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Poison2007, regarding this and this, what proof do you have that McGowan no longer goes by feminine pronouns? Like I mentioned in this discussion about gender-neutral pronouns at Talk:Ezra Miller, the Associated Press states, "They/them/their is acceptable in limited cases as a singular and-or gender-neutral pronoun, when alternative wording is overly awkward or clumsy. However, rewording usually is possible and always is preferable." It also states, "In stories about people who identify as neither male nor female or ask not to be referred to as he/she/him/her: Use the person's name in place of a pronoun, or otherwise reword the sentence, whenever possible. If they/them/their use is essential, explain in the text that the person prefers a gender-neutral pronoun. Be sure that the phrasing does not imply more than one person."
I stated at Talk:Ezra Miller that at articles for non-binary people, we should also keep in mind that a non-binary person may not use gender-neutral pronouns. Ruby Rose for, example, identifies as genderfluid, but still uses feminine pronouns. We had people jumping to use singular they for her without knowing her pronoun preference (and some seemingly did so even while knowing it). If the non-binary person hasn't expressed a pronoun preference, it might be best to go by the pronouns that the preponderance of reliable sources are using for that person. Although Miley Cyrus has identified as genderfluid, her Wikipedia article still uses feminine pronouns. This seems to be due to the fact that Cyrus didn't specify a pronoun preference and the preponderance of reliable sources still refer to her as a she.
Pinging Dawnleelynn and Cornellier, who have reverted you thus far. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 01:22, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
If McGowan uses they/them pronouns and does not also use she/her pronouns, then the article would use them, per the MOS, that much is straightforward and unproblematic: compare the articles on
Emma Sulkowicz,
Jill Soloway,
River Butcher, etc. But as Flyer says, not all non-binary people use they, e.g.
Rebecca Sugar accepts they but also accepts she so Sugar's article retains she. Hence, we would need to find RS clarifying what pronouns McGowan uses before changing them. I don't have much time to search at the moment, and my cursory attempts to were overcome by the large number of (irrelevant/chaff) news articles which mention McGowan using the pronoun they to refer to Rain Dove.
(Btw, re "English-language convention":
singular they is older than singular you—by the time singular you displaced thou, singular they had been a part of English for centuries—so there's no problem with using it as far as "English-language convention" is concerned, heh.)
-sche (
talk) 07:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
One the first paragraph: "Compatible" would have been a better word than "consistent". MOS:IDENTITY has: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources." Since everyone who is the subject of news-event coverage and/or popular-culture coverage (entertainment journalislm, etc.) – that is, virtually everyone to whom this "transgender people and their pronouns" question ever pertains – RS are automatically going to be either using they or using the subject's expressed preference or he or she, or in many constructions re-writing to avoid. They are not going to be defying the subject and everyone else by referring to a transwoman as he, nor adopting made-up "pronouns" like zim or s/he from the subject's own website or whatever. This will be true because AP is explicit on these matters, and the rest of the news style guides are, too, and they agree with AP on this, producing a very dominant result in contemporary RS coverage. Even some non-news style guides are being updated to agree (they tend to have much slower publication cycles). Since we have a rule to follow the sources on this (which we often do not on style matters, or our video game articles would read like gamer zines and our legal articles would be impenetrabble to anyone without a law degree), there is no conflict on this matter between AP Stylebook and Wikipedia's house MoS.
It would be ideal if we addressed the matter more explicitly, but it's politicized. Every RfC and similar discussion on the matter turns into a shitshow, mostly because of far-left and far-right attempts to
attach other concerns as "riders", dragging the discussion into off-topic debates, e.g. about rewriting history with things like "Caitlyn Jenner won the men's decathlon gold medal in the 1976 Summer Olympics" (or writing confusing nonsense like "She fathered her first child in 1978"), versus going to the opposite extreme and demanding to suppress every mention of the newer name – even "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)" or "Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce Jenner)" – in any context that pre-dates the coming-out/transition. We'll get MoS more clear on the matter (and surely in explicit instead of implicit agreement with AP, et al.) at some point. But
WP:Writing policy is hard, and
WP:There is no deadline. It's better to get it right, with strong community support, than have a questionable consensus push in something that causes more dispute than it solves (like early versions of MOS:IDENTITY did in the first place). In the interim,
WP:GNL is actually good advice, even if it's "just an essay". I don't see any evidence of contention about it, and many essays enjoy guideline-like acceptance (BRD, AADD, CIR, COMMONSENSE, etc.).
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 03:52, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Regarding this, we should probably leave a WP:Hidden note. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 03:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Jontel ( talk) 05:48, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Should this be added in the controversy section and how — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClaybourneAmans ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
In addition, McGowan issued this tweet regarding the previous tweet. It seems relevant to the "controversy" because it acknowledges the extreme backlash and justification of the above tweet. I can't edit the page but here is a BBC article where both tweets are cited: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50987759 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.199.16.150 ( talk) 04:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
The material setting out the subject's congratulations of Bryant as a "hero" for apologising for having raped (he conceded she did not consent to sexual intercourse) a woman has been deleted by an editor on the basis that there is no controversy. The subject of this article has the status of a social pundit who is widely reported when expressing her views and opinions. Clearly, the subject deliberately seeks this kind of coverage. Having acquired this standing, the subject's opinions should properly be incorporated into the article. This particular opinion (the heroism of a rapist) is highly controversial on any view. It has been reported widely. That it is a controversial view is plainly the reason it has been so reported. Whether or not the word "controversy" has been printed in association with it is irrelevant. It is controversial, it is part of the subject's public posture (pundit on such matters) and should be published here for those reasons. sirlanz 03:10, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
She's more notable as an actress. It doesn't say in the lead of Leonardo DiCaprio that he's an activist, although he is such. -- Thedarkknightli ( talk) 09:29, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rose McGowan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 150 days |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Poison2007, regarding this and this, what proof do you have that McGowan no longer goes by feminine pronouns? Like I mentioned in this discussion about gender-neutral pronouns at Talk:Ezra Miller, the Associated Press states, "They/them/their is acceptable in limited cases as a singular and-or gender-neutral pronoun, when alternative wording is overly awkward or clumsy. However, rewording usually is possible and always is preferable." It also states, "In stories about people who identify as neither male nor female or ask not to be referred to as he/she/him/her: Use the person's name in place of a pronoun, or otherwise reword the sentence, whenever possible. If they/them/their use is essential, explain in the text that the person prefers a gender-neutral pronoun. Be sure that the phrasing does not imply more than one person."
I stated at Talk:Ezra Miller that at articles for non-binary people, we should also keep in mind that a non-binary person may not use gender-neutral pronouns. Ruby Rose for, example, identifies as genderfluid, but still uses feminine pronouns. We had people jumping to use singular they for her without knowing her pronoun preference (and some seemingly did so even while knowing it). If the non-binary person hasn't expressed a pronoun preference, it might be best to go by the pronouns that the preponderance of reliable sources are using for that person. Although Miley Cyrus has identified as genderfluid, her Wikipedia article still uses feminine pronouns. This seems to be due to the fact that Cyrus didn't specify a pronoun preference and the preponderance of reliable sources still refer to her as a she.
Pinging Dawnleelynn and Cornellier, who have reverted you thus far. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 01:22, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
If McGowan uses they/them pronouns and does not also use she/her pronouns, then the article would use them, per the MOS, that much is straightforward and unproblematic: compare the articles on
Emma Sulkowicz,
Jill Soloway,
River Butcher, etc. But as Flyer says, not all non-binary people use they, e.g.
Rebecca Sugar accepts they but also accepts she so Sugar's article retains she. Hence, we would need to find RS clarifying what pronouns McGowan uses before changing them. I don't have much time to search at the moment, and my cursory attempts to were overcome by the large number of (irrelevant/chaff) news articles which mention McGowan using the pronoun they to refer to Rain Dove.
(Btw, re "English-language convention":
singular they is older than singular you—by the time singular you displaced thou, singular they had been a part of English for centuries—so there's no problem with using it as far as "English-language convention" is concerned, heh.)
-sche (
talk) 07:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
One the first paragraph: "Compatible" would have been a better word than "consistent". MOS:IDENTITY has: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources." Since everyone who is the subject of news-event coverage and/or popular-culture coverage (entertainment journalislm, etc.) – that is, virtually everyone to whom this "transgender people and their pronouns" question ever pertains – RS are automatically going to be either using they or using the subject's expressed preference or he or she, or in many constructions re-writing to avoid. They are not going to be defying the subject and everyone else by referring to a transwoman as he, nor adopting made-up "pronouns" like zim or s/he from the subject's own website or whatever. This will be true because AP is explicit on these matters, and the rest of the news style guides are, too, and they agree with AP on this, producing a very dominant result in contemporary RS coverage. Even some non-news style guides are being updated to agree (they tend to have much slower publication cycles). Since we have a rule to follow the sources on this (which we often do not on style matters, or our video game articles would read like gamer zines and our legal articles would be impenetrabble to anyone without a law degree), there is no conflict on this matter between AP Stylebook and Wikipedia's house MoS.
It would be ideal if we addressed the matter more explicitly, but it's politicized. Every RfC and similar discussion on the matter turns into a shitshow, mostly because of far-left and far-right attempts to
attach other concerns as "riders", dragging the discussion into off-topic debates, e.g. about rewriting history with things like "Caitlyn Jenner won the men's decathlon gold medal in the 1976 Summer Olympics" (or writing confusing nonsense like "She fathered her first child in 1978"), versus going to the opposite extreme and demanding to suppress every mention of the newer name – even "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn Jenner)" or "Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce Jenner)" – in any context that pre-dates the coming-out/transition. We'll get MoS more clear on the matter (and surely in explicit instead of implicit agreement with AP, et al.) at some point. But
WP:Writing policy is hard, and
WP:There is no deadline. It's better to get it right, with strong community support, than have a questionable consensus push in something that causes more dispute than it solves (like early versions of MOS:IDENTITY did in the first place). In the interim,
WP:GNL is actually good advice, even if it's "just an essay". I don't see any evidence of contention about it, and many essays enjoy guideline-like acceptance (BRD, AADD, CIR, COMMONSENSE, etc.).
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 03:52, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Regarding this, we should probably leave a WP:Hidden note. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 03:34, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Jontel ( talk) 05:48, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
Should this be added in the controversy section and how — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClaybourneAmans ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
In addition, McGowan issued this tweet regarding the previous tweet. It seems relevant to the "controversy" because it acknowledges the extreme backlash and justification of the above tweet. I can't edit the page but here is a BBC article where both tweets are cited: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50987759 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.199.16.150 ( talk) 04:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
The material setting out the subject's congratulations of Bryant as a "hero" for apologising for having raped (he conceded she did not consent to sexual intercourse) a woman has been deleted by an editor on the basis that there is no controversy. The subject of this article has the status of a social pundit who is widely reported when expressing her views and opinions. Clearly, the subject deliberately seeks this kind of coverage. Having acquired this standing, the subject's opinions should properly be incorporated into the article. This particular opinion (the heroism of a rapist) is highly controversial on any view. It has been reported widely. That it is a controversial view is plainly the reason it has been so reported. Whether or not the word "controversy" has been printed in association with it is irrelevant. It is controversial, it is part of the subject's public posture (pundit on such matters) and should be published here for those reasons. sirlanz 03:10, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:44, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
She's more notable as an actress. It doesn't say in the lead of Leonardo DiCaprio that he's an activist, although he is such. -- Thedarkknightli ( talk) 09:29, 5 October 2022 (UTC)