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"The Sub-Saharan region is also known as Black Africa,[4] in reference to its many black populations. Notably, commentators in Arabic in the medieval period used a similar term, bilâd as-sûdân, which literally translates to "land of the blacks" in contrast with populations of the classic Islamic world.[5]"
This introductory text defines sub-Saharan Africa in relation to the Middle East only, which strikes me as racist. This paragraph seems about differentiating sub-Saharan Africa from the Middle East and North Africa, which is not what this section should be about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miss Archie ( talk • contribs) 08:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
RACIST?!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.37.14.90 ( talk) 12:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
"The Horn of Africa and large parts of Sudan are geographically part of sub-Saharan Africa, but nevertheless show strong Middle Eastern influence and are also part of the Arab world.[3]"
The source for this quote is an Arabic-language website from the League of Arab states. Of the four nations of the Horn, two, Djibouti and Somalia, are members of the Arab League. Eritrea is an observer, and Ethiopia is not. Eritrea, Djibouti, and Somalia have Arabic as an official language, but not as the only language. Most people in Eritrea are Triginya. Most people in Djibouti are Somali and Afar. I just don't see how the Horn can accurately be called "part of the Arab world," especially give that the vast majority of residents of the Horn (75 million out of 90 million total) are Ethiopian. This is also inconsistent with the Wikipedia entry on the Horn of Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miss Archie ( talk • contribs) 11:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Well it is true which brings us to the BS that is "sub-Saharan" Africa. Many people in the North Africa are not arabs nor true native Africans and people in "sub-Saharan" Africa are Arabian in origin not to mention European. To me, if you leave out the whites in the south knowing they are invaders, you should do the same for the north and call it Africa. It is political and racial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.86 ( talk) 00:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I did not say Semitic and Arab are interchangeable, but quite clearly that the early Jews were Arabs and vice versa (which is true). And I only brought this up because you insisted on taking this conversation in some tangential direction (i.e. the Yoruba et al.) that has precious little if anything to do with the actual edits in the article. Moving on, I did not add one source but five sources indicating that much of the Horn is part of the Arab world. Though I appreciate your permission, I don't need to fish for other sources either because the ones I've already cited cover this, especially with regard to Somalia and Djibouti. It's also not just the Arab League which establishes these territories as part of the Arab world. Arabs themselves have already done so and repeatedly starting centuries back, such as the 10th century geographer Ibn Hawqal's map of Diyar al-Arab ("The Arab Homeland") which outlines the Arab world & includes the Somali-inhabited territories of the Horn.
Also, the Arab League is not just an ordinary intergovernmental organization and nothing more like the African Union, for example. It is a political, cultural and social organization created by Arabs specifically and exclusively for Arab states to further Arab interests. Here is the Arab League's mission statement...
Serve the common good of all Arab countries, ensure better conditions for all Arab countries, guarantee the future of all Arab countries and fulfill the hopes and expectations of all Arab countries.
Here is a concise summary of what the Arab League is, from Financial Markets and Institutions in the Arab Economy...
The Arab nation was started to unify it selves under one Arab state since the end of the Second World War. Thus they established what is known as the Arab states League. It is an association that is supposed to harmonize the political, cultural, and economic segments of the Arab nation. The Arab League was established under the notion that of being the first step to the Arab economic and political ultimate unity as well as to settle disputes among its members.
In other words, membership in the Arab League presupposes that a nation is already a part of the Arab world; it doesn't create it from scratch.
As for Eritrea, besides the fact that it is an observer in the Arab League and is reportedly scheduled to become the League's next full-fledged member, its affiliation with the Arab world is well known. Examples...
Like I said, sources for these statements are not difficult to find. I also noticed you again altered the statement that the Horn of Africa is predominantly Muslim despite what the sources state. Unfortunately, this too is already covered in the references: "Men and women mix freely inside the EPLF - an astonishing phenomenon in the predominantly Muslim Horn of Africa" (The Middle East, nos. 135-145, (IC Publications ltd.: 1985), p.13). In future, please try and adhere to that WP:VER directive cited above, even if what the reliable sources state are difficult to accept. Soupforone ( talk) 20:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Several Arab states provided assistance to the Eritrean nationalist movement, and Arab publications often referred to Eritrea as part of the Arab world. On the other hand, the two non-Arab states on the Red Sea coast -- Ethiopia and Israel -- became allies out of necessity and encouragement from their common patron, the United States.
The Somaliland forming a part of the Arab world is very clear in Ibn Hawqal's map of Diyar al-Arab (the Arab Homeland).
The Horn is not merely a geographical designation. It is a region with a multitude of physical, social, cultural, economic and other integrating features that distinguish it from adjacent regions. Its sea boundaries are the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. Its inland boundaries are two prominent landmarks -- the East African highlands and the Nile basin -- which also represent social and cultural watersheds separating the people of the Horn from those of adjacent regions.
Syrian maps of the Arab world have always included Eritrea. -- The struggle over Eritrea, 1962-1978: war and revolution in the Horn of Africa (p. 59)
Failing to conquer Ethiopia, the Italians carved out a colony along the Red Sea, called it Eritrea, and governed it as a separate political entity from 1890 until World War II. Even before the Italians gained control over Eritrea it was set apart politically and culturally from Ethiopia. Unlike Ethiopia, which remained primarily a Christian country surrounded by Islamic states, Eritrea retained strong ties with the Arab world, was part of the Ottoman Empire from the sixteenth to the nineteenth century, and was occupied by the Egyptians in the 1860s, shortly before Italy arrived. -- Opportunities and dangers of Soviet-Cuban expansion: toward a pragmatic U.S. policy (p. 28)
The Arab states, seeing Eritrea and its Muslim population as an extension of the Arab world, then sought the establishment of an independent state. -- Eritrea by Randall Fegley (p. xxxviii)
Eritrea is an observer in the Arab League. So is Venezuela. Eritrea was part of the Ottoman Empire. So was Bosnia. So was Turkey for that matter, and it's not Arab. Eritrea had some support for its independence movement from Arab states because of its partly Muslim population. So did Mindanao.
You tried to argue that Eritrea was an Arab state because it was *not* mentioned in a passage that listed Ethiopia and Israel as the non-Arab Red Sea states. After that fell apart, you're conveniently forgetting about it and saying your point was something else - that (at least some sources in) Arab states considered Eritrea to be part of the Arab world, something that nobody is trying to dispute, but that is irrelevant to this article. Please take your stuff to articles where it is relevant. -- JWB ( talk) 05:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Syrian maps of the Arab world have always included Eritrea. -- The struggle over Eritrea, 1962-1978: war and revolution in the Horn of Africa (p. 59)
The Arab states, seeing Eritrea and its Muslim population as an extension of the Arab world, then sought the establishment of an independent state. -- Eritrea by Randall Fegley (p. xxxviii)
Failing to conquer Ethiopia, the Italians carved out a colony along the Red Sea, called it Eritrea, and governed it as a separate political entity from 1890 until World War II. Even before the Italians gained control over Eritrea it was set apart politically and culturally from Ethiopia. Unlike Ethiopia, which remained primarily a Christian country surrounded by Islamic states, Eritrea retained strong ties with the Arab world, was part of the Ottoman Empire from the sixteenth to the nineteenth century, and was occupied by the Egyptians in the 1860s, shortly before Italy arrived. -- Opportunities and dangers of Soviet-Cuban expansion: toward a pragmatic U.S. policy (p. 28)
In reply to a question why Eritrea does not become full member of the Arab League, President Isaias emphasized that the issue of membership in the League is not one of ensuring identity. In view of the ineffectiveness of the League, Eritrea has so far opted to maintain its observer status, he elaborated. The President went on to say that in the event the organization shows dynamism in its work, it is possible that Eritrea could reconsider its membership status.
Nobody is questioning whether the material can be in Wikipedia - the question is whether it is in appropriate or inappropriate places in Wikipedia. This is a short survey article focusing on contemporary and ecological topics.
Google "strong ties with the Arab world" and the first page of hits has Guyana, Latin America, Yugoslavia, South Asia, Spain, Russia, India. Clearly that phrase does not imply a country is "part of the Arab world". If anything, "having strong ties with" sounds like it is referring to an external entity, not an internal part.
"Don't try to make this about the Ottoman Empire" - you brought it up, not me.
Comoros is also a full member of the Arab League. Are you claiming Comoros, Somalia, Djibouti are "Arab states"? Arabic is widely known as a second language but is not a first language. Comoros is culturally like the mainland Swahili coast of East Africa. -- JWB ( talk) 15:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
First of all, FayssalF has blocked Mariam83 ( talk · contribs) indefinitely, and with good cause. See the discussion here. Second, because she's gone, I have unprotected the article. And third, her racist comments are really quite useless, so I think all her comments on this talk page should be removed and not archived. How does this sound? Picaroon (Talk) 04:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Sub-saharan Africa The entire article is written from a "novel narrative or historical interpretation" perspective, with the following source, which is original research and unused and unaccepted by the scholarly community, world and not used in academia [1]. The source is being used to write novel interpretations of labels etc. pertaining to the region and relevant articles, which is unencylopedic and incorrect. The administrators and editors involved have thus far ignored content and focused on disputes. Furthermore, the administrators involved have betrayed an ingrained preference, as most were involved in dispute over content in the first place. They have not commented nor seem interested in the main problem: source and POV/novel interpretation. The article needs to be reviewed by uninvolved parties, and the source looked into. 01:55, 15 July 2007
I did some minor formatting edits to the references and made the countries multicolumn. This should make the article easier on outside reviewers and general readers alike. The links aren't all in the same format, my main concern was getting "http://" off of the visible part of the link. I also changed one dead link to its old copy on The Internet Archive. There's still a lot of work left on the reference formatting but at least now it will be easier to make comments on the quality and appropriateness of the references themselves.
Some initial comments on the references: I am not ready to comment on the quality of the references. When all references supporting a fact come from the same web site, it invites questions of independence. It could be that this web site is a repository of people who coincidently share the same world view, in which case that's okay. On the other hand, they could be colleagues, in which case it's best to pick a single reference. For most things, one reference is all that is needed. The History section needs references. The Economic section needs additional references. Items in the intro usually don't have references because the intro summarizes what comes later. Any items in the intro that are not spelled out and referenced later need references. davidwr ( talk)/( track) 21:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
To anyone who has an interest: The previous article for Kimani Nehusi was speedy deleted for copyright violations. About 8 articles link to it. If someone would write an article about him that meets all of the Wikipedia article criteria, including no copyright violations and WP:BLP that would help the project. Expect challenges based on notability, so be sure to include several independent citations to his notability. If you find you cannot write a quality article that meets Wikipedia standards, please de-link him in the main article. Thanks. davidwr ( talk)/( track) 21:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Black Africa is now a soccer team. The article was created on top of the old redirect, and it took over the old talk page. I cleaned up Talk:Black Africa and fixed up the handful of incoming main-article links so they point to Sub-Saharan Africa instead. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 02:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Henriettaz, an account with only 6 or 7 edits, all today, left me a couple of messages on my talk page. The gist is he's a Wiki newbie and has been editing for only a few weeks. It's his opinion that these articles are "owned" by people who pushing an point of view that is contrary to his. He also believes some of the sources currently used in the article are not high quality. Here's a snippet:
“ | The editors use this original source to redefine the term sub-saharan. In the current version, it is defined as solely a geographic label, which is inaccurate. Sub-saharan Africa is not only geographic, as the Sahara is not inhabited and uninhabitable, but also, and most importantly, racial, cultural and historical. The fact that the editors repeatedly deleted the addition of an anti-afrocentric critique is significant. Why wikipedia has not yet noticed the "novelty" of this interpretation is shocking, and possibly also due to the fact that this same original source is used in all related articles, which redirect to it and vice versa. | ” |
I'm too new to this discussion to comment on the merits of his statements. Any others from outside this discussion should read these comments, and post links to relevant comments that show up on their user pages if they think it would help the overall discussion. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 12:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I've looked over some of the comments for the past few months. It looks like the dispute is over what exactly Sub-Sahara Africa really means and which of the competing definitions should be used in Wikipedia. In other words, which POV world view will dominate an article which as a whole must be
WP:NPOV. In an article like this, NPOV means in part reflecting the points of view who have a point of view,
in accordance with their numbers.
I have a proposal:
Once you've done the research and collectively decided if you want to be more general-interest or more scholarly, then decide what to put into the encyclopedia. This being an encyclopedia, I would personally recommend going the general-audience route, at least to start with. This will probably come down to a vote, but if it is close perhaps a general purpose article with more than the usual amount of scientific discussion would be a good compromise.
No matter which way you go, I recommend acknowledging minority views and giving them due weight without giving them undue weight. Due weight for a fringe opinion shared by half a dozen close-knit academics may be a sentence and a reference. If it's shared by 10% of the academics out there, it may be a couple of paragraphs and several references. If it's 45% of the academic community then it should take almost as much room as the dominant point of view. This is in my opinion one aspect of wiki-neutrality.
There is at least one point of view that some here have called novel and others have all but labeled fringe. I encourage everyone here to set aside their own prejudices and go research secondary sources like book reviews, journal articles that are not primary sources, newspaper articles that are not original research, and the like as well as tertiary sources like encyclopedia articles, and report back here with with what they find. Online sources and sources found at almost every public library are preferred only because everyone here can go read the whole article in context.
As you make your decisions, don't forget the voices of the silenced. It is unfortunate that one user representing a particular POV has been blocked from editing. However, that person's POV is just as valid as everyone else's POV. As you gather your sources, it will be tempting to only report back sources that represent YOUR POV. Please don't do this. You are building an encyclopedia of general knowledge, not an encyclopedia of your world-view. Please bring back all relevant information so it can be digested and discussed.
Once you, as a group, have all the material together, you can decide where to go from there.
Finally, and probably most important swallow your pride, shake hands with your intellectual opponent, and be WP:CIVIL.
If you do this right, it should take at least a few days to gather the data and decide how to proceed, and a few more days or weeks to come up with a revised article. Until then, I recommend that everyone make a gentlemen's agreement to only make grammar and other minor edits. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 01:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The list of recent editors is quite small. It will be that much harder for the remaining editors to make an article that is free of their own personal bias. To aid contacting recent editors, I've put together this list of editors since June 16.
Please make corrections as needed. Each line is in order by most recent edit of that type, give or take human error.
davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 02:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
It would be nice to see the Nile on the maps of Africa, especially as it is mentioned in the second paragraph of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.41.15.1 ( talk) 23:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I created a Hebrew article, please insert link: he:אפריקה שמדרום לסהרה. -- Amnon s 00:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I personally think this article needs a complete rewrite. The sections are slurred, such as the mention of Eve in the economies with no link to the economy of anywhere, and there's no section on Religion, Culture, etc. I can't do this because I don't know much about SS Africa, I was researching it. -- 67.142.130.42 18:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Other regions' names are qualified by their geographical location or their people(s) -- for example, Eastern Europe, North America, Central America, South East Asia, Latin America, and even North Africa. Why should the region to the south of the Sahara be different? As a minimum, use the term "Africa South of the Sahara". Better still, use Southern Africa, Central Africa, North Africa. You wouldn't use "Super Saharan Africa", so why is Sub Saharan Africa acceptable?
I am sure this argument has been made here many times, but I feel compelled to speak up lest the "vocal majority" think theirs is the predominant viewpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.106.237 ( talk) 08:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
well sub saharan africa is used instead of the older term used in the past black africa ,i mean it is undeniable that north africans particular the countries of egypt,tunisia,morrocco,algeria,and libya are a different people from sub sarhran africans and or tropical africans,i mean there is no slight on nobody using the term i mean using the term is really no different than somebody calling east asia the far east or west asia the near east.i mean they are both still asian peoples but are a different people, but living on the same continent or landmass does not mean that people are the same phenotype and / or genotype it is sad that afrocentrism plagues this world wiht its non sence-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 01:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello. The corresponding Japanese Wikipedia article is still named Black Africa, and the move proposal to Sub-Saharan Africa is now pending because there is no source provided for the reason why the latter is better, though we agreed the latter term is getting more and more popular. Do you have any source for the reason of the change in terminology? - TAKASUGI Shinji ( talk) 03:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Googling "subsaharan africa" vs "black africa" seems to just give a lot of pages that use both terms alternately. The only ones that discuss preferring one over the other are Wikipedia and mirrors.
My guess so far is that there is not an overwhelming preference for one term over the other. I think the article should mention both terms, but that doesn't solve the question of the title. Subsaharan Africa is a bit more formal or technical, and that seems like a legitimate reason for preferring it as the official title. -- JWB ( talk) 19:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
"The peoples south of the Sahara developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world."
I am removing this statement. It is incorrect and has a smattering of Jarred Diamond and Eurocentrism. How could the sub-saharan Mali and Songhay Empire developed isolated and created one of the premier learning centers of the islamic world, the pre-eminent civilization of the time? Her trade with the muslim world was significant and crucial. How could the sub-saharan Swahili states have developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world when it was trading with Persia, India, and China? In Great Zimbabwe Chinese artifacts have been found which would indicate trade with China via the Swahili states. Most of these subsaharan civilizations were trading with Asia. If Axum is sub-saharan, how do one explain her connection to Arabia, especially the Southern part if she developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world? If Nubia in Sudan, part of Sub-saharan Africa developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world, how did she conquer Egypt and part of the Levant? Nubia, sub-saharan,was a major player in Meditteranean power politics in the Ancient world. If Nubia is sub-saharan then sub-saharan Africa had civilization before Europe. If significant civilizations in sub-saharan Africa had contacts with other civilization outside the continents how did "the peoples South of the sahara developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world"? Omniposcent ( talk) 04:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Sub-saharan is absolute. The fact that the Mali and the Songhay empires(sub saharan) were major learning center of the Islamic world and her scholars were sought after throughout the islamic world, how is that "relative isolation" because of the sahara? Mali and Songhay seem to be part of that world. Europe was in her middle age, she was more isolated from the "rest of the world." Nubia(sub saharan)had all the features of nile valley civilization and conquered Egypt and part of the Levant, how is that "relative isolation"? She was a player, thereby intimately connected. The "rest of the world" for example Europe was backwards and primitive. Greece was Europe's first light of civilization. Nubia's(sub saharan) antiquity is that of Egypt, thousands of years before Greece. The Swahili States(sub saharan)was trading with Persia, India, and China. How is that "relative isolation." The "rest of the world" for example Europe was in her dark and middle age, she was more isolated than the Swahilli states(sub saharan). One uses this Eurasian terminology both in a cultural context and as a continent. One must compare apples with apples, continent with continent. You can't compare a continent with a subregion(especially artificially constructed), Eurasia vs sub-saharan Africa. About 2000 years of civilization (writing, domesticated animals, agriculture) there is no Europe in the equation of Eurasia only in Africa(including Nubia sub-saharan Africa) and Asia(Eurasia). Omniposcent ( talk) 04:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree 100%,the baltic tribes of europe had no written language until the 16th century,and many germanic,scandinavian,slavic and celtic tribes[britons or celtic iberians especially who constitute most of the 'new world'] were not literate until the advent of roman/aegean influence.SSA were isolates but much of europe was equally tribal living in wooden,wicker,arched timber thatched huts - Roman and Aegean peoples being the only "europeans" to have "created" civilization.
58.178.6.249 (
talk) 02:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Someone removed Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia from the Sub saharan country section. Please don't change the definition because it doesn't fit ones sacred belief. Omniposcent ( talk) 21:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The lone exception to this rule has traditionally been and still is to a large extent the Horn of Africa, home to the racially, linguistically and culturally distinct people of Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea and Djibouti and eastern-most terminus of the Sahara desert. [1]
I have removed this line. This is original research. Second, the reference does not support the claim. If one scan the Western mainstream and African periodicals Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia are part of East Africa, thereby sub-saharan. There are 41 countries in sub saharan Africa, not 38. Racially if we are talking about phenotypes Ethiopians/Eritrea are quite distinct from Somalis and are culturally distinct too. Why not say West Africans are distinct? Blacks in the sahel say Wolof, Fulani, Mandinke can be physically distinct too blacks in the forest areas like Yoruba, Igbo, Ashanti. Both regions are quite culturally distinct. Linguistically the Afro-asiatic is also spoken in West Africa, Hausa for example. The Horn of Africa is not distinct in that manner. If you are a Eurocentrist, the term was defined by you. Please don't change the definition because your own definition has proven you wrong. Your notion of primitive sub saharan Africa does not hold. An inferior Black race is the motive, it also does not hold. Omniposcent ( talk) 01:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
"Nubia(sub saharan)had all the features of nile valley civilization and conquered Egypt and part of the Levant, how is that "relative isolation"? She was a player, thereby intimately connected. The "rest of the world" for example Europe was backwards and primitive. Greece was Europe's first light of civilization. Nubia's(sub saharan) antiquity is that of Egypt, thousands of years before Greece."
It seems this little comment has offended the Eurocentric mind and sensibilities. We are changing the definitions because our beliefs are threatened. The article now has conflicting information. The first map of sub-saharan Africa shows Sudan as part of sub-saharan Africa. Another map shows her as being part of North Africa and in the country list Sudan is under East Africa with a North Africa designation. The map that puts Sudan in North Africa has a UN reference. Is Sudan North African or Sub-saharan? In the UN website Sudan appears in both the Sub-saharan and North African country list. On the UN website there is conflicting information.
http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation3/menu/advanced.asp http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/htmain.htm
Sudan is a sub-saharan country. The World Bank class Sudan as a sub-saharan country http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/eastafr.pdf. Scanning all Western mainstream periodicals New York Times, Washington Post, The Guardian, etc., Sudan is classed a sub-saharan nation. African periodicals( http://allafrica.com) class her as East African, thereby sub-saharan. All general histories of Sudan classes her as Sub-saharan. References within this very article classes her as sub-saharan http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/images/subsaharan.jpg http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/subsaharanafrica. Omniposcent ( talk) 20:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
In the East African section I am putting Sudan back under general East Africa. To put Sudan under North Africa contradicts the meaning of Sub-saharan. We are dealing with broad geographic regions not economic unions or regions. Second, Sub-saharan civilizations were Nubia, Axum, Swahili States, Wagadu (Ghana Empire), Mali Empire, Nok, Songhai Empire, Kanem, Bornu, Benin, Great Zimbabwe, and The Zulu Empire. Wikipedia's policy states one must edit and discuss any changes. Omniposcent ( talk) 02:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The u.n only has sudan part of north africa is because of politcal reasons because of the large arab presence in sudan,but sudan geographicaly is a part of sub saharan africa/black africa-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
"Sub-Saharan" actually is used mostly in political and economic contexts, where the units are countries, in spite of the term itself referring to an environmental feature, so it is not irrelevant to list regional organizations. Also, whether Sudan is considered part of North Africa, East Africa, both, or neither does not determine whether it is considered part of Sub-Saharan Africa, or vice versa.
In any case Southern Sudan is planning independence in 2011, and will be sub-Saharan by any definition, and probably no longer included in North Africa by anyone. The rest of Sudan will likely continue to be an intermediate case like Mauritania. -- JWB ( talk) 22:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Sub-Saharan is not just used mostly in an economic or political context. It is widely used in the racial context mainly "Black Africa." This is why the article is much argued. The distance sub regions of sub-saharan Africa have very little economic or political context. What is the political and economic context between west Africa and southern Africs? None. The only context is in a geographic sense, south of the sahara and the racial context "black Africa". The latter being why some countries are not exactly south of the sahara. I was illustrating based on the preponderance of the data, the Western mainstream press, the African press, and the traditional historical writing on Sudan places her as "Sub-saharan", "black Africa." Very few sources cite Sudan as North African(only conflicting UN and IMF sources). Here is a quote from the president of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, an Arab, in rejecting troops to the Darfur region.
"They want to colonize Africa, starting with the first sub-Saharan country to gain its independence(Sudan). If they want to start colonization in Africa, let them choose a different place."
He never said it was North African. Eurocentrist play semantic games with the word Arab and obscure African history. In the Western mind an Arab is a white guy from the Middle East or from Saudi Arabia. Arab is not a race. For centuries Black Africans have been taking on Arab identities. In African history an Arab could be a Black African or a Black African Arab. A large percentage of Muhammed's earliest converts to Islam were Black Africans, Ethiopians.
A perfect illustration of all of these points. The Westerm press portrays the conflict in Sudan as Arabs engaging in ethnic cleansing of native Black Africans to the South and West. Those Arabs are native Black Africans. In fact, I have quite a few friends from northern Sudan, who are Arabs. I usually tease them by saying "I thought you were white." They usually burst out laughing or usually crack a grin. They typically explain to me they are Arabs but they are also black Africans. That is why I like to use the word Islamic instead of Arab. Omniposcent ( talk) 01:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Sub-Saharan Africa is synonymous with Black Africa, although the region does in fact share a good deal of economic and political context.
"Arab" has multiple meanings, but the most relevant modern one is simply people whose native language is Arabic.
Personally I would not say "North African" is Sudan's most prominent identity, yet some sources like the UN Geoscheme classify it as both North African and sub-Saharan without any contradiction between the two, and the article should cover the various major viewpoints. -- JWB ( talk) 04:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
West Africa, especially the Sahelian region, historically has had more economic and political context with North Africa than say Southern Africa. The tran-saharan trade in gold and salt made Berber cities on the Meditteranean and Sahelian societies interdependent. Berber cities became more prosperous and strong by connecting West African goods to the Meditteranean/ European world during Phoenician, Roman, and Arab periods. Sahelian societies became prosperous and strong by exporting gold and importing salt. Most of the gold in the Meditteranean/European world came from the trans-saharan trade. Morocco invaded Songhay to control that gold trade. With Europeans bypassing the trans-saharan routes via the Atlantic, the signifigance of those coastal Berber cities diminished. We see a similiar setup with Egypt(North Africa) and Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). Nubia (Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan) provided gold and other sub-saharan goods to Egypt. It was one of the reason Egypt(North Africa) invaded Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). Some will say that Nubia is a carbon copy of Egypt. Yes later on in its history Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan) copied Egypt(North Africa) but when Egypt(North Africa)was first being settled she was copying Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). If Nubia is not black thereby not sub-saharan and not in Sudan one must provide proof of the "various major veiwpoints" that backs this up, besides one U.N. map that does not explain itself. Southern Africa had more political and economic context with East Africa, especially Great Zimbabwe with the Swahili States than say West Africa. All of Africa not just Sub-saharan had great political and economic context with each other, especially the region that was close to each other. Omniposcent ( talk) 18:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm mostly talking about the modern period, which is where the term "sub-Saharan" is most used.
There was also a period before the Saharan trade - the camel arrived only about 2000 years ago, the horse a few thousand more. And even farther back than that, there was a wet Sahara period, though relatively short. See Saharan pump theory.
Who is arguing that Nubia is not black or sub-Saharan? Again, this is separate from the UN regional divisions, which are not based on race or ancient history.
I have no problem with a return of the term "Black Africa" to this article. It is synonymous and still often seen in discussions of culture, art, etc. as opposed to modern politics and economy. However some people seem to feel it is derogatory and have removed it. -- JWB ( talk) 20:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The term sub-saharan is used from the beginning of the Sahara to the present, with the same racial overtones. There seems to be an over-emphasis on sub-saharan importation. The horse was not domesticated in Europe. It was domesticated in Central Asia, this knowledge was then imported to Europe. Most of the significant domesticated plants and animals in the Eurasian model were domesticated in Asia and North Africa. Like sub-saharan Africa, Europe imported most of the knowledge. We see the importation emphasis with writing. We can conclude that modern day writing is a very African enterprise. After all the Latin script, the Cyrillic script, Greek script, Hebrew script, Arabic script(largely exported to sub-saharan Africa) and other Asian scripts are derived from the Phoenician script. The Phoenician script was derived from proto-Canaanite script. Proto-Canaanite from Egyptian Hieroglyphs. The Egyptians were the first to develop an alphabet based written language. Egyptian culture is African, in the sub-saharan sense (no debate here). You asked, "Who is arguing that Nubia is not black or sub-Saharan?" I will let you answer your own question:
I don't know what criteria the UN used to classify Sudan as North African. All I know North Africa and close surrounding Sub-saharan regions are economically and politically connected "in modern times." For example water can be big issue politically and economically between Egypt(North Africa) and Sudan(Sub-saharan) in "modern times." Water issues can determine if Egypt will support troops to Darfur or not. I accept Black Africa as Sub-saharan. This does not mean that I accept North Africa as white Africa. North Africans are phenotypically to varied for that category and genetics does not support this. I thought that the one drop rule was only an American phonomena. It seems to be the view of Europe too, in scanning mainstream European periodicals. If that is the case, using the one drop rule, all of North Africa is Black. Omniposcent ( talk) 16:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't see anything on "importation" in the article, or how your digression on Europe is relevant to this article. Europe imported the things you mentioned, nobody disputes this or even considers it an issue.
Most likely the UN put Sudan in a region with North Africa because of common language and because of current transport and economic links. There is little commerce between Sudan and its neighbors to the west, south and east. Most trade is via Egypt or the Red Sea. -- JWB ( talk) 09:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the first Africa map from the List of Countries. It does not give info on sub-saharan Africa. I have also removed the second map from the list of countries because Sudan is not normally considered part of North Africa, it is considered sub-saharan. Plus, this is about Sub-saharan Africa not North Africa. She can be excluded. I have also place the second top map in the List of Countries section. It completely defines sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 02:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
"Generally, sub-Saharan Africa is the poorest region in the world, suffering from the effects of colonialism, economic mismanagement, local corruption. and inter-ethnic conflict."
I have added colonialism to the list because inter-ethnic conflict and artificial political structures introduced during colonial times are behind a lot of Africa's political and economic problems. Some would argue corruption is not bad. Many Asian countries were corrupt but were able to develop economically. Transfering development funds to Swiss bank accounts or to foreign banks is the culprit. Taking developmental funds outside a country is the culprit. Omniposcent ( talk) 02:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
It contrasts with North Africa, which is Egyptian and Berber. The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara proper and Sub-Saharan Africa.
The Horn of Africa and Southern Sudan are technically part of Sub-Saharan Africa, but nevertheless show strong Middle Eastern ( Islamic) influence. citation needed
Also Nubia is part of sub-saharan Africa. Again, if one makes changes please announce why and support your argument. The sahara was an effective barrier not and insurmountable barrier. Before camels, the donkey and the oxen were used. The camel made the length of crossing shorter. Most of the gold used in the Meditteranean to mint coins came from the trans-saharan trade. Omniposcent ( talk) 21:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I am removing this map.
Before one makes a change please announce the change and explain why.
Southern Sudan (autonomous region of Sudan with independence referendum in 2011)
Last time. We have had this discussion. The majority of the data supports ALL of Sudan as sub-saharan. This notation implies that only the Southern part of Sudan is Sub-saharan. This perspective is not documented. Second, you are engaging in original research. I have read all forms of African Historiography, from liberal to clinical cambridge press history, all Western mainstream African historiography. None have divided up Sudan to the South as just Sub-saharan. This is the pathology that exist. The perverse need to restrict "black" African achievements. Some find African achievements in civilizaton threatening. Are we going to have a debate as to whether Nubians were black? For the records all pre-roman, pre-christian, pre-islamic Berber and Egyptian culture shared the same cultural themes as those of sub-saharan Africa. They were Africans. Omniposcent ( talk) 06:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
My edits was to emphasized that it was part of East Africa thereby sub-saharan. Omniposcent ( talk) 09:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I am removing this map. The article is about sub-saharan Africa. It should reflect the language of only Sub-saharan Africa. The article is not about language families of Africa. That is the appropriate context of this map.
Omniposcent ( talk) 06:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't use it. I guess I will have to construct my own map of sub-saharan africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 07:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
What happen to the previous map that was available? I could not locate it in wiki commons. Omniposcent ( talk) 07:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Omniposcent, your statements come across completely confused. Please try to make clear what you mean. The map illustrates that Niger-Congo and Khoi-San are purely Sub-Saharan phyla, but that "northeastern Sub-Saharan Africa" (i.e. Horn of Africa plus Southern Sudan) have Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic populations. This goes to show that the Horn of Africa culturally is closer to Saharan Africa than the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa. dab (𒁳) 09:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Dbachmann I think sir the confusion is on your side. You have made an entirely confused statement. You have introduced an entirely new concept Saharan Africa in relation to Sub-saharan Africa. Let me bring clarity to your unclear mind. The article is about sub-saharan Africa. Would it not be nice to list all sub-saharan countries and then illustrate all the language families in Sub-saharan Africa by putting in those pretty colors.
I thank you for the reference sir. I will refer you to it too but I hope you might not need it. Please sir next time place that message on my personal page. This is the discussion page about Sub-saharan Africa. I hope you know that. We can get confuse sometimes. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The article is about sub-saharan Africa, this map would be more appropriate under the article Africa or world distribution of Islam and Christianity. The information in the caption is also wrong. The horn of Africa is predominately Christian and predominantly Othodox, very rare in Africa and a testament to her early adoption of Christianity. Plus the Sahel region in West Africa is predominantly muslim. The Sahel is the exception to the Christian rule in sub-saharan Africa, not the Horn of Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 18:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
This article has a problem with vandalism. One is deleting and making fundamental changes and not stating their reasons. Nubia is part of sub-saharan Africa. Please don't remove it again without discussion. Removing it would constitute vandalism. Omniposcent ( talk) 18:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Nubia was not just medieval sir. Ghana was not just Medieval. Aksum was not just medieveal. In Europe there was just 2 ancient civilizations, Rome and Greece. I hope listing the number of medieval states in Europe is not bias towards her history. There is the racial component to sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Nubia is a historical territory in what is now southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. It is ostensibly not part of Sub-Saharan Africa. If you want to insist, the burden is on you to present a reliable source stating "Nubia is in Sub-Saharan Africa". dab (𒁳) 07:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Well sir we have had this discussion. If you read all the other discussions sir, the burden has been met. You have not read it, that is why you are engaging in vandalism. I suspect one of your compatriots have not read it too. Machinations are a two way street. It corrupts the process. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I have always found the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" to somewhat Northern-centric and offensive. In what sense is Africa "beneath" Europe ? No-one calls Europe "Sub-Mediterrean Europe" but North at the top of all maps, atlases and globes is entirely arbitrary. I don't regard the people of Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Angola, Malawi etc as 'sub' anything or anywhere. The older terminology was "Black Africa" as opposed to "Arabian Africa", which I think was better. I would like a note to this affect somewhere. What do other people think? SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering when Sir Paul would show his head. Sir for the records it's a lot of information but not relevant to sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 19:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Dbachman this has been done. All the edit I have done has been explained. You have not read the discussion. You are editing without explaining. You are introducing concept like the sahel is a transition point to subsaharan Africa. The sahel is part of sub-saharan Africa. Your reference is not clear. It does not prove your case. I have removed it.
The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara proper and sub-Saharan Africa. [2]
Big pigeon hides behind small pigeon, sacrifices small pigeon's name. Debachmann I am impress. Your mastery of the English language is impeccable, like an Englishman. You make feel like I am talking to a "PHD." It does not define "the belt of humid savannas to the south" as Sub-saharan. It does not define sub-saharan. It only defines ecological zones. You are wasting my time. The reference does not support the claim. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Secondly the Horn of Africa is predominantly Orthodox Christian but because of strong muslim presence, I will go with your exception rule of Sub-saharan Africa.
Your source is wrong. I literally calculated the population of the Horn of Africa and exaggerated the muslim population. I assumed all of Eritrea, Djibouti, and Somalia as muslim. I did not have data for the muslim percentage for Eritrea, which is very unlikely that she is entirely muslim. There was a 50/50 breakdown. If you read my edits , I specifically kept the section where the horn of africa has strong muslim influence. Eritrea is not entirely muslim. Remember she share a common past with Ethiopia and like Ethiopia speaks one of the few semitic languages in Africa. For the records data is from the CIA Factbook. Again you waste my time. Little pigeon sacrifices for big pigeon. I would never let anyone exploit my name. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.
But I will add the Sahel, Swahili coast, instead southern Sudan change that to Sudan.
Sir you stated:
all I did was add more information, the Sahel, Swahili coast. They "nevertheless show strong Middle Eastern (Islamic) influence." You mentioned nothing about Arab League here. I don't mind including all sub-saharan countries that are part of the Arab League. I am repeating myself. You are wasting my time. More information the merrier. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Nubia is a sub-saharan civilization.
There is racial component to definition of sub-saharan Africa, not that I accept it. It is part of your traditional mainstream notion of "Black Africa." You are going against tradition. This has been stated before. I am repeating myself. It is sickening to me that some peoples diapers have been paid by these thieving African Dictators and now these people seem to hold a pathological contempt for the African and relish in the downtrodden state of sub-saharan Africa. That is what happens when one steals from ones own people for antoher. Omniposcent ( talk) 00:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I can do better than that. You should have done a search on Kush. Kush is Nubia at her greatest. The Nubia that was South of Egypt and North of Sudan. Kush was sub-saharan.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/research_projects/merowe_dam_project.aspx http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/530866/
go ahead and google kush + subsaharan--lots and lots of references.
What do you mean "North African" civilization? Last I checked Ancient Egypt had more in common with the societies to the south not the Northwest or the rest of North Africa. You waste my time. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I make a fuss about it because your definition defies the definition of Sub-saharan, both in the strict geographical sense and in the notion of "Black Africa." Omniposcent ( talk) 10:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
btw, I have no objection to mentioning the Sahel here. A detailed account of the region will of course belong on Sahel. I do think it is possible to present the Sahel as the northernmost part of Sub-Saharan Africa, no problem. In fact, if we're going to look at subdivisions beyond the West/East/Central/Southern scheme, SSA might be described as consisting of:
dab (𒁳) 10:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
What makes you think i have a problem with that. More information the better, as long as it is accurate no poving, no original research. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
You and your compatriots started editing this page without discussion. You included original research, wrong data, poving. You seem to have a history of doing that when it comes to African topics, which indicates to me ideological attachement. Just as you have referred to me wikipedian policy let me refer you to the same, WP:NPOV, WP:TIGERS, WP:SOAP. Omniposcent ( talk) 19:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The Swahili culture was not colonization of Persians and Arabs of Africa. The Swahili culture came about due to indigenous African societies trading with Arabs and Persians. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Sound to me the "puerile ravings" are from you. What are you some neo nazi, white supremacist Eurocentrist bent on wikipedian domination. I have met a character like you before. He thought he was so literate. Frankly all that came out of him was hot air. If literate meant being him certainly that did not amount to being much, personally nothing. I take that back he might have made a good poet or writer of imaginative fiction. The guy was a bit of a "nutter",all the different personalities he took on. This guy needed counseling. Personally, I think the guy needed a girlfriend. I doubt he was getting his groove on. PhoneyRat ( talk) 18:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Comparing Afrocentrist to Neo-nazis, mass murderers on that scale. Last I checked no afrocentrist has ever advocated killing any human on the basis of race, creed, sexual orientation. No Afrocentrist has advocated killing flies. Admin Dbachmann let me refer you to Wikipedian policy:
WP:NOT, WP:DUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:TIGERS , WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP , WP:POINT and WP:OMGWTFBBQ
PhoneyRat ( talk) 18:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, your English doesn't quite parse, but were you trying to say that I had "compared Afrocentrists to Neo-nazis"? I have done no such thing. It is you who has brought up "neo nazi, white supremacist Eurocentrist bent on wikipedian domination", and I have been chiding you for it. PhoneyRat, this is surreal. There can be no discussion until you at least manage to form grammatical English sentences. In a second step, you may want to arrange such sentences into coherent statements. In a next step, such statements may be extended into meaningful debate. I don't think we can help you acquire such skills on Wikipedia though, you'll need to look elsewhere. -- dab (𒁳) 07:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Now I see the revert term deleting info, see old discussion and respect teh rules of this site. sourced content cannot be deleted just because someone doesnt like it. There must be a discussion and i dont think an entire critic of a problematic term can be removed. It is well written well sourced from places which hold to an African authentic perspective which is also the position of the AU (see how Sub-Africa is treated--they dont even use the term in their published material). -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 14:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Writing an article that quotes predominantly negative data about Sub-saharan Africa is not NPOV, that is propaganda. You forgot the Egyptians and the Nubians Admin Dbachman(aka dabs). They were more ancient players in the Mediterranean than the Greeks and the Romans(hatchlings). They were certainly "circum-Saharan." North African societies Phoenician/Berber grew and prospered because trans-saharan trade. You do understand the golden rule , the man with the gold makes the rules. Sub-saharan societes certainly had a lot of gold. North Afican cities had the ports and connection to ship it. During the Arabic and Islamic phase with the exception of Andalusia one could say the major "pathways" was more "circum-saharan" than "circum-Mediterranean." Admin Dbachman let me refer you to Wikipedian policy:
WP:NOT, WP:DUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:TIGERS , WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP , WP:POINT , WP:OMGWTFBBQ PhoneyRat ( talk) 19:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, you are not making any sense. You want to include "criticism" of the term? Then cite notable critics. Criticism of the term used to refer to SSA doesn't change the topic, or the thing referred to by the term. Just like the islands remain the unchanged if you call them " British Isles" or " These Isles". If you can cite some government rejecting the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" just like the Irish government refuses to use "British Isles", by all means let us know. dab (𒁳) 07:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Let's review the "criticism" then:
lol, " balkanization"? This chap is implying that Africa is less diverse, or more unified, than the Balkans? The Journal of Third World Studies is "A scholarly and provocative periodical on Third World Problems and Issues". In this instance, they clearly opted for erring on the side of "provocation". If you like, we can add a brief note that there has been some political noise about the term in Afrocentrist literature, but that's hardly the topic of this article, which is addressing the region, not the terminology. -- dab (𒁳) 07:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I have edited this from white to light skinned, its a tiny fraction of North Africans that would consider themselves as white often with the help of "skin beautifying products and blemishes,dark spot removal products", nor would they be considered "white" elsewhere in the world except in the US census.The skin colour of North Africans ranges from olive to dark brown to black. Please don't use Wikipedia for racialism.Claiming Egyptians to be "white" is often used in order for Europeans to claim their great cultural achievements as theirs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.0.207 ( talk) 16:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
the entire point of mentioning "black" and "white" in the lead is in order to explain the common name "Black Africa". This isn't an article about race. Citing Coon as a reference must be about as surreal as it gets. Please. "Caucasoid" is an obsolete racialist classification. "White" is just a description of an individual's skin type. There is a huge difference. "Caucasoid" carries all sorts of ideological baggage. It is very simple. "Black Africa" (Sudan) is so called because its population is "black", compared to the population of North Africa, which is not part of "Black Africa". If you want to discuss concepts of scientific racism, please find another venue. If you want to debate the inclusion of Mediterranean populations under "white", please go to Talk:White people. -- dab (𒁳) 12:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate the need for this discussion in general (although it has been seen on Wikipedia before), but may I point out that this isn't the appropriate place for it, this is the talkpage for the Sub-Saharan Africa article. Please take it to user talkspace. -- dab (𒁳) 18:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
this is for color terminology for race. Obviously (really) neither "black" nor "white" people literally have black or white skin. I do not suppose this needs any pointing out here. The historical term for the "dark whites" of North Africa is Melanochroi, and yes, they are included under white, since otherwise the terminology of "Black Africa" wouldn't make any sense. Please, this is just about conventional terminology. It boils down to "people south of the Sahara tend to have significantly darker skin", ok? Historically, this was labelled in terms of "black" vs. "white". The distinction is still in use colloquially, and even if lots of caveats apply, it is still the origin of the terminology under discussion. Don't create WP:WIKIDRAMA over nothing at all. -- dab (𒁳) 18:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
once again, if you are interested in this question, go and read color terminology for race, and discuss the details or request references at Talk:color terminology for race. You are literally on the wrong page here. -- dab (𒁳) 18:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Ooh, so this is really about the race of the Ancient Egyptians. Well I never. It is hardly my fault that you refuse to listen to reason for ideological reasons best known to yourself. So you believe "Black Africa" is called "Black" in contrast to "Lighter Skinned". Wth? This would suggest it should be called "Darker Skinned Africa". Give us a break. -- dab (𒁳) 10:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
You know what is anachronistic? Or cheap rhetorics? To bring the Ancient Egyptians into a discussion on a term (Black Africa, remember) that isn't claimed by anyone to date back more than a couple of centuries. Just out of curiosity, are you perhaps an "African-American" citizen of the United States? Because I don't think anyone not steeped in African-American racialist ideology could bring up the Ancient Egyptians in a context such as this. This article isn't about US demographics, you should read Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. -- dab (𒁳) 10:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Another important thing to note, besides the looseness of the term "Caucasoid" which can and has been applied to millions of non-white people, is that "white" in North Africa does not mean the same thing as "white" in European countries. In North Africa, "white" people refers to lighter brown skin. Not "white" the same way Europeans meant and mean the word.
In those areas Arabs are referred to as "white" while Europeans are referred to as "pink". It has nothing to do with American identity politics and everything to do with the fact that North Africans don't view themselves as "white" in any sense that would be equivalent to the European sense of the word. Ethiopians call themselves "brown" and call central Africans "black". That doesn't mean they view themselves as less African or less "black" (in the Western sense of the word) than other Africans. Full Shunyata ( talk) 04:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
First apologies for an entire new category, the edit function being unfriendly for long responses, my thoughts were easier to put in seperately.
I also agree with Dbachmann's notes re colour supra.
But as to Shunyata, I find your response rather sad.
First, you might try checking your assumption that those who disagree with your specific understanding of Sub Saharan Africa and Racial issues (of which it is not a piece), are “Eurocentric” or “White Supremacist” [an implied assumption] or the like.
But to substance:
As to North African ‘colour prejudice’ (I use the phrase colour prejudice advisedly as ‘racial prejudice’ I think is both analytically and factually wrong in framing), well of course I have ‘cites’ – I mean besides my own decade living and working in the region (as well as Sub Saharan Africa), and my own family with its decidedly international and multi-colour nature, but those are not cites, I am merely indicating my distaste for your simplistic and American racialist centric whinging.
As to the real issue, that is the native North African perception of difference from Sub Saharan Africa, rather obviously this is going to be situational and like all human ethnic and ‘racial’ (or perceived ethno-‘racial’ differences) dependent on relatives reference / situation.
However, it is bizarre, bordering on willfully ignorant to request ‘proof’ given extensive on-wiki cites that you can follow on: Haratin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haratin (a complex conversation, but note the issues of colour / race discrimination); Gnaoua: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnawa (I would note the two articles together help show the complex colour perceptions in the Maghreb); Nanj for the Machreq & the Egyptian and Sudanese portions of the Abeed articles: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeed ); Discussions of colour / racial prejudice in the Maghreb w respect to the following pages: Slavery in [modern] Mauretania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mauritania Hassane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassane - a Beidan group
With respect to validating my own observations of colour prejudice and the presumption (on the part of locals) of difference between Sub Saharan Africa I would cite the following news articles: BBC: Are Sub Saharan Africans welcome, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3433737.stm Attacking Europe’s border fences, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3604519.stm, also re Algeria http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7125746.stm; Libyan anti Black African riots: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/955731.stm; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/975491.stm;
I would add in addition to the Wiki articles and works cited in the Wiki articles (which I repeat for your benefit:
Ennaji has a very fine examination of Slavery in 18th and 19th century Morocco CITE that outlines. Also Hunwick has another work that escapes me presently, but is very good on the emergence of colour prejudice in North Africa (or the Southern Mediterannean Basin, which is a better historical and ecological zone). One can see from these discussions the emergence of colour prejudice driven by factors that had zero to do with “race” but all about changing power dynamics – where the ‘white’ Saqaliba’ (Slavic slaves) or European slaves gained in prominence or social status as their ‘home’ regions integrated into the Indo-Mediterranean economic zone (to exaggerate slightly).
Otherwise, I find your cite to the note regarding Mali importing scholars from Maghreb etc. to be ridiculous. Confident people without complexes recognize cross pollination. One can (and should) write the same thing about the Maghreb. The Maghreb imported scholars from the east (as well as initially importing and then exchanging scholars with Islamic Spain, the flow usually being determined by, surprise, which region was more economically prosperous and stable). The Sahalian empires were an indigenous development that prospered (as did all Europe, Eastern Asia) from neighbouring developments, and built on them. The Malians imported scholars to support their agenda, like Indian Mughal Emperors, Central Asian Emperors, and yes European Kings of various regions (as Europe is a bullshite region) imported scholars. Reaction in this area merely says you do not know your history and lack confidence in your thesis. There is nothing at all ‘Eurocentric’ in noting that Timbouctou borrowed / imported professors from Fez, any more than there is in saying Fez kicked off by borrowing from the East – which it did. It is entirely reasonable to write that “primary archival research needs to be done to deepen our understanding of local scholarship, given very limited primary research to date, but recent discoveries of Arabic and Ajami records promise to expand the written record and deepen our knowledge of indigenous – Islamic synergies as a scholarly culture developed.”
One could add, that this was similar to, if harder due to ecological factors (a big fucking desert) to the way (modern Western) Europe profited from West Asian emergence of civilization.
Finally, I would note that I personally find it distasteful that the apparently American Afrocentristic editors, are so quick to imply or outright accuse editors who push back on their views of being “Eurocentric” or implied racists. As I spent much of 2007 fighting a now banned editor of Tunisian origin with genuinely Euro – or rather Mediterranean centric – views and clearly a racist, I find your implied accusations offensive, above all as you seem to have a low level of information on colour issues in Africa. I would like to note, by the way, that I fully support a balanced and well-informed corrective to genuinely racist commentary that highlights the genuinely impressive achievements of the Sahelian empires, that to my mind need no exaggeration and refute ridiculous theses of biological inferiority.
You might ask if you should not check your American baggage at the door and not ask how can Wikipedia present real issues well. American colour prejudice is a concern, but it is not the only one in the world.( collounsbury ( talk) 22:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC))
Full Shunyata ( talk · contribs) is the textbook US American Afrocentrist angry young man: radically ideologized, racialist, aggressive and clueless. I have seen these accounts trying to manipulate articles literally for years, check the huge archives here. It is pointless to debate them. Just point them to policy, and revert them when they violate policy. Wikipedia isn't a debate club or a self-help group. -- dab (𒁳) 09:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The activities of soph whatever are very against wiki policies, what Afro centric sources? What is Afro-Centric. they are Pan-Africanist.Not one single ref is Afrocentric, and even if it was, where in wikipedia is Afro-centric views banned, are Eurocentric views banned? clearly not. This is a site for all valid points to be expressed. see [3]-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 07:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
according to the edits of Islam is only dominant in East Africa. However according to CIA fact book 50% of Nigeria is Muslim, 1 in 5 Africans are Nigerian. So just looking at Nigeria how can you account for Christianity being dominant in East Africa alone. If you pick a flawed map and then start a discussion based upon it you will get wrong results. In any event what is the point of this page? -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 07:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
"The Sub-Saharan region is also known as Black Africa,[4] in reference to its many black populations. Notably, commentators in Arabic in the medieval period used a similar term, bilâd as-sûdân, which literally translates to "land of the blacks" in contrast with populations of the classic Islamic world.[5]"
This introductory text defines sub-Saharan Africa in relation to the Middle East only, which strikes me as racist. This paragraph seems about differentiating sub-Saharan Africa from the Middle East and North Africa, which is not what this section should be about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miss Archie ( talk • contribs) 08:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
RACIST?!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.37.14.90 ( talk) 12:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
"The Horn of Africa and large parts of Sudan are geographically part of sub-Saharan Africa, but nevertheless show strong Middle Eastern influence and are also part of the Arab world.[3]"
The source for this quote is an Arabic-language website from the League of Arab states. Of the four nations of the Horn, two, Djibouti and Somalia, are members of the Arab League. Eritrea is an observer, and Ethiopia is not. Eritrea, Djibouti, and Somalia have Arabic as an official language, but not as the only language. Most people in Eritrea are Triginya. Most people in Djibouti are Somali and Afar. I just don't see how the Horn can accurately be called "part of the Arab world," especially give that the vast majority of residents of the Horn (75 million out of 90 million total) are Ethiopian. This is also inconsistent with the Wikipedia entry on the Horn of Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miss Archie ( talk • contribs) 11:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Well it is true which brings us to the BS that is "sub-Saharan" Africa. Many people in the North Africa are not arabs nor true native Africans and people in "sub-Saharan" Africa are Arabian in origin not to mention European. To me, if you leave out the whites in the south knowing they are invaders, you should do the same for the north and call it Africa. It is political and racial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.89.86 ( talk) 00:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
I did not say Semitic and Arab are interchangeable, but quite clearly that the early Jews were Arabs and vice versa (which is true). And I only brought this up because you insisted on taking this conversation in some tangential direction (i.e. the Yoruba et al.) that has precious little if anything to do with the actual edits in the article. Moving on, I did not add one source but five sources indicating that much of the Horn is part of the Arab world. Though I appreciate your permission, I don't need to fish for other sources either because the ones I've already cited cover this, especially with regard to Somalia and Djibouti. It's also not just the Arab League which establishes these territories as part of the Arab world. Arabs themselves have already done so and repeatedly starting centuries back, such as the 10th century geographer Ibn Hawqal's map of Diyar al-Arab ("The Arab Homeland") which outlines the Arab world & includes the Somali-inhabited territories of the Horn.
Also, the Arab League is not just an ordinary intergovernmental organization and nothing more like the African Union, for example. It is a political, cultural and social organization created by Arabs specifically and exclusively for Arab states to further Arab interests. Here is the Arab League's mission statement...
Serve the common good of all Arab countries, ensure better conditions for all Arab countries, guarantee the future of all Arab countries and fulfill the hopes and expectations of all Arab countries.
Here is a concise summary of what the Arab League is, from Financial Markets and Institutions in the Arab Economy...
The Arab nation was started to unify it selves under one Arab state since the end of the Second World War. Thus they established what is known as the Arab states League. It is an association that is supposed to harmonize the political, cultural, and economic segments of the Arab nation. The Arab League was established under the notion that of being the first step to the Arab economic and political ultimate unity as well as to settle disputes among its members.
In other words, membership in the Arab League presupposes that a nation is already a part of the Arab world; it doesn't create it from scratch.
As for Eritrea, besides the fact that it is an observer in the Arab League and is reportedly scheduled to become the League's next full-fledged member, its affiliation with the Arab world is well known. Examples...
Like I said, sources for these statements are not difficult to find. I also noticed you again altered the statement that the Horn of Africa is predominantly Muslim despite what the sources state. Unfortunately, this too is already covered in the references: "Men and women mix freely inside the EPLF - an astonishing phenomenon in the predominantly Muslim Horn of Africa" (The Middle East, nos. 135-145, (IC Publications ltd.: 1985), p.13). In future, please try and adhere to that WP:VER directive cited above, even if what the reliable sources state are difficult to accept. Soupforone ( talk) 20:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Several Arab states provided assistance to the Eritrean nationalist movement, and Arab publications often referred to Eritrea as part of the Arab world. On the other hand, the two non-Arab states on the Red Sea coast -- Ethiopia and Israel -- became allies out of necessity and encouragement from their common patron, the United States.
The Somaliland forming a part of the Arab world is very clear in Ibn Hawqal's map of Diyar al-Arab (the Arab Homeland).
The Horn is not merely a geographical designation. It is a region with a multitude of physical, social, cultural, economic and other integrating features that distinguish it from adjacent regions. Its sea boundaries are the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. Its inland boundaries are two prominent landmarks -- the East African highlands and the Nile basin -- which also represent social and cultural watersheds separating the people of the Horn from those of adjacent regions.
Syrian maps of the Arab world have always included Eritrea. -- The struggle over Eritrea, 1962-1978: war and revolution in the Horn of Africa (p. 59)
Failing to conquer Ethiopia, the Italians carved out a colony along the Red Sea, called it Eritrea, and governed it as a separate political entity from 1890 until World War II. Even before the Italians gained control over Eritrea it was set apart politically and culturally from Ethiopia. Unlike Ethiopia, which remained primarily a Christian country surrounded by Islamic states, Eritrea retained strong ties with the Arab world, was part of the Ottoman Empire from the sixteenth to the nineteenth century, and was occupied by the Egyptians in the 1860s, shortly before Italy arrived. -- Opportunities and dangers of Soviet-Cuban expansion: toward a pragmatic U.S. policy (p. 28)
The Arab states, seeing Eritrea and its Muslim population as an extension of the Arab world, then sought the establishment of an independent state. -- Eritrea by Randall Fegley (p. xxxviii)
Eritrea is an observer in the Arab League. So is Venezuela. Eritrea was part of the Ottoman Empire. So was Bosnia. So was Turkey for that matter, and it's not Arab. Eritrea had some support for its independence movement from Arab states because of its partly Muslim population. So did Mindanao.
You tried to argue that Eritrea was an Arab state because it was *not* mentioned in a passage that listed Ethiopia and Israel as the non-Arab Red Sea states. After that fell apart, you're conveniently forgetting about it and saying your point was something else - that (at least some sources in) Arab states considered Eritrea to be part of the Arab world, something that nobody is trying to dispute, but that is irrelevant to this article. Please take your stuff to articles where it is relevant. -- JWB ( talk) 05:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Syrian maps of the Arab world have always included Eritrea. -- The struggle over Eritrea, 1962-1978: war and revolution in the Horn of Africa (p. 59)
The Arab states, seeing Eritrea and its Muslim population as an extension of the Arab world, then sought the establishment of an independent state. -- Eritrea by Randall Fegley (p. xxxviii)
Failing to conquer Ethiopia, the Italians carved out a colony along the Red Sea, called it Eritrea, and governed it as a separate political entity from 1890 until World War II. Even before the Italians gained control over Eritrea it was set apart politically and culturally from Ethiopia. Unlike Ethiopia, which remained primarily a Christian country surrounded by Islamic states, Eritrea retained strong ties with the Arab world, was part of the Ottoman Empire from the sixteenth to the nineteenth century, and was occupied by the Egyptians in the 1860s, shortly before Italy arrived. -- Opportunities and dangers of Soviet-Cuban expansion: toward a pragmatic U.S. policy (p. 28)
In reply to a question why Eritrea does not become full member of the Arab League, President Isaias emphasized that the issue of membership in the League is not one of ensuring identity. In view of the ineffectiveness of the League, Eritrea has so far opted to maintain its observer status, he elaborated. The President went on to say that in the event the organization shows dynamism in its work, it is possible that Eritrea could reconsider its membership status.
Nobody is questioning whether the material can be in Wikipedia - the question is whether it is in appropriate or inappropriate places in Wikipedia. This is a short survey article focusing on contemporary and ecological topics.
Google "strong ties with the Arab world" and the first page of hits has Guyana, Latin America, Yugoslavia, South Asia, Spain, Russia, India. Clearly that phrase does not imply a country is "part of the Arab world". If anything, "having strong ties with" sounds like it is referring to an external entity, not an internal part.
"Don't try to make this about the Ottoman Empire" - you brought it up, not me.
Comoros is also a full member of the Arab League. Are you claiming Comoros, Somalia, Djibouti are "Arab states"? Arabic is widely known as a second language but is not a first language. Comoros is culturally like the mainland Swahili coast of East Africa. -- JWB ( talk) 15:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
First of all, FayssalF has blocked Mariam83 ( talk · contribs) indefinitely, and with good cause. See the discussion here. Second, because she's gone, I have unprotected the article. And third, her racist comments are really quite useless, so I think all her comments on this talk page should be removed and not archived. How does this sound? Picaroon (Talk) 04:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Sub-saharan Africa The entire article is written from a "novel narrative or historical interpretation" perspective, with the following source, which is original research and unused and unaccepted by the scholarly community, world and not used in academia [1]. The source is being used to write novel interpretations of labels etc. pertaining to the region and relevant articles, which is unencylopedic and incorrect. The administrators and editors involved have thus far ignored content and focused on disputes. Furthermore, the administrators involved have betrayed an ingrained preference, as most were involved in dispute over content in the first place. They have not commented nor seem interested in the main problem: source and POV/novel interpretation. The article needs to be reviewed by uninvolved parties, and the source looked into. 01:55, 15 July 2007
I did some minor formatting edits to the references and made the countries multicolumn. This should make the article easier on outside reviewers and general readers alike. The links aren't all in the same format, my main concern was getting "http://" off of the visible part of the link. I also changed one dead link to its old copy on The Internet Archive. There's still a lot of work left on the reference formatting but at least now it will be easier to make comments on the quality and appropriateness of the references themselves.
Some initial comments on the references: I am not ready to comment on the quality of the references. When all references supporting a fact come from the same web site, it invites questions of independence. It could be that this web site is a repository of people who coincidently share the same world view, in which case that's okay. On the other hand, they could be colleagues, in which case it's best to pick a single reference. For most things, one reference is all that is needed. The History section needs references. The Economic section needs additional references. Items in the intro usually don't have references because the intro summarizes what comes later. Any items in the intro that are not spelled out and referenced later need references. davidwr ( talk)/( track) 21:29, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
To anyone who has an interest: The previous article for Kimani Nehusi was speedy deleted for copyright violations. About 8 articles link to it. If someone would write an article about him that meets all of the Wikipedia article criteria, including no copyright violations and WP:BLP that would help the project. Expect challenges based on notability, so be sure to include several independent citations to his notability. If you find you cannot write a quality article that meets Wikipedia standards, please de-link him in the main article. Thanks. davidwr ( talk)/( track) 21:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Black Africa is now a soccer team. The article was created on top of the old redirect, and it took over the old talk page. I cleaned up Talk:Black Africa and fixed up the handful of incoming main-article links so they point to Sub-Saharan Africa instead. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 02:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Henriettaz, an account with only 6 or 7 edits, all today, left me a couple of messages on my talk page. The gist is he's a Wiki newbie and has been editing for only a few weeks. It's his opinion that these articles are "owned" by people who pushing an point of view that is contrary to his. He also believes some of the sources currently used in the article are not high quality. Here's a snippet:
“ | The editors use this original source to redefine the term sub-saharan. In the current version, it is defined as solely a geographic label, which is inaccurate. Sub-saharan Africa is not only geographic, as the Sahara is not inhabited and uninhabitable, but also, and most importantly, racial, cultural and historical. The fact that the editors repeatedly deleted the addition of an anti-afrocentric critique is significant. Why wikipedia has not yet noticed the "novelty" of this interpretation is shocking, and possibly also due to the fact that this same original source is used in all related articles, which redirect to it and vice versa. | ” |
I'm too new to this discussion to comment on the merits of his statements. Any others from outside this discussion should read these comments, and post links to relevant comments that show up on their user pages if they think it would help the overall discussion. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 12:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I've looked over some of the comments for the past few months. It looks like the dispute is over what exactly Sub-Sahara Africa really means and which of the competing definitions should be used in Wikipedia. In other words, which POV world view will dominate an article which as a whole must be
WP:NPOV. In an article like this, NPOV means in part reflecting the points of view who have a point of view,
in accordance with their numbers.
I have a proposal:
Once you've done the research and collectively decided if you want to be more general-interest or more scholarly, then decide what to put into the encyclopedia. This being an encyclopedia, I would personally recommend going the general-audience route, at least to start with. This will probably come down to a vote, but if it is close perhaps a general purpose article with more than the usual amount of scientific discussion would be a good compromise.
No matter which way you go, I recommend acknowledging minority views and giving them due weight without giving them undue weight. Due weight for a fringe opinion shared by half a dozen close-knit academics may be a sentence and a reference. If it's shared by 10% of the academics out there, it may be a couple of paragraphs and several references. If it's 45% of the academic community then it should take almost as much room as the dominant point of view. This is in my opinion one aspect of wiki-neutrality.
There is at least one point of view that some here have called novel and others have all but labeled fringe. I encourage everyone here to set aside their own prejudices and go research secondary sources like book reviews, journal articles that are not primary sources, newspaper articles that are not original research, and the like as well as tertiary sources like encyclopedia articles, and report back here with with what they find. Online sources and sources found at almost every public library are preferred only because everyone here can go read the whole article in context.
As you make your decisions, don't forget the voices of the silenced. It is unfortunate that one user representing a particular POV has been blocked from editing. However, that person's POV is just as valid as everyone else's POV. As you gather your sources, it will be tempting to only report back sources that represent YOUR POV. Please don't do this. You are building an encyclopedia of general knowledge, not an encyclopedia of your world-view. Please bring back all relevant information so it can be digested and discussed.
Once you, as a group, have all the material together, you can decide where to go from there.
Finally, and probably most important swallow your pride, shake hands with your intellectual opponent, and be WP:CIVIL.
If you do this right, it should take at least a few days to gather the data and decide how to proceed, and a few more days or weeks to come up with a revised article. Until then, I recommend that everyone make a gentlemen's agreement to only make grammar and other minor edits. davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 01:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
The list of recent editors is quite small. It will be that much harder for the remaining editors to make an article that is free of their own personal bias. To aid contacting recent editors, I've put together this list of editors since June 16.
Please make corrections as needed. Each line is in order by most recent edit of that type, give or take human error.
davidwr/( talk)/( contribs)/( e-mail) 02:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
It would be nice to see the Nile on the maps of Africa, especially as it is mentioned in the second paragraph of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.41.15.1 ( talk) 23:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I created a Hebrew article, please insert link: he:אפריקה שמדרום לסהרה. -- Amnon s 00:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I personally think this article needs a complete rewrite. The sections are slurred, such as the mention of Eve in the economies with no link to the economy of anywhere, and there's no section on Religion, Culture, etc. I can't do this because I don't know much about SS Africa, I was researching it. -- 67.142.130.42 18:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Other regions' names are qualified by their geographical location or their people(s) -- for example, Eastern Europe, North America, Central America, South East Asia, Latin America, and even North Africa. Why should the region to the south of the Sahara be different? As a minimum, use the term "Africa South of the Sahara". Better still, use Southern Africa, Central Africa, North Africa. You wouldn't use "Super Saharan Africa", so why is Sub Saharan Africa acceptable?
I am sure this argument has been made here many times, but I feel compelled to speak up lest the "vocal majority" think theirs is the predominant viewpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.106.237 ( talk) 08:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
well sub saharan africa is used instead of the older term used in the past black africa ,i mean it is undeniable that north africans particular the countries of egypt,tunisia,morrocco,algeria,and libya are a different people from sub sarhran africans and or tropical africans,i mean there is no slight on nobody using the term i mean using the term is really no different than somebody calling east asia the far east or west asia the near east.i mean they are both still asian peoples but are a different people, but living on the same continent or landmass does not mean that people are the same phenotype and / or genotype it is sad that afrocentrism plagues this world wiht its non sence-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 01:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello. The corresponding Japanese Wikipedia article is still named Black Africa, and the move proposal to Sub-Saharan Africa is now pending because there is no source provided for the reason why the latter is better, though we agreed the latter term is getting more and more popular. Do you have any source for the reason of the change in terminology? - TAKASUGI Shinji ( talk) 03:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Googling "subsaharan africa" vs "black africa" seems to just give a lot of pages that use both terms alternately. The only ones that discuss preferring one over the other are Wikipedia and mirrors.
My guess so far is that there is not an overwhelming preference for one term over the other. I think the article should mention both terms, but that doesn't solve the question of the title. Subsaharan Africa is a bit more formal or technical, and that seems like a legitimate reason for preferring it as the official title. -- JWB ( talk) 19:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
"The peoples south of the Sahara developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world."
I am removing this statement. It is incorrect and has a smattering of Jarred Diamond and Eurocentrism. How could the sub-saharan Mali and Songhay Empire developed isolated and created one of the premier learning centers of the islamic world, the pre-eminent civilization of the time? Her trade with the muslim world was significant and crucial. How could the sub-saharan Swahili states have developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world when it was trading with Persia, India, and China? In Great Zimbabwe Chinese artifacts have been found which would indicate trade with China via the Swahili states. Most of these subsaharan civilizations were trading with Asia. If Axum is sub-saharan, how do one explain her connection to Arabia, especially the Southern part if she developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world? If Nubia in Sudan, part of Sub-saharan Africa developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world, how did she conquer Egypt and part of the Levant? Nubia, sub-saharan,was a major player in Meditteranean power politics in the Ancient world. If Nubia is sub-saharan then sub-saharan Africa had civilization before Europe. If significant civilizations in sub-saharan Africa had contacts with other civilization outside the continents how did "the peoples South of the sahara developed in relative isolation from the rest of the world"? Omniposcent ( talk) 04:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Sub-saharan is absolute. The fact that the Mali and the Songhay empires(sub saharan) were major learning center of the Islamic world and her scholars were sought after throughout the islamic world, how is that "relative isolation" because of the sahara? Mali and Songhay seem to be part of that world. Europe was in her middle age, she was more isolated from the "rest of the world." Nubia(sub saharan)had all the features of nile valley civilization and conquered Egypt and part of the Levant, how is that "relative isolation"? She was a player, thereby intimately connected. The "rest of the world" for example Europe was backwards and primitive. Greece was Europe's first light of civilization. Nubia's(sub saharan) antiquity is that of Egypt, thousands of years before Greece. The Swahili States(sub saharan)was trading with Persia, India, and China. How is that "relative isolation." The "rest of the world" for example Europe was in her dark and middle age, she was more isolated than the Swahilli states(sub saharan). One uses this Eurasian terminology both in a cultural context and as a continent. One must compare apples with apples, continent with continent. You can't compare a continent with a subregion(especially artificially constructed), Eurasia vs sub-saharan Africa. About 2000 years of civilization (writing, domesticated animals, agriculture) there is no Europe in the equation of Eurasia only in Africa(including Nubia sub-saharan Africa) and Asia(Eurasia). Omniposcent ( talk) 04:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree 100%,the baltic tribes of europe had no written language until the 16th century,and many germanic,scandinavian,slavic and celtic tribes[britons or celtic iberians especially who constitute most of the 'new world'] were not literate until the advent of roman/aegean influence.SSA were isolates but much of europe was equally tribal living in wooden,wicker,arched timber thatched huts - Roman and Aegean peoples being the only "europeans" to have "created" civilization.
58.178.6.249 (
talk) 02:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Someone removed Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia from the Sub saharan country section. Please don't change the definition because it doesn't fit ones sacred belief. Omniposcent ( talk) 21:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
The lone exception to this rule has traditionally been and still is to a large extent the Horn of Africa, home to the racially, linguistically and culturally distinct people of Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea and Djibouti and eastern-most terminus of the Sahara desert. [1]
I have removed this line. This is original research. Second, the reference does not support the claim. If one scan the Western mainstream and African periodicals Sudan, Ethiopia, and Somalia are part of East Africa, thereby sub-saharan. There are 41 countries in sub saharan Africa, not 38. Racially if we are talking about phenotypes Ethiopians/Eritrea are quite distinct from Somalis and are culturally distinct too. Why not say West Africans are distinct? Blacks in the sahel say Wolof, Fulani, Mandinke can be physically distinct too blacks in the forest areas like Yoruba, Igbo, Ashanti. Both regions are quite culturally distinct. Linguistically the Afro-asiatic is also spoken in West Africa, Hausa for example. The Horn of Africa is not distinct in that manner. If you are a Eurocentrist, the term was defined by you. Please don't change the definition because your own definition has proven you wrong. Your notion of primitive sub saharan Africa does not hold. An inferior Black race is the motive, it also does not hold. Omniposcent ( talk) 01:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
"Nubia(sub saharan)had all the features of nile valley civilization and conquered Egypt and part of the Levant, how is that "relative isolation"? She was a player, thereby intimately connected. The "rest of the world" for example Europe was backwards and primitive. Greece was Europe's first light of civilization. Nubia's(sub saharan) antiquity is that of Egypt, thousands of years before Greece."
It seems this little comment has offended the Eurocentric mind and sensibilities. We are changing the definitions because our beliefs are threatened. The article now has conflicting information. The first map of sub-saharan Africa shows Sudan as part of sub-saharan Africa. Another map shows her as being part of North Africa and in the country list Sudan is under East Africa with a North Africa designation. The map that puts Sudan in North Africa has a UN reference. Is Sudan North African or Sub-saharan? In the UN website Sudan appears in both the Sub-saharan and North African country list. On the UN website there is conflicting information.
http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation3/menu/advanced.asp http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/htmain.htm
Sudan is a sub-saharan country. The World Bank class Sudan as a sub-saharan country http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/eastafr.pdf. Scanning all Western mainstream periodicals New York Times, Washington Post, The Guardian, etc., Sudan is classed a sub-saharan nation. African periodicals( http://allafrica.com) class her as East African, thereby sub-saharan. All general histories of Sudan classes her as Sub-saharan. References within this very article classes her as sub-saharan http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/images/subsaharan.jpg http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/subsaharanafrica. Omniposcent ( talk) 20:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
In the East African section I am putting Sudan back under general East Africa. To put Sudan under North Africa contradicts the meaning of Sub-saharan. We are dealing with broad geographic regions not economic unions or regions. Second, Sub-saharan civilizations were Nubia, Axum, Swahili States, Wagadu (Ghana Empire), Mali Empire, Nok, Songhai Empire, Kanem, Bornu, Benin, Great Zimbabwe, and The Zulu Empire. Wikipedia's policy states one must edit and discuss any changes. Omniposcent ( talk) 02:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The u.n only has sudan part of north africa is because of politcal reasons because of the large arab presence in sudan,but sudan geographicaly is a part of sub saharan africa/black africa-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 21:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
"Sub-Saharan" actually is used mostly in political and economic contexts, where the units are countries, in spite of the term itself referring to an environmental feature, so it is not irrelevant to list regional organizations. Also, whether Sudan is considered part of North Africa, East Africa, both, or neither does not determine whether it is considered part of Sub-Saharan Africa, or vice versa.
In any case Southern Sudan is planning independence in 2011, and will be sub-Saharan by any definition, and probably no longer included in North Africa by anyone. The rest of Sudan will likely continue to be an intermediate case like Mauritania. -- JWB ( talk) 22:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Sub-Saharan is not just used mostly in an economic or political context. It is widely used in the racial context mainly "Black Africa." This is why the article is much argued. The distance sub regions of sub-saharan Africa have very little economic or political context. What is the political and economic context between west Africa and southern Africs? None. The only context is in a geographic sense, south of the sahara and the racial context "black Africa". The latter being why some countries are not exactly south of the sahara. I was illustrating based on the preponderance of the data, the Western mainstream press, the African press, and the traditional historical writing on Sudan places her as "Sub-saharan", "black Africa." Very few sources cite Sudan as North African(only conflicting UN and IMF sources). Here is a quote from the president of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, an Arab, in rejecting troops to the Darfur region.
"They want to colonize Africa, starting with the first sub-Saharan country to gain its independence(Sudan). If they want to start colonization in Africa, let them choose a different place."
He never said it was North African. Eurocentrist play semantic games with the word Arab and obscure African history. In the Western mind an Arab is a white guy from the Middle East or from Saudi Arabia. Arab is not a race. For centuries Black Africans have been taking on Arab identities. In African history an Arab could be a Black African or a Black African Arab. A large percentage of Muhammed's earliest converts to Islam were Black Africans, Ethiopians.
A perfect illustration of all of these points. The Westerm press portrays the conflict in Sudan as Arabs engaging in ethnic cleansing of native Black Africans to the South and West. Those Arabs are native Black Africans. In fact, I have quite a few friends from northern Sudan, who are Arabs. I usually tease them by saying "I thought you were white." They usually burst out laughing or usually crack a grin. They typically explain to me they are Arabs but they are also black Africans. That is why I like to use the word Islamic instead of Arab. Omniposcent ( talk) 01:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Sub-Saharan Africa is synonymous with Black Africa, although the region does in fact share a good deal of economic and political context.
"Arab" has multiple meanings, but the most relevant modern one is simply people whose native language is Arabic.
Personally I would not say "North African" is Sudan's most prominent identity, yet some sources like the UN Geoscheme classify it as both North African and sub-Saharan without any contradiction between the two, and the article should cover the various major viewpoints. -- JWB ( talk) 04:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
West Africa, especially the Sahelian region, historically has had more economic and political context with North Africa than say Southern Africa. The tran-saharan trade in gold and salt made Berber cities on the Meditteranean and Sahelian societies interdependent. Berber cities became more prosperous and strong by connecting West African goods to the Meditteranean/ European world during Phoenician, Roman, and Arab periods. Sahelian societies became prosperous and strong by exporting gold and importing salt. Most of the gold in the Meditteranean/European world came from the trans-saharan trade. Morocco invaded Songhay to control that gold trade. With Europeans bypassing the trans-saharan routes via the Atlantic, the signifigance of those coastal Berber cities diminished. We see a similiar setup with Egypt(North Africa) and Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). Nubia (Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan) provided gold and other sub-saharan goods to Egypt. It was one of the reason Egypt(North Africa) invaded Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). Some will say that Nubia is a carbon copy of Egypt. Yes later on in its history Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan) copied Egypt(North Africa) but when Egypt(North Africa)was first being settled she was copying Nubia(Sudan, black Africa, sub-saharan). If Nubia is not black thereby not sub-saharan and not in Sudan one must provide proof of the "various major veiwpoints" that backs this up, besides one U.N. map that does not explain itself. Southern Africa had more political and economic context with East Africa, especially Great Zimbabwe with the Swahili States than say West Africa. All of Africa not just Sub-saharan had great political and economic context with each other, especially the region that was close to each other. Omniposcent ( talk) 18:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm mostly talking about the modern period, which is where the term "sub-Saharan" is most used.
There was also a period before the Saharan trade - the camel arrived only about 2000 years ago, the horse a few thousand more. And even farther back than that, there was a wet Sahara period, though relatively short. See Saharan pump theory.
Who is arguing that Nubia is not black or sub-Saharan? Again, this is separate from the UN regional divisions, which are not based on race or ancient history.
I have no problem with a return of the term "Black Africa" to this article. It is synonymous and still often seen in discussions of culture, art, etc. as opposed to modern politics and economy. However some people seem to feel it is derogatory and have removed it. -- JWB ( talk) 20:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The term sub-saharan is used from the beginning of the Sahara to the present, with the same racial overtones. There seems to be an over-emphasis on sub-saharan importation. The horse was not domesticated in Europe. It was domesticated in Central Asia, this knowledge was then imported to Europe. Most of the significant domesticated plants and animals in the Eurasian model were domesticated in Asia and North Africa. Like sub-saharan Africa, Europe imported most of the knowledge. We see the importation emphasis with writing. We can conclude that modern day writing is a very African enterprise. After all the Latin script, the Cyrillic script, Greek script, Hebrew script, Arabic script(largely exported to sub-saharan Africa) and other Asian scripts are derived from the Phoenician script. The Phoenician script was derived from proto-Canaanite script. Proto-Canaanite from Egyptian Hieroglyphs. The Egyptians were the first to develop an alphabet based written language. Egyptian culture is African, in the sub-saharan sense (no debate here). You asked, "Who is arguing that Nubia is not black or sub-Saharan?" I will let you answer your own question:
I don't know what criteria the UN used to classify Sudan as North African. All I know North Africa and close surrounding Sub-saharan regions are economically and politically connected "in modern times." For example water can be big issue politically and economically between Egypt(North Africa) and Sudan(Sub-saharan) in "modern times." Water issues can determine if Egypt will support troops to Darfur or not. I accept Black Africa as Sub-saharan. This does not mean that I accept North Africa as white Africa. North Africans are phenotypically to varied for that category and genetics does not support this. I thought that the one drop rule was only an American phonomena. It seems to be the view of Europe too, in scanning mainstream European periodicals. If that is the case, using the one drop rule, all of North Africa is Black. Omniposcent ( talk) 16:23, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't see anything on "importation" in the article, or how your digression on Europe is relevant to this article. Europe imported the things you mentioned, nobody disputes this or even considers it an issue.
Most likely the UN put Sudan in a region with North Africa because of common language and because of current transport and economic links. There is little commerce between Sudan and its neighbors to the west, south and east. Most trade is via Egypt or the Red Sea. -- JWB ( talk) 09:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the first Africa map from the List of Countries. It does not give info on sub-saharan Africa. I have also removed the second map from the list of countries because Sudan is not normally considered part of North Africa, it is considered sub-saharan. Plus, this is about Sub-saharan Africa not North Africa. She can be excluded. I have also place the second top map in the List of Countries section. It completely defines sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 02:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
"Generally, sub-Saharan Africa is the poorest region in the world, suffering from the effects of colonialism, economic mismanagement, local corruption. and inter-ethnic conflict."
I have added colonialism to the list because inter-ethnic conflict and artificial political structures introduced during colonial times are behind a lot of Africa's political and economic problems. Some would argue corruption is not bad. Many Asian countries were corrupt but were able to develop economically. Transfering development funds to Swiss bank accounts or to foreign banks is the culprit. Taking developmental funds outside a country is the culprit. Omniposcent ( talk) 02:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
It contrasts with North Africa, which is Egyptian and Berber. The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara proper and Sub-Saharan Africa.
The Horn of Africa and Southern Sudan are technically part of Sub-Saharan Africa, but nevertheless show strong Middle Eastern ( Islamic) influence. citation needed
Also Nubia is part of sub-saharan Africa. Again, if one makes changes please announce why and support your argument. The sahara was an effective barrier not and insurmountable barrier. Before camels, the donkey and the oxen were used. The camel made the length of crossing shorter. Most of the gold used in the Meditteranean to mint coins came from the trans-saharan trade. Omniposcent ( talk) 21:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I am removing this map.
Before one makes a change please announce the change and explain why.
Southern Sudan (autonomous region of Sudan with independence referendum in 2011)
Last time. We have had this discussion. The majority of the data supports ALL of Sudan as sub-saharan. This notation implies that only the Southern part of Sudan is Sub-saharan. This perspective is not documented. Second, you are engaging in original research. I have read all forms of African Historiography, from liberal to clinical cambridge press history, all Western mainstream African historiography. None have divided up Sudan to the South as just Sub-saharan. This is the pathology that exist. The perverse need to restrict "black" African achievements. Some find African achievements in civilizaton threatening. Are we going to have a debate as to whether Nubians were black? For the records all pre-roman, pre-christian, pre-islamic Berber and Egyptian culture shared the same cultural themes as those of sub-saharan Africa. They were Africans. Omniposcent ( talk) 06:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
My edits was to emphasized that it was part of East Africa thereby sub-saharan. Omniposcent ( talk) 09:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I am removing this map. The article is about sub-saharan Africa. It should reflect the language of only Sub-saharan Africa. The article is not about language families of Africa. That is the appropriate context of this map.
Omniposcent ( talk) 06:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't use it. I guess I will have to construct my own map of sub-saharan africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 07:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
What happen to the previous map that was available? I could not locate it in wiki commons. Omniposcent ( talk) 07:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Omniposcent, your statements come across completely confused. Please try to make clear what you mean. The map illustrates that Niger-Congo and Khoi-San are purely Sub-Saharan phyla, but that "northeastern Sub-Saharan Africa" (i.e. Horn of Africa plus Southern Sudan) have Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic populations. This goes to show that the Horn of Africa culturally is closer to Saharan Africa than the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa. dab (𒁳) 09:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Dbachmann I think sir the confusion is on your side. You have made an entirely confused statement. You have introduced an entirely new concept Saharan Africa in relation to Sub-saharan Africa. Let me bring clarity to your unclear mind. The article is about sub-saharan Africa. Would it not be nice to list all sub-saharan countries and then illustrate all the language families in Sub-saharan Africa by putting in those pretty colors.
I thank you for the reference sir. I will refer you to it too but I hope you might not need it. Please sir next time place that message on my personal page. This is the discussion page about Sub-saharan Africa. I hope you know that. We can get confuse sometimes. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The article is about sub-saharan Africa, this map would be more appropriate under the article Africa or world distribution of Islam and Christianity. The information in the caption is also wrong. The horn of Africa is predominately Christian and predominantly Othodox, very rare in Africa and a testament to her early adoption of Christianity. Plus the Sahel region in West Africa is predominantly muslim. The Sahel is the exception to the Christian rule in sub-saharan Africa, not the Horn of Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 18:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
This article has a problem with vandalism. One is deleting and making fundamental changes and not stating their reasons. Nubia is part of sub-saharan Africa. Please don't remove it again without discussion. Removing it would constitute vandalism. Omniposcent ( talk) 18:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Nubia was not just medieval sir. Ghana was not just Medieval. Aksum was not just medieveal. In Europe there was just 2 ancient civilizations, Rome and Greece. I hope listing the number of medieval states in Europe is not bias towards her history. There is the racial component to sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Nubia is a historical territory in what is now southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. It is ostensibly not part of Sub-Saharan Africa. If you want to insist, the burden is on you to present a reliable source stating "Nubia is in Sub-Saharan Africa". dab (𒁳) 07:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Well sir we have had this discussion. If you read all the other discussions sir, the burden has been met. You have not read it, that is why you are engaging in vandalism. I suspect one of your compatriots have not read it too. Machinations are a two way street. It corrupts the process. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I have always found the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" to somewhat Northern-centric and offensive. In what sense is Africa "beneath" Europe ? No-one calls Europe "Sub-Mediterrean Europe" but North at the top of all maps, atlases and globes is entirely arbitrary. I don't regard the people of Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Angola, Malawi etc as 'sub' anything or anywhere. The older terminology was "Black Africa" as opposed to "Arabian Africa", which I think was better. I would like a note to this affect somewhere. What do other people think? SmokeyTheCat •TALK• 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering when Sir Paul would show his head. Sir for the records it's a lot of information but not relevant to sub-saharan Africa. Omniposcent ( talk) 19:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Dbachman this has been done. All the edit I have done has been explained. You have not read the discussion. You are editing without explaining. You are introducing concept like the sahel is a transition point to subsaharan Africa. The sahel is part of sub-saharan Africa. Your reference is not clear. It does not prove your case. I have removed it.
The Sahel is the transitional zone between the Sahara proper and sub-Saharan Africa. [2]
Big pigeon hides behind small pigeon, sacrifices small pigeon's name. Debachmann I am impress. Your mastery of the English language is impeccable, like an Englishman. You make feel like I am talking to a "PHD." It does not define "the belt of humid savannas to the south" as Sub-saharan. It does not define sub-saharan. It only defines ecological zones. You are wasting my time. The reference does not support the claim. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Secondly the Horn of Africa is predominantly Orthodox Christian but because of strong muslim presence, I will go with your exception rule of Sub-saharan Africa.
Your source is wrong. I literally calculated the population of the Horn of Africa and exaggerated the muslim population. I assumed all of Eritrea, Djibouti, and Somalia as muslim. I did not have data for the muslim percentage for Eritrea, which is very unlikely that she is entirely muslim. There was a 50/50 breakdown. If you read my edits , I specifically kept the section where the horn of africa has strong muslim influence. Eritrea is not entirely muslim. Remember she share a common past with Ethiopia and like Ethiopia speaks one of the few semitic languages in Africa. For the records data is from the CIA Factbook. Again you waste my time. Little pigeon sacrifices for big pigeon. I would never let anyone exploit my name. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.
But I will add the Sahel, Swahili coast, instead southern Sudan change that to Sudan.
Sir you stated:
all I did was add more information, the Sahel, Swahili coast. They "nevertheless show strong Middle Eastern (Islamic) influence." You mentioned nothing about Arab League here. I don't mind including all sub-saharan countries that are part of the Arab League. I am repeating myself. You are wasting my time. More information the merrier. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Nubia is a sub-saharan civilization.
There is racial component to definition of sub-saharan Africa, not that I accept it. It is part of your traditional mainstream notion of "Black Africa." You are going against tradition. This has been stated before. I am repeating myself. It is sickening to me that some peoples diapers have been paid by these thieving African Dictators and now these people seem to hold a pathological contempt for the African and relish in the downtrodden state of sub-saharan Africa. That is what happens when one steals from ones own people for antoher. Omniposcent ( talk) 00:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I can do better than that. You should have done a search on Kush. Kush is Nubia at her greatest. The Nubia that was South of Egypt and North of Sudan. Kush was sub-saharan.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/research_projects/merowe_dam_project.aspx http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/530866/
go ahead and google kush + subsaharan--lots and lots of references.
What do you mean "North African" civilization? Last I checked Ancient Egypt had more in common with the societies to the south not the Northwest or the rest of North Africa. You waste my time. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I make a fuss about it because your definition defies the definition of Sub-saharan, both in the strict geographical sense and in the notion of "Black Africa." Omniposcent ( talk) 10:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
btw, I have no objection to mentioning the Sahel here. A detailed account of the region will of course belong on Sahel. I do think it is possible to present the Sahel as the northernmost part of Sub-Saharan Africa, no problem. In fact, if we're going to look at subdivisions beyond the West/East/Central/Southern scheme, SSA might be described as consisting of:
dab (𒁳) 10:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
What makes you think i have a problem with that. More information the better, as long as it is accurate no poving, no original research. Omniposcent ( talk) 22:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
You and your compatriots started editing this page without discussion. You included original research, wrong data, poving. You seem to have a history of doing that when it comes to African topics, which indicates to me ideological attachement. Just as you have referred to me wikipedian policy let me refer you to the same, WP:NPOV, WP:TIGERS, WP:SOAP. Omniposcent ( talk) 19:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The Swahili culture was not colonization of Persians and Arabs of Africa. The Swahili culture came about due to indigenous African societies trading with Arabs and Persians. Omniposcent ( talk) 10:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Sound to me the "puerile ravings" are from you. What are you some neo nazi, white supremacist Eurocentrist bent on wikipedian domination. I have met a character like you before. He thought he was so literate. Frankly all that came out of him was hot air. If literate meant being him certainly that did not amount to being much, personally nothing. I take that back he might have made a good poet or writer of imaginative fiction. The guy was a bit of a "nutter",all the different personalities he took on. This guy needed counseling. Personally, I think the guy needed a girlfriend. I doubt he was getting his groove on. PhoneyRat ( talk) 18:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Comparing Afrocentrist to Neo-nazis, mass murderers on that scale. Last I checked no afrocentrist has ever advocated killing any human on the basis of race, creed, sexual orientation. No Afrocentrist has advocated killing flies. Admin Dbachmann let me refer you to Wikipedian policy:
WP:NOT, WP:DUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:TIGERS , WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP , WP:POINT and WP:OMGWTFBBQ
PhoneyRat ( talk) 18:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry, your English doesn't quite parse, but were you trying to say that I had "compared Afrocentrists to Neo-nazis"? I have done no such thing. It is you who has brought up "neo nazi, white supremacist Eurocentrist bent on wikipedian domination", and I have been chiding you for it. PhoneyRat, this is surreal. There can be no discussion until you at least manage to form grammatical English sentences. In a second step, you may want to arrange such sentences into coherent statements. In a next step, such statements may be extended into meaningful debate. I don't think we can help you acquire such skills on Wikipedia though, you'll need to look elsewhere. -- dab (𒁳) 07:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Now I see the revert term deleting info, see old discussion and respect teh rules of this site. sourced content cannot be deleted just because someone doesnt like it. There must be a discussion and i dont think an entire critic of a problematic term can be removed. It is well written well sourced from places which hold to an African authentic perspective which is also the position of the AU (see how Sub-Africa is treated--they dont even use the term in their published material). -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 14:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Writing an article that quotes predominantly negative data about Sub-saharan Africa is not NPOV, that is propaganda. You forgot the Egyptians and the Nubians Admin Dbachman(aka dabs). They were more ancient players in the Mediterranean than the Greeks and the Romans(hatchlings). They were certainly "circum-Saharan." North African societies Phoenician/Berber grew and prospered because trans-saharan trade. You do understand the golden rule , the man with the gold makes the rules. Sub-saharan societes certainly had a lot of gold. North Afican cities had the ports and connection to ship it. During the Arabic and Islamic phase with the exception of Andalusia one could say the major "pathways" was more "circum-saharan" than "circum-Mediterranean." Admin Dbachman let me refer you to Wikipedian policy:
WP:NOT, WP:DUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:TIGERS , WP:NPOV, WP:SOAP , WP:POINT , WP:OMGWTFBBQ PhoneyRat ( talk) 19:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, you are not making any sense. You want to include "criticism" of the term? Then cite notable critics. Criticism of the term used to refer to SSA doesn't change the topic, or the thing referred to by the term. Just like the islands remain the unchanged if you call them " British Isles" or " These Isles". If you can cite some government rejecting the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" just like the Irish government refuses to use "British Isles", by all means let us know. dab (𒁳) 07:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Let's review the "criticism" then:
lol, " balkanization"? This chap is implying that Africa is less diverse, or more unified, than the Balkans? The Journal of Third World Studies is "A scholarly and provocative periodical on Third World Problems and Issues". In this instance, they clearly opted for erring on the side of "provocation". If you like, we can add a brief note that there has been some political noise about the term in Afrocentrist literature, but that's hardly the topic of this article, which is addressing the region, not the terminology. -- dab (𒁳) 07:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I have edited this from white to light skinned, its a tiny fraction of North Africans that would consider themselves as white often with the help of "skin beautifying products and blemishes,dark spot removal products", nor would they be considered "white" elsewhere in the world except in the US census.The skin colour of North Africans ranges from olive to dark brown to black. Please don't use Wikipedia for racialism.Claiming Egyptians to be "white" is often used in order for Europeans to claim their great cultural achievements as theirs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.176.0.207 ( talk) 16:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
the entire point of mentioning "black" and "white" in the lead is in order to explain the common name "Black Africa". This isn't an article about race. Citing Coon as a reference must be about as surreal as it gets. Please. "Caucasoid" is an obsolete racialist classification. "White" is just a description of an individual's skin type. There is a huge difference. "Caucasoid" carries all sorts of ideological baggage. It is very simple. "Black Africa" (Sudan) is so called because its population is "black", compared to the population of North Africa, which is not part of "Black Africa". If you want to discuss concepts of scientific racism, please find another venue. If you want to debate the inclusion of Mediterranean populations under "white", please go to Talk:White people. -- dab (𒁳) 12:45, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate the need for this discussion in general (although it has been seen on Wikipedia before), but may I point out that this isn't the appropriate place for it, this is the talkpage for the Sub-Saharan Africa article. Please take it to user talkspace. -- dab (𒁳) 18:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
this is for color terminology for race. Obviously (really) neither "black" nor "white" people literally have black or white skin. I do not suppose this needs any pointing out here. The historical term for the "dark whites" of North Africa is Melanochroi, and yes, they are included under white, since otherwise the terminology of "Black Africa" wouldn't make any sense. Please, this is just about conventional terminology. It boils down to "people south of the Sahara tend to have significantly darker skin", ok? Historically, this was labelled in terms of "black" vs. "white". The distinction is still in use colloquially, and even if lots of caveats apply, it is still the origin of the terminology under discussion. Don't create WP:WIKIDRAMA over nothing at all. -- dab (𒁳) 18:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
once again, if you are interested in this question, go and read color terminology for race, and discuss the details or request references at Talk:color terminology for race. You are literally on the wrong page here. -- dab (𒁳) 18:40, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Ooh, so this is really about the race of the Ancient Egyptians. Well I never. It is hardly my fault that you refuse to listen to reason for ideological reasons best known to yourself. So you believe "Black Africa" is called "Black" in contrast to "Lighter Skinned". Wth? This would suggest it should be called "Darker Skinned Africa". Give us a break. -- dab (𒁳) 10:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
You know what is anachronistic? Or cheap rhetorics? To bring the Ancient Egyptians into a discussion on a term (Black Africa, remember) that isn't claimed by anyone to date back more than a couple of centuries. Just out of curiosity, are you perhaps an "African-American" citizen of the United States? Because I don't think anyone not steeped in African-American racialist ideology could bring up the Ancient Egyptians in a context such as this. This article isn't about US demographics, you should read Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. -- dab (𒁳) 10:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Another important thing to note, besides the looseness of the term "Caucasoid" which can and has been applied to millions of non-white people, is that "white" in North Africa does not mean the same thing as "white" in European countries. In North Africa, "white" people refers to lighter brown skin. Not "white" the same way Europeans meant and mean the word.
In those areas Arabs are referred to as "white" while Europeans are referred to as "pink". It has nothing to do with American identity politics and everything to do with the fact that North Africans don't view themselves as "white" in any sense that would be equivalent to the European sense of the word. Ethiopians call themselves "brown" and call central Africans "black". That doesn't mean they view themselves as less African or less "black" (in the Western sense of the word) than other Africans. Full Shunyata ( talk) 04:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
First apologies for an entire new category, the edit function being unfriendly for long responses, my thoughts were easier to put in seperately.
I also agree with Dbachmann's notes re colour supra.
But as to Shunyata, I find your response rather sad.
First, you might try checking your assumption that those who disagree with your specific understanding of Sub Saharan Africa and Racial issues (of which it is not a piece), are “Eurocentric” or “White Supremacist” [an implied assumption] or the like.
But to substance:
As to North African ‘colour prejudice’ (I use the phrase colour prejudice advisedly as ‘racial prejudice’ I think is both analytically and factually wrong in framing), well of course I have ‘cites’ – I mean besides my own decade living and working in the region (as well as Sub Saharan Africa), and my own family with its decidedly international and multi-colour nature, but those are not cites, I am merely indicating my distaste for your simplistic and American racialist centric whinging.
As to the real issue, that is the native North African perception of difference from Sub Saharan Africa, rather obviously this is going to be situational and like all human ethnic and ‘racial’ (or perceived ethno-‘racial’ differences) dependent on relatives reference / situation.
However, it is bizarre, bordering on willfully ignorant to request ‘proof’ given extensive on-wiki cites that you can follow on: Haratin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haratin (a complex conversation, but note the issues of colour / race discrimination); Gnaoua: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnawa (I would note the two articles together help show the complex colour perceptions in the Maghreb); Nanj for the Machreq & the Egyptian and Sudanese portions of the Abeed articles: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeed ); Discussions of colour / racial prejudice in the Maghreb w respect to the following pages: Slavery in [modern] Mauretania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mauritania Hassane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassane - a Beidan group
With respect to validating my own observations of colour prejudice and the presumption (on the part of locals) of difference between Sub Saharan Africa I would cite the following news articles: BBC: Are Sub Saharan Africans welcome, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3433737.stm Attacking Europe’s border fences, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3604519.stm, also re Algeria http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7125746.stm; Libyan anti Black African riots: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/955731.stm; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/975491.stm;
I would add in addition to the Wiki articles and works cited in the Wiki articles (which I repeat for your benefit:
Ennaji has a very fine examination of Slavery in 18th and 19th century Morocco CITE that outlines. Also Hunwick has another work that escapes me presently, but is very good on the emergence of colour prejudice in North Africa (or the Southern Mediterannean Basin, which is a better historical and ecological zone). One can see from these discussions the emergence of colour prejudice driven by factors that had zero to do with “race” but all about changing power dynamics – where the ‘white’ Saqaliba’ (Slavic slaves) or European slaves gained in prominence or social status as their ‘home’ regions integrated into the Indo-Mediterranean economic zone (to exaggerate slightly).
Otherwise, I find your cite to the note regarding Mali importing scholars from Maghreb etc. to be ridiculous. Confident people without complexes recognize cross pollination. One can (and should) write the same thing about the Maghreb. The Maghreb imported scholars from the east (as well as initially importing and then exchanging scholars with Islamic Spain, the flow usually being determined by, surprise, which region was more economically prosperous and stable). The Sahalian empires were an indigenous development that prospered (as did all Europe, Eastern Asia) from neighbouring developments, and built on them. The Malians imported scholars to support their agenda, like Indian Mughal Emperors, Central Asian Emperors, and yes European Kings of various regions (as Europe is a bullshite region) imported scholars. Reaction in this area merely says you do not know your history and lack confidence in your thesis. There is nothing at all ‘Eurocentric’ in noting that Timbouctou borrowed / imported professors from Fez, any more than there is in saying Fez kicked off by borrowing from the East – which it did. It is entirely reasonable to write that “primary archival research needs to be done to deepen our understanding of local scholarship, given very limited primary research to date, but recent discoveries of Arabic and Ajami records promise to expand the written record and deepen our knowledge of indigenous – Islamic synergies as a scholarly culture developed.”
One could add, that this was similar to, if harder due to ecological factors (a big fucking desert) to the way (modern Western) Europe profited from West Asian emergence of civilization.
Finally, I would note that I personally find it distasteful that the apparently American Afrocentristic editors, are so quick to imply or outright accuse editors who push back on their views of being “Eurocentric” or implied racists. As I spent much of 2007 fighting a now banned editor of Tunisian origin with genuinely Euro – or rather Mediterranean centric – views and clearly a racist, I find your implied accusations offensive, above all as you seem to have a low level of information on colour issues in Africa. I would like to note, by the way, that I fully support a balanced and well-informed corrective to genuinely racist commentary that highlights the genuinely impressive achievements of the Sahelian empires, that to my mind need no exaggeration and refute ridiculous theses of biological inferiority.
You might ask if you should not check your American baggage at the door and not ask how can Wikipedia present real issues well. American colour prejudice is a concern, but it is not the only one in the world.( collounsbury ( talk) 22:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC))
Full Shunyata ( talk · contribs) is the textbook US American Afrocentrist angry young man: radically ideologized, racialist, aggressive and clueless. I have seen these accounts trying to manipulate articles literally for years, check the huge archives here. It is pointless to debate them. Just point them to policy, and revert them when they violate policy. Wikipedia isn't a debate club or a self-help group. -- dab (𒁳) 09:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The activities of soph whatever are very against wiki policies, what Afro centric sources? What is Afro-Centric. they are Pan-Africanist.Not one single ref is Afrocentric, and even if it was, where in wikipedia is Afro-centric views banned, are Eurocentric views banned? clearly not. This is a site for all valid points to be expressed. see [3]-- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 07:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
according to the edits of Islam is only dominant in East Africa. However according to CIA fact book 50% of Nigeria is Muslim, 1 in 5 Africans are Nigerian. So just looking at Nigeria how can you account for Christianity being dominant in East Africa alone. If you pick a flawed map and then start a discussion based upon it you will get wrong results. In any event what is the point of this page? -- Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ ( talk) 07:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)