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(reposted from below) I'm new to Wiki, so I wanted to discuss it with people on here first. This page does not include the final election results, which have been available for months. Altschuler lost by 593 votes (per Suffolk County Board of Elections, see link : http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/boe/eleres/10ge/ I feel this page should include the final tally. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.173.17 ( talk) 17:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The person in question is running for U.S. Congress from
New York's 1st congressional district. He has received sustained coverage in daily periodicals, such as
Newsday, the
New York Daily News,
Politico, and other politically-focused news sources. The sources used on the page itself are all from reputable publications or the individual's official biography.
Certainly the article can use editing, but the subject is sufficiently notable to merit a Wikipedia page.
NB: since mid-July, there have been three different efforts so far to double the size of the article by adding details about recent political views and efforts, by people apparently both supporting and opposed to Altschuler; all reverted. Some seem to have had decent sources, if anyone wants to take a stap at an NPOV overview. – SJ + 13:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I added three days protection after a request on RfPP. The dispute seems to be about this:
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing (BPO) company[4] with more than 4,000 employees across Asia. Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into second largest BPO firm in India.[5] In April 2006, OfficeTiger was sold to RR Donnelley for $250 Million.[6]
Could the accounts who were removing it please explain what the problem is? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:58, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is one source that states OfficeTiger has employees in North America, Europe, India, Philippines and Sri Lanka. The company was incorporated in 2005 and is based in New York, New York. Here., I concede the 4,000 number it correct, but placing the jobs all in India is not.
Another crucial point is that for BLP articles, there is a specific citation that the use of weasel words or loaded words are to be avoided. The word "Outsourcing" connotes the active firing of Americans workers and the jobs shipped overseas, practices that OfficeTiger did not engage in. Here" "As the articles states, "Technically, OfficeTiger did not outsource jobs because it did not eliminate U.S. jobs and move them overseas. But it did employ thousands of workers in Chennai, India, to supply business services to U.S. companies" Rather, OfficeTiger hired employees overseas to make American workers more productive, and its why it is appropriate for the Wiki article to say business services to companies.
I want to point out that the editor Arbor repeatedly refused entreaties to discuss her edits on the article's talk page, in violation of commonly accepted practice on Wikipedia for editing articles. I would have gladly engaged her in debate, but she apparently preferred to post misleading edits instead. The editor, who judging by the entirety of her edits on Wikipedia, is a partisan Democrat who is seeking any advantage over Republicans, even if it means misleading readers in candidate articles. Such misleading edits should not be rewarded. I look forward to robust debate on this topic before any protected changes are made.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
In addition, if the editor Arbor were truly interested in making edits for the general welfare of Wikipedia readers and providing citations, then she should explain why several edits that were reverted were not sourced and bordered on WP:VANDALISM.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 00:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
The editor in question's full ID is Arbor832466. I Used Arbor in the article for shorthand, but I do not wish to slight her by referring to her inappropriately. My sincere apologies for any confusion or offense, as none was intended. -- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 00:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Arbor832466 that Altschuler is connected with OfficeTiger and that the company had 4,000 employees. I disputed the way she characterized the company, both in writing that the company had 4,000 employees in India and Sri Lanka, and that the company outsourced American jobs. OfficeTiger did not outsource American jobs in the classic definition because it did not engage in the firing of American workers and exporting of those jobs overseas. OfficeTiger was an international company that assisted companies all around the world with back office support services. It did not result in Americans losing jobs. See Here. As the article states, "None of those jobs got there through traditional "offshoring." They were never in the USA to begin with."
Arbor832466 agrees that outsourcing is a hot-button word, but her use of the word is not to portray an even-handed example of what OfficeTiger did, it is to arouse passions of viewers who will see the word outsourcing and automatically assume that OfficeTiger is the reason they have to call customer support in some other country. Additionally, to engage in a proper and comprehensive discussion of OfficeTiger's activities on Altschuler's page would be improper--the proper forum for that would be OfficeTiger's page. That's why the article should refrain from mentioning the word--because its simple use will give off the wrong impression, and that Altschuler's page is not the appropriate forum to clarify matters. See also the CQ article I linked to above for another source that OfficeTiger did not "outsource" jobs in the classic sense of the term in the sense that many would conclude simply by reading the word.
In sum, the edits made my Arbor832466 were misleading and designed not to present the facts of the case in a neutral manner, but rather to confuse and anger readers by the purposeful and imprecise use of a known hot-button word. It is my firm belief that such loaded words, when they would clearly be interpreted in ways other than how they should, are to be avoided.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I want to also point out that Arbor832466 never engaged on the article's talk page to discuss proposed edits and sourcing in the attempts to reach a compromise. Since her actions go against the spirit and aim of Wikipedia, I find it problematic that her edits might remain unchanged simply because she contacted an administrator rather than engage in the normal course of consensus-building. Had she engaged on this pages talk page (as other editors had asked her to), the page would never have needed to be locked. But I find it wrong that now it appears that there is no opportunity to forge a compromise, and that it is an either-or proposition.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Alschuler called it outsourcing himself in an interview with CNN in 2004, so there is no BLP issue here. See interview here (my bold below):
LISOVICZ: The loss of US jobs to overseas markets is fast becoming one of the hot bun issues of this election year. Despite the anxiety outsourcing is causing, there are some firms that have found a way to make money off the trend. One company particular is called Office Tiger. The firm was set up five years ago by two Americans, and joining us today is one of them Randy Altschuler, one of the co- founders ...
LISOVICZ: One of the astonishing things that we have seen in the outsourcing is that we have seen increasingly sophisticated jobs exported overseas; historically it's just been confined to manufacturing, now we see really huge meteoric growth in IT. Your staff in India has advanced degrees. Is that correct?
ALTSCHULER: That's right. In fact our entire staff has graduate degrees, one-third of them having post-graduate degrees. Seven percent of them have PhDs. So it's a very highly educated staff.
LISOVICZ: Where have they been educated? I'm just curious.
ALTSCHULER: At universities in India, as well as some people have spent time in the United States and the United Kingdom, and then come back to India.
SERWER: Randy, obviously this outsourcing thing has become a tremendous hot-button topic. A lot of people are pointing fingers. I'm a real free market guy. I don't have a problem with what you guys are doing. But how do you respond to people who say you are un- American? What do you have to say about that?
ALTSCHULER: There are two trends in outsourcing right now. One is all about cost cutting, and taking a job here, firing somebody here and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does. We are involved with the second trend, which is how can we enhance the services and the jobs that Americans are doing here domestically? And that's what we're really focused on. It's a very different kind of outsourcing.
CAFFERTY: Are you an American company or an Indian company?
ALTSCHULER: We are an American company.
CAFFERTY: Why can't you do this in America?
ALTSCHULER: The question is, if American companies are going to become more competitive, they need to focus on providing higher value added services to their clients. So you want the professional here doing different kinds of things than he or she is doing today. Office Tiger allows them to take some of the more traditional tasks and outsource that offshore.
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 00:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
::ALTSCHULER: Again, just to go back to what I was saying before. There are two different kinds of outsourcing. One is taking a center job here, or a data entry job here, and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does. Office Tiger is actually trying to make the professionals here more productive and grow their job responsibilities. So in fact, it's actually enhancing what professionals do here. It's very different than just shifting jobs off shore. (Emphasis mine).
I welcome an opportunity to reach a consensus with Arbor before the page goes live. I do not want this page to turn into a platform for anyone's view on outsourcing, because such a discussion is designed to confuse and mislead readers. I will make a good faith attempt to work out the issue with Arbor, and I hope we can come to an understanding. I just want to avoid a situation where her edits are the default--I want it to be a clean slate. I also want it to be short, concise on both sides so that the page is not consumed by this topic.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
However, I do believe that in situation such as this where reliable sources say different things, that we should err on the side of caution. For example, in a recent endorsement of Altschuler by the New York Post, OfficeTiger was described as "offering business-support and employment services." Here. In situations such as here, where reliable sources say diverging things, a BLP article should be written as narrowly and conservatively as possible in order not to portray facts in a negative light or mislead readers.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:24, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In response to your question of my connection to the subject of the article, I am a supporter of his and a Republican, and I would like to seem him elected to Congress. In the interest of fairness, this question should be posed to Arbor, as she has made many, many edits on various pages that seem to favor Democrat candidates for either election or re-election (depending on the race). I suspect that this is a simple case of Republican vs. Democrat, Wikipedia style.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Arbor- I would have assumed good faith if you had engaged in a discussion on this talk page from the get-go, and if you had refrained from making unsourced edits, as you did on several occasions. Also, I do not believe I engaged in name-calling, and I am offended at the insinuation, especially since you should also assume good faith from me--it cuts both ways.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Also, statements such as "OfficeTiger is an outsourcing company. It just IS" illustrates the central debate. We can both point to sources that call OfficeTiger different things and describe it differently--why then must the most inflammatory term be used? That hardly seems appropriate in a BLP article.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I just wish to highlight Wikipedia guidelines on editing content: "Policies and guidelines are supposed to state what most Wikipedians agree upon, and should be phrased to reflect the present consensus on a subject. In general, more caution should be exercised in editing policies and guidelines than in editing articles. Minor edits to existing pages, such as formatting changes, grammatical improvement and uncontentious clarification, may be made by any editor at any time. However, changes that would alter the substance of policy or guidelines should normally be announced on the appropriate talk page first. The change may be implemented if no objection is made to it or if discussion shows that there is consensus for the change. Major changes should also be publicized to the community in general, as should proposals for new policy pages." (Emphasis mine) See Here.
Again, I am open to compromise, but I do believe that his use of the term is immaterial when use on a wikipedia page will lead readers to conclude something that Altschuler's words do not state. Also, we have sources that call it outsourcing and sources that do not. In situations like that, we should be conservative with using an inflammatory, loaded word.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As an aside, since I disclosed my connection to the subject, I think its only fair for Arbor to disclose her relationship (if any).-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I look forward to discussing this matter with Arbor and reaching a consensus in the next few days. I also do request that Arbor reveal what, if any, affiliation she has with this campaign or, judging from her editorial history, any bias or viewpoint she has. Since I revealed mine, fairness requires she do the same. After that point, I will gladly engage in discussion on either this talk page, her talk page, or my talk page (I have no particular preference and am amenable to any forum).-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 03:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As an aside, its not just the New York Post that describes OfficeTiger without mentioning outsourcing. A New York Times article from October 23, 2009 says "Mr. Altschuler, who lives in St. James, was a fund-raiser for Senator John McCain’s presidential campaign last year. He has founded and run Office Tiger, a business-support services company he later sold, and CloudBlue, which recycles electronic equipment." Here. And the one thing I think we can all agree on is that the New York Times is not generally known for "whitewashing" in ways that would benefit Republicans :). Arbor has linked to sites that use the word outsoursing, and I have linked to sites that do not. I assert that use of the word in this context is unnecessary and misleading, and I have reliable sources that had an opportunity to use the word and did not. Let's try to figure out a common ground.
Additionally, SlimVirgin, no one is talking about articles ignoring points of view; rather, the debate is over the best means for expressing those differing points of view. The word outsourcing is unnecessary in my view to convey that OfficeTiger had 4,000 employees worldwide and that it performed business-support services for client companies.
As another matter, I do not agree that it follows that since Altschuler referred to outsourcing, that outsourcing is the word that we must use in this article. That's like saying that since President Obama refers to the health care reform bill as "health insurance reform," here and here. that in Mr. Obama's article, the hearing about HCR should reflect his terminology. However, that is not the case, because his Wikipedia article refers to "health care reform." It has no bearing what he called the reform efforts (and subsequently, what liberal blogs called the reform effort here.)--what matters is that the article uses "health care reform" because it is the most natural and useful term. The article does not use health insurance reform, and it does not refer to it as Obamacare (or other right-wing terms), even though both are rhetorical devises that tend to be linked to a particular point of view. The article stays noncontroversial and informative. So it is there, so to it should be here. Outsourcing is a loaded term that, like using either Obamacare or health insurance reform, will generate a reaction by its simple appearance in an article. Wikipedia strives to present most points of view, but it need not do so in the most inflammatory ways possible. All I ask is that we apply this principle here. -- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 03:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Arbor, you asked where to go from here. Can you write up on this page what you'd like to add to the article? I suggest using the CNN source and others to describe the company, then add something about Altschuler saying it's a different kind of outsourcing, just something very brief. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 04:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In case it's helpful, here are some sources discussing Altschuler and outsourcing:
Just five years ago, they were junior investment bankers at the Blackstone Group and Goldman Sachs, one in New York City, the other in London. During one particularly long night of proofreading PowerPoint slides and commiserating by phone about finding yet another error courtesy of their companies' in-house document service, they had an epiphany. They would find a better way of doing that work.
This was at the height of the dotcom boom, and everyone they knew was trying to figure out a way to Silicon Valley. These two had a different idea. They would go to India, set up a team of accountants and desktop-publishing experts and persuade investment banks in New York to outsource their confidential financial documents and client presentations halfway around the world.
The entrepreneurs' families, not to mention Silicon Valley's venture capitalists, "were looking at us in a crazy way," Sigelman says, especially when he relocated to Madras. Five years later, as it moves into more complex work, OfficeTiger, with $18 million from British investors, plans to increase the number of its employees in India this year from 1,500 to 2,500 and more than triple its U.S. work force, from 30 to 100."
OfficeTiger, however, will continue its operations as an independent unit and its co-founders, Joseph 'Joe' Sigelman and Randolph 'Randy' Altschuler, will continue as its co-presidents.
While Sigelman operates from India, Altschuler sits in New York.
The story of the two young men chucking their high-paying jobs (Randy was in private equity at The Blackstone Group and Joe with Goldman Sachs International in London [ Images ] in the Investment Banking Division) to enter the outsourcing arena, from India, has become a legend now. ... Both knew the concept called business process outsourcing (BPO) would work. 'We hadn't an iota of doubt about it. Probably, stupid confidence, but we were confident.'"
'I have built several successful businesses from the ground up and I am proud that I have created hundreds of jobs across the United States,' he said in a written statement to CQ Politics."
I would point to other points in the CQ article listed above: "Technically, OfficeTiger did not outsource jobs because it did not eliminate U.S. jobs and move them overseas. But it did employ thousands of workers in Chennai, India, to supply business services to U.S. companies."
Also, the USA Today article from 2005 and the New York Times articles from 2009, both which I previously cited above, merit equal consideration.
I also maintain that the initial description of OfficeTiger should be as neutral as possible, with more elaboration following it. It can even be in its own paragraph in the same section if the concern is burying the info in a paragraph.
Its amazing how much more civil a debate can be after a good night sleep :) -- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 20:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I have no doubt that you all will let me know what you think ;) Arbor832466 ( talk) 20:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
General Note on Sources: The book you cite to was published in November 2004, but there is no date given as to when the interview was with Altschuler. In addition, the CNN interview was also in February 2004. I Think we need to look at sources written later on, but that center on when OT was an independent company (2005-early 2006). Sources from that era will have more accurate numbers and locations of employment. As for the rediff source, it is unclear if that article is referring to OT as an independent company or as part of RR Donnelly. What is wrong with the articles I listed from USA Today, CQ, and the New York Times?-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 20:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
(2 x ec) Can we go through it line by line?
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing company (BPO) that performes back office support services for American companies in India and Sri Lanka. [1] [2] Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 10,000 employees around the world, including 4,000 in India. [3]
Altschuler has said he rejects the characterization of OfficeTiger as a "traditional outsourcing company," with the implication that the company directly moves jobs from the United States to Asia. He contends that OfficeTiger's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." [4] Altschuler's political opponents, however, continue to decry Altschuler as an "outsourcing pioneer." [5]
In April 2006, OfficeTiger was sold to global offshoring provider RR Donnelley [6] for $250 Million. [7]
So, sentence by sentence:
The book you cite to was published in November 2004, but there is no date given as to when the interview was with Altschuler. In addition, the CNN interview was also in February 2004. I Think we need to look at sources written later on, but that center on when OT was an independent company (2005-early 2006). Sources from that era will have more accurate numbers and locations of employment. As for the rediff source, it is unclear if that article is referring to OT as an independent company or as part of RR Donnelly. What is wrong with the articles I listed from USA Today, CQ, and the New York Times?-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 21:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
My own revised draft: I would change it to "In 1999, Altschuler and and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business support services company headquartered in New York, and grew into an international company with over 4,000 employees in various countries around the world, including England, India, Sri Lanka, and the Philippines. (Sources--NYT article I linked to above and business week description at the very top of the discussion page." Altschuler and Seligmann sold OfficeTiger in 2006 to RR Donnelly & Co for $250 million. Source to sale.
The first sentence looks fine to me. The second sentence: "Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 10,000 employees around the world, including 4,000 in India."
This seems to be a point of contention. Which is the best-quality source for the number of employees and their location? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Is this source acceptable?: http://www.cloudblue.com/content/randy-altschuler-chairman This site was used by Arbor previously in one of her edits: http://www.ebusinessforum.com/index.asp?layout=rich_story&doc_id=8344&categoryid=&channelid=&search=colombo . It mentions OfficeTiger having 4000 employees around the world.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 22:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
So the second sentence would be: "Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 3,000 employees, 2000 of them in Chennai, India, as of 2005." Sourced to the UPenn business school site.
Third and fourth sentences go together: "Altschuler has said he rejects the characterization of OfficeTiger as a "traditional outsourcing company," with the implication that the company directly moves jobs from the United States to Asia. He contends that OfficeTiger's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." Sourced to a CNN interview with him. [11]
Mr Wilson, any objections? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 23:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
How about this? "Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not move American jobs overseas. He has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." Sourced to CNN interview SlimVirgin talk| contribs 23:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As a general question, once we reach a consensus, I assume that just the Business Career portion of this page will remain protected through the election to prevent vandalism? I am perfectly fine with that. I just think the rest of the page should be opened for edits.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
(ec) If Arbor is fine with them, the third and fourth sentences are: "Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not move American jobs overseas. He has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." Sourced to CNN interview
So we seem to have:
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing company (BPO) that performes back office support services for American companies in India and Sri Lanka. [1] [2] Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 3,000 employees, 2000 of them in Chennai, India, as of 2005. [3] Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not move American jobs overseas; he has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." [1] In April 2006, OfficeTiger was sold to global offshoring provider RR Donnelley for $250 million. [4]
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 01:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing company (BPO) that performes back office support services for American companies. [1] [2] As of 2005, OfficeTiger had 3000 employees around the world, with 2000 in Channai, India, and the rest distributed among OfficeTiger's headquarters in New York and smaller offices in Sri Lanka, Great Britain and Germany. [3] "Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not directly move American jobs overseas. He has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." [4]
Arbor, you should just go ahead and come up with a reasonable compromise now, one that's compliant with the sources and fair to Altschuler. The article will be unprotected in a few hours, then you can add it as you see fit. Cheers, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 04:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The sentence " However, later in the same interview, Altschuler admitted some companies use OfficeTiger to 'cut costs and save money by shipping jobs off shore.'" in the Office Tiger section is a complete misquote of what Mr. Altschuler said in the cited source, which was "There are two trends in outsourcing right now. One is all about cost cutting, and taking a job here, firing somebody here and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does. We are involved with the second trend, which is how can we enhance the services and the jobs that Americans are doing here domestically?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 18:06, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
Arbor, I'm restoring my edit since the text I changed was in total contradiction with the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 23:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
CAFFERTY: Why can't you do this in America? ALTSCHULER: The question is, if American companies are going to become more competitive, they need to focus on providing higher value added services to their clients. So you want the professional here doing different kinds of things than he or she is doing today. Office Tiger allows them to take some of the more traditional tasks and outsource that offshore.
I don't know who Mr Wilson is. He says he is not connected to Altschuler, and of course I accept that. I would only add that this is a public page, and that the IP addresses of whoever has been making these edits has been logged, because some of them were made logged out. These kinds of discussions sometimes attract attention off Wikipedia, and not always in a way that enhances the reputation of the subject, which is most unfair if the subject has not been involved. This discussion is potentially drawing more attention to the outsourcing issue than the original material in the article did. Something to bear in mind. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:27, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As the dispute seems to be resolved, I've unprotected and made the section in question visible again. Arbor, please feel free to tweak it as discussed. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 19:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd added semi-protection because of past problems that may be starting up again. Logan, and anyone else who edits the article, please make sure anything you add is really well-sourced, and doesn't deviate from the sources. See WP:SOURCES for a description of what counts as a reliable source. Also see WP:BLP. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 18:47, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
You should vet the edits being made to this article closely. Some of the sources used are not legitimate under WP:SOURCES.-- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 18:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Misspelling of WP:SOURCES corrected.-- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 19:00, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Charges of carpetbagging were prominent in both the primary and general election when Altschuler who had moved to the district two years before the run took on lifelong Southampton resident Tim Bishop.
During the primary Altschulter accused Cox of not even paying Suffolk taxes (Cox who lived in the same New York City apartment building as his father registered to vote at his uncle's home in Westhampton Beach in 2010). Cox, whose father Edward F. Cox was born in Westhampton Beach, noted that his family had 160 years of family history in the district while charging that Altschulter had just been shopping for a district where he could get elected. Altschuler had lived in New Jersey prior to the move. Virginia Newmann Littell, chairwoman of the New Jersey Republican Party, said that Altchulter had once inquired about challenging Scott Garrett in the New Jersey's 5th congressional district. Littell noted that Altschulter has a liberal rather than conservative background including endorsement from the Republican Leadership Council and had spent some time in the Green Party. [1] [2] [3]
Urbanelephants is a group blog and shouldn't be used, esp not for anything contentious. To the anon, is there any false in the edit, anything unsourced, or are the other sources objectionable? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 19:14, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
The Daily News and Capital Tonight sources appear to be legitimate. The portions about New Jersey residency is false and not supported by any sources. The letter from the former Chairwoman regards a private meeting and the contents of that have never been independently verified. Additionally, the information about Cox, Bishop, and ALtschuler's residency should be shortened to simply say Altschuler moved to St. James in 2008. Cox's residency and Bishop's residency is irrelevant in this article.-- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 19:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't want to have to go through this material and decide which part is supported by which source. But I also don't want to be in a position as admin of protecting inappropriate material. So I'm moving the section here. Americasroof (or anyone else), if you want to keep this, please write it so that it contains only material that is clearly relevant, and clearly sourced to reliable sources, per WP:SOURCES. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 20:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Charges of carpetbagging were prominent in both the primary and general election when Altschuler who had moved to the district two years before the run took on lifelong Southampton resident Tim Bishop.
During the primary Altschulter accused Cox of not even paying Suffolk taxes [1] Cox who lived in the same New York City apartment building as his father registered to vote at his uncle's home in Westhampton Beach in 2010. [2] Cox, whose father Edward F. Cox was born in Westhampton Beach, noted that his family had 160 years of family history in the district [3] while charging that Altschulter had just been shopping for a district where he could get elected. Cox charged that Altschuler had lived in New Jersey prior to the move and published a letter from Virginia Newmann Littell, chairwoman of the New Jersey Republican Party, saying that Altchulter had once inquired about challenging Scott Garrett in the New Jersey's 5th congressional district. Littell noted that Altschulter has a liberal rather than conservative background including endorsement from the Republican Leadership Council and had spent some time in the Green Party. [4] [5] [6]
I agree that the Suffolk County Liberty Report does not appear to come close to what WP:SOURCES requires for a legitimate source. I also do not think that, for the most part, the NY Daily News and Capitol Tonight sources say what AR asserts they do. AR seems to be quoting press releases that were published in full, not independent reporting by the reporters. If quoting press releases published in full is acceptable, it seems a backdoor way to attack WP:BLP subjects. Also, some information, even if from a valid source, seems out of place in this article. Why should this article have information about Ed Cox's birthplace? IMHO, such info should go in his own wikipedia entry--and maybe in the entry for Christopher Nixon Cox (which was recently heavily edited by AR). -- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 21:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm new to Wiki, so I wanted to discuss it with people on here first. This page does not include the final election results, which have been available for months. Altschuler lost by 593 votes (per Suffolk County Board of Elections, see link : http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/boe/eleres/10ge/ I feel this page should include the final tally. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdavi410 ( talk • contribs) 04:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm new to wiki so I thought maybe I could get some help (yes I'll play in the sandbox so I can learn to things for myself).
Until then here is some info that would enhance the Randy Altschuler article.
1. Randy and his wife Cheryl recently anonounced the birth of their new born daughter, Cheryl. http://www.facebook.com/joinrandy
2. Cheryl was born in Thailand and prior to becoming a pediatrician, was a professional ballet dancer with the Washington Ballet. Her parents are Charles Sladkin a retired CIA employee who once was awarded the (pretigious) W. Averell Harriman Award, and Yumei Sladkin A Taiwnese born businesswoman who owns Oriental Decor, stores in Rockville, Md., and in Tyson's Corner, Va., where they also own Emissary, a linen store.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/07/style/weddings-cheryl-sladkin-randolph-altschuler.html http://www.circularpower.com/PointeMagazine_Article.html http://www.ndi.org/harriman_democracy_award — Preceding unsigned comment added by Long island bob ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Hey guys
I'm new here.
I realize I've messed up a couple of links but, well, I'm working on it.
I'd like to thank Danger for welcoming me on board, and to wish him well with his health issues.
I'm still trying to add two more sentences of background about Altschuler's company Cloudblue, but since I'm hving trouble posting proper links I think I'll go back to teh andbox for awhile.
Oh the sentences are:
1.
In the case of computers, Cloudblue erases and destroys the computer’s hard drive on the customer's site. All electronics (computer or otherwise), are then disassembled at one of the company’s processing sites. Reusable components are sold and remnants are exported to countries where the recycling continues.
SOURCE:
http://cloudblue.com/content/our-process
And
2.
In May 2011, the company announced it had plans to build three new processing facilities (in Texas, California and Puerto Rico, and expand its plants in Chicago IL, Dallas TX, and Joliet, IL)
SOURCES:
http://www.enviroblyss.com/2011/05
and
http://www.cloudblue.com/news/cloudblue-expands-global-reach-meet-electronics-disposition-demand
I am not trying to disrupt the page. It's just that I am not an HTML jockey and I'm new here so sometimes I can't figure out the right way to pot a good link.
~Bob
Long island bob (
talk) 22:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Long island bob (
talk) 22:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
This section is a wild distortion which is not substantiated by the cited article, which merely repeats a press release issued by an opponent. The article does not report on the substance of the claims, just the existence of an allegation. Not NPOV by a long shot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 11:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
As for the source -- there is no problem with WP:RS here (and if you think otherwise, you can go to the relevant noticeboard). Your own feelings about the source, the interpretation you are putting on it, are completely irrelevant, per WP:OR. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 07:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I disagree completely on WP:RS. The source simply does not support the allegation of a "Controversy" but merely states that an opponent has made an allegation. A controversy must have more than one participant. Furthermore, the circular reference is quite galling. If one candidate issued a press release claiming another was a martian, and a newspaper picked it up and printed "A calls B a Martian" would it be WP:RS to claim that candidate B was in fact a cited, verified and confirmed martian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.56.191.42 ( talk) 15:58, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
As far as the "reliability" of brookster22, the user who posted this section, goes see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sdavi410/Archive. Brookster22 is one of the sockpuppets used by SDavi410 whose entire wikipedia history, apart from placing this setion in Mr. Altschuler's page, consists of supporting the source of the allegation, George Demos. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Brookster22. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 16:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
This source notes there were "identical releases from Altschuler and Doug Hoffman" - which would not qualify as a self published source because it makes no mention of the press release. Daily News obviously an RS - so this should be included. But I agree with Jhoge123 that we can have a discussion as to the wording.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/ny-1-hopeful-george-demos-call.html
Jpeter718 (
talk) 19:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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(reposted from below) I'm new to Wiki, so I wanted to discuss it with people on here first. This page does not include the final election results, which have been available for months. Altschuler lost by 593 votes (per Suffolk County Board of Elections, see link : http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/boe/eleres/10ge/ I feel this page should include the final tally. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.173.17 ( talk) 17:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
The person in question is running for U.S. Congress from
New York's 1st congressional district. He has received sustained coverage in daily periodicals, such as
Newsday, the
New York Daily News,
Politico, and other politically-focused news sources. The sources used on the page itself are all from reputable publications or the individual's official biography.
Certainly the article can use editing, but the subject is sufficiently notable to merit a Wikipedia page.
NB: since mid-July, there have been three different efforts so far to double the size of the article by adding details about recent political views and efforts, by people apparently both supporting and opposed to Altschuler; all reverted. Some seem to have had decent sources, if anyone wants to take a stap at an NPOV overview. – SJ + 13:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I added three days protection after a request on RfPP. The dispute seems to be about this:
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing (BPO) company[4] with more than 4,000 employees across Asia. Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into second largest BPO firm in India.[5] In April 2006, OfficeTiger was sold to RR Donnelley for $250 Million.[6]
Could the accounts who were removing it please explain what the problem is? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:58, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Here is one source that states OfficeTiger has employees in North America, Europe, India, Philippines and Sri Lanka. The company was incorporated in 2005 and is based in New York, New York. Here., I concede the 4,000 number it correct, but placing the jobs all in India is not.
Another crucial point is that for BLP articles, there is a specific citation that the use of weasel words or loaded words are to be avoided. The word "Outsourcing" connotes the active firing of Americans workers and the jobs shipped overseas, practices that OfficeTiger did not engage in. Here" "As the articles states, "Technically, OfficeTiger did not outsource jobs because it did not eliminate U.S. jobs and move them overseas. But it did employ thousands of workers in Chennai, India, to supply business services to U.S. companies" Rather, OfficeTiger hired employees overseas to make American workers more productive, and its why it is appropriate for the Wiki article to say business services to companies.
I want to point out that the editor Arbor repeatedly refused entreaties to discuss her edits on the article's talk page, in violation of commonly accepted practice on Wikipedia for editing articles. I would have gladly engaged her in debate, but she apparently preferred to post misleading edits instead. The editor, who judging by the entirety of her edits on Wikipedia, is a partisan Democrat who is seeking any advantage over Republicans, even if it means misleading readers in candidate articles. Such misleading edits should not be rewarded. I look forward to robust debate on this topic before any protected changes are made.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
In addition, if the editor Arbor were truly interested in making edits for the general welfare of Wikipedia readers and providing citations, then she should explain why several edits that were reverted were not sourced and bordered on WP:VANDALISM.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 00:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
The editor in question's full ID is Arbor832466. I Used Arbor in the article for shorthand, but I do not wish to slight her by referring to her inappropriately. My sincere apologies for any confusion or offense, as none was intended. -- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 00:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Arbor832466 that Altschuler is connected with OfficeTiger and that the company had 4,000 employees. I disputed the way she characterized the company, both in writing that the company had 4,000 employees in India and Sri Lanka, and that the company outsourced American jobs. OfficeTiger did not outsource American jobs in the classic definition because it did not engage in the firing of American workers and exporting of those jobs overseas. OfficeTiger was an international company that assisted companies all around the world with back office support services. It did not result in Americans losing jobs. See Here. As the article states, "None of those jobs got there through traditional "offshoring." They were never in the USA to begin with."
Arbor832466 agrees that outsourcing is a hot-button word, but her use of the word is not to portray an even-handed example of what OfficeTiger did, it is to arouse passions of viewers who will see the word outsourcing and automatically assume that OfficeTiger is the reason they have to call customer support in some other country. Additionally, to engage in a proper and comprehensive discussion of OfficeTiger's activities on Altschuler's page would be improper--the proper forum for that would be OfficeTiger's page. That's why the article should refrain from mentioning the word--because its simple use will give off the wrong impression, and that Altschuler's page is not the appropriate forum to clarify matters. See also the CQ article I linked to above for another source that OfficeTiger did not "outsource" jobs in the classic sense of the term in the sense that many would conclude simply by reading the word.
In sum, the edits made my Arbor832466 were misleading and designed not to present the facts of the case in a neutral manner, but rather to confuse and anger readers by the purposeful and imprecise use of a known hot-button word. It is my firm belief that such loaded words, when they would clearly be interpreted in ways other than how they should, are to be avoided.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I want to also point out that Arbor832466 never engaged on the article's talk page to discuss proposed edits and sourcing in the attempts to reach a compromise. Since her actions go against the spirit and aim of Wikipedia, I find it problematic that her edits might remain unchanged simply because she contacted an administrator rather than engage in the normal course of consensus-building. Had she engaged on this pages talk page (as other editors had asked her to), the page would never have needed to be locked. But I find it wrong that now it appears that there is no opportunity to forge a compromise, and that it is an either-or proposition.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Alschuler called it outsourcing himself in an interview with CNN in 2004, so there is no BLP issue here. See interview here (my bold below):
LISOVICZ: The loss of US jobs to overseas markets is fast becoming one of the hot bun issues of this election year. Despite the anxiety outsourcing is causing, there are some firms that have found a way to make money off the trend. One company particular is called Office Tiger. The firm was set up five years ago by two Americans, and joining us today is one of them Randy Altschuler, one of the co- founders ...
LISOVICZ: One of the astonishing things that we have seen in the outsourcing is that we have seen increasingly sophisticated jobs exported overseas; historically it's just been confined to manufacturing, now we see really huge meteoric growth in IT. Your staff in India has advanced degrees. Is that correct?
ALTSCHULER: That's right. In fact our entire staff has graduate degrees, one-third of them having post-graduate degrees. Seven percent of them have PhDs. So it's a very highly educated staff.
LISOVICZ: Where have they been educated? I'm just curious.
ALTSCHULER: At universities in India, as well as some people have spent time in the United States and the United Kingdom, and then come back to India.
SERWER: Randy, obviously this outsourcing thing has become a tremendous hot-button topic. A lot of people are pointing fingers. I'm a real free market guy. I don't have a problem with what you guys are doing. But how do you respond to people who say you are un- American? What do you have to say about that?
ALTSCHULER: There are two trends in outsourcing right now. One is all about cost cutting, and taking a job here, firing somebody here and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does. We are involved with the second trend, which is how can we enhance the services and the jobs that Americans are doing here domestically? And that's what we're really focused on. It's a very different kind of outsourcing.
CAFFERTY: Are you an American company or an Indian company?
ALTSCHULER: We are an American company.
CAFFERTY: Why can't you do this in America?
ALTSCHULER: The question is, if American companies are going to become more competitive, they need to focus on providing higher value added services to their clients. So you want the professional here doing different kinds of things than he or she is doing today. Office Tiger allows them to take some of the more traditional tasks and outsource that offshore.
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 00:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
::ALTSCHULER: Again, just to go back to what I was saying before. There are two different kinds of outsourcing. One is taking a center job here, or a data entry job here, and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does. Office Tiger is actually trying to make the professionals here more productive and grow their job responsibilities. So in fact, it's actually enhancing what professionals do here. It's very different than just shifting jobs off shore. (Emphasis mine).
I welcome an opportunity to reach a consensus with Arbor before the page goes live. I do not want this page to turn into a platform for anyone's view on outsourcing, because such a discussion is designed to confuse and mislead readers. I will make a good faith attempt to work out the issue with Arbor, and I hope we can come to an understanding. I just want to avoid a situation where her edits are the default--I want it to be a clean slate. I also want it to be short, concise on both sides so that the page is not consumed by this topic.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
However, I do believe that in situation such as this where reliable sources say different things, that we should err on the side of caution. For example, in a recent endorsement of Altschuler by the New York Post, OfficeTiger was described as "offering business-support and employment services." Here. In situations such as here, where reliable sources say diverging things, a BLP article should be written as narrowly and conservatively as possible in order not to portray facts in a negative light or mislead readers.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:24, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In response to your question of my connection to the subject of the article, I am a supporter of his and a Republican, and I would like to seem him elected to Congress. In the interest of fairness, this question should be posed to Arbor, as she has made many, many edits on various pages that seem to favor Democrat candidates for either election or re-election (depending on the race). I suspect that this is a simple case of Republican vs. Democrat, Wikipedia style.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Arbor- I would have assumed good faith if you had engaged in a discussion on this talk page from the get-go, and if you had refrained from making unsourced edits, as you did on several occasions. Also, I do not believe I engaged in name-calling, and I am offended at the insinuation, especially since you should also assume good faith from me--it cuts both ways.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Also, statements such as "OfficeTiger is an outsourcing company. It just IS" illustrates the central debate. We can both point to sources that call OfficeTiger different things and describe it differently--why then must the most inflammatory term be used? That hardly seems appropriate in a BLP article.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I just wish to highlight Wikipedia guidelines on editing content: "Policies and guidelines are supposed to state what most Wikipedians agree upon, and should be phrased to reflect the present consensus on a subject. In general, more caution should be exercised in editing policies and guidelines than in editing articles. Minor edits to existing pages, such as formatting changes, grammatical improvement and uncontentious clarification, may be made by any editor at any time. However, changes that would alter the substance of policy or guidelines should normally be announced on the appropriate talk page first. The change may be implemented if no objection is made to it or if discussion shows that there is consensus for the change. Major changes should also be publicized to the community in general, as should proposals for new policy pages." (Emphasis mine) See Here.
Again, I am open to compromise, but I do believe that his use of the term is immaterial when use on a wikipedia page will lead readers to conclude something that Altschuler's words do not state. Also, we have sources that call it outsourcing and sources that do not. In situations like that, we should be conservative with using an inflammatory, loaded word.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As an aside, since I disclosed my connection to the subject, I think its only fair for Arbor to disclose her relationship (if any).-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 01:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I look forward to discussing this matter with Arbor and reaching a consensus in the next few days. I also do request that Arbor reveal what, if any, affiliation she has with this campaign or, judging from her editorial history, any bias or viewpoint she has. Since I revealed mine, fairness requires she do the same. After that point, I will gladly engage in discussion on either this talk page, her talk page, or my talk page (I have no particular preference and am amenable to any forum).-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 03:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As an aside, its not just the New York Post that describes OfficeTiger without mentioning outsourcing. A New York Times article from October 23, 2009 says "Mr. Altschuler, who lives in St. James, was a fund-raiser for Senator John McCain’s presidential campaign last year. He has founded and run Office Tiger, a business-support services company he later sold, and CloudBlue, which recycles electronic equipment." Here. And the one thing I think we can all agree on is that the New York Times is not generally known for "whitewashing" in ways that would benefit Republicans :). Arbor has linked to sites that use the word outsoursing, and I have linked to sites that do not. I assert that use of the word in this context is unnecessary and misleading, and I have reliable sources that had an opportunity to use the word and did not. Let's try to figure out a common ground.
Additionally, SlimVirgin, no one is talking about articles ignoring points of view; rather, the debate is over the best means for expressing those differing points of view. The word outsourcing is unnecessary in my view to convey that OfficeTiger had 4,000 employees worldwide and that it performed business-support services for client companies.
As another matter, I do not agree that it follows that since Altschuler referred to outsourcing, that outsourcing is the word that we must use in this article. That's like saying that since President Obama refers to the health care reform bill as "health insurance reform," here and here. that in Mr. Obama's article, the hearing about HCR should reflect his terminology. However, that is not the case, because his Wikipedia article refers to "health care reform." It has no bearing what he called the reform efforts (and subsequently, what liberal blogs called the reform effort here.)--what matters is that the article uses "health care reform" because it is the most natural and useful term. The article does not use health insurance reform, and it does not refer to it as Obamacare (or other right-wing terms), even though both are rhetorical devises that tend to be linked to a particular point of view. The article stays noncontroversial and informative. So it is there, so to it should be here. Outsourcing is a loaded term that, like using either Obamacare or health insurance reform, will generate a reaction by its simple appearance in an article. Wikipedia strives to present most points of view, but it need not do so in the most inflammatory ways possible. All I ask is that we apply this principle here. -- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 03:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Arbor, you asked where to go from here. Can you write up on this page what you'd like to add to the article? I suggest using the CNN source and others to describe the company, then add something about Altschuler saying it's a different kind of outsourcing, just something very brief. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 04:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
In case it's helpful, here are some sources discussing Altschuler and outsourcing:
Just five years ago, they were junior investment bankers at the Blackstone Group and Goldman Sachs, one in New York City, the other in London. During one particularly long night of proofreading PowerPoint slides and commiserating by phone about finding yet another error courtesy of their companies' in-house document service, they had an epiphany. They would find a better way of doing that work.
This was at the height of the dotcom boom, and everyone they knew was trying to figure out a way to Silicon Valley. These two had a different idea. They would go to India, set up a team of accountants and desktop-publishing experts and persuade investment banks in New York to outsource their confidential financial documents and client presentations halfway around the world.
The entrepreneurs' families, not to mention Silicon Valley's venture capitalists, "were looking at us in a crazy way," Sigelman says, especially when he relocated to Madras. Five years later, as it moves into more complex work, OfficeTiger, with $18 million from British investors, plans to increase the number of its employees in India this year from 1,500 to 2,500 and more than triple its U.S. work force, from 30 to 100."
OfficeTiger, however, will continue its operations as an independent unit and its co-founders, Joseph 'Joe' Sigelman and Randolph 'Randy' Altschuler, will continue as its co-presidents.
While Sigelman operates from India, Altschuler sits in New York.
The story of the two young men chucking their high-paying jobs (Randy was in private equity at The Blackstone Group and Joe with Goldman Sachs International in London [ Images ] in the Investment Banking Division) to enter the outsourcing arena, from India, has become a legend now. ... Both knew the concept called business process outsourcing (BPO) would work. 'We hadn't an iota of doubt about it. Probably, stupid confidence, but we were confident.'"
'I have built several successful businesses from the ground up and I am proud that I have created hundreds of jobs across the United States,' he said in a written statement to CQ Politics."
I would point to other points in the CQ article listed above: "Technically, OfficeTiger did not outsource jobs because it did not eliminate U.S. jobs and move them overseas. But it did employ thousands of workers in Chennai, India, to supply business services to U.S. companies."
Also, the USA Today article from 2005 and the New York Times articles from 2009, both which I previously cited above, merit equal consideration.
I also maintain that the initial description of OfficeTiger should be as neutral as possible, with more elaboration following it. It can even be in its own paragraph in the same section if the concern is burying the info in a paragraph.
Its amazing how much more civil a debate can be after a good night sleep :) -- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 20:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
I have no doubt that you all will let me know what you think ;) Arbor832466 ( talk) 20:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
General Note on Sources: The book you cite to was published in November 2004, but there is no date given as to when the interview was with Altschuler. In addition, the CNN interview was also in February 2004. I Think we need to look at sources written later on, but that center on when OT was an independent company (2005-early 2006). Sources from that era will have more accurate numbers and locations of employment. As for the rediff source, it is unclear if that article is referring to OT as an independent company or as part of RR Donnelly. What is wrong with the articles I listed from USA Today, CQ, and the New York Times?-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 20:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
(2 x ec) Can we go through it line by line?
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing company (BPO) that performes back office support services for American companies in India and Sri Lanka. [1] [2] Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 10,000 employees around the world, including 4,000 in India. [3]
Altschuler has said he rejects the characterization of OfficeTiger as a "traditional outsourcing company," with the implication that the company directly moves jobs from the United States to Asia. He contends that OfficeTiger's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." [4] Altschuler's political opponents, however, continue to decry Altschuler as an "outsourcing pioneer." [5]
In April 2006, OfficeTiger was sold to global offshoring provider RR Donnelley [6] for $250 Million. [7]
So, sentence by sentence:
The book you cite to was published in November 2004, but there is no date given as to when the interview was with Altschuler. In addition, the CNN interview was also in February 2004. I Think we need to look at sources written later on, but that center on when OT was an independent company (2005-early 2006). Sources from that era will have more accurate numbers and locations of employment. As for the rediff source, it is unclear if that article is referring to OT as an independent company or as part of RR Donnelly. What is wrong with the articles I listed from USA Today, CQ, and the New York Times?-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 21:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
My own revised draft: I would change it to "In 1999, Altschuler and and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business support services company headquartered in New York, and grew into an international company with over 4,000 employees in various countries around the world, including England, India, Sri Lanka, and the Philippines. (Sources--NYT article I linked to above and business week description at the very top of the discussion page." Altschuler and Seligmann sold OfficeTiger in 2006 to RR Donnelly & Co for $250 million. Source to sale.
The first sentence looks fine to me. The second sentence: "Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 10,000 employees around the world, including 4,000 in India."
This seems to be a point of contention. Which is the best-quality source for the number of employees and their location? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Is this source acceptable?: http://www.cloudblue.com/content/randy-altschuler-chairman This site was used by Arbor previously in one of her edits: http://www.ebusinessforum.com/index.asp?layout=rich_story&doc_id=8344&categoryid=&channelid=&search=colombo . It mentions OfficeTiger having 4000 employees around the world.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 22:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
So the second sentence would be: "Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 3,000 employees, 2000 of them in Chennai, India, as of 2005." Sourced to the UPenn business school site.
Third and fourth sentences go together: "Altschuler has said he rejects the characterization of OfficeTiger as a "traditional outsourcing company," with the implication that the company directly moves jobs from the United States to Asia. He contends that OfficeTiger's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." Sourced to a CNN interview with him. [11]
Mr Wilson, any objections? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 23:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
How about this? "Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not move American jobs overseas. He has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." Sourced to CNN interview SlimVirgin talk| contribs 23:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As a general question, once we reach a consensus, I assume that just the Business Career portion of this page will remain protected through the election to prevent vandalism? I am perfectly fine with that. I just think the rest of the page should be opened for edits.-- HeyMrWilson87 ( talk) 23:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
(ec) If Arbor is fine with them, the third and fourth sentences are: "Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not move American jobs overseas. He has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." Sourced to CNN interview
So we seem to have:
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing company (BPO) that performes back office support services for American companies in India and Sri Lanka. [1] [2] Under their leadership, OfficeTiger grew into a successful company, with more than 3,000 employees, 2000 of them in Chennai, India, as of 2005. [3] Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not move American jobs overseas; he has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." [1] In April 2006, OfficeTiger was sold to global offshoring provider RR Donnelley for $250 million. [4]
SlimVirgin talk| contribs 01:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
In 1999, Altschuler and Princeton classmate Joseph Sigelman started OfficeTiger, a business process outsourcing company (BPO) that performes back office support services for American companies. [1] [2] As of 2005, OfficeTiger had 3000 employees around the world, with 2000 in Channai, India, and the rest distributed among OfficeTiger's headquarters in New York and smaller offices in Sri Lanka, Great Britain and Germany. [3] "Altschuler has said OfficeTiger is not a traditional outsourcing company, in that it did not directly move American jobs overseas. He has said the company's overseas employees "enhance the services and jobs that Americans are doing here domestically." [4]
Arbor, you should just go ahead and come up with a reasonable compromise now, one that's compliant with the sources and fair to Altschuler. The article will be unprotected in a few hours, then you can add it as you see fit. Cheers, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 04:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The sentence " However, later in the same interview, Altschuler admitted some companies use OfficeTiger to 'cut costs and save money by shipping jobs off shore.'" in the Office Tiger section is a complete misquote of what Mr. Altschuler said in the cited source, which was "There are two trends in outsourcing right now. One is all about cost cutting, and taking a job here, firing somebody here and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does. We are involved with the second trend, which is how can we enhance the services and the jobs that Americans are doing here domestically?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 18:06, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
Arbor, I'm restoring my edit since the text I changed was in total contradiction with the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 23:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
CAFFERTY: Why can't you do this in America? ALTSCHULER: The question is, if American companies are going to become more competitive, they need to focus on providing higher value added services to their clients. So you want the professional here doing different kinds of things than he or she is doing today. Office Tiger allows them to take some of the more traditional tasks and outsource that offshore.
I don't know who Mr Wilson is. He says he is not connected to Altschuler, and of course I accept that. I would only add that this is a public page, and that the IP addresses of whoever has been making these edits has been logged, because some of them were made logged out. These kinds of discussions sometimes attract attention off Wikipedia, and not always in a way that enhances the reputation of the subject, which is most unfair if the subject has not been involved. This discussion is potentially drawing more attention to the outsourcing issue than the original material in the article did. Something to bear in mind. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 22:27, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
As the dispute seems to be resolved, I've unprotected and made the section in question visible again. Arbor, please feel free to tweak it as discussed. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 19:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd added semi-protection because of past problems that may be starting up again. Logan, and anyone else who edits the article, please make sure anything you add is really well-sourced, and doesn't deviate from the sources. See WP:SOURCES for a description of what counts as a reliable source. Also see WP:BLP. Many thanks, SlimVirgin talk| contribs 18:47, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
You should vet the edits being made to this article closely. Some of the sources used are not legitimate under WP:SOURCES.-- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 18:59, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Misspelling of WP:SOURCES corrected.-- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 19:00, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Charges of carpetbagging were prominent in both the primary and general election when Altschuler who had moved to the district two years before the run took on lifelong Southampton resident Tim Bishop.
During the primary Altschulter accused Cox of not even paying Suffolk taxes (Cox who lived in the same New York City apartment building as his father registered to vote at his uncle's home in Westhampton Beach in 2010). Cox, whose father Edward F. Cox was born in Westhampton Beach, noted that his family had 160 years of family history in the district while charging that Altschulter had just been shopping for a district where he could get elected. Altschuler had lived in New Jersey prior to the move. Virginia Newmann Littell, chairwoman of the New Jersey Republican Party, said that Altchulter had once inquired about challenging Scott Garrett in the New Jersey's 5th congressional district. Littell noted that Altschulter has a liberal rather than conservative background including endorsement from the Republican Leadership Council and had spent some time in the Green Party. [1] [2] [3]
Urbanelephants is a group blog and shouldn't be used, esp not for anything contentious. To the anon, is there any false in the edit, anything unsourced, or are the other sources objectionable? SlimVirgin talk| contribs 19:14, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
The Daily News and Capital Tonight sources appear to be legitimate. The portions about New Jersey residency is false and not supported by any sources. The letter from the former Chairwoman regards a private meeting and the contents of that have never been independently verified. Additionally, the information about Cox, Bishop, and ALtschuler's residency should be shortened to simply say Altschuler moved to St. James in 2008. Cox's residency and Bishop's residency is irrelevant in this article.-- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 19:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't want to have to go through this material and decide which part is supported by which source. But I also don't want to be in a position as admin of protecting inappropriate material. So I'm moving the section here. Americasroof (or anyone else), if you want to keep this, please write it so that it contains only material that is clearly relevant, and clearly sourced to reliable sources, per WP:SOURCES. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 20:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
Charges of carpetbagging were prominent in both the primary and general election when Altschuler who had moved to the district two years before the run took on lifelong Southampton resident Tim Bishop.
During the primary Altschulter accused Cox of not even paying Suffolk taxes [1] Cox who lived in the same New York City apartment building as his father registered to vote at his uncle's home in Westhampton Beach in 2010. [2] Cox, whose father Edward F. Cox was born in Westhampton Beach, noted that his family had 160 years of family history in the district [3] while charging that Altschulter had just been shopping for a district where he could get elected. Cox charged that Altschuler had lived in New Jersey prior to the move and published a letter from Virginia Newmann Littell, chairwoman of the New Jersey Republican Party, saying that Altchulter had once inquired about challenging Scott Garrett in the New Jersey's 5th congressional district. Littell noted that Altschulter has a liberal rather than conservative background including endorsement from the Republican Leadership Council and had spent some time in the Green Party. [4] [5] [6]
I agree that the Suffolk County Liberty Report does not appear to come close to what WP:SOURCES requires for a legitimate source. I also do not think that, for the most part, the NY Daily News and Capitol Tonight sources say what AR asserts they do. AR seems to be quoting press releases that were published in full, not independent reporting by the reporters. If quoting press releases published in full is acceptable, it seems a backdoor way to attack WP:BLP subjects. Also, some information, even if from a valid source, seems out of place in this article. Why should this article have information about Ed Cox's birthplace? IMHO, such info should go in his own wikipedia entry--and maybe in the entry for Christopher Nixon Cox (which was recently heavily edited by AR). -- 96.57.62.106 ( talk) 21:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm new to Wiki, so I wanted to discuss it with people on here first. This page does not include the final election results, which have been available for months. Altschuler lost by 593 votes (per Suffolk County Board of Elections, see link : http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/boe/eleres/10ge/ I feel this page should include the final tally. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdavi410 ( talk • contribs) 04:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm new to wiki so I thought maybe I could get some help (yes I'll play in the sandbox so I can learn to things for myself).
Until then here is some info that would enhance the Randy Altschuler article.
1. Randy and his wife Cheryl recently anonounced the birth of their new born daughter, Cheryl. http://www.facebook.com/joinrandy
2. Cheryl was born in Thailand and prior to becoming a pediatrician, was a professional ballet dancer with the Washington Ballet. Her parents are Charles Sladkin a retired CIA employee who once was awarded the (pretigious) W. Averell Harriman Award, and Yumei Sladkin A Taiwnese born businesswoman who owns Oriental Decor, stores in Rockville, Md., and in Tyson's Corner, Va., where they also own Emissary, a linen store.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/07/style/weddings-cheryl-sladkin-randolph-altschuler.html http://www.circularpower.com/PointeMagazine_Article.html http://www.ndi.org/harriman_democracy_award — Preceding unsigned comment added by Long island bob ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Hey guys
I'm new here.
I realize I've messed up a couple of links but, well, I'm working on it.
I'd like to thank Danger for welcoming me on board, and to wish him well with his health issues.
I'm still trying to add two more sentences of background about Altschuler's company Cloudblue, but since I'm hving trouble posting proper links I think I'll go back to teh andbox for awhile.
Oh the sentences are:
1.
In the case of computers, Cloudblue erases and destroys the computer’s hard drive on the customer's site. All electronics (computer or otherwise), are then disassembled at one of the company’s processing sites. Reusable components are sold and remnants are exported to countries where the recycling continues.
SOURCE:
http://cloudblue.com/content/our-process
And
2.
In May 2011, the company announced it had plans to build three new processing facilities (in Texas, California and Puerto Rico, and expand its plants in Chicago IL, Dallas TX, and Joliet, IL)
SOURCES:
http://www.enviroblyss.com/2011/05
and
http://www.cloudblue.com/news/cloudblue-expands-global-reach-meet-electronics-disposition-demand
I am not trying to disrupt the page. It's just that I am not an HTML jockey and I'm new here so sometimes I can't figure out the right way to pot a good link.
~Bob
Long island bob (
talk) 22:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Long island bob (
talk) 22:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
This section is a wild distortion which is not substantiated by the cited article, which merely repeats a press release issued by an opponent. The article does not report on the substance of the claims, just the existence of an allegation. Not NPOV by a long shot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 11:16, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
As for the source -- there is no problem with WP:RS here (and if you think otherwise, you can go to the relevant noticeboard). Your own feelings about the source, the interpretation you are putting on it, are completely irrelevant, per WP:OR. Nomoskedasticity ( talk) 07:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I disagree completely on WP:RS. The source simply does not support the allegation of a "Controversy" but merely states that an opponent has made an allegation. A controversy must have more than one participant. Furthermore, the circular reference is quite galling. If one candidate issued a press release claiming another was a martian, and a newspaper picked it up and printed "A calls B a Martian" would it be WP:RS to claim that candidate B was in fact a cited, verified and confirmed martian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.56.191.42 ( talk) 15:58, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
As far as the "reliability" of brookster22, the user who posted this section, goes see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Sdavi410/Archive. Brookster22 is one of the sockpuppets used by SDavi410 whose entire wikipedia history, apart from placing this setion in Mr. Altschuler's page, consists of supporting the source of the allegation, George Demos. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Brookster22. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhoge123 ( talk • contribs) 16:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
This source notes there were "identical releases from Altschuler and Doug Hoffman" - which would not qualify as a self published source because it makes no mention of the press release. Daily News obviously an RS - so this should be included. But I agree with Jhoge123 that we can have a discussion as to the wording.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/ny-1-hopeful-george-demos-call.html
Jpeter718 (
talk) 19:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)