Ukrainian language was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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Ukrainian language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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The discussion below pertains to the following three statements:
References
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Crash48 ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
@ Crash48: Our articles should primarily be based on secondary sources, see WP:PSTS. The fact that a certain author used a certain name for a language (in this case, the name "Little Russian"), normally becomes relevant only if a secondary source sees this as relevant. The second problem with your edits is that the whole concept of "Little Russia" was used by the imperialist / colonialist government in St.Petersburg with the intention to suppress Ukrainian identity (see e.g. Serhii Plokhy, The Gates of Europe, Andreas Kappeler, Kleine Geschichte der Ukraine, Timothy Snyder's 2022 lectures on Ukrainian history (available on YouTube)). We cannot just mention the name "Little Russia" without discussing the problems of that concept. Rsk6400 ( talk) 13:00, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.I understand this as "secondary, preferably academic" sources.
References
instead, the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russianbecause if we write that the language was not called Ukrainian before a certain date, the reader would most likely want to know *how* it was called. I don't think that the examples given afterwards contribute to the section and would agree with their removal. Alaexis ¿question? 20:28, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
but the source says more (e.g. that it was used by the "Russian Empire")-- no it doesn't; and you have abundant evidence of its use by Austro-Hungarian Ukrainians as well, which you consistently choose to disregard.
making that statement in a sentence starting with the year 1187 gives the wrong impression-- do feel free to drop the reference to the year 1187 if you wish; the subsection's topic is the development of the language after the fall of the Kingdom of Ruthenia, anyway.
why that ?-- because at the top of this talk page, all these WikiProjects are listed as being interested in this article.
The fact that Ukrainians used a name...-- I've now added quotes from [2] (not directly related to the name of the language) into Little Russian identity#Russian Empire; please see these quotes, and optionally the whole source article, before you carry on pushing your "imposed by the colonial power" agenda. Crash48 ( talk) 11:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
Russian dialects fall into two main divisions — Great (Velikorusskij), including White (Belorusskij) Russian, and Little Russian (Malorusskij). The latter is spoken in a belt reaching from Galicia and the Northern Carpathians (see Ruthenians) through Podolia and Volhynia and the governments of Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava, Kharkov and the southern part of Voronezh to the Don and the Kuban upon which the Dnepr Cossacks were settled.and further that
Ruthenians [is] a name applied to those of the Little Russians who are Austrian subjects.) Literally any sources from before the 1860s would do; whereas you seemingly oppose citing any primary sources howsoever selected, so let me reiterate that WP:PSTS explicitly allows the use of primary sources in support of statements of facts.
I haven’t had the time to unravel the discussion and article history yet. But I suspect the article needs more from secondary sources about the colonial terminology and colonial repression of Ukrainian language and national status, not less. Yes, there are academic articles about when and how some terminology was used, but making their point generally depends on statements supported by many paragraphs of background and context.
Giving examples from primary sources and implying some conclusions from them is a very poor way to try make a point in an encyclopedia article. We don’t pointedly drop examples into other language articles about who historically used names like Indian, Eskimo, Negro, or N***** to normalize them, so we shouldn’t do the same with Little Russian, Malo-Russian, Khokhol, Ukrop, or Bandera, either. Little Russian is currently a weapon wielded directly in a genocidal war by its main instigator. Whatever its historical status has been, emphasizing that without context is normalizing it and perpetuating colonial violence. — Michael Z. 16:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
If we’re going to use the term-- no we're not: I had already pointed you to the revision being discussed, which doesn't use the term. Same as the article on Christie's novel doesn't use the N-word (to refer to black people), but mentions it a lot (to refer to its uses by Christie).
Not shuffle it aside into a different subject, which is not-- are you seriously suggesting that Little Russian isn't the subject of Little Russian identity (despite appearing right in its title) but is the subject of Ukrainian language (despite being disused as the language's name for about a century now)? Crash48 ( talk) 06:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
By way of example, some may find the original name of And Then There Were None disagreeable; but nevertheless, the name features prominently in the article, without an explanation of "the whole concept" that necessitated the change of name.
There are plenty of other endonyms for the historic forms of this language focusing just on the imperialist term is concerning— blindlynx 20:12, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
Crash48, you took this discussion to three different WikiProjects, and nobody supported your idea to use 19th-century sources for the usage of "Little Russian". I think now is really the time to
drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. On the other hand, nobody was opposed to mentioning that name, provided some context regarding the colonial circumstances is given. I'd suggest something like After the incorporation of Left-bank Ukraine during the 18th century, the imperial centre used the name "Little Russia" for Ukraine and "Little Russian" for its language in order to convey the notion of a fundamental unity between "Great Russians" and "Little Russians".
The problem is, that I only vaguely remember where I read that, so I can't give the reference now.
Rsk6400 (
talk) 05:07, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Please note that I just added the name Little Russian to the article, hoping to put it in the correct context. Rsk6400 ( talk) 14:32, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
parts of Ukraine east of the Dnipro river gradually lost their autonomy-- and so did the parts to the west of Dnipro, too;
The Russian Empire used the name-- the empire was only established a century later, but the name was already in use in the 17th century and even earlier, in Russia as well as outside. I leave it to you to refine your phrasing. Crash48 ( talk) 11:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I am declining your request for a third opinion because there are too many people involved already. You could flag the article with ""expert"" (published with {{ }} or either side of the term) to see if there is another editor who is an expert on this subject would could advise. My general thought is that providing examples of popular authors or popular books that were published using the phrase "Little Russian" helps describe the extent of this aspect of colonialism. If these books and authors were not popular, then such listings are trivial. Citing these publications directly is allowable in this situation. Rublamb ( talk) 15:33, 21 September 2023 (UTC) |
A draft for a section on the historic names of the language is created at Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Crash48. Requesting comments on whether to add such a section. Crash48 ( talk) 07:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
implies that it was not substantially used outside the empireis the definition of WP:SYNTH. Thank you for making so obvious which party has to rely on synth for statements which they cannot find in any RS. Crash48 ( talk) 17:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
The Malo, or Little Russian language, as it ought properly to be called, the term Ruthenish being without meaning -is spoken by upwards of sixteen millions of people, scattered over Southern Russia, Galicia, Bukovina and part of Northeastern Hungary.Britannica 1911:
Dialects. — Russian dialects fall into two main divisions — Great (Velikorusskij), including White (Belorusskij) Russian, and Little Russian (Malorusskij). The latter is spoken in a belt reaching from Galicia and the Northern Carpathians (see Ruthenians) through Podolia and Volhynia and the governments of Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava, Kharkov and the southern part of Voronezh to the Don and the Kuban upon which the Dnepr Cossacks were settled.These are two secondary RS, British in origin, asserting that the language of Ukrainians both inside and outside the Russian Empire was known as Little Russian at the time. You're still welcome to present any source asserting the opposite. -- Crash48 ( talk) 08:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
The Russian language <...> is sometimes called Great Russian to distinguish it from the closely related Byelorussian or White Russian and "Little Russian" (an obsolescent term) or Ukrainian, with which it makes up the eastern branch of the Slavonic languages. Does this citation resolve the question of whether the term Little Russian was "tied" to the Russian Empire, or do you want me to play WP:FETCH? -- Crash48 ( talk) 14:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Multiple editors expressed allegations that the draft is WP:SYNTH. None of these editors is willing to specify any particular conclusion which is implied by the draft but not explicitly stated in any of the cited sources, which is the definition of WP:SYNTH. Any further discussion with these editors is impossible until they either substantiate or strike out their allegations. -- Crash48 ( talk) 12:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add the Brazilian city Prudentopolis as a place where Ukrainian language is official, because it was officialized some years ago. Sources:
http://web.archive.org/web/20220225004703/http://www.cmprudentopolis.pr.gov.br/index.php?sessao=a8e910730f0da8&id=59452 http://web.archive.org/web/20220225004645/https://nossagente.info/2021/10/06/lingua-ucraniana-e-oficialmente-a-lingua-co-oficial-do-municipio-de-prudentopolis/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220225232953/https://redesuldenoticias.com.br/noticias/lingua-ucraniana-e-oficializada-nessa-quarta-20-em-prudentopolis/ Mirandi7777 ( talk) 20:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Especially in the Ukrainian_language#Soviet_era section. I did not remove it only because the provided info seems to be correct in general. But perhaps we need a separate page named History of Ukrainian language. That's a shame we do not have it. Instead we have Chronology of Ukrainian language suppression. My very best wishes ( talk) 23:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
I have vectorised and turned the current map into an svg. Could someone with editing privileges please change the current map to this one?
Thanks. Mnohohrishnyi ( talk) 16:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi, please don't revert my edits without talking first. I am tackling the citations and the duplinks and the individual cns on this dreadful article are not needed - I can see where the text needs to be cited. Amitchell125 ( talk) 19:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Ukrainian language was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ukrainian language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5Auto-archiving period: 3 months |
This
level-4 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The discussion below pertains to the following three statements:
References
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Crash48 ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
@ Crash48: Our articles should primarily be based on secondary sources, see WP:PSTS. The fact that a certain author used a certain name for a language (in this case, the name "Little Russian"), normally becomes relevant only if a secondary source sees this as relevant. The second problem with your edits is that the whole concept of "Little Russia" was used by the imperialist / colonialist government in St.Petersburg with the intention to suppress Ukrainian identity (see e.g. Serhii Plokhy, The Gates of Europe, Andreas Kappeler, Kleine Geschichte der Ukraine, Timothy Snyder's 2022 lectures on Ukrainian history (available on YouTube)). We cannot just mention the name "Little Russia" without discussing the problems of that concept. Rsk6400 ( talk) 13:00, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources.I understand this as "secondary, preferably academic" sources.
References
instead, the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russianbecause if we write that the language was not called Ukrainian before a certain date, the reader would most likely want to know *how* it was called. I don't think that the examples given afterwards contribute to the section and would agree with their removal. Alaexis ¿question? 20:28, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
but the source says more (e.g. that it was used by the "Russian Empire")-- no it doesn't; and you have abundant evidence of its use by Austro-Hungarian Ukrainians as well, which you consistently choose to disregard.
making that statement in a sentence starting with the year 1187 gives the wrong impression-- do feel free to drop the reference to the year 1187 if you wish; the subsection's topic is the development of the language after the fall of the Kingdom of Ruthenia, anyway.
why that ?-- because at the top of this talk page, all these WikiProjects are listed as being interested in this article.
The fact that Ukrainians used a name...-- I've now added quotes from [2] (not directly related to the name of the language) into Little Russian identity#Russian Empire; please see these quotes, and optionally the whole source article, before you carry on pushing your "imposed by the colonial power" agenda. Crash48 ( talk) 11:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
Russian dialects fall into two main divisions — Great (Velikorusskij), including White (Belorusskij) Russian, and Little Russian (Malorusskij). The latter is spoken in a belt reaching from Galicia and the Northern Carpathians (see Ruthenians) through Podolia and Volhynia and the governments of Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava, Kharkov and the southern part of Voronezh to the Don and the Kuban upon which the Dnepr Cossacks were settled.and further that
Ruthenians [is] a name applied to those of the Little Russians who are Austrian subjects.) Literally any sources from before the 1860s would do; whereas you seemingly oppose citing any primary sources howsoever selected, so let me reiterate that WP:PSTS explicitly allows the use of primary sources in support of statements of facts.
I haven’t had the time to unravel the discussion and article history yet. But I suspect the article needs more from secondary sources about the colonial terminology and colonial repression of Ukrainian language and national status, not less. Yes, there are academic articles about when and how some terminology was used, but making their point generally depends on statements supported by many paragraphs of background and context.
Giving examples from primary sources and implying some conclusions from them is a very poor way to try make a point in an encyclopedia article. We don’t pointedly drop examples into other language articles about who historically used names like Indian, Eskimo, Negro, or N***** to normalize them, so we shouldn’t do the same with Little Russian, Malo-Russian, Khokhol, Ukrop, or Bandera, either. Little Russian is currently a weapon wielded directly in a genocidal war by its main instigator. Whatever its historical status has been, emphasizing that without context is normalizing it and perpetuating colonial violence. — Michael Z. 16:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
If we’re going to use the term-- no we're not: I had already pointed you to the revision being discussed, which doesn't use the term. Same as the article on Christie's novel doesn't use the N-word (to refer to black people), but mentions it a lot (to refer to its uses by Christie).
Not shuffle it aside into a different subject, which is not-- are you seriously suggesting that Little Russian isn't the subject of Little Russian identity (despite appearing right in its title) but is the subject of Ukrainian language (despite being disused as the language's name for about a century now)? Crash48 ( talk) 06:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
By way of example, some may find the original name of And Then There Were None disagreeable; but nevertheless, the name features prominently in the article, without an explanation of "the whole concept" that necessitated the change of name.
There are plenty of other endonyms for the historic forms of this language focusing just on the imperialist term is concerning— blindlynx 20:12, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
Crash48, you took this discussion to three different WikiProjects, and nobody supported your idea to use 19th-century sources for the usage of "Little Russian". I think now is really the time to
drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. On the other hand, nobody was opposed to mentioning that name, provided some context regarding the colonial circumstances is given. I'd suggest something like After the incorporation of Left-bank Ukraine during the 18th century, the imperial centre used the name "Little Russia" for Ukraine and "Little Russian" for its language in order to convey the notion of a fundamental unity between "Great Russians" and "Little Russians".
The problem is, that I only vaguely remember where I read that, so I can't give the reference now.
Rsk6400 (
talk) 05:07, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Please note that I just added the name Little Russian to the article, hoping to put it in the correct context. Rsk6400 ( talk) 14:32, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
parts of Ukraine east of the Dnipro river gradually lost their autonomy-- and so did the parts to the west of Dnipro, too;
The Russian Empire used the name-- the empire was only established a century later, but the name was already in use in the 17th century and even earlier, in Russia as well as outside. I leave it to you to refine your phrasing. Crash48 ( talk) 11:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
I am declining your request for a third opinion because there are too many people involved already. You could flag the article with ""expert"" (published with {{ }} or either side of the term) to see if there is another editor who is an expert on this subject would could advise. My general thought is that providing examples of popular authors or popular books that were published using the phrase "Little Russian" helps describe the extent of this aspect of colonialism. If these books and authors were not popular, then such listings are trivial. Citing these publications directly is allowable in this situation. Rublamb ( talk) 15:33, 21 September 2023 (UTC) |
A draft for a section on the historic names of the language is created at Draft:Ukrainian language/Names/Crash48. Requesting comments on whether to add such a section. Crash48 ( talk) 07:27, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
implies that it was not substantially used outside the empireis the definition of WP:SYNTH. Thank you for making so obvious which party has to rely on synth for statements which they cannot find in any RS. Crash48 ( talk) 17:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
The Malo, or Little Russian language, as it ought properly to be called, the term Ruthenish being without meaning -is spoken by upwards of sixteen millions of people, scattered over Southern Russia, Galicia, Bukovina and part of Northeastern Hungary.Britannica 1911:
Dialects. — Russian dialects fall into two main divisions — Great (Velikorusskij), including White (Belorusskij) Russian, and Little Russian (Malorusskij). The latter is spoken in a belt reaching from Galicia and the Northern Carpathians (see Ruthenians) through Podolia and Volhynia and the governments of Kiev, Chernigov, Poltava, Kharkov and the southern part of Voronezh to the Don and the Kuban upon which the Dnepr Cossacks were settled.These are two secondary RS, British in origin, asserting that the language of Ukrainians both inside and outside the Russian Empire was known as Little Russian at the time. You're still welcome to present any source asserting the opposite. -- Crash48 ( talk) 08:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
The Russian language <...> is sometimes called Great Russian to distinguish it from the closely related Byelorussian or White Russian and "Little Russian" (an obsolescent term) or Ukrainian, with which it makes up the eastern branch of the Slavonic languages. Does this citation resolve the question of whether the term Little Russian was "tied" to the Russian Empire, or do you want me to play WP:FETCH? -- Crash48 ( talk) 14:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Multiple editors expressed allegations that the draft is WP:SYNTH. None of these editors is willing to specify any particular conclusion which is implied by the draft but not explicitly stated in any of the cited sources, which is the definition of WP:SYNTH. Any further discussion with these editors is impossible until they either substantiate or strike out their allegations. -- Crash48 ( talk) 12:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add the Brazilian city Prudentopolis as a place where Ukrainian language is official, because it was officialized some years ago. Sources:
http://web.archive.org/web/20220225004703/http://www.cmprudentopolis.pr.gov.br/index.php?sessao=a8e910730f0da8&id=59452 http://web.archive.org/web/20220225004645/https://nossagente.info/2021/10/06/lingua-ucraniana-e-oficialmente-a-lingua-co-oficial-do-municipio-de-prudentopolis/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220225232953/https://redesuldenoticias.com.br/noticias/lingua-ucraniana-e-oficializada-nessa-quarta-20-em-prudentopolis/ Mirandi7777 ( talk) 20:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Especially in the Ukrainian_language#Soviet_era section. I did not remove it only because the provided info seems to be correct in general. But perhaps we need a separate page named History of Ukrainian language. That's a shame we do not have it. Instead we have Chronology of Ukrainian language suppression. My very best wishes ( talk) 23:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
I have vectorised and turned the current map into an svg. Could someone with editing privileges please change the current map to this one?
Thanks. Mnohohrishnyi ( talk) 16:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi, please don't revert my edits without talking first. I am tackling the citations and the duplinks and the individual cns on this dreadful article are not needed - I can see where the text needs to be cited. Amitchell125 ( talk) 19:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)