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there needs to be a proper section on npd and defense mechanisms. Splitting gets a mention but others may feature such as projection. -- Penbat ( talk) 16:54, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
It is proposed that Narcissistic personality disorder be part of the trial of a new template; see the green strip at the top of Pain where it has been in place for a couple of months. The purpose of this project is to encourage readers to edit, while equipping them with the basic tools. If you perceive a problem with this, or have any suggestions for improvement, please discuss at the project talk page. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 10:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
From my research on the subject I continuously see female suffers of NPD and male suffers as having completely different symptoms... within relationships and parenting. Perhaps different symptoms are presented in different degrees of severity. I think there is also a gender inequality where within the relationship there seems to be a higher degree of females with NPD. If it is equally balanced between males and females perhaps males are more likely to exhaust their NPD frustrations in the workforce whereas females are more likely to bring damage to romantic relationships. These are things that I have noticed in forums and documentaries and all sorts of places. It seems obvious to me that there are differences in gender roles but I can't find anything definitive which examines NPD specifically with regard to gender. If anyone could list some sources to cite from that would be greatly appreciated. I think it is very important NPD knowledge of course it is something that probably hasn't been thoroughly researched. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeUser5050 ( talk • contribs) 18:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
The character Eric Cartman from South Park would be a good addition to this section. The BP episode and the Fishsticks episode illustrate the delusions caused by NPD very well. I would have added him in myself but I was unable to find a good source to cite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.108.21 ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 27 December 2010
Interesting suggestion. I like the Fishsticks episode, with Cartman and his delusion about who wrote the joke, and Kanye West with his delusion that leave him convinced that there couldn't be a joke that he wouldn't immediately grasp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.88.109 ( talk) 03:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Reading a section on Devaluation and Idealization, I found a much more...appropriate terming of this section of the article. "In child development idealization and devaluation are quite normal. During the childhood development stage, individuals become capable of perceiving others as complex structures, containing both good and bad components. If the development stage is interrupted (by early childhood trauma, for example), these defense mechanisms may persist into adulthood."
It shows the problem as a MAY, recognizing that these issues are very much complex and hard to ultimately determine. I think this would be a great way to frame the dubious paragraph at the bottom of "Causes." In addition, it phrases the effects of childhood influence in a far more cautious manner than the one presented on the NPD article. However, the words to rewrite this myself are elusive. Should I be able to, I will do so, but I'd encourage anyone else whos a bit better at stringing words together than I am. (my writing style being best described as "taking forever to say nothing.") 74.132.249.206 ( talk) 23:28, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Narcissism seems to be confused with egomania with a lot of lay people and in Pop Psychology. Having studied Psychology and read a few text books on the topic, most Psychiatrists state that someone with NPD in fact hates themselves. Even though Humanist Psychology is written off by most academics because of there appears to be no theories in Humanism that have been proved factual, Humanism cannot actually lead to NPD. When people talk about narcissism in modern society that's not to say that NPD is rife. It just means that people are more self aware? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spyingcactus ( talk • contribs) 00:52, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the following from entitlement as just undue an dleaving just the first paragraph and a link to this article. There may be some use for it here. Dmcq ( talk) 11:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Narcissism
In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, seen in those who 'because of early frustrations...arrogate to themselves the right to demand lifelong reimbursement from fate. [1]
Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage. [2]
'John Murray (1964) in his/her now classic paper of narcissism and the ego ideal' laid great 'emphasis on narcissistic entitlement and the manner in which this reflects infantile pregenital narcissistic fixations' - something which led in turn to the 'notion of the "narcissistic triad". The narcissistic triad involves (1) narcissistic entitlement, (2) disappointment and disillusionment at the frustration of narcissistic needs, and (3) narcissistic rage'. [3]
Belief in the special, exceptional nature of 'narcissistic entitlement dictates that the patient has a right to life on his/her own terms...Such narcissistic entitlement plays a central role in borderline pathology, since the borderline sees himself as a special person with special rights and entitlements, such that any frustration of these entitled desires tends to undermine and often shatter the patient's self-esteem'. [4]
In the wake of Kohut's self-psychology, a valorisation of narcissistic entitlement might be said to have taken place, as 'the age of "normal narcissism" and normal narcissistic entitlement had arrived...[a] child's right and entitlement that its parents are obliged to proffer at the least the minimum requisite "self-object" soothing...to allow the infant/child to develop a sense of self-cohesion'. [5]
References
I’m editing this article as a part of my History and Systems of Psychology course and Shenandoah University, in conjunction with the APS Wikipedia Initiative. The article I will be using are: Narcissism and Narcissistic Defences in the Eating Disorders [1], Development and Validation of the Childhood Narcissism Scale [2]Narcissistic Personality Disorder [3]Narcissistic Personality Disorders: The Egotistical Pattern [4] Valentinesday1986 ( talk) 18:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
References
I think this paragraph: "To form a more accurate ideology of the mentality of one suffering from this disorder,Kent Daniel Glowinski's book Narcissistic personality disorder : poems is greatly recommended.The author delves into the mind of a narcissistic person and has composed a book of poems, very eerily written in a narcissistic individuals point of view." should be removed- it is completely subjective. Katiekillick ( talk) 19:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Narcissistic disorder being characterised by 'image obsession',that they must always appear good and strong people to everyone that observes them.
Many narcissistic traits are displayed in inferiority complexes ,and indeed I think people with low esteem are indeed more prone to it. People with overly-highself esteem tend to have more problems to do with recklessness (perceived invulnerability) rather than obsessively proving everyone that they're the best there is, after all, in their point of view, why should they have to prove it? Is there anything they have to prove anyway? Unlike Sinebot I'm not saying this is the rule, they may too afraid that they'll lose their perceived high status.
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There appears to be a contradiction in the article regarding the effectiveness of medication in treatment. The end of the first paragraph states simply that "pharmacotherapy is rarely effective", but the third paragraph discusses various circumstances in which medications can be "an effective addition" or even "extremely beneficial" to the patient. As someone with no knowledge of the subject, I think the section would benefit from some clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.57.101 ( talk) 08:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article needs a section on possible neurological etiologies of "Narsicistic Personality Disorder" and any pharmaceutical treatments. It is heavily biased towards the almost- completely theoretical field of Psychology and as such seems to have an underlying departure from established scientific facts. As is well known, many, many people question the validity of many findings and theories in Psychology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.204.112 ( talk) 10:27, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
There has some debate on the differences between NPD and ASPD. Indeed, at first glance the disorders can appear quite similar. I think it might not be a bad idea to include some content in this article distinguishing NPD from ASPD (and two subcategories of ASPD: psychopathy and sociopathy) in order to emphasize the differences. From my understanding, people with NPD and people with ASPD share a few key symptoms such as interpersonal exploitation and lack of empathy, but people with NPD [and not ASPD] are relatively more narcissistic - albeit less crime-oriented and sadistic - than people with ASPD [but not NPD]. -- 82.31.164.172 ( talk) 09:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
However, I was reverted when I tried to fix the criteria. There are other major errors. For example, the narcissictic personality is incorrectly described as "sadistic" and other major misunderstandings. Apparently, editors have pieced together their own version from several diverse and conflicting sources. Hopefully, someone will be able to fix it without being instantly reverted. Farrajak ( talk) 01:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Can a narcissist love anyone other than himself? This is not stated in the article. Many narcissists fantasize about 'ideal love', but what does that mean to a narcissist? Would it be reciprocal, or would the narcissist seek only to be loved and looked up to? I cannot see how a narcissist could love anyone other than himself. A narcissist can be fixated on one person to whom he is attracted - but is it love? There is a similar issue regarding love and HPD, but no conclusion has been reached on Talk:Histrionic personality disorder. Jim Michael ( talk) 14:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
The numerous uses in this section of strikethrough, followed by "- this is not on the DSM-IV-TR criteria" or "not on DSM IV-TR criteria" seems to me to be highly inappropriate. Discussing the inclusion of those particular symptoms, and their validity with regard to the DSM IV-TR, is something that should take place here in the "Talk" section, not on the actual page for the reader to see. If the contributor believes the symptoms are not found in the DSM IV-TR, and therefore does not meet the criteria set forward by the opening statement of the section which read, "Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:", then the contributor should have deleted those symptoms on the Editing page and given the explanation for doing so there, rather than muddying up the article itself with strikethroughs and statements of invalidity.
The article should appear finished, not as if it were a draft. In other words, either talk about the errors in the "Talk" section, or edit them out in the "Edit" section. But please don't bleed all over the article and then leave it in that condition for everyone to see. This is not a school paper. The contributor is (probably) not the section writer's teacher. Leaving marks of correction all over the article is neither professional nor helpful to persons reading it in search of information on the topic at hand. Lunarmovements ( talk) 04:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I think it is a mistake to let DSM be the sole source and standard used for contributions of this sort to this NPD page. I think this section might be amended in some way to say "DSM states the following symptoms....", then followed by "Other authorities note the following additional symptoms....", which can then be individually documented. Unless, of course, it has been determined by the gods that this wiki page is a book report on DSM. There are many reasons that a committee doing an industry standards work like DSM may leave out valid and useful information, and I think it will be helpful to many readers if some of this other, perhaps more practical, info is mentioned in the page. For example, I have found the narcissistic chatter symptom is often my first clue that a person is affected by NPD. They love to talk about themselves and will shift the conversation back to this favorite subject even if the topic is changed by someone else. This item is not mentioned in the DSM symptom list. Another important set of symptoms relate to the fan club--the domination hierarchy that provides the narcissistic supply and works as the attack force against critics. This is not mentioned by the DSM symptom list. I would assert that any document describing NPD that does not deal with the domination hierarchy has seriously missed something. This is one of the prominent features of the condition that seriously affects other people. Not all of us are psychotherapists whose business is small or one-on-one meetings with troubled souls away from their real-life contexts. Some of us work daily in large organizations where the NPD person can become a big operator. Narcissists have minions, and minions go forth to do their dirty work. On three unrelated occasions in three different organizations, I have been jumped on en mass by a devoted cadre of intense followers because I disagreed with their fearless leader. For the reader like me, documentation of the NPD domination hierarchy issue might be the most helpful part of the page, especially in relation to a list of practical symptoms I can observe without having superpowers that enable me to peer into the depths of the person's heart and mind to learn that he is "envious" or that he is "preoccupied" with certain "thoughts and fantasies."--Aragorn 01:19, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
The Society and Culture section that lists Asuka Langley as an example cites a youtube video of a guy at an anime convention as the source...
At the very least, it should be made clear that it is fan speculation - if not removed altogether. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.183.88.209 ( talk) 17:29, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi All, I believe that although there is much debate regarding the disorder's presence in the DSM 5, the information is still included in DSM 5 and should therefore be present on the page. That being said, I believe that the following information should be displayed under diagnosis after the first 3 paragraphs:
However, according to the DSM-5, a diagnosis for Narcissistic Personality Disorder is indicated by 5 (or more) of the following symptoms:
-- Jkmx09 16 April 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkmx09 ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
As a victim of the so called Cult of the Narcissist I must say it is one of the most prevalent characteristics of the NPD world. It consumes its victims on its closed circle by imposing on them his or her lifestyle in a way that is abusive since it often uses excessive Projective Identification, i.e. pushes its close ones to become him temporarily. This consumes the cult of the Narcissist into a vicious cycle of believing they have the problems Narcissist has. It is imperative in my opinion to expose this information (included in the above link or elsewhere) for these 2 reasons.
1) It is very easy to not be aware of it because the word "Narcissist" implies to most Laymen just a "just preoccupied with oneself" sense, which is very dangerous to be considered it only stays at that
2) It is probably the most dangerous of the outcomes of this condition. i.e. The NPD patient is one, its victims might be more. -- 194.219.131.11 ( talk) 07:15, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
See my comment below in the "Symptoms" section about the lack of info in this article on the subject of the narcissistic domination hierarchy.Aragorn 14:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkshrews ( talk • contribs)
The described subtypes appear not to be those proposed by Millon, but rather a "mixed" variant of subtype systems. In the source I have read (and I unfortunately can't find it any more, it was a book preview from Google Books website), there were two classifications described. One was Millon's system including "unprincipled", "amorous", "compensatory", "elitist" and "fanatic" narcissism, and the other one included four different subtypes named "craving", "paranoid", "manipulative" and "phallic". "Malignant narcissism" wasn't included in any of the two systems. (I hope I remember them correctly - at least Millon proposed five subtypes, but didn't include malignant narcissism but instead a "fanatic" subtype.)
So if such subtype classifications are mentioned, maybe one should mention the different classifications apart from each other, and avoid messing them up... I hope I could help. As I said I don't find a reliable source any more, but there was one not long ago... -- 79.243.238.86 ( talk) 23:00, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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Hi - I believe that the diagnostic criteria for NPD in this article match the *draft* DSM-V criteria (which were a change from the DSM-IV criteria) but not the *final* DSM-V diagnostic criteria for NPD (which I'm looking at right now in the Kindle version of the DSM-V, and which essentially match the original DSM-IV criteria). There was a complicated debate about the definition of NPD and the personality disorders in the DSM-V (which I did not follow closely). At one point in a draft of DSM-V, I believe that NPD was removed as a standalone disorder. Then there was a proposed alternate dimensional diagnostic definition for the personality disorders as a group, then I believe for the final version the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for NPD itself were essentially restored (for a variety of reasons including the difficulty of using a dimensional model in therapy), while a dimensional definition of the personality disorders as a group was retained.
I'm not sure I'm getting that complicated history all correct. But what I *can* say for a fact is that I'm looking at the Kindle version of the DSM-V Fifth Edition right now, and here's the definition it shows for NPD:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: 1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements). 2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. 3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions). 4. Requires excessive admiration. 5. Has a sense of entitlement (i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations). 6. Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends). 7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. 8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her. 9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
American Psychiatric Publication (2016-02-13). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5(tm)): American Psychiatric Pub; 5 edition (Page 702). American Psychiatric Pub; 5 edition. Kindle Edition.
Hopefully someone who follows this topic more closely than I do can cross-check the definition in this wikipedia article vs. the definitive final DSM-5 and update the wikipedia article if necessary? As it stands, the wikipedia diagnostic criteria attributed to DSM-V don't appear to match what's actually in the DSM-V. Am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Everydayrationality ( talk • contribs) 04:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm removing everything in the Signs and symptoms section under the DSM-5 and DSM-IV-TR subsections per WP:COPYVIO. It's all copied verbatim from this source. The DSM-5 stuff is out of date anyway as the source was published 2 years before the DSM-5 came out and the finalized criteria were different (as Everydayrationality mentioned above). I have access to the DSM-5, so I'm working on rewording those symptoms in a way that isn't a copyright violation, so I'll re-add that bit soon. I'm going to leave out the DSM-IV-TR stuff at this point.
I also removed the green lines below from the Signs and symptoms section, because of issues with the cited sources. I'm pasting it here, so other people can have it on hand if they want to reinsert something similar later with better sources.
Extended content
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I haven't looked at the rest of the article yet, but based on this one section, it doesn't seem like it would be a bad idea to attempt to verify the rest of the sources in the article. PermStrump (talk) 03:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Please add comments to this.
Yomrlax ( talk) 16:27, 13 March 2016 (UTC) It should be noted that a previous attempt to add a portion about a political figure as a "case example" to this article stirred up controversy. See the Barack Obama section on this talk page. Using the Barack Obama controversy as an example, it seems fairly obvious that political candidates or elected officials should not ever be included as "text book examples" or "case studies" in this article since doing so simply stirs up controversy. Furthermore, I see no indication as to how including a controversial political figure in this article furthers a reader's understanding of this disorder. If a specific person must be used as an example, there are plenty of non-controversial or less controversial public figures that can be used. Using a politician simply turns supporters of that politician off from using Wikipedia. For the same reason, there should not be an entire section in this article devoted to Donald Trump.
What's more is that the section has chosen its test subject arbitrarily. Test subjects that are highlighted in an encyclopedic article should always be chosen for a specific purpose. The wiki editor should be able to answer questions such as why was Donald Trump chosen as a person to have an entire section devoted to him in this article? Is he a unique example of narcissism - a rare case that is more interesting scientifically than any other narcissistic person? Since this article is scientific in nature, the decision to choose one test subject over any other should always be rooted in the goal of furthering the reader's scientific understanding. In this particular case, the chosen test subject and the resultant case study does nothing to further a reader's understanding of the disorder.
Since narcissism is essentially a medical condition, having a section that highlights Donald Trump as an example of someone who has it is about as absurd as if there was a section in an encyclopedia article on the flu that explains that Barack Obama once had the flu. Neither help further the reader's understanding of the medical condition. In both cases, the only interesting thing about the test subjects is that they are famous.
Putting all of this together, it becomes clear that not only should Donald Trump not be used as the test subject (or Barack Obama), but there should not be a section in this article whatsoever titled "Theoretical Study". The title is too broad and the content too arbitrary. Specific case studies should be contained in a section whose title highlights the unique features of those case studies. For example, it might be appropriate to have a section titled "Famous People with Narcissism". Or, to have a section titled "Politicians with Narcissism" (although, as I pointed out earlier, this will simply stir up controversy and cause people to not go to Wikipedia anymore).
References 1 and 35 are the same reference, which is at http://www.bdlive.co.za/articles/2011/01/07/megalomiacs-abound-in-politicsmedicinefinance
I don’t have the citation skills yet to combine them into one reference entry.
Here is how they are shown now:
1. a b "Megalomiacs abound in politics/medicine/finance". Business Day Live. Jan 7,2011. Retrieved 17 July 2016. Check date values in: |date= (help)
35. Megalomaniacs abound in politics/medicine/finance Business Day 2011/01/07
ProfessionalCommunicatorEducator 00:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professionaleducator ( talk • contribs)
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in the Treatment section, you have a missing NPD as indicated by where I put the brackets in the following sentence, the second of paragraph 4: "Researchers originally thought group therapy among patients with [NPD] would fail because it was believed that group therapy required empathy that NPD patients lack."
Here is the corrected sentence, reproduced in order to provide better grammatical clarity: Researchers originally thought group therapy among patients with NPD would fail because it was believed that group therapy required empathy that NPD patients lack.
Best,
d
Anonymiscellaneous ( talk) 17:41, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Seems like someone replaced "Fanatic Narcissist (+ Paranoid traits )" with "Malignant narcissist (wich is very similar to 'Malevolent Antisocial variant' and 'Malignan Paranoid variant')" I have never heard of read anything about millons ver. of "malignant narcissist " as a subtype of NPD from his writings. Id like to know the source of Millons ver. of "Malignant narcissist and why the "Fanatic narcissist (which I consider to be very important clinical concept, also you can find this NPD subtype from Millon's book. )" has been eliminated.
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SwansenAcc ( talk) 10:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
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User:Literaturegeek I have provided the quote from the source.
The DSM5 says "pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations" on page 646
I have summarized as "occurs across a variety of social situations"
This means something different "appears in a variety of forms"
Doc James (
talk ·
contribs ·
email) 05:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
There is a contradiction here between the two successive paragraphs:
Which is correct or has better citation creds? The rest of the article seems to favour emotional behaviour, but maybe there needs to be a distinction between subtypes mentioned in a later section. My only personal experience of the type was both openly emotional and a "drama queen", but that's just my two bits worth. In any case, it's confusing to have this direct contradiction without explanation. D A Patriarche ( talk) 05:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
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The link for footnote 9 is dead. Please replace occurrences of the old link http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/con-20025568 with the new location of the current version https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662
It seems there are now two linked pages where formerly there was only one. For some referenced statements, the second page covering the topic is more appropriate. In some cases this was the sole reference supporting those statements, so a new ref tag should be made pointing to it. The text "Treatment for NPD is centered around psychotherapy." should now be referenced to https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20366690 The same link should reference the text "No medications are indicated for treating NPD, but may be used to treat co-occurring mental conditions or symptoms that may be associated with it such as depression, anxiety, and impulsiveness if present." 192.91.171.36 ( talk) 03:57, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
In the paragraph about Treatment, the article says
Another type of treatment would be temperament change.
It is associated with a reference that probably support the statement. But the article on temperament defines it as consistent individual differences in behavior that are biologically based and are relatively independent of learning.
Although this is not expicitly inconsistent, I don't find it helpful to suggest that one of the best methods to change narcissism is to change something that is relatively independent of learning, without further explanation. The context seems to imply that this change is to be achieved by use of psychotherapy. And to my understanding psychotherapy is intended to work by giving the client an opportunity to learn. So even if this statement is not wrong, it is definitely not providing any information about how to help a narcissist. I suggest that it is removed. -- Ettrig ( talk) 10:54, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Under "Personality traits" for "Subtype" "Fanatic narcissist" it says, in part, "expensive supercilious contempt and arrogance toward others". Is it really supposed to be "expensive"? Maybe "extensive" or "expansive"? Rdvaldesdapena ( talk) 12:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
A recent edit had a lengthy description claiming that DSM-V does not say that empathy is lacking. That claim is false. The section "Diagnostic Criteria 301.81 (F60.81) states "A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy ... as indicated by five (or more) of the following:" followed by a list of 9 criteria, of which criterion 7 is "lacks empathy, is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others". Nadiatalent ( talk) 22:18, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
He is a textbook case of this disorder. 71.205.174.204 ( talk) 04:51, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Obama? LOL. Fast forward 8 years and Donald Trump is president. I would say having had to endure this man for 3 years now that no president has embodied the narcissist like DJT. The symptoms listed in the article read like a laundry list of Trump's personality problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.89.122 ( talk) 06:39, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
Someone removed this comment minutes after I entered it under the cultural depictions section. Since many professionals have diagnosed Barack Obama as a narcissist, I find it hard to understand how there should not be remarks in that section. Is Wikipedia politically biased? Moreover, a dialog about the US President's narcissism is arguably the single most relevant "cultural depiction" available in the entire world. Here's the passage that I entered. Instead of simply removing it, perhaps someone with more Wikipedia experience than me could clean it up and post it?
Barack Obama has been diagnosed as a narcissist [1] In March, 2012, the Danish Broadcasting Corporation's television news magazine show, Detektor, produced a story in which United States President Barack Obama is shown repeatedly stating to leaders of various nations from around the world that they are are the United States' "strongest ally". [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.3.213.43 ( talk) 14:19, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
References
-- yomrlax ( talk) 20:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
NPD, like all of the personality disorders in the DSM was originally constructed through the American Psychiatric Association's consensus voting approach [1]
and has long been the subject of controversy with personality disorder experts suggesting that the condition is not valid. In 2013 the Personality Disorders Work Group commissioned by the American Psychiatric Association recommended that NPD be deleted from the DSM on the grounds that it lacked scientific evidence to support it.
[2]
Personality Disorders including Narcissistic Personality Disorder have also been criticized as offensive moral judgments and not mental disorders.
[3]
References
Editors, please devote some space to the very important issue of deceptiveness surrounding narcissism, and as discussed in the DSM more broadly.
Framed in general terms, there are different ramifications of deceptivenss. It can be purposeless (pathological lying). It can be for the maintenance of claims about the self (narcissism). Or a pattern of deception can become a covert goal indirectly reinforcing beliefs about the self. (narcissism, serial infidelity, paranoia, sociopathy, other forms of predation).
A person may directly or indirectly need to harm another person through deception, and narcissism is among those disorders in which that process occurs. For instance, serial infidelity stretching across partners seems in certain cases to be an indirect, covert goal that helps regulate shame. By cheating, the narcissist can view the partner as a dupe, allowing the demeaning beliefs that the narcissist must hold to become linked to a less shameful rationale.
Citations appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A.k.a. ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I have diagnosed Narcissistic Personality Disorder due to trauma and intense fears of not being perfect, and my first thought was "Would this be helpful to people with this condition to have manipulative and toxic behaviors so tightly linked to this disorder?" Manipulation is not, and should never be a psychological disorder symptom. It is based on choices of harming others. Just as "abusive parental tactics" isn't a disorder, or "physically abusive" isn't something that should be attached to, say, Bipolar Disorder. Be mindful. Biwheelchair ( talk) 13:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
The article is extremely biased and appears to have been written by someone who has a major problem with authority figures. Enforcing the rules that were written for everyones benefit does not make one exploitative or insensitive to peoples feeling. The article is (perhaps deliberately) confusing narcissism with antisocial personality disorder. Narcissistic arrogance is not the same thing as antisocial grandiosity. Just granpa ( talk) 15:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
In the Signs and symptoms section, I'm really confused by the sentence that begins Self-confidence (a strong sense of self) is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD; thus, people with NPD typically value themselves over others ...
1. is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD sounds like a very awkward and obtuse way of saying simply is not one of the traits of NPD.
2. Why mention what are not traits of NPD? Should every trait in existance that is not a trait of NPD be mentioned?
3. Unclear what Self-confidence has to do with valuing one's self over others. Why are these two traits even mentioned in the same sentence?
4. Why thus ? The part of the sentence after thus does not sound at all like it follows from the part of the sentence before thus. If anything, it seems that just the opposite might be the case.
I don't know enough about the subject to fix it myself.-- Dr.bobbs ( talk) 02:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
The article gives no hint of the real world consequences of narcissistic abuse, the fact that a relationship with a narcissist can lead to a lifetime of slavery or suicide. It gives no focus to the fact that narcissists are deeply dangerous and destructive people. It seems to speak of it as primarily a disorder affecting the individual. Rather it is primarily a disorder affecting others. 81.96.150.61 ( talk) 08:58, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
The cause is currently posted as "unknown". Is it not well established that Narcissism is caused by childhood abuse/neglect and epigenetics? The general consensus seems to be threefold which are: (1) pathological pampering (typically due to a narcissistic caregiver projecting onto the child an idealized perception of them to satisfy the narcissists beliefs in the child being a perfect extension of themselves), (2) rejection of child (often in a environment of conditional attention, high criticism, and hyper-competitiveness), (3) epigenetic inheritance from recent ancestors with NPD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyrus Freedman ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Sincerely, SvenAERTS ( talk) 10:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
References
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Discussion of the concept and validity of grandiose/thick-skinned and vulnerable/thin-skinned subtypes of narcissistic subtypes is better suited to a subhead in the Narcissistic personality disorder article than in 1 or 2 stand alone articles. Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories.
The current article Vulnerable narcissism lacks both content and meaningful sources and could be distilled down to a single paragraph. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 08:24, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
It sounds like you may be advocating for this to become a stand alone condition.Well, it is a stand-alone condition. A covert narcissist will not become an overt narcissist (and vice versa), although according to the literature both types can temporarily switch (an overt narcissist can temporarily go through a collapsed state that looks fairly similar to the ground state of a covert narcissist, and a covert narcissist can go through a period of temporary grandiosity – the article above mentions these switches as well)
And in that context, we are talking about research aspect of NPD when we speak of these things.I agree. What I am saying is that it is technically incorrect to insert vulnerable narcissism under Narcissistic Personality Disorder, simply because vulnerable narcissists are not diagnosed as such. Vulnerable narcissism might be moved under Narcissism though. Grufo ( talk) 20:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
These supply and malignancy portions, while popular, are mostly bunk from self help books. 2601:283:C002:1D60:FC81:6514:A80:92F6 ( talk) 05:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
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there needs to be a proper section on npd and defense mechanisms. Splitting gets a mention but others may feature such as projection. -- Penbat ( talk) 16:54, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
It is proposed that Narcissistic personality disorder be part of the trial of a new template; see the green strip at the top of Pain where it has been in place for a couple of months. The purpose of this project is to encourage readers to edit, while equipping them with the basic tools. If you perceive a problem with this, or have any suggestions for improvement, please discuss at the project talk page. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 10:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
From my research on the subject I continuously see female suffers of NPD and male suffers as having completely different symptoms... within relationships and parenting. Perhaps different symptoms are presented in different degrees of severity. I think there is also a gender inequality where within the relationship there seems to be a higher degree of females with NPD. If it is equally balanced between males and females perhaps males are more likely to exhaust their NPD frustrations in the workforce whereas females are more likely to bring damage to romantic relationships. These are things that I have noticed in forums and documentaries and all sorts of places. It seems obvious to me that there are differences in gender roles but I can't find anything definitive which examines NPD specifically with regard to gender. If anyone could list some sources to cite from that would be greatly appreciated. I think it is very important NPD knowledge of course it is something that probably hasn't been thoroughly researched. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeUser5050 ( talk • contribs) 18:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
The character Eric Cartman from South Park would be a good addition to this section. The BP episode and the Fishsticks episode illustrate the delusions caused by NPD very well. I would have added him in myself but I was unable to find a good source to cite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.108.21 ( talk • contribs) 06:59, 27 December 2010
Interesting suggestion. I like the Fishsticks episode, with Cartman and his delusion about who wrote the joke, and Kanye West with his delusion that leave him convinced that there couldn't be a joke that he wouldn't immediately grasp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.88.109 ( talk) 03:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Reading a section on Devaluation and Idealization, I found a much more...appropriate terming of this section of the article. "In child development idealization and devaluation are quite normal. During the childhood development stage, individuals become capable of perceiving others as complex structures, containing both good and bad components. If the development stage is interrupted (by early childhood trauma, for example), these defense mechanisms may persist into adulthood."
It shows the problem as a MAY, recognizing that these issues are very much complex and hard to ultimately determine. I think this would be a great way to frame the dubious paragraph at the bottom of "Causes." In addition, it phrases the effects of childhood influence in a far more cautious manner than the one presented on the NPD article. However, the words to rewrite this myself are elusive. Should I be able to, I will do so, but I'd encourage anyone else whos a bit better at stringing words together than I am. (my writing style being best described as "taking forever to say nothing.") 74.132.249.206 ( talk) 23:28, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Narcissism seems to be confused with egomania with a lot of lay people and in Pop Psychology. Having studied Psychology and read a few text books on the topic, most Psychiatrists state that someone with NPD in fact hates themselves. Even though Humanist Psychology is written off by most academics because of there appears to be no theories in Humanism that have been proved factual, Humanism cannot actually lead to NPD. When people talk about narcissism in modern society that's not to say that NPD is rife. It just means that people are more self aware? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spyingcactus ( talk • contribs) 00:52, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm removing the following from entitlement as just undue an dleaving just the first paragraph and a link to this article. There may be some use for it here. Dmcq ( talk) 11:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Narcissism
In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, seen in those who 'because of early frustrations...arrogate to themselves the right to demand lifelong reimbursement from fate. [1]
Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage. [2]
'John Murray (1964) in his/her now classic paper of narcissism and the ego ideal' laid great 'emphasis on narcissistic entitlement and the manner in which this reflects infantile pregenital narcissistic fixations' - something which led in turn to the 'notion of the "narcissistic triad". The narcissistic triad involves (1) narcissistic entitlement, (2) disappointment and disillusionment at the frustration of narcissistic needs, and (3) narcissistic rage'. [3]
Belief in the special, exceptional nature of 'narcissistic entitlement dictates that the patient has a right to life on his/her own terms...Such narcissistic entitlement plays a central role in borderline pathology, since the borderline sees himself as a special person with special rights and entitlements, such that any frustration of these entitled desires tends to undermine and often shatter the patient's self-esteem'. [4]
In the wake of Kohut's self-psychology, a valorisation of narcissistic entitlement might be said to have taken place, as 'the age of "normal narcissism" and normal narcissistic entitlement had arrived...[a] child's right and entitlement that its parents are obliged to proffer at the least the minimum requisite "self-object" soothing...to allow the infant/child to develop a sense of self-cohesion'. [5]
References
I’m editing this article as a part of my History and Systems of Psychology course and Shenandoah University, in conjunction with the APS Wikipedia Initiative. The article I will be using are: Narcissism and Narcissistic Defences in the Eating Disorders [1], Development and Validation of the Childhood Narcissism Scale [2]Narcissistic Personality Disorder [3]Narcissistic Personality Disorders: The Egotistical Pattern [4] Valentinesday1986 ( talk) 18:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
References
I think this paragraph: "To form a more accurate ideology of the mentality of one suffering from this disorder,Kent Daniel Glowinski's book Narcissistic personality disorder : poems is greatly recommended.The author delves into the mind of a narcissistic person and has composed a book of poems, very eerily written in a narcissistic individuals point of view." should be removed- it is completely subjective. Katiekillick ( talk) 19:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Narcissistic disorder being characterised by 'image obsession',that they must always appear good and strong people to everyone that observes them.
Many narcissistic traits are displayed in inferiority complexes ,and indeed I think people with low esteem are indeed more prone to it. People with overly-highself esteem tend to have more problems to do with recklessness (perceived invulnerability) rather than obsessively proving everyone that they're the best there is, after all, in their point of view, why should they have to prove it? Is there anything they have to prove anyway? Unlike Sinebot I'm not saying this is the rule, they may too afraid that they'll lose their perceived high status.
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There appears to be a contradiction in the article regarding the effectiveness of medication in treatment. The end of the first paragraph states simply that "pharmacotherapy is rarely effective", but the third paragraph discusses various circumstances in which medications can be "an effective addition" or even "extremely beneficial" to the patient. As someone with no knowledge of the subject, I think the section would benefit from some clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.57.101 ( talk) 08:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article needs a section on possible neurological etiologies of "Narsicistic Personality Disorder" and any pharmaceutical treatments. It is heavily biased towards the almost- completely theoretical field of Psychology and as such seems to have an underlying departure from established scientific facts. As is well known, many, many people question the validity of many findings and theories in Psychology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.204.112 ( talk) 10:27, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
There has some debate on the differences between NPD and ASPD. Indeed, at first glance the disorders can appear quite similar. I think it might not be a bad idea to include some content in this article distinguishing NPD from ASPD (and two subcategories of ASPD: psychopathy and sociopathy) in order to emphasize the differences. From my understanding, people with NPD and people with ASPD share a few key symptoms such as interpersonal exploitation and lack of empathy, but people with NPD [and not ASPD] are relatively more narcissistic - albeit less crime-oriented and sadistic - than people with ASPD [but not NPD]. -- 82.31.164.172 ( talk) 09:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
However, I was reverted when I tried to fix the criteria. There are other major errors. For example, the narcissictic personality is incorrectly described as "sadistic" and other major misunderstandings. Apparently, editors have pieced together their own version from several diverse and conflicting sources. Hopefully, someone will be able to fix it without being instantly reverted. Farrajak ( talk) 01:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Can a narcissist love anyone other than himself? This is not stated in the article. Many narcissists fantasize about 'ideal love', but what does that mean to a narcissist? Would it be reciprocal, or would the narcissist seek only to be loved and looked up to? I cannot see how a narcissist could love anyone other than himself. A narcissist can be fixated on one person to whom he is attracted - but is it love? There is a similar issue regarding love and HPD, but no conclusion has been reached on Talk:Histrionic personality disorder. Jim Michael ( talk) 14:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
The numerous uses in this section of strikethrough, followed by "- this is not on the DSM-IV-TR criteria" or "not on DSM IV-TR criteria" seems to me to be highly inappropriate. Discussing the inclusion of those particular symptoms, and their validity with regard to the DSM IV-TR, is something that should take place here in the "Talk" section, not on the actual page for the reader to see. If the contributor believes the symptoms are not found in the DSM IV-TR, and therefore does not meet the criteria set forward by the opening statement of the section which read, "Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR include:", then the contributor should have deleted those symptoms on the Editing page and given the explanation for doing so there, rather than muddying up the article itself with strikethroughs and statements of invalidity.
The article should appear finished, not as if it were a draft. In other words, either talk about the errors in the "Talk" section, or edit them out in the "Edit" section. But please don't bleed all over the article and then leave it in that condition for everyone to see. This is not a school paper. The contributor is (probably) not the section writer's teacher. Leaving marks of correction all over the article is neither professional nor helpful to persons reading it in search of information on the topic at hand. Lunarmovements ( talk) 04:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I think it is a mistake to let DSM be the sole source and standard used for contributions of this sort to this NPD page. I think this section might be amended in some way to say "DSM states the following symptoms....", then followed by "Other authorities note the following additional symptoms....", which can then be individually documented. Unless, of course, it has been determined by the gods that this wiki page is a book report on DSM. There are many reasons that a committee doing an industry standards work like DSM may leave out valid and useful information, and I think it will be helpful to many readers if some of this other, perhaps more practical, info is mentioned in the page. For example, I have found the narcissistic chatter symptom is often my first clue that a person is affected by NPD. They love to talk about themselves and will shift the conversation back to this favorite subject even if the topic is changed by someone else. This item is not mentioned in the DSM symptom list. Another important set of symptoms relate to the fan club--the domination hierarchy that provides the narcissistic supply and works as the attack force against critics. This is not mentioned by the DSM symptom list. I would assert that any document describing NPD that does not deal with the domination hierarchy has seriously missed something. This is one of the prominent features of the condition that seriously affects other people. Not all of us are psychotherapists whose business is small or one-on-one meetings with troubled souls away from their real-life contexts. Some of us work daily in large organizations where the NPD person can become a big operator. Narcissists have minions, and minions go forth to do their dirty work. On three unrelated occasions in three different organizations, I have been jumped on en mass by a devoted cadre of intense followers because I disagreed with their fearless leader. For the reader like me, documentation of the NPD domination hierarchy issue might be the most helpful part of the page, especially in relation to a list of practical symptoms I can observe without having superpowers that enable me to peer into the depths of the person's heart and mind to learn that he is "envious" or that he is "preoccupied" with certain "thoughts and fantasies."--Aragorn 01:19, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
The Society and Culture section that lists Asuka Langley as an example cites a youtube video of a guy at an anime convention as the source...
At the very least, it should be made clear that it is fan speculation - if not removed altogether. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.183.88.209 ( talk) 17:29, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi All, I believe that although there is much debate regarding the disorder's presence in the DSM 5, the information is still included in DSM 5 and should therefore be present on the page. That being said, I believe that the following information should be displayed under diagnosis after the first 3 paragraphs:
However, according to the DSM-5, a diagnosis for Narcissistic Personality Disorder is indicated by 5 (or more) of the following symptoms:
-- Jkmx09 16 April 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkmx09 ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
As a victim of the so called Cult of the Narcissist I must say it is one of the most prevalent characteristics of the NPD world. It consumes its victims on its closed circle by imposing on them his or her lifestyle in a way that is abusive since it often uses excessive Projective Identification, i.e. pushes its close ones to become him temporarily. This consumes the cult of the Narcissist into a vicious cycle of believing they have the problems Narcissist has. It is imperative in my opinion to expose this information (included in the above link or elsewhere) for these 2 reasons.
1) It is very easy to not be aware of it because the word "Narcissist" implies to most Laymen just a "just preoccupied with oneself" sense, which is very dangerous to be considered it only stays at that
2) It is probably the most dangerous of the outcomes of this condition. i.e. The NPD patient is one, its victims might be more. -- 194.219.131.11 ( talk) 07:15, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
See my comment below in the "Symptoms" section about the lack of info in this article on the subject of the narcissistic domination hierarchy.Aragorn 14:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkshrews ( talk • contribs)
The described subtypes appear not to be those proposed by Millon, but rather a "mixed" variant of subtype systems. In the source I have read (and I unfortunately can't find it any more, it was a book preview from Google Books website), there were two classifications described. One was Millon's system including "unprincipled", "amorous", "compensatory", "elitist" and "fanatic" narcissism, and the other one included four different subtypes named "craving", "paranoid", "manipulative" and "phallic". "Malignant narcissism" wasn't included in any of the two systems. (I hope I remember them correctly - at least Millon proposed five subtypes, but didn't include malignant narcissism but instead a "fanatic" subtype.)
So if such subtype classifications are mentioned, maybe one should mention the different classifications apart from each other, and avoid messing them up... I hope I could help. As I said I don't find a reliable source any more, but there was one not long ago... -- 79.243.238.86 ( talk) 23:00, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:36, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Hi - I believe that the diagnostic criteria for NPD in this article match the *draft* DSM-V criteria (which were a change from the DSM-IV criteria) but not the *final* DSM-V diagnostic criteria for NPD (which I'm looking at right now in the Kindle version of the DSM-V, and which essentially match the original DSM-IV criteria). There was a complicated debate about the definition of NPD and the personality disorders in the DSM-V (which I did not follow closely). At one point in a draft of DSM-V, I believe that NPD was removed as a standalone disorder. Then there was a proposed alternate dimensional diagnostic definition for the personality disorders as a group, then I believe for the final version the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for NPD itself were essentially restored (for a variety of reasons including the difficulty of using a dimensional model in therapy), while a dimensional definition of the personality disorders as a group was retained.
I'm not sure I'm getting that complicated history all correct. But what I *can* say for a fact is that I'm looking at the Kindle version of the DSM-V Fifth Edition right now, and here's the definition it shows for NPD:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: 1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements). 2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. 3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions). 4. Requires excessive admiration. 5. Has a sense of entitlement (i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations). 6. Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends). 7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. 8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her. 9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
American Psychiatric Publication (2016-02-13). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5(tm)): American Psychiatric Pub; 5 edition (Page 702). American Psychiatric Pub; 5 edition. Kindle Edition.
Hopefully someone who follows this topic more closely than I do can cross-check the definition in this wikipedia article vs. the definitive final DSM-5 and update the wikipedia article if necessary? As it stands, the wikipedia diagnostic criteria attributed to DSM-V don't appear to match what's actually in the DSM-V. Am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Everydayrationality ( talk • contribs) 04:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm removing everything in the Signs and symptoms section under the DSM-5 and DSM-IV-TR subsections per WP:COPYVIO. It's all copied verbatim from this source. The DSM-5 stuff is out of date anyway as the source was published 2 years before the DSM-5 came out and the finalized criteria were different (as Everydayrationality mentioned above). I have access to the DSM-5, so I'm working on rewording those symptoms in a way that isn't a copyright violation, so I'll re-add that bit soon. I'm going to leave out the DSM-IV-TR stuff at this point.
I also removed the green lines below from the Signs and symptoms section, because of issues with the cited sources. I'm pasting it here, so other people can have it on hand if they want to reinsert something similar later with better sources.
Extended content
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I haven't looked at the rest of the article yet, but based on this one section, it doesn't seem like it would be a bad idea to attempt to verify the rest of the sources in the article. PermStrump (talk) 03:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Please add comments to this.
Yomrlax ( talk) 16:27, 13 March 2016 (UTC) It should be noted that a previous attempt to add a portion about a political figure as a "case example" to this article stirred up controversy. See the Barack Obama section on this talk page. Using the Barack Obama controversy as an example, it seems fairly obvious that political candidates or elected officials should not ever be included as "text book examples" or "case studies" in this article since doing so simply stirs up controversy. Furthermore, I see no indication as to how including a controversial political figure in this article furthers a reader's understanding of this disorder. If a specific person must be used as an example, there are plenty of non-controversial or less controversial public figures that can be used. Using a politician simply turns supporters of that politician off from using Wikipedia. For the same reason, there should not be an entire section in this article devoted to Donald Trump.
What's more is that the section has chosen its test subject arbitrarily. Test subjects that are highlighted in an encyclopedic article should always be chosen for a specific purpose. The wiki editor should be able to answer questions such as why was Donald Trump chosen as a person to have an entire section devoted to him in this article? Is he a unique example of narcissism - a rare case that is more interesting scientifically than any other narcissistic person? Since this article is scientific in nature, the decision to choose one test subject over any other should always be rooted in the goal of furthering the reader's scientific understanding. In this particular case, the chosen test subject and the resultant case study does nothing to further a reader's understanding of the disorder.
Since narcissism is essentially a medical condition, having a section that highlights Donald Trump as an example of someone who has it is about as absurd as if there was a section in an encyclopedia article on the flu that explains that Barack Obama once had the flu. Neither help further the reader's understanding of the medical condition. In both cases, the only interesting thing about the test subjects is that they are famous.
Putting all of this together, it becomes clear that not only should Donald Trump not be used as the test subject (or Barack Obama), but there should not be a section in this article whatsoever titled "Theoretical Study". The title is too broad and the content too arbitrary. Specific case studies should be contained in a section whose title highlights the unique features of those case studies. For example, it might be appropriate to have a section titled "Famous People with Narcissism". Or, to have a section titled "Politicians with Narcissism" (although, as I pointed out earlier, this will simply stir up controversy and cause people to not go to Wikipedia anymore).
References 1 and 35 are the same reference, which is at http://www.bdlive.co.za/articles/2011/01/07/megalomiacs-abound-in-politicsmedicinefinance
I don’t have the citation skills yet to combine them into one reference entry.
Here is how they are shown now:
1. a b "Megalomiacs abound in politics/medicine/finance". Business Day Live. Jan 7,2011. Retrieved 17 July 2016. Check date values in: |date= (help)
35. Megalomaniacs abound in politics/medicine/finance Business Day 2011/01/07
ProfessionalCommunicatorEducator 00:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professionaleducator ( talk • contribs)
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in the Treatment section, you have a missing NPD as indicated by where I put the brackets in the following sentence, the second of paragraph 4: "Researchers originally thought group therapy among patients with [NPD] would fail because it was believed that group therapy required empathy that NPD patients lack."
Here is the corrected sentence, reproduced in order to provide better grammatical clarity: Researchers originally thought group therapy among patients with NPD would fail because it was believed that group therapy required empathy that NPD patients lack.
Best,
d
Anonymiscellaneous ( talk) 17:41, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
Seems like someone replaced "Fanatic Narcissist (+ Paranoid traits )" with "Malignant narcissist (wich is very similar to 'Malevolent Antisocial variant' and 'Malignan Paranoid variant')" I have never heard of read anything about millons ver. of "malignant narcissist " as a subtype of NPD from his writings. Id like to know the source of Millons ver. of "Malignant narcissist and why the "Fanatic narcissist (which I consider to be very important clinical concept, also you can find this NPD subtype from Millon's book. )" has been eliminated.
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SwansenAcc ( talk) 10:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
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User:Literaturegeek I have provided the quote from the source.
The DSM5 says "pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations" on page 646
I have summarized as "occurs across a variety of social situations"
This means something different "appears in a variety of forms"
Doc James (
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email) 05:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
There is a contradiction here between the two successive paragraphs:
Which is correct or has better citation creds? The rest of the article seems to favour emotional behaviour, but maybe there needs to be a distinction between subtypes mentioned in a later section. My only personal experience of the type was both openly emotional and a "drama queen", but that's just my two bits worth. In any case, it's confusing to have this direct contradiction without explanation. D A Patriarche ( talk) 05:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
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The link for footnote 9 is dead. Please replace occurrences of the old link http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/con-20025568 with the new location of the current version https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662
It seems there are now two linked pages where formerly there was only one. For some referenced statements, the second page covering the topic is more appropriate. In some cases this was the sole reference supporting those statements, so a new ref tag should be made pointing to it. The text "Treatment for NPD is centered around psychotherapy." should now be referenced to https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20366690 The same link should reference the text "No medications are indicated for treating NPD, but may be used to treat co-occurring mental conditions or symptoms that may be associated with it such as depression, anxiety, and impulsiveness if present." 192.91.171.36 ( talk) 03:57, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
In the paragraph about Treatment, the article says
Another type of treatment would be temperament change.
It is associated with a reference that probably support the statement. But the article on temperament defines it as consistent individual differences in behavior that are biologically based and are relatively independent of learning.
Although this is not expicitly inconsistent, I don't find it helpful to suggest that one of the best methods to change narcissism is to change something that is relatively independent of learning, without further explanation. The context seems to imply that this change is to be achieved by use of psychotherapy. And to my understanding psychotherapy is intended to work by giving the client an opportunity to learn. So even if this statement is not wrong, it is definitely not providing any information about how to help a narcissist. I suggest that it is removed. -- Ettrig ( talk) 10:54, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Under "Personality traits" for "Subtype" "Fanatic narcissist" it says, in part, "expensive supercilious contempt and arrogance toward others". Is it really supposed to be "expensive"? Maybe "extensive" or "expansive"? Rdvaldesdapena ( talk) 12:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
A recent edit had a lengthy description claiming that DSM-V does not say that empathy is lacking. That claim is false. The section "Diagnostic Criteria 301.81 (F60.81) states "A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy ... as indicated by five (or more) of the following:" followed by a list of 9 criteria, of which criterion 7 is "lacks empathy, is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others". Nadiatalent ( talk) 22:18, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
He is a textbook case of this disorder. 71.205.174.204 ( talk) 04:51, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Obama? LOL. Fast forward 8 years and Donald Trump is president. I would say having had to endure this man for 3 years now that no president has embodied the narcissist like DJT. The symptoms listed in the article read like a laundry list of Trump's personality problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.89.122 ( talk) 06:39, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
Someone removed this comment minutes after I entered it under the cultural depictions section. Since many professionals have diagnosed Barack Obama as a narcissist, I find it hard to understand how there should not be remarks in that section. Is Wikipedia politically biased? Moreover, a dialog about the US President's narcissism is arguably the single most relevant "cultural depiction" available in the entire world. Here's the passage that I entered. Instead of simply removing it, perhaps someone with more Wikipedia experience than me could clean it up and post it?
Barack Obama has been diagnosed as a narcissist [1] In March, 2012, the Danish Broadcasting Corporation's television news magazine show, Detektor, produced a story in which United States President Barack Obama is shown repeatedly stating to leaders of various nations from around the world that they are are the United States' "strongest ally". [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.3.213.43 ( talk) 14:19, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
References
-- yomrlax ( talk) 20:39, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
NPD, like all of the personality disorders in the DSM was originally constructed through the American Psychiatric Association's consensus voting approach [1]
and has long been the subject of controversy with personality disorder experts suggesting that the condition is not valid. In 2013 the Personality Disorders Work Group commissioned by the American Psychiatric Association recommended that NPD be deleted from the DSM on the grounds that it lacked scientific evidence to support it.
[2]
Personality Disorders including Narcissistic Personality Disorder have also been criticized as offensive moral judgments and not mental disorders.
[3]
References
Editors, please devote some space to the very important issue of deceptiveness surrounding narcissism, and as discussed in the DSM more broadly.
Framed in general terms, there are different ramifications of deceptivenss. It can be purposeless (pathological lying). It can be for the maintenance of claims about the self (narcissism). Or a pattern of deception can become a covert goal indirectly reinforcing beliefs about the self. (narcissism, serial infidelity, paranoia, sociopathy, other forms of predation).
A person may directly or indirectly need to harm another person through deception, and narcissism is among those disorders in which that process occurs. For instance, serial infidelity stretching across partners seems in certain cases to be an indirect, covert goal that helps regulate shame. By cheating, the narcissist can view the partner as a dupe, allowing the demeaning beliefs that the narcissist must hold to become linked to a less shameful rationale.
Citations appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A.k.a. ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I have diagnosed Narcissistic Personality Disorder due to trauma and intense fears of not being perfect, and my first thought was "Would this be helpful to people with this condition to have manipulative and toxic behaviors so tightly linked to this disorder?" Manipulation is not, and should never be a psychological disorder symptom. It is based on choices of harming others. Just as "abusive parental tactics" isn't a disorder, or "physically abusive" isn't something that should be attached to, say, Bipolar Disorder. Be mindful. Biwheelchair ( talk) 13:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
The article is extremely biased and appears to have been written by someone who has a major problem with authority figures. Enforcing the rules that were written for everyones benefit does not make one exploitative or insensitive to peoples feeling. The article is (perhaps deliberately) confusing narcissism with antisocial personality disorder. Narcissistic arrogance is not the same thing as antisocial grandiosity. Just granpa ( talk) 15:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
In the Signs and symptoms section, I'm really confused by the sentence that begins Self-confidence (a strong sense of self) is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD; thus, people with NPD typically value themselves over others ...
1. is a personality trait different from the traits of NPD sounds like a very awkward and obtuse way of saying simply is not one of the traits of NPD.
2. Why mention what are not traits of NPD? Should every trait in existance that is not a trait of NPD be mentioned?
3. Unclear what Self-confidence has to do with valuing one's self over others. Why are these two traits even mentioned in the same sentence?
4. Why thus ? The part of the sentence after thus does not sound at all like it follows from the part of the sentence before thus. If anything, it seems that just the opposite might be the case.
I don't know enough about the subject to fix it myself.-- Dr.bobbs ( talk) 02:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
The article gives no hint of the real world consequences of narcissistic abuse, the fact that a relationship with a narcissist can lead to a lifetime of slavery or suicide. It gives no focus to the fact that narcissists are deeply dangerous and destructive people. It seems to speak of it as primarily a disorder affecting the individual. Rather it is primarily a disorder affecting others. 81.96.150.61 ( talk) 08:58, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
The cause is currently posted as "unknown". Is it not well established that Narcissism is caused by childhood abuse/neglect and epigenetics? The general consensus seems to be threefold which are: (1) pathological pampering (typically due to a narcissistic caregiver projecting onto the child an idealized perception of them to satisfy the narcissists beliefs in the child being a perfect extension of themselves), (2) rejection of child (often in a environment of conditional attention, high criticism, and hyper-competitiveness), (3) epigenetic inheritance from recent ancestors with NPD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyrus Freedman ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Sincerely, SvenAERTS ( talk) 10:06, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
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Discussion of the concept and validity of grandiose/thick-skinned and vulnerable/thin-skinned subtypes of narcissistic subtypes is better suited to a subhead in the Narcissistic personality disorder article than in 1 or 2 stand alone articles. Narcissistic personality disorder#Subtype theories.
The current article Vulnerable narcissism lacks both content and meaningful sources and could be distilled down to a single paragraph. Wiki-psyc ( talk) 08:24, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
It sounds like you may be advocating for this to become a stand alone condition.Well, it is a stand-alone condition. A covert narcissist will not become an overt narcissist (and vice versa), although according to the literature both types can temporarily switch (an overt narcissist can temporarily go through a collapsed state that looks fairly similar to the ground state of a covert narcissist, and a covert narcissist can go through a period of temporary grandiosity – the article above mentions these switches as well)
And in that context, we are talking about research aspect of NPD when we speak of these things.I agree. What I am saying is that it is technically incorrect to insert vulnerable narcissism under Narcissistic Personality Disorder, simply because vulnerable narcissists are not diagnosed as such. Vulnerable narcissism might be moved under Narcissism though. Grufo ( talk) 20:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
These supply and malignancy portions, while popular, are mostly bunk from self help books. 2601:283:C002:1D60:FC81:6514:A80:92F6 ( talk) 05:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)