This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Korean ethnic nationalism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This article was nominated for deletion on 13 August 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Korea Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Korea, a collaborative effort to build and improve articles related to Korea. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the documentation.KoreaWikipedia:WikiProject KoreaTemplate:WikiProject KoreaKorea-related articles Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Sociology Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Molecular Biology: Genetics This article is within the scope of WikiProject Molecular Biology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Molecular Biology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Molecular BiologyWikipedia:WikiProject Molecular BiologyTemplate:WikiProject Molecular BiologyMolecular Biology articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. This article is supported by the Genetics task force (assessed as Low-importance).

A fact from Korean ethnic nationalism appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 26 August 2010 ( check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the pure blood theory in Korea says that all Koreans descend from a single, purest and cleanest source of ancestors? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/August.

Some discussion of the ethnic Korean populations in China and Russia would be relevant here - they come from outside the two Koreas, but are indigenous to certain territories adjacent to North Korea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.76.138.45 ( talk) 00:25, 5 April 2017 (UTC) reply

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Korean ethnic nationalism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110725232752/http://www.dhseol.org/activity/ein2006_06.html to http://www.dhseol.org/activity/ein2006_06.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{ source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:50, 8 May 2017 (UTC) reply

Noting for good measure for established editors that there seems to be a coordinated off-wiki effort by incel Korean ultranationalist editors based on this post on Reddit, aiming to remove or whitewash negative aspects of this article. John Yunshire ( talk) 01:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC) reply

While I don’t agree with all of the article, I will point out that as the person who submitted a previous correction on the initial definition, it is pointedly biased that Korean ethnic nationalism is being defined as racist and chauvinist, but other forms of ethnic nationalism make no such mention in their first line definition. I.E. Japanese Nationalism is not labeled as racist, there’s no mention of racism with in White nationalism’s entire introductory section, and so on and so forth. I would say that if those are to be included on the page, it shouldn’t be included in the base definition unless we wish to go to all other pages defining other forms of ethnic or racial nationalism and specifically label them as being racist and chauvinist as well. 2603:8001:6501:4C82:2536:1527:575C:871E ( talk) 03:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Group reply in English (for public record; someone posted in Korean here, replying to them as well):

There is no editorial "team" on Wikipedia. I also dislike Mureungdowon's edits, and I have similar complaints to you (although I disagree with parts of your complaints, will explain). Mureungdowon is neurotic, biased, and continues to break rules by making sockpuppets and continuing their disruptive edits.

I am one of the only editors fixing problems with Korea-related articles. There aren't even enough people for a "team".

While I agree the tone of this article is biased, the situation is more complicated than you realize, which is why I haven't gone through and just deleted most of it. by rule, comparison between articles alone is not an appropriate standard for deletion. Comparison can be a useful reference point, but if you want to edit it, you better be prepared to debate. That's how Wikipedia works.

Relevant Wikipedia rules are WP:NOTABILITY and WP:VERIFY. If something is notable and verifiable to a reliable source, it can be included.

So given that I also dislike this article, why did I not fix it? Because I'm only one person and I have dozens of other things that I want to fix. Untangling this mess of an article is a headache, because not all of it is false, it's just been worded poorly by a neurotic person who I don't always have the energy to deal with.

In short, if you dislike this article, instead of asking me to fix it (there is no team of people who will do it for you, really mostly just me), learn how Wikipedia works, make an account (anonymous IP users are distrusted), and fix it yourself. Please help me. I am one of the only frequent editors on Korea-related topics on the English Wikipedia. toobigtokale ( talk) 06:48, 16 January 2024 (UTC) reply

As a suggestion, one way to fix this article would be to claim issues with WP:NPOV and WP:CONTENTIOUS. Mureungdowon was known for making bad edits, so their reputation is also a supporting argument. toobigtokale ( talk) 06:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC) reply

Gave it a quick revision, I'm still not happy with it. The article has issues with jumping to conclusions that aren't explicitly written, WP:UNDUE, or WP:SYNTHESIS. However, racism is very much real in Korea. You'd be surprised at how little I can delete given that it aligns with the sources.

If anything, articles about other ethnic nationalism should be made more harsh. Racism is not exclusive to Korea, and I'd argue in some ways places like Eastern Europe, Latin America, or the Middle East are worse with their racism. toobigtokale ( talk) 07:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC) reply

I do have an account, I just forgot it’s username, so congrats. I’m on a new one now. /lh

Also I get that, and I welcome the debate. But I think that my comparison is a worthwhile one because if you’re trying to avoid biased language then the comparison is useful in proving the point that the language was biased.

I was also, personally, not saying that all mentions of racism should be deleted. I think the racism should be discussed, bc there is definite racism in the ideology. but immediately prescribing Korean Ethnic Nationalism as racist and chauvinist in the first line description is very different than discussing racism. It is presupposition right out the gate, and presents what’s clearly an opinion before we even define the term. That’s my personal issue. Define the term before we discuss its idealogical issues. Like the definition of ethnic nationalism isn’t ‘racist ideology.’ While ethnic nationalism is a racist ideology, that’s not its actual definition.

I should also make it clear that I’m not with that group, nor have I ever been. I’m a Korean anarchist. Bingsujung ( talk) 19:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC) reply

I agree with most of what you wrote and in fact already adjusted the writing to reflect what you wrote, I was more speaking to the collective angry people. Also, Korea-related articles need serious revision. My asking you to work with an account should not be a "congrats", it should be "if I care about how Korea is portrayed I'll do this". This article is far from alone. toobigtokale ( talk) 22:54, 19 January 2024 (UTC) reply

@ John Yunshire, while I think some of the broad strokes of your editing are fine, I think part of the dissatisfaction with how you've been protecting this article is justified.

The article has significant issues, and your responses, instead of pointing people towards how to fix them or even identifying the specific policies that the edits violate, are often glib and uninformative (even without edit comment, which is considered not good practice). While you shouldn't be targeted by off-site reddit users, I'd also like to ask you to make more of an effort to explain things if you undo more edits in the future. toobigtokale ( talk) 07:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC) reply

This is a contentious topic, which means it demands serious and rigorous scholarship. This article's main issue is that it lacks it.

It depends on the scenario, but citing opinion pieces is generally not acceptable for contentious claims. I kept the Gi-Wook Shin article for now because Shin seems to be a respected scholar who's written a book on this topic, but some of the claims he makes in the opinion piece alone requires stronger sources. And blog posts are basically never acceptable.

So far, I've caught numerous instances where things are claimed as settled fact, when it's just the opinion of a few scholars. Some of those times I agree with those scholars, but that's still unacceptable. At the very least, we must say, "Scholar X believes that Y".

Do a better job. This is a serious topic that impacts many people, so treat it seriously. toobigtokale ( talk) 08:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC) reply