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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
I added a couple sentences to the end of the paragraph that mentioned David Friedman to explain the economic argument in favor of polygamy better. I don't think what I added was perfect, but I do think that the economic argument is important to include in any complete article about polygamy.
When people arrive at this TALK page, they need to know firsthand that there is a dispute going on. Buring it deeper in the TALK page amounts to an aggressive act of trying to hide it from new arrivals here. Nereocystis knows that I am in conversation with AMAs and seeking to resolve the issue. To continue to advance the "outline" idea on this TALK page here, while knowing that we are still in the process of finding resolution (and that I am conversing with AMAs) is another extremely aggressive act by Nereocystis. No action should be occurring until we can really get the problems solved.
I had posted this section at the top of this TALK page, but Nereocystis sought to hide it. Here is what Nereocystis said when they tried to bury this from the top of the page.
There is a lot of dispute on the content of polygamy. Interested parties should look at the archives and at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Researcher99.
Please emphasize the text of the polygamy article on this page. Nereocystis 20:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed the NPOV which Researcher99 put on the talk page, since NPOV doesn't belong on a Talk page. Talk pages usually include a lot of POV in the process of making the article NPOV.
I also removed the dubious tags from the polygamy rewrite. If someone doesn't like it, discuss it. Provide citations. It is a work in progress, of course there are changes to be made. Nereocystis 20:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As a matter of valid information, this has been restored to the top, as the dispute continues to go forward to a hopeful resolution. Researcher 17:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
This entire TALK page is not valid, being the result of an unapproved takeover. We were in the middle of a previous dispute resolution and this TALK page wrongly got changed and directed without the approval of the two parties involved, Nereocystis and myself. The last valid version of this TALK page, before that hostile takeover, was on 14:24, 18 August 20.
When I tried to provide further evidence of all the attacks on this invalid TALK page here, Dunkelza immediately hid the evidence by removing it.
The fact that the hostile parties here want this illegitimate version of the TALK page to continue in its current invalid form, and going so far as to purposely prevent and hide the evidence of the abuse and dispute, is further proof of the abuse I am receiving and te illegitimacy of the current TALK page. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As all know, I am in the process of selecting an AMA. All parties should cease their agendas here and await what happens with that. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The discussion below occurred after an aggressive takeover that was not approved by all parties in the previous dispute. The last valid version of this TALK page, before the hostile takeover, was on 14:24, 18 August 20. All participation on thse subheaded subtopics should cease untilthe larger issues of dispute are resolved. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As readers may see from the following, Nereocystis admits to the deceptive act of trying to bury the important notice for new arrivals, in order to make it appear as though anything on this current TALK page about the polygamy article has a valid basis, while we are in the minddle of an ongoing dispute resolution issue. Referring to ths abve section after they had buried it, Nereocystis admitted,
[This was posted by Researcher99 at the top of the page, and refers to a discussion of the outline of the polygamy article. Nereocystis 20:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)]
Once again, they have sought to hide the evidence so that they may give the false appearance of supposed legitimacy of this non-accepted version of the TALK pages that interrupted the resolution process. The only way to effectively and instantly alert new arrivalst this TALK page is by use of the NPOV tag. While it may be more usable for articles, it is still an essential tool for this current situation. To aggresively hide it is only to seek to prevent new Wikipedia users arriving here from being alerted as much as they really need to be. Researcher 17:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Researcher99 and Nereocystis have agreed to allow me (as an unoffical mediator) to guide them through a process that will hopefully end the dispute and provide an accurate and NPOV article on polygamy. See the archives for a history of the dispute. Uriah923 15:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
While I do not want you to feel abused, the past really has nothing to do with putting together a quality NPOV article. As I mentioned, I think it best to start with outlines. Quality content can be added to these and a preliminary article posted without a NPOV tag. I anticipate that will happen quickly after I receive your outlines. Uriah923 18:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Addressing how you have been harmed will not bring us any closer to a quality, non-disputed, NPOV article. That is my only goal. One way to do that would be to dig through the volumes of bickering between you two in an attempt to locate a status quo. However, due to the insane amount of edits and discussing, that way is painful and unnecessarily complicated. A much more effective way is to start CLEAN (which is fair to all involved). If we can avoid worrying about the past, this will progress much more quickly to what we all want (quality, non-disputed, NPOV article). Uriah923 19:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
If by 'run over' you mean I have disregarded your arguments, that is true. I disregarded arguments from all parties because they were getting everyone nowhere. Starting from a blank canvas will allow all to see that ONLY valid, source-backed, NPOV material has been added. It will allow all, both self-avowed experts and those who are only interested, to contribute under the same criteria - that they provide NPOV, valid and note-worthy sources for the material contributed. There is absolutely no reason to address any alleged past abuse as it would only serve to soothe your wounds - not to produce a quality article.
If you refuse to participate, then there is no chance of any resolution. Uriah923 21:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Dunkelza. It was my impression that Researcher99 had until August 26 to finish his outline, which was yesterday. He has been given enough time to do this and our progress on this article should not be delayed any longer. I suggest that we focus our energy on fine-tuning Nereocystis' outline and begin work on rewriting the article. If Researcher99 doesn't want to give any valuable input and insists on rehashing old, perceived "abuses," then we should proceed without him. Kewp 12:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
The first thing I want from both Researcher99 and Nereocystis is a top-level outline of the ideal contents of the article. This should be brief and contain no text - only headings and maybe some sub-headings. As Researcher99 is going to be out of town, we will allow approximately a week for both of you to provide the outline. Uriah923 15:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
You are correct. After we have a solid, agreed upon foundation of what topics need to be covered and in what order we can move on to slowly add content that is NPOV and backed by valid references. Uriah923 18:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
This is not about anyone 'getting away with' anything or about anyone being 'harmed.' The only goal here is to improve the article. As the two of you have been unable to do this, I have offered to provide structure to facilitate it. Arguing over past hurts will only delay any progress. Uriah923 19:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I have listened to and addressed each of your concerns. However, I am not going to give you preferential treatment. All parties will start on an equal footing and, as I mentioned in the above thread, will be given the same requirements for submitting content. If you are the expert you claim to be, and if Nereocystis is as uknowledgeable as you say he is, then this will work in your favor as you will be able to provide more valid, source-backed, NPOV material. Uriah923 21:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
See Polygamy/Rewrite for the latest version.
Here's my first draft of the outline.
Should Polygamy and religion be under polygamy worldwide, as it is at present. I initially moved it there. I'm not sure now.
I suggest merging "How polygamists find more spouses" into "Polygamy and religion". Each type of polygamy could be described.
I imagine "Current status of civil polygamous marriage" as being similar to Same-sex marriage#Current status of same-sex civil marriage. Nereocystis 20:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
That sounds good. Simple means less room for argument before we need it. One copy is also a good idea. Nereocystis 21:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
You have a "Current Proponents and Opponents" section. Should we have a "Historical Proponents and Opponents" section as well, or maybe just merge them? I would also like to see a historical treatment in the "Polygamy Worldwide" section as well.
Dunkelza 13:43, 21 August 2005 (EDT)
Originally, I had a number of subcategories. In the interest of an easy first step, Uriah923 removed the subcategories. Agreeing on the major categories may be difficult enough. Here is an earlier version. I removed "current" from "proponents and opponents". The category can be ordered historically, if need be.
"Forms of polygamy" currently just lists polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage. "Forms of polygamy" is a bad title here, though introducing the idea of polygyny, polyandry, group marriage, and possible gender neutral groups is important, since polygamy is often used as strictly polygyny. I'm troubled by having religion and worldwide as separate categories. I don't know what goes where. Perhaps these should be combined. Religion is often important to polygamy, but so is the country. Please make suggestions. I'll save under-age polygamy until the topics are better fleshed out. I don't know which articles it belongs in yet. Let's handle the outlines first, later will come the controversies. Nereocystis 04:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Let's try seperating religion from geography, and see what happens. There is a lot of cross-over. I would like one section to be very short, describing the 3 basic forms of heterosexual polygamy. A later section should split polygamy into sub-subcategories. I don't like the title "Related terms", but it is important to explain that polygamy is not identical to polyamory. Perhaps the definition of marriage and family needs to be tightened while we're at it, using anthropological definitions, and allowing modern variations on the theme. That may explain the differences between polyamory and polygamy more clearly. Nereocystis 17:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
That's a really good question. We could make polygamy an overview article with links to polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage covering most of the details. None of these issues covers the issue of marriage to more than one person, regardless of sex, such as suggested by Emens, Elizabeth F. (2004). "Monogamy's Law: Compulsory Monogamy and Polyamorous Existence". New York University Review of Law & Social Change. 29 (2): 277. I suppose that gets covered in polygamy, unless group marriage is willing to take it.
I see the following articles as strongly related:
Can we cover all of the articles, marriage briefly, defining it with a standard anthropology definition; then hit monogamy; cover the types of polygamy under polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage, then fill in the details at polygamy again? Under polygamy we would have a synopsis of topics covered elsewhere, and more details in certain areas.
I split the outline above into the areas where I think the most details belongs. Many of the choices are arbitrary. The group marriage discussion started about the time Researcher99 and I tried resolving our differences. It was painful, as usual.
We can back out the outline changes if this is too confusing for now. Nereocystis 18:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
A template is an interesting idea. I don't know exactly what it would look like, but someone should try it.
Could we start with a definition of marriage. Murdock 1949 says:
He later describes polygamous relationships of course. I can't quickly find a definition in his "Ethnographic Atlas", which is quite short. His definition of marriage doesn't mention gender, though his types of polygamy do mention gender quite specifically. A newer definition of marriage from anthropology would be good. For now, I would limit my changes to marriage to that definition.
I prefer the indentation standard in Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Layout, especially in a long series of back of forth. It prevents later conversations taking place in the far right. However, there is room for confusion with this indentation style as well. Nereocystis 16:41, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
This looks good so far. I agree with modern. I apologize for using an older definition, though so many of WP's references, and others as well led to this source. I do think that finding a definition of marriage helps to explain polygamy, for the anthropology and sociology sections. One or two sentences should be enough. Perhaps it doesn't need to be moved to the marriage article yet, but we need it for our purposes. Since any anthropological or sociological definition of polygamy has to refer to marriage, this won't cost us much. Nereocystis 17:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I filled in some information at the beginning of Dunkelza's outline. I hope this is the right direction. Nereocystis 03:00, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I suggest creating a page called Polygamy/Rewrite. It allows the page to appear as it will be. And we can get the number of "=" correct, and shows what the page will really look like.
I put an old anthropology definition in for polygamy. We do need to modernize, but this is all I have so far.
Where do we go from here? How long should we take? Do we move sections over as they are somewhat filled in? Nereocystis 17:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I created a page called Polygamy/Rewrite, which contains the latest version of the polygamy rewrite, before Researcher's changes. If he wants that participate, that's fine. Please add citations for additions. Nereocystis 20:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Nereocystis, it's rather useful to leave the NPOV tags while the dispute is ongoing. This is for making more comprehensive the current situation to any newcoming editor. -- Neigel von Teighen 22:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
My proposal can be summarized as "to do everthing so this thing doesn't go into an Arbitration". Any comments? I'll tell Researcher about this. -- Neigel von Teighen 19:03, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how this mediation thing works. As it is, it is impossible for anybody else to contribute to the Polygamy article without having to sift through paragraphs and pages of Researcher99's accusations and efforts to buy time. Is it the case that nothing further can be contributed to the article until this dispute, which has been going on for months, is resolved? This talk page is a mess, mostly because of Researcher99's increasingly frantic badgering of other contributers who came to the page genuinely interested in making this page better--their contributions are labeled as POV "anti-polygamy propaganda" [2], which is nothing but unsupported abuse. Is the RfC going forward? (I think it should, as Researcher99 has shown himself to be unable to work with and respect other editors) If there is a mediation, where will it take place? on the Talk:Polygamy page? Who will be included? New people who want to help with the page are effectively being scared away by the mammoth size of the talk page (mostly due to Researcher99's comments). There has to be something done about this, soon. Kewp 08:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Due to the current attemps to resolve this hotly disputed article, I feel I should make this comment. I don't want to step on toes but I think it needs to be said. Ignoring for a minute that most people probably regard the Christianity bit at the end as extremely POV and too poorly written to merit inclusing in Wikipedia, most of these same arguments can be made for Islamic polygyny. For example, in a number of Islamic countries the husband is required to get the written permission of the current wife/ves before taking another one and in theory at least is not allowed to coerce the any of the wife/ves into accepting. Similarly as has been mentioned in the article, in many cases the rights of each wife is protected and the husband is supposed to be fair to each wife (although the interpretation of this varies). While in pratice, the rights of women in a number of Islamic countries may be limited, this is not always the case and in this is really a seperate issue. In fact, I'm sure most of the arguments can not only be made for Islamic polygyny but polygamy in many other religious and non-religious instances as well. Therefore, I fail to see how even if we decide to include the bit on Christian polygamy at the end it can be limited to Christianity... 60.234.141.76 21:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm conflicted about adding this section again. Some of us are in the middle of a rewrite. One of Researcher99's has pointed out that there is no longer a description of disputes in this section. I have added one of the worst of the incidents, which was referred to by #Christianity & Islam. Perhaps more will be added. Perhaps we will continue with the rewrite. Nereocystis 23:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
This section is badly POV. There are a few issues. Mormons consider themselves Christians. The phrase:
implicitly excludes polygamous Mormon fundamentalists, who make up a large part of Christian polygamists, and often live in communities of other Mormon polygamists,
This sentence:
is also quite POV, suggesting that any other interpretation of Christian polygamy is inferior to this interpretation.
In addition, this section describes the teachings of truthbearer.org, which is a group or sect of Christian polygamists, the group that Researcher99 seems to be associated with. I'm not sure what the right word is for this group. Other non-Mormon Christian polygamists disagree with this group. http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM051-History.html describes some of the beliefs of other Christian polygamists. I'm not clear about how many people these web sites represent, but they consider themselves to be Christian polygamists, who disagree with the love-not-force concept. God's Free Men and Women also has a different take on Christian polygamy. Both of them were once associated, perhaps slightly, with truthbearer.org. Here's a possible rewrite
Researcher99 previously responded to this suggestion at Talk:Polygamy/Archive 4#NPOV - Yep, I know..., and objects to the rewrite, but did not give an alternative version. I have added this to RfCs Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Religion and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society and law. Nereocystis 23:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I made a mistake. I forgot to add the item to the religion page. It's there now. You're right that a discussion would be good. I only slightly understand. Researcher99 considers the other web sites to be single individuals, and not worthy of mention. I think that mentioning love-not-force almost requires the mention of a competing viewpoint, even if it were just one crazy loner. Clearly, love-not-force is implicitly referring to another believe on women's right to choose polygamy. Nereocystis 07:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
I've requested mediation for the dispute ongoing here between Researcher99 and Nereocystis (See WP:RFM). Anyone interested in joining it, please report yourself to that page. Please, do it if you have been really involved in the dispute and not just because you want to be part of something "funny"; this is serious. Also, don't think on any kind of suckpuppetry -- Neigel von Teighen 22:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
The mediation failed, at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Researcher99 and Nereocystis. We're now on to arbitration at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#User:Researcher99 on the Polygamy and Group marriage pages and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Abuses on Polygamy article. Perhaps we're reaching the end soon. Nereocystis 23:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy has been accepted; it is a merger of the two requests. A brief statement of the case would be appreciated at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy. Place evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy/Evidence. From Fred Bauder's post at User talk:Nereocystis#Arbitration accepted. Nereocystis 17:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy has indefinitely banned Researcher99 from edit articles related to polygamy. Now, we can move forward and decide what the polygamy article should look like. I will restore some of the small edits which Researcher99 opposed, adding comments in the talk page if it seems necessary. When time permits, I will look at some of the bigger issues. Thanks for your support during the last few months. Nereocystis 19:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I restored the definition of trigamy, since it is mentioned in the Oxford English Dictionary. I simplified the definition of bigamy. Please comment here if either change seems inappropriate. Nereocystis 00:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I could go either way. Originally, trigamy was deleted because Researcher99 claimed that it wasn't a word. It's possible that I overreacted and restored it because it is a word, whether or not it is necessary. On the other hand, why include bigamy, but not trigamy, though bigamy is much more common than trigamy. Does anyone else have opinions? Nereocystis 05:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Archiving sounds like a good idea. The possible rewrite could stay, at least for now. The accusations should be archived. I'll take a look at it in a few days if no one else does it. Nereocystis 21:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure where to put this question, but would it be possible/acceptable to place the description of Mormon polygamy as a subheading under Christian polygamy? It seems like the current outlined format implies that Mormons are not Christians, although I know that the fact that Mormons do consider themselves Christians has been acknowledged on this Talk page. JordeeBec 18:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Mormons should go under the Christian section because they are Christians. The Mormon Church's official title is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS). The LDS church has Christ in its name, how can any doubt their Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.103.119 ( talk) 14:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e. the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled."[Sahih Bukhari, Book 50 “Conditions”, Hadith 3.882]
Al-Fataawa al-Kubra of Ibn Taymiyah, part 3, Kitaab al-Nikaah: “… these conditions and similar ones are valid according to the madhhab of Imaam Ahmad and other scholars among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, such as ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, Shurayh al-Qaadi, al-Oozaa’i and Ishaaq. According to the madhhab of Maalik, the condition states that if he marries another wife, (the first wife) has the choice of what to do, and this is a valid condition. The woman has the right to leave him in this case. This is similar to the idea in the Madhhab of Imaam Ahmad. The basis for this is the hadeeth narrated by (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) in al-Saheehayn from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): ‘The most deserving of conditions to be fulfilled are those by means of which sexual intercourse becomes permissible for you.’ ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: ‘Rights are in accordance with conditions.’ The Prophet dictated that the conditions which make sexual intercourse permissible are more deserving of fulfilment than others. This is the ruling on conditions of this nature.”
al-Mughni of Ibn Qudamah Vol. 9, Page 483: “(A condition) that which must be fulfill. It is a condition wherein its benefit and worth are returned. Examples are stipulations wherein he (vows) not to remove her from her residence or land, or that he will not travel with her (to foreign lands), or that he will not take another wife while with her. All of these are conditions that he would be bound to fulfilling (if he agreed to them before cohabitation). If he does not honour the stipulations she is granted the ability (and right) to annul the marriage (at her will). This is reported as being the opinion of: Umar bin al-Khattab, Sa‘d bin Abi Waqas, Mu‘awiyah, ‘Amr bin al- ‘Aas (radia Allahu ‘Anhom). It was also stated by: Shurayh, ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-Aziz, Jabir bin Zayd, Tawus, Al-Awza‘i and Ishaq…….As well we have named many Sahaba who validated these stipulations, and none from their generation / peers refuted them. Therefore we establish this as being Ijma‘ (consensual agreement by them all).”
taken from a useful article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Houri/continue
http://www.answering-christianity.com/pious_woman.pdf
The Creation of Eve
Ibn Kathir relates the following:
“Ibn Abbas and a group of the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) narrated that when Iblis (Satan) was sent out of Paradise and Adam was accommodated therein, Adam was alone in Paradise and did not have a partner from whom he could get tranquility. He slept for some time and when he woke up, he saw a woman whom Allah had created from his ribs. So he asked her, "Who are you? She replied, "A woman" He asked: "Why have you been created?" She said :"So that you could find tranquility in me." The angels, trying to find out the extent of his knowledge, asked him: "What is her name, O Adam?" He replied, "Eve". They asked: "Why was she so named?" He replied, " Because she was created from something living."” 3
"O Mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam) and from Him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve), and from them both He created many men and women.” [Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa’(4):1]
God also said:
"It is he Who has created you from a single person (Adam) and then He created from him his wife (Eve), in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her." [ Qur’an, Surah Al-A’raf (7):189]
The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in his last sermon:
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action….”4
It is very clear without any trace of ambiguity that God created only one Adam for Eve and only one Eve for Adam. Qur’an speaks in most of the cases by referring to the male figure, but in general sense it implies both the male and the female.
By the above mentioned verses of the Qur’an it can be easily derived that God has created one person as a mate of another. It is love, pleasure and tranquility within each other that the two mates are in need of. By contemplating on the evidence given above it can be deduced that a male is naturally inclined toward only one female and the female is naturally inclined toward only one male. If it were other than that, then God would have created many Adams for Eve or many Eves for Adam. To create one, two, three or even a thousand Adams for Eve or create one, two, three or even a thousand Eves for Adam would have been very easy for God. Instead God did not create anything like that.
"So set you your face towards the religion (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in khalqillah (the Religion of Allah), that is the straight religion, but most men know not."[Qur’an, Surah Ar-Rum(30):30]
It is reasonable enough to say that Adam and Eve were created in the Fitrah, which means pure natural inclinations. One of human natural inclinations is to have one mate and jealousy is another of the natural inclinations, both of which have the same root.5
Marriage of More Than One Wife of The Prophet
Some people wrongly have assumed that marrying more than one is part of the sunnah and should be followed no matter what. To attribute such claims we have to ask the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself what he (peace be upon him) has to say concerning such issue. Nevertheless before proceeding to that point, Imam Ibn al-Athir al_Jazaree (554-606 H) has said that the marriage of more than one wife of the prophet was to solve social problems of that time, when the social institutions were not stable enough to allow for other possibilities. This is in conformance with what God says:
And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you - [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course. [Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa’ (4):3]
It is important to read the two last expressions of this verse, “then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.” It is very crucial to note that if the natural inclination were of more than one wife, why would God warn against deviating from the right course, or making injustice. Said ibn Jubayr, Qatadah, and other successors of the Companions, imply the following meaning to the verse, “Just as you are, rightly, fearful of offending against the interests of orphans, you must apply the same careful con¬sideration to the interests and rights of the women whom you intend to marry." 6
It will become clear to the reader than the above allowance of marrying more than one is a solution to social circumstances and not a unrestricted right given to the man over woman. If misused, then it will lead to injustice as implied in the verse above. 7
Let’s suppose on a first instance that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging the marriage to more than one wife by practicing it himself. Then what a better example could have he (peace be upon him) found than to implement this lifestyle to his daughter Fatima. She should be an example for all the women of Islam. And the Prophet (peace be upon him) does the following when Fatima encountered such an occasion:
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me." 8
What he (peace be upon him) does is totally the opposite what one would expect from a man who is supposed to encourage something that he himself practices. The Prophet (peace be upon him) understood it very well the inclination towards one mate and the hurtful feeling that would cause sharing the beloved companion with another. Therefore Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) gives two choices to Ali, either to remain married only to Fatima, or divorce her and marry the other woman. Ali chooses the first one.
It is important to notice that this nullifies the assumption that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging in any shape or form the practice of marrying more than one wife. Therefore reasons such as it is the unrestricted right of man or man is inclined towards having more than one wife is very far from the truth. It would imply that the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him), had no knowledge of that. On the other hand a very plausible explanation is that only social hardships allow for such circumstances in the best interest of the women as made clear by Imam Ibn al-Athir al-Jazaree and even that with certain restrictions that will be mentioned as we continue establishing the truth with proofs.
The Contract of Marriage
In Islam marriage is a civil contract between the two parties, the husband and the wife. In this contract both parties must agree to the conditions being put in it. The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said: "From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e. the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled." 9
One of the conditions that can be put into the marriage contract is that the future wife requires from her future husband that he will not marry another woman while she is married to him. This condition is valid and does not contradict the verses of the Qur’an where God allows the man to marry more than one.10 The Qur’an lays out the maximum number of women that a man can be married at one time under the exception of fulfilling justice. Whether the man wants to get married or not, or get married to one or more, that is only up to the individual. Therefore a condition of marrying only one is within the bounds of what the Qur’an is allowing. Reading the Qur’an, the encouragement is towards marrying only one due to it being more just.
Moreover the validity of such condition has been agreed by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, Sa’d bin Abee Wakas, Mu’aweeyah,‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, Shurayh al-Qaadi, al-Oozaa’I, Ishaaq, ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-Aziz and Jabeer bin Zayd.11,12
Therefore if such condition is valid, it cannot be claimed that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging the practice of marrying more than one wife, but at the same time allowing conditions from the part of a woman restricting her husband to not marry another while she is married to him. The jealousy is not a characteristic pertinent only to the male figure, but also to the female since we explained earlier that the natural inclinations of both are towards having one mate, not shared with others. This condition accedes with the hadith of Fatima being hurt if Ali married another woman and the Prophet (peace be upon him) giving Ali the option of divorcing his daughter in order to marry another.
Divorce on Part of the Wife
God says:
A divorce may be [revoked] twice, whereupon the marriage must either be resumed in fairness or dissolved in a goodly manner. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything of what you have ever given to your wives unless both [partners] have cause to fear that they may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God: hence, if you have cause to fear that the two may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God, there shall be no sin upon either of them for what the wife may give up [to her husband] in order to free herself. These are the bounds set by God; do not, then, transgress them: for they who transgress the bounds set by God-it is they, they who are evildoers! [Qur’an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2):229]
All authorities concur that this verse gives an unconditional right to the woman to divorce her husband. This is reinforced by the following hadith:
Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The wife of Thabit bin Qais came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for defects in his character or his religion, but I, being a Muslim, dislike to behave in un−Islamic manner (if I remain with him)." On that Allah's Apostle said (to her), "Will you give back the garden which your husband has given you (as Mahr)?" She said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said to Thabit, "O Thabit! Accept your garden, and divorce her once." 13
In accordance with this tradition, when the wife divorces the husband without him committing an offence against his marital obligations, the wife has to return the dower she received for marriage in order to dissolve the marriage as related in the verse above mentioned. This kind of divorce strengthens the point that marrying more than one wife is to solve social problems and at the same time the wife has the unrestricted right to divorce the husband at any time she sees it fit. This position leaves no room for oppression or hardship on the wife emotionally and gives restrains to the husband in order to not allow for abuses or fear the consequences of his actions.
The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said:
“Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission” 4
in Polygamy#Islam it's written: 'Even though Muhammed was himself polygamous, he expressed disapproval of it for his own daughter, Fatima, and recognised that it would emotionally upset her. According to Bukhari (who mentions the hadith twice, Book 7, Number 115 and 152),
this is a sunni viewpoint. by shi'ite(shia) viewpoint, this is certainly wrong. shi'ites believe that Imam Ali ibn Abitalib didn't want to marry anyone when Fatima(daughter of Muhammad) was alive. shi'ites believe that Bukhari is corrupted.
The "Sahih Bukhari" book(which Muhammed's Idea about his daughter's polygamy is written) is a Hadith book of Sunni muslims, which Shia's don't believe it's correctness. Shia's believe that Muhammed said "Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see and what hurts her." in a different situation. Seraj 14:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
in Polygamy#Islam it's written: "According to traditional Islamic law, a man may take up to four wives (however such limit is not found in the Qur'an, the Qur'an only stated 'place two and three and four', such statement was also used to describe the number of wings that angels have, and the wings of angels aren't limited to four wings) it's also written: "there's no verse in the Qur'an that allow or not allow a woman to have more than one husband at a time."
Muslims believe that Quran and Hadith are both the sources of Islamic Law.hadith has a special status citing sura Al-A'raf 157:
This and other Qur'anic verses require Muslims to follow authentic hadith. even the rakaat's of Salah(whith is a pillar of the Five Pillars of Islam in Sunni Islam, and one of the ten Branches of Religion in Shi'a Islam) is not mentioned in Quran. So saying:
and
will lead into readers' error. They will think that Quranic Islam allows more than 4 wives; but this is not true.
http://www.geocities.com/masad02/004
Surah Nisa(4): 3
And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you*- [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess.** This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.
As regards the permission to marry more than one wife (up to the maximum of four), it is so restricted by the condition, "if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [marry only] one", as to make such plural marriages possible only in quite exceptional cases and under exceptional circumstances (see also the first clause of 24: 32 and the corresponding note). Still, one might ask why the same latitude has not been given to women as well; but the answer is simple. Notwithstanding the spiritual factor of love which influences the relations between man and woman, the determinant biological reason for the sexual urge is, in both sexes, procreation: and whereas a woman can, at one time, conceive a child from one man only and has to carry it for nine months before she can conceive another, a man can beget a child every time he cohabits with a woman. Thus, while nature would have been merely wasteful if it had produced a polygamous instinct in woman, man's polygamous inclination is biologically justified. It is, of course, obvious that the biological factor is only one - and by no means always the most important - of the aspects of marital love: none the less, it is a basic factor and, therefore, decisive in the institution of marriage as such. With the wisdom that always takes human nature fully into account, Islamic Law undertakes no more than the safeguarding of the socio-biological function of marriage (which includes also care of the progeny), allowing a man to have more than one wife ald not allowing a woman to have more than one husband at one time; while the spiritual problem of marriage, being imponderable and therefore outside the scope of law, is left to the discretion of the partners. In any event - since marriage in Islam is a purely civil contract - recourse to divorce is always open to either of the two partners. (Regarding the dissolution of a marriage at the wife's instance, see note on surah 2, verse 229.)
THE TWENTY-FOURTH SURAH
AN-NUR (THE LIGHT)
MARRIAGE
(32) AND [you ought to] marry the single from among you [I.e., from among the free members of the community, as is evident from the subsequent juxtaposition with slaves. (As most of the classical commentators point out, this is not an injunction but a recommendation to the community as a whole: hence my interpolation of the words, “you ought to”.) The term ayyim - of which ayama is the plural - signifies a person of either sex who has no spouse, irrespective of whether he or she has never been married or is divorced or widowed. Thus, the above verse expresses the idea - reiterated in many authentic sayings of the Prophet - that, from both the ethical and the social points of view, the married state is infinitely preferable to celibacy.] as well as such of your male and female slaves as are fit [for marriage]. [The term as-salihin connotes here both moral and physical fitness for marriage: i.e., the attainment of bodily and mental maturity as well as mutual affection between the man and the woman concerned. As in 4: 25, the above verse rules out all forms of concubinage and postulates marriage as the only basis of lawful sexual relations between a man and his female slave.] If they [whom you intend to marry] are poor, [let this not deter you;] God will grant them sufficiency out of His bounty - for God is infinite [in His mercy], all-knowing. (33) And as for those who are unable to marry, [I.e., because of poverty or because they cannot find a suitable mate, or for any other personal reason.] let them live in continence until God grants them sufficiency out of His bounty,
DEED OF FREEDOM
(33) And if any of those whom you rightfully possess [Lit., “whom your right hands possess”, i.e., male or female slaves.] desire [to obtain] a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you are aware of any good in them: [The noun kitab is, in this context, an equivalent of kitabah or mukatabah (lit., “mutual agreement in writing”), a juridical term signifying a “deed of freedom” or “of manumission” executed on the basis of an agreement between a slave and his or her owner, to the effect that the slave undertakes to purchase his or her freedom for an equitable sum of money payable in installments before or after the manumission, or, alternatively, by rendering a clearly specified service or services to his or her owner. With this end in view, the slave is legally entitled to engage in any legitimate, gainful work or to obtain the necessary sum of money by any other lawful means (e.g., through a loan or a gift from a third person). In view of the imperative form of the verb katibuhum (“write it out for them”), the deed of manumission cannot be refused by the owner, the only pre-condition being an evidence - to be established, if necessary, by an unbiased arbiter or arbiters - of the slave’s good character and ability to fulfill his or her contractual obligations. The stipulation that such a deed of manumission may not he refused, and the establishment of precise juridical directives to this end, clearly indicates that Islamic Law has from its very beginning aimed at an abolition of slavery as a social institution, and that its prohibition in modern times constitutes no more than a final implementation of that aim. (See also next note, as well as note on 2: 177.) and give them [their share of the wealth of God which He has given you. [According to all the authorities, this relates (a) to a moral obligation on the part of the owner to promote the slave’s efforts to obtain the necessary revenues by helping him or her to achieve an independent economic status and/or by remitting part of the agreed-upon compensation, and (b) to the obligation of the state treasury (bayt al-mal) to finance the freeing of slaves in accordance with the Quranic principle - enunciated in 9: 60 - that the revenues obtained through the obligatory tax called zakah are to be utilized, among other purposes, “for the freeing of human beings from bondage” (fi r-riqab, an expression explained in note on 2: 177). Hence, Zamakhshari holds that the above clause is addressed not merely to persons owning slaves but to the community as a whole - The expression “the wealth of God” contains an allusion to the principle that “God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions, promising them paradise in return” (9: 111) - implying that all of man’s possessions are vested in God, and that man is entitled to no more than their usufruct.]
PROHIBITION OF CONCUBINAGE
(33) And do not, in order to gain [Lit., “so that you might seek out” or “endeavour to attain to”.] some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; [Lit., “if they desire protection against unchastity (tahassun)”, i.e., through marriage (cf. the expression muhsanat as used in 4: 24). Most of the classical commentators are of the opinion that the term fatayat (“maidens”) denotes here “slave-girls”: an assumption which is fully warranted by the context hence, the above verse reiterates the prohibition of concubinage by explicitly describing it as “whoredom” (bigha).] and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled [to submit in their helplessness], God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! (34) AND, INDEED, from on high have We bestowed upon you messages clearly showing the truth, and [many] a lesson from [the stories of] those who have passed away before you, and [many] an admonition to the God-conscious.
Where did you find this:
This statement isn't true. Is there any resources for it? Seraj 15:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I just reverted a series of changes by 4.246.30.203, all of which sought to whitewash Mormon history. The original text was supported by a number of sources, including both the Krakaur and Brodie books, so it's not a lack of citation. It was altered because it was accurate but not flattering to Mormons. My guess is that these changes were by a Mormon who is embarassed by their religion's past. In short, the changes were contrary to verifiable sources and were POV. I consider the change to be vandalism.
While I'm here, I should explain a change I'm about to make. Currently, the Mormon section is separated from the Christian section by Islam. Since Mormonism is a form of Christianity, albeit a distinct one that is not in the mainstream, it should be grouped under, or at least near, Christianity. Alienus 08:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to write this, but I deleted a part that says "However Mormon doctrine also states that polygamy will be resumed in the "next life" so the manifesto is really only meant to be a temporary end to polygamy." It misleading to say that it is only to be a "temporary end" to polygamy. While it is honest to say that mormon doctrine (and practice) allows for polygamy in the afterlife (and I have left this in), it is just ridiculous to say that this means mormons only view the manifesto as a "temporary end to polygamy." They don't. And this passage doesn't convey the truth as well as the redundant passage I left in. Amulekii 20:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
"Both polygamy and polyandry were practiced in ancient times among certain sections of the Hindu society. " Besides my knowledge, my immediate source of this statement was this very section. The section already says that:
Could someone add Paganism, Neo-Paganism and Buddhism to the page, please? This would make it more complete.
This section and the one following, recently added, strikes me as completely OR, with a big dose of POV. Could someone else take a look and see if I'm missing something? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
BTW, I cannot quote every dissertation or essays or media documentaries made on the topic in Greater China Region. Please follow the links and dig more if needed. Xaaan5 16:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Xaaan5 16:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Xaan, regarding your comment about Wikipedia needing to book-length, that is exactly the opposite of what I was saying viz. that the book-length stuff has to be conducted outside of Wikipedia. You just need one reference for each claim you're making. Those links of yours are search results, not scholarly sources. mg e kelly 16:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Among the search results, there are links to academic researches! Anyway, what make it so difficult for you guys to accept that what is happening in the greater China region regarding polygamy/polygyny? The phenomenon is here. IF i have all the energy to do the proper dissertation citation, I shall be a PHD myself researching or educating students instead of having to answer the strange requests or to fight the opposition HERE. Why make sharing knowledge a guilty crime??! Xaaan5 16:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I’ve tried to remove redundant text and to tighten the wording of the section. The following is mostly for Xaaan5, but anyone else with the necessary knowledge (or, at least, mastery of the languages involved and ability to use Google) is also very strongly invited to help:
ref
element, or some other appropriate method. In particular, these citations must be visible to the reader.Is that acceptable? — xyzzy n 19:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
So NoW I feel the strong presence of the academics and PHDs making this WIKIPEDIA. IF u want serious academic thing, why don't u just limit your membership to academics only? Removing all the facts & common knowledge and asking for detailed citation is a very dogmatic approach. It is so sad that people who cannot read Chinese and then just ignore and discredit what are there. AND, when I sow the seed, sooner or later some other people can add citation. Why people like XYZZY just can not wait to delete my writing? I feel so SICK. 220.246.154.17 03:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I dislike being constantly targetted. (1) Why put all the burden of proof on me alone when Wikipedia can be a collaboration? Other people can expand or add citations. Why people are so much in a hurry to delete the knowledge of what other people are trying to share?? (2) I have added more citations. Stop being so dogmatic to ask for citation of every statement. Eg. Law is law and do I need to cite the law, too? Do all wikipedia user have to cite for everything they wrote? (3) What I wrote was a distillation of what I read in print, on screen, from news, from common knowledge, traditional wisdom, from www and TV documentary. How do you supposed I cite for every statement?!?!?!?!?! (4) Why won't hyperlinks to www resources be accepted as a proof of the existence of the phenomenon or things I stated?!?! As what I wrote have been repeatedly removed, I feel almost like being gang-raped. Xaaan5 05:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I welcome gramatic correction if needed but not removing blocks. If you are so insisting with the proper citation for every statement, just do your PHD back in the universities. OR get WIKIPEDIA to limit membership to Masters, Doctors, Professors & Professionals!!!! Stop pestering. I feel very very sick. Xaaan5 05:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Some quick definitions: dogma-a doctrine or belief that is held to be true without proof; proof-the establishment of a belief's truth through evidence; common knowledge-something many people believe to be true, not necessarily based on proof; traditonal wisdom-see common knowledge, add ten years. -Some newb with a dictionary
I take it no-one's really started cleaning up the material added by Xaaan5? A blanket issue concerning his edits which concerns me is that most of it seems to be about marital infidelity rather than polygamy per se. Some of it seems to me to be clearly irrelevant. For example, it stated that Mao had an extramarital lover, and seemed to imply that this was in contravention of anti-poylgamy laws. Unless there is a different concept of polygamy in China, this seems to be nonsense. However, if Taiwanese businessmen have second families in China, well that looks a lot more like polygamy. Still, there is a clear distinction between one's wife and one's mistress in law. What does anyone think? mg e kelly 15:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Having though about this for about 5 seconds, I think the stuff about having multiple sexual relationships should probably be under polyamory. mg e kelly 15:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Mgekelly. Multiple sexual relationships / secret affair = polygamy outside the law. The relationship of a man and a woman meet and stay overnight together from time to time, having sex, probably is a form of marraige without documentary or registration.
Because of the monogamy law, polygamy cannot exsist in name... and thus became secret affair. The nature of the relationship of most secret affair is a type of polygamy or polygyny.
Don't be so dogmatic! If you put everything in strict sense and criteria, people looking for polygamy cannot find much information as long as polygamy is illegal in most of the countries.
As polygamy is the general term to cover many types of those relationships/marriage, it is appropriate to include various related facts and happenings under it. 220.246.134.138 14:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
This is not dogmatism on my part. The English word 'polygamy' manifestly only covers actual marriages. This is indisputable. In European culture, where polygamy has been banned for thousands of years, people have always had mistresses and other extra-marital relationships. There is certainly an interesting article to be written on that, but it is not this one. A note suggesting that some kind of 'calndestine polygamy' still exists in China is fine - but if there are no clandestine marriage ceremonies, I would argue this isn't clandestine polygamy at all, but just what it is - people having kept women. mg e kelly 16:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Last I checked, a Mormon man can be sealed to multiple women in a number of cases (such as when his first wife dies and he remarries). This would mean that he would be married to both in the afterlife, which is post-mortem polygamy as part of celestial marriage. Am I mistaken? Al 21:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Although polygamy is not recognized as "marriage", is the polygamous lifestyle legal or illegal in California? Just Curious. Zachorious 10:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
How could it not be? What would the law prohibit? Co-habitation or sexual relations? The Supreme Court has explicitly struck down laws that seek to prevent certain living arrangements; and I doubt the gov't has any inclination or authority to ban sex... W.Ross 13:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, but it's not clear why these tags were added? I can't find any reason given for them being added, and this article has sources. Are we able to move the unreferenced tag to appropriate sub-sections, and/or use {{ Fact}} tags? Mdwh 02:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks the links section seems weird? Three things quickly jump out before my eyes.
Wouldn't it be better to just list only complete web-sites than one-page articles too? It's mostly that now, but there are a few links that are just articles. I won't make any changes on that yet. Any ideas?
A site called Hope for the Child Brides is listed in the "Neutral" section. With a name like that, the implication of its name shows it is not a neutral site. Does anyone else agree?
In the "Christian Polygamy" links section, the first listing is only a yahoo list with only about 100 members. Yahoolists are a dime a dozen. Does that really qualify to be listed. If so, does it qualify to be listed first?
I am choosing to make the first edit on this last one.
To find out more about this, I went through the history at Wikipedia. The change looks like it was made by the owner the yahoo list, but I do not know that directly. Originally, that section looked like this. In the next edit, the user added the yahoo group link for the first time. They placed it at the top of the section. They called their yahoo list a group. They moved the movement's larger web-sites down lower. Then they played with the truthbearer organization link. They removed the reference identifying it as an organization. Then they say that organization site offers its services for a fee. That aditional comment seems POV to me in contrast to their free yahoo list. Why was it necessary for that editor to say that while adding the yagoo list link at the top? That is what I find quesitonable. When I go to the [www.truthbearer.org] site, I see that their organization has been on NBC, Newsweek, the Washington Times, etc etc etc. Obviously, truthbearer is a real organization. It is well-known in the media. I also see from their site map that their organizaation's website is huge. There are lots of free information. It even has an entire book online. The site only calls for money are for paying members. That happens with any organization. That is not unusual. Looking at this, I think it break NPOV to imply that www.truthbearer.org is just a site charging money. Because it was changed by the person adding the free yahoo list, it looks to me like they were breaking NPOV there. In sum, the change looks like a tiny yahoo list owner added their link while trying to undercut the professional well-known organization.
So, in trying to be bold, I am going to put the links in the Christian Polygamy section back the way they were. I will move the free yahoo list down in that section. I don't think a free yahoo list should even be listed. Does anyone else think a tiny yahoo list should even qualify to be listed?
Mildy Amused 19:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
To unsigned anonymous editor, I am glad we agree about the Yahoo list. I don't see what you mean about sites being under the direction of truthbearer.org. In the current version of the article, the first site educates Wikipedia readers about the Christian Polygamy movement itself. The second site listed is the leading organization that made the movement possible. From what I see, it is an organization of many families with a number of media reports about them. Everywhere you look about Christian Polygamy, that organization is all over the media. Nothing else compares to it. So any other websites referencing the organization just makes sense to me. If that's what you mean. I will look closer when I have time though. The third site lists out all arguments that people have about polygamy and the Bible. I think those first three sites provide unique branches of information. They serve Wikipedia readers looking for each specifc information in their research. The fourth site is a man's site. I think his site from England, although that doesn't mean anything. I think the fifth site should be removed because all its says is that it's coming soon. The sixth site is the Yahoo list which are always a dime a dozen. We already agree about that one. So, I do not think anything should be done to the first four sites in the Christian Polygamy links. I do think that the last two should be removed, though.
Mildy Amused 17:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It sounds to me like this is missing another key possible form (don't know whether it has ever occured) that is when there are more then one man and more then one woman but the women are only primarily or solely responsible for their own children (and not the children of other women). In modern days, it would also be much more easily possible for the men to be primarily or solely responsible for their own children (obvious, without DNA testing this would be more difficult although it would depend on the arrangement) Nil Einne 06:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a bit confusing. As far as I can tell, polymatchmaker welcomes all poly-ies so to speak, whether polygynysts, polyandrists, polyarmourists or whatever so it isn't really a polyamory website. Also, the talk of bisexual issues seems confusing. While I appreciate that traditional polygyny-based cultures do not support or allow sexual contact between wives, from my understanding of polygyny the term it self simply describes a situation where there is one husband and multiple wives. Therefore, a living situation where the wives have sexual contact with each other would still be polygynist.
Perhaps the issue is not 'bisexuality' but that these sites welcome those interested in group marriages and polyandrous marriages and therefore these people would be present as well. However I would assume want each person wants would be clearly labelled and in any case are issues for all participants. A person interested in groups marriages we can presume would NOT be interested in someone interested in polyandrous or polygynys marriages. Similarly with someone interested in polyandrous relationships.
Nil Einne 06:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a brief statement in the article that polygamists may find it harder to obtain immigrant status, but what is the legal status of polygamists from countries where it is legal who visit countries such as the U.S.? Does the law recognize all, one, or none of them as wives for purposes of directing medical care, inheritance, suing for divorce, applying for citizenship, and so on? Are they regarded as violating a law when they are all in the U.S.? Mike Serfas 02:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Are all either broken, or to xtian sites, not jewish ones. Why was this reverted when I removed them? FiveRings 21:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted most of the text in this section as it is a) completely false and b) largely made up of long quotes from the Quran which b.1) are not in an encyclopedic style and b.2) have been selectively taken from that source so to further the author's point of view.
Basically the section was so misleading and point of view biased that in its current state it detracts from a factual article. I have flagged it with the "expert needed" tag so that someone who knows the laws and statistics in specific countries and who has more available time than I, can add precise - and hopefully this time - factual information. Canderra 02:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh btw someone needs to edit the quote "it often occurs rarely" it sounds bad lol
I was the one who expanded the article which was deleted for no good reason. I have a few points that I take issue with:
Palestine48 14:02, 15 October 2006
You have to mention the Prophets multiple wives. I mean, seriously. This is an article about the same subject. It is borth pertitent and relevant.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.39.63.190 ( talk • contribs)
The source is a general discussion of the one child policy and isn't related to the statement at all.
Unlike polygyny, polyandry is considered taboo. However, the One-Child Policy has been increasing the male to female ratio, which may force a revisiting of this attitude. [3]
Roadrunner 10:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
It excludes South Africa, Many christians zulu have more than one wife.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 14:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I intend to be bold and edit the lead to reflect that polygamy is not one form of marriage, but several. The edit will replace "a" with "any". I am aware that changing the second sentence of a lead paragraph on a controversial topic can cause a stir. Please believe my intention is to improve the article, not to offensively push any particular POV. If my edit offends someone, please explain why! Sdsds 05:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a rather unorthodox interpretation of the Great Learning
In
Confucianism, the ability of a man to manage a family, which usually meant more than one wife and set of children, was emphasised as part of the steps of learning for personal growth in
Daxue (
Great Learning)
[4].
Quoting Professor Xu who explained the Confucianism (大學之道)Quoting 徐醒民教授《儒學簡說》: 格物、致知、誠意、正心、修身、齊家、治國、平天下 which
Zhu Xi had summarized from the book of
Great Learning(Daxue).
The 8 learning steps & use
Text quote in Chinese with pronunciation
Original text Daxue I. 4 & 5
Also, looking through the citations, they all seem to be summaries of the Great Learning, and they don't mention polygamy at all.
Roadrunner 03:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The recent edit putting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints under a new "Pseudo-Christian Groups" section is, I believe, a breach of WP:NPOV. Even-handed discussion of whether Mormons are Christians would more properly belong in the article on Mormonism and Christianity. Richwales 05:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is there a link to the Mariavite article? Neither that article nor this asserts that the Mariavites have ever practiced polygamy. I did find one site that makes that asssertion, [5]. If it's generally accepted as true, then fine; this page and the Mariavite page should say so. If it's disputed, then, again, the disputed allegation should be mentioned. If it's generally accepted as false, then there shouldn't be a link.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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I added a couple sentences to the end of the paragraph that mentioned David Friedman to explain the economic argument in favor of polygamy better. I don't think what I added was perfect, but I do think that the economic argument is important to include in any complete article about polygamy.
When people arrive at this TALK page, they need to know firsthand that there is a dispute going on. Buring it deeper in the TALK page amounts to an aggressive act of trying to hide it from new arrivals here. Nereocystis knows that I am in conversation with AMAs and seeking to resolve the issue. To continue to advance the "outline" idea on this TALK page here, while knowing that we are still in the process of finding resolution (and that I am conversing with AMAs) is another extremely aggressive act by Nereocystis. No action should be occurring until we can really get the problems solved.
I had posted this section at the top of this TALK page, but Nereocystis sought to hide it. Here is what Nereocystis said when they tried to bury this from the top of the page.
There is a lot of dispute on the content of polygamy. Interested parties should look at the archives and at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Researcher99.
Please emphasize the text of the polygamy article on this page. Nereocystis 20:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed the NPOV which Researcher99 put on the talk page, since NPOV doesn't belong on a Talk page. Talk pages usually include a lot of POV in the process of making the article NPOV.
I also removed the dubious tags from the polygamy rewrite. If someone doesn't like it, discuss it. Provide citations. It is a work in progress, of course there are changes to be made. Nereocystis 20:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As a matter of valid information, this has been restored to the top, as the dispute continues to go forward to a hopeful resolution. Researcher 17:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
This entire TALK page is not valid, being the result of an unapproved takeover. We were in the middle of a previous dispute resolution and this TALK page wrongly got changed and directed without the approval of the two parties involved, Nereocystis and myself. The last valid version of this TALK page, before that hostile takeover, was on 14:24, 18 August 20.
When I tried to provide further evidence of all the attacks on this invalid TALK page here, Dunkelza immediately hid the evidence by removing it.
The fact that the hostile parties here want this illegitimate version of the TALK page to continue in its current invalid form, and going so far as to purposely prevent and hide the evidence of the abuse and dispute, is further proof of the abuse I am receiving and te illegitimacy of the current TALK page. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As all know, I am in the process of selecting an AMA. All parties should cease their agendas here and await what happens with that. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
The discussion below occurred after an aggressive takeover that was not approved by all parties in the previous dispute. The last valid version of this TALK page, before the hostile takeover, was on 14:24, 18 August 20. All participation on thse subheaded subtopics should cease untilthe larger issues of dispute are resolved. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As readers may see from the following, Nereocystis admits to the deceptive act of trying to bury the important notice for new arrivals, in order to make it appear as though anything on this current TALK page about the polygamy article has a valid basis, while we are in the minddle of an ongoing dispute resolution issue. Referring to ths abve section after they had buried it, Nereocystis admitted,
[This was posted by Researcher99 at the top of the page, and refers to a discussion of the outline of the polygamy article. Nereocystis 20:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)]
Once again, they have sought to hide the evidence so that they may give the false appearance of supposed legitimacy of this non-accepted version of the TALK pages that interrupted the resolution process. The only way to effectively and instantly alert new arrivalst this TALK page is by use of the NPOV tag. While it may be more usable for articles, it is still an essential tool for this current situation. To aggresively hide it is only to seek to prevent new Wikipedia users arriving here from being alerted as much as they really need to be. Researcher 17:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Researcher99 and Nereocystis have agreed to allow me (as an unoffical mediator) to guide them through a process that will hopefully end the dispute and provide an accurate and NPOV article on polygamy. See the archives for a history of the dispute. Uriah923 15:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
While I do not want you to feel abused, the past really has nothing to do with putting together a quality NPOV article. As I mentioned, I think it best to start with outlines. Quality content can be added to these and a preliminary article posted without a NPOV tag. I anticipate that will happen quickly after I receive your outlines. Uriah923 18:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Addressing how you have been harmed will not bring us any closer to a quality, non-disputed, NPOV article. That is my only goal. One way to do that would be to dig through the volumes of bickering between you two in an attempt to locate a status quo. However, due to the insane amount of edits and discussing, that way is painful and unnecessarily complicated. A much more effective way is to start CLEAN (which is fair to all involved). If we can avoid worrying about the past, this will progress much more quickly to what we all want (quality, non-disputed, NPOV article). Uriah923 19:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
If by 'run over' you mean I have disregarded your arguments, that is true. I disregarded arguments from all parties because they were getting everyone nowhere. Starting from a blank canvas will allow all to see that ONLY valid, source-backed, NPOV material has been added. It will allow all, both self-avowed experts and those who are only interested, to contribute under the same criteria - that they provide NPOV, valid and note-worthy sources for the material contributed. There is absolutely no reason to address any alleged past abuse as it would only serve to soothe your wounds - not to produce a quality article.
If you refuse to participate, then there is no chance of any resolution. Uriah923 21:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Dunkelza. It was my impression that Researcher99 had until August 26 to finish his outline, which was yesterday. He has been given enough time to do this and our progress on this article should not be delayed any longer. I suggest that we focus our energy on fine-tuning Nereocystis' outline and begin work on rewriting the article. If Researcher99 doesn't want to give any valuable input and insists on rehashing old, perceived "abuses," then we should proceed without him. Kewp 12:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
The first thing I want from both Researcher99 and Nereocystis is a top-level outline of the ideal contents of the article. This should be brief and contain no text - only headings and maybe some sub-headings. As Researcher99 is going to be out of town, we will allow approximately a week for both of you to provide the outline. Uriah923 15:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
You are correct. After we have a solid, agreed upon foundation of what topics need to be covered and in what order we can move on to slowly add content that is NPOV and backed by valid references. Uriah923 18:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
This is not about anyone 'getting away with' anything or about anyone being 'harmed.' The only goal here is to improve the article. As the two of you have been unable to do this, I have offered to provide structure to facilitate it. Arguing over past hurts will only delay any progress. Uriah923 19:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I have listened to and addressed each of your concerns. However, I am not going to give you preferential treatment. All parties will start on an equal footing and, as I mentioned in the above thread, will be given the same requirements for submitting content. If you are the expert you claim to be, and if Nereocystis is as uknowledgeable as you say he is, then this will work in your favor as you will be able to provide more valid, source-backed, NPOV material. Uriah923 21:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
See Polygamy/Rewrite for the latest version.
Here's my first draft of the outline.
Should Polygamy and religion be under polygamy worldwide, as it is at present. I initially moved it there. I'm not sure now.
I suggest merging "How polygamists find more spouses" into "Polygamy and religion". Each type of polygamy could be described.
I imagine "Current status of civil polygamous marriage" as being similar to Same-sex marriage#Current status of same-sex civil marriage. Nereocystis 20:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
That sounds good. Simple means less room for argument before we need it. One copy is also a good idea. Nereocystis 21:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
You have a "Current Proponents and Opponents" section. Should we have a "Historical Proponents and Opponents" section as well, or maybe just merge them? I would also like to see a historical treatment in the "Polygamy Worldwide" section as well.
Dunkelza 13:43, 21 August 2005 (EDT)
Originally, I had a number of subcategories. In the interest of an easy first step, Uriah923 removed the subcategories. Agreeing on the major categories may be difficult enough. Here is an earlier version. I removed "current" from "proponents and opponents". The category can be ordered historically, if need be.
"Forms of polygamy" currently just lists polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage. "Forms of polygamy" is a bad title here, though introducing the idea of polygyny, polyandry, group marriage, and possible gender neutral groups is important, since polygamy is often used as strictly polygyny. I'm troubled by having religion and worldwide as separate categories. I don't know what goes where. Perhaps these should be combined. Religion is often important to polygamy, but so is the country. Please make suggestions. I'll save under-age polygamy until the topics are better fleshed out. I don't know which articles it belongs in yet. Let's handle the outlines first, later will come the controversies. Nereocystis 04:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Let's try seperating religion from geography, and see what happens. There is a lot of cross-over. I would like one section to be very short, describing the 3 basic forms of heterosexual polygamy. A later section should split polygamy into sub-subcategories. I don't like the title "Related terms", but it is important to explain that polygamy is not identical to polyamory. Perhaps the definition of marriage and family needs to be tightened while we're at it, using anthropological definitions, and allowing modern variations on the theme. That may explain the differences between polyamory and polygamy more clearly. Nereocystis 17:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
That's a really good question. We could make polygamy an overview article with links to polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage covering most of the details. None of these issues covers the issue of marriage to more than one person, regardless of sex, such as suggested by Emens, Elizabeth F. (2004). "Monogamy's Law: Compulsory Monogamy and Polyamorous Existence". New York University Review of Law & Social Change. 29 (2): 277. I suppose that gets covered in polygamy, unless group marriage is willing to take it.
I see the following articles as strongly related:
Can we cover all of the articles, marriage briefly, defining it with a standard anthropology definition; then hit monogamy; cover the types of polygamy under polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage, then fill in the details at polygamy again? Under polygamy we would have a synopsis of topics covered elsewhere, and more details in certain areas.
I split the outline above into the areas where I think the most details belongs. Many of the choices are arbitrary. The group marriage discussion started about the time Researcher99 and I tried resolving our differences. It was painful, as usual.
We can back out the outline changes if this is too confusing for now. Nereocystis 18:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
A template is an interesting idea. I don't know exactly what it would look like, but someone should try it.
Could we start with a definition of marriage. Murdock 1949 says:
He later describes polygamous relationships of course. I can't quickly find a definition in his "Ethnographic Atlas", which is quite short. His definition of marriage doesn't mention gender, though his types of polygamy do mention gender quite specifically. A newer definition of marriage from anthropology would be good. For now, I would limit my changes to marriage to that definition.
I prefer the indentation standard in Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Layout, especially in a long series of back of forth. It prevents later conversations taking place in the far right. However, there is room for confusion with this indentation style as well. Nereocystis 16:41, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
This looks good so far. I agree with modern. I apologize for using an older definition, though so many of WP's references, and others as well led to this source. I do think that finding a definition of marriage helps to explain polygamy, for the anthropology and sociology sections. One or two sentences should be enough. Perhaps it doesn't need to be moved to the marriage article yet, but we need it for our purposes. Since any anthropological or sociological definition of polygamy has to refer to marriage, this won't cost us much. Nereocystis 17:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I filled in some information at the beginning of Dunkelza's outline. I hope this is the right direction. Nereocystis 03:00, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I suggest creating a page called Polygamy/Rewrite. It allows the page to appear as it will be. And we can get the number of "=" correct, and shows what the page will really look like.
I put an old anthropology definition in for polygamy. We do need to modernize, but this is all I have so far.
Where do we go from here? How long should we take? Do we move sections over as they are somewhat filled in? Nereocystis 17:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I created a page called Polygamy/Rewrite, which contains the latest version of the polygamy rewrite, before Researcher's changes. If he wants that participate, that's fine. Please add citations for additions. Nereocystis 20:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Nereocystis, it's rather useful to leave the NPOV tags while the dispute is ongoing. This is for making more comprehensive the current situation to any newcoming editor. -- Neigel von Teighen 22:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
My proposal can be summarized as "to do everthing so this thing doesn't go into an Arbitration". Any comments? I'll tell Researcher about this. -- Neigel von Teighen 19:03, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how this mediation thing works. As it is, it is impossible for anybody else to contribute to the Polygamy article without having to sift through paragraphs and pages of Researcher99's accusations and efforts to buy time. Is it the case that nothing further can be contributed to the article until this dispute, which has been going on for months, is resolved? This talk page is a mess, mostly because of Researcher99's increasingly frantic badgering of other contributers who came to the page genuinely interested in making this page better--their contributions are labeled as POV "anti-polygamy propaganda" [2], which is nothing but unsupported abuse. Is the RfC going forward? (I think it should, as Researcher99 has shown himself to be unable to work with and respect other editors) If there is a mediation, where will it take place? on the Talk:Polygamy page? Who will be included? New people who want to help with the page are effectively being scared away by the mammoth size of the talk page (mostly due to Researcher99's comments). There has to be something done about this, soon. Kewp 08:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Due to the current attemps to resolve this hotly disputed article, I feel I should make this comment. I don't want to step on toes but I think it needs to be said. Ignoring for a minute that most people probably regard the Christianity bit at the end as extremely POV and too poorly written to merit inclusing in Wikipedia, most of these same arguments can be made for Islamic polygyny. For example, in a number of Islamic countries the husband is required to get the written permission of the current wife/ves before taking another one and in theory at least is not allowed to coerce the any of the wife/ves into accepting. Similarly as has been mentioned in the article, in many cases the rights of each wife is protected and the husband is supposed to be fair to each wife (although the interpretation of this varies). While in pratice, the rights of women in a number of Islamic countries may be limited, this is not always the case and in this is really a seperate issue. In fact, I'm sure most of the arguments can not only be made for Islamic polygyny but polygamy in many other religious and non-religious instances as well. Therefore, I fail to see how even if we decide to include the bit on Christian polygamy at the end it can be limited to Christianity... 60.234.141.76 21:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm conflicted about adding this section again. Some of us are in the middle of a rewrite. One of Researcher99's has pointed out that there is no longer a description of disputes in this section. I have added one of the worst of the incidents, which was referred to by #Christianity & Islam. Perhaps more will be added. Perhaps we will continue with the rewrite. Nereocystis 23:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
This section is badly POV. There are a few issues. Mormons consider themselves Christians. The phrase:
implicitly excludes polygamous Mormon fundamentalists, who make up a large part of Christian polygamists, and often live in communities of other Mormon polygamists,
This sentence:
is also quite POV, suggesting that any other interpretation of Christian polygamy is inferior to this interpretation.
In addition, this section describes the teachings of truthbearer.org, which is a group or sect of Christian polygamists, the group that Researcher99 seems to be associated with. I'm not sure what the right word is for this group. Other non-Mormon Christian polygamists disagree with this group. http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM051-History.html describes some of the beliefs of other Christian polygamists. I'm not clear about how many people these web sites represent, but they consider themselves to be Christian polygamists, who disagree with the love-not-force concept. God's Free Men and Women also has a different take on Christian polygamy. Both of them were once associated, perhaps slightly, with truthbearer.org. Here's a possible rewrite
Researcher99 previously responded to this suggestion at Talk:Polygamy/Archive 4#NPOV - Yep, I know..., and objects to the rewrite, but did not give an alternative version. I have added this to RfCs Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Religion and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society and law. Nereocystis 23:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I made a mistake. I forgot to add the item to the religion page. It's there now. You're right that a discussion would be good. I only slightly understand. Researcher99 considers the other web sites to be single individuals, and not worthy of mention. I think that mentioning love-not-force almost requires the mention of a competing viewpoint, even if it were just one crazy loner. Clearly, love-not-force is implicitly referring to another believe on women's right to choose polygamy. Nereocystis 07:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi,
I've requested mediation for the dispute ongoing here between Researcher99 and Nereocystis (See WP:RFM). Anyone interested in joining it, please report yourself to that page. Please, do it if you have been really involved in the dispute and not just because you want to be part of something "funny"; this is serious. Also, don't think on any kind of suckpuppetry -- Neigel von Teighen 22:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
The mediation failed, at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Researcher99 and Nereocystis. We're now on to arbitration at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#User:Researcher99 on the Polygamy and Group marriage pages and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Abuses on Polygamy article. Perhaps we're reaching the end soon. Nereocystis 23:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy has been accepted; it is a merger of the two requests. A brief statement of the case would be appreciated at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy. Place evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy/Evidence. From Fred Bauder's post at User talk:Nereocystis#Arbitration accepted. Nereocystis 17:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Polygamy has indefinitely banned Researcher99 from edit articles related to polygamy. Now, we can move forward and decide what the polygamy article should look like. I will restore some of the small edits which Researcher99 opposed, adding comments in the talk page if it seems necessary. When time permits, I will look at some of the bigger issues. Thanks for your support during the last few months. Nereocystis 19:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I restored the definition of trigamy, since it is mentioned in the Oxford English Dictionary. I simplified the definition of bigamy. Please comment here if either change seems inappropriate. Nereocystis 00:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
I could go either way. Originally, trigamy was deleted because Researcher99 claimed that it wasn't a word. It's possible that I overreacted and restored it because it is a word, whether or not it is necessary. On the other hand, why include bigamy, but not trigamy, though bigamy is much more common than trigamy. Does anyone else have opinions? Nereocystis 05:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Archiving sounds like a good idea. The possible rewrite could stay, at least for now. The accusations should be archived. I'll take a look at it in a few days if no one else does it. Nereocystis 21:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure where to put this question, but would it be possible/acceptable to place the description of Mormon polygamy as a subheading under Christian polygamy? It seems like the current outlined format implies that Mormons are not Christians, although I know that the fact that Mormons do consider themselves Christians has been acknowledged on this Talk page. JordeeBec 18:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes Mormons should go under the Christian section because they are Christians. The Mormon Church's official title is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS). The LDS church has Christ in its name, how can any doubt their Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.103.119 ( talk) 14:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e. the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled."[Sahih Bukhari, Book 50 “Conditions”, Hadith 3.882]
Al-Fataawa al-Kubra of Ibn Taymiyah, part 3, Kitaab al-Nikaah: “… these conditions and similar ones are valid according to the madhhab of Imaam Ahmad and other scholars among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, such as ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, Shurayh al-Qaadi, al-Oozaa’i and Ishaaq. According to the madhhab of Maalik, the condition states that if he marries another wife, (the first wife) has the choice of what to do, and this is a valid condition. The woman has the right to leave him in this case. This is similar to the idea in the Madhhab of Imaam Ahmad. The basis for this is the hadeeth narrated by (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) in al-Saheehayn from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): ‘The most deserving of conditions to be fulfilled are those by means of which sexual intercourse becomes permissible for you.’ ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: ‘Rights are in accordance with conditions.’ The Prophet dictated that the conditions which make sexual intercourse permissible are more deserving of fulfilment than others. This is the ruling on conditions of this nature.”
al-Mughni of Ibn Qudamah Vol. 9, Page 483: “(A condition) that which must be fulfill. It is a condition wherein its benefit and worth are returned. Examples are stipulations wherein he (vows) not to remove her from her residence or land, or that he will not travel with her (to foreign lands), or that he will not take another wife while with her. All of these are conditions that he would be bound to fulfilling (if he agreed to them before cohabitation). If he does not honour the stipulations she is granted the ability (and right) to annul the marriage (at her will). This is reported as being the opinion of: Umar bin al-Khattab, Sa‘d bin Abi Waqas, Mu‘awiyah, ‘Amr bin al- ‘Aas (radia Allahu ‘Anhom). It was also stated by: Shurayh, ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-Aziz, Jabir bin Zayd, Tawus, Al-Awza‘i and Ishaq…….As well we have named many Sahaba who validated these stipulations, and none from their generation / peers refuted them. Therefore we establish this as being Ijma‘ (consensual agreement by them all).”
taken from a useful article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Houri/continue
http://www.answering-christianity.com/pious_woman.pdf
The Creation of Eve
Ibn Kathir relates the following:
“Ibn Abbas and a group of the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) narrated that when Iblis (Satan) was sent out of Paradise and Adam was accommodated therein, Adam was alone in Paradise and did not have a partner from whom he could get tranquility. He slept for some time and when he woke up, he saw a woman whom Allah had created from his ribs. So he asked her, "Who are you? She replied, "A woman" He asked: "Why have you been created?" She said :"So that you could find tranquility in me." The angels, trying to find out the extent of his knowledge, asked him: "What is her name, O Adam?" He replied, "Eve". They asked: "Why was she so named?" He replied, " Because she was created from something living."” 3
"O Mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam) and from Him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve), and from them both He created many men and women.” [Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa’(4):1]
God also said:
"It is he Who has created you from a single person (Adam) and then He created from him his wife (Eve), in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her." [ Qur’an, Surah Al-A’raf (7):189]
The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in his last sermon:
“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action….”4
It is very clear without any trace of ambiguity that God created only one Adam for Eve and only one Eve for Adam. Qur’an speaks in most of the cases by referring to the male figure, but in general sense it implies both the male and the female.
By the above mentioned verses of the Qur’an it can be easily derived that God has created one person as a mate of another. It is love, pleasure and tranquility within each other that the two mates are in need of. By contemplating on the evidence given above it can be deduced that a male is naturally inclined toward only one female and the female is naturally inclined toward only one male. If it were other than that, then God would have created many Adams for Eve or many Eves for Adam. To create one, two, three or even a thousand Adams for Eve or create one, two, three or even a thousand Eves for Adam would have been very easy for God. Instead God did not create anything like that.
"So set you your face towards the religion (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in khalqillah (the Religion of Allah), that is the straight religion, but most men know not."[Qur’an, Surah Ar-Rum(30):30]
It is reasonable enough to say that Adam and Eve were created in the Fitrah, which means pure natural inclinations. One of human natural inclinations is to have one mate and jealousy is another of the natural inclinations, both of which have the same root.5
Marriage of More Than One Wife of The Prophet
Some people wrongly have assumed that marrying more than one is part of the sunnah and should be followed no matter what. To attribute such claims we have to ask the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself what he (peace be upon him) has to say concerning such issue. Nevertheless before proceeding to that point, Imam Ibn al-Athir al_Jazaree (554-606 H) has said that the marriage of more than one wife of the prophet was to solve social problems of that time, when the social institutions were not stable enough to allow for other possibilities. This is in conformance with what God says:
And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you - [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course. [Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa’ (4):3]
It is important to read the two last expressions of this verse, “then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.” It is very crucial to note that if the natural inclination were of more than one wife, why would God warn against deviating from the right course, or making injustice. Said ibn Jubayr, Qatadah, and other successors of the Companions, imply the following meaning to the verse, “Just as you are, rightly, fearful of offending against the interests of orphans, you must apply the same careful con¬sideration to the interests and rights of the women whom you intend to marry." 6
It will become clear to the reader than the above allowance of marrying more than one is a solution to social circumstances and not a unrestricted right given to the man over woman. If misused, then it will lead to injustice as implied in the verse above. 7
Let’s suppose on a first instance that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging the marriage to more than one wife by practicing it himself. Then what a better example could have he (peace be upon him) found than to implement this lifestyle to his daughter Fatima. She should be an example for all the women of Islam. And the Prophet (peace be upon him) does the following when Fatima encountered such an occasion:
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me." 8
What he (peace be upon him) does is totally the opposite what one would expect from a man who is supposed to encourage something that he himself practices. The Prophet (peace be upon him) understood it very well the inclination towards one mate and the hurtful feeling that would cause sharing the beloved companion with another. Therefore Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) gives two choices to Ali, either to remain married only to Fatima, or divorce her and marry the other woman. Ali chooses the first one.
It is important to notice that this nullifies the assumption that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging in any shape or form the practice of marrying more than one wife. Therefore reasons such as it is the unrestricted right of man or man is inclined towards having more than one wife is very far from the truth. It would imply that the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him), had no knowledge of that. On the other hand a very plausible explanation is that only social hardships allow for such circumstances in the best interest of the women as made clear by Imam Ibn al-Athir al-Jazaree and even that with certain restrictions that will be mentioned as we continue establishing the truth with proofs.
The Contract of Marriage
In Islam marriage is a civil contract between the two parties, the husband and the wife. In this contract both parties must agree to the conditions being put in it. The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said: "From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e. the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled." 9
One of the conditions that can be put into the marriage contract is that the future wife requires from her future husband that he will not marry another woman while she is married to him. This condition is valid and does not contradict the verses of the Qur’an where God allows the man to marry more than one.10 The Qur’an lays out the maximum number of women that a man can be married at one time under the exception of fulfilling justice. Whether the man wants to get married or not, or get married to one or more, that is only up to the individual. Therefore a condition of marrying only one is within the bounds of what the Qur’an is allowing. Reading the Qur’an, the encouragement is towards marrying only one due to it being more just.
Moreover the validity of such condition has been agreed by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, Sa’d bin Abee Wakas, Mu’aweeyah,‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, Shurayh al-Qaadi, al-Oozaa’I, Ishaaq, ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-Aziz and Jabeer bin Zayd.11,12
Therefore if such condition is valid, it cannot be claimed that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging the practice of marrying more than one wife, but at the same time allowing conditions from the part of a woman restricting her husband to not marry another while she is married to him. The jealousy is not a characteristic pertinent only to the male figure, but also to the female since we explained earlier that the natural inclinations of both are towards having one mate, not shared with others. This condition accedes with the hadith of Fatima being hurt if Ali married another woman and the Prophet (peace be upon him) giving Ali the option of divorcing his daughter in order to marry another.
Divorce on Part of the Wife
God says:
A divorce may be [revoked] twice, whereupon the marriage must either be resumed in fairness or dissolved in a goodly manner. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything of what you have ever given to your wives unless both [partners] have cause to fear that they may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God: hence, if you have cause to fear that the two may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God, there shall be no sin upon either of them for what the wife may give up [to her husband] in order to free herself. These are the bounds set by God; do not, then, transgress them: for they who transgress the bounds set by God-it is they, they who are evildoers! [Qur’an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2):229]
All authorities concur that this verse gives an unconditional right to the woman to divorce her husband. This is reinforced by the following hadith:
Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The wife of Thabit bin Qais came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for defects in his character or his religion, but I, being a Muslim, dislike to behave in un−Islamic manner (if I remain with him)." On that Allah's Apostle said (to her), "Will you give back the garden which your husband has given you (as Mahr)?" She said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said to Thabit, "O Thabit! Accept your garden, and divorce her once." 13
In accordance with this tradition, when the wife divorces the husband without him committing an offence against his marital obligations, the wife has to return the dower she received for marriage in order to dissolve the marriage as related in the verse above mentioned. This kind of divorce strengthens the point that marrying more than one wife is to solve social problems and at the same time the wife has the unrestricted right to divorce the husband at any time she sees it fit. This position leaves no room for oppression or hardship on the wife emotionally and gives restrains to the husband in order to not allow for abuses or fear the consequences of his actions.
The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said:
“Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission” 4
in Polygamy#Islam it's written: 'Even though Muhammed was himself polygamous, he expressed disapproval of it for his own daughter, Fatima, and recognised that it would emotionally upset her. According to Bukhari (who mentions the hadith twice, Book 7, Number 115 and 152),
this is a sunni viewpoint. by shi'ite(shia) viewpoint, this is certainly wrong. shi'ites believe that Imam Ali ibn Abitalib didn't want to marry anyone when Fatima(daughter of Muhammad) was alive. shi'ites believe that Bukhari is corrupted.
The "Sahih Bukhari" book(which Muhammed's Idea about his daughter's polygamy is written) is a Hadith book of Sunni muslims, which Shia's don't believe it's correctness. Shia's believe that Muhammed said "Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see and what hurts her." in a different situation. Seraj 14:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
in Polygamy#Islam it's written: "According to traditional Islamic law, a man may take up to four wives (however such limit is not found in the Qur'an, the Qur'an only stated 'place two and three and four', such statement was also used to describe the number of wings that angels have, and the wings of angels aren't limited to four wings) it's also written: "there's no verse in the Qur'an that allow or not allow a woman to have more than one husband at a time."
Muslims believe that Quran and Hadith are both the sources of Islamic Law.hadith has a special status citing sura Al-A'raf 157:
This and other Qur'anic verses require Muslims to follow authentic hadith. even the rakaat's of Salah(whith is a pillar of the Five Pillars of Islam in Sunni Islam, and one of the ten Branches of Religion in Shi'a Islam) is not mentioned in Quran. So saying:
and
will lead into readers' error. They will think that Quranic Islam allows more than 4 wives; but this is not true.
http://www.geocities.com/masad02/004
Surah Nisa(4): 3
And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you*- [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess.** This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.
As regards the permission to marry more than one wife (up to the maximum of four), it is so restricted by the condition, "if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [marry only] one", as to make such plural marriages possible only in quite exceptional cases and under exceptional circumstances (see also the first clause of 24: 32 and the corresponding note). Still, one might ask why the same latitude has not been given to women as well; but the answer is simple. Notwithstanding the spiritual factor of love which influences the relations between man and woman, the determinant biological reason for the sexual urge is, in both sexes, procreation: and whereas a woman can, at one time, conceive a child from one man only and has to carry it for nine months before she can conceive another, a man can beget a child every time he cohabits with a woman. Thus, while nature would have been merely wasteful if it had produced a polygamous instinct in woman, man's polygamous inclination is biologically justified. It is, of course, obvious that the biological factor is only one - and by no means always the most important - of the aspects of marital love: none the less, it is a basic factor and, therefore, decisive in the institution of marriage as such. With the wisdom that always takes human nature fully into account, Islamic Law undertakes no more than the safeguarding of the socio-biological function of marriage (which includes also care of the progeny), allowing a man to have more than one wife ald not allowing a woman to have more than one husband at one time; while the spiritual problem of marriage, being imponderable and therefore outside the scope of law, is left to the discretion of the partners. In any event - since marriage in Islam is a purely civil contract - recourse to divorce is always open to either of the two partners. (Regarding the dissolution of a marriage at the wife's instance, see note on surah 2, verse 229.)
THE TWENTY-FOURTH SURAH
AN-NUR (THE LIGHT)
MARRIAGE
(32) AND [you ought to] marry the single from among you [I.e., from among the free members of the community, as is evident from the subsequent juxtaposition with slaves. (As most of the classical commentators point out, this is not an injunction but a recommendation to the community as a whole: hence my interpolation of the words, “you ought to”.) The term ayyim - of which ayama is the plural - signifies a person of either sex who has no spouse, irrespective of whether he or she has never been married or is divorced or widowed. Thus, the above verse expresses the idea - reiterated in many authentic sayings of the Prophet - that, from both the ethical and the social points of view, the married state is infinitely preferable to celibacy.] as well as such of your male and female slaves as are fit [for marriage]. [The term as-salihin connotes here both moral and physical fitness for marriage: i.e., the attainment of bodily and mental maturity as well as mutual affection between the man and the woman concerned. As in 4: 25, the above verse rules out all forms of concubinage and postulates marriage as the only basis of lawful sexual relations between a man and his female slave.] If they [whom you intend to marry] are poor, [let this not deter you;] God will grant them sufficiency out of His bounty - for God is infinite [in His mercy], all-knowing. (33) And as for those who are unable to marry, [I.e., because of poverty or because they cannot find a suitable mate, or for any other personal reason.] let them live in continence until God grants them sufficiency out of His bounty,
DEED OF FREEDOM
(33) And if any of those whom you rightfully possess [Lit., “whom your right hands possess”, i.e., male or female slaves.] desire [to obtain] a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you are aware of any good in them: [The noun kitab is, in this context, an equivalent of kitabah or mukatabah (lit., “mutual agreement in writing”), a juridical term signifying a “deed of freedom” or “of manumission” executed on the basis of an agreement between a slave and his or her owner, to the effect that the slave undertakes to purchase his or her freedom for an equitable sum of money payable in installments before or after the manumission, or, alternatively, by rendering a clearly specified service or services to his or her owner. With this end in view, the slave is legally entitled to engage in any legitimate, gainful work or to obtain the necessary sum of money by any other lawful means (e.g., through a loan or a gift from a third person). In view of the imperative form of the verb katibuhum (“write it out for them”), the deed of manumission cannot be refused by the owner, the only pre-condition being an evidence - to be established, if necessary, by an unbiased arbiter or arbiters - of the slave’s good character and ability to fulfill his or her contractual obligations. The stipulation that such a deed of manumission may not he refused, and the establishment of precise juridical directives to this end, clearly indicates that Islamic Law has from its very beginning aimed at an abolition of slavery as a social institution, and that its prohibition in modern times constitutes no more than a final implementation of that aim. (See also next note, as well as note on 2: 177.) and give them [their share of the wealth of God which He has given you. [According to all the authorities, this relates (a) to a moral obligation on the part of the owner to promote the slave’s efforts to obtain the necessary revenues by helping him or her to achieve an independent economic status and/or by remitting part of the agreed-upon compensation, and (b) to the obligation of the state treasury (bayt al-mal) to finance the freeing of slaves in accordance with the Quranic principle - enunciated in 9: 60 - that the revenues obtained through the obligatory tax called zakah are to be utilized, among other purposes, “for the freeing of human beings from bondage” (fi r-riqab, an expression explained in note on 2: 177). Hence, Zamakhshari holds that the above clause is addressed not merely to persons owning slaves but to the community as a whole - The expression “the wealth of God” contains an allusion to the principle that “God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions, promising them paradise in return” (9: 111) - implying that all of man’s possessions are vested in God, and that man is entitled to no more than their usufruct.]
PROHIBITION OF CONCUBINAGE
(33) And do not, in order to gain [Lit., “so that you might seek out” or “endeavour to attain to”.] some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; [Lit., “if they desire protection against unchastity (tahassun)”, i.e., through marriage (cf. the expression muhsanat as used in 4: 24). Most of the classical commentators are of the opinion that the term fatayat (“maidens”) denotes here “slave-girls”: an assumption which is fully warranted by the context hence, the above verse reiterates the prohibition of concubinage by explicitly describing it as “whoredom” (bigha).] and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled [to submit in their helplessness], God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! (34) AND, INDEED, from on high have We bestowed upon you messages clearly showing the truth, and [many] a lesson from [the stories of] those who have passed away before you, and [many] an admonition to the God-conscious.
Where did you find this:
This statement isn't true. Is there any resources for it? Seraj 15:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I just reverted a series of changes by 4.246.30.203, all of which sought to whitewash Mormon history. The original text was supported by a number of sources, including both the Krakaur and Brodie books, so it's not a lack of citation. It was altered because it was accurate but not flattering to Mormons. My guess is that these changes were by a Mormon who is embarassed by their religion's past. In short, the changes were contrary to verifiable sources and were POV. I consider the change to be vandalism.
While I'm here, I should explain a change I'm about to make. Currently, the Mormon section is separated from the Christian section by Islam. Since Mormonism is a form of Christianity, albeit a distinct one that is not in the mainstream, it should be grouped under, or at least near, Christianity. Alienus 08:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to write this, but I deleted a part that says "However Mormon doctrine also states that polygamy will be resumed in the "next life" so the manifesto is really only meant to be a temporary end to polygamy." It misleading to say that it is only to be a "temporary end" to polygamy. While it is honest to say that mormon doctrine (and practice) allows for polygamy in the afterlife (and I have left this in), it is just ridiculous to say that this means mormons only view the manifesto as a "temporary end to polygamy." They don't. And this passage doesn't convey the truth as well as the redundant passage I left in. Amulekii 20:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
"Both polygamy and polyandry were practiced in ancient times among certain sections of the Hindu society. " Besides my knowledge, my immediate source of this statement was this very section. The section already says that:
Could someone add Paganism, Neo-Paganism and Buddhism to the page, please? This would make it more complete.
This section and the one following, recently added, strikes me as completely OR, with a big dose of POV. Could someone else take a look and see if I'm missing something? -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 18:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
BTW, I cannot quote every dissertation or essays or media documentaries made on the topic in Greater China Region. Please follow the links and dig more if needed. Xaaan5 16:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Xaaan5 16:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Xaan, regarding your comment about Wikipedia needing to book-length, that is exactly the opposite of what I was saying viz. that the book-length stuff has to be conducted outside of Wikipedia. You just need one reference for each claim you're making. Those links of yours are search results, not scholarly sources. mg e kelly 16:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Among the search results, there are links to academic researches! Anyway, what make it so difficult for you guys to accept that what is happening in the greater China region regarding polygamy/polygyny? The phenomenon is here. IF i have all the energy to do the proper dissertation citation, I shall be a PHD myself researching or educating students instead of having to answer the strange requests or to fight the opposition HERE. Why make sharing knowledge a guilty crime??! Xaaan5 16:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I’ve tried to remove redundant text and to tighten the wording of the section. The following is mostly for Xaaan5, but anyone else with the necessary knowledge (or, at least, mastery of the languages involved and ability to use Google) is also very strongly invited to help:
ref
element, or some other appropriate method. In particular, these citations must be visible to the reader.Is that acceptable? — xyzzy n 19:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
So NoW I feel the strong presence of the academics and PHDs making this WIKIPEDIA. IF u want serious academic thing, why don't u just limit your membership to academics only? Removing all the facts & common knowledge and asking for detailed citation is a very dogmatic approach. It is so sad that people who cannot read Chinese and then just ignore and discredit what are there. AND, when I sow the seed, sooner or later some other people can add citation. Why people like XYZZY just can not wait to delete my writing? I feel so SICK. 220.246.154.17 03:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I dislike being constantly targetted. (1) Why put all the burden of proof on me alone when Wikipedia can be a collaboration? Other people can expand or add citations. Why people are so much in a hurry to delete the knowledge of what other people are trying to share?? (2) I have added more citations. Stop being so dogmatic to ask for citation of every statement. Eg. Law is law and do I need to cite the law, too? Do all wikipedia user have to cite for everything they wrote? (3) What I wrote was a distillation of what I read in print, on screen, from news, from common knowledge, traditional wisdom, from www and TV documentary. How do you supposed I cite for every statement?!?!?!?!?! (4) Why won't hyperlinks to www resources be accepted as a proof of the existence of the phenomenon or things I stated?!?! As what I wrote have been repeatedly removed, I feel almost like being gang-raped. Xaaan5 05:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I welcome gramatic correction if needed but not removing blocks. If you are so insisting with the proper citation for every statement, just do your PHD back in the universities. OR get WIKIPEDIA to limit membership to Masters, Doctors, Professors & Professionals!!!! Stop pestering. I feel very very sick. Xaaan5 05:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Some quick definitions: dogma-a doctrine or belief that is held to be true without proof; proof-the establishment of a belief's truth through evidence; common knowledge-something many people believe to be true, not necessarily based on proof; traditonal wisdom-see common knowledge, add ten years. -Some newb with a dictionary
I take it no-one's really started cleaning up the material added by Xaaan5? A blanket issue concerning his edits which concerns me is that most of it seems to be about marital infidelity rather than polygamy per se. Some of it seems to me to be clearly irrelevant. For example, it stated that Mao had an extramarital lover, and seemed to imply that this was in contravention of anti-poylgamy laws. Unless there is a different concept of polygamy in China, this seems to be nonsense. However, if Taiwanese businessmen have second families in China, well that looks a lot more like polygamy. Still, there is a clear distinction between one's wife and one's mistress in law. What does anyone think? mg e kelly 15:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Having though about this for about 5 seconds, I think the stuff about having multiple sexual relationships should probably be under polyamory. mg e kelly 15:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Mgekelly. Multiple sexual relationships / secret affair = polygamy outside the law. The relationship of a man and a woman meet and stay overnight together from time to time, having sex, probably is a form of marraige without documentary or registration.
Because of the monogamy law, polygamy cannot exsist in name... and thus became secret affair. The nature of the relationship of most secret affair is a type of polygamy or polygyny.
Don't be so dogmatic! If you put everything in strict sense and criteria, people looking for polygamy cannot find much information as long as polygamy is illegal in most of the countries.
As polygamy is the general term to cover many types of those relationships/marriage, it is appropriate to include various related facts and happenings under it. 220.246.134.138 14:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
This is not dogmatism on my part. The English word 'polygamy' manifestly only covers actual marriages. This is indisputable. In European culture, where polygamy has been banned for thousands of years, people have always had mistresses and other extra-marital relationships. There is certainly an interesting article to be written on that, but it is not this one. A note suggesting that some kind of 'calndestine polygamy' still exists in China is fine - but if there are no clandestine marriage ceremonies, I would argue this isn't clandestine polygamy at all, but just what it is - people having kept women. mg e kelly 16:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Last I checked, a Mormon man can be sealed to multiple women in a number of cases (such as when his first wife dies and he remarries). This would mean that he would be married to both in the afterlife, which is post-mortem polygamy as part of celestial marriage. Am I mistaken? Al 21:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Although polygamy is not recognized as "marriage", is the polygamous lifestyle legal or illegal in California? Just Curious. Zachorious 10:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
How could it not be? What would the law prohibit? Co-habitation or sexual relations? The Supreme Court has explicitly struck down laws that seek to prevent certain living arrangements; and I doubt the gov't has any inclination or authority to ban sex... W.Ross 13:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, but it's not clear why these tags were added? I can't find any reason given for them being added, and this article has sources. Are we able to move the unreferenced tag to appropriate sub-sections, and/or use {{ Fact}} tags? Mdwh 02:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Am I the only one who thinks the links section seems weird? Three things quickly jump out before my eyes.
Wouldn't it be better to just list only complete web-sites than one-page articles too? It's mostly that now, but there are a few links that are just articles. I won't make any changes on that yet. Any ideas?
A site called Hope for the Child Brides is listed in the "Neutral" section. With a name like that, the implication of its name shows it is not a neutral site. Does anyone else agree?
In the "Christian Polygamy" links section, the first listing is only a yahoo list with only about 100 members. Yahoolists are a dime a dozen. Does that really qualify to be listed. If so, does it qualify to be listed first?
I am choosing to make the first edit on this last one.
To find out more about this, I went through the history at Wikipedia. The change looks like it was made by the owner the yahoo list, but I do not know that directly. Originally, that section looked like this. In the next edit, the user added the yahoo group link for the first time. They placed it at the top of the section. They called their yahoo list a group. They moved the movement's larger web-sites down lower. Then they played with the truthbearer organization link. They removed the reference identifying it as an organization. Then they say that organization site offers its services for a fee. That aditional comment seems POV to me in contrast to their free yahoo list. Why was it necessary for that editor to say that while adding the yagoo list link at the top? That is what I find quesitonable. When I go to the [www.truthbearer.org] site, I see that their organization has been on NBC, Newsweek, the Washington Times, etc etc etc. Obviously, truthbearer is a real organization. It is well-known in the media. I also see from their site map that their organizaation's website is huge. There are lots of free information. It even has an entire book online. The site only calls for money are for paying members. That happens with any organization. That is not unusual. Looking at this, I think it break NPOV to imply that www.truthbearer.org is just a site charging money. Because it was changed by the person adding the free yahoo list, it looks to me like they were breaking NPOV there. In sum, the change looks like a tiny yahoo list owner added their link while trying to undercut the professional well-known organization.
So, in trying to be bold, I am going to put the links in the Christian Polygamy section back the way they were. I will move the free yahoo list down in that section. I don't think a free yahoo list should even be listed. Does anyone else think a tiny yahoo list should even qualify to be listed?
Mildy Amused 19:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
To unsigned anonymous editor, I am glad we agree about the Yahoo list. I don't see what you mean about sites being under the direction of truthbearer.org. In the current version of the article, the first site educates Wikipedia readers about the Christian Polygamy movement itself. The second site listed is the leading organization that made the movement possible. From what I see, it is an organization of many families with a number of media reports about them. Everywhere you look about Christian Polygamy, that organization is all over the media. Nothing else compares to it. So any other websites referencing the organization just makes sense to me. If that's what you mean. I will look closer when I have time though. The third site lists out all arguments that people have about polygamy and the Bible. I think those first three sites provide unique branches of information. They serve Wikipedia readers looking for each specifc information in their research. The fourth site is a man's site. I think his site from England, although that doesn't mean anything. I think the fifth site should be removed because all its says is that it's coming soon. The sixth site is the Yahoo list which are always a dime a dozen. We already agree about that one. So, I do not think anything should be done to the first four sites in the Christian Polygamy links. I do think that the last two should be removed, though.
Mildy Amused 17:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It sounds to me like this is missing another key possible form (don't know whether it has ever occured) that is when there are more then one man and more then one woman but the women are only primarily or solely responsible for their own children (and not the children of other women). In modern days, it would also be much more easily possible for the men to be primarily or solely responsible for their own children (obvious, without DNA testing this would be more difficult although it would depend on the arrangement) Nil Einne 06:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a bit confusing. As far as I can tell, polymatchmaker welcomes all poly-ies so to speak, whether polygynysts, polyandrists, polyarmourists or whatever so it isn't really a polyamory website. Also, the talk of bisexual issues seems confusing. While I appreciate that traditional polygyny-based cultures do not support or allow sexual contact between wives, from my understanding of polygyny the term it self simply describes a situation where there is one husband and multiple wives. Therefore, a living situation where the wives have sexual contact with each other would still be polygynist.
Perhaps the issue is not 'bisexuality' but that these sites welcome those interested in group marriages and polyandrous marriages and therefore these people would be present as well. However I would assume want each person wants would be clearly labelled and in any case are issues for all participants. A person interested in groups marriages we can presume would NOT be interested in someone interested in polyandrous or polygynys marriages. Similarly with someone interested in polyandrous relationships.
Nil Einne 06:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a brief statement in the article that polygamists may find it harder to obtain immigrant status, but what is the legal status of polygamists from countries where it is legal who visit countries such as the U.S.? Does the law recognize all, one, or none of them as wives for purposes of directing medical care, inheritance, suing for divorce, applying for citizenship, and so on? Are they regarded as violating a law when they are all in the U.S.? Mike Serfas 02:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Are all either broken, or to xtian sites, not jewish ones. Why was this reverted when I removed them? FiveRings 21:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted most of the text in this section as it is a) completely false and b) largely made up of long quotes from the Quran which b.1) are not in an encyclopedic style and b.2) have been selectively taken from that source so to further the author's point of view.
Basically the section was so misleading and point of view biased that in its current state it detracts from a factual article. I have flagged it with the "expert needed" tag so that someone who knows the laws and statistics in specific countries and who has more available time than I, can add precise - and hopefully this time - factual information. Canderra 02:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh btw someone needs to edit the quote "it often occurs rarely" it sounds bad lol
I was the one who expanded the article which was deleted for no good reason. I have a few points that I take issue with:
Palestine48 14:02, 15 October 2006
You have to mention the Prophets multiple wives. I mean, seriously. This is an article about the same subject. It is borth pertitent and relevant.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.39.63.190 ( talk • contribs)
The source is a general discussion of the one child policy and isn't related to the statement at all.
Unlike polygyny, polyandry is considered taboo. However, the One-Child Policy has been increasing the male to female ratio, which may force a revisiting of this attitude. [3]
Roadrunner 10:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
It excludes South Africa, Many christians zulu have more than one wife.-- HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 14:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I intend to be bold and edit the lead to reflect that polygamy is not one form of marriage, but several. The edit will replace "a" with "any". I am aware that changing the second sentence of a lead paragraph on a controversial topic can cause a stir. Please believe my intention is to improve the article, not to offensively push any particular POV. If my edit offends someone, please explain why! Sdsds 05:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a rather unorthodox interpretation of the Great Learning
In
Confucianism, the ability of a man to manage a family, which usually meant more than one wife and set of children, was emphasised as part of the steps of learning for personal growth in
Daxue (
Great Learning)
[4].
Quoting Professor Xu who explained the Confucianism (大學之道)Quoting 徐醒民教授《儒學簡說》: 格物、致知、誠意、正心、修身、齊家、治國、平天下 which
Zhu Xi had summarized from the book of
Great Learning(Daxue).
The 8 learning steps & use
Text quote in Chinese with pronunciation
Original text Daxue I. 4 & 5
Also, looking through the citations, they all seem to be summaries of the Great Learning, and they don't mention polygamy at all.
Roadrunner 03:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The recent edit putting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints under a new "Pseudo-Christian Groups" section is, I believe, a breach of WP:NPOV. Even-handed discussion of whether Mormons are Christians would more properly belong in the article on Mormonism and Christianity. Richwales 05:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is there a link to the Mariavite article? Neither that article nor this asserts that the Mariavites have ever practiced polygamy. I did find one site that makes that asssertion, [5]. If it's generally accepted as true, then fine; this page and the Mariavite page should say so. If it's disputed, then, again, the disputed allegation should be mentioned. If it's generally accepted as false, then there shouldn't be a link.