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We don't use "X is a term for Y" because of WP:REFERS. We describe how it actually relates to the topic, directly without beating around the bush. Elizium23 ( talk) 05:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
WP:REFERS says that the reason why "x is a term for y" is inappropriate is because the article is about x, not usage of the term "x". However, the article about the Congress members who voted to stop the electoral college vote count is 2021 United States Electoral College vote count. This article is about those Congress members being referred to as the sedition caucus. What's different between this article and the one for the squad is that this one's section titles are "Background", Use of the term", and "In other legislators" The Squad article's sections are "Name", "History", and "membership". Clearly, this article is about the term "sedition caucus" more so with the caucus itself.
Had this article been about the actual representatives and not the term, I would have supported deletion on account that a caucus that is "not an actual organized group" with membership based on a single rubber-stamp vote is not notable, and that the title makes the page an Attack page. But since the page is about the fact that other people refer to the objection supporters as the "sedition caucus", the purpose of the page is to describe the accusations of sedition, not accuse the members of sedition. while this article could use improvement in the NPOV department, an article about an accusation is not an attack page.
Speaking of NPOV, "Sedition Caucus ... is a term for Republican members..." is more neutral than "Sedition Caucus ... consists of Republican members..." They don't identify as the "Sedition Caucus"; it is only a name people use to attack them politically. Wikipedia agreeing that there is a sedition caucus is also partaking in the accusation. While current consensus is that calling conspiracy theories baseless does not violate NPOV if reliable sources call them baseless, which has led Wikipedia to side with the democrats on whether the 2021 election was stolen, per BLPPUBLIC we should say that the congress members are accused of being a sedition caucus, not that they are one.
Yes, "X is a term for Y" should not normally be used. However, this is a case where WP:REFERS contradicts WP:BLPPUBLIC. Thus, this is an uncommon situation in which we must choose which rule to ignore. Ignoring BLP-Public results in the lead accusing people of sedition, while ignoring REFERS results in the lead accuratly prefacing the article as one about the term, not about the caucus. My stance is that ignoring REFERS would make Wikipedia better. Caleb M1 ( talk) 21:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi @ AllegedlyHuman:,
The section that was recently removed, appeared to have been removed due to concerns regarding the poor quality reference used, namely the NY Post. Here is a proposed replacement for the section replacing the NY Post ref with one from Politico. Comments, agreements, disagreements?
On April 26th, 2021 representative Liz Cheney stated that, "I do think that some of our candidates who led the charge, particularly the senators who led the unconstitutional charge, not to certify the election, you know, in my view, that's disqualifying." [1] Section three of the 14th amendment of the US Constitution states that, people who have taken an oath to support the U.S. Constitution (shall be barred) from holding federal office if they “engaged in insurrection or rebellion” against the Constitution. [2]
Silly-boy-three ( talk) 07:01, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
References
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because it is the WP:COMMONNAME of a widely used political term. The article documents nothing other than the term itself, compare with axis of evil. There are many high-quality reliable sources in the article which speak to the term's notability. -- AllegedlyHuman ( talk) 02:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Per WP:BLPCRIME, it seems like a bad move for us to be in the business of associating public figures (or private figures) with the federal crimes of sedition or seditious conspiracy without benefit of arrest, charges, trial, or conviction. Remove the list of names. Elizium23 ( talk) 03:56, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
"Let's recall that my AfD was because in my judgment the content of this article is sufficiently covered in other articles."
"The way the article reads generally asserts sedition as if it were true rather than merely alleged. This is why I think the article should have been deleted, but oh well."AllegedlyHuman ( talk) 03:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
if this is mainly about BLPCRIME, I don't see it-- this is not mainly about BLPCRIME, it's about removing the list of names. The topic here is an operable change, or lack thereof, that would lead to a desired state of the article. So would the article be better with the list or without the list, according to you (genuinely asking)? — Alalch Emis ( talk)
this is not mainly about BLPCRIME- the proposal at the top of this section is above is mainly about BLPCRIME, but fair enough. My position is that as long as this is going to be a stand-alone article, it should probably have the list. If we remove the list, we might as well merge it back into the parent topic and redirect it. As whether it's merged/redirected is probably outside the scope of this particular proposal, I'm in favor of keeping the list. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
I propose to merge Sedition Caucus into 2021 United States Electoral College vote count. I think that the content in the Sedition Caucus article can easily be explained in the context of 2021 United States Electoral College vote count, and the latter article is of a reasonable size that the merging of the former article will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned.
To keep the discussion in one place, do not comment in this section. Instead comment in the discussion at Talk:2021 United States Electoral College vote count#Merger proposal. 18:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️
This article was nominated for deletion on 22 June 2021. The result of the discussion was keep. |
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article is an example of WP:WORDISSUBJECT coverage — it deals with a phrase (political slur) as an encyclopedic subject in and of itself. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
We don't use "X is a term for Y" because of WP:REFERS. We describe how it actually relates to the topic, directly without beating around the bush. Elizium23 ( talk) 05:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
WP:REFERS says that the reason why "x is a term for y" is inappropriate is because the article is about x, not usage of the term "x". However, the article about the Congress members who voted to stop the electoral college vote count is 2021 United States Electoral College vote count. This article is about those Congress members being referred to as the sedition caucus. What's different between this article and the one for the squad is that this one's section titles are "Background", Use of the term", and "In other legislators" The Squad article's sections are "Name", "History", and "membership". Clearly, this article is about the term "sedition caucus" more so with the caucus itself.
Had this article been about the actual representatives and not the term, I would have supported deletion on account that a caucus that is "not an actual organized group" with membership based on a single rubber-stamp vote is not notable, and that the title makes the page an Attack page. But since the page is about the fact that other people refer to the objection supporters as the "sedition caucus", the purpose of the page is to describe the accusations of sedition, not accuse the members of sedition. while this article could use improvement in the NPOV department, an article about an accusation is not an attack page.
Speaking of NPOV, "Sedition Caucus ... is a term for Republican members..." is more neutral than "Sedition Caucus ... consists of Republican members..." They don't identify as the "Sedition Caucus"; it is only a name people use to attack them politically. Wikipedia agreeing that there is a sedition caucus is also partaking in the accusation. While current consensus is that calling conspiracy theories baseless does not violate NPOV if reliable sources call them baseless, which has led Wikipedia to side with the democrats on whether the 2021 election was stolen, per BLPPUBLIC we should say that the congress members are accused of being a sedition caucus, not that they are one.
Yes, "X is a term for Y" should not normally be used. However, this is a case where WP:REFERS contradicts WP:BLPPUBLIC. Thus, this is an uncommon situation in which we must choose which rule to ignore. Ignoring BLP-Public results in the lead accusing people of sedition, while ignoring REFERS results in the lead accuratly prefacing the article as one about the term, not about the caucus. My stance is that ignoring REFERS would make Wikipedia better. Caleb M1 ( talk) 21:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi @ AllegedlyHuman:,
The section that was recently removed, appeared to have been removed due to concerns regarding the poor quality reference used, namely the NY Post. Here is a proposed replacement for the section replacing the NY Post ref with one from Politico. Comments, agreements, disagreements?
On April 26th, 2021 representative Liz Cheney stated that, "I do think that some of our candidates who led the charge, particularly the senators who led the unconstitutional charge, not to certify the election, you know, in my view, that's disqualifying." [1] Section three of the 14th amendment of the US Constitution states that, people who have taken an oath to support the U.S. Constitution (shall be barred) from holding federal office if they “engaged in insurrection or rebellion” against the Constitution. [2]
Silly-boy-three ( talk) 07:01, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
References
This page should not be speedy deleted as an attack or a negative unsourced biography of a living person, because it is the WP:COMMONNAME of a widely used political term. The article documents nothing other than the term itself, compare with axis of evil. There are many high-quality reliable sources in the article which speak to the term's notability. -- AllegedlyHuman ( talk) 02:09, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Per WP:BLPCRIME, it seems like a bad move for us to be in the business of associating public figures (or private figures) with the federal crimes of sedition or seditious conspiracy without benefit of arrest, charges, trial, or conviction. Remove the list of names. Elizium23 ( talk) 03:56, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
"Let's recall that my AfD was because in my judgment the content of this article is sufficiently covered in other articles."
"The way the article reads generally asserts sedition as if it were true rather than merely alleged. This is why I think the article should have been deleted, but oh well."AllegedlyHuman ( talk) 03:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
if this is mainly about BLPCRIME, I don't see it-- this is not mainly about BLPCRIME, it's about removing the list of names. The topic here is an operable change, or lack thereof, that would lead to a desired state of the article. So would the article be better with the list or without the list, according to you (genuinely asking)? — Alalch Emis ( talk)
this is not mainly about BLPCRIME- the proposal at the top of this section is above is mainly about BLPCRIME, but fair enough. My position is that as long as this is going to be a stand-alone article, it should probably have the list. If we remove the list, we might as well merge it back into the parent topic and redirect it. As whether it's merged/redirected is probably outside the scope of this particular proposal, I'm in favor of keeping the list. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 17:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
I propose to merge Sedition Caucus into 2021 United States Electoral College vote count. I think that the content in the Sedition Caucus article can easily be explained in the context of 2021 United States Electoral College vote count, and the latter article is of a reasonable size that the merging of the former article will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned.
To keep the discussion in one place, do not comment in this section. Instead comment in the discussion at Talk:2021 United States Electoral College vote count#Merger proposal. 18:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️