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This article was nominated for deletion on july 12 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
S/be List of Jewish American journalists per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). 24.17.48.241 06:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have sourced the list in accordance with Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiability policies. Basically, anyone described by a reliable source as "Jewish" or "Jewish-American" (i.e. as opposed to "of Jewish descent", "Jewish mother", etc.) is on the list. Here are the people I couldn't find anything for. If you have a reliable source that fits that please restore the names:
Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I've removed these entries:
Because none of them are strictly speaking, journalists.-- Isotope23 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The list of Jewish journalists seems awfully short. I think the Wikipedia folks trying to protect their fellow Jews are doing a disservice to Judaism and journalism. For the most part, these people should be lauded in sunlight, not hidden in the dark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.119.18 ( talk) 17:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
I listed this on Request for Comments. Essentially, the issue is whether or not the entries above could be construed as journalists. I won't rehash the arguments as you can read them above. Comments on this would be appreciated.-- Isotope23 12:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If people who have issues with executives being journalists could perhaps post on the talk page and see that we already have an RfC in progress, that would be marvelous. Nokilli 20:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
References
As a Jew, I can unhesitatingly declare that the world would be a better place if it contained more believing Christians.
The NNDB is a junky trivia gathering site, like the IMDB, though a bit better. I've moved Dan Abrams and Ira Glass here pending sources. Whenver creating a new entry, btw, NNDB usually uses info straight from the person's Wikipedia entry, which is flattering to us, but not useful if our info comes back to us. Mad Jack 16:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I am simply not restoring anything from trivia web sites, and will revert up until my 3RR is up. These sites have caused so much misinformation on the net that we then have to fix. I have already made this page better, by sourcing all of it and insisting on reliable sources for any additional names, which I am doing. I am also, in fact, making Wikipedia better, by not sourcing to junky web sites. If Dan Abrams is Jewish, you should have no problem finding a reliable source that says so. My argument, as I've said, is based on this - how would the NNDB know? For example, an interview with Dan Abrams where he or the interviewer says that Abrams is Jewish would be a good source. Respected publications would be good sources. A second-hand trivia site is only reliable if we know where it gets its info. If not, it simply is not. Mad Jack 22:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not true - I can delete the entry if I can't prove it's correct, not if I can prove it's false. Since there is no ruling on NNDB, then we are free to discuss the NNDB, and my question to you is why would sourcing something to the NNDB be more reliable then sourcing it to Wikipedia? How would they know? Mad Jack 05:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what this article actually accomplishes. Please explain why it shouldn't be deleted. -- Leifern 23:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps one of you could then explain why this list should go, and not any of the others? Please note that we've already had a AfD for List of Jews, and the vote was keep. Also note that this list exceeds the standards used for the other lists, in that citations are provided for entries throughout. Nokilli 01:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I listed it for deletion. There's been no convincing argument presented as to its utility, and it's clear that the accuracy problems are not going to be resolved. Dbratton 18:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed a number of names which used unreliable sources (e.g. blogs), or didn't actually say the person was a Jew. Being married by a Rabbi, for example, is no guarantee that one is a Jew, since many Rabbis perform intermarriages. Similarly, coming from a Zionist family does not mean one is a Jew. Please ensure that all entries comply with Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Jayjg (talk) 01:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The claims that they are Jews are not verifiable, as the sources used are not reliable. The entries "should" only stay if the conform with policy. As for Koppel, he is best known as an ABC news anchor, not a NTY columnist. Please do not restore items that violate policy, and please do not edit-war - see [WP:3RR]]. Jayjg (talk) 01:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I have now inserted comments directly in the text, explaining exactly what the issue with each item is. I welcome further attention to this matter. Jayjg (talk) 02:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Wow, Leifern, you coulda said "Hi!" or something on the talk page before doing a baseless revert. Oh wait, is that _really_ Leifern? Ha! Nokilli 03:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been brooding over this a while, and I think I've come to a realization that may be helpful. Let's compare this with, say, lists of Norwegian-Americans. There is such a list in Wikipedia, but it's a) very short, and b) not the least bit contentious. There is no need to scrupulously document that Peter Graves is Norwegian-American, because that aspect is of only passing interest. No doubt, hundreds if not thousands of notable people of Norwegian-American ancestry never get categorized that way on Wikipedia. It simply doesn't matter much. But for reasons that may be interesting in themselves, there is an obsession about lists such as these. Katie Couric, who is Jewish only in the most technical sense, is listed, as if it matters at all to her notability. But really, it shouldn't. Why should it? -- Leifern 20:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't even know what that means - "more Jewish" than someone is "Norwegian-American?" Karl Rove is Norwegian-American because his adoptive father was Norwegian-American. Does that make him more or less Norwegian-American than someone whose biological father was Norwegian-American? -- Leifern 20:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This discussion does not appear to have been active for more than 10 years, but I just came across the article, and I am having trouble understanding why we need an article listing "Jewish-American Journalists." Lists like these are subject to misuse by the anti-Semitic websites, who will use the information in support of their contention that "the Jews" control "the media." It is interesting to know who is Jewish, and there is nothing wrong with that, but other than that, I do not see the point. John Paul Parks ( talk) 20:00, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Reply to the above: Your complaint appears to come down to the perennial fear of all censors that the truth should not be permitted to fall into the wrong hands .The issue of Jewish influence in the media is of ongoing and historic interest for a number of reasons, not least of which is the very tendency toward self-serving censorship which you yourself appear to advocating. Orthotox ( talk) 18:24, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
Someone here seems to be under the impression that everyone who works for a news organization is necessarily a journalist, but of course that isn't true. News organizations employ lawyers, advertising people, IT people, human-resources people, accountants, and, of course, journalists. Sometimes it's someone from the journalism side that is chosen to head the organization, and sometimes it's a lawyer or an advertising executive. Just because someone becomes the president doesn't mean s/he's a journalist. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a list of journalists, not an appendix to an argument that Jews control the media. General Electric owns NBC which operates NBC News - does that make the head of General Electric, Jack Welch, a journalist? Of course not, similarly, the president of a network that has a news division is not, by extension a journalist in the same way that he's not a comedian, talk show host, soap opera diva or cartoonist (if his network has Saturday morning cartoons.)
I suspect that most of the presidents or managing directors of news divisions eg NBC News are career journalists who have risen through the ranks and should be considered journalists in the same way that a newspaper editor is considered a journalist (though perhaps we should require proof from the individuals biography rather than making an assumption). However, the president of the network (or the CEO of the company that owns the network) cannot be considered a journalist unless he or she has had an earlier career as a reporter or news director. Similarly, publishers and/or proprietors of newspapers, generally, should not be considered journalists unless they have spent a significant part of their earlier career as reporters, editors or columnists and rose through the ranks. Homey 04:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if its possible but I'd be more comfortable with a broader article called List of American journalists by religion or List of American journalists by ethnicity that doesn't take one group in isolation. Is there even a List of Irish-American journalists or List of Roman Catholic American journalists? Homey 04:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
As for the tag at the top of the article, perhaps we should change it to:
Homey 05:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
"i.e., a person who practises journalism, the gathering and dissemination of information, Jack Welch is a journalist."
Read that definition again. Welch neither gathers nor disseminates information. Neither do the CEOs of companies that own news departments, nor those that own other companies that have news departments. Iacocca was an automotive engineer, sales person and then an auto designer before becoming an exec. Even as an exec he was intimately involved in the details around automaking. Homey 19:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
For which stories has Welch gathered information? Which stories has he reported? Homey 00:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I've already read it - yes, there is corporate interference, that doesn't make Welch a journalist. Media lawyers will often tell a news organization not to run a story or to change this or that or add this. Does that mean a media lawyer is also a journalist? Homey 01:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
It's a definition of journalist that no one actually uses and reflects your particular POV. Homey 02:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any mention of Jack Welch or of the President of Disney in that article. I did say an argument can be made for the heads of news divisions being journalists and I would apply that to the heads of news channels such as CNN but not to CEOs of media conglomarates etc. Homey 02:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
No, he fits the definition of CEO. Anyway, this is circular and is becoming original research. Can you find a source that actually refers to Jack Welch, or any of the CEOs you're referred to, as journalists? Your source details Welch's interference but it does not call him a journalist. Do you have a source that explicitly refers to Katherine Graham as a journalist? Homey 03:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
ie I'd like you to come up with a sources that, for instance, says something like "Les Moonves, in his career as a journalist..." ie direct applications of the term "journalist" (or "reporter") to any or all of these individuals. If you can't do that claiming they are journalists is OR. Homey 03:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the posts above, it seems every other editor on this page agrees with the fact that you can't put someone on a list of journalists who hasn't actually been called one. I am not making any judgments and express no opinions on whether the people they queried are journalists or not. But what I am saying is, if editors have challenged material on the basis, in this case, that several people listed are not journalists, then you must find sources that actually describe them as journalists, per WP:V. Mad Jack 08:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It's quite simple - if your assertion that a particular CEO is a journalist is valid then you should be able to find a source that describes that specific individual as a journalist. If you cant then the claim is OR and the person doesn't belong on the list. Homey 21:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
IMHO the exception is Mortimer Zuckerman, not because he's a media proprietor and CEO but because he is also editor in chief of US News and World Report and one of the magazine's columnists. Homey 17:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
That's your POV. You must cite a source that names the individual as a journalist. Homey 22:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
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It would seem to make far more sense to list the category automatically, if that's possible. If not, maybe this page could just redirect to the category. Franzboas ( talk) 05:01, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
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Why does this list even exist? Antisemitism is the answer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:1100:13d5:b044:bc57:2a09:c5b1 ( talk) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
List of Jewish American journalists article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article was nominated for deletion on july 12 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
S/be List of Jewish American journalists per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). 24.17.48.241 06:58, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have sourced the list in accordance with Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiability policies. Basically, anyone described by a reliable source as "Jewish" or "Jewish-American" (i.e. as opposed to "of Jewish descent", "Jewish mother", etc.) is on the list. Here are the people I couldn't find anything for. If you have a reliable source that fits that please restore the names:
Mad Jack O'Lantern 17:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I've removed these entries:
Because none of them are strictly speaking, journalists.-- Isotope23 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The list of Jewish journalists seems awfully short. I think the Wikipedia folks trying to protect their fellow Jews are doing a disservice to Judaism and journalism. For the most part, these people should be lauded in sunlight, not hidden in the dark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.119.18 ( talk) 17:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
I listed this on Request for Comments. Essentially, the issue is whether or not the entries above could be construed as journalists. I won't rehash the arguments as you can read them above. Comments on this would be appreciated.-- Isotope23 12:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
If people who have issues with executives being journalists could perhaps post on the talk page and see that we already have an RfC in progress, that would be marvelous. Nokilli 20:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
References
As a Jew, I can unhesitatingly declare that the world would be a better place if it contained more believing Christians.
The NNDB is a junky trivia gathering site, like the IMDB, though a bit better. I've moved Dan Abrams and Ira Glass here pending sources. Whenver creating a new entry, btw, NNDB usually uses info straight from the person's Wikipedia entry, which is flattering to us, but not useful if our info comes back to us. Mad Jack 16:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I am simply not restoring anything from trivia web sites, and will revert up until my 3RR is up. These sites have caused so much misinformation on the net that we then have to fix. I have already made this page better, by sourcing all of it and insisting on reliable sources for any additional names, which I am doing. I am also, in fact, making Wikipedia better, by not sourcing to junky web sites. If Dan Abrams is Jewish, you should have no problem finding a reliable source that says so. My argument, as I've said, is based on this - how would the NNDB know? For example, an interview with Dan Abrams where he or the interviewer says that Abrams is Jewish would be a good source. Respected publications would be good sources. A second-hand trivia site is only reliable if we know where it gets its info. If not, it simply is not. Mad Jack 22:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not true - I can delete the entry if I can't prove it's correct, not if I can prove it's false. Since there is no ruling on NNDB, then we are free to discuss the NNDB, and my question to you is why would sourcing something to the NNDB be more reliable then sourcing it to Wikipedia? How would they know? Mad Jack 05:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what this article actually accomplishes. Please explain why it shouldn't be deleted. -- Leifern 23:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps one of you could then explain why this list should go, and not any of the others? Please note that we've already had a AfD for List of Jews, and the vote was keep. Also note that this list exceeds the standards used for the other lists, in that citations are provided for entries throughout. Nokilli 01:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I listed it for deletion. There's been no convincing argument presented as to its utility, and it's clear that the accuracy problems are not going to be resolved. Dbratton 18:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed a number of names which used unreliable sources (e.g. blogs), or didn't actually say the person was a Jew. Being married by a Rabbi, for example, is no guarantee that one is a Jew, since many Rabbis perform intermarriages. Similarly, coming from a Zionist family does not mean one is a Jew. Please ensure that all entries comply with Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Jayjg (talk) 01:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The claims that they are Jews are not verifiable, as the sources used are not reliable. The entries "should" only stay if the conform with policy. As for Koppel, he is best known as an ABC news anchor, not a NTY columnist. Please do not restore items that violate policy, and please do not edit-war - see [WP:3RR]]. Jayjg (talk) 01:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I have now inserted comments directly in the text, explaining exactly what the issue with each item is. I welcome further attention to this matter. Jayjg (talk) 02:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Wow, Leifern, you coulda said "Hi!" or something on the talk page before doing a baseless revert. Oh wait, is that _really_ Leifern? Ha! Nokilli 03:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've been brooding over this a while, and I think I've come to a realization that may be helpful. Let's compare this with, say, lists of Norwegian-Americans. There is such a list in Wikipedia, but it's a) very short, and b) not the least bit contentious. There is no need to scrupulously document that Peter Graves is Norwegian-American, because that aspect is of only passing interest. No doubt, hundreds if not thousands of notable people of Norwegian-American ancestry never get categorized that way on Wikipedia. It simply doesn't matter much. But for reasons that may be interesting in themselves, there is an obsession about lists such as these. Katie Couric, who is Jewish only in the most technical sense, is listed, as if it matters at all to her notability. But really, it shouldn't. Why should it? -- Leifern 20:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't even know what that means - "more Jewish" than someone is "Norwegian-American?" Karl Rove is Norwegian-American because his adoptive father was Norwegian-American. Does that make him more or less Norwegian-American than someone whose biological father was Norwegian-American? -- Leifern 20:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This discussion does not appear to have been active for more than 10 years, but I just came across the article, and I am having trouble understanding why we need an article listing "Jewish-American Journalists." Lists like these are subject to misuse by the anti-Semitic websites, who will use the information in support of their contention that "the Jews" control "the media." It is interesting to know who is Jewish, and there is nothing wrong with that, but other than that, I do not see the point. John Paul Parks ( talk) 20:00, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Reply to the above: Your complaint appears to come down to the perennial fear of all censors that the truth should not be permitted to fall into the wrong hands .The issue of Jewish influence in the media is of ongoing and historic interest for a number of reasons, not least of which is the very tendency toward self-serving censorship which you yourself appear to advocating. Orthotox ( talk) 18:24, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
Someone here seems to be under the impression that everyone who works for a news organization is necessarily a journalist, but of course that isn't true. News organizations employ lawyers, advertising people, IT people, human-resources people, accountants, and, of course, journalists. Sometimes it's someone from the journalism side that is chosen to head the organization, and sometimes it's a lawyer or an advertising executive. Just because someone becomes the president doesn't mean s/he's a journalist. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:13, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a list of journalists, not an appendix to an argument that Jews control the media. General Electric owns NBC which operates NBC News - does that make the head of General Electric, Jack Welch, a journalist? Of course not, similarly, the president of a network that has a news division is not, by extension a journalist in the same way that he's not a comedian, talk show host, soap opera diva or cartoonist (if his network has Saturday morning cartoons.)
I suspect that most of the presidents or managing directors of news divisions eg NBC News are career journalists who have risen through the ranks and should be considered journalists in the same way that a newspaper editor is considered a journalist (though perhaps we should require proof from the individuals biography rather than making an assumption). However, the president of the network (or the CEO of the company that owns the network) cannot be considered a journalist unless he or she has had an earlier career as a reporter or news director. Similarly, publishers and/or proprietors of newspapers, generally, should not be considered journalists unless they have spent a significant part of their earlier career as reporters, editors or columnists and rose through the ranks. Homey 04:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if its possible but I'd be more comfortable with a broader article called List of American journalists by religion or List of American journalists by ethnicity that doesn't take one group in isolation. Is there even a List of Irish-American journalists or List of Roman Catholic American journalists? Homey 04:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
As for the tag at the top of the article, perhaps we should change it to:
Homey 05:08, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
"i.e., a person who practises journalism, the gathering and dissemination of information, Jack Welch is a journalist."
Read that definition again. Welch neither gathers nor disseminates information. Neither do the CEOs of companies that own news departments, nor those that own other companies that have news departments. Iacocca was an automotive engineer, sales person and then an auto designer before becoming an exec. Even as an exec he was intimately involved in the details around automaking. Homey 19:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
For which stories has Welch gathered information? Which stories has he reported? Homey 00:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I've already read it - yes, there is corporate interference, that doesn't make Welch a journalist. Media lawyers will often tell a news organization not to run a story or to change this or that or add this. Does that mean a media lawyer is also a journalist? Homey 01:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
It's a definition of journalist that no one actually uses and reflects your particular POV. Homey 02:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any mention of Jack Welch or of the President of Disney in that article. I did say an argument can be made for the heads of news divisions being journalists and I would apply that to the heads of news channels such as CNN but not to CEOs of media conglomarates etc. Homey 02:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
No, he fits the definition of CEO. Anyway, this is circular and is becoming original research. Can you find a source that actually refers to Jack Welch, or any of the CEOs you're referred to, as journalists? Your source details Welch's interference but it does not call him a journalist. Do you have a source that explicitly refers to Katherine Graham as a journalist? Homey 03:35, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
ie I'd like you to come up with a sources that, for instance, says something like "Les Moonves, in his career as a journalist..." ie direct applications of the term "journalist" (or "reporter") to any or all of these individuals. If you can't do that claiming they are journalists is OR. Homey 03:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the posts above, it seems every other editor on this page agrees with the fact that you can't put someone on a list of journalists who hasn't actually been called one. I am not making any judgments and express no opinions on whether the people they queried are journalists or not. But what I am saying is, if editors have challenged material on the basis, in this case, that several people listed are not journalists, then you must find sources that actually describe them as journalists, per WP:V. Mad Jack 08:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It's quite simple - if your assertion that a particular CEO is a journalist is valid then you should be able to find a source that describes that specific individual as a journalist. If you cant then the claim is OR and the person doesn't belong on the list. Homey 21:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
IMHO the exception is Mortimer Zuckerman, not because he's a media proprietor and CEO but because he is also editor in chief of US News and World Report and one of the magazine's columnists. Homey 17:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
That's your POV. You must cite a source that names the individual as a journalist. Homey 22:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
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It would seem to make far more sense to list the category automatically, if that's possible. If not, maybe this page could just redirect to the category. Franzboas ( talk) 05:01, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
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Why does this list even exist? Antisemitism is the answer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:1100:13d5:b044:bc57:2a09:c5b1 ( talk) 22:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)