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Does the article contain in your opinion any violations of WP:NPOV , WP:Verifiability, WP:What Wikipedia is not and WP:OR?!! 08:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Responding to request for comments at WP:Lith.
The article as written looks NPOV to me. Only 1 citation needed tag is in it; the German occupation section does need some inline citations.
The title could be considered POV, and hence problematic, because a significant minority - the Russian government - objects to the term "occupation". Their acknowlegment of that word would open the door to discussing reparations to this and other former Soviet republics. Citation needed, but shouldn't be too hard to find, and would add a valuable perspective.
The majority of the article covers Latvia during WWII, so I would vote for that name - with a good-sized aftermath section. More could be put into other articles, and the lead would have to be rewritten (which is of course not a trivial task). It does seem customary for historians to divide the 20th century into WWI, interwar, WWII, and post-war eras - that would also accomodate the expansions that will come to Latvian history on WP.
It would be a loss if this were to be derailed from Good Article over the title - so much good work and references. I completely understand the wish to link the series of occupations together - one long nightmare - but also think readers will find the events dreadful no matter how it's titled.
Hope this all works out. I would be happy to help when the dust settles a bit. Novickas 15:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
PS The pictures are definitely POV unless they can be balanced with pictures of Latvians in the concentration camps - a well-referenced event - and those pictures are nonexistent. Novickas 15:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The article has not been allowed to develop because of ceasless attacks and diversion of editing resources into these endless disputes. Absolutely zero evidence has been produced from any reputable source by any editor opposing the article title or content to support the official Russian position, therefore it is noted appropriately but not dealt with as an "equal but opposing viewpoint." It is merely a "version" of history.
The article is specifically NOT just about WWII, it only appears to be that way currently because, in fact, only the very first section regarding the initial Soviet occupation (prior to Nazi invasion/occupation) has been completed.
I expect we'll have the usual accusations of tenditious editing, allegations of Nazi hate speech, denouncements of equating of Soviet liberation of Eastern Europe with the Holocaust, accusations of Holocaust denial, representation of the majority of Latvians being all to eager for Nazi guns so they could shoot Jews... I believe I've covered them all.
Now that I've put the stake in the ground, yet again, I'm hoping to sit out this round of RfCs. —
Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
For now I'm just going to continue counting on Encyclopædia Britannica as the reliable Encyclopædia instead of WP. The Encyclopædia that is widely considered to be the most scholarly of encyclopedias. The encyclopedia that has an article:Latvia The Soviet occupation and incorporation [1], the article this one here is based on including the events from 1940, from July 1941 to October 1944. The article that in Encyclopædia Britannica includes A national renaissance developed in the late 1980s in connection with the Soviet campaigns for glasnost (“openness”) and perestroika + Soviet efforts to restore the earlier situation culminated in violent incidents in Riga in January 1991 . After a failed coup in Moscow in August, the Latvian legislature declared full independence, which was recognized by the Soviet Union on September 6. [2]. Thanks!-- Termer 18:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
This article covers both Soviet occupations thus time limit was not justified. I have moved it but I suspect that after discussion of over an appropriate name there may be another move. Latvian SSR is an article about a member state of SU not the occupation itself so merging the second occupation to that one is not appropriate.I hope this settles the issue.-- Alexia Death the Grey 11:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
"Disputed" applies only to factual accuracy. The article also suffers from WP:SYNT as explained ad naseum. Do not remove good-faithed tags over editor's objections. I've said all there is to it in the previous discussions. -- Irpen 15:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, "Soviet occupations of Latvia" is even more clumsy title for the article than Occupations of Latvia. Occupied Latvia was clearly preferred on the talk page over there. Now, once and for all, lets get few things straight, since Latvia was incorporated into USSR in 1941, illegally or not, it doesn't matter. There always is going to no consensus regarding occupied Latvia 1944-1991. Since WP is working on building a consensus, and it doesn't make any difference how the story gets told here, I'd suggest Alexia Death the Grey restore the title Occupied Latvia (1940-41). As a compromise, so that it could be interpreted either ways, I'd also suggest Occupied Latvia 1940, or Occupation of Latvia 1940 once some editors think that mentioning Occupation in the title has such an importance. Since countries get occupied during wars anyway, it just comes with it, I personally would prefer Latvia in WWII that would include all other aspects of the events and the story than just "occupation". Thanks-- Termer 15:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry Alexia Death the Grey, didn't get any of this what you were saying -"country in a state"? Please consider renaming the article like suggested to reach a consensus. Thanks-- Termer 16:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I think I got it finally what seems to be the basis of misunderstandings here. Let me spell it out. Once upon a time there was a Republic of Latvia on the land called Latvia. There was only one party, a body of a state that had claimed the land
Then the Republic in the land got occupied by the USSR in 1940 and it ended up being incorporated into the USSR as Latvian SSR. Thereafter there were 2 parties, 2 bodies of states that had claims on the land:
Now, the Germans occupied the land called Latvia and claimed it by themselves and incorporated it into the province of Ostland. Thereafter there were 3 parties, 3 bodies of states that had claims on the land during 1941-1944
Now, the Germans were pushed out from the land of Latvia in 1944 and the status quo returned to the previous
1944-1991 there were 2 parties that had claims on the land:
In 1991 or so the USSR ended up its claim to the land and thereafter only one party remained.
Taking if from here, saying that the situation during, lets say 1944-1991 was strictly "soviet occupation" as a fact goes with an understanding that a claim is either 1 or zero; right or wrong. That means, it's a judgmental perception. Since there were 2 parties that had claims over the land during the period we can not proceed and call it a fact according to the judgmental perception of the one party only. Even though the viewpoint is supported by the Court of human rights, etc. all the sources. The facts that remain free from judgmental perception are that Latvia was occupied by USSR in 1940, a puppet government was installed. Now, the moment Latvia was incorporated into USSR, there is no more puppet government because the land and the republic were not sovereign any more and the status quo regarding soviet occupation as a fact changed as explained above.
Just as an example, since both parties: Republic of Latvia and USSR or Latvian SSR agree that 1941-1944 constituted the Nazi occupation; we don't have any problems over there because both judgmental perceptions say the same thing. Hope that this explains everything.
Based on the points above, please consider renaming the article. Thanks!-- Termer 19:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
PS. There are enough sources out there that synthesize the events as occupied Latvia from 1940-1991. Therefore the "unpublished synthesis" tag is factually incorrect and should be removed. Thanks-- Termer 19:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
the conclusion you state "occupation drawn by reputable sources" belongs to the article I long proposed about the applicability of the term. Nothing prevents you from using the term in the referenced form and within reason in the article about Soviet Latvia. But there is no reason why such article can only exist with your pet term in the title. History of La, Soviet LA, Latvia within USSR, there are plenty of non-judgmental titles and judgments in referenced form belong to the text and not articles. -- Irpen 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
How about calling the article Occupied Latvia 1940. would that make everybody happy?-- Termer 02:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Soviets occupied in 1940. They then annexed and the country became the part of the USSR. In 1944 they reclaimed their pre-war borders. Latvia was part of the USSR and treated as such, unlike, say, Afghanistan. You cannot "occupy" your own territory. Some do consider the entire period an occupation which make this a good subject for the term article. As for the sources, as I said earlier, check the Columbia and Britannica. Both use the term "Occupation" only for the military event and not for the period. If they manage to do it, there is no reason why Wikipedia cannot. The lack of the word in the title does not deny the "occupation". It simply leaves this referenced claim to be made in the article with the reader left to decide. Your insistence to keep your pet term in the title is the source of all this drama. And I do not even object to its referenced usage within reason and context. -- Irpen 03:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, its more than clear for me by now that we're dealing with a huge communication problem here. so lets just forget about it and once more, would Occupied Latvia 1940 make everybody happy?-- Termer 03:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm cool with Occupation of Latvia (1940) and the German and "2nd soviet occupation" are going to be kept in the Aftermath section. Hope the rest of the guys gonna go for it and we can call it a consensus. Thanks-- Termer 04:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
PS. to Irpen could you please be more considerate and choose words more carefully while dealing with controversial subjects. Things like your pet term & You cannot "occupy" your own territory are the ones for examle that are not going to help bringing parties to mutual understanding and issues closer to a consensus. In case you'd like to know why, I can explain in case necessary. Thanks-- Termer 04:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Re: You cannot "occupy" your own territory.
Re
Irpen at 04:35, occupied territory and integrated territory are different notions sounds good to me instead of the previous statement...
To
Pēters J. Vecrumba and for editors who have been supporting the "Soviet occupations of Latvia". It could be referred to
Double jeopardy to make things more clear what exactly
Irpen is talking about. I think it's time to end this, since both "occupied territory" and "integrated territory" regarding 1944-1991 are POV-s we need to have a middle ground here and current proposals are the best both parties could get out of the subject. therefore, I'd urge everybody to go for it. thanks--
Termer 04:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Irpen, just a friendly reminder that WP talk pages are not a proper place for political debates, therefore unfortunately I can't respond to your opinions.-- Termer 05:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Well OK Irpen, since you insist. “Integrated territory” is a POV simply because the US, the UK etc. never recognized the integration de jure . And also it’s a POV because my grandma and my mom told me so. But let’s concentrate on what’s important here, shall we.-- Termer 05:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Pēters J. Vecrumba, how about calling the article Occupation of Latvia (1940) and the German and "2nd soviet occupation" are going to be kept in the Aftermath section? yes or no? -- Termer 05:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Well Irpen, we're driving in circles here. The fact of integration lacking the recognition of the legality we may speak of is the reason your opponents call it occupation. And there is no point to go to the round 101 with this, perhaps it would be better to move forward.-- Termer 05:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Irpen, please do not attempt to start a political debate over here again, it's not a place for that. since Latvian status within the USSR had an exact same status as any other Soviet republic is a POV and can be easily interpreted as factually incorrect statement by your opponents. If you'd like I can lay it out for you somewhere else in case necessary, what exactly are we dealing with. Or else I'd suggest sticking to the issues related to the article only and most of all, to the points that would help to bring it to a consensus on this talk page. Thanks!-- Termer 07:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I said nothing of the sort. I don't make a judgment =legal. All I am saying that any judgment of this sort is a POV while facts are just facts. Referenced judgments should be left to articles and kept out of titles. -- Irpen 20:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, since this is not going anywhere I'll just proceed and let guide myself by the WP:NPOV policies The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly and call the article according to the reached consensus Occupation of Latvia (1940). As the idea was also supported by the third parties and is the only middle ground available, that is the way to go. However, I'm not going to rush into this but take my time to let the things settle down. Regarding different interpretations of "consensus" here, as far as I'm concerned, it only applies to opinions that are helping to bring the article out of the gridlock. Therefore I'm going to dismiss any statements that refer to only one POV regarding the subject (1944-1991) or the title of this article. Thanks!-- Termer 21:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Pēters J. Vecrumba. it seems you're not getting it. Not to worry, it took me a while as well to get it what is it exactly Irpen has been after. I hope we don't have to go over it once again as it's all covered above. The only thing that would be good to point out once more perhaps, Irpen has asked not to include the "occupation" for the period (1944-91) in the title of the article in order to keep it NPOV. I say it is fair enough and thats what we're going to do.-- Termer 16:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, Alexia Death the Grey Please read the talk page up here. Nobody is saying that the second part of occupation is not an occupation. The only thing thats been said, it should be avoided in a title simply because there are other POV-s regarding the era. The other point, the way a nation writes its own history is very clear. The most common way choosing titles in conventional national history textbooks regarding the subject is the way I've written Estonia in World War II. The other thing is that WP is not a national encyclopedia, therefore the point was not even relevant.
Now, you as the one responsible for changing the title here that BTW, is not currently in sync with the content at all any more. Therefore if you need to, please go back to Occupations of Latvia article and attempt to revert it according to your opinions. This one here was created according to the points already underlined above and at Talk:Occupations_of_Latvia as an article about Occupation of Latvia in 1940. Therefore I have no idea why exactly did you feel it was necessary to change the title so that it doesn't make any sense regards to the content. Further on, please do not attempt to revert or rename this article again once the title has been restored according to the content. Thanks-- Termer 21:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but this article is not meant to be a repository for a list of all possible occupations including ones not even remotely related. Japan???? What is appropriate would be Baltic/Estonian/Lithuanian occupations, that's it. I'm sure there's some more appropriate list of occupations somewhere. Wasn't this already deleted once or was that in another article? — PētersV ( talk) 03:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
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This article should be moved to Soviet occupation of Latvia. We don't need the "in 1940" in the title, and it's wrong - the article discusses post-1940 period as well. I hope this is not controversial... barring any objections, I'll move this article in a few days. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
well, make sure u read "title & scope" above b 4 removing stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.56.102.102 ( talk) 18:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The section on Soviet terror is quite dubious and only cites 2-3 sources, when its over 4 paragraphs long. This needs work. Please be civil if I attempt to make the language less POV, in the near future. I won't delete unsourced material, I'll leave that for discussion. But the language in the article, especially this part, is quite POV and I might work on it in the near future is there isnt any convincing opposition. ValenShephard 09:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ValenShephard ( talk • contribs)
The photo of the three military commanders bears a controversial comment: "Common parade of Wehrmacht and Red Army in Brest at the end of the Invasion of Poland. At the center Major General Heinz Guderian and Brigadier Semyon Krivoshein". It cannot even be confirmed, that this is the city of Brest. Also, there can be seen NO military parade - what the photo claims to depict. I would also like to point out that the film "The Soviet Story" is highly controversial and shown to be wrong on numerous occasions and for that reason can be not used as a source of information. So, if a valid source is not provided, I request this photo to be renamed to something more adequate, like "Meeting of German and Soviet military commanders". In fact, I am going to change the description, anyone is welcome to roll the change back when they are ready to provide a valid source.
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The appropriate title for Soviet re-occupation is re-occupation, not the Latvian SSR. Do not POV-vandalize the section title again. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 15:34, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
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The beginning sentences of
"The occupation took place according to the European Court of Human Rights, the Government of Latvia, the United States Department of State, and the European Union."
is quite confusing in what it's trying to convey. Is it supposed to mean that those groups simply acknowledged the fact that an occupation happened or is it trying to say the occupation followed all the the laws and rules that those groups put out? If it's the first then there should also be added a sentence about groups who deny the occupation, likely the USSR, if it is the latter then it should be made more obvious that those groups are attempting to condone the action. This is especially confusing since the EU didn't even exist at the time of the invasion. EnzoTC ( talk) 15:31, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
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Does the article contain in your opinion any violations of WP:NPOV , WP:Verifiability, WP:What Wikipedia is not and WP:OR?!! 08:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Responding to request for comments at WP:Lith.
The article as written looks NPOV to me. Only 1 citation needed tag is in it; the German occupation section does need some inline citations.
The title could be considered POV, and hence problematic, because a significant minority - the Russian government - objects to the term "occupation". Their acknowlegment of that word would open the door to discussing reparations to this and other former Soviet republics. Citation needed, but shouldn't be too hard to find, and would add a valuable perspective.
The majority of the article covers Latvia during WWII, so I would vote for that name - with a good-sized aftermath section. More could be put into other articles, and the lead would have to be rewritten (which is of course not a trivial task). It does seem customary for historians to divide the 20th century into WWI, interwar, WWII, and post-war eras - that would also accomodate the expansions that will come to Latvian history on WP.
It would be a loss if this were to be derailed from Good Article over the title - so much good work and references. I completely understand the wish to link the series of occupations together - one long nightmare - but also think readers will find the events dreadful no matter how it's titled.
Hope this all works out. I would be happy to help when the dust settles a bit. Novickas 15:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
PS The pictures are definitely POV unless they can be balanced with pictures of Latvians in the concentration camps - a well-referenced event - and those pictures are nonexistent. Novickas 15:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The article has not been allowed to develop because of ceasless attacks and diversion of editing resources into these endless disputes. Absolutely zero evidence has been produced from any reputable source by any editor opposing the article title or content to support the official Russian position, therefore it is noted appropriately but not dealt with as an "equal but opposing viewpoint." It is merely a "version" of history.
The article is specifically NOT just about WWII, it only appears to be that way currently because, in fact, only the very first section regarding the initial Soviet occupation (prior to Nazi invasion/occupation) has been completed.
I expect we'll have the usual accusations of tenditious editing, allegations of Nazi hate speech, denouncements of equating of Soviet liberation of Eastern Europe with the Holocaust, accusations of Holocaust denial, representation of the majority of Latvians being all to eager for Nazi guns so they could shoot Jews... I believe I've covered them all.
Now that I've put the stake in the ground, yet again, I'm hoping to sit out this round of RfCs. —
Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
For now I'm just going to continue counting on Encyclopædia Britannica as the reliable Encyclopædia instead of WP. The Encyclopædia that is widely considered to be the most scholarly of encyclopedias. The encyclopedia that has an article:Latvia The Soviet occupation and incorporation [1], the article this one here is based on including the events from 1940, from July 1941 to October 1944. The article that in Encyclopædia Britannica includes A national renaissance developed in the late 1980s in connection with the Soviet campaigns for glasnost (“openness”) and perestroika + Soviet efforts to restore the earlier situation culminated in violent incidents in Riga in January 1991 . After a failed coup in Moscow in August, the Latvian legislature declared full independence, which was recognized by the Soviet Union on September 6. [2]. Thanks!-- Termer 18:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
This article covers both Soviet occupations thus time limit was not justified. I have moved it but I suspect that after discussion of over an appropriate name there may be another move. Latvian SSR is an article about a member state of SU not the occupation itself so merging the second occupation to that one is not appropriate.I hope this settles the issue.-- Alexia Death the Grey 11:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
"Disputed" applies only to factual accuracy. The article also suffers from WP:SYNT as explained ad naseum. Do not remove good-faithed tags over editor's objections. I've said all there is to it in the previous discussions. -- Irpen 15:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, "Soviet occupations of Latvia" is even more clumsy title for the article than Occupations of Latvia. Occupied Latvia was clearly preferred on the talk page over there. Now, once and for all, lets get few things straight, since Latvia was incorporated into USSR in 1941, illegally or not, it doesn't matter. There always is going to no consensus regarding occupied Latvia 1944-1991. Since WP is working on building a consensus, and it doesn't make any difference how the story gets told here, I'd suggest Alexia Death the Grey restore the title Occupied Latvia (1940-41). As a compromise, so that it could be interpreted either ways, I'd also suggest Occupied Latvia 1940, or Occupation of Latvia 1940 once some editors think that mentioning Occupation in the title has such an importance. Since countries get occupied during wars anyway, it just comes with it, I personally would prefer Latvia in WWII that would include all other aspects of the events and the story than just "occupation". Thanks-- Termer 15:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry Alexia Death the Grey, didn't get any of this what you were saying -"country in a state"? Please consider renaming the article like suggested to reach a consensus. Thanks-- Termer 16:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, I think I got it finally what seems to be the basis of misunderstandings here. Let me spell it out. Once upon a time there was a Republic of Latvia on the land called Latvia. There was only one party, a body of a state that had claimed the land
Then the Republic in the land got occupied by the USSR in 1940 and it ended up being incorporated into the USSR as Latvian SSR. Thereafter there were 2 parties, 2 bodies of states that had claims on the land:
Now, the Germans occupied the land called Latvia and claimed it by themselves and incorporated it into the province of Ostland. Thereafter there were 3 parties, 3 bodies of states that had claims on the land during 1941-1944
Now, the Germans were pushed out from the land of Latvia in 1944 and the status quo returned to the previous
1944-1991 there were 2 parties that had claims on the land:
In 1991 or so the USSR ended up its claim to the land and thereafter only one party remained.
Taking if from here, saying that the situation during, lets say 1944-1991 was strictly "soviet occupation" as a fact goes with an understanding that a claim is either 1 or zero; right or wrong. That means, it's a judgmental perception. Since there were 2 parties that had claims over the land during the period we can not proceed and call it a fact according to the judgmental perception of the one party only. Even though the viewpoint is supported by the Court of human rights, etc. all the sources. The facts that remain free from judgmental perception are that Latvia was occupied by USSR in 1940, a puppet government was installed. Now, the moment Latvia was incorporated into USSR, there is no more puppet government because the land and the republic were not sovereign any more and the status quo regarding soviet occupation as a fact changed as explained above.
Just as an example, since both parties: Republic of Latvia and USSR or Latvian SSR agree that 1941-1944 constituted the Nazi occupation; we don't have any problems over there because both judgmental perceptions say the same thing. Hope that this explains everything.
Based on the points above, please consider renaming the article. Thanks!-- Termer 19:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
PS. There are enough sources out there that synthesize the events as occupied Latvia from 1940-1991. Therefore the "unpublished synthesis" tag is factually incorrect and should be removed. Thanks-- Termer 19:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
the conclusion you state "occupation drawn by reputable sources" belongs to the article I long proposed about the applicability of the term. Nothing prevents you from using the term in the referenced form and within reason in the article about Soviet Latvia. But there is no reason why such article can only exist with your pet term in the title. History of La, Soviet LA, Latvia within USSR, there are plenty of non-judgmental titles and judgments in referenced form belong to the text and not articles. -- Irpen 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
How about calling the article Occupied Latvia 1940. would that make everybody happy?-- Termer 02:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Soviets occupied in 1940. They then annexed and the country became the part of the USSR. In 1944 they reclaimed their pre-war borders. Latvia was part of the USSR and treated as such, unlike, say, Afghanistan. You cannot "occupy" your own territory. Some do consider the entire period an occupation which make this a good subject for the term article. As for the sources, as I said earlier, check the Columbia and Britannica. Both use the term "Occupation" only for the military event and not for the period. If they manage to do it, there is no reason why Wikipedia cannot. The lack of the word in the title does not deny the "occupation". It simply leaves this referenced claim to be made in the article with the reader left to decide. Your insistence to keep your pet term in the title is the source of all this drama. And I do not even object to its referenced usage within reason and context. -- Irpen 03:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, its more than clear for me by now that we're dealing with a huge communication problem here. so lets just forget about it and once more, would Occupied Latvia 1940 make everybody happy?-- Termer 03:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm cool with Occupation of Latvia (1940) and the German and "2nd soviet occupation" are going to be kept in the Aftermath section. Hope the rest of the guys gonna go for it and we can call it a consensus. Thanks-- Termer 04:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
PS. to Irpen could you please be more considerate and choose words more carefully while dealing with controversial subjects. Things like your pet term & You cannot "occupy" your own territory are the ones for examle that are not going to help bringing parties to mutual understanding and issues closer to a consensus. In case you'd like to know why, I can explain in case necessary. Thanks-- Termer 04:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Re: You cannot "occupy" your own territory.
Re
Irpen at 04:35, occupied territory and integrated territory are different notions sounds good to me instead of the previous statement...
To
Pēters J. Vecrumba and for editors who have been supporting the "Soviet occupations of Latvia". It could be referred to
Double jeopardy to make things more clear what exactly
Irpen is talking about. I think it's time to end this, since both "occupied territory" and "integrated territory" regarding 1944-1991 are POV-s we need to have a middle ground here and current proposals are the best both parties could get out of the subject. therefore, I'd urge everybody to go for it. thanks--
Termer 04:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Irpen, just a friendly reminder that WP talk pages are not a proper place for political debates, therefore unfortunately I can't respond to your opinions.-- Termer 05:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Well OK Irpen, since you insist. “Integrated territory” is a POV simply because the US, the UK etc. never recognized the integration de jure . And also it’s a POV because my grandma and my mom told me so. But let’s concentrate on what’s important here, shall we.-- Termer 05:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Pēters J. Vecrumba, how about calling the article Occupation of Latvia (1940) and the German and "2nd soviet occupation" are going to be kept in the Aftermath section? yes or no? -- Termer 05:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Well Irpen, we're driving in circles here. The fact of integration lacking the recognition of the legality we may speak of is the reason your opponents call it occupation. And there is no point to go to the round 101 with this, perhaps it would be better to move forward.-- Termer 05:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Irpen, please do not attempt to start a political debate over here again, it's not a place for that. since Latvian status within the USSR had an exact same status as any other Soviet republic is a POV and can be easily interpreted as factually incorrect statement by your opponents. If you'd like I can lay it out for you somewhere else in case necessary, what exactly are we dealing with. Or else I'd suggest sticking to the issues related to the article only and most of all, to the points that would help to bring it to a consensus on this talk page. Thanks!-- Termer 07:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I said nothing of the sort. I don't make a judgment =legal. All I am saying that any judgment of this sort is a POV while facts are just facts. Referenced judgments should be left to articles and kept out of titles. -- Irpen 20:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, since this is not going anywhere I'll just proceed and let guide myself by the WP:NPOV policies The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly and call the article according to the reached consensus Occupation of Latvia (1940). As the idea was also supported by the third parties and is the only middle ground available, that is the way to go. However, I'm not going to rush into this but take my time to let the things settle down. Regarding different interpretations of "consensus" here, as far as I'm concerned, it only applies to opinions that are helping to bring the article out of the gridlock. Therefore I'm going to dismiss any statements that refer to only one POV regarding the subject (1944-1991) or the title of this article. Thanks!-- Termer 21:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi Pēters J. Vecrumba. it seems you're not getting it. Not to worry, it took me a while as well to get it what is it exactly Irpen has been after. I hope we don't have to go over it once again as it's all covered above. The only thing that would be good to point out once more perhaps, Irpen has asked not to include the "occupation" for the period (1944-91) in the title of the article in order to keep it NPOV. I say it is fair enough and thats what we're going to do.-- Termer 16:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, Alexia Death the Grey Please read the talk page up here. Nobody is saying that the second part of occupation is not an occupation. The only thing thats been said, it should be avoided in a title simply because there are other POV-s regarding the era. The other point, the way a nation writes its own history is very clear. The most common way choosing titles in conventional national history textbooks regarding the subject is the way I've written Estonia in World War II. The other thing is that WP is not a national encyclopedia, therefore the point was not even relevant.
Now, you as the one responsible for changing the title here that BTW, is not currently in sync with the content at all any more. Therefore if you need to, please go back to Occupations of Latvia article and attempt to revert it according to your opinions. This one here was created according to the points already underlined above and at Talk:Occupations_of_Latvia as an article about Occupation of Latvia in 1940. Therefore I have no idea why exactly did you feel it was necessary to change the title so that it doesn't make any sense regards to the content. Further on, please do not attempt to revert or rename this article again once the title has been restored according to the content. Thanks-- Termer 21:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but this article is not meant to be a repository for a list of all possible occupations including ones not even remotely related. Japan???? What is appropriate would be Baltic/Estonian/Lithuanian occupations, that's it. I'm sure there's some more appropriate list of occupations somewhere. Wasn't this already deleted once or was that in another article? — PētersV ( talk) 03:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
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This article should be moved to Soviet occupation of Latvia. We don't need the "in 1940" in the title, and it's wrong - the article discusses post-1940 period as well. I hope this is not controversial... barring any objections, I'll move this article in a few days. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
well, make sure u read "title & scope" above b 4 removing stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.56.102.102 ( talk) 18:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
The section on Soviet terror is quite dubious and only cites 2-3 sources, when its over 4 paragraphs long. This needs work. Please be civil if I attempt to make the language less POV, in the near future. I won't delete unsourced material, I'll leave that for discussion. But the language in the article, especially this part, is quite POV and I might work on it in the near future is there isnt any convincing opposition. ValenShephard 09:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ValenShephard ( talk • contribs)
The photo of the three military commanders bears a controversial comment: "Common parade of Wehrmacht and Red Army in Brest at the end of the Invasion of Poland. At the center Major General Heinz Guderian and Brigadier Semyon Krivoshein". It cannot even be confirmed, that this is the city of Brest. Also, there can be seen NO military parade - what the photo claims to depict. I would also like to point out that the film "The Soviet Story" is highly controversial and shown to be wrong on numerous occasions and for that reason can be not used as a source of information. So, if a valid source is not provided, I request this photo to be renamed to something more adequate, like "Meeting of German and Soviet military commanders". In fact, I am going to change the description, anyone is welcome to roll the change back when they are ready to provide a valid source.
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The appropriate title for Soviet re-occupation is re-occupation, not the Latvian SSR. Do not POV-vandalize the section title again. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 15:34, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
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The beginning sentences of
"The occupation took place according to the European Court of Human Rights, the Government of Latvia, the United States Department of State, and the European Union."
is quite confusing in what it's trying to convey. Is it supposed to mean that those groups simply acknowledged the fact that an occupation happened or is it trying to say the occupation followed all the the laws and rules that those groups put out? If it's the first then there should also be added a sentence about groups who deny the occupation, likely the USSR, if it is the latter then it should be made more obvious that those groups are attempting to condone the action. This is especially confusing since the EU didn't even exist at the time of the invasion. EnzoTC ( talk) 15:31, 25 February 2022 (UTC)