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I am listing a few options for the title here, and invite everyone to add to it as you see fit (each option includes related variations). Maybe we can find whatever is least objectionable to the most people. Maurreen 06:31, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to rearrange things just a little to make the discussion more orderly. I hope nobody minds and that you see my intent. If no, I won't object if you change it back. Maurreen 16:27, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that we just give short comments on the options, to see where we might have the most overlap. Maurreen 06:31, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
hello sorry if im writing in wrong place, but i'd like to know more about may 1, 2003 sumon in London. I know that there were 12 countries, but what countries? I know that they expressed their support for the U.S. (war in Iraq), but i need more info. can you help me?
Maurreen, thanks for making these suggestions. How about:
When I started the section on title options, I was unsure whether it's better to structure the comments by dividing them according to the title options or dividing by according to the views of different individuals. I am still unsure.
But just for clarification, so far my view is this:
I keeping hearing about NPOV. Why not call it Liberarion of Iraq, which is what the Kurds do. Tannim 15:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Rama, regarding a point you made above about the Geneva and Hague conventions, here's an article showing the kind of thing that worries me, and why I feel we need to make it clear that there is an occupation going on [1] SlimVirgin 10:40, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Geneva Convention (IV) of 1949 and the Hague Convention (IV) of 1907 are not the same thing. The applicable law for a definition of occupation is Hague, article 42. Read this UK parliament paper [2] starting page 19 - the territory need only be under the control of foreign forces, and not necessarily all of the territory, for it to count as an occupation in law. Also here [3]. It is an anti-war POV but it's a good factual and legal analysis.
To become familiar with the applicable international laws, see here:
SlimVirgin 17:43, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
This talk page is about twice the suggested maximum. Does anyone have any thoughts on splitting it or archiving part? Maurreen 18:07, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
A few queries:
1) I would have edited this sentence, but I couldn't see exactly what the author was saying:
(2) Same with this:
(a) Does the author have a source for Fallujah having been occupied by al-Qaeda? And (b) I'm not sure what "an openly marked al-Qaeda headquarters before the invasion" means.
(3) Why was this quote deleted? "Under International Humanitarian Law (IHL), occupation is the "factual control over a territory or a population." It is true, referenced, and relevant. SlimVirgin 01:31, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Gulo. I've been having problems loading all day, so I probably did look at an old version. I've done a copy edit down to UN resolutions but I'm tired so I'm going to stop in case I start editing in mistakes, and will continue tomorrow. I restored the quote from the IHL research group because it's better to have a quote with an issue like that. It's not a question of NPOV/POV, because the situation does apply to Iraq, as a matter of law, as the long quote makes clear, and as all the govts have acknowledged: this brings with it certain obligations to the civilian population. It's important to grasp this because a lot rests on it. For example, the very high death count obtained by the Lancet was based on the Hague convention obligations e.g. the obligation to maintain good water supplies and so on, and the Lancet therefore counted deaths due to these preventable causes as deaths due to the occupation, which many observers objected to.
The prisoner-abuse convictions need updating as there has been a British court martial; I'll try to find time tomorrow to look up the details; and there was the British plane that was downed, allegedly by insurgents, which should probably be mentioned too. Hopefully Wikipedia will be back to normal speed tomorrow. SlimVirgin 04:36, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
Also to update: Fullah section. SlimVirgin 04:17, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
I have a question about the archives. There's one post in archive 1; 2 and 3 have the dates all mixed up; and at a glance (though I haven't yet gone through the history to check), I'd say there were posts missing. Does anyone know what happened? SlimVirgin 23:25, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
I found this excellent post from Gulo in the archives, which I'm reproducing below, because it's still relevant, though I don't know whether Gulo supported or opposed the name change. SlimVirgin 23:25, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
There is an occupation when:
When does occupation end?
Occupation ends whenever one of the conditions of occupation is no longer met.
1. The international armed conflict has ended.
2. Foreign military forces have withdrawn from enemy territory or are no longer exerting control over the population of that territory.
In both cases:
GuloGuloGulo 20:07, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
What is "Protocol I"? Philip Baird Shearer 01:42, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi Silverback, I see you inserted a sentence again that I believe was removed before, or something like it. It really isn't clear what it means, so would you mind re-writing it? It says:
(a) In accordance with which standards? The preceding quote is not a "standard"; and the UN didn't recognize the interim govt in accordance with IHL definition of occupation; these are separate issues; (b) I understand "the UN . . . recognized the interim govt, but what does "recognized the interim govt re-establishing diplomatic relations mean?"; (c) "the security" (what does that mean exactly?), (d) the security was stable enough to conduct relations - I can guess what this means, but not as part of this sentence.
Also, the preceding paragraph seems to confirm that there IS still an occupation, so I wonder whether you're reading it wrong? Or perhaps I am. Best, SlimVirgin 02:47, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Here is the quote:
It seems to me they are saying it can only be called post-occupation if there is a viable, stable, and peaceful situation, as there was in postwar Germany and Japan. What makes you say the criteria have been met? Iraq is very far from being viable, stable, and peaceful. SlimVirgin 04:04, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, you've just reverted. Please don't do that. The sentence is arguably false, and in any event, is not good English. If you want to retain it, please discuss here first, and then rewrite it. Here is the sentence: "In accordance with these standards,the UN and individual nations recognized the interim government re-establishing diplomatic relations and the security was stable enough to conduct elections." SlimVirgin 04:13, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think you're trying to do original research here, Silverback. The article you pulled that quote from also says: "In all cases, the law of occupation applies until one year after the general close of military operations, and even beyond that date, basic rules continue to apply if the occupying power exercises the functions of government in the territory (see Article 6 (3) of the Fourth Geneva Convention)." It's an article arguing a certain legal position, so you have to be extremely careful about plucking certain quotes out of context. The overall piece, and indeed even the part you have quoted from, makes it clear that the occupation continues in international law. I don't know what international law would regard as the date of the closure of military operations. Our article simply needs to make clear that, according to the coalition the occupation is over, but according to this or that law, it is not. You're trying to make all sources fit your thesis, when you should be trying to present all sources in an NPOV, factual way.
Regarding the grammar, it's just not a good sentence, for the reasons I explained above. What is "the security", for example? And in accordance with which "standards." You haven't quoted any "standards," and what does the word mean in this context anyway? Do you mean law? If so, you have to say which law. etc SlimVirgin 06:50, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, then you've lost me. The article indicates that the coalition has said it's not an occupation, and that the UN appears to have recognized this. It also indicates that international law says otherwise. Fine. Agreed. But I'm wondering what your new sentence adds, and what it means. Could you rewrite it at least so it's clearer? SlimVirgin 07:04, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
"Tens of thousands of private security personnel supplemented the military forces." Prior to this sentence were mentioned foreign forces; is this by contrast meant to refer to native Iraqi personnel? If so, for clarity, it should say something such as "native Iraqi private security...". If not, it should say what nationality they represent, or if they are a mix of foreign forces, at least it should say "foreign". By the way, if they're foreign, it sounds like a euphemism for mercenaries -- I have no idea what the wikipedia policy on euphemisms is, but I don't see them much, so I'm guessing it is more common to speak plainly and avoid the euphemisms?
Just a heads up, I have changed the article to consistently use "insurgent" and "insurgency" (or in some cases "guerilla", if that is more appropriate). This is a fairly significant edit that may make some people unhappy. Per the vote to move Iraqi resistance to Iraqi insurgency, insurgency is the preferred term in most cases. The pros and cons of each term were extensively discussed there. ObsidianOrder 03:37, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Page moved to new title "Bush occupation of Iraq, 2003-2005" analogous with " Nazi occupation of Norway". Wikipedia needs to treat all countries in the same way. If you disagree with titles like "Nazi occupation", "Zionist occupation", "Republican occupation"/"Bush occupation", please voice your opinion. Courage 20:50, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't this also violate the NPOV rule?-- Kross June 30, 2005 06:22 (UTC)
I highly dispute your sources stating that U.S. soldiers have fired on ambulances which are supposedly backed by "eyewitness" accounts. These sources frequently exaggerate U.S. and civilian casualties and show no neutrality on the war. I suspect source number 43 is a joke. It claims that 27 American soldiers have been kidnapped but that of course no major news organizations have reported it. The website hears this from I quote "name best not to supply without permission". Also, this is what the website urges it's readers to do:
What to Do
This is an appeal to the anti-war movement, to the peace movement, eco-action movement, animal rights movement, anti-fascists, everybody active, everybody who can respond, can call a demo, can organise a protest, an office occupation, an embassy storming, a road blockade, mass civil disobedience, industrial shut-down, work-place occupation, solidarity work stoppage, blockade the US Embassy, Fairford Military Base action campaign – what’s taking off at Fairford? Are B52s being deployed? Shannon Peace Camp protestors – are there new movements at Shannon? We need to address this, we need to resist this. We become the solidarity resistance in Iraq by taking action in our neighbourhoods and in our cities. Print up a leaflet. Paint up a banner. Take to the streets. Only a small group can make a change. Show people in Iraq that we are standing by them. 700 more British troops have been flown in to quell the uprising in the South. No Pasaran. Take to the embassies, the bases, the US interests, the streets.
The website then lists the addresses of U.S. embassies and air bases in the U.K. But the most important similarity of all these websites is that none of them ever claim to have seen an ambulance being shot at by U.S. troops. They hear this through random Iraqis they meet on the street. There is a picture of a shot up ambulance but absolutely no proof of who shot at it. Thus, these sources are not eyewitnesses. These claims are immeasurably hurtful to the United States and should be backed with large amounts of physical evidence and eyewitness accounts. It should be rembered that extraordinary claims require extraordinay proof. This particular sentence should be removed immediately or backed up by actual evidence. IndieJones 01:01, 2 July 2005 (UTC)
An other Proponent: <<There are better evidence_methods>>. Don't implement Links as Proofs, please. There exists for example an interview with a "GI" who confirms the killing of former Iraki-civilians in large amounts by US-platoons. Don't bother about worthless interviews as that. Instead take the coward G.W. Bush who prolonges the deadline for the Irak_constitution. Are such prolongations possible ? The integral unity of Irak is favoritism for ExxonTexaco and all the other US.-oil-robbers. They are too late now.
Does anyone else think that years should be added to the dates? For example in the Armed opposition section, it isn't always clear whether events take place in 2004, 2005, etc. 17:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
This and other articles on the Iraq war seem more like an attempt at a "monument" to satisfy both sides of issue - pro-war, anti-war - rather than an informative Encyclopaedia article. Also, the confrontation between the sides is obvious in almost every sentence. I seriously doubt if anyone unfamiliar with issue, after reading the article, will leave without getting seriously confused or frustrated. I don't think this is right for an Encyclopaedia.
A reference was removed without explanation. It has been re-added, as it was used to add content to the article on July 28, 2005. Per Wikipedia policy, a reference must be provided when information is "gleaned from an external souce." As that is the case here, to remove the reference would put the article in copyright violation. Uriah923 17:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The content added from the ON reference remains in this article, but the reference has been removed. This action is disputed and a conversation is ongoing here. Uriah923 06:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Or it is hidden so well that I couldn't find it in 10 minutes of reading this article. I am reffering to Iraqis attititude and opinions towards the war and reconstruction efforts. Do they support it or not? Were there any surveys conducted? Sources, please. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
i see there's a worry about the length of the article, and cutting it off at 2005 would be a lazy solution to this, but sure it would make more epistemological sense to change the name to have 2006 in the title and find other ways of splitting off sections into specialised articles. Boud 00:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree, we need to update the name of this article to include 2006. With the way things are going, we'll need to do the same thing in 2007, so cutting it off doesn't make much sense.
Czolgolz 16:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Please stop deleting the link to the "arguments against an early withdrawl" or somethign like that. It smacks of POV pushing, regardless of whether that's the original intent. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint, and consistently reverting others edits to keep it off the page is not good form.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire! 23:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the blog (you got the other one) link, 1 link to a personal page, 2 404 errors, an extremist website, all as per WP:CITE. Currently the "mission" link takes you to a "server down" website, though that may be temporary, and the CSIS link redirects to the main site, not the actual pdf. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 01:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Uhm, actually the original reason I deleted that link was simply that links to that particular weblog were spammed across a number of pages, in what clearly seemed to be an attempt at Search engine optimization. Just out of curiosity, would you mind pointing out the part of WP:CITE that says we aren't allowed to link blogs? AlistairMcMillan 01:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
WP:CITE, under "What is a reliable source", actually I think its right above or below it somewhere. I'll copy the relevant part in one second. As for the spamming, well I don't know much about that. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 02:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Doh, not WP:CITE,
WP:RS is what I meant.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire! 02:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
"Personal websites and blogs may never be used as secondary sources. That is, they may never be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website."-
WP:RS
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire! 02:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/products-docex.htm
Shouldn't this page be called by its proper name," Operation Iraqi Freedom"?
There is a poll going on at the Iraq War article that is related to this article. You can add your vote here: [8] -- Mr. Tibbs 23:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if or where this would go, but according to the Washington Post, al-Qaeda in Iraq and other related groups have declared a new republic in parts of Iraq. zafiroblue05 | Talk 23:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
i hate them. hard to read; off-topic. in short, unencyclopedic. Please divide and expand. -PPWWSGR
Okay, the recent (December 10) renaming of this article from "2003-2006" to "2003-present" seems to have brought to a head the major problem with this article, which is that it's too open-ended and just too big. At what point does the "post-invasion" period of Iraqi history end? When the last U.S. troops pull out? That could be decades from now, and at the very least several more years. Or is it never, since of course Iraq from now on will always be "post-invasion"? Then again, even if the "post-invasion" period by everyone's agreement ended tomorrow, the article is already too large.
Which is why I suggest breaking up this article chronologically, and further offer a breakup schema: turn it into two articles, "Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–2005, and "Post-invasion Iraq, 2006–present". Why split it there? I can think of a few reasons:
So, this is really two questions: do people think the article should be broken up? And if so, how should it be done? Yaron K. 05:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
It says 21 nations have forces in Iraq, and goes on to list 22, so something needs to change; this includes Bosnia and Herzegovina as a nation, which I'm fairly sure is defunct, so is it just Bosnia? or both? that would make 23 nations. I also think this number shnould include Fiji - is there a specific reason it doesnt? 88.109.49.215 03:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the US detention of the staff of the Iranian consulate in Irbil is worth a section? To me the attack on the consulate is pretty heavy stuff, the Iranians may not be accredited diplomats (ie they may not have diplomatic immunity) but they are nonetheless representatives of their country. This seems to be an important escalation. Check out [9] 216.191.239.82 18:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone put this stat: "When asked directly, 82–87% of the Iraqi populace is opposed to US occupation and want US troops to leave. 47% of Iraqis support attacking US troops" on the criticisms of the Iraq War page. I didn't think it belonged, and wanted to move it to a more appropriate place. I thought there might be a page on Iraqi public opinion, but I couldn't find one. I also don't see any specific discussion of Iraqi public opinion in this article. Is there a place where this information is contained that I am missing? Is a new page warranted? Any comments are welcome. -- Mackabean 23:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we put an Infobox Military Conflict here? Kermanshahi 08:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
In accordance with Wikipedia policies I removed this section since it has no references:
I changed it to this:
As there is no 2007 information in this article, I'm moving it to Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2006. When the 2007 information in included from, e.g., Iraq War, please move it back. ↠Ben B4 05:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This article could use an update.
This article is a strong B-class article. I would suggest submitting it for a peer review and then to an A-class review at WP:MILHIST. After passing through those two forums, it should stand a much better chance at passing FAC. Cla68 07:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
The re-titling debate didn't seem to finish, I hope no-one minds me trying to breathe life into it again here.
FWIW I don't think there's a problem with having a long title - it's a natural consequence of trying to carve up all the world's knowledge into article-sized pieces. As someone else suggested, "Mission accomplished" and the swearing-in of the first elected officials in 2006 provide natural boundary points. — ciphergoth 15:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This seems important enough to at least mention briefly in the article. From Democracy Now!, June 5, 2008: [10]
“ | Revealed: Secret Plan to Keep Iraq Under US Control
The Independent of London is reporting a secret deal is being negotiated in Baghdad that would perpetuate the US military occupation of Iraq indefinitely, regardless of the outcome of the presidential election in November. Patrick Cockburn reports the deal would allow the US to keep fifty military bases and give legal immunity for US troops and contractors. American negotiators are also demanding the right to carry out arrests, control Iraq’s airspace and conduct military activities in Iraq without consulting the Baghdad government. Critics in Iraq say the plan will destabilize Iraq’s position in the Middle East and lay the basis for unending conflict in their country. The Independent reports President Bush is determined to force the Iraqi government to sign the so-called “strategic alliance,†without modifications, by the end of next month. |
†|
Badagnani ( talk) 09:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Original story, with more details, here. Badagnani ( talk) 09:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the man who has said this, but in the article, Patrick Cockburn delineates one source. An Iraqi source is listed, and if that source was given identity, then I would be able to check if it was paraphrased, but the fact the source isn't identified doesn't meet the standards of WP:RS, I'm afraid.-- Cymbelmineer ( talk) 14:42, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 23:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the out of date section of coalition countries who have withdrawn and replaced it with a list of remaining countries, as the referenced article on multinational force in Iraq is much more up to date and clearly written. Comments? Czolgolz ( talk) 14:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the discussions at the top, I support this page should be reanamed as Coaltion occupation of Iraq, very clear title and avoid adding the date. 207.233.67.8 ( talk) 18:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is the introduction and first paragraph of the first section crossed out? -- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 07:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
This is a phase of the war. Since in article Iraq War, it says the war is over on Aug 19 2010 with the last US combat troops leaving the country. We should rename this article to as Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–2010. Qajar ( talk) 18:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
What are the two pictures of US troops and equipment doing at the start of the article? They look more like some kind of Hi, Mom! postcards. I do not think they add any value to this article. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 11:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 19:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I am raising this issue here because Talk:U.S. occupation of Iraq redirects to this discussion page.
After seeing this edit to the List of sovereign states by date of formation article, I took a look at the Military occupation article, the lead sentence of which says that military occupation occurs when the control and authority over a territory passes to a hostile army.
It seems to me that the presence of the redirect is a POV problem, and a confusing one at that. I suggest that the redirected be removed. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:43, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
This article should either be renamed to Military occupation of Iraq (2003-2011) or if a similar article already exists on this information relevant new material should be moved from this article to that one. The infobox is totally unacceptable "Republic of Iraq (US occupation)" is not an official name - we have an article on the brief period where Iraq did not have a sovereign government - that is the article on the Coalition Provisional Authority that existed from 2003 to 2004. It is true that the CPA was effectively a client government of the United States due to the dominance of US officials in the CPA, but the occupation of Iraq was not just a "US occupation", there was a large presence of British military forces and other countries' military forces. After 2004, Iraq was a legally recognized sovereign state with self-government. The departure of the coalition has been a long process, and the literal movement of the last foot of the the last American soldier off of Iraqi soil into an aircraft or boat in 2011 does not make that big of a difference to Iraq's assertion of de facto sovereignty that has been growing over the past few years, as exemplified by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's friendly diplomacy with Iran that was looked down upon by the United States, as well as al-Maliki being one of the leaders who pressured the US to remove its troops from Iraq in the first place.-- R-41 ( talk) 03:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Surely the date of the occupation should be until 2004 when the Iraq interim government was installed. As the definition of a military occupation is when the control and authority over a territory passes to a hostile army. The coalition did not have authority from 2004 onwards. On the list of military occupations Wikipedia page the occupation of Iraq by coalition date is 2003-2004. Also see United Nations Security Council Resolution 1546.
Ctrl + F "Cost," 0 hits. Stay classy Wikipedia. -- 75.128.245.7 ( talk) 14:23, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1546. The date of occupation should be changed 2003-2004. The occupation ends when the iraqi interim government is established. How did the US occupy iraq in 2011 for instance when they had less than 100,000 troops and they were fighting alongside 800,000 iraqi security forces. Did the UK occupy France in 1940 just because they had troops there. Change the title to history of Iraq 2003-2011. Also the US did not occupy the country from 2003-2004 the coalition did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.215.191 ( talk) 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Where are the information about the war crimes?? — Allrounder ( talk) 15:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
From a semantic perspective, I can see why American occupation of Iraq was not appropriate (there was even a formal debate on whether this redirect should be retained). However, the article was given a new name which the present content makes no pretence of addressing as the complete treatment that "history of" normally implies. The problem with the present title became painfully clear in my efforts to extend and broaden the lead. What we have here presently is History of Iraq as mainly covered by international media during the American troop deployment in Iraq following the Iraq invasion of 2003. It would be much easier to shape the lead based on the existing content for my proposed title than the title the article presently has. To others asking where are the war crimes, where is the economic coverage etc., this is the root problem. — MaxEnt 14:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
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I am listing a few options for the title here, and invite everyone to add to it as you see fit (each option includes related variations). Maybe we can find whatever is least objectionable to the most people. Maurreen 06:31, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to rearrange things just a little to make the discussion more orderly. I hope nobody minds and that you see my intent. If no, I won't object if you change it back. Maurreen 16:27, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that we just give short comments on the options, to see where we might have the most overlap. Maurreen 06:31, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
hello sorry if im writing in wrong place, but i'd like to know more about may 1, 2003 sumon in London. I know that there were 12 countries, but what countries? I know that they expressed their support for the U.S. (war in Iraq), but i need more info. can you help me?
Maurreen, thanks for making these suggestions. How about:
When I started the section on title options, I was unsure whether it's better to structure the comments by dividing them according to the title options or dividing by according to the views of different individuals. I am still unsure.
But just for clarification, so far my view is this:
I keeping hearing about NPOV. Why not call it Liberarion of Iraq, which is what the Kurds do. Tannim 15:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Rama, regarding a point you made above about the Geneva and Hague conventions, here's an article showing the kind of thing that worries me, and why I feel we need to make it clear that there is an occupation going on [1] SlimVirgin 10:40, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
The Geneva Convention (IV) of 1949 and the Hague Convention (IV) of 1907 are not the same thing. The applicable law for a definition of occupation is Hague, article 42. Read this UK parliament paper [2] starting page 19 - the territory need only be under the control of foreign forces, and not necessarily all of the territory, for it to count as an occupation in law. Also here [3]. It is an anti-war POV but it's a good factual and legal analysis.
To become familiar with the applicable international laws, see here:
SlimVirgin 17:43, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
This talk page is about twice the suggested maximum. Does anyone have any thoughts on splitting it or archiving part? Maurreen 18:07, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
A few queries:
1) I would have edited this sentence, but I couldn't see exactly what the author was saying:
(2) Same with this:
(a) Does the author have a source for Fallujah having been occupied by al-Qaeda? And (b) I'm not sure what "an openly marked al-Qaeda headquarters before the invasion" means.
(3) Why was this quote deleted? "Under International Humanitarian Law (IHL), occupation is the "factual control over a territory or a population." It is true, referenced, and relevant. SlimVirgin 01:31, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Gulo. I've been having problems loading all day, so I probably did look at an old version. I've done a copy edit down to UN resolutions but I'm tired so I'm going to stop in case I start editing in mistakes, and will continue tomorrow. I restored the quote from the IHL research group because it's better to have a quote with an issue like that. It's not a question of NPOV/POV, because the situation does apply to Iraq, as a matter of law, as the long quote makes clear, and as all the govts have acknowledged: this brings with it certain obligations to the civilian population. It's important to grasp this because a lot rests on it. For example, the very high death count obtained by the Lancet was based on the Hague convention obligations e.g. the obligation to maintain good water supplies and so on, and the Lancet therefore counted deaths due to these preventable causes as deaths due to the occupation, which many observers objected to.
The prisoner-abuse convictions need updating as there has been a British court martial; I'll try to find time tomorrow to look up the details; and there was the British plane that was downed, allegedly by insurgents, which should probably be mentioned too. Hopefully Wikipedia will be back to normal speed tomorrow. SlimVirgin 04:36, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
Also to update: Fullah section. SlimVirgin 04:17, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)
I have a question about the archives. There's one post in archive 1; 2 and 3 have the dates all mixed up; and at a glance (though I haven't yet gone through the history to check), I'd say there were posts missing. Does anyone know what happened? SlimVirgin 23:25, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
I found this excellent post from Gulo in the archives, which I'm reproducing below, because it's still relevant, though I don't know whether Gulo supported or opposed the name change. SlimVirgin 23:25, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)
There is an occupation when:
When does occupation end?
Occupation ends whenever one of the conditions of occupation is no longer met.
1. The international armed conflict has ended.
2. Foreign military forces have withdrawn from enemy territory or are no longer exerting control over the population of that territory.
In both cases:
GuloGuloGulo 20:07, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
What is "Protocol I"? Philip Baird Shearer 01:42, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi Silverback, I see you inserted a sentence again that I believe was removed before, or something like it. It really isn't clear what it means, so would you mind re-writing it? It says:
(a) In accordance with which standards? The preceding quote is not a "standard"; and the UN didn't recognize the interim govt in accordance with IHL definition of occupation; these are separate issues; (b) I understand "the UN . . . recognized the interim govt, but what does "recognized the interim govt re-establishing diplomatic relations mean?"; (c) "the security" (what does that mean exactly?), (d) the security was stable enough to conduct relations - I can guess what this means, but not as part of this sentence.
Also, the preceding paragraph seems to confirm that there IS still an occupation, so I wonder whether you're reading it wrong? Or perhaps I am. Best, SlimVirgin 02:47, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Here is the quote:
It seems to me they are saying it can only be called post-occupation if there is a viable, stable, and peaceful situation, as there was in postwar Germany and Japan. What makes you say the criteria have been met? Iraq is very far from being viable, stable, and peaceful. SlimVirgin 04:04, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Silverback, you've just reverted. Please don't do that. The sentence is arguably false, and in any event, is not good English. If you want to retain it, please discuss here first, and then rewrite it. Here is the sentence: "In accordance with these standards,the UN and individual nations recognized the interim government re-establishing diplomatic relations and the security was stable enough to conduct elections." SlimVirgin 04:13, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I think you're trying to do original research here, Silverback. The article you pulled that quote from also says: "In all cases, the law of occupation applies until one year after the general close of military operations, and even beyond that date, basic rules continue to apply if the occupying power exercises the functions of government in the territory (see Article 6 (3) of the Fourth Geneva Convention)." It's an article arguing a certain legal position, so you have to be extremely careful about plucking certain quotes out of context. The overall piece, and indeed even the part you have quoted from, makes it clear that the occupation continues in international law. I don't know what international law would regard as the date of the closure of military operations. Our article simply needs to make clear that, according to the coalition the occupation is over, but according to this or that law, it is not. You're trying to make all sources fit your thesis, when you should be trying to present all sources in an NPOV, factual way.
Regarding the grammar, it's just not a good sentence, for the reasons I explained above. What is "the security", for example? And in accordance with which "standards." You haven't quoted any "standards," and what does the word mean in this context anyway? Do you mean law? If so, you have to say which law. etc SlimVirgin 06:50, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, then you've lost me. The article indicates that the coalition has said it's not an occupation, and that the UN appears to have recognized this. It also indicates that international law says otherwise. Fine. Agreed. But I'm wondering what your new sentence adds, and what it means. Could you rewrite it at least so it's clearer? SlimVirgin 07:04, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
"Tens of thousands of private security personnel supplemented the military forces." Prior to this sentence were mentioned foreign forces; is this by contrast meant to refer to native Iraqi personnel? If so, for clarity, it should say something such as "native Iraqi private security...". If not, it should say what nationality they represent, or if they are a mix of foreign forces, at least it should say "foreign". By the way, if they're foreign, it sounds like a euphemism for mercenaries -- I have no idea what the wikipedia policy on euphemisms is, but I don't see them much, so I'm guessing it is more common to speak plainly and avoid the euphemisms?
Just a heads up, I have changed the article to consistently use "insurgent" and "insurgency" (or in some cases "guerilla", if that is more appropriate). This is a fairly significant edit that may make some people unhappy. Per the vote to move Iraqi resistance to Iraqi insurgency, insurgency is the preferred term in most cases. The pros and cons of each term were extensively discussed there. ObsidianOrder 03:37, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Page moved to new title "Bush occupation of Iraq, 2003-2005" analogous with " Nazi occupation of Norway". Wikipedia needs to treat all countries in the same way. If you disagree with titles like "Nazi occupation", "Zionist occupation", "Republican occupation"/"Bush occupation", please voice your opinion. Courage 20:50, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't this also violate the NPOV rule?-- Kross June 30, 2005 06:22 (UTC)
I highly dispute your sources stating that U.S. soldiers have fired on ambulances which are supposedly backed by "eyewitness" accounts. These sources frequently exaggerate U.S. and civilian casualties and show no neutrality on the war. I suspect source number 43 is a joke. It claims that 27 American soldiers have been kidnapped but that of course no major news organizations have reported it. The website hears this from I quote "name best not to supply without permission". Also, this is what the website urges it's readers to do:
What to Do
This is an appeal to the anti-war movement, to the peace movement, eco-action movement, animal rights movement, anti-fascists, everybody active, everybody who can respond, can call a demo, can organise a protest, an office occupation, an embassy storming, a road blockade, mass civil disobedience, industrial shut-down, work-place occupation, solidarity work stoppage, blockade the US Embassy, Fairford Military Base action campaign – what’s taking off at Fairford? Are B52s being deployed? Shannon Peace Camp protestors – are there new movements at Shannon? We need to address this, we need to resist this. We become the solidarity resistance in Iraq by taking action in our neighbourhoods and in our cities. Print up a leaflet. Paint up a banner. Take to the streets. Only a small group can make a change. Show people in Iraq that we are standing by them. 700 more British troops have been flown in to quell the uprising in the South. No Pasaran. Take to the embassies, the bases, the US interests, the streets.
The website then lists the addresses of U.S. embassies and air bases in the U.K. But the most important similarity of all these websites is that none of them ever claim to have seen an ambulance being shot at by U.S. troops. They hear this through random Iraqis they meet on the street. There is a picture of a shot up ambulance but absolutely no proof of who shot at it. Thus, these sources are not eyewitnesses. These claims are immeasurably hurtful to the United States and should be backed with large amounts of physical evidence and eyewitness accounts. It should be rembered that extraordinary claims require extraordinay proof. This particular sentence should be removed immediately or backed up by actual evidence. IndieJones 01:01, 2 July 2005 (UTC)
An other Proponent: <<There are better evidence_methods>>. Don't implement Links as Proofs, please. There exists for example an interview with a "GI" who confirms the killing of former Iraki-civilians in large amounts by US-platoons. Don't bother about worthless interviews as that. Instead take the coward G.W. Bush who prolonges the deadline for the Irak_constitution. Are such prolongations possible ? The integral unity of Irak is favoritism for ExxonTexaco and all the other US.-oil-robbers. They are too late now.
Does anyone else think that years should be added to the dates? For example in the Armed opposition section, it isn't always clear whether events take place in 2004, 2005, etc. 17:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
This and other articles on the Iraq war seem more like an attempt at a "monument" to satisfy both sides of issue - pro-war, anti-war - rather than an informative Encyclopaedia article. Also, the confrontation between the sides is obvious in almost every sentence. I seriously doubt if anyone unfamiliar with issue, after reading the article, will leave without getting seriously confused or frustrated. I don't think this is right for an Encyclopaedia.
A reference was removed without explanation. It has been re-added, as it was used to add content to the article on July 28, 2005. Per Wikipedia policy, a reference must be provided when information is "gleaned from an external souce." As that is the case here, to remove the reference would put the article in copyright violation. Uriah923 17:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The content added from the ON reference remains in this article, but the reference has been removed. This action is disputed and a conversation is ongoing here. Uriah923 06:21, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Or it is hidden so well that I couldn't find it in 10 minutes of reading this article. I am reffering to Iraqis attititude and opinions towards the war and reconstruction efforts. Do they support it or not? Were there any surveys conducted? Sources, please. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
i see there's a worry about the length of the article, and cutting it off at 2005 would be a lazy solution to this, but sure it would make more epistemological sense to change the name to have 2006 in the title and find other ways of splitting off sections into specialised articles. Boud 00:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree, we need to update the name of this article to include 2006. With the way things are going, we'll need to do the same thing in 2007, so cutting it off doesn't make much sense.
Czolgolz 16:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Please stop deleting the link to the "arguments against an early withdrawl" or somethign like that. It smacks of POV pushing, regardless of whether that's the original intent. It's a perfectly valid viewpoint, and consistently reverting others edits to keep it off the page is not good form.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire! 23:16, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the blog (you got the other one) link, 1 link to a personal page, 2 404 errors, an extremist website, all as per WP:CITE. Currently the "mission" link takes you to a "server down" website, though that may be temporary, and the CSIS link redirects to the main site, not the actual pdf. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 01:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Uhm, actually the original reason I deleted that link was simply that links to that particular weblog were spammed across a number of pages, in what clearly seemed to be an attempt at Search engine optimization. Just out of curiosity, would you mind pointing out the part of WP:CITE that says we aren't allowed to link blogs? AlistairMcMillan 01:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
WP:CITE, under "What is a reliable source", actually I think its right above or below it somewhere. I'll copy the relevant part in one second. As for the spamming, well I don't know much about that. ⇒ SWATJester Ready Aim Fire! 02:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Doh, not WP:CITE,
WP:RS is what I meant.
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire! 02:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
"Personal websites and blogs may never be used as secondary sources. That is, they may never be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website."-
WP:RS
⇒
SWATJester
Ready
Aim
Fire! 02:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/products-docex.htm
Shouldn't this page be called by its proper name," Operation Iraqi Freedom"?
There is a poll going on at the Iraq War article that is related to this article. You can add your vote here: [8] -- Mr. Tibbs 23:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if or where this would go, but according to the Washington Post, al-Qaeda in Iraq and other related groups have declared a new republic in parts of Iraq. zafiroblue05 | Talk 23:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
i hate them. hard to read; off-topic. in short, unencyclopedic. Please divide and expand. -PPWWSGR
Okay, the recent (December 10) renaming of this article from "2003-2006" to "2003-present" seems to have brought to a head the major problem with this article, which is that it's too open-ended and just too big. At what point does the "post-invasion" period of Iraqi history end? When the last U.S. troops pull out? That could be decades from now, and at the very least several more years. Or is it never, since of course Iraq from now on will always be "post-invasion"? Then again, even if the "post-invasion" period by everyone's agreement ended tomorrow, the article is already too large.
Which is why I suggest breaking up this article chronologically, and further offer a breakup schema: turn it into two articles, "Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–2005, and "Post-invasion Iraq, 2006–present". Why split it there? I can think of a few reasons:
So, this is really two questions: do people think the article should be broken up? And if so, how should it be done? Yaron K. 05:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
It says 21 nations have forces in Iraq, and goes on to list 22, so something needs to change; this includes Bosnia and Herzegovina as a nation, which I'm fairly sure is defunct, so is it just Bosnia? or both? that would make 23 nations. I also think this number shnould include Fiji - is there a specific reason it doesnt? 88.109.49.215 03:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that the US detention of the staff of the Iranian consulate in Irbil is worth a section? To me the attack on the consulate is pretty heavy stuff, the Iranians may not be accredited diplomats (ie they may not have diplomatic immunity) but they are nonetheless representatives of their country. This seems to be an important escalation. Check out [9] 216.191.239.82 18:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Someone put this stat: "When asked directly, 82–87% of the Iraqi populace is opposed to US occupation and want US troops to leave. 47% of Iraqis support attacking US troops" on the criticisms of the Iraq War page. I didn't think it belonged, and wanted to move it to a more appropriate place. I thought there might be a page on Iraqi public opinion, but I couldn't find one. I also don't see any specific discussion of Iraqi public opinion in this article. Is there a place where this information is contained that I am missing? Is a new page warranted? Any comments are welcome. -- Mackabean 23:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we put an Infobox Military Conflict here? Kermanshahi 08:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
In accordance with Wikipedia policies I removed this section since it has no references:
I changed it to this:
As there is no 2007 information in this article, I'm moving it to Post-invasion Iraq, 2003-2006. When the 2007 information in included from, e.g., Iraq War, please move it back. ↠Ben B4 05:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
This article could use an update.
This article is a strong B-class article. I would suggest submitting it for a peer review and then to an A-class review at WP:MILHIST. After passing through those two forums, it should stand a much better chance at passing FAC. Cla68 07:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
The re-titling debate didn't seem to finish, I hope no-one minds me trying to breathe life into it again here.
FWIW I don't think there's a problem with having a long title - it's a natural consequence of trying to carve up all the world's knowledge into article-sized pieces. As someone else suggested, "Mission accomplished" and the swearing-in of the first elected officials in 2006 provide natural boundary points. — ciphergoth 15:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This seems important enough to at least mention briefly in the article. From Democracy Now!, June 5, 2008: [10]
“ | Revealed: Secret Plan to Keep Iraq Under US Control
The Independent of London is reporting a secret deal is being negotiated in Baghdad that would perpetuate the US military occupation of Iraq indefinitely, regardless of the outcome of the presidential election in November. Patrick Cockburn reports the deal would allow the US to keep fifty military bases and give legal immunity for US troops and contractors. American negotiators are also demanding the right to carry out arrests, control Iraq’s airspace and conduct military activities in Iraq without consulting the Baghdad government. Critics in Iraq say the plan will destabilize Iraq’s position in the Middle East and lay the basis for unending conflict in their country. The Independent reports President Bush is determined to force the Iraqi government to sign the so-called “strategic alliance,†without modifications, by the end of next month. |
†|
Badagnani ( talk) 09:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Original story, with more details, here. Badagnani ( talk) 09:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the man who has said this, but in the article, Patrick Cockburn delineates one source. An Iraqi source is listed, and if that source was given identity, then I would be able to check if it was paraphrased, but the fact the source isn't identified doesn't meet the standards of WP:RS, I'm afraid.-- Cymbelmineer ( talk) 14:42, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 23:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the out of date section of coalition countries who have withdrawn and replaced it with a list of remaining countries, as the referenced article on multinational force in Iraq is much more up to date and clearly written. Comments? Czolgolz ( talk) 14:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the discussions at the top, I support this page should be reanamed as Coaltion occupation of Iraq, very clear title and avoid adding the date. 207.233.67.8 ( talk) 18:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is the introduction and first paragraph of the first section crossed out? -- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 07:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
This is a phase of the war. Since in article Iraq War, it says the war is over on Aug 19 2010 with the last US combat troops leaving the country. We should rename this article to as Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–2010. Qajar ( talk) 18:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
What are the two pictures of US troops and equipment doing at the start of the article? They look more like some kind of Hi, Mom! postcards. I do not think they add any value to this article. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 11:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. -- Mkativerata ( talk) 19:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I am raising this issue here because Talk:U.S. occupation of Iraq redirects to this discussion page.
After seeing this edit to the List of sovereign states by date of formation article, I took a look at the Military occupation article, the lead sentence of which says that military occupation occurs when the control and authority over a territory passes to a hostile army.
It seems to me that the presence of the redirect is a POV problem, and a confusing one at that. I suggest that the redirected be removed. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 14:43, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
This article should either be renamed to Military occupation of Iraq (2003-2011) or if a similar article already exists on this information relevant new material should be moved from this article to that one. The infobox is totally unacceptable "Republic of Iraq (US occupation)" is not an official name - we have an article on the brief period where Iraq did not have a sovereign government - that is the article on the Coalition Provisional Authority that existed from 2003 to 2004. It is true that the CPA was effectively a client government of the United States due to the dominance of US officials in the CPA, but the occupation of Iraq was not just a "US occupation", there was a large presence of British military forces and other countries' military forces. After 2004, Iraq was a legally recognized sovereign state with self-government. The departure of the coalition has been a long process, and the literal movement of the last foot of the the last American soldier off of Iraqi soil into an aircraft or boat in 2011 does not make that big of a difference to Iraq's assertion of de facto sovereignty that has been growing over the past few years, as exemplified by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's friendly diplomacy with Iran that was looked down upon by the United States, as well as al-Maliki being one of the leaders who pressured the US to remove its troops from Iraq in the first place.-- R-41 ( talk) 03:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Surely the date of the occupation should be until 2004 when the Iraq interim government was installed. As the definition of a military occupation is when the control and authority over a territory passes to a hostile army. The coalition did not have authority from 2004 onwards. On the list of military occupations Wikipedia page the occupation of Iraq by coalition date is 2003-2004. Also see United Nations Security Council Resolution 1546.
Ctrl + F "Cost," 0 hits. Stay classy Wikipedia. -- 75.128.245.7 ( talk) 14:23, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1546. The date of occupation should be changed 2003-2004. The occupation ends when the iraqi interim government is established. How did the US occupy iraq in 2011 for instance when they had less than 100,000 troops and they were fighting alongside 800,000 iraqi security forces. Did the UK occupy France in 1940 just because they had troops there. Change the title to history of Iraq 2003-2011. Also the US did not occupy the country from 2003-2004 the coalition did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.215.191 ( talk) 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Where are the information about the war crimes?? — Allrounder ( talk) 15:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
From a semantic perspective, I can see why American occupation of Iraq was not appropriate (there was even a formal debate on whether this redirect should be retained). However, the article was given a new name which the present content makes no pretence of addressing as the complete treatment that "history of" normally implies. The problem with the present title became painfully clear in my efforts to extend and broaden the lead. What we have here presently is History of Iraq as mainly covered by international media during the American troop deployment in Iraq following the Iraq invasion of 2003. It would be much easier to shape the lead based on the existing content for my proposed title than the title the article presently has. To others asking where are the war crimes, where is the economic coverage etc., this is the root problem. — MaxEnt 14:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
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