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This article is the subject of an educational assignment at Shenandoah University supported by WikiProject Psychology and the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2012 Q1 term. Further details are available on the course page.
Above message substituted from {{WAP assignment}} on 15:08, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
The cause is currently posted as "unknown". Is it not well established that Narcissism is caused by childhood abuse/neglect and epigenetics? The general consensus seems to be threefold which are: (1) pathological pampering (typically due to a narcissistic caregiver projecting onto the child an idealized perception of them to satisfy the narcissists beliefs in the child being a perfect extension of themselves), (2) rejection of child (often in a environment of conditional attention, high criticism, and hyper-competitiveness), (3) epigenetic inheritance from recent ancestors with NPD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyrus Freedman ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hi, coming in from cognitive sciences, I support what you are writing. I'm working on this from my side working in cognitive science teams and have the research articles at my fingertips, so let's prepare a paragraph her and transfer it to the paragraph. I can add that when reading up on - even just the wikipedia articles on anti-social personality disorder - a spectrum disorder on "4 axes and a volume button": narcissism (20-80%), psychopaty (20-80%), machiavellianism (20-80%), sadism (20-80%); relevant terminology: sociopathy/theocracy and culturopathy) - have a malfunctioning inner brain: hippocampus up to 18% smaller -amygdala-striatum-nucleus accumbens and the cingulum neural pathways connecting them and taking care of the feedback loops on what to do with all the incoming information from the multiple senses; so what comes out is anti-social - not according to what is the social norm, socially acceptable and appropriate. [1] [2]
Sincerely, SvenAERTS ( talk) 10:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- I added a paragraph in /info/en/?search=Personality_disorder#Malfunctioning_inner_brain_-_hippocampus,_amygdala - maybe we can refer to that. SvenAERTS ( talk) 10:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
References
-
^ Nunes, Paulo Menezes; Wenzel, Amy; Borges, Karinne Tavares; Porto, Cristianne Ribeiro; Caminha, Renato Maiato; de Oliveira, Irismar Reis (2009-08).
"Volumes of the hippocampus and amygdala in patients with borderline personality disorder: a meta-analysis". Journal of Personality Disorders. 23 (4): 333–345.
doi:
10.1521/pedi.2009.23.4.333.
ISSN
1943-2763.
PMID
19663654.
{{ cite journal}}: Check date values in:|date=( help) -
^ Kaya, Suheda; Yildirim, Hanefi; Atmaca, Murad (2020-05).
"Reduced hippocampus and amygdala volumes in antisocial personality disorder". Journal of Clinical Neuroscience: Official Journal of the Neurosurgical Society of Australasia. 75: 199–203.
doi:
10.1016/j.jocn.2020.01.048.
ISSN
1532-2653.
PMID
32334739.
{{ cite journal}}: Check date values in:|date=( help)
Interesting new study suggests grandiose narcs are psychopaths and vulnerable narcs hide low self-esteem
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886921001550
Article on Psychology Today concerning the study:
In the Signs and symptoms section, I'm really confused by the sentence that begins Self-confidence (a strong sense of self) is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD; thus, people with NPD typically value themselves over others ...
1. is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD sounds like a very awkward and obtuse way of saying simply is not one of the traits of NPD.
2. Why mention what are not traits of NPD? Should every trait in existance that is not a trait of NPD be mentioned?
3. Unclear what Self-confidence has to do with valuing one's self over others. Why are these two traits even mentioned in the same sentence?
4. Why thus ? The part of the sentence after thus does not sound at all like it follows from the part of the sentence before thus. If anything, it seems that just the opposite might be the case.
I don't know enough about the subject to fix it myself.-- Dr.bobbs ( talk) 02:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
The article gives no hint of the real world consequences of narcissistic abuse, the fact that a relationship with a narcissist can lead to a lifetime of slavery or suicide. It gives no focus to the fact that narcissists are deeply dangerous and destructive people. It seems to speak of it as primarily a disorder affecting the individual. Rather it is primarily a disorder affecting others. 81.96.150.61 ( talk) 08:58, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Discussion of the concept and validity of grandiose/thick-skinned and vulnerable/thin-skinned subtypes of narcissistic subtypes is better suited to a subhead in the Narcissistic personality disorder article than in 1 or 2 stand alone articles. Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories.
The current article Vulnerable narcissism lacks both content and meaningful sources and could be distilled down to a single paragraph. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 08:24, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @
Wiki-psyc: I disagree with this merge, and I think
Vulnerable narcissism should be restored. The type has many differences with the overt type. For example:
- Try to give the The Maladaptive Covert Narcissism Scale test to an overt narcissist. They will probably score low.
- Try to give the Narcissistic Personality Inventory test to a covert narcissist. They will probably score low – which is why the category was created in the first place: some narcissists didn't fit in the book.
- Covert narcissism overlaps in many ways with Borderline Personality Disorder, overt narcissism does not.
- Overt narcissism tends to be more impermeable to shame (via grandiosity), while covert narcissism often faces shame.
- Overt narcissism lacks emotional empathy, but often does not lack cognitive empathy. Covert narcissism on the other hand is more likely to lack both types of empathy (which leads to avoidant lifestyle, lack of social skills, etc.)
- Try to face a covert narcissist and an overt narcissist. They will definitely look and behave differently. The covert narcissist will lack all the megalomaniac aspects of the overt narcissist. You will notice an overt narcissist, much less a covert narcissist.
- Overt narcissists love being at the center of the attention, covert narcissists hate it.
- The consensus in the field is that vulnerable narcissism constitutes an own disorder, with a core in common with overt narcissism
- -- Grufo ( talk) 03:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @
Wiki-psyc: I disagree with this merge, and I think
Vulnerable narcissism should be restored. The type has many differences with the overt type. For example:
- Hi Grufo. I agree that there are differences. I agree that a revert is possible and worthy of discussion. I have not read that there is clinical consensus (vs an amateur consensus) building for "vulnerable narcissism" to be a separate disorder. Some references might be helpful for the discussion. The clinical literature seems to be migrating over the last decade toward abandoning the idea that NPD is a homogeneous disorder and instead, has at least two subtypes and maybe as many as five. The rationale for substypes rather than stand alone disorders is that they still share a core. The DSM editors proposed an alternate classification scheme for personality disorders in the DSM-5 appendix that is under consideration and that supports this trend toward seeing personility disorders as having subtypes, dimensions, levels, and mental states. This reference from the University of Pennsylvania is helpful. Subtypes, Dimensions, Levels, and Mental States in Narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder Here is a link to the article that was merged Vulnerable narcissism.
- The question I would ask is should we as Wikipedia editors adhere to the mainstream clincal perspective when writing an article about a clinical condition, and should we be careful to avoid presenting fringe ideas as consensus? There seems to be a lot of that happening with respect to the topic of Narcissism, in general, here. I look forward to others comments. Thank you for engaging this discussion. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 12:29, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Wiki-psyc: Of course Wikipedia should adhere to the mainstream clincal perspective. But the DSM – which is a very good source – is not the only mainstream clincal perspective – its importance fades away already by simply going out of the United States – and what matters for Wikipedia is the corpus of peer reviewed academic research. There are many reasons why vulnerable narcissism is not listed in the DSM (probably the main being that it is a relatively new classification, made in the 80s), but if you look for peer reviewed studies that acknowledge it, there is quite some literature (you can find a good list here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01305/full). -- Grufo ( talk) 16:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Grufo: That article suggests that we have common ground. It is very consistent with my understanding of the the state-of-the-art. It goes further to say that individuals high on the scale of one subtype can flip back and fourth with the other subtype and that they have the same core (hence the term "subtype"). To this researcher they fall under the NPD umbrella as subtypes and are not stand alone conditions.
- There are areas of substantial debate that surround the move aware from a homogeneous definition of Narcissism. There is general consensus that NPD is not a homogeneous condition, but there are multiple competing theories about it heterogeneousness that are occupying researchers such as
- * clearly defining the difference between normal and pathological narcissism
- * understanding the role of self-esteem in narcissism,
- * finding consensus on classifications and definitions of sub-types such as "grandiose" and "vulnerable dimensions" or variants of the these,
- * understanding what are the central versus peripheral, primary versus secondary features/characteristics of narcissism,
- * determining if there is consensual description,
- * agreeing on the etiological factors,
- * deciding what field or discipline should narcissism be studied,
- * agreeing on how it can be assessed/measured, and
- * agreeing on its representation in textbooks and classification manuals.
- And in all of this, vulnerable narcissism is not being debated as a possible separate and unique condition, but rather a "subtype" or a "state". I believe this significant work and debate should be captured in the NPD article rather than positioned as a forgone conclusion in a separate article. I posted a "subtypes section" to hopefully pull in more information on the debate here Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories I have enjoyed this exchange. Thanks. I enjoyed the article you posted. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 17:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Wiki-psyc: According to that article they tend to merge above a certain threshold, but they are two very distinct types below that threshold (this thing about the threshold though is what that particular article claims, so it shouldn't be taken for granted). But the question is not whether they have a common core or not (the consensus is that they do), but whether vulnerable narcissism is a subtype of NPD or not. The main problem is that NPD today (according to the DSM) means only overt narcissism (the tests used to assess it is the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, and vulnerable narcissists would score low in that test). So according to the DSM vulnerable narcissism is simply non-existent (sad but true). I definitely think that both types (covert and overt) are subtypes of narcissism, but they are not subtypes of overt narcissism. If the definition of NPD changed we would list them together, but today NPD means overt narcissism. Therefore we should not list vulnerable narcissism inside narcissistic personality disorder simply because today it is not (a covert narcissist would not be diagnosed as having NPD). If I am not wrong, officially today both covert and overt narcissisms are subclinical conditions, but only the second one when it becomes extreme has an official personality disorder listed in the DSM (which inherited the obsolete "megalomaniac personality disorder"). -- Grufo ( talk) 18:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Grufo: The main problem is that NPD today (according to the DSM) means only overt narcissism (the tests used to assess it is the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, and vulnerable narcissists would score low in that test). So according to the DSM vulnerable narcissism is simply non-existent (sad but true).~ Grufo
- There might be a misunderstanding about the of the role of the DSM, official labels, and inventories in clinical practice vs their role in research. In the former, these things are not critical to treating/managing the patient - simply there are no specific treatments under these classifications. In the latter, the crisp definitions, advanced tests, and cataloging are not there yet because they are in development; and hopefully in time, these will happen and eventually subtype specific treatments will follow. We are years away from any of that but working our way toward it as a scientific community.
- It sounds like you may be advocating for this to become a stand alone condition. I'm not saying you are doing this intentionally - I trust you are operating in good faith here - but you may be unintentionally advocating for something that isn't really isn't here yet.
- Our job is really to report, without passion, on the state-of-the-art. And in that context, we are talking about research aspect of NPD when we speak of these things.
- Lastly, the DSM is not a tool to stifle research or to determine what is and what isn't. It is a consensus document that provides researchers with a universal platform to organize their work and a common language to communicate to each other (not limit initiative). This has been a great chat. Thanks again for taking the time with me. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 20:26, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Wiki-psyc:
It sounds like you may be advocating for this to become a stand alone condition.
Well, it is a stand-alone condition. A covert narcissist will not become an overt narcissist (and vice versa), although according to the literature both types can temporarily switch (an overt narcissist can temporarily go through a collapsed state that looks fairly similar to the ground state of a covert narcissist, and a covert narcissist can go through a period of temporary grandiosity – the article above mentions these switches as well)
And in that context, we are talking about research aspect of NPD when we speak of these things.
I agree. What I am saying is that it is technically incorrect to insert vulnerable narcissism under Narcissistic Personality Disorder, simply because vulnerable narcissists are not diagnosed as such. Vulnerable narcissism might be moved under Narcissism though. Grufo ( talk) 20:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Like "Vulnerable narcissism", Malignant narcissism is a another subtype of NPD that is can be covered in the context of a discussion about all of the proposed substypes ( Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories ). There is not a lot in the clinical literature about malignant narcissism and the current article (15 years old and 1,500 edits) says very little about it. The article is mostly fluff. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 13:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Wiki-psyc, I actually thought of adding "malignant narcissism" to the german wikipedia, as an individual article. There are not very many scientific articels about it, however as it is a combination of "normal" narcissism with aspects of additional personality disorders, such as the Antisocial personality disorder, but also Borderline personality disorder (as this article suggests: https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/492228) and Psychopathy or a Sadistic personality disorder (as suggested here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20856182/) I would advocate for improving the article instead of merging it. Llydia ( talk) 15:25, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback! As you say, there is little in the literature on Malignant narcissism and even one of the pilot-studies you cite characterizes itself as an "exploratory study sought to develop..." Improving the article would be great but it just might be that Wikipedia is getting ahead of the science. There are 40 articles mentioning Malignant narcissism with virtually no content. See list It's an impressive name that creates a vivid visual, but what is there to write about it in 2021? Wiki-psyc ( talk) 19:28, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Shelve this for later. I don't think we can actually assess what should and shouldn't be a WP:SPINOFF because of current state of the NPD article. It's a mess. This article should at least be comprehensible to a reader before we continue this. -- Xurizuri ( talk) 03:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- I would like to pitch in that very few articles discuss the *subjective* experience of dealing with a narcissist, and this one actually does. NPDs are destructive to everyone around them and for the layperson there is very little clear information on how narcissists cause harm to families and organizations.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jenkstom ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
These supply and malignancy portions, while popular, are mostly bunk from self help books. 2601:283:C002:1D60:FC81:6514:A80:92F6 ( talk) 05:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Even though there is a news article that references it, it doesn't seem to fit WP: Identifying reliable sources (medicine). Yoshimatu ( talk) 14:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
The article is very confusing in the discussion of types. Grandiose and exhibitionist narcissists are the same. Closet, vulnerable, and covert subtypes all refer to "vulnerable" narcissists, which is the current term researchers use. What is missing, which I will add is the new subtype: Communal narcissist. Dalancer ( talk) 17:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
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| This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Narcissistic personality disorder article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
|
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4Auto-archiving period: 2 years
|
| Narcissistic personality disorder has been listed as a level-5 vital article in Biology, Health. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as Start-Class by WikiProject Vital Articles. |
|
| Narcissistic personality disorder is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
|
| Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically
review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Narcissistic personality disorder.
|
|
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This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is the subject of an educational assignment at Shenandoah University supported by WikiProject Psychology and the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2012 Q1 term. Further details are available on the course page.
Above message substituted from {{WAP assignment}} on 15:08, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
The cause is currently posted as "unknown". Is it not well established that Narcissism is caused by childhood abuse/neglect and epigenetics? The general consensus seems to be threefold which are: (1) pathological pampering (typically due to a narcissistic caregiver projecting onto the child an idealized perception of them to satisfy the narcissists beliefs in the child being a perfect extension of themselves), (2) rejection of child (often in a environment of conditional attention, high criticism, and hyper-competitiveness), (3) epigenetic inheritance from recent ancestors with NPD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyrus Freedman ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hi, coming in from cognitive sciences, I support what you are writing. I'm working on this from my side working in cognitive science teams and have the research articles at my fingertips, so let's prepare a paragraph her and transfer it to the paragraph. I can add that when reading up on - even just the wikipedia articles on anti-social personality disorder - a spectrum disorder on "4 axes and a volume button": narcissism (20-80%), psychopaty (20-80%), machiavellianism (20-80%), sadism (20-80%); relevant terminology: sociopathy/theocracy and culturopathy) - have a malfunctioning inner brain: hippocampus up to 18% smaller -amygdala-striatum-nucleus accumbens and the cingulum neural pathways connecting them and taking care of the feedback loops on what to do with all the incoming information from the multiple senses; so what comes out is anti-social - not according to what is the social norm, socially acceptable and appropriate. [1] [2]
Sincerely, SvenAERTS ( talk) 10:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- I added a paragraph in /info/en/?search=Personality_disorder#Malfunctioning_inner_brain_-_hippocampus,_amygdala - maybe we can refer to that. SvenAERTS ( talk) 10:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
References
-
^ Nunes, Paulo Menezes; Wenzel, Amy; Borges, Karinne Tavares; Porto, Cristianne Ribeiro; Caminha, Renato Maiato; de Oliveira, Irismar Reis (2009-08).
"Volumes of the hippocampus and amygdala in patients with borderline personality disorder: a meta-analysis". Journal of Personality Disorders. 23 (4): 333–345.
doi:
10.1521/pedi.2009.23.4.333.
ISSN
1943-2763.
PMID
19663654.
{{ cite journal}}: Check date values in:|date=( help) -
^ Kaya, Suheda; Yildirim, Hanefi; Atmaca, Murad (2020-05).
"Reduced hippocampus and amygdala volumes in antisocial personality disorder". Journal of Clinical Neuroscience: Official Journal of the Neurosurgical Society of Australasia. 75: 199–203.
doi:
10.1016/j.jocn.2020.01.048.
ISSN
1532-2653.
PMID
32334739.
{{ cite journal}}: Check date values in:|date=( help)
Interesting new study suggests grandiose narcs are psychopaths and vulnerable narcs hide low self-esteem
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886921001550
Article on Psychology Today concerning the study:
In the Signs and symptoms section, I'm really confused by the sentence that begins Self-confidence (a strong sense of self) is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD; thus, people with NPD typically value themselves over others ...
1. is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD sounds like a very awkward and obtuse way of saying simply is not one of the traits of NPD.
2. Why mention what are not traits of NPD? Should every trait in existance that is not a trait of NPD be mentioned?
3. Unclear what Self-confidence has to do with valuing one's self over others. Why are these two traits even mentioned in the same sentence?
4. Why thus ? The part of the sentence after thus does not sound at all like it follows from the part of the sentence before thus. If anything, it seems that just the opposite might be the case.
I don't know enough about the subject to fix it myself.-- Dr.bobbs ( talk) 02:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
The article gives no hint of the real world consequences of narcissistic abuse, the fact that a relationship with a narcissist can lead to a lifetime of slavery or suicide. It gives no focus to the fact that narcissists are deeply dangerous and destructive people. It seems to speak of it as primarily a disorder affecting the individual. Rather it is primarily a disorder affecting others. 81.96.150.61 ( talk) 08:58, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Discussion of the concept and validity of grandiose/thick-skinned and vulnerable/thin-skinned subtypes of narcissistic subtypes is better suited to a subhead in the Narcissistic personality disorder article than in 1 or 2 stand alone articles. Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories.
The current article Vulnerable narcissism lacks both content and meaningful sources and could be distilled down to a single paragraph. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 08:24, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @
Wiki-psyc: I disagree with this merge, and I think
Vulnerable narcissism should be restored. The type has many differences with the overt type. For example:
- Try to give the The Maladaptive Covert Narcissism Scale test to an overt narcissist. They will probably score low.
- Try to give the Narcissistic Personality Inventory test to a covert narcissist. They will probably score low – which is why the category was created in the first place: some narcissists didn't fit in the book.
- Covert narcissism overlaps in many ways with Borderline Personality Disorder, overt narcissism does not.
- Overt narcissism tends to be more impermeable to shame (via grandiosity), while covert narcissism often faces shame.
- Overt narcissism lacks emotional empathy, but often does not lack cognitive empathy. Covert narcissism on the other hand is more likely to lack both types of empathy (which leads to avoidant lifestyle, lack of social skills, etc.)
- Try to face a covert narcissist and an overt narcissist. They will definitely look and behave differently. The covert narcissist will lack all the megalomaniac aspects of the overt narcissist. You will notice an overt narcissist, much less a covert narcissist.
- Overt narcissists love being at the center of the attention, covert narcissists hate it.
- The consensus in the field is that vulnerable narcissism constitutes an own disorder, with a core in common with overt narcissism
- -- Grufo ( talk) 03:20, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @
Wiki-psyc: I disagree with this merge, and I think
Vulnerable narcissism should be restored. The type has many differences with the overt type. For example:
- Hi Grufo. I agree that there are differences. I agree that a revert is possible and worthy of discussion. I have not read that there is clinical consensus (vs an amateur consensus) building for "vulnerable narcissism" to be a separate disorder. Some references might be helpful for the discussion. The clinical literature seems to be migrating over the last decade toward abandoning the idea that NPD is a homogeneous disorder and instead, has at least two subtypes and maybe as many as five. The rationale for substypes rather than stand alone disorders is that they still share a core. The DSM editors proposed an alternate classification scheme for personality disorders in the DSM-5 appendix that is under consideration and that supports this trend toward seeing personility disorders as having subtypes, dimensions, levels, and mental states. This reference from the University of Pennsylvania is helpful. Subtypes, Dimensions, Levels, and Mental States in Narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder Here is a link to the article that was merged Vulnerable narcissism.
- The question I would ask is should we as Wikipedia editors adhere to the mainstream clincal perspective when writing an article about a clinical condition, and should we be careful to avoid presenting fringe ideas as consensus? There seems to be a lot of that happening with respect to the topic of Narcissism, in general, here. I look forward to others comments. Thank you for engaging this discussion. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 12:29, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Wiki-psyc: Of course Wikipedia should adhere to the mainstream clincal perspective. But the DSM – which is a very good source – is not the only mainstream clincal perspective – its importance fades away already by simply going out of the United States – and what matters for Wikipedia is the corpus of peer reviewed academic research. There are many reasons why vulnerable narcissism is not listed in the DSM (probably the main being that it is a relatively new classification, made in the 80s), but if you look for peer reviewed studies that acknowledge it, there is quite some literature (you can find a good list here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01305/full). -- Grufo ( talk) 16:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Grufo: That article suggests that we have common ground. It is very consistent with my understanding of the the state-of-the-art. It goes further to say that individuals high on the scale of one subtype can flip back and fourth with the other subtype and that they have the same core (hence the term "subtype"). To this researcher they fall under the NPD umbrella as subtypes and are not stand alone conditions.
- There are areas of substantial debate that surround the move aware from a homogeneous definition of Narcissism. There is general consensus that NPD is not a homogeneous condition, but there are multiple competing theories about it heterogeneousness that are occupying researchers such as
- * clearly defining the difference between normal and pathological narcissism
- * understanding the role of self-esteem in narcissism,
- * finding consensus on classifications and definitions of sub-types such as "grandiose" and "vulnerable dimensions" or variants of the these,
- * understanding what are the central versus peripheral, primary versus secondary features/characteristics of narcissism,
- * determining if there is consensual description,
- * agreeing on the etiological factors,
- * deciding what field or discipline should narcissism be studied,
- * agreeing on how it can be assessed/measured, and
- * agreeing on its representation in textbooks and classification manuals.
- And in all of this, vulnerable narcissism is not being debated as a possible separate and unique condition, but rather a "subtype" or a "state". I believe this significant work and debate should be captured in the NPD article rather than positioned as a forgone conclusion in a separate article. I posted a "subtypes section" to hopefully pull in more information on the debate here Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories I have enjoyed this exchange. Thanks. I enjoyed the article you posted. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 17:46, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Wiki-psyc: According to that article they tend to merge above a certain threshold, but they are two very distinct types below that threshold (this thing about the threshold though is what that particular article claims, so it shouldn't be taken for granted). But the question is not whether they have a common core or not (the consensus is that they do), but whether vulnerable narcissism is a subtype of NPD or not. The main problem is that NPD today (according to the DSM) means only overt narcissism (the tests used to assess it is the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, and vulnerable narcissists would score low in that test). So according to the DSM vulnerable narcissism is simply non-existent (sad but true). I definitely think that both types (covert and overt) are subtypes of narcissism, but they are not subtypes of overt narcissism. If the definition of NPD changed we would list them together, but today NPD means overt narcissism. Therefore we should not list vulnerable narcissism inside narcissistic personality disorder simply because today it is not (a covert narcissist would not be diagnosed as having NPD). If I am not wrong, officially today both covert and overt narcissisms are subclinical conditions, but only the second one when it becomes extreme has an official personality disorder listed in the DSM (which inherited the obsolete "megalomaniac personality disorder"). -- Grufo ( talk) 18:34, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Grufo: The main problem is that NPD today (according to the DSM) means only overt narcissism (the tests used to assess it is the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, and vulnerable narcissists would score low in that test). So according to the DSM vulnerable narcissism is simply non-existent (sad but true).~ Grufo
- There might be a misunderstanding about the of the role of the DSM, official labels, and inventories in clinical practice vs their role in research. In the former, these things are not critical to treating/managing the patient - simply there are no specific treatments under these classifications. In the latter, the crisp definitions, advanced tests, and cataloging are not there yet because they are in development; and hopefully in time, these will happen and eventually subtype specific treatments will follow. We are years away from any of that but working our way toward it as a scientific community.
- It sounds like you may be advocating for this to become a stand alone condition. I'm not saying you are doing this intentionally - I trust you are operating in good faith here - but you may be unintentionally advocating for something that isn't really isn't here yet.
- Our job is really to report, without passion, on the state-of-the-art. And in that context, we are talking about research aspect of NPD when we speak of these things.
- Lastly, the DSM is not a tool to stifle research or to determine what is and what isn't. It is a consensus document that provides researchers with a universal platform to organize their work and a common language to communicate to each other (not limit initiative). This has been a great chat. Thanks again for taking the time with me. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 20:26, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Wiki-psyc:
It sounds like you may be advocating for this to become a stand alone condition.
Well, it is a stand-alone condition. A covert narcissist will not become an overt narcissist (and vice versa), although according to the literature both types can temporarily switch (an overt narcissist can temporarily go through a collapsed state that looks fairly similar to the ground state of a covert narcissist, and a covert narcissist can go through a period of temporary grandiosity – the article above mentions these switches as well)
And in that context, we are talking about research aspect of NPD when we speak of these things.
I agree. What I am saying is that it is technically incorrect to insert vulnerable narcissism under Narcissistic Personality Disorder, simply because vulnerable narcissists are not diagnosed as such. Vulnerable narcissism might be moved under Narcissism though. Grufo ( talk) 20:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Like "Vulnerable narcissism", Malignant narcissism is a another subtype of NPD that is can be covered in the context of a discussion about all of the proposed substypes ( Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories ). There is not a lot in the clinical literature about malignant narcissism and the current article (15 years old and 1,500 edits) says very little about it. The article is mostly fluff. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 13:32, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Wiki-psyc, I actually thought of adding "malignant narcissism" to the german wikipedia, as an individual article. There are not very many scientific articels about it, however as it is a combination of "normal" narcissism with aspects of additional personality disorders, such as the Antisocial personality disorder, but also Borderline personality disorder (as this article suggests: https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/492228) and Psychopathy or a Sadistic personality disorder (as suggested here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20856182/) I would advocate for improving the article instead of merging it. Llydia ( talk) 15:25, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback! As you say, there is little in the literature on Malignant narcissism and even one of the pilot-studies you cite characterizes itself as an "exploratory study sought to develop..." Improving the article would be great but it just might be that Wikipedia is getting ahead of the science. There are 40 articles mentioning Malignant narcissism with virtually no content. See list It's an impressive name that creates a vivid visual, but what is there to write about it in 2021? Wiki-psyc ( talk) 19:28, 29 September 2021 (UTC)
- Shelve this for later. I don't think we can actually assess what should and shouldn't be a WP:SPINOFF because of current state of the NPD article. It's a mess. This article should at least be comprehensible to a reader before we continue this. -- Xurizuri ( talk) 03:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
- I would like to pitch in that very few articles discuss the *subjective* experience of dealing with a narcissist, and this one actually does. NPDs are destructive to everyone around them and for the layperson there is very little clear information on how narcissists cause harm to families and organizations.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jenkstom ( talk • contribs) 22:18, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
These supply and malignancy portions, while popular, are mostly bunk from self help books. 2601:283:C002:1D60:FC81:6514:A80:92F6 ( talk) 05:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Even though there is a news article that references it, it doesn't seem to fit WP: Identifying reliable sources (medicine). Yoshimatu ( talk) 14:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
The article is very confusing in the discussion of types. Grandiose and exhibitionist narcissists are the same. Closet, vulnerable, and covert subtypes all refer to "vulnerable" narcissists, which is the current term researchers use. What is missing, which I will add is the new subtype: Communal narcissist. Dalancer ( talk) 17:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
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