept.
I am not here to have discussions with biased users and this was written for other users to show that I use references and logic to back up my claim, and not ideology with the above user has alleged. Simply follow Wikipedia guidelines with regards to this and other templates. I have made my suggestion to Tajik, but however the term greater Iran gets 520 hits in google books and that is more than sufficient to establish its weight and Caucasus is mentioned by Frye. Tajik can include Caucasus and be done with the conflict. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 16:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
"Greater Iran" is a mystical concept as well, as opposed to Turan, it's not even mentioned in any book as a geographic entity including countries indicated in the template. It's a WP:POV invention and an irredentist doctrine. In response to threatening me with admins and more WP:POV, I would refer to a good source:
I guess it speaks for itself about the nature of claims in this template as well. Atabəy ( talk) 22:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
The template should not be restored to prior version as it directly links to present-day nations, which have nothing to do with Iran. Follow discussion at Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Template:History_of_Greater_Iran. Atabəy ( talk) 01:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Kurdo, we can't build a template just because one scholar, Richard Frye, made a definition. Much like we don't Safavid dynasty as Turkish, when Frye, among the multitude of other references, claims that Azeri Turks were its founders. There is no encyclopedic meaning for this template anyway, as the intention to add states or regions to it is not based on scholarship but on political irredentism. I understand if someone wants to emphasize the influence of Iranian culture on neighboring nations, there is a template for that known as History of Iran. But addition of word "Greater" with making another template, including clearly states and regions than anyone else can righteously claim too, is nothing more than political and non-encyclopedic. I can find you a handful of references claiming greater Turkey, greater Russia, greater Armenia and even greater Azerbaijan. There are traces of multitude of cultures on these lands. What if someone creates a Greater Arabia template and includes Iran and the whole Islamic world in it? Is this right no, can we find references for it - absolutely. Does not mean that creating a template with such name makes people appreciate the culture, and even with political intention this isn't the best way of building sympathy either. Atabəy ( talk) 21:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Date#Year numbering systems
"Do not change from one style to another unless there is substantial reason for the change, and consensus for the change with other editors."
This article used BC starting in 2006 and was changed arbitrarily. Every other template used BC/AD. There is no good reason that we shouldn't revert back to the original dating system.
This isn't a crusade, it is merely policy and there is no good reason we should deviate from it. - Schrandit ( talk) 23:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Alright, well if you won't take my word for it would you take a third opinion? - Schrandit ( talk) 21:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This is clearly the work of Mr. Tajik here. Trying to push his POV here and looks like he got away with it because many Iranian editors voted for greater iran template for some reason.
First of all this template or should i say the Pashto/Tajik editor named Tajik is trying to say that Iran is just a modern state created after the Persian empire fell, just like his home land afghanistan. Meaning Persia was not iran but both afghanistan and iran. This template and the "persian people" article have both been hijacked by people like these. They are trying to say that there is no such thing as persian people or persia anymore. Not being a wikipedia editor i cannot do anything about this but if anyone with a sense is editing here change this template to history of iran and make a new template for history of greater iran if needed. History of afghanistan/pakistan etc have nothing to do with iran, iran is and was persia, its history belongs to itself, don't let some afghan nationalist with agenda push his POV here.
And tajik, regarding your comments about nadir shahs life guards. Almost every king in history have had mercenaries. Many times because they didn't trust their own people for many reasons, a mercenary cares only about the money and nothing else. Even so nadir used people from all over iran in his army including some afghans, not as mercenaries but because he had defeated them, they belonged to him. Destroying the home town of the ghilzais and building a town called Nadir Abad should be enough proof for you, please go ahead and read some books about the matter to find out the truth other than afghan books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.159.184 ( talk) 16:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It is you that go around spreading crap about iranian women, so if anyone need to show proof it is you little one. I dont need to show any proof, just go read the news and see thousands of videos about it in youtube. If you dont want to hear the truth dont go around spreading your hatred and lies. Now deal with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.159.184 ( talk) 15:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
What definition of Iranian is being applied in this template? If it is Iranic language then the inclusion of pre-Iranic polities is obviously incorrect. I propose that those entries should be removed. If it is geographic, as in covering the generally understood territory of Greater Iran, then there are many items missing.
I can't see that any consistent definition has been used in the template. Irānshahr ( talk) 05:50, 17 May 2013 (UTC)