Armenia Template‑class | |||||||
|
History Template‑class | |||||||
|
Why isn't Mitanni one of the predecessors of Armenia? -- Davo88 15:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
If the Egyptians referred to Mitanni as Nahrin/Nayiri and if these 2 are synonymous, both of them should be included. -- Davo88 21:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
They're synonymous, as in they both mean "land of rivers". Armenia is indeed a land of rivers, the source of Tigris and Euphrates, rivers that gave life to the whole area. Besides, if the Seljuks are cited as an Iranian civilization, we have all the right to put Mitanni as a civilization of Historic Armenia. -- Davo88 23:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, I found a new academic source that you said I needed. I found Hovick Nersessian which in the New York Academy of Sciences. He mentions that Mitanni is an Armenian kingdom also Ararat arev 23:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Being in the New York Academy of Sciences is no good? Thats not a good academic reference? Ararat arev 00:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Also Nahrin and Nairi both do mean "land of rivers" The Egyptians pronounced it Nahrin and the Assyrian pronounced it Nairi. These 2 peoples were Semitic, and they pronounced slightly different, but same meaning. The Armenians and Armenia you said didnt exist at that time? Armeni is mentioned as early as 2300 BC, not only that but all these other kingdoms that "participated" in our history. Like when you put Hittites. Hayasa, Haik, Armens is there in the Template. So whats the issue with Mitanni also being there? Ararat arev 00:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Im saying Haik, Armens, Hayasa, these are in the Template:History of Armenia, why cant we put in the Mitanni link also? Ararat arev 00:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Just tell me why those others are there in the Template, since you said Armenians didnt exist at that time. Ararat arev 00:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Hurrians who came back and built the kingdom of Urartu. These Hurrians were from Mitanni. Also, Hittite is way out of historic Armenia even. Ararat arev 00:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you forgeting Tigran the Great's Armenia's lands?
The man's time cover the entire Mitanni region, and Indo-Aryan is barely existing at that time.
So $&*#ing what? Tigranes also ruled Judea and the territory of moden Lebanon.--
Ευπάτωρ
Talk!! 00:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The Proto-IE which Sanskrit was written in, which Artak Movsisyan mentions the Mitanni names in Armenian
Ararat arev 00:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
If you also look in the Kurds page, you see that they particpated in the Mitanni. They were tribes and very close tribes with Armenian tribes. The Nairi is in their page also and Urartu even. It says these tribes were with them. So Mitanni's time Kurds tribes were there also. So our tribes like Nairi is there at that time. Mitanni participated in historic Armenians and Armenia. These tribes particpated in our ethnic history. Ararat arev 00:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Look at this:
As they settled, the Hurrians divided into a number of clans and subgroups, founding city-states, kingdoms and empires with eponymous clan names. These included the Gutis, Kurti, Khaldi, Nairi, Mushku, Mannaeans (Mannai), Mitanni, Urartu, Lullubi and the Kassites among others. All these tribes were part of the larger group of Hurrians (Khurrites), and together helped to shape the Hurrian phase of Kurdish history.[13] These groups, except the Mitanni leadership, are thought to have been non-Indo-Europeans. Ararat arev 00:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Great. Good for the Hurrians. So what?-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 00:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Speak clearly on this last part. What do you mean good for the Hurrians? You mean you agree first of all with what it says? If you do, then you see that Urartu and Nairi is in our Template right? What's missing ? Mitanni. Ararat arev 00:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
You're talking about locations here? I told you the greatest extend was in Greater Armenian during like what, 60 BC ? Which extended all those lands. Tigranes is not Armenian to you also? Another thing ethnicity has nothing to do with the locations. If you are saying Mitanni is Persians and Indians roots, where are they now? Where is their locations now? Way way down there man Ararat arev 00:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC) I have no idea how to respond to that politely. No offense but it's gibberish. You need to reconsider your involvement here.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 01:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I proved to you also. You dont seem to answer on the Persian and Indian issue . If their ethnic roots are from Mitanni also? Where are they now? Their "location" is not even close man to Mitanni's location. Ararat arev 01:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I want an answer Eupator. I told you Persians and Indians are way out of that area. Mitanni was in our ethnic roots. If Persians and Indians have their roots in Mitanni, look how far they are now. So you agree with me? Let's agree so we can add in Mitanni there. Ararat arev 01:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Remember a while ago you said Vahan Kurkjian was mentioning the location of Mitanni in Armenia? So you see there is our reference also. Ararat arev 01:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to explain to you IE migrations when you think Sanskrit is a proto-IE language... I never said that, nor is there anything stupid like that in Kurkjian's book. Understand that Mittani will never be included in this template. Any attempts by you to do so will be reverted. I will never ever again try and explain you anything. This is the end of it.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 03:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Who is this Eupator character? Don't be an ignoramus. Read facts before you resort to your own assumptions. Have you even compared Armenian hierographs with the Egyptian ones? They are similar in language and use the same words. Armenia goes back to 12000 BCE and stop searching for the exact word "Armenian". Its the same thing as finding the word "Greece" in ancient texts. You will not find it. It has variations. Pathetic fool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.19.135 ( talk) 07:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I think that Nairi should be added before Urartu given how that tribal confederation of sorts proceeded the Kingdom of Urartu. We should also add the Shulaveri-Shomu culture, Kura-Araxes culture given how it spread from the Ararat plain as well as the Trialeti culture. This seems to be standard practice with similar templates: Template:History of Greece includes Helladic and Cylcadic civilizations as well as Minoans, Template:History of Austria includes Hallstatt culture etc. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eupator ( talk • contribs) 20:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Kura-Araxes has no known connection to Armenia. It ended about 1,400 years before the Orontids even arrived in Armenia. Any connection is speculative. A tag of
is more appropriate for Kura-Araxes as you note since it addresses the archaeological history of Armenia. The same tag should, in my view, also apply to Hayasa-Azzi--all we know about Hayassa-Azzi is that it was a 13th and 12th century BC ancient kingdom and an enemy of the Hittites. No one knows if they are Armenian per se although they would be placed under the Armenia-related topic tag. In contrast, Urartu should be placed in pre-historic Armenia since it existed very close in time to the Orontid kingdom. Artene50 ( talk) 04:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
other nations have a whole heap of kingdoms, civilisations, empires ext.. which dont relate to the modern state or people, and yet they are still on the template because they once existed on their territory! where is the consistancy on this website! either include them for armenia, or piss off and delete these other ambigous entries in all other templates. no wonder people think wiki is a joke! good day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.187.44 ( talk) 12:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying Eupator but AA keeps saying or implying that Hayasa-Azzi or Kura-Araxes are descendants of Armenians of which there is no proof. Even Dbachman said that to equate Armenia with Kura-Araxes culture, in its talk page, is WP:SYN. No one knows what happens to this people after their culture disappeared. A better template, since it directly links to the archaeological history of Armenia, for Kura-Araxes is the "Armenia-related topics" which Mikkalai suggests. The same case is preferable for Hayasa-Azzi since we don't know what happened to its people after the fall of the Hittites. They would be part of the archaeology of Armenia under 'Armenia-related topics.'
In contrast, Urartu definitely belongs to the pre-historic section of Armenia because 1) it was the immediate predecessor of the Orontids and 2) there is a very strong probability that some Urartians were ancestors of today's Armenians. The last Urartu king, Rusa IV lived only 15 years (d.585 BC) before the reign of Orontes I in 570 BC. I wish there were a few good scholarly books on Urartu for me to read because some sources claim that Rusa IV died in 584 or 590 BC. (very confusing!) But Rusa IV certainly was overthrown one generation before Orontes became king. Artene50 ( talk) 19:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Eupator. An idea: Why don't you place the Armenia-related topic tag at the bottom of the
Azzi-Hayasa article (see below) as Mikkalai has done for
Kura-Araxes culture? Everyone who reads Kura-Araxes will know it is related to the archaeology of Armenia. The same can then apply for Azzi-Hayasa. If an article has too many tags, the article is distracting and the Admins will remove them.
Artene50 (
talk) 02:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:Ancient peoples]] [[Category:Archaeological cultures]] [[Category:Archaeological sites in Armenia]] [[Category:Archaeology of the Caucasus]]
This can be ignored, the template has changed since, see the next section.
I want to know what people think of the new template.
The color code:
It's organized to give an in-depth template for the full history of Armenia (geographic area and states). The states are in bold and are the main articles, some sub-sections include dynasties, minor states, vassals, key events, etc.)
Some articles that I believe deserve an article (which I may work on) are included (as in the Phrygian Theory, or the Nakhichevan deportations by Shah Abbas).
Here are two versions of the images:
Kentronhayastan ( talk) 06:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
There are problems with {{
align|right}}
for the dates. The dates are wrapping over to a new line, and then look like the correspond to the next line. there are a few ways to fix this: (1) remove the alignment, or (2) do what I did in the first section using an embedded infobox, or (3) add some nowrap around the lines, which could make the box too wide.
Frietjes (
talk) 23:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
I believe centered looks better. Plus, when a list is shown, it becomes confusing since it blends in with the periods and content. Kentronhayastan ( talk) 04:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
It appears that the user KentronHayastan removed a very important chunk of the section (Marzpanate Period --> Marzpanate Armenia) in the Antiquity. Can you please restore that part? It is the part after Commagene, we have our leader in the Christian era Vartan Mamikonian, battling against foreign rule in our land. He apparently removed this part, I dont think this user who appears is Armenian historian, is in fact ruining in a very clever way. Please look out for his changes on this matter. Thank you. 75.51.173.37 ( talk) 00:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Frost778 is suggesting we use the word Ancient instead of Antiquity, and extend its period to include (merge with) everything before it (or, age1 in the template's code). I disagree. The original template had the word "prehistory" since it covered a period before the history of Armenia per-se. He suggested we use the word "Ancient" instead of "Prehistory," which is inconsistent since Ancient and Antiquity are synonymous (see Antiquity), hence, both cannot be in the same template for different eras. I opted for "Bronze & Iron Age," since I'm assuming Frost's problem with Prehistory is because he would like to merge Armenian history with that of states that existed before Armenia (be it proto-Armenian or non-Armenian in the Armenian Highlands), consider prehistory implies "before Armenia." I figured Bronze & Iron age which is far more neutral since it doesn't give a hint on opinion on what those states represented, and fits more accurately the role of titles in the template since they represent ages. He is using the history templates of Iran and China as justification for his argument, but I don't believe that is a valid justification. Are there any other opinions? Thank you. Kentronhayastan ( talk) 05:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
First of all who is Frost? Second Im an Armenian and you appear as an imposter, even though your name in Armenian for those who dont know means Heart of Armenia.
3rd here is the real issue:
My lovely friend, you still havent gave me an answer why they have ANCIENT in 3200 BC, and why we cant, you realize these other users are slowly going to realize, if not already, what im talking about, and that you are an imposter, your name in Armenian for them that dont know means Heart of Armenia. So I suggest you either show yourself true, or you are an imposter. I told you a simple question regarding why our lovely friends of Iran Persia, can have ANCIENT in 3200 BC of there History of Iran TEMPLATE, and our History of Armenia is not allowed to in that area of time I just mentioned to you. Got it buddy?
You just changed the word to ANTIQUITY in the History of Iran part for the same 3200 BC time! You didnt do anything different there. Who are you trying to fool? Its the same meaning you put in the same era, put the same word , one of those words in the same ERA in the History of Armenia, where you have Bronze Iron Age. The issue is not if the word is ANTIQUITY or ANCIENT, the issue is where you put it in 3200 BC time for them and for History of Armenia you dont put it at that time.
And you are saying History of Iran to have ANTIQUITY in 3200 BC is not a valid argument? Please buddy. Explain to me how Persians exist in 3200 BC, and that you changing the word with same meaning to ANCIENT, as you put ANTIQUITY now, is not a valid argument and point Im trying to make here. Persians or History of Iran should not have ANTIQUITY at a time they dont exist, not even Proto-Persians. So tell me why you are not putting ANTIQUITY in that same ERA in the History of Armenia, and you just changed the wor ANCIENT to ANTIQUITY in the 3200 ERA of the History of Iran template. 75.51.172.205 ( talk) 05:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC) 75.51.172.205 ( talk) 05:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
I propose to change the image in the template, as the symbol shown in the picture is a pagan and does not relate to the history of Armenia.-- Δαβίδ ( talk) 16:55, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Here are some images I found in 5 minutes only on Wikimedia Commons:
I'm sorry, but if the two largest official political parties in Armenia find it include it on their official symbols, there is some significance to the Eternity Symbol beyond simply being a pagan symbol. Kentronhayastan ( talk) 17:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
The first surviving record of the name ‘Mithra’ dates back to 1400 B.C., spelled ‘Mi-it-ra’, in the inscribed 4 peace treaty between the Hittites and the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni in Asia minor.However, what these scholars fail to realize is that in the Gathas, the earliest sacred Zoroastrian texts attributed to Zoroaster himself, Mithra is not mentioned. Furthermore, Mithra also does not appear by name in the Yasna Haptanghaiti, a seven-verse section of the Yasna liturgy that is linguistically as old as the Gathas. Many scholars have noted that the lack of any mention (i.e. Zoroaster’s silence) of Mithra in these texts implies that Zoroaster in fact had rejected Mithra. This is supported by the fact that Zoroaster did not mention Mithra was because in fact in the earliest Avestan writings both Mihr-Mithra and the Armenian Matron Goddess Anahit are condemned as “daevas” or “false gods” or “daemons” that were not to be worshiped.
It was only in the fourth century BCE, when we for the first time find the mentioning of Mithras in the Iranian context as a “positive’ deity of the very radiance of the Sun in the inscriptions of the Achaemenid king Xerxes II Mnemon. The Religion of Mithras or Mithraism as it became known in the West would soon spread beyond borders of Armenia, not only towards the East, towards Iran and India, but also that of the West. Mithraic temples known as Mithraea sprang up all over the Roman Empire. They were mostly promoted by Armenian aristocrats who already by this time were prominent generals in the Roman Army. Armenian King Tiridates III is a good example, who prior to his coronation was a prominent general in the Roman Army, it was Emperor Diocletian a close friend and fellow Mithraic devotee of Tiridates who asked the Armenian king to take the challenge of personal combat from a Gothic chief, Trdat successfully stood in for the Emperor and won the tournament. By the second century AD Mithraism was virtually the state religion of the Roman Empire and virtually all of the Roman Emperors during this time and prior to adoption of Christianity in the Fourth century CE were high initiates of the Mithraic mysteries. Most of the Mithraic rites along with the rituals and rites were simply taken over by the newly forming Roman Catholic Church.
Excerpts from Pre-Christian Gods of Armenia (Glendale, 2007) by Hovik Nersisian (1921-2009). Nersisian is an author of many books and articles. He was a renowned scholar who in 1991, for his merits in Iranian Studies, most notably the study of the oldest surviving copies of the Avesta, became a full-member of New York’s Academy of Sciences. About these ads Share this:
Twitter2 Facebook56 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.35.190 ( talk) 17:27, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
add the /info/en/?search=Prehistoric_Armenia page 24.17.216.223 ( talk) 05:10, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
We should add a Middle Paleolithic section under Prehistory and add the Nor Geghi page ( /info/en/?search=Nor_Geghi) since it is actually very significant in how it challenges migrations from Africa being responsible for all technological innovations and the findings were in Armenia. We should also add an Upper Paleolithic section under Prehistory and add the link to the Trialetian culture ( /info/en/?search=Trialetian) and we should add the Trialeti culture after Kura-Araks ( /info/en/?search=Trialeti_culture) since both of these were in the Armenian highlands. MageAZ ( talk) 21:44, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Also, Kura-Araks and the legend of Hayk both fall under the Bronze Age of Armenia not "Stone & Copper Age" MageAZ ( talk) 22:47, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
There has been reverts to the addition of Mushki by an unregistered IP user to the template in the prehistoric section of the template.
The discussion should be about removing Mushki from the article.
These three points are why keeping Mushki in the template should be considered the status quo/baseline:
I argue that the unregistered IP user made a false equivalency when arguing in the edit reason that the inclusion of Mushki is equivalent to including the Luwians and Hurrians to the template.
It's a false equivalency for Luwians because there is no mention of them being Armenian ancestors in the article for Luwians, nor has there been a discussion about it, that I am aware of, on its talk page.
It's not a false equivalency, however, to include the Hurrians who are believed to have lived in the Armenian Highlands (the Urartians), and they, in fact, are in the template already.
Let's keep discussions where they belong. If you disagree that Mushki are connected to Armenian prehistory, then discuss that on the Mushki article's talk page and update the article according to what is agreed to. This template is simply a list of topics and events significant in Armenian history; the discussion here should only be about whether or not it should be included on the template, and as long as the article makes the claims it currently does, it's a significant topic. Kentronhayastan ( talk)
I updated this template to more closely resemble the manual of styles (vcard plainlist) for most other "History of" templates, while also making it more easier to read. The template had too many articles 'branching' off each other, so I deleted articles that could be considered sub-articles of others already listed. I also removed the years lengths, which were often overlaping, and the "ages" headers, which most "History of" templates do not have and just resulted in the same or similar articles being linked more than once. -- Steverci ( talk) 00:18, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
I see the previous version had over 10,000 bytes, when most of these templates have between 1,500-3,000 bytes, so it would definitely be fair to say that it was over-designed. -- Steverci ( talk) 00:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
I noticed that Mushki and Diauehi were recently removed from the template. I believe that they should be re-added. The Mushki have been connected to Armenians since ancient times (albeit, indirectly, see Khorenatsi, who seemed to suggest they were "relatives" or Armenians) and in modernity (most famously, Diakonoff, but more recently, with scholars such as Aram Kossian). Modern scholars, such as Aram Kossian, Konstantinos Kopanias, and Veli Sevin have suggested that the Mushki came from the vicinity of modern Armenia and perhaps descend from Trialeti-Vanadzor Culture, which is included in the template.
As far the Diauehi go, there is some scholarship (Sayce) suggesting that this is a patronymic name (Diaus) and connecting this to an Indo-European culture (Martirosyan, Dumikyan) (Martirosyan connects Diaus to Deus, Dios, etc). Hewson and Adontz placed the Diaeuni originally in Palu or Mush Province and suggested that they moved north--firstly to Kars Province and subsequently to Tao-Klarjeti/Tayk. Whether they were Kartvelian or indeed Indo-European, they most certainly contributed to the Armenian ethnogenesis, certainly as much, if not more, than the Mitanni (who are still included in the template) did. There's more connecting the Mushki to Armenians than there is Sumerian 'Aratta' to Armenians or even Armani. Skeptical1800 ( talk) 18:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Skeptical1800: Having a section called “Ancient history” and “Antiquity” makes no sense because one is the adjective of the other. It is equivalent to having two different sections called “Medieval history” and “Middle Ages.” I have placed everything before the appearance of Armenia proper under “prehistory” because it is the history ‘pre-Armenia’ (i.e., proto-Armenians and others). I think the problem is that there is too much crammed into prehistory, some questionable (as was discussed over the years above). — kentronhayastan 22:34, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Armenia Template‑class | |||||||
|
History Template‑class | |||||||
|
Why isn't Mitanni one of the predecessors of Armenia? -- Davo88 15:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
If the Egyptians referred to Mitanni as Nahrin/Nayiri and if these 2 are synonymous, both of them should be included. -- Davo88 21:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
They're synonymous, as in they both mean "land of rivers". Armenia is indeed a land of rivers, the source of Tigris and Euphrates, rivers that gave life to the whole area. Besides, if the Seljuks are cited as an Iranian civilization, we have all the right to put Mitanni as a civilization of Historic Armenia. -- Davo88 23:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, I found a new academic source that you said I needed. I found Hovick Nersessian which in the New York Academy of Sciences. He mentions that Mitanni is an Armenian kingdom also Ararat arev 23:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Being in the New York Academy of Sciences is no good? Thats not a good academic reference? Ararat arev 00:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Also Nahrin and Nairi both do mean "land of rivers" The Egyptians pronounced it Nahrin and the Assyrian pronounced it Nairi. These 2 peoples were Semitic, and they pronounced slightly different, but same meaning. The Armenians and Armenia you said didnt exist at that time? Armeni is mentioned as early as 2300 BC, not only that but all these other kingdoms that "participated" in our history. Like when you put Hittites. Hayasa, Haik, Armens is there in the Template. So whats the issue with Mitanni also being there? Ararat arev 00:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Im saying Haik, Armens, Hayasa, these are in the Template:History of Armenia, why cant we put in the Mitanni link also? Ararat arev 00:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Just tell me why those others are there in the Template, since you said Armenians didnt exist at that time. Ararat arev 00:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Hurrians who came back and built the kingdom of Urartu. These Hurrians were from Mitanni. Also, Hittite is way out of historic Armenia even. Ararat arev 00:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Are you forgeting Tigran the Great's Armenia's lands?
The man's time cover the entire Mitanni region, and Indo-Aryan is barely existing at that time.
So $&*#ing what? Tigranes also ruled Judea and the territory of moden Lebanon.--
Ευπάτωρ
Talk!! 00:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The Proto-IE which Sanskrit was written in, which Artak Movsisyan mentions the Mitanni names in Armenian
Ararat arev 00:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
If you also look in the Kurds page, you see that they particpated in the Mitanni. They were tribes and very close tribes with Armenian tribes. The Nairi is in their page also and Urartu even. It says these tribes were with them. So Mitanni's time Kurds tribes were there also. So our tribes like Nairi is there at that time. Mitanni participated in historic Armenians and Armenia. These tribes particpated in our ethnic history. Ararat arev 00:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Look at this:
As they settled, the Hurrians divided into a number of clans and subgroups, founding city-states, kingdoms and empires with eponymous clan names. These included the Gutis, Kurti, Khaldi, Nairi, Mushku, Mannaeans (Mannai), Mitanni, Urartu, Lullubi and the Kassites among others. All these tribes were part of the larger group of Hurrians (Khurrites), and together helped to shape the Hurrian phase of Kurdish history.[13] These groups, except the Mitanni leadership, are thought to have been non-Indo-Europeans. Ararat arev 00:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Great. Good for the Hurrians. So what?-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 00:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Speak clearly on this last part. What do you mean good for the Hurrians? You mean you agree first of all with what it says? If you do, then you see that Urartu and Nairi is in our Template right? What's missing ? Mitanni. Ararat arev 00:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
You're talking about locations here? I told you the greatest extend was in Greater Armenian during like what, 60 BC ? Which extended all those lands. Tigranes is not Armenian to you also? Another thing ethnicity has nothing to do with the locations. If you are saying Mitanni is Persians and Indians roots, where are they now? Where is their locations now? Way way down there man Ararat arev 00:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC) I have no idea how to respond to that politely. No offense but it's gibberish. You need to reconsider your involvement here.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 01:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I think I proved to you also. You dont seem to answer on the Persian and Indian issue . If their ethnic roots are from Mitanni also? Where are they now? Their "location" is not even close man to Mitanni's location. Ararat arev 01:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I want an answer Eupator. I told you Persians and Indians are way out of that area. Mitanni was in our ethnic roots. If Persians and Indians have their roots in Mitanni, look how far they are now. So you agree with me? Let's agree so we can add in Mitanni there. Ararat arev 01:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Remember a while ago you said Vahan Kurkjian was mentioning the location of Mitanni in Armenia? So you see there is our reference also. Ararat arev 01:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not going to explain to you IE migrations when you think Sanskrit is a proto-IE language... I never said that, nor is there anything stupid like that in Kurkjian's book. Understand that Mittani will never be included in this template. Any attempts by you to do so will be reverted. I will never ever again try and explain you anything. This is the end of it.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 03:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Who is this Eupator character? Don't be an ignoramus. Read facts before you resort to your own assumptions. Have you even compared Armenian hierographs with the Egyptian ones? They are similar in language and use the same words. Armenia goes back to 12000 BCE and stop searching for the exact word "Armenian". Its the same thing as finding the word "Greece" in ancient texts. You will not find it. It has variations. Pathetic fool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.35.19.135 ( talk) 07:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I think that Nairi should be added before Urartu given how that tribal confederation of sorts proceeded the Kingdom of Urartu. We should also add the Shulaveri-Shomu culture, Kura-Araxes culture given how it spread from the Ararat plain as well as the Trialeti culture. This seems to be standard practice with similar templates: Template:History of Greece includes Helladic and Cylcadic civilizations as well as Minoans, Template:History of Austria includes Hallstatt culture etc. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eupator ( talk • contribs) 20:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Kura-Araxes has no known connection to Armenia. It ended about 1,400 years before the Orontids even arrived in Armenia. Any connection is speculative. A tag of
is more appropriate for Kura-Araxes as you note since it addresses the archaeological history of Armenia. The same tag should, in my view, also apply to Hayasa-Azzi--all we know about Hayassa-Azzi is that it was a 13th and 12th century BC ancient kingdom and an enemy of the Hittites. No one knows if they are Armenian per se although they would be placed under the Armenia-related topic tag. In contrast, Urartu should be placed in pre-historic Armenia since it existed very close in time to the Orontid kingdom. Artene50 ( talk) 04:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
other nations have a whole heap of kingdoms, civilisations, empires ext.. which dont relate to the modern state or people, and yet they are still on the template because they once existed on their territory! where is the consistancy on this website! either include them for armenia, or piss off and delete these other ambigous entries in all other templates. no wonder people think wiki is a joke! good day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.26.187.44 ( talk) 12:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I understand what you are saying Eupator but AA keeps saying or implying that Hayasa-Azzi or Kura-Araxes are descendants of Armenians of which there is no proof. Even Dbachman said that to equate Armenia with Kura-Araxes culture, in its talk page, is WP:SYN. No one knows what happens to this people after their culture disappeared. A better template, since it directly links to the archaeological history of Armenia, for Kura-Araxes is the "Armenia-related topics" which Mikkalai suggests. The same case is preferable for Hayasa-Azzi since we don't know what happened to its people after the fall of the Hittites. They would be part of the archaeology of Armenia under 'Armenia-related topics.'
In contrast, Urartu definitely belongs to the pre-historic section of Armenia because 1) it was the immediate predecessor of the Orontids and 2) there is a very strong probability that some Urartians were ancestors of today's Armenians. The last Urartu king, Rusa IV lived only 15 years (d.585 BC) before the reign of Orontes I in 570 BC. I wish there were a few good scholarly books on Urartu for me to read because some sources claim that Rusa IV died in 584 or 590 BC. (very confusing!) But Rusa IV certainly was overthrown one generation before Orontes became king. Artene50 ( talk) 19:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Eupator. An idea: Why don't you place the Armenia-related topic tag at the bottom of the
Azzi-Hayasa article (see below) as Mikkalai has done for
Kura-Araxes culture? Everyone who reads Kura-Araxes will know it is related to the archaeology of Armenia. The same can then apply for Azzi-Hayasa. If an article has too many tags, the article is distracting and the Admins will remove them.
Artene50 (
talk) 02:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
[[Category:Ancient peoples]] [[Category:Archaeological cultures]] [[Category:Archaeological sites in Armenia]] [[Category:Archaeology of the Caucasus]]
This can be ignored, the template has changed since, see the next section.
I want to know what people think of the new template.
The color code:
It's organized to give an in-depth template for the full history of Armenia (geographic area and states). The states are in bold and are the main articles, some sub-sections include dynasties, minor states, vassals, key events, etc.)
Some articles that I believe deserve an article (which I may work on) are included (as in the Phrygian Theory, or the Nakhichevan deportations by Shah Abbas).
Here are two versions of the images:
Kentronhayastan ( talk) 06:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
There are problems with {{
align|right}}
for the dates. The dates are wrapping over to a new line, and then look like the correspond to the next line. there are a few ways to fix this: (1) remove the alignment, or (2) do what I did in the first section using an embedded infobox, or (3) add some nowrap around the lines, which could make the box too wide.
Frietjes (
talk) 23:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
I believe centered looks better. Plus, when a list is shown, it becomes confusing since it blends in with the periods and content. Kentronhayastan ( talk) 04:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
It appears that the user KentronHayastan removed a very important chunk of the section (Marzpanate Period --> Marzpanate Armenia) in the Antiquity. Can you please restore that part? It is the part after Commagene, we have our leader in the Christian era Vartan Mamikonian, battling against foreign rule in our land. He apparently removed this part, I dont think this user who appears is Armenian historian, is in fact ruining in a very clever way. Please look out for his changes on this matter. Thank you. 75.51.173.37 ( talk) 00:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Frost778 is suggesting we use the word Ancient instead of Antiquity, and extend its period to include (merge with) everything before it (or, age1 in the template's code). I disagree. The original template had the word "prehistory" since it covered a period before the history of Armenia per-se. He suggested we use the word "Ancient" instead of "Prehistory," which is inconsistent since Ancient and Antiquity are synonymous (see Antiquity), hence, both cannot be in the same template for different eras. I opted for "Bronze & Iron Age," since I'm assuming Frost's problem with Prehistory is because he would like to merge Armenian history with that of states that existed before Armenia (be it proto-Armenian or non-Armenian in the Armenian Highlands), consider prehistory implies "before Armenia." I figured Bronze & Iron age which is far more neutral since it doesn't give a hint on opinion on what those states represented, and fits more accurately the role of titles in the template since they represent ages. He is using the history templates of Iran and China as justification for his argument, but I don't believe that is a valid justification. Are there any other opinions? Thank you. Kentronhayastan ( talk) 05:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
First of all who is Frost? Second Im an Armenian and you appear as an imposter, even though your name in Armenian for those who dont know means Heart of Armenia.
3rd here is the real issue:
My lovely friend, you still havent gave me an answer why they have ANCIENT in 3200 BC, and why we cant, you realize these other users are slowly going to realize, if not already, what im talking about, and that you are an imposter, your name in Armenian for them that dont know means Heart of Armenia. So I suggest you either show yourself true, or you are an imposter. I told you a simple question regarding why our lovely friends of Iran Persia, can have ANCIENT in 3200 BC of there History of Iran TEMPLATE, and our History of Armenia is not allowed to in that area of time I just mentioned to you. Got it buddy?
You just changed the word to ANTIQUITY in the History of Iran part for the same 3200 BC time! You didnt do anything different there. Who are you trying to fool? Its the same meaning you put in the same era, put the same word , one of those words in the same ERA in the History of Armenia, where you have Bronze Iron Age. The issue is not if the word is ANTIQUITY or ANCIENT, the issue is where you put it in 3200 BC time for them and for History of Armenia you dont put it at that time.
And you are saying History of Iran to have ANTIQUITY in 3200 BC is not a valid argument? Please buddy. Explain to me how Persians exist in 3200 BC, and that you changing the word with same meaning to ANCIENT, as you put ANTIQUITY now, is not a valid argument and point Im trying to make here. Persians or History of Iran should not have ANTIQUITY at a time they dont exist, not even Proto-Persians. So tell me why you are not putting ANTIQUITY in that same ERA in the History of Armenia, and you just changed the wor ANCIENT to ANTIQUITY in the 3200 ERA of the History of Iran template. 75.51.172.205 ( talk) 05:26, 13 November 2012 (UTC) 75.51.172.205 ( talk) 05:23, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
I propose to change the image in the template, as the symbol shown in the picture is a pagan and does not relate to the history of Armenia.-- Δαβίδ ( talk) 16:55, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
Here are some images I found in 5 minutes only on Wikimedia Commons:
I'm sorry, but if the two largest official political parties in Armenia find it include it on their official symbols, there is some significance to the Eternity Symbol beyond simply being a pagan symbol. Kentronhayastan ( talk) 17:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
The first surviving record of the name ‘Mithra’ dates back to 1400 B.C., spelled ‘Mi-it-ra’, in the inscribed 4 peace treaty between the Hittites and the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni in Asia minor.However, what these scholars fail to realize is that in the Gathas, the earliest sacred Zoroastrian texts attributed to Zoroaster himself, Mithra is not mentioned. Furthermore, Mithra also does not appear by name in the Yasna Haptanghaiti, a seven-verse section of the Yasna liturgy that is linguistically as old as the Gathas. Many scholars have noted that the lack of any mention (i.e. Zoroaster’s silence) of Mithra in these texts implies that Zoroaster in fact had rejected Mithra. This is supported by the fact that Zoroaster did not mention Mithra was because in fact in the earliest Avestan writings both Mihr-Mithra and the Armenian Matron Goddess Anahit are condemned as “daevas” or “false gods” or “daemons” that were not to be worshiped.
It was only in the fourth century BCE, when we for the first time find the mentioning of Mithras in the Iranian context as a “positive’ deity of the very radiance of the Sun in the inscriptions of the Achaemenid king Xerxes II Mnemon. The Religion of Mithras or Mithraism as it became known in the West would soon spread beyond borders of Armenia, not only towards the East, towards Iran and India, but also that of the West. Mithraic temples known as Mithraea sprang up all over the Roman Empire. They were mostly promoted by Armenian aristocrats who already by this time were prominent generals in the Roman Army. Armenian King Tiridates III is a good example, who prior to his coronation was a prominent general in the Roman Army, it was Emperor Diocletian a close friend and fellow Mithraic devotee of Tiridates who asked the Armenian king to take the challenge of personal combat from a Gothic chief, Trdat successfully stood in for the Emperor and won the tournament. By the second century AD Mithraism was virtually the state religion of the Roman Empire and virtually all of the Roman Emperors during this time and prior to adoption of Christianity in the Fourth century CE were high initiates of the Mithraic mysteries. Most of the Mithraic rites along with the rituals and rites were simply taken over by the newly forming Roman Catholic Church.
Excerpts from Pre-Christian Gods of Armenia (Glendale, 2007) by Hovik Nersisian (1921-2009). Nersisian is an author of many books and articles. He was a renowned scholar who in 1991, for his merits in Iranian Studies, most notably the study of the oldest surviving copies of the Avesta, became a full-member of New York’s Academy of Sciences. About these ads Share this:
Twitter2 Facebook56 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.35.190 ( talk) 17:27, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
add the /info/en/?search=Prehistoric_Armenia page 24.17.216.223 ( talk) 05:10, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
We should add a Middle Paleolithic section under Prehistory and add the Nor Geghi page ( /info/en/?search=Nor_Geghi) since it is actually very significant in how it challenges migrations from Africa being responsible for all technological innovations and the findings were in Armenia. We should also add an Upper Paleolithic section under Prehistory and add the link to the Trialetian culture ( /info/en/?search=Trialetian) and we should add the Trialeti culture after Kura-Araks ( /info/en/?search=Trialeti_culture) since both of these were in the Armenian highlands. MageAZ ( talk) 21:44, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Also, Kura-Araks and the legend of Hayk both fall under the Bronze Age of Armenia not "Stone & Copper Age" MageAZ ( talk) 22:47, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
There has been reverts to the addition of Mushki by an unregistered IP user to the template in the prehistoric section of the template.
The discussion should be about removing Mushki from the article.
These three points are why keeping Mushki in the template should be considered the status quo/baseline:
I argue that the unregistered IP user made a false equivalency when arguing in the edit reason that the inclusion of Mushki is equivalent to including the Luwians and Hurrians to the template.
It's a false equivalency for Luwians because there is no mention of them being Armenian ancestors in the article for Luwians, nor has there been a discussion about it, that I am aware of, on its talk page.
It's not a false equivalency, however, to include the Hurrians who are believed to have lived in the Armenian Highlands (the Urartians), and they, in fact, are in the template already.
Let's keep discussions where they belong. If you disagree that Mushki are connected to Armenian prehistory, then discuss that on the Mushki article's talk page and update the article according to what is agreed to. This template is simply a list of topics and events significant in Armenian history; the discussion here should only be about whether or not it should be included on the template, and as long as the article makes the claims it currently does, it's a significant topic. Kentronhayastan ( talk)
I updated this template to more closely resemble the manual of styles (vcard plainlist) for most other "History of" templates, while also making it more easier to read. The template had too many articles 'branching' off each other, so I deleted articles that could be considered sub-articles of others already listed. I also removed the years lengths, which were often overlaping, and the "ages" headers, which most "History of" templates do not have and just resulted in the same or similar articles being linked more than once. -- Steverci ( talk) 00:18, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
I see the previous version had over 10,000 bytes, when most of these templates have between 1,500-3,000 bytes, so it would definitely be fair to say that it was over-designed. -- Steverci ( talk) 00:20, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
I noticed that Mushki and Diauehi were recently removed from the template. I believe that they should be re-added. The Mushki have been connected to Armenians since ancient times (albeit, indirectly, see Khorenatsi, who seemed to suggest they were "relatives" or Armenians) and in modernity (most famously, Diakonoff, but more recently, with scholars such as Aram Kossian). Modern scholars, such as Aram Kossian, Konstantinos Kopanias, and Veli Sevin have suggested that the Mushki came from the vicinity of modern Armenia and perhaps descend from Trialeti-Vanadzor Culture, which is included in the template.
As far the Diauehi go, there is some scholarship (Sayce) suggesting that this is a patronymic name (Diaus) and connecting this to an Indo-European culture (Martirosyan, Dumikyan) (Martirosyan connects Diaus to Deus, Dios, etc). Hewson and Adontz placed the Diaeuni originally in Palu or Mush Province and suggested that they moved north--firstly to Kars Province and subsequently to Tao-Klarjeti/Tayk. Whether they were Kartvelian or indeed Indo-European, they most certainly contributed to the Armenian ethnogenesis, certainly as much, if not more, than the Mitanni (who are still included in the template) did. There's more connecting the Mushki to Armenians than there is Sumerian 'Aratta' to Armenians or even Armani. Skeptical1800 ( talk) 18:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
@ Skeptical1800: Having a section called “Ancient history” and “Antiquity” makes no sense because one is the adjective of the other. It is equivalent to having two different sections called “Medieval history” and “Middle Ages.” I have placed everything before the appearance of Armenia proper under “prehistory” because it is the history ‘pre-Armenia’ (i.e., proto-Armenians and others). I think the problem is that there is too much crammed into prehistory, some questionable (as was discussed over the years above). — kentronhayastan 22:34, 10 April 2021 (UTC)