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I added the distinction that a male witch is known as a warlock. Lostcaesar 20:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Worlock means oath breaker it is not means as a copliment. sltaylor12/18/2006
I told you it would start some trouble. I'm just going to take out the warlock reference all together. Maybe you all can sort this out here on the talk page. Here is the situation so far...
Warlock is defined as a male witch, but wiccans see a warlock as a witch or wiccan who has broken some kind of rule. Konman72 12:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought Warlock came from a Scandinavian word that meant "spirit caller." I mean, it's even in an article on this site. Perhaps we should lend it some credence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimuEva ( talk • contribs)
In the intro section "warlock" had somehow been relegated to sci-fi and pop-fiction applications alone; I've restored it to its wider context. (It appears in historical demonology, such as that of the witch-trials) Fuzzypeg ☻ 04:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
In Wicca the word warlock is used as 'oath breaker' due to the Old English wǣrloga, oath-breaker : wǣr, pledge. The word Wicca means witch essentially from the Old English translation (and it turned into witch throught the middle English usage of wicche). Wicca utilizes the usage of old English to seperate it from modern day usages. Cause lets face it wicca is a religion that is only 50 years old and wants to be a million years old (I'm wiccan, and I'm not afraid to say it). So male witches are called witches, or Wicca or Wicce (Wicca denoating male, and Wicce female), but these terms are not used frequently and are not accepted by the majority of Wiccans. Daddakamabb ☻ 00:03, 10 February 2007
Yes, "warlock" apparently can mean "oath breaker" and various other kinds of evildoers. (The TV series Charmed [obviously not a definitive/authoritative source, since it is fiction, but Charmed did use a lot of actual folklore to enhance the show! ^_^] used "warlock" to mean "evil witch" regardless of gender.) I would say that by far the most common meaning (or use) of the word is simply "male witch" (regardless of good or evil leanings/associations). However, since the word can mean (at least) two completely different things, both definitions probably should be INCLUDED in the article...or perhaps all we really need as a disclaimer is just "See this article's talk page for further info on other possible definitions of the word 'warlock'" (after stating that male witches are SOMETIMES called warlocks, or that they CAN be called either wizards or warlocks). Does that seem like a suitable/adequate compromise?
(Note: What the people these days who practice Wiccan witchcraft [Wicca, the Craft, etc.] do or do not call THEMSELVES is, I think, actually not necessary as a main point of THIS article [although it certainly could be included in an article specifically on the topic of the modern-day cult known as Wicca (which is, of course, at least in theory derived from older things...but I agree that in its present form it is basically a modern invention!)]. Male witches certainly ARE sometimes CALLED [by writers, by people with interest in the topic, etc.!] both "wizards" and "warlocks". That doesn't have to be what THEY call THEMSELVES, which is actually a separate topic [no, not irrelevant, just separate!] [as many writers quote Kipling ..."that is another story" ^_^].)
(Hey, I have a great idea...why not include the "lengthy discussion of the term" in a Wikipedia or Wiktionary entry titled "Warlock"? And then people can just click on "warlock" and go look it up, and see Definition One AND Definition Two! [Wow. That's such a simple solution, I can't believe it took me over an hour to finally think of it. I am so slow-witted sometimes...^_~])
Well, "that's all I got to say on the subject" (to quote the character Tammy Tyree, in at least one of the Tammy movies! ^_^).
Kitty =^___^=
KittySilvermoon 23:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I always thought warlocks as offspring of a practicioner of witchcraft.-- Bloodsource 18:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
In the french wikipedia, sorcellerie (witchcraft) and sorcière (witch) are separate articles. Why not here? juppiter talk #c 15:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth are the witches from Macbeth and from one of Roald Dahls books listed in this section? Surely that would be "Famous Witches in Fiction" rather than in "History"? As a side note, I've corrected (for now) the internal link to Roald Rahl to Roald Dahl, pending the removal of the items or the moving of them into a section "Famous Witches in Fiction", as per the results of this discussion Crimsone 16:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
The terms witchcraft and witch are controversial, with a complicated histories. Witchcraft is viewed differently in different cultures around the globe. Used with entirely different contexts, and within entirely different cultural references, it can take on distinct and often contradictory meanings.
How helpful is this? It sounds so very vague to me. Is it necessary? How much information does this contribute? Why is the term witchcraft anymore "contraversial", or the history of "witch" anymore complex than any other term? I am not saything that the statement is false, but I think the paragraph ought to attempt to provide some brief answer to these questions if it is to really be informative. Lostcaesar 04:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've almost completely rewritten the etymology paragraph based on scholarly sources. The previous version was frought with absurdity and unexplained idle speculation. Specifically,
No they aren't. This is a well-attested word throughout the history of English literary canon all the way back to the earliest available Old English sources. Pre-literary history is of course heavily conjectural, but this is necessarily so, and so hardly notable.
Uh, vandalism? Seems to have stuck around for quite a while, too.
Yes, like I said, total and complete absence of evidence (regarding Proto-Germanic vocabulary) tends to do this. The fact that there is essentially no extant Proto-Germanic canon is not, however, any more notable or confounding here than it is for any other given Old English etymology.
How? And according to who? I have never in my life encountered this form of contraction in Old English historical linguistics. /tej/->/tʃ/ in a medial syllable is as far as I know completely unattested as a Germanic sound change.
Okay, I'll take this at face value and presume it's true.
Again, wiglian,wigle,wiglung, etc. being cognate with wiccian, wicce, wicca, etc., stretches the imagination and the possibilities available within the domain of Germanic and even Indo-European sound change so much that we might as well just presume every word beginning with w in the entire Proto-Germanic vocabulary is cognate to wicca/wicce at that point. It's idle speculation.
Now this actually makes perfect sense, as an exception here.
One supposes it's conceivable, but no etymological source I have consulted mentions this, and given its profound philological remoteness (an extinct East Germanic form of different meaning) from Old English wicce/wicca, it comes off as just more idle speculation.
Victim did not enter the English language until the Early Modern era, and it entered via Latinate origins. How exactly does this relate to a Germanic word from a thousand years earlier?
Wicked may have been derived from wicce/wicca during the Middle English period. But even if this is so, it certainly doesn't say anything about the origin of Old English wicce/wicca itself.
One supposes they can assert whatever they want. Spurious etymologies can be socially significant, I guess.
I've reverted two recent additions to the Spell Casting section. One was about spells requiring three components, one of which was "a material component, such as bits of naughty, 'wild,' obscure, or arcane substances"! This is not a belief I've come across in the Wiccan or wider occult community. Vocals, gesticulations and objects may be helpful sometimes, but you can cast spells without any of them. The other section was about focus on the Goddess. I would suggest that this is not actually about spell-casting, and as it is specific to certain forms of Neopagan witchcraft it belongs in that section. It also strikes me as somewhat misleading because it says that the Goddess is more important than magic, however in Wicca at least our relationship with the Goddess is so closely tied to magic that the two are nearly inextricable. Fuzzypeg ☻ 04:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I'm new here and certainly don't know what I'm doing. I added the second paragraph down on the witchcraft page and haven't the faintest clue how to put word links in there or anything if someone wants to clean up the post...or tell me whether or not it's even appropriate? Dissonantia [ps - Re: the Malleus Maleficarum page, if one hasn't already been worked on, I'm willing to give it a shot! Will explore this site more on Friday, but this is my first time here, and I think it's a wonderful concept!!]
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Agne 22:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I take exception that the site spellwerx.com is listed in the external links because it promotes "spells for payment", and most pagans frown on this practice. I've added two sites actually run by witches that may add a bit of balance to this page. magialuna 01:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The etymology as given in the article is spurious, according to academic consensus. A better etymology can be found at Wicca#Etymology. Also, this is not an article about Wicca, nor should it present witchcraft as if all witches were Wiccans. I'm not sure I have the time to fix these things myself... Fuzzypeg ☻ 01:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
the article in español has a section on the inquisition and the counter-reformation. i don't see anything like this in the main witchcraft article or the european witchcraft article in english and think it's a good section to add.
I would like to open a discussion about two statements made in the Overview section of the Witchcraft article.
The statement: “Nevertheless, Witchcraft can broadly be distinguished from religion in that it involves a belief that nature, or even the gods, can be influenced by the human spirit, whereas religion involves acceptance of human powerlessness before the divine.” [2nd statement, 1st paragraph]
Specifically regarding the Wikipedia statement, have you considered the nature of prayer? Is not prayer an attempt by a human to influence either the divine or nature? Additionally, both invocation and evocation are considered rituals to influence, command, and/or communicate with either a divine or semi-divine being. Please also see definitions at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invocation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evocation. So, considering these practices, is the claim that Witchcraft is not a religion because it seeks to influence entirely accurate?
As well, I am a witch - and I feel that Witchcraft/Wicca is a religion. Witchcraft is a religion because we worship - at the very least - a Goddess. I’ve never met a witch that claims otherwise. And, having perused many books and websites, witches publicly claim the same thing in those same books and at those same websites. Other religions claim that we worship as well [for example, many Christians claim that we worship the Devil - even though we don’t make that claim]. And, there are now a number of countries that officially recognize Wicca [Witchcraft] as a religion. So, again, I need to express my discomfort with “Witchcraft can broadly be distinguished from religion …”
The second statement that I’m uncomfortable with is: “Each culture has its own particular body of concepts dealing with magic, religion, benevolent and harmful spirits, and ritual; and these ideas do not find obvious equivalents in other cultures.” [1st statement, 1st paragraph]
I more or less disagree with the latter part of that statement because I’ve found that most religions [both modern & ancient] do have obvious equivalents such as, 1) The ritual of prayer is common to all religions - is it not? 2) Benevolent and harmful spirits are found in all religions - are they not? [such as, djinn, angels, trickster figures, elves, oriental dragons, avatars, etc] 3) Magic is common to religion - though witches specifically call it magic [or magick] - many religions tend to term magic as miracles, incantation, amulets, etc.
I agree that each culture has specifics that differ. What I don’t feel is that the broad concepts differ. AshleyWitchcrafter 17:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This article, in parts, clearly takes the point of view that witchcraft exists. For example,
Some Neopagans study and practice forms of magery
and
Many neopagan witches subscribe to a model of three parts of the self
Of course, if you define a witch as
someone who claims to practise magic (or is accused of practising it), whether or not they do
then the problem goes away. But this is not the common definition. A witch is someone who practises witchcraft, surely.
MrArt 06:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Whether witches (in the 'actually practising witchcraft' sense) have existed in the past is a POV, of course. I agree with you. But this is Wikipedia, after all, so you must quote a reliable source that states they did (whether now, or in history).
As for your second point, if you say "witchcraft is the craft of witches", then you must say what is special about witches that makes them, well, witches. This is the crux of my argument. Choose either:
(a) a witch is someone who claims to be a witch
or
(b) a witch is someone who actually casts spells etc., and these spells have a definite supernatural effect
I argue that people of type (a) definitely exist, but there is no evidence that anyone of type (b) exists.
MrArt 13:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
A lawyer can lose every case s/he tries, and still be a lawyer. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
MrArt, does saying that "Christians worship Jesus" imply that what they believe is true? Just labeling someone, whether "Christian" or "witch", and stating something that they do as part of that identification, does not imply truth on any objective level. rom a rin talk ] 22:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. The Miracle article doesn't assert that miracles exist (quite properly, in my opinion). As it stands, this article uses definition (b). I prefer that definition for the following reason:
If someone accuses you of being a witch (which in some parts of the world, can cause you serious difficulties), they mean you actually cast spells, etc.
They are NOT accusing you of 'claiming to be a witch'.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/witch has both definitions, but (a) seems more common.
MrArt 07:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This conversation seems to be hinging on the idea that "real" witches can turn people into frogs. This is a fairly rediculous notion, as there is no historical basis for this supposition, beyond fairy tales and such. Just because a fairy tale implies this definition of a witch, does that mean that it is the denfinition to end all definitions? Of course not. If someone identifies as a witch, for whatever reason, they are a witch. Thus, witches exist. Their definition of what it means to be a witch may be different from yours, but you could say the same thing about a lot of different identifications. You could also go around telling people that they are not what they say they are, because their definition for what they are does not match yours. But is that really worth it?
The article opens with "Witchcraft, in various historical, religious and mythical contexts, is the use of certain kinds of alleged supernatural or magical powers. A witch is a person who practises witchcraft..." How is this troubling? It says "alleged", for one thing, which implies that not everyone would agree with the existance of such powers. Then, it goes on to state that a witch is someone who practices these "alleged" powers. I imagine that one could assume this definition throughout the article, thus every time it says "witches do ..." it is implying that "those who allegedly have supernatural powers do ..." I suppose we could get into it over what the definition of "supernatural or magical powers" is, but beyond that, I don't really see your problem. rom a rin talk ] 14:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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help) The "neighbourhood witch" or "social witch" she designates as type A, identified with social or neighbourhood conflicts, the source of conflict being the breaking of a norm of coexistence (for example, denying having borrowed money). In this case the claimed maleficium is, according to the logic of the narratives, the result of a curse by the accused witch. Type B witches, the "magical" or "sorceror" witches, are people who, according to the narratives, are expert in magic or sorcery or acts that lend themselves to such an interpretation. They may be healers, sorcerors, seers or midwives, or everyday people who practiced household magic and increased their fortunes through magic, to the detriment of a neighbouring household. Ambiguity between magic and healing is the common instigating factor in accusations of maleficium here, and it is often expressed in the own-alien opposition, i.e., the opposition between households, communities, magicians, healers (that are good), and alien households, communities, etc. (that are bad), the healer-midwife rivalry, and in the witch's dual function as both malefactor and healer. Type C witches, the "supernatural" or "night" witches are characterised as demons of night visions and dreams. These testimonies are related as personal experiences of the conflict between the human and supernatural worlds, where witches as supernatural creatures attack their victims.In response to MrArt, the first poster in this thread/topic: Well, obviously what we have here is yet another definition difficulty/conflict (see the "warlock" thread/topic at the top of this talk page! ^_~). A "witch" certainly CAN be (AND, for purposes of Wikipedia's "Witchcraft" article probably SHOULD be! it would go with the existing tone of the article!) defined as a person who practices (fictional, mythological, folklorical, etc.) magic, AND as a person who claims/believes that he she practices (actual) magic... AND as a person who is NOT necessarily EITHER of those but IS a member of a cult/group/etc. identifying itself as part of/a branch of Wicca, the Old Religion, etc. ("Witch" originally meant "to know", or came from a word meaning that, or so some claim...certainly "wit" can mean "know", and so can "wist" [as in Shakespeare, the Bible, etc.!]. "Witches" can also be people with knowledge of herbs/healing/etc. [some say that the Old Testament's "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" refers really to "poisoner" (a person who knows how to use, and does use, poisonous herbs/drugs to kill, rather than good herbs to heal, and so would be considered an "evil witch" according to the "knowing about herbs" definition of "witch")].) Not all people who call themselves "witches" believe that they have actual magical powers...apparently, some people do make those sorts of claims and others do not.
Bottom line: There certainly are real people who are really called "witches"...and in some cases, not only do others call them that, but they themselves call themselves that. (Whether or not they have any "powers" is, apparently, very much a matter of opinion, open for debate, etc.! ^_~)
(Oh, and, to Sugaar: Yes, I agree, witch maketh craft... not [usually ^_~] the other way around! ^_~) (Clothes maketh man, or man maketh clothes? ^_~ Hmmm. Two different meanings... again...as seems to keep occurring around here lately! ^_~)
(And, to MrArt again: No, calling yourself a witch, and therefore being one, is not at ALL the same as calling yourself a doctor and therefore being one. There ARE numerous people today who call themselves "witches". That actually IS often considered one way of being a "witch"...not the fairy tale kind, but still, it is one kind of "witch", whether you are aware of that or not. [There is not, to my knowledge, a large cult of unlicensed and unverified medical practioners who go around pretending to be "doctors". There ARE, however, numerous people who hold doctorates in fields completely other than medicine. If a person is, say, a doctor of law, or of chemistry, or of music, he or she IS indeed a doctor...just not a doctor of medicine. ^_~ (Same word. Different meaning. And in THAT way perhaps it IS comparable to the "witch" topic under current discussion! ^_~)])
Are witches real? Yes, they are, if the term "witches" can (and, yes, it can! ^_^) be inclusive enough to include any and all who call themselves witches, who claim to practice any form of witchcraft, etc. (I DON'T think that it should include those ACCUSED of being "witches" who definitely do NOT call themselves that...for instance, those who were accused in the Salem witch trials...but otherwise...the term CAN INCLUDE practically anything/anyone with any connections to any variety of anything described as "witchcraft".)
Courteously,
Your friendly neighborhood Wikipedian witch-cat =^__^=
Kitty =^___^=
KittySilvermoon 00:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
(Update: I forgot to add that no one needs to "prove" [in Wikipedia's "Witchcraft" article] that the "actually magical" type of witch exists...providing, of course, that no one has asserted that it exists...one needs only to state clearly that the magical/folklorical/mythological/etc. DEFINITIONS exist, AND that the popular modern Wiccan, pagan, etc. definitions exist ALSO and are intended, in most cases anyway, to refer to a DIFFERENT KIND of "witch"! [And, yes, I agree with those who think that the definitions can get complicated. In fact, at least one poster in this very discussion appears to have, at least in part, misunderstood some of the definitions/distinctions! ^_~] [There ARE INDEED several different meanings of the word "witch". THAT never NEEDED to be up for debate. If someone does not AGREE that there SHOULD be more than one definition, THAT is his/her business...but in fact there IS, and has been for many years, more than one definition...like it or not, that is not only a fact, but common knowledge among those with experience in research of the particular topic/subject!])
Kitty =^__^=
KittySilvermoon 00:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I've just (badly) reverted a section. can anyone help get it back to the way it was? Probably needs linking. Totnesmartin 00:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(table of molluscs deleted)
in the popular culture section, there is only a short description of the general popular perception of witches. is there any information on how witches came to be known as old women with pointy hats, green skin and warts who stir cauldrons? do any of these things have historical roots? i think answers to these would help the article. Bigdan201 08:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
((right off, I state that I have only the vaguest idea of how talkpages work. Excuse me if I screw it up, please.)) Also in Pop Culture, the description of Elphaba is flawed. The Wicked Witch of the West in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was not named Elphaba. She was, in fact, unnamed, though there are several other named witches in Oz. The name Elphaba was created by Gregory Maguire for his revisionist novel Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West.
And, now that I look at it, the Macbeth reference might be faulty as well. As far as I recall, they are referred to only as "Weird Sisters" in the play, and not as witches - though that is generally what they are presumed to be. This, however, goes back to the arguement of what makes a witch... 64.211.50.218 17:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Tiktokism
I propose editing the popular culture section to seperate it into more categories such as television, movies, and books so that they can each be elaborated on. If there arent any objections i would like to start on it soon. Grey witch 05:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the recent photo addition. This article is about witchcraft all over the world, and starting it off with a photo depicting a completely Western stereotype is a bad—and ethnocentric—representation. Furthermore, using a picture that represents a stereotype in itself, and a specifically negative one at that, goes against any educational values that this article may have. This photo represents something that has very little to do with witchcraft as it is viewed and practiced on a global scale, and it belongs on the Broadway article more than it does here. I would like to remove it, but wanted first to see what others think. Thanks, romarin talk ] 05:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
In Old English, wicca and wicce may not have blah sense now lost to modern scholars What in the world is "may not have blah sense" supposed to mean? I'd correct the article, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to say in the first place; I'm pretty sure "blah sense" isn't right, though.
I've heard Irish folklore says witches can turn in to a cat 8 times before being unable to change back. Can somebody confirm? Include it? Trekphiler 11:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It might be not relevant for THIS article...but this article's talk page might be a good place to mention that I'd really love to see (and maybe even help write, if I ever get enough time! ^_~)an article specifically on the folklore of cats (including their mythological [magical ^_^] connections to witches, goddesses, etc.). Would Trekphiler and/or other users here be interested in contributing to such an article? (Whoever wants to, or gets to it first, or whatever, feel free to start writing one...and then we can discuss it further on THAT article's talk page, if we want to! ^_^)
(Btw, I think that I might've heard that same scrap of folklore before too, a long time ago [it would fit well with cats having nine lives and all that sort of thing, certainly!]. I can't confirm or deny it either, though. [The (old, probably out-of-print) book Nine Lives: The Folklore of Cats, by Katharine Briggs, is an especially good source of cat lore. ^_^ You may be able to find it in libraries. Good luck, good hunting, etc.! ^_^])
Kitty =^__^=
KittySilvermoon 22:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
OK. Can I have a citation of real (rather than claimed or alleged) practitioners of witchcraft, as defined in this article, including paranormal magic. Otherwise I'm removing references within the article, because they don't exist. - MrArt 00:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
MrArt placed a {{fact}} tag in the intro with the following edit summary: "I'm shortly going to remove this statement unless someone cites the existence of 'modern practitioners' of actual witchcraft". The tagged statement was about modern practitioners' views of witchcraft as being morally positive. I removed the tag because I believe I can answer his complaint.
Now firstly, the article doesn't claim that these powers are necessarily real, or if it does, it shouldn't. So when discussing modern practitioners, they are people who believe or claim that they are using magical or supernatural powers. There are plenty such people. Secondly, the word "witch" is widely used in a variety of contexts to describe such people. It is used in historical/anthropological contexts to describe, for instance, the individuals in early Modern Europe who believed they left their bodies in a trance, attended fantastical feasts, fought evil spirits, communed with the dead and cursed or healed their neighbours; also for non-european sorcerors in places like Africa. It is also used very widely amongst self-professed practitioners of witchcraft, such as Wiccans, neopagan witches and others who claim older origins.
These are very common uses of the term, and Wikipedia should reflect common usage. If you believe that "witch" only refers to people with actual provable magical powers then you are imposing your own ideosynchratic restrictions on its meaning. Fuzzypeg ☻ 00:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Keep in mind the belief and the practice of witchcraft still exists in many parts of the world (outside of Europe,North America, Australia & New Zeland). (Now whether they have actually paranormal powers is another issue and topic.)
Bill (Feb 7, 2007)
A good site seems to be www.witchcraftspellsnow.com. Would it be ok to add that to the links? The webmaster is a Priestess and explains the beliefs of Wicca. Probably the most amazing thing on this website, which I have seen linked on other Witchcraft sites is her famous Top 50 Witchcraft Myths page. I figured it would be a good link to add because of that one page alone. The article really doesnt go into common myths about witchcraft all that much which is a big topic for those new to witchcraft. The page with the top 50 witchcraft myths is http://www.witchcraftspellsnow.com/top50witchcraftmyths.htm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.109.65 ( talk • contribs)
"Since Gardner's death in 1964 the "Wicca" cult that Gardner claims he was initiated into has attracted many initiates, becoming the largest of the various "witchcraft" traditions in the Western world. Members of the cult have steadily been claiming to to be real "witches" for the past forty years, a notion further disseminated by such fictional television dramas as Charmed. However in truth a Wiccan is about as genuine a "witch" by initiation into the cult as a Grand Wizard is a "wizard" by initiation into the K.K.K. "
This section of the article uses blatently defaming words and comparisons, and should have no place in this particular article. While I do believe that Wicca should definitely be presented in this article, as it does play a huge role in the modern understanding of present-day witchcraft, it should be done briefly, fairly, and with a more unbiased and less slanderous tone than what is presented. I do not yet know what could be done to improve the paragraph/area, and that is why I am bringing it up here, so that hopefully we can peacefully come to a consensus as to how to correct it. :-)
(I apologize in advance if I do/have done something inappropriately, or do not/have not follow(ed) convention. I am quite new at this (having only just created an account upon encountering this particular piece.)
LilyRain 18:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose http://www.blue-moon-manor.com/ which presents witchcraft from a traditional point of view, rather than Wiccan. I am the webmaster and a Traditional Witch.
Traditional Witchcraft, or Trad Witchcraft, is a family of witchcraft traditions of the British Isles that date back into time. This website describes one Trad's witchcraft spirituality. The website includes a Glossary of Witchcraft Terms.
Adrianius 03:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Fuzzypeg, I read your well-presented comments with keen interest, appreciation, and a dose of Pepto-Bismol. Your comments revealed two over-sights I had not considered.
1) Of course, my own Trad rituals are NOT on the website. The rituals I published were created by me for the general public to be as pagan-generic as possible. Big mistake. I should have been aware that some would think they were my rituals. I need to rectify this a.s.a.p.
2) Of course, we never observed Mabon or even some of the other festivals recognized by Wicca, as listed in the Festivals section of Blue Moon Manor website. Again, I was too accommodating to the general reader and should have thought about consistency with my personal Trad. This was also a blunder and will be rectified a.s.a.p. Also, I was unaware the name, Mabon, is bogus.
3) Perhaps the primary point that I submit is that Gerald Gardner's Wiccan creation of 1951 (or 1954 if you prefer) was certainly itself a study of "inaccurate or unverifiable material." However, I realize that an Alexandrian "High Priest" would not necessarily agree to such a hypothesis, even with empirical evidence such as may be evident.
Nevertheless, as far as I am concerned, I believe that between your Alexandrian perspective and my London Trad perspective, it is only a matter of some different points-of-view between two confederates.
I would have thought the topic of witchcraft would be open to a wide spectrum of Traditional Witchcraft points-of-view, rather than the pressing of a Wiccan orthodox interpretation as a censorship standard. This does seem to be the situation. This is most disappointing. For you see, Fuzzypeg (and I do say that name with sincere respect), what is your accurate opinion I can find to be "factually inaccurate."
I am sure we could both apply the principles of argumentation theory and absolutely prove ourselves to be unquestionably correct, at least in our own minds, respectively.
5) However, I do fully accept that websites accepted on Wikipedia should not be commercial. So, by the merit of that one argument, I do concur with you, and accept my fate of being silenced. Gee, I feel so persecuted.
One last thing, I appreciate your time in replying. With my regards,
Adrianius 20:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the info in Witch is either repeated (and better written) here or at Witch-hunt; there's a significant amount that's either original research or just plain wrong; and there is one brief statement that we might want to save, although exactly where we should incorporate it, I don't know:
One leaf we could take from the Witch article is that it has a section on witches in floklore and mythology; it is very poorly written and not worth copying, but at least it has this section, something that is conspicuously lacking here. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The section on Europe could be made shorter to aid legibility. I suspect that most of what is said here is already in the articles on "Witchcraft in Europe" or "Witch-hunt". DanielDemaret 09:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have added to the Etymology section a cut-and-paste of the entire section from the article on Wicca. This is in pursuit of a general shortening and tidying of that article, and also because the etymologies are so much intertwined that it seems silly to have a detailed discussion in two separate places. I realise this makes this section very long (and possibly repetitive.) Perhaps there needs to be an entirely separate article on the etymology of witch/withcraft/Wicca? I will happily migrate this text to such a page, if people think this is the right idea. Please do not just do a straight revert of this: I do realise it leads to an untidy and over-long section, but I believe this material belongs together. I will put this page on watch, and happily join a discussion here or on my talk page. Many thanks! Kim dent brown 19:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Russian witchcraft got created then immediately flagged for deletion. I removed that flag and proposed a merge into Witchcraft. Your thoughts? Davidwr 14:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Is witchcraft Related to satanism? I hear that a lot. I Do Know God Condemns black magic But condones White. user:Bloodsource
This has been the justification for removing a few sections of the article recently. I agree with some of the deletions; in particular there was an addition under the Spellcasting heading that seemed only intended to insert a spam link as a reference. However this argument is only valid so far. Neopagan witchcraft may be "historically anachronistic" in the sense that it doesn't strongly mirror older practices or conceptions of witchcraft, however the descriptions of neopagan witchcraft are in fact pretty faithful descriptions, and they should remain in the article. I'd be happy if they were more segregated into their own section, rather than popping up in lots of little places around the article, and in fact that would happen according to my vision for the article.
I would like to see this article track the historical development of the concept, drawing on the work of Eva Pocs, Carlo Ginzburg, E. William Monter and so on. It would start with proto-witchcraft (ancient witchcraft in all but name) and move forward through the witch-trials and the development of the diabolical Sabbath stereotype, cunning-craft and the various horsemen's, millers' and masons' guilds, 19th and early 20th century literary additions such as Charles Leland and Margaret Murray, application of the term to non-European cultures by anthropologists, and finally neopagan witchcraft.
Anyway, deletion of large sections of text should generally be accompanied by a fairly comprehensive explanation of why, and some discussion is generally appreciated before major changes to an article. Thanks, Fuzzypeg ☻ 22:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
>Fuzzypeg: Sorry I didn't include any type of explanation for my edits, which were I have to admit performed in haste at close to 1 a.m. my time. The entry looked rude, but wasn't intended to be. "Historically anachronistic" was the shortest phrase I could think of to squeeze into the explanation box. And tidying up (rather than "spinning" the subject matter) was all I was after.
I agree with you about a fresh approach incorporating Ginzburg's work. Also included should be mention of Eliade's "Occultism, Witchcraft and Cultural Fashion" (which has more material about the Benandanti, Romanian parallels, and "Irodiada"/"Herodiada"). And yes, surely the guilds you refer to should be dealt with as well. However, the subject is so large not to mention complex, it really deserves a scholarly new book, not just an article. Not sure what Ginzburg is up to these days; unfortunately Culianu could have tackled it, but alas he is no longer with us.
P.S. as Vidkun observes, somehow I have lost my KitMarlowe soubriquet. I can't imagine how that happened. Pahuson 23:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC
Someone has suggested including the separate article "Russian Witchcraft" in the "Witchcraft" article. I see no reason not to do this, and nobody else seems to have raised an objection. So I shall attempt to do this. If anyone finds this objectionable, he or she is welcome to revert the material to its original status. Pahuson 05:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I shall also add some reference material.
This is the first time i've posted here so i got a question. Would it be such a good idea to post spells and potions. You know the people here researching this stuff may want to know some spells and potions and things like that. User:Bloodsource
I don't know about that. Maybe i can make a link to my favorite site for spells and all that. But i'm afraid i might get in trouble so i'll leave it up to someone else. The site name is: WWW.SpellsandMagic.com.
Spells, white magic, ceremonial magic, incantations, candle magic,
black magic, conjuration's, and invocations. It's all here to help you through life. If you believe in the power of Magic your dreams can come true. So be it! We all have needs in life and Magic can help fulfill those needs. Whether it be power, money, fame, revenge, love or hate... the universe can be bent to our will and it can all be achieved with
spells and magic.
Witches and accused witches were persecuted for hundreds of years, until, in 1951, the law in England was rewritten because of a Wiccan High Priest named Gerald B. Gardner. While employed as a civil servant, he decided to declare his religious preference – Witchcraft. He demonstrated a ritual to the Parliament and explained the nature of his worship so they would realise that his religion was not about demons, destruction and sacrifice.
If you click on the black magic part it wont show any ritual but it show a cat with a gun and warns of black magic thankfully it does that. but i guess your right about that. but what if i posted some on my user page?
This statement had a {{dubious}} tag attached, with the edit comment reading "mmmm, debatable... the feminist revisionist historians who like to look at witchcraft persecutions as sexism make this claim, but it doesn't hold up in witchcraft trial records". Actually this is not a feminist revisionism; it is fact, well evidenced, and agreed on by all the witch-trial historians I've read: Keith Thomas, Norman Cohn, Eva Pocs, Carlo Ginzburg, Ronald Hutton, E William Monter, Alan Macfarlane, etc, etc. In a few places such as Iceland men were the more common victims, but in most countries women were by far the majority.
I find myself smarting a little at the phrase "the feminist revisionist historians". As if feminist history = revisionist history, or perhaps feminism = load of rubbish. This is probably not what you intended, but it's a good idea to be careful with your phrasing, and evaluate evidence based on its merits, rather than what light it shows women in. There are many conservative academic historians who have produced highly flawed and polemical history, and there are many feminist historians who have written balanced, scholarly and authoritative history. It's not about what club you belong to or what banner you go under, but how well researched you are, and how well your work follows the evidence. Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I recently removed what I considered to be an "essay": view diff here, and I believe I may not have explained my reasons clearly enough in the edit comment.
I noted this was largely about Wicca and thus more appropriate to that sub-section, or indeed the Wicca article, since the Witchcraft article is about witchcraft historically and anthropologically, as well as the many modern varieties in different cultures. Wicca is only one modern variety. The "cited colour association" I said was atypical referred to the associations given to the colour white: supposedly most associated with the Moon, but also associated with the elements of air and fire. Now first off, witchcraft worldwide and throughout history has a huge number of associations with the colour white, and in traditional European witchcraft I would venture to suggest that white is most commonly associated with the witches' Goddess, death, and perhaps winter. Certainly air and fire seem quite atypical. That Lexies and Gards are less likely to call themselves "White" might possibly be true, but even with my knowledge of these communities I couldn't be sure of this. This looks like original research, and is a classic case of an assertion that needs to be supported by cited evidence. "Green Witches" may be a term that has some usage in the United States; it's certainly uncommon here. But I would suggest that the description you've given of the people you then term Green Witches, "focus their energies on natural healing through ancient herbal remedies and the channeling healing energy", actually applies to just about all people who call themselves "witches", and few of these would claim to be any particular colour. I'm not saying any of this is wrong; it just seems to be overly specialised for this section of the article, and atypical within the greater scope of world witchcraft practices. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've just removed the following section from the article:
My problems with this text are as follows:
Thanks. Fuzzypeg ☻ 01:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I just did a big removal of info, replacing it with a brief summary of trends. I probably went overboard I'm sorry, but I think we need to adopt a new approach for this section:
Thanks, Fuzzypeg ☻ 01:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi I’m a baby witch looking for an older wiser witch to teach me I have powers but don’t know how much about spells and the way we do things I’ve been researching a lot and my spirit guides told me to reach out
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I added the distinction that a male witch is known as a warlock. Lostcaesar 20:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Worlock means oath breaker it is not means as a copliment. sltaylor12/18/2006
I told you it would start some trouble. I'm just going to take out the warlock reference all together. Maybe you all can sort this out here on the talk page. Here is the situation so far...
Warlock is defined as a male witch, but wiccans see a warlock as a witch or wiccan who has broken some kind of rule. Konman72 12:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought Warlock came from a Scandinavian word that meant "spirit caller." I mean, it's even in an article on this site. Perhaps we should lend it some credence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimuEva ( talk • contribs)
In the intro section "warlock" had somehow been relegated to sci-fi and pop-fiction applications alone; I've restored it to its wider context. (It appears in historical demonology, such as that of the witch-trials) Fuzzypeg ☻ 04:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
In Wicca the word warlock is used as 'oath breaker' due to the Old English wǣrloga, oath-breaker : wǣr, pledge. The word Wicca means witch essentially from the Old English translation (and it turned into witch throught the middle English usage of wicche). Wicca utilizes the usage of old English to seperate it from modern day usages. Cause lets face it wicca is a religion that is only 50 years old and wants to be a million years old (I'm wiccan, and I'm not afraid to say it). So male witches are called witches, or Wicca or Wicce (Wicca denoating male, and Wicce female), but these terms are not used frequently and are not accepted by the majority of Wiccans. Daddakamabb ☻ 00:03, 10 February 2007
Yes, "warlock" apparently can mean "oath breaker" and various other kinds of evildoers. (The TV series Charmed [obviously not a definitive/authoritative source, since it is fiction, but Charmed did use a lot of actual folklore to enhance the show! ^_^] used "warlock" to mean "evil witch" regardless of gender.) I would say that by far the most common meaning (or use) of the word is simply "male witch" (regardless of good or evil leanings/associations). However, since the word can mean (at least) two completely different things, both definitions probably should be INCLUDED in the article...or perhaps all we really need as a disclaimer is just "See this article's talk page for further info on other possible definitions of the word 'warlock'" (after stating that male witches are SOMETIMES called warlocks, or that they CAN be called either wizards or warlocks). Does that seem like a suitable/adequate compromise?
(Note: What the people these days who practice Wiccan witchcraft [Wicca, the Craft, etc.] do or do not call THEMSELVES is, I think, actually not necessary as a main point of THIS article [although it certainly could be included in an article specifically on the topic of the modern-day cult known as Wicca (which is, of course, at least in theory derived from older things...but I agree that in its present form it is basically a modern invention!)]. Male witches certainly ARE sometimes CALLED [by writers, by people with interest in the topic, etc.!] both "wizards" and "warlocks". That doesn't have to be what THEY call THEMSELVES, which is actually a separate topic [no, not irrelevant, just separate!] [as many writers quote Kipling ..."that is another story" ^_^].)
(Hey, I have a great idea...why not include the "lengthy discussion of the term" in a Wikipedia or Wiktionary entry titled "Warlock"? And then people can just click on "warlock" and go look it up, and see Definition One AND Definition Two! [Wow. That's such a simple solution, I can't believe it took me over an hour to finally think of it. I am so slow-witted sometimes...^_~])
Well, "that's all I got to say on the subject" (to quote the character Tammy Tyree, in at least one of the Tammy movies! ^_^).
Kitty =^___^=
KittySilvermoon 23:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I always thought warlocks as offspring of a practicioner of witchcraft.-- Bloodsource 18:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
In the french wikipedia, sorcellerie (witchcraft) and sorcière (witch) are separate articles. Why not here? juppiter talk #c 15:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth are the witches from Macbeth and from one of Roald Dahls books listed in this section? Surely that would be "Famous Witches in Fiction" rather than in "History"? As a side note, I've corrected (for now) the internal link to Roald Rahl to Roald Dahl, pending the removal of the items or the moving of them into a section "Famous Witches in Fiction", as per the results of this discussion Crimsone 16:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
The terms witchcraft and witch are controversial, with a complicated histories. Witchcraft is viewed differently in different cultures around the globe. Used with entirely different contexts, and within entirely different cultural references, it can take on distinct and often contradictory meanings.
How helpful is this? It sounds so very vague to me. Is it necessary? How much information does this contribute? Why is the term witchcraft anymore "contraversial", or the history of "witch" anymore complex than any other term? I am not saything that the statement is false, but I think the paragraph ought to attempt to provide some brief answer to these questions if it is to really be informative. Lostcaesar 04:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've almost completely rewritten the etymology paragraph based on scholarly sources. The previous version was frought with absurdity and unexplained idle speculation. Specifically,
No they aren't. This is a well-attested word throughout the history of English literary canon all the way back to the earliest available Old English sources. Pre-literary history is of course heavily conjectural, but this is necessarily so, and so hardly notable.
Uh, vandalism? Seems to have stuck around for quite a while, too.
Yes, like I said, total and complete absence of evidence (regarding Proto-Germanic vocabulary) tends to do this. The fact that there is essentially no extant Proto-Germanic canon is not, however, any more notable or confounding here than it is for any other given Old English etymology.
How? And according to who? I have never in my life encountered this form of contraction in Old English historical linguistics. /tej/->/tʃ/ in a medial syllable is as far as I know completely unattested as a Germanic sound change.
Okay, I'll take this at face value and presume it's true.
Again, wiglian,wigle,wiglung, etc. being cognate with wiccian, wicce, wicca, etc., stretches the imagination and the possibilities available within the domain of Germanic and even Indo-European sound change so much that we might as well just presume every word beginning with w in the entire Proto-Germanic vocabulary is cognate to wicca/wicce at that point. It's idle speculation.
Now this actually makes perfect sense, as an exception here.
One supposes it's conceivable, but no etymological source I have consulted mentions this, and given its profound philological remoteness (an extinct East Germanic form of different meaning) from Old English wicce/wicca, it comes off as just more idle speculation.
Victim did not enter the English language until the Early Modern era, and it entered via Latinate origins. How exactly does this relate to a Germanic word from a thousand years earlier?
Wicked may have been derived from wicce/wicca during the Middle English period. But even if this is so, it certainly doesn't say anything about the origin of Old English wicce/wicca itself.
One supposes they can assert whatever they want. Spurious etymologies can be socially significant, I guess.
I've reverted two recent additions to the Spell Casting section. One was about spells requiring three components, one of which was "a material component, such as bits of naughty, 'wild,' obscure, or arcane substances"! This is not a belief I've come across in the Wiccan or wider occult community. Vocals, gesticulations and objects may be helpful sometimes, but you can cast spells without any of them. The other section was about focus on the Goddess. I would suggest that this is not actually about spell-casting, and as it is specific to certain forms of Neopagan witchcraft it belongs in that section. It also strikes me as somewhat misleading because it says that the Goddess is more important than magic, however in Wicca at least our relationship with the Goddess is so closely tied to magic that the two are nearly inextricable. Fuzzypeg ☻ 04:46, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I'm new here and certainly don't know what I'm doing. I added the second paragraph down on the witchcraft page and haven't the faintest clue how to put word links in there or anything if someone wants to clean up the post...or tell me whether or not it's even appropriate? Dissonantia [ps - Re: the Malleus Maleficarum page, if one hasn't already been worked on, I'm willing to give it a shot! Will explore this site more on Friday, but this is my first time here, and I think it's a wonderful concept!!]
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I take exception that the site spellwerx.com is listed in the external links because it promotes "spells for payment", and most pagans frown on this practice. I've added two sites actually run by witches that may add a bit of balance to this page. magialuna 01:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The etymology as given in the article is spurious, according to academic consensus. A better etymology can be found at Wicca#Etymology. Also, this is not an article about Wicca, nor should it present witchcraft as if all witches were Wiccans. I'm not sure I have the time to fix these things myself... Fuzzypeg ☻ 01:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
the article in español has a section on the inquisition and the counter-reformation. i don't see anything like this in the main witchcraft article or the european witchcraft article in english and think it's a good section to add.
I would like to open a discussion about two statements made in the Overview section of the Witchcraft article.
The statement: “Nevertheless, Witchcraft can broadly be distinguished from religion in that it involves a belief that nature, or even the gods, can be influenced by the human spirit, whereas religion involves acceptance of human powerlessness before the divine.” [2nd statement, 1st paragraph]
Specifically regarding the Wikipedia statement, have you considered the nature of prayer? Is not prayer an attempt by a human to influence either the divine or nature? Additionally, both invocation and evocation are considered rituals to influence, command, and/or communicate with either a divine or semi-divine being. Please also see definitions at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invocation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evocation. So, considering these practices, is the claim that Witchcraft is not a religion because it seeks to influence entirely accurate?
As well, I am a witch - and I feel that Witchcraft/Wicca is a religion. Witchcraft is a religion because we worship - at the very least - a Goddess. I’ve never met a witch that claims otherwise. And, having perused many books and websites, witches publicly claim the same thing in those same books and at those same websites. Other religions claim that we worship as well [for example, many Christians claim that we worship the Devil - even though we don’t make that claim]. And, there are now a number of countries that officially recognize Wicca [Witchcraft] as a religion. So, again, I need to express my discomfort with “Witchcraft can broadly be distinguished from religion …”
The second statement that I’m uncomfortable with is: “Each culture has its own particular body of concepts dealing with magic, religion, benevolent and harmful spirits, and ritual; and these ideas do not find obvious equivalents in other cultures.” [1st statement, 1st paragraph]
I more or less disagree with the latter part of that statement because I’ve found that most religions [both modern & ancient] do have obvious equivalents such as, 1) The ritual of prayer is common to all religions - is it not? 2) Benevolent and harmful spirits are found in all religions - are they not? [such as, djinn, angels, trickster figures, elves, oriental dragons, avatars, etc] 3) Magic is common to religion - though witches specifically call it magic [or magick] - many religions tend to term magic as miracles, incantation, amulets, etc.
I agree that each culture has specifics that differ. What I don’t feel is that the broad concepts differ. AshleyWitchcrafter 17:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This article, in parts, clearly takes the point of view that witchcraft exists. For example,
Some Neopagans study and practice forms of magery
and
Many neopagan witches subscribe to a model of three parts of the self
Of course, if you define a witch as
someone who claims to practise magic (or is accused of practising it), whether or not they do
then the problem goes away. But this is not the common definition. A witch is someone who practises witchcraft, surely.
MrArt 06:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Whether witches (in the 'actually practising witchcraft' sense) have existed in the past is a POV, of course. I agree with you. But this is Wikipedia, after all, so you must quote a reliable source that states they did (whether now, or in history).
As for your second point, if you say "witchcraft is the craft of witches", then you must say what is special about witches that makes them, well, witches. This is the crux of my argument. Choose either:
(a) a witch is someone who claims to be a witch
or
(b) a witch is someone who actually casts spells etc., and these spells have a definite supernatural effect
I argue that people of type (a) definitely exist, but there is no evidence that anyone of type (b) exists.
MrArt 13:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
A lawyer can lose every case s/he tries, and still be a lawyer. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
MrArt, does saying that "Christians worship Jesus" imply that what they believe is true? Just labeling someone, whether "Christian" or "witch", and stating something that they do as part of that identification, does not imply truth on any objective level. rom a rin talk ] 22:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. The Miracle article doesn't assert that miracles exist (quite properly, in my opinion). As it stands, this article uses definition (b). I prefer that definition for the following reason:
If someone accuses you of being a witch (which in some parts of the world, can cause you serious difficulties), they mean you actually cast spells, etc.
They are NOT accusing you of 'claiming to be a witch'.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/witch has both definitions, but (a) seems more common.
MrArt 07:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
This conversation seems to be hinging on the idea that "real" witches can turn people into frogs. This is a fairly rediculous notion, as there is no historical basis for this supposition, beyond fairy tales and such. Just because a fairy tale implies this definition of a witch, does that mean that it is the denfinition to end all definitions? Of course not. If someone identifies as a witch, for whatever reason, they are a witch. Thus, witches exist. Their definition of what it means to be a witch may be different from yours, but you could say the same thing about a lot of different identifications. You could also go around telling people that they are not what they say they are, because their definition for what they are does not match yours. But is that really worth it?
The article opens with "Witchcraft, in various historical, religious and mythical contexts, is the use of certain kinds of alleged supernatural or magical powers. A witch is a person who practises witchcraft..." How is this troubling? It says "alleged", for one thing, which implies that not everyone would agree with the existance of such powers. Then, it goes on to state that a witch is someone who practices these "alleged" powers. I imagine that one could assume this definition throughout the article, thus every time it says "witches do ..." it is implying that "those who allegedly have supernatural powers do ..." I suppose we could get into it over what the definition of "supernatural or magical powers" is, but beyond that, I don't really see your problem. rom a rin talk ] 14:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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help) The "neighbourhood witch" or "social witch" she designates as type A, identified with social or neighbourhood conflicts, the source of conflict being the breaking of a norm of coexistence (for example, denying having borrowed money). In this case the claimed maleficium is, according to the logic of the narratives, the result of a curse by the accused witch. Type B witches, the "magical" or "sorceror" witches, are people who, according to the narratives, are expert in magic or sorcery or acts that lend themselves to such an interpretation. They may be healers, sorcerors, seers or midwives, or everyday people who practiced household magic and increased their fortunes through magic, to the detriment of a neighbouring household. Ambiguity between magic and healing is the common instigating factor in accusations of maleficium here, and it is often expressed in the own-alien opposition, i.e., the opposition between households, communities, magicians, healers (that are good), and alien households, communities, etc. (that are bad), the healer-midwife rivalry, and in the witch's dual function as both malefactor and healer. Type C witches, the "supernatural" or "night" witches are characterised as demons of night visions and dreams. These testimonies are related as personal experiences of the conflict between the human and supernatural worlds, where witches as supernatural creatures attack their victims.In response to MrArt, the first poster in this thread/topic: Well, obviously what we have here is yet another definition difficulty/conflict (see the "warlock" thread/topic at the top of this talk page! ^_~). A "witch" certainly CAN be (AND, for purposes of Wikipedia's "Witchcraft" article probably SHOULD be! it would go with the existing tone of the article!) defined as a person who practices (fictional, mythological, folklorical, etc.) magic, AND as a person who claims/believes that he she practices (actual) magic... AND as a person who is NOT necessarily EITHER of those but IS a member of a cult/group/etc. identifying itself as part of/a branch of Wicca, the Old Religion, etc. ("Witch" originally meant "to know", or came from a word meaning that, or so some claim...certainly "wit" can mean "know", and so can "wist" [as in Shakespeare, the Bible, etc.!]. "Witches" can also be people with knowledge of herbs/healing/etc. [some say that the Old Testament's "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" refers really to "poisoner" (a person who knows how to use, and does use, poisonous herbs/drugs to kill, rather than good herbs to heal, and so would be considered an "evil witch" according to the "knowing about herbs" definition of "witch")].) Not all people who call themselves "witches" believe that they have actual magical powers...apparently, some people do make those sorts of claims and others do not.
Bottom line: There certainly are real people who are really called "witches"...and in some cases, not only do others call them that, but they themselves call themselves that. (Whether or not they have any "powers" is, apparently, very much a matter of opinion, open for debate, etc.! ^_~)
(Oh, and, to Sugaar: Yes, I agree, witch maketh craft... not [usually ^_~] the other way around! ^_~) (Clothes maketh man, or man maketh clothes? ^_~ Hmmm. Two different meanings... again...as seems to keep occurring around here lately! ^_~)
(And, to MrArt again: No, calling yourself a witch, and therefore being one, is not at ALL the same as calling yourself a doctor and therefore being one. There ARE numerous people today who call themselves "witches". That actually IS often considered one way of being a "witch"...not the fairy tale kind, but still, it is one kind of "witch", whether you are aware of that or not. [There is not, to my knowledge, a large cult of unlicensed and unverified medical practioners who go around pretending to be "doctors". There ARE, however, numerous people who hold doctorates in fields completely other than medicine. If a person is, say, a doctor of law, or of chemistry, or of music, he or she IS indeed a doctor...just not a doctor of medicine. ^_~ (Same word. Different meaning. And in THAT way perhaps it IS comparable to the "witch" topic under current discussion! ^_~)])
Are witches real? Yes, they are, if the term "witches" can (and, yes, it can! ^_^) be inclusive enough to include any and all who call themselves witches, who claim to practice any form of witchcraft, etc. (I DON'T think that it should include those ACCUSED of being "witches" who definitely do NOT call themselves that...for instance, those who were accused in the Salem witch trials...but otherwise...the term CAN INCLUDE practically anything/anyone with any connections to any variety of anything described as "witchcraft".)
Courteously,
Your friendly neighborhood Wikipedian witch-cat =^__^=
Kitty =^___^=
KittySilvermoon 00:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
(Update: I forgot to add that no one needs to "prove" [in Wikipedia's "Witchcraft" article] that the "actually magical" type of witch exists...providing, of course, that no one has asserted that it exists...one needs only to state clearly that the magical/folklorical/mythological/etc. DEFINITIONS exist, AND that the popular modern Wiccan, pagan, etc. definitions exist ALSO and are intended, in most cases anyway, to refer to a DIFFERENT KIND of "witch"! [And, yes, I agree with those who think that the definitions can get complicated. In fact, at least one poster in this very discussion appears to have, at least in part, misunderstood some of the definitions/distinctions! ^_~] [There ARE INDEED several different meanings of the word "witch". THAT never NEEDED to be up for debate. If someone does not AGREE that there SHOULD be more than one definition, THAT is his/her business...but in fact there IS, and has been for many years, more than one definition...like it or not, that is not only a fact, but common knowledge among those with experience in research of the particular topic/subject!])
Kitty =^__^=
KittySilvermoon 00:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I've just (badly) reverted a section. can anyone help get it back to the way it was? Probably needs linking. Totnesmartin 00:55, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(table of molluscs deleted)
in the popular culture section, there is only a short description of the general popular perception of witches. is there any information on how witches came to be known as old women with pointy hats, green skin and warts who stir cauldrons? do any of these things have historical roots? i think answers to these would help the article. Bigdan201 08:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
((right off, I state that I have only the vaguest idea of how talkpages work. Excuse me if I screw it up, please.)) Also in Pop Culture, the description of Elphaba is flawed. The Wicked Witch of the West in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was not named Elphaba. She was, in fact, unnamed, though there are several other named witches in Oz. The name Elphaba was created by Gregory Maguire for his revisionist novel Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West.
And, now that I look at it, the Macbeth reference might be faulty as well. As far as I recall, they are referred to only as "Weird Sisters" in the play, and not as witches - though that is generally what they are presumed to be. This, however, goes back to the arguement of what makes a witch... 64.211.50.218 17:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Tiktokism
I propose editing the popular culture section to seperate it into more categories such as television, movies, and books so that they can each be elaborated on. If there arent any objections i would like to start on it soon. Grey witch 05:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with the recent photo addition. This article is about witchcraft all over the world, and starting it off with a photo depicting a completely Western stereotype is a bad—and ethnocentric—representation. Furthermore, using a picture that represents a stereotype in itself, and a specifically negative one at that, goes against any educational values that this article may have. This photo represents something that has very little to do with witchcraft as it is viewed and practiced on a global scale, and it belongs on the Broadway article more than it does here. I would like to remove it, but wanted first to see what others think. Thanks, romarin talk ] 05:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
In Old English, wicca and wicce may not have blah sense now lost to modern scholars What in the world is "may not have blah sense" supposed to mean? I'd correct the article, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to say in the first place; I'm pretty sure "blah sense" isn't right, though.
I've heard Irish folklore says witches can turn in to a cat 8 times before being unable to change back. Can somebody confirm? Include it? Trekphiler 11:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
It might be not relevant for THIS article...but this article's talk page might be a good place to mention that I'd really love to see (and maybe even help write, if I ever get enough time! ^_~)an article specifically on the folklore of cats (including their mythological [magical ^_^] connections to witches, goddesses, etc.). Would Trekphiler and/or other users here be interested in contributing to such an article? (Whoever wants to, or gets to it first, or whatever, feel free to start writing one...and then we can discuss it further on THAT article's talk page, if we want to! ^_^)
(Btw, I think that I might've heard that same scrap of folklore before too, a long time ago [it would fit well with cats having nine lives and all that sort of thing, certainly!]. I can't confirm or deny it either, though. [The (old, probably out-of-print) book Nine Lives: The Folklore of Cats, by Katharine Briggs, is an especially good source of cat lore. ^_^ You may be able to find it in libraries. Good luck, good hunting, etc.! ^_^])
Kitty =^__^=
KittySilvermoon 22:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
OK. Can I have a citation of real (rather than claimed or alleged) practitioners of witchcraft, as defined in this article, including paranormal magic. Otherwise I'm removing references within the article, because they don't exist. - MrArt 00:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
MrArt placed a {{fact}} tag in the intro with the following edit summary: "I'm shortly going to remove this statement unless someone cites the existence of 'modern practitioners' of actual witchcraft". The tagged statement was about modern practitioners' views of witchcraft as being morally positive. I removed the tag because I believe I can answer his complaint.
Now firstly, the article doesn't claim that these powers are necessarily real, or if it does, it shouldn't. So when discussing modern practitioners, they are people who believe or claim that they are using magical or supernatural powers. There are plenty such people. Secondly, the word "witch" is widely used in a variety of contexts to describe such people. It is used in historical/anthropological contexts to describe, for instance, the individuals in early Modern Europe who believed they left their bodies in a trance, attended fantastical feasts, fought evil spirits, communed with the dead and cursed or healed their neighbours; also for non-european sorcerors in places like Africa. It is also used very widely amongst self-professed practitioners of witchcraft, such as Wiccans, neopagan witches and others who claim older origins.
These are very common uses of the term, and Wikipedia should reflect common usage. If you believe that "witch" only refers to people with actual provable magical powers then you are imposing your own ideosynchratic restrictions on its meaning. Fuzzypeg ☻ 00:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Keep in mind the belief and the practice of witchcraft still exists in many parts of the world (outside of Europe,North America, Australia & New Zeland). (Now whether they have actually paranormal powers is another issue and topic.)
Bill (Feb 7, 2007)
A good site seems to be www.witchcraftspellsnow.com. Would it be ok to add that to the links? The webmaster is a Priestess and explains the beliefs of Wicca. Probably the most amazing thing on this website, which I have seen linked on other Witchcraft sites is her famous Top 50 Witchcraft Myths page. I figured it would be a good link to add because of that one page alone. The article really doesnt go into common myths about witchcraft all that much which is a big topic for those new to witchcraft. The page with the top 50 witchcraft myths is http://www.witchcraftspellsnow.com/top50witchcraftmyths.htm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.109.65 ( talk • contribs)
"Since Gardner's death in 1964 the "Wicca" cult that Gardner claims he was initiated into has attracted many initiates, becoming the largest of the various "witchcraft" traditions in the Western world. Members of the cult have steadily been claiming to to be real "witches" for the past forty years, a notion further disseminated by such fictional television dramas as Charmed. However in truth a Wiccan is about as genuine a "witch" by initiation into the cult as a Grand Wizard is a "wizard" by initiation into the K.K.K. "
This section of the article uses blatently defaming words and comparisons, and should have no place in this particular article. While I do believe that Wicca should definitely be presented in this article, as it does play a huge role in the modern understanding of present-day witchcraft, it should be done briefly, fairly, and with a more unbiased and less slanderous tone than what is presented. I do not yet know what could be done to improve the paragraph/area, and that is why I am bringing it up here, so that hopefully we can peacefully come to a consensus as to how to correct it. :-)
(I apologize in advance if I do/have done something inappropriately, or do not/have not follow(ed) convention. I am quite new at this (having only just created an account upon encountering this particular piece.)
LilyRain 18:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose http://www.blue-moon-manor.com/ which presents witchcraft from a traditional point of view, rather than Wiccan. I am the webmaster and a Traditional Witch.
Traditional Witchcraft, or Trad Witchcraft, is a family of witchcraft traditions of the British Isles that date back into time. This website describes one Trad's witchcraft spirituality. The website includes a Glossary of Witchcraft Terms.
Adrianius 03:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Fuzzypeg, I read your well-presented comments with keen interest, appreciation, and a dose of Pepto-Bismol. Your comments revealed two over-sights I had not considered.
1) Of course, my own Trad rituals are NOT on the website. The rituals I published were created by me for the general public to be as pagan-generic as possible. Big mistake. I should have been aware that some would think they were my rituals. I need to rectify this a.s.a.p.
2) Of course, we never observed Mabon or even some of the other festivals recognized by Wicca, as listed in the Festivals section of Blue Moon Manor website. Again, I was too accommodating to the general reader and should have thought about consistency with my personal Trad. This was also a blunder and will be rectified a.s.a.p. Also, I was unaware the name, Mabon, is bogus.
3) Perhaps the primary point that I submit is that Gerald Gardner's Wiccan creation of 1951 (or 1954 if you prefer) was certainly itself a study of "inaccurate or unverifiable material." However, I realize that an Alexandrian "High Priest" would not necessarily agree to such a hypothesis, even with empirical evidence such as may be evident.
Nevertheless, as far as I am concerned, I believe that between your Alexandrian perspective and my London Trad perspective, it is only a matter of some different points-of-view between two confederates.
I would have thought the topic of witchcraft would be open to a wide spectrum of Traditional Witchcraft points-of-view, rather than the pressing of a Wiccan orthodox interpretation as a censorship standard. This does seem to be the situation. This is most disappointing. For you see, Fuzzypeg (and I do say that name with sincere respect), what is your accurate opinion I can find to be "factually inaccurate."
I am sure we could both apply the principles of argumentation theory and absolutely prove ourselves to be unquestionably correct, at least in our own minds, respectively.
5) However, I do fully accept that websites accepted on Wikipedia should not be commercial. So, by the merit of that one argument, I do concur with you, and accept my fate of being silenced. Gee, I feel so persecuted.
One last thing, I appreciate your time in replying. With my regards,
Adrianius 20:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the info in Witch is either repeated (and better written) here or at Witch-hunt; there's a significant amount that's either original research or just plain wrong; and there is one brief statement that we might want to save, although exactly where we should incorporate it, I don't know:
One leaf we could take from the Witch article is that it has a section on witches in floklore and mythology; it is very poorly written and not worth copying, but at least it has this section, something that is conspicuously lacking here. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The section on Europe could be made shorter to aid legibility. I suspect that most of what is said here is already in the articles on "Witchcraft in Europe" or "Witch-hunt". DanielDemaret 09:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I have added to the Etymology section a cut-and-paste of the entire section from the article on Wicca. This is in pursuit of a general shortening and tidying of that article, and also because the etymologies are so much intertwined that it seems silly to have a detailed discussion in two separate places. I realise this makes this section very long (and possibly repetitive.) Perhaps there needs to be an entirely separate article on the etymology of witch/withcraft/Wicca? I will happily migrate this text to such a page, if people think this is the right idea. Please do not just do a straight revert of this: I do realise it leads to an untidy and over-long section, but I believe this material belongs together. I will put this page on watch, and happily join a discussion here or on my talk page. Many thanks! Kim dent brown 19:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Russian witchcraft got created then immediately flagged for deletion. I removed that flag and proposed a merge into Witchcraft. Your thoughts? Davidwr 14:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Is witchcraft Related to satanism? I hear that a lot. I Do Know God Condemns black magic But condones White. user:Bloodsource
This has been the justification for removing a few sections of the article recently. I agree with some of the deletions; in particular there was an addition under the Spellcasting heading that seemed only intended to insert a spam link as a reference. However this argument is only valid so far. Neopagan witchcraft may be "historically anachronistic" in the sense that it doesn't strongly mirror older practices or conceptions of witchcraft, however the descriptions of neopagan witchcraft are in fact pretty faithful descriptions, and they should remain in the article. I'd be happy if they were more segregated into their own section, rather than popping up in lots of little places around the article, and in fact that would happen according to my vision for the article.
I would like to see this article track the historical development of the concept, drawing on the work of Eva Pocs, Carlo Ginzburg, E. William Monter and so on. It would start with proto-witchcraft (ancient witchcraft in all but name) and move forward through the witch-trials and the development of the diabolical Sabbath stereotype, cunning-craft and the various horsemen's, millers' and masons' guilds, 19th and early 20th century literary additions such as Charles Leland and Margaret Murray, application of the term to non-European cultures by anthropologists, and finally neopagan witchcraft.
Anyway, deletion of large sections of text should generally be accompanied by a fairly comprehensive explanation of why, and some discussion is generally appreciated before major changes to an article. Thanks, Fuzzypeg ☻ 22:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
>Fuzzypeg: Sorry I didn't include any type of explanation for my edits, which were I have to admit performed in haste at close to 1 a.m. my time. The entry looked rude, but wasn't intended to be. "Historically anachronistic" was the shortest phrase I could think of to squeeze into the explanation box. And tidying up (rather than "spinning" the subject matter) was all I was after.
I agree with you about a fresh approach incorporating Ginzburg's work. Also included should be mention of Eliade's "Occultism, Witchcraft and Cultural Fashion" (which has more material about the Benandanti, Romanian parallels, and "Irodiada"/"Herodiada"). And yes, surely the guilds you refer to should be dealt with as well. However, the subject is so large not to mention complex, it really deserves a scholarly new book, not just an article. Not sure what Ginzburg is up to these days; unfortunately Culianu could have tackled it, but alas he is no longer with us.
P.S. as Vidkun observes, somehow I have lost my KitMarlowe soubriquet. I can't imagine how that happened. Pahuson 23:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC
Someone has suggested including the separate article "Russian Witchcraft" in the "Witchcraft" article. I see no reason not to do this, and nobody else seems to have raised an objection. So I shall attempt to do this. If anyone finds this objectionable, he or she is welcome to revert the material to its original status. Pahuson 05:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I shall also add some reference material.
This is the first time i've posted here so i got a question. Would it be such a good idea to post spells and potions. You know the people here researching this stuff may want to know some spells and potions and things like that. User:Bloodsource
I don't know about that. Maybe i can make a link to my favorite site for spells and all that. But i'm afraid i might get in trouble so i'll leave it up to someone else. The site name is: WWW.SpellsandMagic.com.
Spells, white magic, ceremonial magic, incantations, candle magic,
black magic, conjuration's, and invocations. It's all here to help you through life. If you believe in the power of Magic your dreams can come true. So be it! We all have needs in life and Magic can help fulfill those needs. Whether it be power, money, fame, revenge, love or hate... the universe can be bent to our will and it can all be achieved with
spells and magic.
Witches and accused witches were persecuted for hundreds of years, until, in 1951, the law in England was rewritten because of a Wiccan High Priest named Gerald B. Gardner. While employed as a civil servant, he decided to declare his religious preference – Witchcraft. He demonstrated a ritual to the Parliament and explained the nature of his worship so they would realise that his religion was not about demons, destruction and sacrifice.
If you click on the black magic part it wont show any ritual but it show a cat with a gun and warns of black magic thankfully it does that. but i guess your right about that. but what if i posted some on my user page?
This statement had a {{dubious}} tag attached, with the edit comment reading "mmmm, debatable... the feminist revisionist historians who like to look at witchcraft persecutions as sexism make this claim, but it doesn't hold up in witchcraft trial records". Actually this is not a feminist revisionism; it is fact, well evidenced, and agreed on by all the witch-trial historians I've read: Keith Thomas, Norman Cohn, Eva Pocs, Carlo Ginzburg, Ronald Hutton, E William Monter, Alan Macfarlane, etc, etc. In a few places such as Iceland men were the more common victims, but in most countries women were by far the majority.
I find myself smarting a little at the phrase "the feminist revisionist historians". As if feminist history = revisionist history, or perhaps feminism = load of rubbish. This is probably not what you intended, but it's a good idea to be careful with your phrasing, and evaluate evidence based on its merits, rather than what light it shows women in. There are many conservative academic historians who have produced highly flawed and polemical history, and there are many feminist historians who have written balanced, scholarly and authoritative history. It's not about what club you belong to or what banner you go under, but how well researched you are, and how well your work follows the evidence. Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I recently removed what I considered to be an "essay": view diff here, and I believe I may not have explained my reasons clearly enough in the edit comment.
I noted this was largely about Wicca and thus more appropriate to that sub-section, or indeed the Wicca article, since the Witchcraft article is about witchcraft historically and anthropologically, as well as the many modern varieties in different cultures. Wicca is only one modern variety. The "cited colour association" I said was atypical referred to the associations given to the colour white: supposedly most associated with the Moon, but also associated with the elements of air and fire. Now first off, witchcraft worldwide and throughout history has a huge number of associations with the colour white, and in traditional European witchcraft I would venture to suggest that white is most commonly associated with the witches' Goddess, death, and perhaps winter. Certainly air and fire seem quite atypical. That Lexies and Gards are less likely to call themselves "White" might possibly be true, but even with my knowledge of these communities I couldn't be sure of this. This looks like original research, and is a classic case of an assertion that needs to be supported by cited evidence. "Green Witches" may be a term that has some usage in the United States; it's certainly uncommon here. But I would suggest that the description you've given of the people you then term Green Witches, "focus their energies on natural healing through ancient herbal remedies and the channeling healing energy", actually applies to just about all people who call themselves "witches", and few of these would claim to be any particular colour. I'm not saying any of this is wrong; it just seems to be overly specialised for this section of the article, and atypical within the greater scope of world witchcraft practices. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I've just removed the following section from the article:
My problems with this text are as follows:
Thanks. Fuzzypeg ☻ 01:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I just did a big removal of info, replacing it with a brief summary of trends. I probably went overboard I'm sorry, but I think we need to adopt a new approach for this section:
Thanks, Fuzzypeg ☻ 01:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi I’m a baby witch looking for an older wiser witch to teach me I have powers but don’t know how much about spells and the way we do things I’ve been researching a lot and my spirit guides told me to reach out