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I think the editor involved was simply confused, and accidentally edited an old version of the page instead of the current one. I did that a few times when I was newer to Wikipedia than I am now. I don't think I removed quite this much material, though – really, the entire Naturism in New Zealand section? Most tellingly, SunCrow, you may not have noticed, but they actually put back quite a lot of the stuff you had removed, which I think you may have thought was what I was doing when I reverted the change. — VeryRarelyStable ( talk) 10:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
The article, at 113,161 bytes, is too long (see WP:TOOBIG). I propose the following:
Thoughts? SunCrow ( talk) 04:37, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
Clothing optional (a redirect to Nude beach) and Clothes free (a redirect to Nudity) have been nominated for discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 2#Clothing optional and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 2#Clothes free respectively. Editors interested in this article are invited to comment in the linked discussions. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
The current version of the article [1] has the following paragraph:
Naturism was part of a literary movement in the late 1800s (see the writings of André Gide) that also influenced the art movements of the time specifically Henri Matisse and other Fauve painters. This movement was based on the French concept of joie de vivre, the idea of reveling freely in physical sensations and direct experiences and a spontaneous approach to life. [1]
Now, the link to fr:Naturisme (mouvement littéraire) was recently introduced. It may or may not be accurate here, but the whole passage leaves me with the uneasy feeling that there may – possibly! – be a mixing up of two meanings of the word naturism – the current one ('lifestyle that involves nudity') an another, older, meaning ('a certain attitude to life and nature'), which presumably was at the base of the literary movement with the name. Does the source explicitly make the connection between the two, that is, did Saint-Georges de Bouhélier, André Gide et al. really advocate for social nudity? – Uanfala (talk) 00:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
References
I feel like most images of this article are misleading because statistics show that most people practicing naturism are people older than 50, and are especially men, and a lot of images here show young women practicing naturism, which is the category of people the least representative of naturists.
Yannicksoulie ( talk) 22:41, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Valid point. If you can upload images to commons and offer links on talk page so that possible changes are discussed first. Edmund Patrick – confer 23:42, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
It seem to me the page already is predominantly portraying men. -- Aréat ( talk) 01:57, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree the article needs some photographs of 50+ people of both sexes to accurately represent naturism. This would also distance it from the nudism as porn school of thought . Naturism is more about body acceptance and body positivity than it is about voyeuristic gazing at young attractive people. Lumos3 ( talk) 10:48, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
How about this one?
-- Roly ( talk) 11:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
OK, I've changed the caption. -- Roly ( talk) 10:02, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I've gone through the list of monograph, and partly through the journal, references and hidden to ones that are no longer tied to anything in the article text. Since none of these supported anything in the article, it seemed superfluous to have them listed in the References section. Perhaps some of the book citations could be moved to the bibliography section (in fact, a couple already were included there). PLEASE NOTE: I have not deleted or removed the references, merely hidden them by commenting them out. I'm sure they will be useful once it can be determined what previous statements they supported. They can be added again by just copying and pasting outside the commented sections. Texttramp ( talk) 01:22, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Two articles on naturist organizations could be merged into the section Naturism#United_States as a new subsection on organizations as a means of resolving ongoing content issues. The Naturist Society was moved to DRAFT: space after being pared down to stub length, and American Association for Nude Recreation has been tagged as reading like and advertisement; both as a result of there being few reliable sources. As with many membership organizations, there is little published about them by anyone outside, leading to the appearance, if not the fact of not being notable or not having a NPOV.-- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 15:29, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The ‘infoboxes’ or knowledge graphs shown in search engine results
It does not make sense to merge two independent organizations into a general topic. Many naturists (or nudists) do not agree that these organizations represent them. They certainly don't control the movement. Yet they are both significant. AANR has been in existence since the early 20th century and is often cited in books and articles. The Naturist Society had an enormous influence on the acceptance of clothing-optional beaches in the USA. For decades they published an extremely influential guide on nude beaches and clothing-optional hot spring. Their magazine, Nude & Natural, frequently contains articles by academics and is often used for scholarly research into naturism/nudism. naturist ( talk) 15:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I had never paid much attention to this article, but decided to do a little cleanup. I immediately found content that was unsupported, or contradictory to the sources cited.
I edited the opening section to reflect that naturism is defined as social, not individual nudity, else everyone would be a nudist/naturist. -- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 21:15, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 11:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
I know that nudists like to pretend that it is non-sexual, but they are wrong. Nudist colonies have long been a place of perversion and child abuse. No image of a child should be on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrankForAllAndBirds ( talk • contribs) 07:34, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
I appreciate the work that has been going into this page, it is becoming a good resource. I would like to suggest, though, that it is missing a lens of modern intersections, and that those are critical to keeping naturism alive. Issues like #freethenipple, body acceptance, feminism, LGBTQ+, and more are very relevant to naturism. I would like to discuss either a section or a new article on these. This is not to say that every person who is a naturist has a uniform view on them but to highlight the relevance and interrelatedness of some of the key items. Mira.Medusa ( talk) 16:09, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
Re the reversion of a previous reversion done in my name. I'm more than a little confused. I don't remember making that edit! I can only think that I inadvertently undid the wrong edit and I hope my account has not been hacked. -- Roly ( talk) 13:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
The picture of Florida Young Naturists is inappropriate for two reasons. The FYN no longer exists, and it isn't representative of the culture. Seniors are the majority, and even at the family-oriented places there are few people in their 20's. Teens tend to wear clothes when given the option. This page suffers from a desire to "sell" naturism to the normies, when it should be an informative article about a culture.
I suggest using instead the FKK image from the Germany section. It is a good representation of nude recreation. Also, while there is nothing in the rules against having full frontal nudity in the article, it might be advisable to avoid it, at least at the top of the page. FrankForAllAndBirds ( talk) 09:09, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
I made the change and replaced the German pic with another one from the Naturism in Germany article. FrankForAllAndBirds ( talk) 03:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Anirudh131819 the lead image was agreed by consensus, so should remain unless another consensus is reached in the future.
Any future change is extremely unlikely to be the image you are trying to revert to, as it was agreed that that image was "posed", so was inappropriate. - Arjayay ( talk) 12:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
A lot of the pictures used do not show the genitals of females while the genitals of males appear more prominently. I can only see two where the genitals of the women are clearly visible and one looks more like a model on a mostly clothed beach that's rather out of place. Another it's slightly obscured and in another she has pubic hair. I don't object to any of the pictures but the ones of males are not only more numerous but more front and foremost and contain more men while the number of females are limited and more indirect from the side and back. Men have their legs open while women do not.
This might be consciously or subconsciously done and the images chosen for aesthetic reasons but it gives the impression that women somehow have their modesty protected which is contrary to the idea of nudism/naturism. All of the activities and positions men are found in women would also be found in and it seems unnatural that so many would hide or obscure their genitals in some way so some bias seems to be at play here. Biofase flame| stalk 13:15, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I have moved this image to the head of the article where its a more fitting accompaniment to the lede than a photo of bathers which has dropped down a few inches. It emphasises that this is a movement and an idea . Its a flag for an for an international movement. Just about every social movement described on Wikipedia , whether its political, cultural , religious or anything else starts off the article with its emblem somewhere at the top of the page. Lumos3 ( talk) 13:58, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Lumos3 ( talk) 13:58, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
My only concern with the image is whether or not it is universally accepted. I can't find any info on how widespread its use is and whether there are objections to it. Just like many nudists don't like the term naturism and there should really be a separate article for it, which there isn't, naturism isn't a huge organisational umbrella where everyone fits in with everything. While there are organisations the majority simply feel they just are and don't see naturism as anything special that should be separated and celebrated but just another way of life. For them it's like choosing to wear corduroy pants instead of jeans where it would be nonsensical to brand such people under a particular symbol. Biofase flame| stalk 17:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
The tag which proposed merging the article Issues in social nudity was placed without consideration that the article was created to reduce the size of this article. However, the article has continued to grow, and I see no obvious remedy. Perhaps there is too much said about each country, only a few having their own articles. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 15:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Female toplessness in Canada which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 22:18, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Naturism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 |
Wikipedia is not censored. Images or details contained within this article may be graphic or otherwise objectionable to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to Wikipedia's content disclaimer regarding potentially objectionable content and options to not see an image. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is a request, submitted by Landlund ( talk), for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "important subject". |
I think the editor involved was simply confused, and accidentally edited an old version of the page instead of the current one. I did that a few times when I was newer to Wikipedia than I am now. I don't think I removed quite this much material, though – really, the entire Naturism in New Zealand section? Most tellingly, SunCrow, you may not have noticed, but they actually put back quite a lot of the stuff you had removed, which I think you may have thought was what I was doing when I reverted the change. — VeryRarelyStable ( talk) 10:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
The article, at 113,161 bytes, is too long (see WP:TOOBIG). I propose the following:
Thoughts? SunCrow ( talk) 04:37, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
Clothing optional (a redirect to Nude beach) and Clothes free (a redirect to Nudity) have been nominated for discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 2#Clothing optional and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 2#Clothes free respectively. Editors interested in this article are invited to comment in the linked discussions. Thryduulf ( talk) 09:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
The current version of the article [1] has the following paragraph:
Naturism was part of a literary movement in the late 1800s (see the writings of André Gide) that also influenced the art movements of the time specifically Henri Matisse and other Fauve painters. This movement was based on the French concept of joie de vivre, the idea of reveling freely in physical sensations and direct experiences and a spontaneous approach to life. [1]
Now, the link to fr:Naturisme (mouvement littéraire) was recently introduced. It may or may not be accurate here, but the whole passage leaves me with the uneasy feeling that there may – possibly! – be a mixing up of two meanings of the word naturism – the current one ('lifestyle that involves nudity') an another, older, meaning ('a certain attitude to life and nature'), which presumably was at the base of the literary movement with the name. Does the source explicitly make the connection between the two, that is, did Saint-Georges de Bouhélier, André Gide et al. really advocate for social nudity? – Uanfala (talk) 00:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
References
I feel like most images of this article are misleading because statistics show that most people practicing naturism are people older than 50, and are especially men, and a lot of images here show young women practicing naturism, which is the category of people the least representative of naturists.
Yannicksoulie ( talk) 22:41, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Valid point. If you can upload images to commons and offer links on talk page so that possible changes are discussed first. Edmund Patrick – confer 23:42, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
It seem to me the page already is predominantly portraying men. -- Aréat ( talk) 01:57, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree the article needs some photographs of 50+ people of both sexes to accurately represent naturism. This would also distance it from the nudism as porn school of thought . Naturism is more about body acceptance and body positivity than it is about voyeuristic gazing at young attractive people. Lumos3 ( talk) 10:48, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
How about this one?
-- Roly ( talk) 11:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
OK, I've changed the caption. -- Roly ( talk) 10:02, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I've gone through the list of monograph, and partly through the journal, references and hidden to ones that are no longer tied to anything in the article text. Since none of these supported anything in the article, it seemed superfluous to have them listed in the References section. Perhaps some of the book citations could be moved to the bibliography section (in fact, a couple already were included there). PLEASE NOTE: I have not deleted or removed the references, merely hidden them by commenting them out. I'm sure they will be useful once it can be determined what previous statements they supported. They can be added again by just copying and pasting outside the commented sections. Texttramp ( talk) 01:22, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Two articles on naturist organizations could be merged into the section Naturism#United_States as a new subsection on organizations as a means of resolving ongoing content issues. The Naturist Society was moved to DRAFT: space after being pared down to stub length, and American Association for Nude Recreation has been tagged as reading like and advertisement; both as a result of there being few reliable sources. As with many membership organizations, there is little published about them by anyone outside, leading to the appearance, if not the fact of not being notable or not having a NPOV.-- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 15:29, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The ‘infoboxes’ or knowledge graphs shown in search engine results
It does not make sense to merge two independent organizations into a general topic. Many naturists (or nudists) do not agree that these organizations represent them. They certainly don't control the movement. Yet they are both significant. AANR has been in existence since the early 20th century and is often cited in books and articles. The Naturist Society had an enormous influence on the acceptance of clothing-optional beaches in the USA. For decades they published an extremely influential guide on nude beaches and clothing-optional hot spring. Their magazine, Nude & Natural, frequently contains articles by academics and is often used for scholarly research into naturism/nudism. naturist ( talk) 15:59, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
I had never paid much attention to this article, but decided to do a little cleanup. I immediately found content that was unsupported, or contradictory to the sources cited.
I edited the opening section to reflect that naturism is defined as social, not individual nudity, else everyone would be a nudist/naturist. -- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 21:15, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 11:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
I know that nudists like to pretend that it is non-sexual, but they are wrong. Nudist colonies have long been a place of perversion and child abuse. No image of a child should be on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrankForAllAndBirds ( talk • contribs) 07:34, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
I appreciate the work that has been going into this page, it is becoming a good resource. I would like to suggest, though, that it is missing a lens of modern intersections, and that those are critical to keeping naturism alive. Issues like #freethenipple, body acceptance, feminism, LGBTQ+, and more are very relevant to naturism. I would like to discuss either a section or a new article on these. This is not to say that every person who is a naturist has a uniform view on them but to highlight the relevance and interrelatedness of some of the key items. Mira.Medusa ( talk) 16:09, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
Re the reversion of a previous reversion done in my name. I'm more than a little confused. I don't remember making that edit! I can only think that I inadvertently undid the wrong edit and I hope my account has not been hacked. -- Roly ( talk) 13:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
The picture of Florida Young Naturists is inappropriate for two reasons. The FYN no longer exists, and it isn't representative of the culture. Seniors are the majority, and even at the family-oriented places there are few people in their 20's. Teens tend to wear clothes when given the option. This page suffers from a desire to "sell" naturism to the normies, when it should be an informative article about a culture.
I suggest using instead the FKK image from the Germany section. It is a good representation of nude recreation. Also, while there is nothing in the rules against having full frontal nudity in the article, it might be advisable to avoid it, at least at the top of the page. FrankForAllAndBirds ( talk) 09:09, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
I made the change and replaced the German pic with another one from the Naturism in Germany article. FrankForAllAndBirds ( talk) 03:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Anirudh131819 the lead image was agreed by consensus, so should remain unless another consensus is reached in the future.
Any future change is extremely unlikely to be the image you are trying to revert to, as it was agreed that that image was "posed", so was inappropriate. - Arjayay ( talk) 12:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
A lot of the pictures used do not show the genitals of females while the genitals of males appear more prominently. I can only see two where the genitals of the women are clearly visible and one looks more like a model on a mostly clothed beach that's rather out of place. Another it's slightly obscured and in another she has pubic hair. I don't object to any of the pictures but the ones of males are not only more numerous but more front and foremost and contain more men while the number of females are limited and more indirect from the side and back. Men have their legs open while women do not.
This might be consciously or subconsciously done and the images chosen for aesthetic reasons but it gives the impression that women somehow have their modesty protected which is contrary to the idea of nudism/naturism. All of the activities and positions men are found in women would also be found in and it seems unnatural that so many would hide or obscure their genitals in some way so some bias seems to be at play here. Biofase flame| stalk 13:15, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I have moved this image to the head of the article where its a more fitting accompaniment to the lede than a photo of bathers which has dropped down a few inches. It emphasises that this is a movement and an idea . Its a flag for an for an international movement. Just about every social movement described on Wikipedia , whether its political, cultural , religious or anything else starts off the article with its emblem somewhere at the top of the page. Lumos3 ( talk) 13:58, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
Lumos3 ( talk) 13:58, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
My only concern with the image is whether or not it is universally accepted. I can't find any info on how widespread its use is and whether there are objections to it. Just like many nudists don't like the term naturism and there should really be a separate article for it, which there isn't, naturism isn't a huge organisational umbrella where everyone fits in with everything. While there are organisations the majority simply feel they just are and don't see naturism as anything special that should be separated and celebrated but just another way of life. For them it's like choosing to wear corduroy pants instead of jeans where it would be nonsensical to brand such people under a particular symbol. Biofase flame| stalk 17:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
The tag which proposed merging the article Issues in social nudity was placed without consideration that the article was created to reduce the size of this article. However, the article has continued to grow, and I see no obvious remedy. Perhaps there is too much said about each country, only a few having their own articles. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 15:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Female toplessness in Canada which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 22:18, 21 December 2023 (UTC)