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The most recent comment was 6 weeks old and redundant, most was far older, and is now totally irrelevant, so I have archived the page.-- Zeraeph 08:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Zeraeph is currently under suspension for Wiki violations and verbally attacking others. As far as I am concerned all her contributions were completely poisonous. I think it is a good idea to keep the previous text archived so we can start afresh with the slate wiped clean. I am working on the Bully and Workplace Bully Wiki entries in particular. Narcissism and psychopathy is closely related to bullying so there is quite a lot of overlap.
I am not in Sam Vaknin's fan club but I feel that Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy. Like him or loath him, Sam is one of the key authorities on narcissism. He still runs two support groups for victims of narcissism. -- Penbat 11:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
No mention of these. They all need their own Wikis. -- Penbat 14:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone here going to update the news that the American .... of Psychiatry has recently concluded that NPD is no longer accepted as a valid assessment?
After 5 years of reading Sam Vaknin through internet and his oft' times endless ramblings making no sense whatsoever then exploiting a number of females that were taken under his "spell" that he relishes odiously - I wholly agree with the new diagnosis of NPD. He always gets rid of people who dare question him by changing his website or cutting them out. A way to avoid any questioning of his self anointed "expertize".
Someone, somewhere got carried away and led a whole nation to believe that what is not possible exists. Narcissism is one thing and sociopathy is another and both I always believed are unrelated.
Psychopaths, killers, etc. often are narcissists as well but none ever become that borne of narcissism and to have intertwined both terms for years I have always believed is a horrid distortion of psychiatric analysis. If not terminology.
Disorder refers to disarray, to throw into confusion, into sociopathy... and I know of no peoples more focused than narcissists of the worst kind. Many of which we see as highly successful entrepeneurs on a daily basis. These may suffer other ailments and get divorced often and produce disfunctional children but certainly left untreated don't end up sociopaths/psychos as NPD would infer.
I have always believed that it is - just as Vaknin himself has repeatedly said - "the Jewish course" since profound Narcissism is more often found among Russian, Ashkanasi and Sephardic Jews of pure blood. Way above and beyond what exists among gentiles of the world.
Have any of you ever tried living in Israel? It's either get louder and brazier than the next person or get verbally cut down to a wimpering pulp. Verbal agressiveness often dominates their way of life. Vaknin himself has said that his own narcissistic Jewishness is what led him to investigate it's cause. Or dysphoria? A word he applies so often it ends up failing to impress.
He suffers from delusions of grandeur. THAT is not narcissism. He plays on the emotions of vulnerable women on internet that he lures into "loving him". His drive for "further" attention is through his supposed profound "studies" on narcissism pretending he's some sort of expert when in fact it is only sloppily put together empirical research that he relies on. I will add, however, that empirical here reaches inward.
Vaknin needs to write about his full experience but in balance sans constant personal aggrandizement that he can't seem to control.
Little wonder why he believes he's an expert?
Thank you for your time. 75.22.213.84 03:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As a Jew, I am overwhelmed that Wikipedia would allow something like this. It makes my heart ache and my mind reels in disbelief. Can it removed? Is this possible? Sarah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.149.20.233 ( talk • contribs)
"Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy"
Don't you know that, like wife beaters, narcissists always pull this stunt to come out smelling like a rose? And it worked on YOU? Oh, what a groaner. Unbelievable. Just unbelievable. I'm oughta here. -- User:ken2849
Small Text
This entry is generally lacking in scholarly rigour and reads as opinion. It would be improved by a healthy dose of substantiation and peer-reviewed referencing.(Unsigned comment)
Yes I agree but more importantly IMO loads of material is completely missing: true self, false self, projection, narcissistic rage, narcissistic supply, narcissistic injury etc are completely missing. They are ideas introduced by the pioneers mentioned on Narcissism_(psychology). I am gradually working towards a more rigourous write up but I am no expert. The only heavyweight expert around who was likely to contribute was Sam Vaknin but the powers that be have banned him.
Not all material can be peer reviewed scientifically as the pioneers such as Kohut had differing theories but they are important to understand. -- Penbat 13:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Also nothing on Comorbidity of NPD. -- Penbat 14:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
You could at least had the decency to discuss this first. There are about 30 books listed - with a wide range of styles - some very academic and some designed for the lay non-technical reader. Sam Vaknin's book is one of the best selling on Narcissism. The reader is more than capable of using their own judgement about which books to refer to. IMO this sort of censorship is unreasonable and If it is not put back I will refuse to ever do any more work on narcissism Wikis. -- Penbat 13:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Google Scholar Search - Scholarly books and journal articles referencing "Narcissistic Supply
found on that page - The earliest date for a doctor (a psychoanalyst) using "Narcissistic Supply" was 1938. The drive to amass wealth O Fenichel - Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 1938 - pep-web.org ... can be looked upon first as a derivative of that primitive form of regulation of self-regard in which the individual requires a 'narcissistic supply' from the ...
Also, these that quote and cite Vaknin
Narzisstische Strukturen -
- I am Kiwi 07:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Google Scholar for Narcissistic Rage As far as I can reckon, Kohut coined this term in a book published in 1971. - I am Kiwi 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
2000 mentions in scholarly books & journals - I am Kiwi 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Google Scholar - professional books and journals dealing with Sources of Narcissistic Personality It may have been Vaknin who coined the terms Primary and Secondary. Not all relevant journals and books are available online, but analysts recognized and described Primary and Secondary sources of supply, even if they didn't use the actual terms.
- I am Kiwi 07:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Sam Vaknin is a more than competent researcher, and he has written a book that may be rambling and repetitive, but that does not not mean that facts within suddenly become faulty. It doesn't work that way. The truth is that Vaknin has devoted a large portion of the last 10+ years studying NPD.
After he brought his as then unpublished book to the web, he immediately attracted thousands of correspondents, including mental health professionals, to include psychiatrists and psychologists. He did not realize he was going to get more letters from the human wreckage NPD spawns than from any other group. This led him to begin years of continuing deep and extensive study of shame, dependence, codependency, other personality disorders, etc.
He has done increasingly large amounts of study in of research findings in a wide range of subjects touching on all aspects of the personality disorders and the disruptions in human relational functioning.
The truth is, Vaknin does not have much of any "original research" in his books and articles. What he percieved from his correspondence, he did not write about directly but of what his research told him about what letters to him said. What Vaknin has in his book comes from the very fine minds of icons in the field. Vaknin's "problem", as I mentioned above, was his failure to footnote. If he weren't so lazy or if he thought it would gain him sufficient narcissistic supply, he might be tempted to tackle that arduous task. - I am Kiwi 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to say I strongly disagree - the whole body of work I've seen is characterised by very sloppy research methods, and it is very worrying that he appears to deliberately mislead people about his qualifications. It is concerning that an individual who has successfully drowned internet sources with his writings, though with no substantial formal qualification or recognition in the profession (and the above list does not dispel this), with assertions that do not appear to be verified, can get a toehold in an encyclopedia.
Topologyrob 06:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
My angle is interest in seeing accurate scientific representation on Wikipedia - it is analagous to not wanting to see discussions of perpetual motion machines in physics entries on Wikipedia (however popular views may be amongst the general public), or 9-11 conspiracy theories in discussions of building demolition (currently attracting a very large popular following). That someone's work can resonate with people (not themselves diagnosed with NPD) does not constitute strong clinical evidence.
I have indeed read Malignant Self Love closely - that is why I am worried that it is so influential in the popular perception of NPD. I believe it is unverified and divergent from clinical evidence.
I am not a qualified psychologist, however, and this should be noted, though I am a stakeholder. I am personally connected with several individuals suffering NPD and have often come up against what I see as misinformation from Sam Vaknin on many occasions as his work is throroughly permeating cyberspace, though it is virtually invisible in the peer-reviewed literature. An encyclopedia should reflect the professional discourse, not the popular one (however, a sociological view of the topic could include discussions of Vaknin). As Vaknin does not publish in peer-reviewed journals, his work should not be priveleged in an encyclopedia - it has not passed the scholarly tests. And much of what he writes could be seen as very damaging, particularly his assertions that NPD is untreatable. These strong statements need to be verified by clinical evidence, not hearsay and personal opinion. Topologyrob 01:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Countering my stance somewhat is the extended quotations from Vaknin in a recent scholarly paper (Summers, D, Summers, C (2006) Unadulterated Arrogance: Autopsy of the Narcissistic Parental Alienator. American Journal of Family Therapy 34:5, 399-428), though Vaknin has not himself published on NPD in peer-reviewed journals, in stark contrast to other authorities cited on the Wikipedia entry - Topologyrob 02:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I strongly suggest having separate articles for N Supply, Rage and Injury. There is a lot that could be said about them especially Supply. They are referred to separately anyway from the Workplace Bullying article. Maybe set them all up as psychology stub articles and build on them over time. Also the psychological concept of "charm" needs an article as well, initially I also suggest setting up as a psychology stub. -- Penbat 15:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Any volunteers to kick it off ? -- Penbat 14:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I think the book list is huge. I don't think it's the norm for a Wikipedia article to have such a large "reading list". I think this list should be mercilessly chopped down to just a few entries, and only of the absolute most notable publications. Thoughts? -- Deathphoenix ʕ 03:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, Sam Vaknin! You silly, silly man! Why put on this ingratiating pretence? You're an adult aren't you? What are you doing Sam, I mean 'I am Kiwi. Awwww, there's a little smile! (sorry everyone else, but Sam Vatkin is a menace)
Pennie, here is my take on the list. You go through it, decide what to keep. Let's try to keep it to no more than 15?? And subgroup them into "self-help" and "professional publications" I'll be checking in and we can sort through all these, then delete the entire topic here once the selections have been made. That way, people won't forever have to wade through all this. - I am Kiwi 09:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Books and Articles on NPD and Pathological Narcissism
I have a very dim point of view of the DSM-IV. It is little more than coding manual for the medical practice-insurance interface. It will be of more interest (for awhile) when the new edition comes out - next year, I think.
I might be wrong, but I don't think this ever became a best seller, nor, I suspect, would it be of much interest to the layman - which is, afterall, the audience Wikipedia is directed at.
Nope.
This one should be moved over to the Medical Narcissism area - whereever that may end up, for what I looked at the stub it is, I'm not certain whether others are beginning to use this term.
This sounds like a KEEPER! Should check out the the Amazon's reviews?
I've read about this book, too. Narcissism and NPD are big big buzz words
Not needed - I have already put up a link to her website where this series of articles resides - you can also download all the articles in a zip file
Nope
NO NO NO
NOPE
NOPE
NOPE NOPE NOPE
Undoubtedly a classic.
I can't be certain, but the title makes me want to yawn.
Bit dated
Nope
This was GOOD. A definite KEEP!
four volumes? every word she ever wrote?
Anything by Kohut is blessed.
This should be moved over to the Narcissism topic
THIS is good.
Now, This might be good..
a Keeper
Sounds intriguing
This sounds very intriguing, especially given the year it was written
References section is not locked but uses inline citations in accord with WP:CITE.-- Zeraeph 20:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
They are very likely to be disdainful and disparaging towards in response to the notion of psychotherapy.
There appears to be a word missing here. Please clarify. Thanks. Ireneshusband 05:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This was posted to several mailing lists last night [2].
The assertions in the post are entirely incorrect and deliberately inflammatory. As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge, all reference to, or text from, this individual's writing has been removed from the articles in question where he had posted it, because of it's unverifiability and inaccuracy.
I have have contacted this individual several times asking him which portions of text he feels infringe his copyright so that they may be deleted, and received no reply. -- Zeraeph 19:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ken2849 22:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)ken2849
I would be the first person to admit that this article needs considerable expansion, but only with great care, with citation, from verifiable WP:V and reliable sources WP:RS. So please do not alter this article substantially until you have verifiable and cited information to offer. Thank You. -- Zeraeph 02:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
the correct term has been inserted where the behaviors described by the DSM-IV and the most professional texts belong to NPD, not to this clinically vague term "narcissism". and the phrase "to the extent" is scarcely encyclopedic, never mind clinically meaningful. now if some of these books being used as authoritative sources here are about narcissism, not NPD, then they shouldn't be used in this article but in the Narcissism (psychology) article. if it is felt necessary to give context, all that is needed is to reference the Narcissism (psychology) article. if the word narcissism is to be used in this article, it must be qualified as a pathologically extreme form of narcissism - for clarity as opposed to confusion. 172.191.141.133 03:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
There should be a section on the contraversy of these types of ridiculous labels. Many people have recognized that:
These "disorders" fail to seperate philisophical beliefs held by the "afflicted" that mitigate what would be selfish behavior from whatever is actually driving that behavior (which again may be more beliefs!). The opposing point of view holds this especially important because convincing/punishing such a person into holding the right beleif set may transform that drive into a strong drive to do good in order to earn recognition. What famous figure couldn't be described as having some of these symptoms? They are fallacious - many types of famous figures had to "dare" to be great before they could acheieve something great.
Occam's Razor - the simplest reason a person might be convinced that they are special relative to other people is that THEY ACTUALLY ARE. For instance if a person is driven to think more rationally and conceptually than others due to traumatic experiences, they might quickly find differences between themselves and other people that could be described as the other people using fallacious reasoning on a regular basis. Such people didn't ask to be "special" in this respect, and are forced to recognize the difference only because they frequently clash with others. The problem with trying to denote such behavior as flawed is that the deviant is PROVABLY RIGHT and the others are PROVABLY WRONG in their behavior (this is what defining fallacies seeks to do). If that wasn't the case, then such people would simply stop acting that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.188.25 ( talk) 12:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
This is a very interesting perspective, however people with narcissistic personality disorder often come in to treatment voluntarily because they have difficulty forming or maintaining relationships. Occam's razor would state: if a person with a mental disorder that makes it difficult for them to be realistic, states that they actually are "especially" special, this is probably a result of their disorder. Unfortunately, the real problem with the "specialness" of the patient suffering from narcissistic personality disorder is that they use people, people are seen as a means of self-enhancement rather than as people and this results in a lot of irrational suffering. It would be a little funny to put an "NPOV" on article like schizophrenia, because those people actually believe that they are seeing what they are hallucinating, or they believe that their delusions (such as that they are being persecuted by aliens) are absolutely true. Similarly, people with NPD have delusions that they are incredible and everybody else should just be their servants, why should we include this delusion? Nonymous-raz ( talk) 15:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
There should be a link to this part of their behaior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.131.100.45 ( talk) 17:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I added a link to this set of webpages: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html because I found it very useful so very VERY much that's thrown up by google searches leads to that Sam Vaknin character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.205.92 ( talk) 22:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The information this link points to is written by someone who admits to having absolutely no educational background on narcissism. They are not a therapist, not educated in psychology or any related field, and writing from personal experience alone. Narcissism can only be diagnosed by someone in the mental health field. I object to this link because too much information pertaining to narcissism on the web is written by children of narcissists, who themselves have mental health issues and are in no position to define narcissism. Many of these children of narcissists attribute narcissistic behaviors to things which are normal. The information at this site is simply not written by a professional and therefore questionable as to its reliability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.42.236 ( talk) 04:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
This is an appeal to whoever monitors or feels confident in their knowledge of the subject to shepherd this page. I have a difficult time understanding why "Solipsism" and "Victory Disease" have anything to do with the NPD topic. It seems to be a real misunderstanding of the subject to link these in as they are not really lend any insight to each other or the NPD topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.102.112.18 ( talk) 19:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Most archived material was quite old, the only more recent was almost entirely contentious and not very relevant to topic. Let's have a fresh start for 2007. -- Zeraeph 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
There is an unbelievable volume of subjectivity, partial information and misinformation on this topic on the internet posted by self appointed experts, self styled "victims of narcissists", self styled "persons exceptional" (not a hint of grandiosity in that you understand), you name it. Some of these sources are malicious or mischievous, but most are well intentioned, or at worst self indulgent. There are even "schools of thought" that oppose each other that are equally misinformative on both sides!
It has got to the stage where it really would be unfair to single out any one individual as "The main source of misinformation on NPD". To the contrary, being a source of misinformation on NPD seems quite a fashionable vocation these days (the same applies to a few other Disorders and conditions).
The trouble is it is just TOO EASY fall into the trap of assuming that some of this misinformation is established and valid medical or psychological thought, often without even being aware of the source.
I think it is very important on Wikipedia to dismiss all that misinformation and get back to valid medical and psychological sources.
I personally feel that we owe it to those diagnosed with NPD, and those close to them, to present the diagnosis honestly, fairly, neutrally and accurately, without any kind of subjectivity, for or against.
But there will be an ongoing problem. Those with NPD may be unreliable, if not quite resistant, to objectively discuss NPD or any egosyntonic disorder. Then you have the "victims" that are quite vicious and heavily biased. That said, I believe the victims deserve to be heard. I personally feel a lot of empathy for their experiences. I believe you can find out a lot about NPD by asking someone that was in a relationship with the subject. What bothers me though, is the expectations that may later validate more misinformation, and cruel behavior and attitudes against those with NPD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.230.145 ( talk) 21:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I have already learned a little about what NPD really is from trying to straighten out this article (by interrogatng low flying mental health professionals, NOT from my own knowledge), as more good faith editors, without agenda, weigh in with valid, cited material, I am hoping to learn more.
Because of the plethora of misinformation already available, I am hoping we can try to achieve this by sticking to citing sources that people can, at least partially (such as PUBMED), check for themselves, rather than obscure paper only sources?
Let's do it, huh? -- Zeraeph 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed that edit for now as uncited, because it is a concept that seems to me (for some time) may have only originated in the amateur "online world of NPD". However if I am wrong about that I hope we can find valid, verifiable citations, from reputable academic or medical sources to not only support it but hopefully expand it into a subsection.-- Zeraeph 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I made the final section more concise by removing tautology and other repetition. I also removed some rather unsubstantiated assertions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.237.81.156 ( talk) 13:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
remove link to suite101 site, as i got such response from system: "The following text is what triggered our spam filter: http://www_suite101_com" Dr.Gangino 19:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
@Zeraeph: Look, its a valid contemporary book addressing NPD and is readily available at all major booksellers and libraries. In response to your reference of WP-EL, there was no external link, just an ISBN # which Wikipedia automatically adds a link to (to its own ISBN search). And to your reference to WP-RS, this book has a endorsing foreword by James Masterson (the man himself!), and its published by Simon and Shuster. Sorry if the author is just a lowly LCSW, but again, it was placed under a "Further Reading" section, not references or sources. So, please reconsider adding this section, which you let stand for at least several weeks until some kid vandalized it, now all of a sudden its not restored because its no longer valid? And no, I am not the author, nor do I have a vested interest in the sales of this book. 24.38.116.118 17:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I second that too. This article has had a long history with the author of the afforementioned book trying to promote his work via wikipedia, posting in the talk pages under aliases and sock puppets. This can only hurt our encyclopaedia. 84.254.51.56 07:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Citations and WP:RS are vitally important to this article, and not just because it's topic concerns a medical diagnosis, affecting many people directly and indirectly, though that should be more than enough reason.
There are people (who, may, possibly, need to get out more) who spend a lot of time insisting that this particular article is full of factual errors, whether it is or not, so, in order to keep such critics firmly in their rightful place, it is vital to ensure the latter, and to ensure that can be reliably verified at all times. ;o) -- Zeraeph 18:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, the second paragraph in the "Clinical Experience" section, the one starting with "In common practice...", is lifted word-for-word from Alan Rappoport's "Co-Narcissism" paper. I deleted it and noted this in my deletion comment - why did you revert it Zeraeph? You should make your reasons clear in your edit comment or here. Steve Carlson Talk 04:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
See WP:MEDMOS, you can't use opinion pieces, even from the Times, as sources in a medical article! It also contains some seriously weird misinformation. -- Zeraeph 19:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The article states 'An over-sensitive temperament at birth' as one of the causes of NPD. What does being 'over-sensitive at birth' mean? How is this diagnosed or defined?
Needs to be re-defined...Dr. Vaknin notes clinical hypersensitivity as adults... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.211.16.51 ( talk) 03:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
While the term may have first been recorded in print in 1972 by Kohut, after his decades of doing psychoanalytic work with narcissists, the term has not stood in isolation and it is a well-recognized term because what the rage INDICATES - the inner emotional state.
See PubMed - Items 1 - 19 of 19One page. 1: Related Articles, LinksJosephs L.
The impulse to infidelity and oedipal splitting. Int J Psychoanal. 2006 Apr;87(Pt 2):423-37. PMID: 16581584 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]2: Related Articles, LinksWalter M, Dammann G, Küchenhoff J, Frommer J, Schoeneich F, Danzer G, Klapp BF.
Psychosocial situation of living donors: moods, complaints, and self-image before and after liver transplantation. Med Sci Monit. 2005 Nov;11(11):CR503-9. PMID: 16258393 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]3: Related Articles, LinksGutheil TG, Simon RI.
Narcissistic dimensions of expert witness practice. J Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 2005;33(1):55-8. PMID: 15809240 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]4: Related Articles, LinksArlow JA, Baudry FD.
Flaubert's Madame Bovary: a study in envy and revenge. Psychoanal Q. 2002 Apr;71(2):213-33. PMID: 11962099 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]5: Related Articles, LinksMeloy JR.
Spousal homicide and the subsequent staging of a sexual homicide at a distant location. J Forensic Sci. 2002 Mar;47(2):395-8. PMID: 11908617 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]6: Related Articles, LinksRhodewalt F, Morf CC.
On self-aggrandizement and anger: a temporal analysis of narcissism and affective reactions to success and failure. J Pers Soc Psychol. 1998 Mar;74(3):672-85. PMID: 9523411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]7: Related Articles, LinksWaska RT.
Precursors to masochistic and dependent character development. Am J Psychoanal. 1997 Sep;57(3):253-67. PMID: 9335941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]8: Related Articles, LinksLansky MR.
Shame and suicide in Sophocles' Ajax. Psychoanal Q. 1996 Oct;65(4):761-86. PMID: 8933616 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]9: Related Articles, LinksChessick RD.
The psychoanalytic treatment of ulcerative colitis revisited. J Am Acad Psychoanal. 1995 Summer;23(2):243-61. PMID: 8675448 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]10: Related Articles, LinksGrosch WN.
Narcissism: shame, rage and addiction. Psychiatr Q. 1994 Spring;65(1):49-63. PMID: 8165267 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]11: Related Articles, LinksFeldmann TB, Johnson PW.
The selfobject function of weapons: a self psychology examination. J Am Acad Psychoanal. 1992 Winter;20(4):561-76. PMID: 1291544 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]12: Related Articles, LinksDodes LM.
Addiction, helplessness, and narcissistic rage. Psychoanal Q. 1990 Jul;59(3):398-419. PMID: 2399288 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]13: Related Articles, LinksGomez EA.
The Narcissus legend, the white whale, and Ahab's narcissistic rage: a self-psychological perspective. J Am Acad Psychoanal. 1990 Winter;18(4):644-53. No abstract available. PMID: 2283343 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]14: Related Articles, LinksFaller H.
[Emotional processing of perceived stresses by myocardial infarct rehabilitation patients: a speech content analytic study of affect in narrative interviews] Psychother Psychosom Med Psychol. 1989 May;39(5):151-60. German. PMID: 2734430 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]15: Related Articles, LinksHorowitz MJ, Arthur RJ.
Narcissistic rage in leaders: the intersection of individual dynamics and group process. Int J Soc Psychiatry. 1988 Summer;34(2):135-41. PMID: 3410659 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]16: Related Articles, LinksRudolph J.
Aggression in the service of the ego and the self. J Am Psychoanal Assoc. 1981;29(3):559-79. PMID: 7299031 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]17: Related Articles, LinksMiller A.
The drama of the gifted child and the psycho-analyst's narcissistic disturbance. Int J Psychoanal. 1979;60(1):47-58. PMID: 457342 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]18: Related Articles, LinksFox RP.
Narcissistic rage and the problem of combat aggression. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1974 Dec;31(6):807-11. No abstract available. PMID: 4441248 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]19: Related Articles, LinksKohut H.
[Narcissism and narcissistic rage] Psyche (Stuttg). 1973 Jun;27(6):513-54. German. No abstract available. PMID: 4731068 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
and per Google Scholar, minus any mention of Vaknin - 1880 incidences... http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22narcissistic+rage%22+-vaknin
While this is not MY experience with those with NPD (even finding the condition worsening), I HAVE seen the studies confirming this about AsPDs (who, of course, are an artificial construct not necessarily identical to psychopaths or other extreme classifications. I have not seen any studies for NPDs, tho I have heard this about NPDs, too, except in therapists' reports about their own patients. Can anyone find a clinical study confirming this? Otherwise, it's not likely to last long. Spotted Owl ( talk) 07:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The term "narcissistic" has been around since the Greeks and has gained various meanings and interpretations over time. Also the psychoanalytic school (Kohut and such) uses the term differently. Since this article has the template {{DSM_personality_disorders}} at the bottom, I believe that the article should stick to the formal definitions of the diagnostic categories used today. Especially and article on DSM personality disorders should be about the relevant DSM personality disorder. I think including the ICD-10 is important as these two main bodies developing classifications pertaining to world-wide use are seeking to work together so that the meanings of terms are agreed upon. But, my opinion is that the many other uses of the term, including by people in the mental health field, should not be the majority of this particular article. Mattisse 19:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I.m not too sure what you guys are talking about. We already have separate narcissism and Narcissism_(psychology) articles. Mind you I think there should be separate narcissistic rage, supply and injury articles. -- Penbat ( talk) 14:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is full of nonsense. Nearly all of the "facts" provided in it point to mere anti-social behavior. If you were to apply this to the current generation of our teenage population, we could argue that all of them have naricissitic personality disorders based on what was provided here. Haruyasha ( talk) 09:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
What about famous people? Many of them are narcissistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.130.136.199 ( talk) 14:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree that sources should be found about the connection between narcissism and fame 78.130.136.199 ( talk) 00:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds the beginning of the page to present a blatant contradiction (words in caps are the contradiction)?:
"the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as 'a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, NEED FOR ADMIRATION, and a lack of empathy.' The narcissist is described as TURNING INWARD FOR GRATIFICATION RATHER THAN DEPENDING ON OTHERS" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.248.176 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I am currently enrolled in my graduating year in Psychology, in my Abnormal Psychology class my professor a psychotherapist, specializing in NPD and Borderline personality disorder for the past 40 years, stated that etiology of the disorder is actually, and I paraphrase, "There is a stage in the life of everyone where a person has grandiose tendencies or is a narcassist, if during this stage in early childhood development, their parents do not constantly praise and admire their child, the person will develop what I call grandiose-type narcissistic personality disorder. The person will become fixated in that stage of their life and continue to seek others that will praise or admire them. They may enter the field of say Astronomy, and quickly rise to the top, receiving awards and praise from their peers, but they will then fall, because they were not in the field because they loved Astronomy, they wanted the praise of being at the top. I, for instance, practice psychology because I love it, I also want to do well in treating my patients and make money, but if I had narcissistic personality disorder I would do it only to climb to the top and receive praise. The participant will require mirroring transference, they seek from their therapist, someone who will praise them and value them like their parents didn't do enough. The other type of narcissistic personality disorder is enfeebled type, this is not talked about by the DSM, but it has similar symptoms. Enfeebled personality disorders occurs when the person in a stage of their early childhood development does not have someone who they believe is infallible and omniscient. It is normal for a child for much of their life to look at mom or dad as someone that knows everything, they're always strong and know whats right or wrong. As the child matures they will become more and more aware that their parent is intelligent but not infallible-- and this is healthy this is normal. If a child however, sees too often that their parent doesn't know something or cries or is too weak, then they will remain, in Freudian terms, fixated in this stage and seek out important celebrities or top professors to latch on to so they can idealize them. These patients, in therapy seek someone who will be perfect and omnipotent. They show idealizing transference. Often, particularly with young therapists, the therapist will say "oh stop I'm not actually perfect, its okay to be flawed" and the enfeebled narcissist will say "oh look not only are you perfect, you're modest too." These are the patients that their therapist might burp and they will say "wow how insightful." As you may have been able to discern this professor is eclectic but applies modern psychodynamic theory, as well as humanist theory, especially to his therapy. Nonymous-raz ( talk) 15:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Bitsnpieces, you removed:
And you added:
Can you provide more information? Were the references you removed bad in some way? Can you provide references for the new material? And what exactly is meant by "prognosis is very poor?" "Poor" as in it's incurable, or as in the person will have a terrible quality of life, or what? Axlrosen ( talk) 12:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Is there a reason why Savior complex redirects here? The folk definition of that term indicates someone who (falsely) believes that they can save or help someone else. That doesn't seem to quite meet the level of "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."
Is savior complex, then, also a clinical term synonymous with NPD, and/or just used incorrectly in common usage? 67.182.218.55 ( talk) 22:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The most recent comment was 6 weeks old and redundant, most was far older, and is now totally irrelevant, so I have archived the page.-- Zeraeph 08:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Zeraeph is currently under suspension for Wiki violations and verbally attacking others. As far as I am concerned all her contributions were completely poisonous. I think it is a good idea to keep the previous text archived so we can start afresh with the slate wiped clean. I am working on the Bully and Workplace Bully Wiki entries in particular. Narcissism and psychopathy is closely related to bullying so there is quite a lot of overlap.
I am not in Sam Vaknin's fan club but I feel that Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy. Like him or loath him, Sam is one of the key authorities on narcissism. He still runs two support groups for victims of narcissism. -- Penbat 11:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
No mention of these. They all need their own Wikis. -- Penbat 14:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Is anyone here going to update the news that the American .... of Psychiatry has recently concluded that NPD is no longer accepted as a valid assessment?
After 5 years of reading Sam Vaknin through internet and his oft' times endless ramblings making no sense whatsoever then exploiting a number of females that were taken under his "spell" that he relishes odiously - I wholly agree with the new diagnosis of NPD. He always gets rid of people who dare question him by changing his website or cutting them out. A way to avoid any questioning of his self anointed "expertize".
Someone, somewhere got carried away and led a whole nation to believe that what is not possible exists. Narcissism is one thing and sociopathy is another and both I always believed are unrelated.
Psychopaths, killers, etc. often are narcissists as well but none ever become that borne of narcissism and to have intertwined both terms for years I have always believed is a horrid distortion of psychiatric analysis. If not terminology.
Disorder refers to disarray, to throw into confusion, into sociopathy... and I know of no peoples more focused than narcissists of the worst kind. Many of which we see as highly successful entrepeneurs on a daily basis. These may suffer other ailments and get divorced often and produce disfunctional children but certainly left untreated don't end up sociopaths/psychos as NPD would infer.
I have always believed that it is - just as Vaknin himself has repeatedly said - "the Jewish course" since profound Narcissism is more often found among Russian, Ashkanasi and Sephardic Jews of pure blood. Way above and beyond what exists among gentiles of the world.
Have any of you ever tried living in Israel? It's either get louder and brazier than the next person or get verbally cut down to a wimpering pulp. Verbal agressiveness often dominates their way of life. Vaknin himself has said that his own narcissistic Jewishness is what led him to investigate it's cause. Or dysphoria? A word he applies so often it ends up failing to impress.
He suffers from delusions of grandeur. THAT is not narcissism. He plays on the emotions of vulnerable women on internet that he lures into "loving him". His drive for "further" attention is through his supposed profound "studies" on narcissism pretending he's some sort of expert when in fact it is only sloppily put together empirical research that he relies on. I will add, however, that empirical here reaches inward.
Vaknin needs to write about his full experience but in balance sans constant personal aggrandizement that he can't seem to control.
Little wonder why he believes he's an expert?
Thank you for your time. 75.22.213.84 03:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
As a Jew, I am overwhelmed that Wikipedia would allow something like this. It makes my heart ache and my mind reels in disbelief. Can it removed? Is this possible? Sarah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.149.20.233 ( talk • contribs)
"Zeraeph wound him up into a frenzy"
Don't you know that, like wife beaters, narcissists always pull this stunt to come out smelling like a rose? And it worked on YOU? Oh, what a groaner. Unbelievable. Just unbelievable. I'm oughta here. -- User:ken2849
Small Text
This entry is generally lacking in scholarly rigour and reads as opinion. It would be improved by a healthy dose of substantiation and peer-reviewed referencing.(Unsigned comment)
Yes I agree but more importantly IMO loads of material is completely missing: true self, false self, projection, narcissistic rage, narcissistic supply, narcissistic injury etc are completely missing. They are ideas introduced by the pioneers mentioned on Narcissism_(psychology). I am gradually working towards a more rigourous write up but I am no expert. The only heavyweight expert around who was likely to contribute was Sam Vaknin but the powers that be have banned him.
Not all material can be peer reviewed scientifically as the pioneers such as Kohut had differing theories but they are important to understand. -- Penbat 13:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Also nothing on Comorbidity of NPD. -- Penbat 14:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
You could at least had the decency to discuss this first. There are about 30 books listed - with a wide range of styles - some very academic and some designed for the lay non-technical reader. Sam Vaknin's book is one of the best selling on Narcissism. The reader is more than capable of using their own judgement about which books to refer to. IMO this sort of censorship is unreasonable and If it is not put back I will refuse to ever do any more work on narcissism Wikis. -- Penbat 13:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Google Scholar Search - Scholarly books and journal articles referencing "Narcissistic Supply
found on that page - The earliest date for a doctor (a psychoanalyst) using "Narcissistic Supply" was 1938. The drive to amass wealth O Fenichel - Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 1938 - pep-web.org ... can be looked upon first as a derivative of that primitive form of regulation of self-regard in which the individual requires a 'narcissistic supply' from the ...
Also, these that quote and cite Vaknin
Narzisstische Strukturen -
- I am Kiwi 07:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Google Scholar for Narcissistic Rage As far as I can reckon, Kohut coined this term in a book published in 1971. - I am Kiwi 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
2000 mentions in scholarly books & journals - I am Kiwi 07:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Google Scholar - professional books and journals dealing with Sources of Narcissistic Personality It may have been Vaknin who coined the terms Primary and Secondary. Not all relevant journals and books are available online, but analysts recognized and described Primary and Secondary sources of supply, even if they didn't use the actual terms.
- I am Kiwi 07:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Sam Vaknin is a more than competent researcher, and he has written a book that may be rambling and repetitive, but that does not not mean that facts within suddenly become faulty. It doesn't work that way. The truth is that Vaknin has devoted a large portion of the last 10+ years studying NPD.
After he brought his as then unpublished book to the web, he immediately attracted thousands of correspondents, including mental health professionals, to include psychiatrists and psychologists. He did not realize he was going to get more letters from the human wreckage NPD spawns than from any other group. This led him to begin years of continuing deep and extensive study of shame, dependence, codependency, other personality disorders, etc.
He has done increasingly large amounts of study in of research findings in a wide range of subjects touching on all aspects of the personality disorders and the disruptions in human relational functioning.
The truth is, Vaknin does not have much of any "original research" in his books and articles. What he percieved from his correspondence, he did not write about directly but of what his research told him about what letters to him said. What Vaknin has in his book comes from the very fine minds of icons in the field. Vaknin's "problem", as I mentioned above, was his failure to footnote. If he weren't so lazy or if he thought it would gain him sufficient narcissistic supply, he might be tempted to tackle that arduous task. - I am Kiwi 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to say I strongly disagree - the whole body of work I've seen is characterised by very sloppy research methods, and it is very worrying that he appears to deliberately mislead people about his qualifications. It is concerning that an individual who has successfully drowned internet sources with his writings, though with no substantial formal qualification or recognition in the profession (and the above list does not dispel this), with assertions that do not appear to be verified, can get a toehold in an encyclopedia.
Topologyrob 06:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
My angle is interest in seeing accurate scientific representation on Wikipedia - it is analagous to not wanting to see discussions of perpetual motion machines in physics entries on Wikipedia (however popular views may be amongst the general public), or 9-11 conspiracy theories in discussions of building demolition (currently attracting a very large popular following). That someone's work can resonate with people (not themselves diagnosed with NPD) does not constitute strong clinical evidence.
I have indeed read Malignant Self Love closely - that is why I am worried that it is so influential in the popular perception of NPD. I believe it is unverified and divergent from clinical evidence.
I am not a qualified psychologist, however, and this should be noted, though I am a stakeholder. I am personally connected with several individuals suffering NPD and have often come up against what I see as misinformation from Sam Vaknin on many occasions as his work is throroughly permeating cyberspace, though it is virtually invisible in the peer-reviewed literature. An encyclopedia should reflect the professional discourse, not the popular one (however, a sociological view of the topic could include discussions of Vaknin). As Vaknin does not publish in peer-reviewed journals, his work should not be priveleged in an encyclopedia - it has not passed the scholarly tests. And much of what he writes could be seen as very damaging, particularly his assertions that NPD is untreatable. These strong statements need to be verified by clinical evidence, not hearsay and personal opinion. Topologyrob 01:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Countering my stance somewhat is the extended quotations from Vaknin in a recent scholarly paper (Summers, D, Summers, C (2006) Unadulterated Arrogance: Autopsy of the Narcissistic Parental Alienator. American Journal of Family Therapy 34:5, 399-428), though Vaknin has not himself published on NPD in peer-reviewed journals, in stark contrast to other authorities cited on the Wikipedia entry - Topologyrob 02:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I strongly suggest having separate articles for N Supply, Rage and Injury. There is a lot that could be said about them especially Supply. They are referred to separately anyway from the Workplace Bullying article. Maybe set them all up as psychology stub articles and build on them over time. Also the psychological concept of "charm" needs an article as well, initially I also suggest setting up as a psychology stub. -- Penbat 15:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Any volunteers to kick it off ? -- Penbat 14:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I think the book list is huge. I don't think it's the norm for a Wikipedia article to have such a large "reading list". I think this list should be mercilessly chopped down to just a few entries, and only of the absolute most notable publications. Thoughts? -- Deathphoenix ʕ 03:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, Sam Vaknin! You silly, silly man! Why put on this ingratiating pretence? You're an adult aren't you? What are you doing Sam, I mean 'I am Kiwi. Awwww, there's a little smile! (sorry everyone else, but Sam Vatkin is a menace)
Pennie, here is my take on the list. You go through it, decide what to keep. Let's try to keep it to no more than 15?? And subgroup them into "self-help" and "professional publications" I'll be checking in and we can sort through all these, then delete the entire topic here once the selections have been made. That way, people won't forever have to wade through all this. - I am Kiwi 09:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Books and Articles on NPD and Pathological Narcissism
I have a very dim point of view of the DSM-IV. It is little more than coding manual for the medical practice-insurance interface. It will be of more interest (for awhile) when the new edition comes out - next year, I think.
I might be wrong, but I don't think this ever became a best seller, nor, I suspect, would it be of much interest to the layman - which is, afterall, the audience Wikipedia is directed at.
Nope.
This one should be moved over to the Medical Narcissism area - whereever that may end up, for what I looked at the stub it is, I'm not certain whether others are beginning to use this term.
This sounds like a KEEPER! Should check out the the Amazon's reviews?
I've read about this book, too. Narcissism and NPD are big big buzz words
Not needed - I have already put up a link to her website where this series of articles resides - you can also download all the articles in a zip file
Nope
NO NO NO
NOPE
NOPE
NOPE NOPE NOPE
Undoubtedly a classic.
I can't be certain, but the title makes me want to yawn.
Bit dated
Nope
This was GOOD. A definite KEEP!
four volumes? every word she ever wrote?
Anything by Kohut is blessed.
This should be moved over to the Narcissism topic
THIS is good.
Now, This might be good..
a Keeper
Sounds intriguing
This sounds very intriguing, especially given the year it was written
References section is not locked but uses inline citations in accord with WP:CITE.-- Zeraeph 20:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
They are very likely to be disdainful and disparaging towards in response to the notion of psychotherapy.
There appears to be a word missing here. Please clarify. Thanks. Ireneshusband 05:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This was posted to several mailing lists last night [2].
The assertions in the post are entirely incorrect and deliberately inflammatory. As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge, all reference to, or text from, this individual's writing has been removed from the articles in question where he had posted it, because of it's unverifiability and inaccuracy.
I have have contacted this individual several times asking him which portions of text he feels infringe his copyright so that they may be deleted, and received no reply. -- Zeraeph 19:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ken2849 22:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)ken2849
I would be the first person to admit that this article needs considerable expansion, but only with great care, with citation, from verifiable WP:V and reliable sources WP:RS. So please do not alter this article substantially until you have verifiable and cited information to offer. Thank You. -- Zeraeph 02:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
the correct term has been inserted where the behaviors described by the DSM-IV and the most professional texts belong to NPD, not to this clinically vague term "narcissism". and the phrase "to the extent" is scarcely encyclopedic, never mind clinically meaningful. now if some of these books being used as authoritative sources here are about narcissism, not NPD, then they shouldn't be used in this article but in the Narcissism (psychology) article. if it is felt necessary to give context, all that is needed is to reference the Narcissism (psychology) article. if the word narcissism is to be used in this article, it must be qualified as a pathologically extreme form of narcissism - for clarity as opposed to confusion. 172.191.141.133 03:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
There should be a section on the contraversy of these types of ridiculous labels. Many people have recognized that:
These "disorders" fail to seperate philisophical beliefs held by the "afflicted" that mitigate what would be selfish behavior from whatever is actually driving that behavior (which again may be more beliefs!). The opposing point of view holds this especially important because convincing/punishing such a person into holding the right beleif set may transform that drive into a strong drive to do good in order to earn recognition. What famous figure couldn't be described as having some of these symptoms? They are fallacious - many types of famous figures had to "dare" to be great before they could acheieve something great.
Occam's Razor - the simplest reason a person might be convinced that they are special relative to other people is that THEY ACTUALLY ARE. For instance if a person is driven to think more rationally and conceptually than others due to traumatic experiences, they might quickly find differences between themselves and other people that could be described as the other people using fallacious reasoning on a regular basis. Such people didn't ask to be "special" in this respect, and are forced to recognize the difference only because they frequently clash with others. The problem with trying to denote such behavior as flawed is that the deviant is PROVABLY RIGHT and the others are PROVABLY WRONG in their behavior (this is what defining fallacies seeks to do). If that wasn't the case, then such people would simply stop acting that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.188.25 ( talk) 12:39, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
This is a very interesting perspective, however people with narcissistic personality disorder often come in to treatment voluntarily because they have difficulty forming or maintaining relationships. Occam's razor would state: if a person with a mental disorder that makes it difficult for them to be realistic, states that they actually are "especially" special, this is probably a result of their disorder. Unfortunately, the real problem with the "specialness" of the patient suffering from narcissistic personality disorder is that they use people, people are seen as a means of self-enhancement rather than as people and this results in a lot of irrational suffering. It would be a little funny to put an "NPOV" on article like schizophrenia, because those people actually believe that they are seeing what they are hallucinating, or they believe that their delusions (such as that they are being persecuted by aliens) are absolutely true. Similarly, people with NPD have delusions that they are incredible and everybody else should just be their servants, why should we include this delusion? Nonymous-raz ( talk) 15:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
There should be a link to this part of their behaior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.131.100.45 ( talk) 17:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I added a link to this set of webpages: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html because I found it very useful so very VERY much that's thrown up by google searches leads to that Sam Vaknin character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.205.92 ( talk) 22:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
The information this link points to is written by someone who admits to having absolutely no educational background on narcissism. They are not a therapist, not educated in psychology or any related field, and writing from personal experience alone. Narcissism can only be diagnosed by someone in the mental health field. I object to this link because too much information pertaining to narcissism on the web is written by children of narcissists, who themselves have mental health issues and are in no position to define narcissism. Many of these children of narcissists attribute narcissistic behaviors to things which are normal. The information at this site is simply not written by a professional and therefore questionable as to its reliability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.42.236 ( talk) 04:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
This is an appeal to whoever monitors or feels confident in their knowledge of the subject to shepherd this page. I have a difficult time understanding why "Solipsism" and "Victory Disease" have anything to do with the NPD topic. It seems to be a real misunderstanding of the subject to link these in as they are not really lend any insight to each other or the NPD topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.102.112.18 ( talk) 19:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Most archived material was quite old, the only more recent was almost entirely contentious and not very relevant to topic. Let's have a fresh start for 2007. -- Zeraeph 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
There is an unbelievable volume of subjectivity, partial information and misinformation on this topic on the internet posted by self appointed experts, self styled "victims of narcissists", self styled "persons exceptional" (not a hint of grandiosity in that you understand), you name it. Some of these sources are malicious or mischievous, but most are well intentioned, or at worst self indulgent. There are even "schools of thought" that oppose each other that are equally misinformative on both sides!
It has got to the stage where it really would be unfair to single out any one individual as "The main source of misinformation on NPD". To the contrary, being a source of misinformation on NPD seems quite a fashionable vocation these days (the same applies to a few other Disorders and conditions).
The trouble is it is just TOO EASY fall into the trap of assuming that some of this misinformation is established and valid medical or psychological thought, often without even being aware of the source.
I think it is very important on Wikipedia to dismiss all that misinformation and get back to valid medical and psychological sources.
I personally feel that we owe it to those diagnosed with NPD, and those close to them, to present the diagnosis honestly, fairly, neutrally and accurately, without any kind of subjectivity, for or against.
But there will be an ongoing problem. Those with NPD may be unreliable, if not quite resistant, to objectively discuss NPD or any egosyntonic disorder. Then you have the "victims" that are quite vicious and heavily biased. That said, I believe the victims deserve to be heard. I personally feel a lot of empathy for their experiences. I believe you can find out a lot about NPD by asking someone that was in a relationship with the subject. What bothers me though, is the expectations that may later validate more misinformation, and cruel behavior and attitudes against those with NPD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.230.145 ( talk) 21:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I have already learned a little about what NPD really is from trying to straighten out this article (by interrogatng low flying mental health professionals, NOT from my own knowledge), as more good faith editors, without agenda, weigh in with valid, cited material, I am hoping to learn more.
Because of the plethora of misinformation already available, I am hoping we can try to achieve this by sticking to citing sources that people can, at least partially (such as PUBMED), check for themselves, rather than obscure paper only sources?
Let's do it, huh? -- Zeraeph 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I have removed that edit for now as uncited, because it is a concept that seems to me (for some time) may have only originated in the amateur "online world of NPD". However if I am wrong about that I hope we can find valid, verifiable citations, from reputable academic or medical sources to not only support it but hopefully expand it into a subsection.-- Zeraeph 12:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I made the final section more concise by removing tautology and other repetition. I also removed some rather unsubstantiated assertions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.237.81.156 ( talk) 13:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
remove link to suite101 site, as i got such response from system: "The following text is what triggered our spam filter: http://www_suite101_com" Dr.Gangino 19:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
@Zeraeph: Look, its a valid contemporary book addressing NPD and is readily available at all major booksellers and libraries. In response to your reference of WP-EL, there was no external link, just an ISBN # which Wikipedia automatically adds a link to (to its own ISBN search). And to your reference to WP-RS, this book has a endorsing foreword by James Masterson (the man himself!), and its published by Simon and Shuster. Sorry if the author is just a lowly LCSW, but again, it was placed under a "Further Reading" section, not references or sources. So, please reconsider adding this section, which you let stand for at least several weeks until some kid vandalized it, now all of a sudden its not restored because its no longer valid? And no, I am not the author, nor do I have a vested interest in the sales of this book. 24.38.116.118 17:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I second that too. This article has had a long history with the author of the afforementioned book trying to promote his work via wikipedia, posting in the talk pages under aliases and sock puppets. This can only hurt our encyclopaedia. 84.254.51.56 07:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Citations and WP:RS are vitally important to this article, and not just because it's topic concerns a medical diagnosis, affecting many people directly and indirectly, though that should be more than enough reason.
There are people (who, may, possibly, need to get out more) who spend a lot of time insisting that this particular article is full of factual errors, whether it is or not, so, in order to keep such critics firmly in their rightful place, it is vital to ensure the latter, and to ensure that can be reliably verified at all times. ;o) -- Zeraeph 18:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, the second paragraph in the "Clinical Experience" section, the one starting with "In common practice...", is lifted word-for-word from Alan Rappoport's "Co-Narcissism" paper. I deleted it and noted this in my deletion comment - why did you revert it Zeraeph? You should make your reasons clear in your edit comment or here. Steve Carlson Talk 04:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
See WP:MEDMOS, you can't use opinion pieces, even from the Times, as sources in a medical article! It also contains some seriously weird misinformation. -- Zeraeph 19:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The article states 'An over-sensitive temperament at birth' as one of the causes of NPD. What does being 'over-sensitive at birth' mean? How is this diagnosed or defined?
Needs to be re-defined...Dr. Vaknin notes clinical hypersensitivity as adults... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.211.16.51 ( talk) 03:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
While the term may have first been recorded in print in 1972 by Kohut, after his decades of doing psychoanalytic work with narcissists, the term has not stood in isolation and it is a well-recognized term because what the rage INDICATES - the inner emotional state.
See PubMed - Items 1 - 19 of 19One page. 1: Related Articles, LinksJosephs L.
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Psychosocial situation of living donors: moods, complaints, and self-image before and after liver transplantation. Med Sci Monit. 2005 Nov;11(11):CR503-9. PMID: 16258393 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]3: Related Articles, LinksGutheil TG, Simon RI.
Narcissistic dimensions of expert witness practice. J Am Acad Psychiatry Law. 2005;33(1):55-8. PMID: 15809240 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]4: Related Articles, LinksArlow JA, Baudry FD.
Flaubert's Madame Bovary: a study in envy and revenge. Psychoanal Q. 2002 Apr;71(2):213-33. PMID: 11962099 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]5: Related Articles, LinksMeloy JR.
Spousal homicide and the subsequent staging of a sexual homicide at a distant location. J Forensic Sci. 2002 Mar;47(2):395-8. PMID: 11908617 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]6: Related Articles, LinksRhodewalt F, Morf CC.
On self-aggrandizement and anger: a temporal analysis of narcissism and affective reactions to success and failure. J Pers Soc Psychol. 1998 Mar;74(3):672-85. PMID: 9523411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]7: Related Articles, LinksWaska RT.
Precursors to masochistic and dependent character development. Am J Psychoanal. 1997 Sep;57(3):253-67. PMID: 9335941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]8: Related Articles, LinksLansky MR.
Shame and suicide in Sophocles' Ajax. Psychoanal Q. 1996 Oct;65(4):761-86. PMID: 8933616 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]9: Related Articles, LinksChessick RD.
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and per Google Scholar, minus any mention of Vaknin - 1880 incidences... http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22narcissistic+rage%22+-vaknin
While this is not MY experience with those with NPD (even finding the condition worsening), I HAVE seen the studies confirming this about AsPDs (who, of course, are an artificial construct not necessarily identical to psychopaths or other extreme classifications. I have not seen any studies for NPDs, tho I have heard this about NPDs, too, except in therapists' reports about their own patients. Can anyone find a clinical study confirming this? Otherwise, it's not likely to last long. Spotted Owl ( talk) 07:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The term "narcissistic" has been around since the Greeks and has gained various meanings and interpretations over time. Also the psychoanalytic school (Kohut and such) uses the term differently. Since this article has the template {{DSM_personality_disorders}} at the bottom, I believe that the article should stick to the formal definitions of the diagnostic categories used today. Especially and article on DSM personality disorders should be about the relevant DSM personality disorder. I think including the ICD-10 is important as these two main bodies developing classifications pertaining to world-wide use are seeking to work together so that the meanings of terms are agreed upon. But, my opinion is that the many other uses of the term, including by people in the mental health field, should not be the majority of this particular article. Mattisse 19:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I.m not too sure what you guys are talking about. We already have separate narcissism and Narcissism_(psychology) articles. Mind you I think there should be separate narcissistic rage, supply and injury articles. -- Penbat ( talk) 14:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is full of nonsense. Nearly all of the "facts" provided in it point to mere anti-social behavior. If you were to apply this to the current generation of our teenage population, we could argue that all of them have naricissitic personality disorders based on what was provided here. Haruyasha ( talk) 09:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
What about famous people? Many of them are narcissistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.130.136.199 ( talk) 14:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree that sources should be found about the connection between narcissism and fame 78.130.136.199 ( talk) 00:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds the beginning of the page to present a blatant contradiction (words in caps are the contradiction)?:
"the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as 'a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, NEED FOR ADMIRATION, and a lack of empathy.' The narcissist is described as TURNING INWARD FOR GRATIFICATION RATHER THAN DEPENDING ON OTHERS" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.248.176 ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
I am currently enrolled in my graduating year in Psychology, in my Abnormal Psychology class my professor a psychotherapist, specializing in NPD and Borderline personality disorder for the past 40 years, stated that etiology of the disorder is actually, and I paraphrase, "There is a stage in the life of everyone where a person has grandiose tendencies or is a narcassist, if during this stage in early childhood development, their parents do not constantly praise and admire their child, the person will develop what I call grandiose-type narcissistic personality disorder. The person will become fixated in that stage of their life and continue to seek others that will praise or admire them. They may enter the field of say Astronomy, and quickly rise to the top, receiving awards and praise from their peers, but they will then fall, because they were not in the field because they loved Astronomy, they wanted the praise of being at the top. I, for instance, practice psychology because I love it, I also want to do well in treating my patients and make money, but if I had narcissistic personality disorder I would do it only to climb to the top and receive praise. The participant will require mirroring transference, they seek from their therapist, someone who will praise them and value them like their parents didn't do enough. The other type of narcissistic personality disorder is enfeebled type, this is not talked about by the DSM, but it has similar symptoms. Enfeebled personality disorders occurs when the person in a stage of their early childhood development does not have someone who they believe is infallible and omniscient. It is normal for a child for much of their life to look at mom or dad as someone that knows everything, they're always strong and know whats right or wrong. As the child matures they will become more and more aware that their parent is intelligent but not infallible-- and this is healthy this is normal. If a child however, sees too often that their parent doesn't know something or cries or is too weak, then they will remain, in Freudian terms, fixated in this stage and seek out important celebrities or top professors to latch on to so they can idealize them. These patients, in therapy seek someone who will be perfect and omnipotent. They show idealizing transference. Often, particularly with young therapists, the therapist will say "oh stop I'm not actually perfect, its okay to be flawed" and the enfeebled narcissist will say "oh look not only are you perfect, you're modest too." These are the patients that their therapist might burp and they will say "wow how insightful." As you may have been able to discern this professor is eclectic but applies modern psychodynamic theory, as well as humanist theory, especially to his therapy. Nonymous-raz ( talk) 15:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Bitsnpieces, you removed:
And you added:
Can you provide more information? Were the references you removed bad in some way? Can you provide references for the new material? And what exactly is meant by "prognosis is very poor?" "Poor" as in it's incurable, or as in the person will have a terrible quality of life, or what? Axlrosen ( talk) 12:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Is there a reason why Savior complex redirects here? The folk definition of that term indicates someone who (falsely) believes that they can save or help someone else. That doesn't seem to quite meet the level of "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy."
Is savior complex, then, also a clinical term synonymous with NPD, and/or just used incorrectly in common usage? 67.182.218.55 ( talk) 22:31, 11 December 2009 (UTC)