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BilledMammal, the sources you have dont quantify it, and there is no real dispute the overwhelming amount of devastation has been from Israeli strikes, not misfired rockets. But also, there are sources for Israel having killed its own civilians at Re'im and Beeri as well ( [1], [2]). So if you want to note friendly fire, note it on both sides. nableezy - 17:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Please do not replace names with abbreviations considering that these acronyms should be defined in the infobox first and foremost. Makeandtoss ( talk) 13:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Baratiiman, please explain here ASAP why you reverted my edit without any edit summary. The items were removed per WP:ONUS based on the RfC: Perm Link to consensus/closure. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 16:25, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Hello all, was just curious on how people feel about retaining two quite trivial belligerents in the 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes, namely the Amal Movement and the Islamic Group (Lebanon), in this infobox now that Lebanese Hezbollah has been removed. IMO, seems rather strange to retain the other two. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 08:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Tamjeed Ahmed: Opening this discussion for you, so you can present your arguments for why you believe the United States should be added as a belligerent. My initial impression is that they shouldn't be, as I am seeing no such characterization in reliable sources. BilledMammal ( talk) 13:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
According to news reports, the U.S. military used helicopters to thwart a Houthi rebel attack on a Maersk container ship in the Red Sea, resulting in the sinking of three rebel ships and the death of 10 militants.I don't think the scale of that is sufficient to say that the US is involved in the broader conflict.
Apart from this, according to the Council on Foreign Relations, the United States has been involved in the Israel-Hamas war since the beginning of the conflict.Can you provide a link?
The U.S. has been providing military aid to Israel and has been doing joint planning with Israel for decades to ensure it can defend itself. The U.S. has also sent warships and military aircraft into the Eastern Mediterranean to support a counteroffensive against the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip.This has previously been discussed; the US is providing support, but isn't a belligerent. BilledMammal ( talk) 14:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Parham wiki: Why was PA added to the infobox? PA is not waging war alongside Israel or Hamas. I would revert this but I'm already at 1RR. Ecrusized ( talk) 19:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Palestinian security forces dismantled planted IEDs in Jenin on December 30.Palestinian security forces are controlled by the PA. Parham wiki ( talk) 20:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
@ NadVolum: How do you know that Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor is including anyone under 18 as children? I didn't see this in their report. Ecrusized ( talk) 20:12, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
@ PrimaPrime: Why did you remove the breakdown of children and women from EMHRM estimate in your recent edit? Ecrusized ( talk) 21:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The basis for the Gaza Health Ministry figures and the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor are quite different. The health ministry figures are for registered deaths. Also children are 14 or below - 37% of the population. Men and women are about 30% of the population each and the elderly 3%.
The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor are estimated figures based on the registered deaths but include many of the missing and assessments from the damage. They count children as 18 and below - 47% of the population. They don't seem to say anything about the elderly so this means the men and women would be about 26% each of the population.
The figures aren't comparable put together without attribution to one or the other, I believe most of the figures are from the Gaza Health Ministry but note 'e' confuses things by specifying both for the number of deaths. NadVolum ( talk) 20:15, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Now I'm really confused. The Palestinian authority according to what it says in the citation counts children as 18 and below and take up 47% of the population - and have about 9000 deaths. And women would make up about 26% and had 6450 deaths. That means for every one woman killed only 0.77 children are killed - which strikes me as too low, one would expect them to die at a slightly higher rate than women. However the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor which classifies children the same estimates 11833 children and 6009 women. Its figure for women is lower than the recorded number even though it includes missing people. And that gives one woman killed for every 1.05 children which is much closer to what I'd expect! If anyone can resolve that mess I'd be very grateful! NadVolum ( talk) 00:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
@ PrimaPrime: The Palestinian territories are occupied per every single RS reporting on the war. Your repeated reversions without edit summaries are bordering edit warring. [5] Makeandtoss ( talk) 15:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
While it is true that PIJ operates outside of Gaza for example, it is also true that Israel is not fighting in Yemen, nor in Iraq. We can roughly avoid mention of these intricacies, as we have already done in relation to Israel not fighting in Yemen or Iraq, by sorting into regions. This would give the reader a rough image of the situation. Makeandtoss ( talk) 19:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
I think this should be done in Spillover of Israel-Hamas war, because this article is mainly focused on events that occured Israel and Palestine territories, and it actually starts to become too vague for belligerents. This situation seems to become like Syrian civil war before, so I think it is best to minimize the belligerent as well. Wendylove ( talk) 12:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Why are we getting so deep into the weeds for "supported by" on one side? Irtapil ( talk) 00:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Estimated 9000 Hamas killed:
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-782150 46.31.101.123 ( talk) 23:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this template? Why is this infobox not directly in the article? InfiniteNexus ( talk) 04:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
The following is an explicit estimate for the number of Hamas militants killed, coming from a Palestinian source. First such source I found. It's from a Ramallah-based Palestinian author who wrote a book about Hamas, and is a board member of a Palestinian think tank. I don't know if that's considered reliable, but if "Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor" is good enough for one of the existing references, maybe this one passes muster as well.
In an interview published in The New York Times on 2023/12/05:
"If we look at the numbers, Hamas's military is about 50,000 fighters. About 4,000 have been killed so far. That's not a significant number."
The 50K total force estimate is notably above what more well-known sources say, but with the person's background and the way he phrased the sentence quoted above, assumably the 4K estimate, if anything, won't overshoot.
213.137.71.3 ( talk) 19:14, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Note D estimates the number of Hamas militants killed based on figures from EuroMedHRM. I doubt the reliability of their numbers. On Jan 13 they retweeted someone named Maha Hussaini who claimed "Over 800,000 Palestinians who didn't evacuate Gaza City & the northern areas". That's in complete contradiction to all western media that says most people in the Gaza Strip have moved to the south. EuroMedHRM retweeting that casts doubt on the reliability of their other figures, seeing that their source verification or interpretation is lacking. 213.137.73.55 ( talk) 21:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
The following have been pointed out in the talk page about the war.. The Israeli said 1,500 militants killed a few days after they said 1,000: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. NadVolum ( talk) 22:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
US intelligence estimates the number of Hamas combatants killed as 20-30% of 25,000-30,000. That's a range of 5,000-9,000.
213.137.72.107 ( talk) 00:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
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To add to Note D:
â | + | ---- Per US intelligence: * 5,000-9,000 militants (as of 21 January 2024) |
Per US intelligence:
213.137.71.140 ( talk) 01:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
References
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Replace
with
Ayunipear ( talk) 19:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
spillover</div>
in the source.
ARandomName123 (
talk)Ping me! 19:16, 28 January 2024 (UTC)A recent by User:TheAwesomeAtom changed the Gaza casualty breakdown without providing references.
Should either add references, or revert? 213.137.66.52 ( talk) 17:22, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
This 2:1 ratio seems to be based on the study by Yagil Levy of the Open University of Israel saying 61% of the deaths were civilian. However that figure counts all men of military age as militants as documented in [11]. They say this assumption should be documented along with any use of the 61% or 68% by another group. It would certainly also explain how the IDF could say they'd killed 9000 militants. NadVolum ( talk) 15:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Our tax dollars are used to aid the resolution of the conflict. 2601:152:C82:79B0:84F1:F030:4F3B:4F0C ( talk) 08:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Why is there no graph showing the number of bombs dropped by Israel on Palestine, Syria, Lebanon? There exists graph depicting alleged Palestine-origin bombs. 2601:803:201:7B00:B06E:EC14:4477:EDFC ( talk) 22:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
This should be a topic that includes the military and civilian attacks by Israel on an isolated and wholly civilian population not affiliated with, or having access to, Gaza. 2601:803:201:7B00:B06E:EC14:4477:EDFC ( talk) 22:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
The figures for "killed" in the infobox (not the reference note) aren't of a uniform type for both sides. Gaza is a total number, Israel is split to civilian and servicemembers.
This is biased, so the format should be made uniform for both. Either turn Israel's into a total, or Gaza's into a breakdown directly in the infobox and not in a note. I think the latter makes more sense, as it's more informative and nuanced.
Since there are conflicting claims for Gaza's figures a range is needed:
Any thoughts before I open an edit request? galenIgh 11:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
::::A lot of conjecture. Various media sources qualify the Hamas-reported total with "the count doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian", so the origin doesn't claim that it's civilian only.
galenIgh 12:19, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
::A possible compromise: revert Israel back to a total, and as Alaexis suggested, promote a Gaza militant count range to the main infobox instead of just in a note, and also the Israeli servicemember count.
galenIgh 12:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
I don't think it's a good idea to start messing with the toll figures in the infobox, especially since the conflict isn't over yet. I think it should be reverted back to the Gaza health ministry toll of 30k+ seeing as it has no mention or breakdown of civilian/military deaths, it'd be jumping the gun to do our own breakdown. We should just leave the toll as it comes from the Gaza health ministry. ThePaganUK ( talk) 18:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
If not the idea to separate militants from the total, then for balance and uniformity:
In my opinion it's best to differentiate casualties by sources rather than mixing them up. Linkin Prankster ( talk) 14:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
References
When viewed in the mobile app there's a visible "</ref>" tag after Per Hamas: ~6,000...
Also, not sure if this is related, but the casualty figures Per US Intelligence, Per Hamas are visible with a desktop browser, but not in the mobile app. Uhoj ( talk) 00:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
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It's not 71,980+ palestinians wounded in Gaza but 71,920+ as you can see here : https://palinfo.com/news/2024/03/04/879522/ YoParis75 ( talk) 21:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
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Change * 30,631+ killed [1] To * 30,631+ civilians killed [2] 193.191.179.1 ( talk) 07:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
References
(Note: Calculations are not original research, see WP:OR.)
Using Israel's confirmed ratio of 2:1 (civilians to militants), (1) and their militant estimate of 13,000 militants dead, (2) the Israeli version of civilians dead is 26,000.
Using Gazan sources, with the GHM death toll at 30,878 (3), and the Hamas militant death estimate at 6,000, that leaves 24,878 civilian deaths. Also, the GHM, using bare minimum civilian deaths including women, children, elderly, doctors, UN workers, and journalists adds up to 22,971, or ~23,000. (4) (5) (6)
The US State Dept. estimates 5,000-9,000 militants dead. (7)
This leaves the death toll at 23,000-26,000 and the militant toll at between 5,000-12,000. Personisinsterest ( talk) 21:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
:But mainly, see the recent discussion about calculations above, under the
Casualties breakdown section. Some people opposed a similar idea.
galenIgh 01:46, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
:::A good catch. Some unclarity there. Politico's ratio-to-number conversion only acknowledges the low end of the range. Hamas's own numbers are lower than the high end. But the middle of the range concurs. Better wait for more reporting.
galenIgh 21:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
::::::That's incorrect even as far as Hamas' officials claim.
A recent article said more than 40% of the Gaza count is "based on accounts from 'reliable media sources', though the ministry doesn't cite or say which sources those are".
galenIgh 15:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
:::::Regarding the Per Israel civilian range, I'd wait for more reporting than just the Politico article. It's not clear enough there. Also previously, numbers coming from the army and politicians weren't exactly the same. So need more reporting to establish it better.
galenIgh 15:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
:::::::(Indeed the resultant numbers from Hamas' claims are ridiculous, and they goofed up, but that's not the topic at hand.)
galenIgh 16:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
Why aren't Israeli casualties since 8 October included in the infobox? Makeandtoss ( talk) 14:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
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In the casualties section of the infobox, Gaza side, below the first line item, directly in the infobox and not in a popup note, add:
* 6,000 - 13,000 militants killed [a]
The full details of the three sources can be left in a popup note. It's better for NPOV. As suggested above by @ Alaexis on 2/27 (2nd reply). galenIgh 21:19, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
{{
Edit extended-protected}}
template.
M.Bitton (
talk) 02:57, 24 March 2024 (UTC)please establish a consensus for this alteration", but this is currently a problem due to the way two particular editors
Notes
The small footnote reference for the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side in the infobox gives a variety of different tolls from different sources. However, the one that is shown by default without going into that footnote cites the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry.
Isn't it a violation both of neutrality and of reliable sources to cite a source from 1. a belligerent in the conflict which might have prejudice towards one angle, and 2. something with zero editorial independence which is controlled by a terrorist group (and there is no reasonable expectation that a health ministry official who has a Hamas militant with an AK next to him can possibly be guaranteed to give a neutral perspective).
For these reasons I make an edit request to remove the listed numbers. Another option if others are not satisfied with this (in that event) might be to list the numbers as "disputed" and then display the different sources underneath it. Adonnus ( talk) 17:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Does the US give the figure of 5,000 - 9,000 Hamas militants killed? As far as I know they only said 20-30% of militants killed. But 20% of what? For example, this US gov website says Hamas' strength was 20,000-25,000. So the figures should be 4,000-7,500? VR (Please ping on reply) 19:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
@ RamHez: The citation for Iran is about the 2024 Iranian strikes in Israel. This is a synthesis since the attack is not considered a part of the Israel-Hamas war by the references. Ecrusized ( talk) 13:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
â
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Gaza health ministry says 7000 missing not 8000 2001:8003:266B:4D00:81B7:B47B:8752:5B4 ( talk) 10:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
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Under belligerents of the war, there should be a "Supported by" the United States of America, with these citations: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/ AND https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/20/us-vetoes-another-un-security-council-resolution-urging-gaza-war-ceasefire#:~:text=Majority%20of%20members%20voted%20to,killed%20more%20than%2029%2C000%20people.&text=The%20United%20States%20has%20vetoed,ceasefire%20between%20Israel%20and%20Hamas., similar to the "Supported by" section on the War in Darfur page: /info/en/?search=War_in_Darfur. 74.15.65.150 ( talk) 18:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Why do the casualties for Israel list specific civilian casualties, but all the dead of Palestine are lumped in the same category? It's as if the article is implying there are no Palestinian civilians, only combatants, which is disgusting 2605:A601:AF6C:1700:A915:DB4F:28EA:266A ( talk) 21:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
As others here have already pointed out, the math regarding the breakdown of the provided Palestinian fatality figures did not quite add up. Yesterday, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs revised these figures in their most recent infographic on reliefweb.int. So as of May 8, 2024, there has been a total of 34,844 reported Palestinian fatalities in the Gaza Strip since the war started. A total of 24,686 of these have been confirmed and identified, and of this total: 10,006 are men (40%), 4,959 are women (20%), 7,797 are children (32%), and 1,924 are elderly (8%). This is a significant change from what was previously claimed and needs to be updated in the infobox on this wiki page. This also means that 52% of recorded fatalities have been women and children and not >70% so any mentions of the >70% figure in this article should be deemed no longer factual. I would assume then that women and children make up ~52% of the wounded as well but we cannot be sure. These revised figures are more in line with Israeli estimates as far as I can tell (1 âcombatantâ for every 1.5 âcivilianâ). As of May 2024, Israel says it has killed 15,000 Hamas members in battle (per The Times of Israel). Based on a precedent in previous conflicts, Israel does not distinguish between male civilians and combatants when they release total fatality estimates of their enemy. If about 10,000 of the recorded Palestinian deaths have been adult males and if 40% of the 10,158 bodies yet to be properly identified are adult males, this would give a total of more than 14,000 Palestinian adult male deaths in the war so far. Now obviously, not all Palestinian men who have died are members of Hamas but the figure is very close to what Israel claims and we would assume it would be because they do not distinguish between male civilians and combatants in the numbers they release like I said. Nathan1223 ( talk) 20:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Ecrusized: "When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict" per Template:Infobox military conflict. As a middle ground solution you can add the PIJ and PFLP outside the collapsible list since they are along with Hamas the three most prominent groups. Makeandtoss ( talk) 12:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
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Ocha has updated the number of reported casualties. As of May 8th 2024 the numbers are: Total Palestinians: 34,844 of which 24,686, as of April 30th, are identified as: Men: 10,006 (40%) Women: 4,959 (20%) Children: 7,797 (32%) Elderly: 1,924 (8%)
Source: [1] 213.164.196.30 ( talk) 12:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Not done. Discussion ongoing at main article. Selfstudier ( talk) 12:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
References
There's currently a citation error Cite error: The named reference Template:IsraelâHamas war infobox:shinbet If somebody could fix that it would be good. Thanks. NadVolum ( talk) 14:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
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14,000 militants. Refs:
galenIgh 23:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
1 egyptian soldier is killed so hope to update the template in other theaters. 172.97.229.55 ( talk) 17:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. Parts of this page relate to the ArabâIsraeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
BilledMammal, the sources you have dont quantify it, and there is no real dispute the overwhelming amount of devastation has been from Israeli strikes, not misfired rockets. But also, there are sources for Israel having killed its own civilians at Re'im and Beeri as well ( [1], [2]). So if you want to note friendly fire, note it on both sides. nableezy - 17:32, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Please do not replace names with abbreviations considering that these acronyms should be defined in the infobox first and foremost. Makeandtoss ( talk) 13:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Baratiiman, please explain here ASAP why you reverted my edit without any edit summary. The items were removed per WP:ONUS based on the RfC: Perm Link to consensus/closure. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 16:25, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Hello all, was just curious on how people feel about retaining two quite trivial belligerents in the 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes, namely the Amal Movement and the Islamic Group (Lebanon), in this infobox now that Lebanese Hezbollah has been removed. IMO, seems rather strange to retain the other two. SaintPaulOfTarsus ( talk) 08:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Tamjeed Ahmed: Opening this discussion for you, so you can present your arguments for why you believe the United States should be added as a belligerent. My initial impression is that they shouldn't be, as I am seeing no such characterization in reliable sources. BilledMammal ( talk) 13:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
According to news reports, the U.S. military used helicopters to thwart a Houthi rebel attack on a Maersk container ship in the Red Sea, resulting in the sinking of three rebel ships and the death of 10 militants.I don't think the scale of that is sufficient to say that the US is involved in the broader conflict.
Apart from this, according to the Council on Foreign Relations, the United States has been involved in the Israel-Hamas war since the beginning of the conflict.Can you provide a link?
The U.S. has been providing military aid to Israel and has been doing joint planning with Israel for decades to ensure it can defend itself. The U.S. has also sent warships and military aircraft into the Eastern Mediterranean to support a counteroffensive against the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip.This has previously been discussed; the US is providing support, but isn't a belligerent. BilledMammal ( talk) 14:05, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
@ Parham wiki: Why was PA added to the infobox? PA is not waging war alongside Israel or Hamas. I would revert this but I'm already at 1RR. Ecrusized ( talk) 19:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Palestinian security forces dismantled planted IEDs in Jenin on December 30.Palestinian security forces are controlled by the PA. Parham wiki ( talk) 20:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
@ NadVolum: How do you know that Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor is including anyone under 18 as children? I didn't see this in their report. Ecrusized ( talk) 20:12, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
@ PrimaPrime: Why did you remove the breakdown of children and women from EMHRM estimate in your recent edit? Ecrusized ( talk) 21:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
The basis for the Gaza Health Ministry figures and the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor are quite different. The health ministry figures are for registered deaths. Also children are 14 or below - 37% of the population. Men and women are about 30% of the population each and the elderly 3%.
The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor are estimated figures based on the registered deaths but include many of the missing and assessments from the damage. They count children as 18 and below - 47% of the population. They don't seem to say anything about the elderly so this means the men and women would be about 26% each of the population.
The figures aren't comparable put together without attribution to one or the other, I believe most of the figures are from the Gaza Health Ministry but note 'e' confuses things by specifying both for the number of deaths. NadVolum ( talk) 20:15, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Now I'm really confused. The Palestinian authority according to what it says in the citation counts children as 18 and below and take up 47% of the population - and have about 9000 deaths. And women would make up about 26% and had 6450 deaths. That means for every one woman killed only 0.77 children are killed - which strikes me as too low, one would expect them to die at a slightly higher rate than women. However the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor which classifies children the same estimates 11833 children and 6009 women. Its figure for women is lower than the recorded number even though it includes missing people. And that gives one woman killed for every 1.05 children which is much closer to what I'd expect! If anyone can resolve that mess I'd be very grateful! NadVolum ( talk) 00:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
@ PrimaPrime: The Palestinian territories are occupied per every single RS reporting on the war. Your repeated reversions without edit summaries are bordering edit warring. [5] Makeandtoss ( talk) 15:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
While it is true that PIJ operates outside of Gaza for example, it is also true that Israel is not fighting in Yemen, nor in Iraq. We can roughly avoid mention of these intricacies, as we have already done in relation to Israel not fighting in Yemen or Iraq, by sorting into regions. This would give the reader a rough image of the situation. Makeandtoss ( talk) 19:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
I think this should be done in Spillover of Israel-Hamas war, because this article is mainly focused on events that occured Israel and Palestine territories, and it actually starts to become too vague for belligerents. This situation seems to become like Syrian civil war before, so I think it is best to minimize the belligerent as well. Wendylove ( talk) 12:17, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Why are we getting so deep into the weeds for "supported by" on one side? Irtapil ( talk) 00:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Estimated 9000 Hamas killed:
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-782150 46.31.101.123 ( talk) 23:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
What is the purpose of this template? Why is this infobox not directly in the article? InfiniteNexus ( talk) 04:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
The following is an explicit estimate for the number of Hamas militants killed, coming from a Palestinian source. First such source I found. It's from a Ramallah-based Palestinian author who wrote a book about Hamas, and is a board member of a Palestinian think tank. I don't know if that's considered reliable, but if "Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor" is good enough for one of the existing references, maybe this one passes muster as well.
In an interview published in The New York Times on 2023/12/05:
"If we look at the numbers, Hamas's military is about 50,000 fighters. About 4,000 have been killed so far. That's not a significant number."
The 50K total force estimate is notably above what more well-known sources say, but with the person's background and the way he phrased the sentence quoted above, assumably the 4K estimate, if anything, won't overshoot.
213.137.71.3 ( talk) 19:14, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Note D estimates the number of Hamas militants killed based on figures from EuroMedHRM. I doubt the reliability of their numbers. On Jan 13 they retweeted someone named Maha Hussaini who claimed "Over 800,000 Palestinians who didn't evacuate Gaza City & the northern areas". That's in complete contradiction to all western media that says most people in the Gaza Strip have moved to the south. EuroMedHRM retweeting that casts doubt on the reliability of their other figures, seeing that their source verification or interpretation is lacking. 213.137.73.55 ( talk) 21:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
The following have been pointed out in the talk page about the war.. The Israeli said 1,500 militants killed a few days after they said 1,000: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. NadVolum ( talk) 22:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
US intelligence estimates the number of Hamas combatants killed as 20-30% of 25,000-30,000. That's a range of 5,000-9,000.
213.137.72.107 ( talk) 00:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
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To add to Note D:
â | + | ---- Per US intelligence: * 5,000-9,000 militants (as of 21 January 2024) |
Per US intelligence:
213.137.71.140 ( talk) 01:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
References
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Replace
with
Ayunipear ( talk) 19:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
spillover</div>
in the source.
ARandomName123 (
talk)Ping me! 19:16, 28 January 2024 (UTC)A recent by User:TheAwesomeAtom changed the Gaza casualty breakdown without providing references.
Should either add references, or revert? 213.137.66.52 ( talk) 17:22, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
This 2:1 ratio seems to be based on the study by Yagil Levy of the Open University of Israel saying 61% of the deaths were civilian. However that figure counts all men of military age as militants as documented in [11]. They say this assumption should be documented along with any use of the 61% or 68% by another group. It would certainly also explain how the IDF could say they'd killed 9000 militants. NadVolum ( talk) 15:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Our tax dollars are used to aid the resolution of the conflict. 2601:152:C82:79B0:84F1:F030:4F3B:4F0C ( talk) 08:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Why is there no graph showing the number of bombs dropped by Israel on Palestine, Syria, Lebanon? There exists graph depicting alleged Palestine-origin bombs. 2601:803:201:7B00:B06E:EC14:4477:EDFC ( talk) 22:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
This should be a topic that includes the military and civilian attacks by Israel on an isolated and wholly civilian population not affiliated with, or having access to, Gaza. 2601:803:201:7B00:B06E:EC14:4477:EDFC ( talk) 22:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
The figures for "killed" in the infobox (not the reference note) aren't of a uniform type for both sides. Gaza is a total number, Israel is split to civilian and servicemembers.
This is biased, so the format should be made uniform for both. Either turn Israel's into a total, or Gaza's into a breakdown directly in the infobox and not in a note. I think the latter makes more sense, as it's more informative and nuanced.
Since there are conflicting claims for Gaza's figures a range is needed:
Any thoughts before I open an edit request? galenIgh 11:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
::::A lot of conjecture. Various media sources qualify the Hamas-reported total with "the count doesn't distinguish between militant and civilian", so the origin doesn't claim that it's civilian only.
galenIgh 12:19, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
::A possible compromise: revert Israel back to a total, and as Alaexis suggested, promote a Gaza militant count range to the main infobox instead of just in a note, and also the Israeli servicemember count.
galenIgh 12:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
I don't think it's a good idea to start messing with the toll figures in the infobox, especially since the conflict isn't over yet. I think it should be reverted back to the Gaza health ministry toll of 30k+ seeing as it has no mention or breakdown of civilian/military deaths, it'd be jumping the gun to do our own breakdown. We should just leave the toll as it comes from the Gaza health ministry. ThePaganUK ( talk) 18:19, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
If not the idea to separate militants from the total, then for balance and uniformity:
In my opinion it's best to differentiate casualties by sources rather than mixing them up. Linkin Prankster ( talk) 14:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
References
When viewed in the mobile app there's a visible "</ref>" tag after Per Hamas: ~6,000...
Also, not sure if this is related, but the casualty figures Per US Intelligence, Per Hamas are visible with a desktop browser, but not in the mobile app. Uhoj ( talk) 00:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
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It's not 71,980+ palestinians wounded in Gaza but 71,920+ as you can see here : https://palinfo.com/news/2024/03/04/879522/ YoParis75 ( talk) 21:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
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Change * 30,631+ killed [1] To * 30,631+ civilians killed [2] 193.191.179.1 ( talk) 07:45, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
References
(Note: Calculations are not original research, see WP:OR.)
Using Israel's confirmed ratio of 2:1 (civilians to militants), (1) and their militant estimate of 13,000 militants dead, (2) the Israeli version of civilians dead is 26,000.
Using Gazan sources, with the GHM death toll at 30,878 (3), and the Hamas militant death estimate at 6,000, that leaves 24,878 civilian deaths. Also, the GHM, using bare minimum civilian deaths including women, children, elderly, doctors, UN workers, and journalists adds up to 22,971, or ~23,000. (4) (5) (6)
The US State Dept. estimates 5,000-9,000 militants dead. (7)
This leaves the death toll at 23,000-26,000 and the militant toll at between 5,000-12,000. Personisinsterest ( talk) 21:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
:But mainly, see the recent discussion about calculations above, under the
Casualties breakdown section. Some people opposed a similar idea.
galenIgh 01:46, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
:::A good catch. Some unclarity there. Politico's ratio-to-number conversion only acknowledges the low end of the range. Hamas's own numbers are lower than the high end. But the middle of the range concurs. Better wait for more reporting.
galenIgh 21:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
::::::That's incorrect even as far as Hamas' officials claim.
A recent article said more than 40% of the Gaza count is "based on accounts from 'reliable media sources', though the ministry doesn't cite or say which sources those are".
galenIgh 15:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
:::::Regarding the Per Israel civilian range, I'd wait for more reporting than just the Politico article. It's not clear enough there. Also previously, numbers coming from the army and politicians weren't exactly the same. So need more reporting to establish it better.
galenIgh 15:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
:::::::(Indeed the resultant numbers from Hamas' claims are ridiculous, and they goofed up, but that's not the topic at hand.)
galenIgh 16:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
WP:ARBECR
Why aren't Israeli casualties since 8 October included in the infobox? Makeandtoss ( talk) 14:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
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In the casualties section of the infobox, Gaza side, below the first line item, directly in the infobox and not in a popup note, add:
* 6,000 - 13,000 militants killed [a]
The full details of the three sources can be left in a popup note. It's better for NPOV. As suggested above by @ Alaexis on 2/27 (2nd reply). galenIgh 21:19, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
{{
Edit extended-protected}}
template.
M.Bitton (
talk) 02:57, 24 March 2024 (UTC)please establish a consensus for this alteration", but this is currently a problem due to the way two particular editors
Notes
The small footnote reference for the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side in the infobox gives a variety of different tolls from different sources. However, the one that is shown by default without going into that footnote cites the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry.
Isn't it a violation both of neutrality and of reliable sources to cite a source from 1. a belligerent in the conflict which might have prejudice towards one angle, and 2. something with zero editorial independence which is controlled by a terrorist group (and there is no reasonable expectation that a health ministry official who has a Hamas militant with an AK next to him can possibly be guaranteed to give a neutral perspective).
For these reasons I make an edit request to remove the listed numbers. Another option if others are not satisfied with this (in that event) might be to list the numbers as "disputed" and then display the different sources underneath it. Adonnus ( talk) 17:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Does the US give the figure of 5,000 - 9,000 Hamas militants killed? As far as I know they only said 20-30% of militants killed. But 20% of what? For example, this US gov website says Hamas' strength was 20,000-25,000. So the figures should be 4,000-7,500? VR (Please ping on reply) 19:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
@ RamHez: The citation for Iran is about the 2024 Iranian strikes in Israel. This is a synthesis since the attack is not considered a part of the Israel-Hamas war by the references. Ecrusized ( talk) 13:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
â
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Gaza health ministry says 7000 missing not 8000 2001:8003:266B:4D00:81B7:B47B:8752:5B4 ( talk) 10:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
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Under belligerents of the war, there should be a "Supported by" the United States of America, with these citations: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/ AND https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/20/us-vetoes-another-un-security-council-resolution-urging-gaza-war-ceasefire#:~:text=Majority%20of%20members%20voted%20to,killed%20more%20than%2029%2C000%20people.&text=The%20United%20States%20has%20vetoed,ceasefire%20between%20Israel%20and%20Hamas., similar to the "Supported by" section on the War in Darfur page: /info/en/?search=War_in_Darfur. 74.15.65.150 ( talk) 18:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Why do the casualties for Israel list specific civilian casualties, but all the dead of Palestine are lumped in the same category? It's as if the article is implying there are no Palestinian civilians, only combatants, which is disgusting 2605:A601:AF6C:1700:A915:DB4F:28EA:266A ( talk) 21:24, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
As others here have already pointed out, the math regarding the breakdown of the provided Palestinian fatality figures did not quite add up. Yesterday, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs revised these figures in their most recent infographic on reliefweb.int. So as of May 8, 2024, there has been a total of 34,844 reported Palestinian fatalities in the Gaza Strip since the war started. A total of 24,686 of these have been confirmed and identified, and of this total: 10,006 are men (40%), 4,959 are women (20%), 7,797 are children (32%), and 1,924 are elderly (8%). This is a significant change from what was previously claimed and needs to be updated in the infobox on this wiki page. This also means that 52% of recorded fatalities have been women and children and not >70% so any mentions of the >70% figure in this article should be deemed no longer factual. I would assume then that women and children make up ~52% of the wounded as well but we cannot be sure. These revised figures are more in line with Israeli estimates as far as I can tell (1 âcombatantâ for every 1.5 âcivilianâ). As of May 2024, Israel says it has killed 15,000 Hamas members in battle (per The Times of Israel). Based on a precedent in previous conflicts, Israel does not distinguish between male civilians and combatants when they release total fatality estimates of their enemy. If about 10,000 of the recorded Palestinian deaths have been adult males and if 40% of the 10,158 bodies yet to be properly identified are adult males, this would give a total of more than 14,000 Palestinian adult male deaths in the war so far. Now obviously, not all Palestinian men who have died are members of Hamas but the figure is very close to what Israel claims and we would assume it would be because they do not distinguish between male civilians and combatants in the numbers they release like I said. Nathan1223 ( talk) 20:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
@ Ecrusized: "When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict" per Template:Infobox military conflict. As a middle ground solution you can add the PIJ and PFLP outside the collapsible list since they are along with Hamas the three most prominent groups. Makeandtoss ( talk) 12:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
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Ocha has updated the number of reported casualties. As of May 8th 2024 the numbers are: Total Palestinians: 34,844 of which 24,686, as of April 30th, are identified as: Men: 10,006 (40%) Women: 4,959 (20%) Children: 7,797 (32%) Elderly: 1,924 (8%)
Source: [1] 213.164.196.30 ( talk) 12:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Not done. Discussion ongoing at main article. Selfstudier ( talk) 12:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
References
There's currently a citation error Cite error: The named reference Template:IsraelâHamas war infobox:shinbet If somebody could fix that it would be good. Thanks. NadVolum ( talk) 14:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
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14,000 militants. Refs:
galenIgh 23:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
1 egyptian soldier is killed so hope to update the template in other theaters. 172.97.229.55 ( talk) 17:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)