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NOTE: some old talk is also on Talk:Eastern and Western Vilnius regions. Renata 05:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Where is source for 60% of Poles? This is not just for Vilnius city, but whole Vilnius region, including parts of it with Lithuanian and Byelorussian majorities. DeirYassin 20:43, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
IMO this article should be either merged with Wilno Voivodship and Central Lithuania or simply reduced to a stub and then rewritten from the scratches. There are inaccuracies in almost every sentence here...
-- Halibu tt 23:46, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
It should not be merged, both of mentioned territories means other things. Central Lithuania is smaller, Wilno Voivodhsip does not includes most of territories at south and includes more, unclaimed territoris towards the east. Besides, they has different meanings, Wilno Voivodship was administrative unit of Poland, Central Lithuania was a puppte state, Vilnius region is the territory, claimed by Lithuania. It would be same as merging Kashmir with Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, or mergin West Bank with Judea/ Samaria; in other words, Wikipedia does not does such practice, it is revisionist. DeirYassin 05:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Another comment: Vilnius, Gardinas and Lyda, are official names of cities of Vilnius region; by this time official names already should be used, same as you use Wilno, Grodno, etc. for Polish cities. Vilnius region, when mentioned in this context, in generally means territory of Lithuania (or claimed by Lithuania), therefore Lithuanian names should be used. Wilno Voivodship is territory of Poland, so it's cities might be named in Polish if there'd be list. And please do not change city names in any of the articles: you yourself tend to use Polsih names for all cities in polish-Lithuanian commonwealth for example instead of local names, even for fiefs, e.g. Kroliewiec. You can write more in supposedly oversimplified parts. Zeligovski was Polish general and I hope you understand how it was and I hope that you dont think that he was soem independent person and that his actions werent influenced by Poland. Cause if you believe things like that, then there wouldnt be much point in discussing because you would always just take Polish opinion anyways. Will write more later. DeirYassin 06:49, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
As for other countries in the world; Poland qwas a stronger country and more useful for Western European countries (cause of being between Germany and Russia where they wanted to have a strong country), therefore it was supported. It is official capital what matters; Amsterdam is Dutch capital even though king residence is in Hague. "Barely any Lithuanians" - there were whole regions with Lithuanian majority. Central Lithuania did not encompass whole Vilnius region. Electoral region (the zone where election was made) was larger than Central Lithuania ("state"), it included more territories, but still not whole Vilnius region. The repelling of War Situation in Lithuania has to do with Vilnius region, because that martial law was established cause of the occupation of Vilnius region; it's repelling meant that Lithuanian position is getting gentler. Quiet protests - people quietly gathered in Kaunas, as far as I remember with candles, in black clothes. As for "Lithuanians say" - well, I can tell that once in an article I wrote exact info on who says what and in what book and that was not liked. As for more territories being attached to LSSR, those were Švenčionys and surroundings and Druskininkai and surroundings, also Dieveniškės and surroundings. There was the Lithuanian region part of Ostland, and it is mentioned how it differed in size comparing to LSSR. Well, historically Lithuania of course had more rights to Vilnius, and that kingdom of Poland was also union of Poland and Lithuania, and it existed for few years, while Vilnius was Lithuanian for hundreds of years. Vilnius region was not entirely in Wilno voivodship. Central Lithuania was (the state), but not Vilnius region. I think misconception here arises probably cause Poles calls both the occupied zone and the "state" established in part of that zone Central Lithuania; that is why two articles are needed, one about the state, and one about the occupied territory as a whole. In Lithuanian these are separated, the state is called "Vidurio Lietuva", and region is called "Vilniaus kraštas". In short, you can edit the artcle where there are factual inaccuracies or bad English; but please do not make it into a Polish revisionist artcile as this is international Wikipedia DeirYassin 08:13, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Also I remember you objected word occupation somewhere. Well, as I understand the word, it means any inclusion of territory of one state into other state using force or ultimatums without the consent of first state. Therefore Vilnius region was occupied, as the territory legally belonged to Lithuania after Soviet-Lithuanian peace treaty agreement. Especially the parts where elections were not done (e.g. Gardinas, Druskininkai). DeirYassin 09:19, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Could you reply in points? It would be easier to keep track of the agreed changes. Halibu tt 10:06, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
All right, I'll check the status of our current dispute basing on my questions and your replies.
So, all in all, most of my questions and remarks remain unsolved (forgive me if I missed any replies or explanations). Once we reach a compromise on the basic facts, we could prepare a new article and try to make it at least a tad NPOV. So far the present version seems completely unacceptable... Halibu tt 09:35, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Before answers, I will write this as it matters to more than one question, it is the definitions. Vilnius Region is area which belonged to Lithuania legally because it was attributed by treaty with Russia. In Lithuania it was always seen as territory belonging to Lithuania but occupied, rather than claim. Territory, which was claimed, was the Suvalkai region. In the maps from interwar Lithuania which I have seen (I mean, published during those times), Vilnius region is always included, but in some maps Suvalkai region is excluded from Lithuania. Central Lithuania was a country established in part of Vilnius region; i.e. in part of region which according to peace treaty with Russia was part of Lithuania. Suvalkai region (claimed area) is NOT considered part of Vilnius region as it was not given to Lithuania by said Lithuanian-Russian treaty. Shortly:
Ok answers now:
DeirYassin 12:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
DeirYassin, only few points:
When something is with mind... nothing to do... May be is it strange influence of "Historia Polski. Klasa 10. Warszawa, 1935"? Zivinbudas 20:54, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I prepared a sketch of a new version of this article at User:Halibutt/Vilnius region. It is by no means finished, so please be patient. If you have any suggestions or remarks - please feel free to make them. However, let's refrain from changing that sketch; it is in my own user space and I prefer to finish it myself before moving it to main wiki space.
I tried to focus mainly on the history of the Lithuanian claim, as well as the reasons behind claiming the area. I guess that there's no need to duplicate the History of Vilnius and Central Lithuania articles there, the history section should be sketchy and refer to the already-existing articles. Also, I decided not to use the POV terms that would support or disprove the Lithuanian claim ("Polish occupation", "illegal Lithuanian occupation", "Martian rule"...). Please do not suggest adding POV statements, it makes no sense. Halibu tt 17:19, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
Notes: for reasons I mentioned, Lithuanian names of cities should be used; Polish anmes might be used when reffering to territory as part or Poland or Central Lithuania, but not when reffering to Lithuanian claim or such. Also what is not true is that it was claimed "mostly ion historical reasons taht it was part of LGD", well then Lithuanians would have claimed whole Belarus and etc. The fact is that these areas were previously Lithuanian speaking, and therefore because there was no immigration, people there remained ethnically Lithuanians; that was reason for claim. There should be more mentionings about this, also more mentionings about the ultimatum, more mentionings about Lithuanian views towards the "coup" by Želigowski and such. I think personally that it would work better if other points of view would be added to current artcile, because current version already has info from Lithuanian side and you could add info from other side. DeirYassin 19:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
As for that idea, IMO historical basis for that should be mentioned (I think it does not includes Jews by the way, as Jews moved from elsewhere, but slavs instead as tehre was no major immigration of them). I think actually for names good compromise would be what I suggested, writing of names depending on contest (e.g. "Lithuania continued to recognise Vilnius as it's capital", but "Wilno was made capital of Wilno Voivodship" - would be the best, because officially, Vilnius was capital of Lithania and it was written this way; while Wilno was capital of said voivodship and it was written this way officially by Poles). Names would be explained at the first time of mentioning. If you talk something about Jews, then it could be Vilna (Yiddish name), e.g. "Jews consdered Vilna to be Jerusalem of north". In fact, it is already this way (e.g. Vilna Gaon article; articles about Polish things mentioning Vilnius as Wilno and about Lithuanian things mentoining it as Vilnius). As for ultimatum, yes, it might be explained in separate article. Also some things should be moved here from Central Lithuania article, so they wouldn't dublicate each other, but rather Vilnius region would be about the region, while central Lithuania would be about the short-lived 'state' in part of region. DeirYassin 09:01, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I recently rewrote this article in order to better explain both the nature of the Lithuanian claim and the actual history of it. However, as I predicted, the article was changed by Deir Yassin to present solely the Lithuanian nationalist POV. Too bad, I was hoping to end the dispute...
Specific concerns are:
Anyway, I lost incentive to repeat the arguments over and over again. Halibu tt 15:55, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
It's POV. Xx236 11:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The map data showing "the areas of Lithuania with Polish majority as of 2006" is wrong. Please correct it. Polish as majority are only in Salcininkai region and Vilnius region, without Vilnius city and Vilnius city municipality. In the drawn picture about 40% of Trakai region are marked as "Polish majority" while where lives 19798 Lithuanians, 12403 Polish, 3188 Russians(2005.11.22 http://www.stat.gov.lt/lt/pages/view/?id=357). Secondly, Vilnius city and Vilnius municipality contours/borders seems good, but the size of it is obviously too small compared with official map. In order to drawn correctly, I suggest to use a map with regions borders. In newly, correctly drawn map we should see Vilnius city municipality surrounded not from all sides by "polish majority", but as having "a corridor in the west-south direction".
If you can please provide, in the talk page, Lentvaris, Trakai, Senieji Trakai, Paluknis little regions stats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.25.150 ( talk) 18:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
NOTE: some old talk is also on Talk:Eastern and Western Vilnius regions. Renata 05:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Where is source for 60% of Poles? This is not just for Vilnius city, but whole Vilnius region, including parts of it with Lithuanian and Byelorussian majorities. DeirYassin 20:43, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
IMO this article should be either merged with Wilno Voivodship and Central Lithuania or simply reduced to a stub and then rewritten from the scratches. There are inaccuracies in almost every sentence here...
-- Halibu tt 23:46, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
It should not be merged, both of mentioned territories means other things. Central Lithuania is smaller, Wilno Voivodhsip does not includes most of territories at south and includes more, unclaimed territoris towards the east. Besides, they has different meanings, Wilno Voivodship was administrative unit of Poland, Central Lithuania was a puppte state, Vilnius region is the territory, claimed by Lithuania. It would be same as merging Kashmir with Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, or mergin West Bank with Judea/ Samaria; in other words, Wikipedia does not does such practice, it is revisionist. DeirYassin 05:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Another comment: Vilnius, Gardinas and Lyda, are official names of cities of Vilnius region; by this time official names already should be used, same as you use Wilno, Grodno, etc. for Polish cities. Vilnius region, when mentioned in this context, in generally means territory of Lithuania (or claimed by Lithuania), therefore Lithuanian names should be used. Wilno Voivodship is territory of Poland, so it's cities might be named in Polish if there'd be list. And please do not change city names in any of the articles: you yourself tend to use Polsih names for all cities in polish-Lithuanian commonwealth for example instead of local names, even for fiefs, e.g. Kroliewiec. You can write more in supposedly oversimplified parts. Zeligovski was Polish general and I hope you understand how it was and I hope that you dont think that he was soem independent person and that his actions werent influenced by Poland. Cause if you believe things like that, then there wouldnt be much point in discussing because you would always just take Polish opinion anyways. Will write more later. DeirYassin 06:49, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
As for other countries in the world; Poland qwas a stronger country and more useful for Western European countries (cause of being between Germany and Russia where they wanted to have a strong country), therefore it was supported. It is official capital what matters; Amsterdam is Dutch capital even though king residence is in Hague. "Barely any Lithuanians" - there were whole regions with Lithuanian majority. Central Lithuania did not encompass whole Vilnius region. Electoral region (the zone where election was made) was larger than Central Lithuania ("state"), it included more territories, but still not whole Vilnius region. The repelling of War Situation in Lithuania has to do with Vilnius region, because that martial law was established cause of the occupation of Vilnius region; it's repelling meant that Lithuanian position is getting gentler. Quiet protests - people quietly gathered in Kaunas, as far as I remember with candles, in black clothes. As for "Lithuanians say" - well, I can tell that once in an article I wrote exact info on who says what and in what book and that was not liked. As for more territories being attached to LSSR, those were Švenčionys and surroundings and Druskininkai and surroundings, also Dieveniškės and surroundings. There was the Lithuanian region part of Ostland, and it is mentioned how it differed in size comparing to LSSR. Well, historically Lithuania of course had more rights to Vilnius, and that kingdom of Poland was also union of Poland and Lithuania, and it existed for few years, while Vilnius was Lithuanian for hundreds of years. Vilnius region was not entirely in Wilno voivodship. Central Lithuania was (the state), but not Vilnius region. I think misconception here arises probably cause Poles calls both the occupied zone and the "state" established in part of that zone Central Lithuania; that is why two articles are needed, one about the state, and one about the occupied territory as a whole. In Lithuanian these are separated, the state is called "Vidurio Lietuva", and region is called "Vilniaus kraštas". In short, you can edit the artcle where there are factual inaccuracies or bad English; but please do not make it into a Polish revisionist artcile as this is international Wikipedia DeirYassin 08:13, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Also I remember you objected word occupation somewhere. Well, as I understand the word, it means any inclusion of territory of one state into other state using force or ultimatums without the consent of first state. Therefore Vilnius region was occupied, as the territory legally belonged to Lithuania after Soviet-Lithuanian peace treaty agreement. Especially the parts where elections were not done (e.g. Gardinas, Druskininkai). DeirYassin 09:19, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Could you reply in points? It would be easier to keep track of the agreed changes. Halibu tt 10:06, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
All right, I'll check the status of our current dispute basing on my questions and your replies.
So, all in all, most of my questions and remarks remain unsolved (forgive me if I missed any replies or explanations). Once we reach a compromise on the basic facts, we could prepare a new article and try to make it at least a tad NPOV. So far the present version seems completely unacceptable... Halibu tt 09:35, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
Before answers, I will write this as it matters to more than one question, it is the definitions. Vilnius Region is area which belonged to Lithuania legally because it was attributed by treaty with Russia. In Lithuania it was always seen as territory belonging to Lithuania but occupied, rather than claim. Territory, which was claimed, was the Suvalkai region. In the maps from interwar Lithuania which I have seen (I mean, published during those times), Vilnius region is always included, but in some maps Suvalkai region is excluded from Lithuania. Central Lithuania was a country established in part of Vilnius region; i.e. in part of region which according to peace treaty with Russia was part of Lithuania. Suvalkai region (claimed area) is NOT considered part of Vilnius region as it was not given to Lithuania by said Lithuanian-Russian treaty. Shortly:
Ok answers now:
DeirYassin 12:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
DeirYassin, only few points:
When something is with mind... nothing to do... May be is it strange influence of "Historia Polski. Klasa 10. Warszawa, 1935"? Zivinbudas 20:54, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
I prepared a sketch of a new version of this article at User:Halibutt/Vilnius region. It is by no means finished, so please be patient. If you have any suggestions or remarks - please feel free to make them. However, let's refrain from changing that sketch; it is in my own user space and I prefer to finish it myself before moving it to main wiki space.
I tried to focus mainly on the history of the Lithuanian claim, as well as the reasons behind claiming the area. I guess that there's no need to duplicate the History of Vilnius and Central Lithuania articles there, the history section should be sketchy and refer to the already-existing articles. Also, I decided not to use the POV terms that would support or disprove the Lithuanian claim ("Polish occupation", "illegal Lithuanian occupation", "Martian rule"...). Please do not suggest adding POV statements, it makes no sense. Halibu tt 17:19, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
Notes: for reasons I mentioned, Lithuanian names of cities should be used; Polish anmes might be used when reffering to territory as part or Poland or Central Lithuania, but not when reffering to Lithuanian claim or such. Also what is not true is that it was claimed "mostly ion historical reasons taht it was part of LGD", well then Lithuanians would have claimed whole Belarus and etc. The fact is that these areas were previously Lithuanian speaking, and therefore because there was no immigration, people there remained ethnically Lithuanians; that was reason for claim. There should be more mentionings about this, also more mentionings about the ultimatum, more mentionings about Lithuanian views towards the "coup" by Želigowski and such. I think personally that it would work better if other points of view would be added to current artcile, because current version already has info from Lithuanian side and you could add info from other side. DeirYassin 19:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
As for that idea, IMO historical basis for that should be mentioned (I think it does not includes Jews by the way, as Jews moved from elsewhere, but slavs instead as tehre was no major immigration of them). I think actually for names good compromise would be what I suggested, writing of names depending on contest (e.g. "Lithuania continued to recognise Vilnius as it's capital", but "Wilno was made capital of Wilno Voivodship" - would be the best, because officially, Vilnius was capital of Lithania and it was written this way; while Wilno was capital of said voivodship and it was written this way officially by Poles). Names would be explained at the first time of mentioning. If you talk something about Jews, then it could be Vilna (Yiddish name), e.g. "Jews consdered Vilna to be Jerusalem of north". In fact, it is already this way (e.g. Vilna Gaon article; articles about Polish things mentioning Vilnius as Wilno and about Lithuanian things mentoining it as Vilnius). As for ultimatum, yes, it might be explained in separate article. Also some things should be moved here from Central Lithuania article, so they wouldn't dublicate each other, but rather Vilnius region would be about the region, while central Lithuania would be about the short-lived 'state' in part of region. DeirYassin 09:01, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
I recently rewrote this article in order to better explain both the nature of the Lithuanian claim and the actual history of it. However, as I predicted, the article was changed by Deir Yassin to present solely the Lithuanian nationalist POV. Too bad, I was hoping to end the dispute...
Specific concerns are:
Anyway, I lost incentive to repeat the arguments over and over again. Halibu tt 15:55, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
It's POV. Xx236 11:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The map data showing "the areas of Lithuania with Polish majority as of 2006" is wrong. Please correct it. Polish as majority are only in Salcininkai region and Vilnius region, without Vilnius city and Vilnius city municipality. In the drawn picture about 40% of Trakai region are marked as "Polish majority" while where lives 19798 Lithuanians, 12403 Polish, 3188 Russians(2005.11.22 http://www.stat.gov.lt/lt/pages/view/?id=357). Secondly, Vilnius city and Vilnius municipality contours/borders seems good, but the size of it is obviously too small compared with official map. In order to drawn correctly, I suggest to use a map with regions borders. In newly, correctly drawn map we should see Vilnius city municipality surrounded not from all sides by "polish majority", but as having "a corridor in the west-south direction".
If you can please provide, in the talk page, Lentvaris, Trakai, Senieji Trakai, Paluknis little regions stats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.25.150 ( talk) 18:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)