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This book is a possible source for use in other articles, but I don't think it deserves an article of its own. I'll hold off nominating it for anything, though, until I see what others have to say about it. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 17:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
{{hangon}}
I've proposed merging this article to Holocaust#Who knew about the killings? There is no indication in this article as to why this book is notable. The subject of the book is already covered in the Holocaust article, and I see no reason to keep a separate article on this book. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 12:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the whole concept of the abandonment of the Jews should be an independent article, but the book, perhaps not. I will put up a mergeto flag this discussion. Valley2city 23:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Since this is an article about the book, not the subject, the arguments in rebuttal to the books ideas must be sourced to comments made against the book itself, not arguments we can find refuting any claims. i think most of the material in the arguments sections should be removed, and replaced with ONLY comments directed at the book itself. i removed a summary of arguments that said more could have been done. While its tempting to write such words here, we cannot ourselves weigh in on this, or any other issue. the section i edited this out of, now called "Impossibility of greater effective rescue", is still probably original research, as i dont know if the authorities cited have addressed this book. If its agreed that this is an important book in the argument of the greater issues involved, this article needs improvement beyond what i can likely dedicate time to, unless someone pays me:) Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 16:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
The "Counter-Arguments" topic of the article has been flagged by two Wikipedia notifications:
Question book-new.svg This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2010)
This section may stray from the topic of the article. Please help improve this section or discuss this issue on the talk page. (October 2010)
Although all are entitled to their own interpretation of facts, the rules in Wikipedia are Neutral Point of View, Context based on the highest-quality references. Wikipedia bans 'Original Research' where 'editors' attempt to editorially insert their own biased point of view without adequate references and/or context.. This article, IMHO (and the judgement of other editors -- see below) is greatly flawed by the efforts of some editors to rebut Wyman's material, while at the same time misrepresenting the facts and positions he's presented in a very influential and highly-respected book. I'm not suggesting we delete references to Wyman's critics (eg Rubinstein), just that we establish proper context and don't misrepresent the references. Where, for instance, does Kranzler *ever* criticize or disagree with the material in "Abandonment of the Jews"? Yet the manner in which Kranzler's material is presented in this article would improperly and inaccurately give the impression that these two scholars disagree with each other on points about which they actually agree, or that Wyman did not recognize or document the actions of 'Rescuers' (the principal subject matter of Kranzler's work). In fact, Kranzler eloquently documented the rarity of 'Rescue' and prized the 'Rescuers' as much for their jewel-like scarcity as for their virtues, ethics, and courage. Both Wyman and Kranzler (and scores of other historians, including Weinstein, et al) recognize and agree on the culpability and consequent loss of life that are the responsibilities of the British Foreign Office (and other British executives) -- primarily for their abandonment of the Mandatory responsibility to keep a Palestinian Jewish Homeland open as a refuge for endangered Jews (a point made repeatedly by people like WInston Churchill) -- as well as the US State Dept., President Roosevelt, and a number of other salient issues. Nevertheless, the naive reader would be misled by this article (as it is currently written) into thinking that there is much more controversy to Wyman's positions than there actually is. This situation should be remedied ASAPractical. I propose we clean up this section. It lacks proper context, and is somewhat misleading about the nature of and quality of the scholarly criticism of Wyman's work. It also acts as a 'red herring' insofar as it covers 'rescue' operations that were orthogonal to the subject-matter covered by Wyman, and few of the 'Counter-Argument' points have any relevance to Wyman's arguments, positions, or documentation. It's as if the editor is saying 'Some people saved Jews, therefore the Jews weren't abandoned; case closed.' That sort of 'Original Research' does not belong in a Wikipedia article. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve this article, or at least to remedy the obviously misleading statements? Ronreisman ( talk) 19:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
This section should probably be trimmed down to examples actually discussed in the book. Otherwise it's a fork to Rescue of Jews during the Holocaust. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:05, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This book is a possible source for use in other articles, but I don't think it deserves an article of its own. I'll hold off nominating it for anything, though, until I see what others have to say about it. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 17:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
{{hangon}}
I've proposed merging this article to Holocaust#Who knew about the killings? There is no indication in this article as to why this book is notable. The subject of the book is already covered in the Holocaust article, and I see no reason to keep a separate article on this book. -- Donald Albury( Talk) 12:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the whole concept of the abandonment of the Jews should be an independent article, but the book, perhaps not. I will put up a mergeto flag this discussion. Valley2city 23:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Since this is an article about the book, not the subject, the arguments in rebuttal to the books ideas must be sourced to comments made against the book itself, not arguments we can find refuting any claims. i think most of the material in the arguments sections should be removed, and replaced with ONLY comments directed at the book itself. i removed a summary of arguments that said more could have been done. While its tempting to write such words here, we cannot ourselves weigh in on this, or any other issue. the section i edited this out of, now called "Impossibility of greater effective rescue", is still probably original research, as i dont know if the authorities cited have addressed this book. If its agreed that this is an important book in the argument of the greater issues involved, this article needs improvement beyond what i can likely dedicate time to, unless someone pays me:) Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 16:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
The "Counter-Arguments" topic of the article has been flagged by two Wikipedia notifications:
Question book-new.svg This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2010)
This section may stray from the topic of the article. Please help improve this section or discuss this issue on the talk page. (October 2010)
Although all are entitled to their own interpretation of facts, the rules in Wikipedia are Neutral Point of View, Context based on the highest-quality references. Wikipedia bans 'Original Research' where 'editors' attempt to editorially insert their own biased point of view without adequate references and/or context.. This article, IMHO (and the judgement of other editors -- see below) is greatly flawed by the efforts of some editors to rebut Wyman's material, while at the same time misrepresenting the facts and positions he's presented in a very influential and highly-respected book. I'm not suggesting we delete references to Wyman's critics (eg Rubinstein), just that we establish proper context and don't misrepresent the references. Where, for instance, does Kranzler *ever* criticize or disagree with the material in "Abandonment of the Jews"? Yet the manner in which Kranzler's material is presented in this article would improperly and inaccurately give the impression that these two scholars disagree with each other on points about which they actually agree, or that Wyman did not recognize or document the actions of 'Rescuers' (the principal subject matter of Kranzler's work). In fact, Kranzler eloquently documented the rarity of 'Rescue' and prized the 'Rescuers' as much for their jewel-like scarcity as for their virtues, ethics, and courage. Both Wyman and Kranzler (and scores of other historians, including Weinstein, et al) recognize and agree on the culpability and consequent loss of life that are the responsibilities of the British Foreign Office (and other British executives) -- primarily for their abandonment of the Mandatory responsibility to keep a Palestinian Jewish Homeland open as a refuge for endangered Jews (a point made repeatedly by people like WInston Churchill) -- as well as the US State Dept., President Roosevelt, and a number of other salient issues. Nevertheless, the naive reader would be misled by this article (as it is currently written) into thinking that there is much more controversy to Wyman's positions than there actually is. This situation should be remedied ASAPractical. I propose we clean up this section. It lacks proper context, and is somewhat misleading about the nature of and quality of the scholarly criticism of Wyman's work. It also acts as a 'red herring' insofar as it covers 'rescue' operations that were orthogonal to the subject-matter covered by Wyman, and few of the 'Counter-Argument' points have any relevance to Wyman's arguments, positions, or documentation. It's as if the editor is saying 'Some people saved Jews, therefore the Jews weren't abandoned; case closed.' That sort of 'Original Research' does not belong in a Wikipedia article. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve this article, or at least to remedy the obviously misleading statements? Ronreisman ( talk) 19:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
This section should probably be trimmed down to examples actually discussed in the book. Otherwise it's a fork to Rescue of Jews during the Holocaust. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:05, 11 March 2023 (UTC)