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I found three possibilities rather quickly: -- Ronz ( talk) 03:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The abstract from the first source reads: "There were no significant hormone changes from baseline to the end of the study in either group of men. We conclude that in normal males there was no advantage in taking deer velvet to enhance sexual function."
The abstract from the second source concludes: "Overall, elk velvet antler does not effectively manage residual symptoms in patients with rheumatoid arthritis"
I could not find the third source (the link produced a "Page not found" error). Taking a quick look at what is available on Google Scholar, it seems that peer-reviewed, research medicine journals have found no evidence that deer antler velvet has any measurable health benefits in humans. This is not to say that deer antler velvet has not been the subject of scientific study, but so far, those studies are either inconclusive (at best) or else show that deer antler velvet has no measurable health benefits. I recommend rewriting the section of the article that begins with "Modern scientific research..." to bring the claimed health benefits more in line with the research record. Jkdimmel ( talk) 13:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
This article is an advertisement with links to a seller. Why has it not been removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.9.95 ( talk) 15:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
While not an medrs source in my opinion, being excerpts from Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database, this is something usable at least for claims made for it despite the lack of any medical evidence: http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-808-DEER%20VELVET.aspx?activeIngredientId=808&activeIngredientName=DEER%20VELVET -- Ronz ( talk) 20:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
In trying to determine how to use it, I notice that it doesn't distinguish between actual antler velvet and the pre-calcified antler that's actually used. So much for this source being well-researched. Should we still use it? -- Ronz ( talk) 20:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I reverted to prior to the additions of 68.98.4.64 ( talk · contribs), because the main source, antlerfarms.com, is not reliable. The other two might be reliable for some information, but are obviously extremely biased. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I removed it yet again. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:59, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
It would probably be due weight to mention the spray extract form, which is mentioned at Ray Lewis (football), but I think it would be undue weight to mention Lewis in this article. -- Ronz ( talk) 18:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I've proposed a merge from Deer Antler Spray, and would like some help from another editor if you feel there's anything from there worth putting into this article. If not, I'll just make a redirect to velvet antler. Hoof Hearted ( talk) 16:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Dear All.
Best regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 13:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Let's be clear about something -
I'm going ahead and requesting it be automatically removed whenever it's added again. Blocking ip's doesn't look like it would be appropriate. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:32, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
For any write-up of the clinical trial science pertaining to athletic performance, I recommend the references listed below. Gilbey 2012 reviews the published work (including both sports performance and other applications). I consider it an unbiased review. Suttie 2004 includes the unpublished studies on sports performance. I consider it biased in favor of concluding there are benefits.
A point that needs to be made is the fallacy of insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) being the active ingredient in deer antler velvet dietary supplements (powder, drops, spray). First, DAV is pasteurized, which would inactivate this protein hormone. Second, oral consumption of IGF-1 is nonsensical, as the protein cannot be absorbed intact. There is a FDA-approved indication for IGF-1 as an injected drug. Not oral. David notMD ( talk) 14:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
1. Gilbey A, Perezgonzalez JD. Health benefits of deer and elk velvet antler supplements: a systematic review of randomised controlled studies. N Z Med J 2012;125(1367):80-86.
2. Allen M, Oberle K, et al. A randomized clinical trial of elk velvet antler in rheumatoid arthritis. Biol Res Nurs 2008;9(3):254-261.
3. Syrotuik DG, MacFadyen KL, et al. Effect of elk velvet antler supplementation on the hormonal response to acute and chronic exercise in male and female rowers. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2005g;15(4):366-385.
4. Sleivert G, Burke V, et al. The effects of deer antler velvet extract or powder supplementation on aerobic power, erythropoiesis, and muscular strength and endurance characteristics. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2003;13(3):251-265.
5. Allen M, Oberle K, Grace M, Russell A. Elk velvet antler in rheumatoid arthritis: phase II trial. Biol Res Nurs 2002;3(3):111-118.
6. Broeder CE, et al. New Zealand deer antler velvet and resistance training impact on body composition, aerobic capacity and strength. Med Sci Sports Exercise 2004;36:284–284.
7. Suttie JM, Haines SR. A review of dose levels of deer velvet products in relation to efficacy. AgResearch New Zealand 2004:167-175.
This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
I ask other people who know about this information to correct and share what they know as appropriate. I have begun the process by adding several topics of interest, my own personal interest in making soups with slices. I tried to do this and was continually edit-warred by user ronz.
I came across this page on 9-15-2015 and began adding credible and reliable sources, as well as pictures to assist conveyance of ideas concerning velvet antler and other topics that redirect to this page such as deer antler velvet and deer antler spray. This project became tedious when user ronz began deleting information and sources based upon non-eligible reasons of removal such as self-published works that are highly referenced. Or the FDA website does not meet MEDRS. Or whatever he feels fit to do.
The attention of an responsible administrator is most likely required to ensure that this page is managed correctly as user ronz will most likely delete any relevant and eligible information he see fit. How do we proceed to add information from folks who know about the information and have read the sources and understand the information. Jazzix ( talk) 00:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Proposed Corrections in line with Wikipedia Guidelines: 2015-9-15 1. Update source as reliable: Kamen, Paul and Betty, The Remarkable Healing Power of Velvet Antler, Nutrition Encounter, Novato, California, 2003, p. 12 should be changed to Kamen, Betty Phd and Paul, The Remarkable Healing Power of Velvet Antler, Nutrition Encounter, Novato, California, 2003, p. 12-34 - Betty Kamen is listed on the title as a Phd and her work is a secondary source compiling over 100 references. A Phd publishing a secondary souce is reliable. ronz suggestion that a self-published work by a Phd is not acceptable in invalid according to wiki guidelines found here /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources
2. Update source as reliable: (2015-9-15) Batchelder, Helen J., Velvet Antler: A Literature Review, p.1 fda.gov - this document admits from a secondary source the recognition of velvet antler as a dietary supplement. It is easy to see the supplement company's name and the word supplement is used several times through the docket. As the FDA only accepts heavily filtered peer reviewed scientific clinical studies as results for acceptance this is a given with this resource to the reliability of the information. Once again, a government organization has published a secondary filtered information on the website for recognition of the velvet antler as a dietary supplement. ronz suggestion that the FDA as a source concerning the status of dietary supplement is invalid concerning the source and ronz's suggestion that the FDA is not a reliable source is invalid according to wiki guidelines for acceptance. In fact, it would be very hard to find a better source if one existed. Jazzix ( talk) 04:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
ronz does not follow wiki guidelines of acceptance and ignores what is considered reliable sources, it is hard to imagine that this user has been on wiki for ten years. ronz has not read the Kamen book nor does he understand the what the FDA is 67.204.178.51 ( talk) 16:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
sorry about the failure to login, to confirm it was me. anything published on the FDA website is managed and run by the FDA - your argument against the FDA is not cogent. In fact you attempted to use the FDA source on this talk page below to disprove my FDA source - ?. The same for Kamen, your argument is not cogent, because the information cited on the wiki page is not about herself so your above link is incorrect. Kamen is a PhD she is a noted expert in her field and has achieved peer recognition. Her PhD is in Nutrition. Not only does she claim to be an expert, her peers do also make such a claim. We are not using her doctorate, but a compiled secondary source that is published, which in itself is required for verifiability. Her data is compiled from over 100 references to come to the expert conclusions in her book and cited upon this page. ronz please apply the correct criteria is determining the reliability of a source. For example: nothing in her book is original research conducted by her. Everything in her book is verifiable by referencing the sources she used in the compiling of her work. Her work also hold a neutral point of view as her book is education material about velvet antler. As your argument against reliability fails I will go ahead and update the wiki entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jazzix ( talk • contribs) 18:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC) Adding to verifiability of Kamen source, the foreword of her book is written by a peer Michael E. Rosenbaum, MD. In addition she has written over 500 health reports and appear in news media as a verifiable source, including the New York Times and Time Magazine. Jazzix ( talk) 18:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
ronz continues to ignore relevant verifiable information and continues to question and edit-war with jazzix over the reliability of sources within wiki guidelines. In the past couple days ronz has deleted jazzix's edits disregarding verifiability of information and relevance to subject. ronz appears to have personal dispute with information supplied by jazzix. jazzix will discontinue all editing until consensus is reached with wiki community Jazzix ( talk) 19:35, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
This one is a close call, but I think I have to agree with Jazzix on this one. Although WP:PRIMARY says to use care with primary sources, it doesn't outright prohibit them. At the same time, though, both of you appear to be edit-warring, so I would be careful with that; also, Jazzix, you were instructed to focus on content instead of denouncing Ronz, but then you just did it again anyway, so that isn't a good idea either. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 00:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC) |
While researching the above, I found: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/.../CyberLetters/ucm056971.pdf
So the product can only be sold as a supplement, with no medical claims whatsoever. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
sorry about that, this section will be a good place to add further information, well done on finding more information ronz Jazzix ( talk) 16:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC) we should be able to find many more sources and may want to move this citing to a section about deer antler spray and igf-1 in the future Jazzix ( talk) 17:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Although the FDA CyberLetter above is relevant to the page, the above is not necessary as no sources substantiate and structure/function claims for antler velvet, previous FDA Batchelder source is a COI being published on a supplement company website shown above in third party. I do suggest that FDA CyberLetter be incorporated into entry concerning controversies and supplement companies making false claims. I found this source to add concerning fda warnings and velvet antler http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2001/velvet_antler.pdf. Jazzix ( talk) 07:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
I have read many new sources today and cited the New Zealand and Australian deer industry. It appears the largest size is 12kg. Even the wiki page for Red Deer makes this claim. I am removing the following information from this entry - "Exceptionally large elk and red deer antler pairs can weigh up to 50 lb (22.6 kg)"
If anyone finds a legitimate source making this claim please replace. Jazzix ( talk) 03:41, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
This statement appears incorrect with new research added to page - "Velvet antler grows rapidly during the spring season up until summer when they have reached maximum growth and calcified." As does the following information - "This timeframe is about March or April until July in the Northern Hemisphere.[1][not in citation given] These correlates to about September or October until January in the Southern Hemisphere." It is imprecise.
http://www.deerfarming.com.au/DFH/DFH18-Velvet_Antler.pdf http://www.deernz.org/deerhub/deer-information/antlers/velvet/removal-0#.VfrVJcKh2M9
This section should probably be expanded, but from what I read these statements were incorrect to be on the page, I am not the expert to apply them though, so I removed them. Jazzix ( talk) 15:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
It appear this source is much better concerning the news articles that are referenced concerning SWATS - http://www.usada.org/supplement-shutdown-sos-winter-2013-2014/
This article is really good as it seems to expose the controversy down to their methods, they are talking about a liposome. /info/en/?search=Liposome - this is apparently why certain professional sports players were having issues with drug tests. Check this out - http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201106/thepostgame-exclusive-nfl-fullback-heath-evans-says-he-uses-controversial-swats-spra Jazzix ( talk) 17:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
very good source - http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2013/11/10/how-to-get-snake-oil-from-deer-antlers-and-make-millions/ Jazzix ( talk) 00:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC) thinking of using above source instead of - http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-deer-antler-spray-2013-5 - as it is better and without direct reference to articles about a supplement company. forbes source has less bias Jazzix ( talk) 00:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC) actually this yahoo article is best for replacing biased source - http://sports.yahoo.com/news/golf--deer-antler-spray-gets-a-pass--so-now-what--004821402.html Jazzix ( talk) 00:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
The business insider release reads like a press release for a supplement company. Removing. Jazzix ( talk) 18:56, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
This statement is a MEDRS conflict - "the blood piece is used to treat arthritis and related disorders". These sources do note that arthritis is a structure/function benefit known as "bone and joint health". This wording from these sources will satisfy any MEDRS conflict with fda regulations. Making changes. Jazzix ( talk) 18:42, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Added Gilbey 2012 review to article. David notMD ( talk) 09:53, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
although for osteoarthritis the findings may have some promise.28 August 2017
This quote is found nowhere on the cited page - "Claims that velvet antler supplements have beneficial effects for any human condition are not currently supported by sound clinical data from human trials." Perhaps Ronz and Jytdog are referring to the correct quotation "Claims made for velvet antler supplements do not appear to be based upon rigorous research from human trials, although for osteoarthritis the findings may have some promise." Proper quote and source is MEDRS and continues to be added per Ronz and Jytdog
"Claims that velvet antler supplements have beneficial effects for any human condition are not currently supported by sound clinical data from human trials."
1st - Above the author claims that "any" human condition from a seven trials that did not study every human condition. Conjecture as the review did not cover every human condition and indeed really stupid looking since it says seven clinical trials prior to statement. Duh! 2nd - The rest of the phrase is a broad generalization of all clinical data, when the review only covered data from seven clinical trail "are not currently supported by sound clinical data from human trials." Any retard knows that seven clinical trials cannot supply such a statement. 3rd - This is one of the statements that actually says nothing. For example: "we proved nothing". How can one prove nothing? Only the dumb and ignorant can't see this, yet it finds its way upon a supposed educational page.
Since July I have offered logical and coherent statements that have been ignored or designated COI as if I have some other agenda than garbage of stupid stuff on wiki pages. One is the abstract from the conclusion the other is a paraphrase that better quotes the authors intentions and conclusions. So what is? Are Admin and Editors of Wiki brain-damaged individuals or are they capable of intelligent though? We all know Ronz, Jytdog, Roxy the dog, do not understand logical statements by their failure to recognize improper statements made by others. If you get me banned you guys know you are brain damaged. If I am not you know the state of affairs is much worse.
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To add to this article: powdered velvet antler is used in combination with raw lacquer in the finishing of guqin, a stringed musical instrument that is produced in China. 98.123.38.211 ( talk) 14:00, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
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Reporting errors |
I found three possibilities rather quickly: -- Ronz ( talk) 03:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The abstract from the first source reads: "There were no significant hormone changes from baseline to the end of the study in either group of men. We conclude that in normal males there was no advantage in taking deer velvet to enhance sexual function."
The abstract from the second source concludes: "Overall, elk velvet antler does not effectively manage residual symptoms in patients with rheumatoid arthritis"
I could not find the third source (the link produced a "Page not found" error). Taking a quick look at what is available on Google Scholar, it seems that peer-reviewed, research medicine journals have found no evidence that deer antler velvet has any measurable health benefits in humans. This is not to say that deer antler velvet has not been the subject of scientific study, but so far, those studies are either inconclusive (at best) or else show that deer antler velvet has no measurable health benefits. I recommend rewriting the section of the article that begins with "Modern scientific research..." to bring the claimed health benefits more in line with the research record. Jkdimmel ( talk) 13:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
This article is an advertisement with links to a seller. Why has it not been removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.9.95 ( talk) 15:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
While not an medrs source in my opinion, being excerpts from Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database, this is something usable at least for claims made for it despite the lack of any medical evidence: http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-808-DEER%20VELVET.aspx?activeIngredientId=808&activeIngredientName=DEER%20VELVET -- Ronz ( talk) 20:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
In trying to determine how to use it, I notice that it doesn't distinguish between actual antler velvet and the pre-calcified antler that's actually used. So much for this source being well-researched. Should we still use it? -- Ronz ( talk) 20:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
I reverted to prior to the additions of 68.98.4.64 ( talk · contribs), because the main source, antlerfarms.com, is not reliable. The other two might be reliable for some information, but are obviously extremely biased. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I removed it yet again. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:59, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
It would probably be due weight to mention the spray extract form, which is mentioned at Ray Lewis (football), but I think it would be undue weight to mention Lewis in this article. -- Ronz ( talk) 18:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I've proposed a merge from Deer Antler Spray, and would like some help from another editor if you feel there's anything from there worth putting into this article. If not, I'll just make a redirect to velvet antler. Hoof Hearted ( talk) 16:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Dear All.
Best regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 13:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Let's be clear about something -
I'm going ahead and requesting it be automatically removed whenever it's added again. Blocking ip's doesn't look like it would be appropriate. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:32, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
For any write-up of the clinical trial science pertaining to athletic performance, I recommend the references listed below. Gilbey 2012 reviews the published work (including both sports performance and other applications). I consider it an unbiased review. Suttie 2004 includes the unpublished studies on sports performance. I consider it biased in favor of concluding there are benefits.
A point that needs to be made is the fallacy of insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) being the active ingredient in deer antler velvet dietary supplements (powder, drops, spray). First, DAV is pasteurized, which would inactivate this protein hormone. Second, oral consumption of IGF-1 is nonsensical, as the protein cannot be absorbed intact. There is a FDA-approved indication for IGF-1 as an injected drug. Not oral. David notMD ( talk) 14:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
1. Gilbey A, Perezgonzalez JD. Health benefits of deer and elk velvet antler supplements: a systematic review of randomised controlled studies. N Z Med J 2012;125(1367):80-86.
2. Allen M, Oberle K, et al. A randomized clinical trial of elk velvet antler in rheumatoid arthritis. Biol Res Nurs 2008;9(3):254-261.
3. Syrotuik DG, MacFadyen KL, et al. Effect of elk velvet antler supplementation on the hormonal response to acute and chronic exercise in male and female rowers. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2005g;15(4):366-385.
4. Sleivert G, Burke V, et al. The effects of deer antler velvet extract or powder supplementation on aerobic power, erythropoiesis, and muscular strength and endurance characteristics. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2003;13(3):251-265.
5. Allen M, Oberle K, Grace M, Russell A. Elk velvet antler in rheumatoid arthritis: phase II trial. Biol Res Nurs 2002;3(3):111-118.
6. Broeder CE, et al. New Zealand deer antler velvet and resistance training impact on body composition, aerobic capacity and strength. Med Sci Sports Exercise 2004;36:284–284.
7. Suttie JM, Haines SR. A review of dose levels of deer velvet products in relation to efficacy. AgResearch New Zealand 2004:167-175.
This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page. |
I ask other people who know about this information to correct and share what they know as appropriate. I have begun the process by adding several topics of interest, my own personal interest in making soups with slices. I tried to do this and was continually edit-warred by user ronz.
I came across this page on 9-15-2015 and began adding credible and reliable sources, as well as pictures to assist conveyance of ideas concerning velvet antler and other topics that redirect to this page such as deer antler velvet and deer antler spray. This project became tedious when user ronz began deleting information and sources based upon non-eligible reasons of removal such as self-published works that are highly referenced. Or the FDA website does not meet MEDRS. Or whatever he feels fit to do.
The attention of an responsible administrator is most likely required to ensure that this page is managed correctly as user ronz will most likely delete any relevant and eligible information he see fit. How do we proceed to add information from folks who know about the information and have read the sources and understand the information. Jazzix ( talk) 00:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Proposed Corrections in line with Wikipedia Guidelines: 2015-9-15 1. Update source as reliable: Kamen, Paul and Betty, The Remarkable Healing Power of Velvet Antler, Nutrition Encounter, Novato, California, 2003, p. 12 should be changed to Kamen, Betty Phd and Paul, The Remarkable Healing Power of Velvet Antler, Nutrition Encounter, Novato, California, 2003, p. 12-34 - Betty Kamen is listed on the title as a Phd and her work is a secondary source compiling over 100 references. A Phd publishing a secondary souce is reliable. ronz suggestion that a self-published work by a Phd is not acceptable in invalid according to wiki guidelines found here /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources
2. Update source as reliable: (2015-9-15) Batchelder, Helen J., Velvet Antler: A Literature Review, p.1 fda.gov - this document admits from a secondary source the recognition of velvet antler as a dietary supplement. It is easy to see the supplement company's name and the word supplement is used several times through the docket. As the FDA only accepts heavily filtered peer reviewed scientific clinical studies as results for acceptance this is a given with this resource to the reliability of the information. Once again, a government organization has published a secondary filtered information on the website for recognition of the velvet antler as a dietary supplement. ronz suggestion that the FDA as a source concerning the status of dietary supplement is invalid concerning the source and ronz's suggestion that the FDA is not a reliable source is invalid according to wiki guidelines for acceptance. In fact, it would be very hard to find a better source if one existed. Jazzix ( talk) 04:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
ronz does not follow wiki guidelines of acceptance and ignores what is considered reliable sources, it is hard to imagine that this user has been on wiki for ten years. ronz has not read the Kamen book nor does he understand the what the FDA is 67.204.178.51 ( talk) 16:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
sorry about the failure to login, to confirm it was me. anything published on the FDA website is managed and run by the FDA - your argument against the FDA is not cogent. In fact you attempted to use the FDA source on this talk page below to disprove my FDA source - ?. The same for Kamen, your argument is not cogent, because the information cited on the wiki page is not about herself so your above link is incorrect. Kamen is a PhD she is a noted expert in her field and has achieved peer recognition. Her PhD is in Nutrition. Not only does she claim to be an expert, her peers do also make such a claim. We are not using her doctorate, but a compiled secondary source that is published, which in itself is required for verifiability. Her data is compiled from over 100 references to come to the expert conclusions in her book and cited upon this page. ronz please apply the correct criteria is determining the reliability of a source. For example: nothing in her book is original research conducted by her. Everything in her book is verifiable by referencing the sources she used in the compiling of her work. Her work also hold a neutral point of view as her book is education material about velvet antler. As your argument against reliability fails I will go ahead and update the wiki entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jazzix ( talk • contribs) 18:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC) Adding to verifiability of Kamen source, the foreword of her book is written by a peer Michael E. Rosenbaum, MD. In addition she has written over 500 health reports and appear in news media as a verifiable source, including the New York Times and Time Magazine. Jazzix ( talk) 18:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
ronz continues to ignore relevant verifiable information and continues to question and edit-war with jazzix over the reliability of sources within wiki guidelines. In the past couple days ronz has deleted jazzix's edits disregarding verifiability of information and relevance to subject. ronz appears to have personal dispute with information supplied by jazzix. jazzix will discontinue all editing until consensus is reached with wiki community Jazzix ( talk) 19:35, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
This one is a close call, but I think I have to agree with Jazzix on this one. Although WP:PRIMARY says to use care with primary sources, it doesn't outright prohibit them. At the same time, though, both of you appear to be edit-warring, so I would be careful with that; also, Jazzix, you were instructed to focus on content instead of denouncing Ronz, but then you just did it again anyway, so that isn't a good idea either. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 00:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC) |
While researching the above, I found: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/.../CyberLetters/ucm056971.pdf
So the product can only be sold as a supplement, with no medical claims whatsoever. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
sorry about that, this section will be a good place to add further information, well done on finding more information ronz Jazzix ( talk) 16:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC) we should be able to find many more sources and may want to move this citing to a section about deer antler spray and igf-1 in the future Jazzix ( talk) 17:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Although the FDA CyberLetter above is relevant to the page, the above is not necessary as no sources substantiate and structure/function claims for antler velvet, previous FDA Batchelder source is a COI being published on a supplement company website shown above in third party. I do suggest that FDA CyberLetter be incorporated into entry concerning controversies and supplement companies making false claims. I found this source to add concerning fda warnings and velvet antler http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2001/velvet_antler.pdf. Jazzix ( talk) 07:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
I have read many new sources today and cited the New Zealand and Australian deer industry. It appears the largest size is 12kg. Even the wiki page for Red Deer makes this claim. I am removing the following information from this entry - "Exceptionally large elk and red deer antler pairs can weigh up to 50 lb (22.6 kg)"
If anyone finds a legitimate source making this claim please replace. Jazzix ( talk) 03:41, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
This statement appears incorrect with new research added to page - "Velvet antler grows rapidly during the spring season up until summer when they have reached maximum growth and calcified." As does the following information - "This timeframe is about March or April until July in the Northern Hemisphere.[1][not in citation given] These correlates to about September or October until January in the Southern Hemisphere." It is imprecise.
http://www.deerfarming.com.au/DFH/DFH18-Velvet_Antler.pdf http://www.deernz.org/deerhub/deer-information/antlers/velvet/removal-0#.VfrVJcKh2M9
This section should probably be expanded, but from what I read these statements were incorrect to be on the page, I am not the expert to apply them though, so I removed them. Jazzix ( talk) 15:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
It appear this source is much better concerning the news articles that are referenced concerning SWATS - http://www.usada.org/supplement-shutdown-sos-winter-2013-2014/
This article is really good as it seems to expose the controversy down to their methods, they are talking about a liposome. /info/en/?search=Liposome - this is apparently why certain professional sports players were having issues with drug tests. Check this out - http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201106/thepostgame-exclusive-nfl-fullback-heath-evans-says-he-uses-controversial-swats-spra Jazzix ( talk) 17:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
very good source - http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2013/11/10/how-to-get-snake-oil-from-deer-antlers-and-make-millions/ Jazzix ( talk) 00:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC) thinking of using above source instead of - http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-deer-antler-spray-2013-5 - as it is better and without direct reference to articles about a supplement company. forbes source has less bias Jazzix ( talk) 00:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC) actually this yahoo article is best for replacing biased source - http://sports.yahoo.com/news/golf--deer-antler-spray-gets-a-pass--so-now-what--004821402.html Jazzix ( talk) 00:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
The business insider release reads like a press release for a supplement company. Removing. Jazzix ( talk) 18:56, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
This statement is a MEDRS conflict - "the blood piece is used to treat arthritis and related disorders". These sources do note that arthritis is a structure/function benefit known as "bone and joint health". This wording from these sources will satisfy any MEDRS conflict with fda regulations. Making changes. Jazzix ( talk) 18:42, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
Added Gilbey 2012 review to article. David notMD ( talk) 09:53, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
although for osteoarthritis the findings may have some promise.28 August 2017
This quote is found nowhere on the cited page - "Claims that velvet antler supplements have beneficial effects for any human condition are not currently supported by sound clinical data from human trials." Perhaps Ronz and Jytdog are referring to the correct quotation "Claims made for velvet antler supplements do not appear to be based upon rigorous research from human trials, although for osteoarthritis the findings may have some promise." Proper quote and source is MEDRS and continues to be added per Ronz and Jytdog
"Claims that velvet antler supplements have beneficial effects for any human condition are not currently supported by sound clinical data from human trials."
1st - Above the author claims that "any" human condition from a seven trials that did not study every human condition. Conjecture as the review did not cover every human condition and indeed really stupid looking since it says seven clinical trials prior to statement. Duh! 2nd - The rest of the phrase is a broad generalization of all clinical data, when the review only covered data from seven clinical trail "are not currently supported by sound clinical data from human trials." Any retard knows that seven clinical trials cannot supply such a statement. 3rd - This is one of the statements that actually says nothing. For example: "we proved nothing". How can one prove nothing? Only the dumb and ignorant can't see this, yet it finds its way upon a supposed educational page.
Since July I have offered logical and coherent statements that have been ignored or designated COI as if I have some other agenda than garbage of stupid stuff on wiki pages. One is the abstract from the conclusion the other is a paraphrase that better quotes the authors intentions and conclusions. So what is? Are Admin and Editors of Wiki brain-damaged individuals or are they capable of intelligent though? We all know Ronz, Jytdog, Roxy the dog, do not understand logical statements by their failure to recognize improper statements made by others. If you get me banned you guys know you are brain damaged. If I am not you know the state of affairs is much worse.
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To add to this article: powdered velvet antler is used in combination with raw lacquer in the finishing of guqin, a stringed musical instrument that is produced in China. 98.123.38.211 ( talk) 14:00, 14 April 2024 (UTC)