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Archives

Archive 1

Hi, my edits are being removed? It is well known if you eat healthy, then you get healthy. Going vegan is a very healthy way of eating to attain good health. Simple meals like rice and saty tofu and bok choi can be very healthy. Yet these edits are removed. Why? Healthy eating is a great way to get healthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:D47C:DC00:1DFF:B651:536C:4CF0 ( talk) 15:20, 8 September 2020 (UTC) reply

They are being removed because A) It is not written in a WP:NPOV tone, B) its WP:Soapboxing, and C) its not relevant to the page. LakesideMiners ^{Come Talk To Me!} 15:33, 8 September 2020 (UTC) reply

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. The reviewer has asked the COI editor to make necessary changes before submitting their request for review.

Hi, I’d like to suggest some updates and corrections. I would be most grateful if independent editors would consider these proposals given that I have a conflict of interest. I am an employee of Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, where Neal Barnard is the president. I very much appreciate your time and efforts in giving these requests your attention.

Item 1: In the Early life and education section, please replace the second sentence with the two sentences proposed below. The existing sentence’s source does not support all the facts in the sentence. The proposed new sentences are accurate, based on reliable sources, and contain relevant details which are missing in the current version.

Existing second sentence:

He received his medical training degree at George Washington University School of Medicine and completed his residency at the same institution in psychiatry, where he began to explore vegan diets. ^[1]

Suggested new sentences:

He received his medical degree at George Washington University School of Medicine in 1980. ^{[2] [3]} He also completed his residency at the same institution. ^[4]

Excerpt: One of the older sources is not available for free. I have pasted in the pertinent paragraph below.

Vancouver Sun, 26 Dec 2001:

Neal Barnard said that when he graduated from medical school at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. in 1980, almost all U.S. schools used animals.

Item 2:

In the Neal D. Barnard#Career section, please replace the first two sentences in the second paragraph, which are based on questionably reliable sources. I propose replacing these with the following two sentences that are more accurate and fully supported by better sources.

Existing sentences:

Barnard serves as an Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine. ^[5] He founded the Barnard Medical Center in 2015 as part of PCRM, and it opened in 2016 with him as president; the center provides primary care and emphasizes diet and preventive medicine. ^{[6] [7]}

Suggested new sentences:

By 2003, ^[8] Barnard was serving as an adjunct professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine, a position he still held as of April 2022. ^[9] In January 2016, ^[10] Barnard founded the Barnard Medical Center in Washington, D.C., ^[11] which provides primary care with a focus on nutrition guidance. ^[12]

Excerpt: One of the older sources is not available for free. I have pasted in the pertinent paragraph below.

Courier Journal (Louisville, KY), 21 Aug 2003, Page G1:

"When you understand that it's chemistry at work, you can stop blaming yourself and start getting on a path that really will solve the problem better than blame will," Barnard, an adjunct associate professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine, said in an interview.

Item 3: Please add a new “Research” section to this article. This will help to improve the organization and structure of the article.

Item 4: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new first paragraph about a study by Barnard concerning the relationship between diet and menstrual pain. I have provided the secondary source describing the study, as well the WP:PRIMARY citation to the study. The study has been cited 119 times according to Scopus. [1] Scopus is one of the two citation metrics databases acceptable for counting citations, according to WP:Notability (academics)#Citation metrics.

Suggested new sentences:

Barnard conducted a randomized control trial, the results of which were published in 2000, that investigated if a low-fat vegetarian diet helped reduce menstrual pain in research participants. ^[13] His study found that among participants, a low-fat vegetarian diet was associated with higher sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) concentration, and lower pain, ^[14] although a 2006 review paper by Proctor and Farquhar argued that the study’s results were not “conclusive” because there were only 33 participants in it. ^[13]

Item 5: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new second paragraph. The study discussed in the paragraph below has been [2] 264 times, according to Scopus. The sentences are sourced with two reliable peer-reviewed sources in high impact factor journals: New England Journal of Medicine and Obesity Reviews.

Suggested new sentences:

In a 2006 study on vegan diets and patients with type 2 diabetes, ^{[15] [16]} Barnard found that participants randomly selected into the vegan diet group ^[15] showed improved optimization of glycemic control and lipid control measures ^{[17] [16]} after 22 weeks compared to the control group, which instead received a diet based on American Diabetes Association guidelines. ^{[18] [19]}

Item 6: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new second paragraph about a paper Barnard published in JAMA that critiques misuse of meta-analyses in the nutrition and epidemiology field. The paper has been influential in methodology and policy discussions, evidenced in its being in the 99th percentile in Scopus citation measures.

Suggested new sentences:

In 2017, Barnard critiqued the way that meta-analyses were used in nutrition research at that time, in a paper he co-authored in JAMA. ^[20] He argued that meta-analysis techniques, while increasingly relied upon in policies and diet guidelines, ^[21] often have shortcomings ^[22] because they are prone to the same biases as the studies they are based on. ^{[23] [24]}

Item 7:

Please move the following from Career to a new section entitled “Personal Life”.

Barnard plays cello, guitar, and keyboards, and has been a member of the bands Pop Maru, Verdun, and Carbonworks. ^{[25] [26]}

Thank you again for your kind consideration. PaperHydrate ( talk) 18:18, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply

Don't much care about the other stuff, but all the proposed 'Research' changes based around primary sources are not acceptable. Bon courage ( talk) 18:32, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply

Reply 22-OCT-2023

 Clarifications needed. There are a few items that need to be taken care of before the request is ready for review.

1. There are several instances where more than one reference is placed at the end of a section of text. That always indicates that both references verify all of the information in the sentences. In those situations where two references are doing the work that only one is needed for, the COI editor is asked to ensure that the other one is deleted. Please note that situations where the double referencing is because there is a primary source from the subject and a secondary reliable source talking about the exact same subject, these are of course exempted, and may remain in your proposal.
2. As User:Bon courage stated above, any instances where reliable, independent, secondary sources could not be provided to act as a source, then the proposed text should be deleted from the request. Please note that sources which contain information provided by the subject to a third party, such as through an interview or other such given statements, will likely not be viewed as independent sources.
3. Any significant terms mentioned in the article which have their own Wikipedia pages should be WikiLinked. Currently your request mentions several schools that the subject attended, but none of the text where those schools are mentioned includes WikiLinks. It may be the case that some of these wikilinks already exist in the current article. Nevertheless,, the WikiLinks still need to be carried over into the text that you're proposing to be added. The COI editor is kindly asked to make these necessary changes and submit them below this reply post as a new edit request at their earliest convenience. If you have any questions about the items/changes I've asked for, please don't hesitate to ask. Thank you! Regards,  Spintendo  19:00, 23 October 2023 (UTC) reply

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Hi, I’d like to suggest some updates and corrections. I would be most grateful if independent editors would consider these proposals given that I have a conflict of interest. I am an employee of Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, where Neal Barnard is the president. I very much appreciate your time and efforts in giving these requests your attention.

Item 1: In the Early life and education section, please replace the second sentence with the two sentences proposed below. The existing sentence’s source does not support all the facts in the sentence. The proposed new sentences are accurate, based on reliable sources, and contain relevant details which are missing in the current version.

Existing second sentence:

He received his medical training degree at George Washington University School of Medicine and completed his residency at the same institution in psychiatry, where he began to explore vegan diets. ^[1]

Suggested new sentences:

He received his medical degree at George Washington University School of Medicine in 1980. ^{[2] [3]} He also completed his residency at the same institution. ^[4]

Excerpt: One of the older sources is not available for free. I have pasted in the pertinent paragraph below.

Vancouver Sun, 26 Dec 2001:

Neal Barnard said that when he graduated from medical school at George Washington University in Washington, D.C. in 1980, almost all U.S. schools used animals.

Item 2:

In the Neal D. Barnard#Career section, please replace the first two sentences in the second paragraph, which are based on questionably reliable sources. I propose replacing these with the following two sentences that are more accurate and fully supported by better sources.

Existing sentences:

Barnard serves as an Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine. ^[5] He founded the Barnard Medical Center in 2015 as part of PCRM, and it opened in 2016 with him as president; the center provides primary care and emphasizes diet and preventive medicine. ^{[6] [7]}

Suggested new sentences:

By 2003, ^[8] Barnard was serving as an adjunct professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine, a position he still held as of April 2022. ^[9] In January 2016, ^[10] Barnard founded the Barnard Medical Center in Washington, D.C., ^[11] which provides primary care with a focus on nutrition guidance. ^[12]

Excerpt: One of the older sources is not available for free. I have pasted in the pertinent paragraph below.

Courier Journal (Louisville, KY), 21 Aug 2003, Page G1:

"When you understand that it's chemistry at work, you can stop blaming yourself and start getting on a path that really will solve the problem better than blame will," Barnard, an adjunct associate professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine, said in an interview.

Item 3: Please add a new “Research” section to this article. This will help to improve the organization and structure of the article.

Item 4: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new first paragraph about a study by Barnard concerning the relationship between diet and menstrual pain. I have provided the secondary source describing the study, as well the WP:PRIMARY citation to the study. The study has been cited 119 times according to Scopus. [3] Scopus is one of the two citation metrics databases acceptable for counting citations, according to WP:Notability (academics)#Citation metrics.

Suggested new sentences:

Barnard conducted a randomized control trial, the results of which were published in 2000, that investigated if a low-fat vegetarian diet helped reduce menstrual pain in research participants. ^[13] His study found that among participants, a low-fat vegetarian diet was associated with higher sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) concentration, and lower pain, ^[14] although a 2006 review paper by Proctor and Farquhar argued that the study’s results were not “conclusive” because there were only 33 participants in it. ^[13]

Item 5: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new second paragraph. The study discussed in the paragraph below has been [4] 264 times, according to Scopus. The sentences are sourced with two reliable peer-reviewed sources in high impact factor journals: New England Journal of Medicine and Obesity Reviews.

Suggested new sentences:

In a 2006 study on vegan diets and patients with type 2 diabetes, ^{[15] [16]} Barnard found that participants randomly selected into the vegan diet group ^[15] showed improved optimization of glycemic control and lipid control measures ^{[17] [16]} after 22 weeks compared to the control group, which instead received a diet based on American Diabetes Association guidelines. ^{[18] [19]}

Item 6: In the new Research section, please add the following sentences to make a new second paragraph about a paper Barnard published in JAMA that critiques misuse of meta-analyses in the nutrition and epidemiology field. The paper has been influential in methodology and policy discussions, evidenced in its being in the 99th percentile in Scopus citation measures.

Suggested new sentences:

In 2017, Barnard critiqued the way that meta-analyses were used in nutrition research at that time, in a paper he co-authored in JAMA. ^[20] He argued that meta-analysis techniques, while increasingly relied upon in policies and diet guidelines, ^[21] often have shortcomings ^[22] because they are prone to the same biases as the studies they are based on. ^{[23] [24]}

Item 7:

Please move the following from Career to a new section entitled “Personal Life”.

Barnard plays cello, guitar, and keyboards, and has been a member of the bands Pop Maru, Verdun, and Carbonworks. ^{[25] [26]}

Thank you again for your kind consideration. PaperHydrate ( talk) 21:20, 25 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Item 3, 4, 5, 6 violate WP:MEDRS. We wouldn't cite primary sources for any of his research. If biomedical claims are going to be made then a reliable secondary sources must be added, for example, medical or nutritional textbooks, or systematic reviews etc not individual cohorts or trials. The content you cite here is all primary sources and unreliable. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 22:32, 25 January 2024 (UTC) reply

I see Bon courage on 23 October 2023 told you the same thing that the primary sources you are citing are not reliable. There isn't going to be a "research" section because we have no good independent reliable secondary sourcing for this. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 22:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC) reply

 Done for item 2 (partially, did not include the part citing primary sources) and item 7. The sentence in item 1 is no longer the version originally discussed above, and does not need changing. The other items cannot be added due to reliance on primary sources. ~ Anachronist ( talk) 21:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Wikipedia biographies are not Curriculum vitae, lengthy lists of publications shouldn't be here. See WP:NOTCV. MrOllie ( talk) 19:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

It's hardly a lengthy list. As I said in the most recent edit summary, most biographies have such lists. What is your view on the Bon courage user leaving out just a single title? As I said, it's bizarre. 86.187.171.52 ( talk) 19:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I have no doubt other articles also need to be fixed. That does not mean this one cannot be. MrOllie ( talk) 19:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Actually they don't. It tends to be bro scientists and 'gurus' (usually men) who attract this attention. If you look at the article for an eminent scientist like (say) Nancy Kanwisher, who holds a named chair at MIT, you'll see no such laundry list of publications. Bon courage ( talk) 19:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

What's odd for me is that Barnard's books over the years haven't been reviewed in medical journals. The IP was adding Barnard's latest book but it has not yet been published, it is out in April 2024 in the UK. It's best to wait and see if this book gets any academic coverage or not. I am hoping that Red Pen Reviews might review the book in the future [5] as they reviewed Michael Greger's latest book recently. Unfortunately there is a lack of sourcing in this area so we can't add anything without good sourcing. We have had similar issues in the past on Michael Klaper's article. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 21:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

@ Bon courage: Update, just found these two sources [6], [7]. Are these any good to use? Psychologist Guy ( talk) 22:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

Also a profile at Nature [8] and a brief mention at Science-Based Medicine [9] Psychologist Guy ( talk) 22:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

All looks good for building the article and paving the way to a "Selected works" listing ... Bon courage ( talk) 02:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC) reply

I have added a few sources, if anyone wants to re-word it better that would be useful. At least we have made a start at adding some new sources. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 17:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC) reply