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This article is absolutely baseless.
Note: {{ WP India}} Project Banner with Delhi workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Delhi or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- Amartyabag TALK2ME 15:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
According to [3], Mongols invaded Singh and Punjab in 1296-1297, being defeated by two Khilji generals. Later another Mongol army invaded in 1298 and captured Siwistan. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 16:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I have corrected it many times, but seems someone with nationalistic ideas are deleting the mentioning of (Afghan) and only leave the turkic, whilst its comletely against wiki rules, they were treated as Afghans and always thought as afghans. infact afghan suris and lodhis were also khilji called ( ghilji or ghilzai) in afghanitsan. removing the afghan name from a dynesty which were precieved as afghans is totally unacceptable, dont remove, if u hve somthing discuss it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.211.3.220 ( talk) 21:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes but the Ghilzai are known as Pathans or Afghans. The wikipedia article on them itself, which is well sourced says that. Also, they do not maintain cultural ties with Turkey. Many north indian tribes can be called indo-iranian. Would you list all north indians as persians? No, that's ludicrious dynasties and cultures change and the information should reflect that. This was an Afghan dynasty and the only reason people insist on hiding that today is due to the war. They want to make Afghans think they have only been the victims and destroy their society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.141.204.116 ( talk) 16:12, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
The sources in the article seem to agree that the Khilji had been Pashtunized (or "had adopted some Afghan habits and customs") during their settlements in present-day Qalat, Zabul Province, Ghazni, etc before arriving in India. They confirm the Khilji were not just normal or pure Turks. I think we should be careful in wording to reflect the influence of the Pashtuns on the Khilji better in the article in light of these sources. Khestwol ( talk) 16:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
brother but source does not mention pashtunized, it could be elaborated but not be called pashtunized as they spoke persian or turkic language. they did not speak pashto or else that would have been mentioned, " "Khalji Dynasty". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 2010-08-23. this dynasty, like the previous Slave dynasty, was of Turkic origin, though the Khiljī tribe had long been settled in what is now Afghanistan..."
Saladin1987 16:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
The Turkic Khilji must not be confused with the Pastun Ghalzi tribe. Minhāju-s Sirāj (1881). Tabaḳāt-i-nāsiri: a general history of the Muhammadan dynastics of Asia, including Hindustān, from A.H. 194 (810 A.D.) to A.H. 658 (1260 A.D.) and the irruption of the infidel Mughals into Islām. Bibliotheca Indica #78 1. Calcutta, India: Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal (printed by Gilbert & Rivington). p. 548. (translated from the Persian by Henry George Raverty). Also minhaj siraj i guess mentions that too but maybe i am wrong, to the extent i know khiljis were turks but had some customs adopted and its the modern writers who have made that statement of afghanistan not the writers of that time, if i am wrong i would appreciate if someone could correct me Saladin1987 17:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Khilji's were not Pashtunized, they were Pashtuns, i don't know they are seen as "turkic" there was nothing Turkic about them or their customs. They were seen as Afghans by local Indians and as Turks. Even the Ghilzai in Afghanistan are of 100% Iranian origin and are not Turkish nor resemble them in any way. Akmal94 ( talk) 06:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
"The dynasty is known for their faithlessness and ferocity" -- is this wording encyclopedic and suitable for the lede, or can it be changed? Khestwol ( talk) 19:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
@ Beren Dersi: I notice you have been making significant changes to the page but I am not sure of their wisdom. For instance, this edit [6] is a misrepresentation of the source and is uncalled for. The preceding paragraphs in the book explain that he was controlling the Hindu landlords. Your edit makes a feudal act appear as a religious persecution. Can you explain? .Pinging @ Ghatus: as well. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
@ Beren Dersi: , @ Kautilya3: 1) Beren Dersi said:"if you wish to call highly cited scholarly sources such as those by Sir Henry Elliott or Professor John Dowson on Khilji dynasty as baseless or out of context, please explain your rationale."
Yes.Elliot and Dowson are not used today as "credible" sources of History because of their "scholarly incompetence" and for acting as "political propagandists" of the British Raj.
Noted Scholar of Post- colonialism Partha Chatterjee (scholar) wrote in his Empire and Nation: Selected Essays 1985-2005, Columbia University Press(2010)
scholarship of Elliot and Dowson were to be questioned in subsequent decades [1]
He further wrote termed "History of India as Told by its Own Historians" as "otherwise could scarcely claim to rank higher than annals". [2]
Historian Eaton wrote
Especially influential has been the eight-volume History of India as Tol d by its Own Historians, first published in 1849 and edited by Sir Henry M. Elliot, who oversaw the bulk of the translations, with the help of John Dowson. But Elliot, keen to contrast what he understood as the justice and efficiency of British rule with the cruelty and despotism of the Muslim rulers who had preceded that rule, was anything but sympathetic to the "Muhammadan" period of Indian history. As he wrote in the book's original preface:
"The common people must have been plunged into the lowest depths of wretchedness and despondency. The few glimpses we have, even among the short Extracts in this single volume, of Hindus slain for disputing with Muhammadans, of general prohibitions agains t processions, worship, and ablutions, and of other intolerant measures, of idols mutilated, of temples razed, of forcible conversions and marriages, of proscriptions and confiscations, of murders and massacres, and of the sensuality and drunkenness of t he tyrants who enjoined them, show us that this picture is not overcharged...."2
With the advent of British power, on the other hand, "a more stirring and eventful era of India's History commences ... when the full light of European truth and discernment begins to shed its beams upon the obscurity of the past."3 Noting the far greater benefits that Englishmen had brought to Indians in a mere half century than Muslims had brought in five centuries, Elliot expressed the hope that his published translations "will make our native subjects more sensible of the immense advantag es accruing to them under the mildness and the equity of our rule."4
Elliot's motives for delegitimising the Indo-Muslim rulers who had preceded English rule are thus quite clear. Writing in 1931 on the pernicious influence that the colonial understanding of pre-modern Indian history had on subsequent generations, Mohamma d Habib remarked: "The peaceful Indian Mussalman, descended beyond doubt from Hindu ancestors, was dressed up in the garb of a foreign barbarian, as a breaker of temples, and an eater of beef, and declared to be a military colonist in the land where he h ad lived for about thirty or forty centuries.... The result of it is seen in the communalistic atmosphere of India today." [3]
It does not take a superman brain to understand the sources of Elliot and Dowson are nothing more than propaganda.
2) You are quoting "Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi" written by Ziauddin Barani in 1357 as reference to Khilji Dynasty which ended in 1320. The work is itself non-contemporary, full of sourceless and sketchy descriptions and nothing more than a "primary source". It was written to gain royal patronage which means that it was a subject of distortion to please the ruler like any such writings.
3) Sources clearly says as Kautilya3 wrote "The preceding paragraphs in the book explain that he was controlling the Hindu landlords. Your edit makes a feudal act appear as a religious persecution."
So, both your sources are not only unreliable but you are misinterpreting or cherry picking them . Thank you. Ghatus ( talk) 09:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Kautilya3:: There is no wiki policy on "you should not take this long", share a wikipedia policy page link if there is one. Please no forum like discussion on this talk page or threats; see WP:TPG for why. Let us collaborate to improve this article. In your reply and that of @Ghatus, there is one good point, but neither of you have addressed the following issues:
I invite you to add relevant content with WP:RS cites that provide alternate, non-fringe, major and minor views on anything I add. I will try to do the same for WP:NPOV. Beren Dersi ( talk) 13:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I think this discussion is too narrowly focused on individual sentences, sources, and editor's conduct (and past statements). Lets try to reset it, and see how to best deal with the subject on the whole and explain it to the reader. Will post some procedural suggestions below in a short while. Am hoping that other editors on the page who have read more on the topic than me at this point, will help implement it. Abecedare ( talk) 17:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
This article is in an amazingly bad shape (which unfortunately is not uncommon in India history articles), with no logical order in the choice, titles, or organzaization of the sections, or content within them. But since that is too big a topic to handle immediately, lets focus on the
Economic policy and administration under Khilji dynasty section, some sentences of which are being discussed above. As
of present this section is a seemingly random collection of sentences and idea, with no logical ordering and a mix of good and and bad sources. Lets remedy that!
Here are my procedural suggestions, which as I said above, I am hoping other editors on the page (who are likely more knowledgeable about the subject than I) will help implement:
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |chapterurl=
(
help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl=
ignored (|chapter-url=
suggested) (
help)I have removed the generic section on Khilji people, as it was offtopic, unrelated and undue to Khilji dynasty. It was tagged quite a while ago. The section may better belong in Turkestan or Ghilji or a new article. Beren Dersi ( talk) 22:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I did not understand what is the main name of this ethnicity. Which ones Ghilji, Ghilzai , Ghalzai, Gharzai, Khaljī , Khiljī. -- Shxahxh ( talk) 14:14, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Beren Dersi:, @ Kautilya3:, @ Abecedare:
There is no confusion over the edits done. Earlier version was misleading.
Market Regulation: Market regulation or price control was one of the achievements of Ala-ud-din. For this reason, he made crack down on "Hindu" middlemen and also confiscated Muslim aristocrats' property. But, the reference to the confiscation of Muslim property was omitted in the earlier version. Not only that, the world "middleman" was also omitted from the phrase "Hindu middleman" and it gave the whole para an impression of the religious prosecution of "Hindus". But, reality was different. Muslim population centred around cities and hence the agricultural market was under the total control of "Hindu middlemen".
Massacres: Khiljis massacred their enemies. In conquering areas they massacred "Hindus". They also massacred Muslims( biggest massacre is Ala-ud-din's order to kill 30000 new Muslims in a day). Howevre, in the earlier version the reference to Muslims was ommitted and again made it as a case of religious prosecution of "Hindus".
HINDU: Timur in 1398 used the term "Hindu" in order to mean Indians(both Hindu and Muslims). So, in what sense Khiljis(1290-1320) used the term "Hindu"? The Khiljis called themselves "Turks". Since you are quoting from primary sources, one has to be highly careful.
Sources: "Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi" is a primary, non contemporary source. Elliot and Dowson's work is nothing but a collection of translations with their "scholarship" and "intentions" being in question. Ghatus ( talk) 12:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for this map? According to KS Lal's History of the Khaljis (p. 220-221): "On the north-west, river Indus may roughly be taken as the boundary line of the Indian empire. Beyond the Indus the land was constantly disputed between the Mongols and the Indians. [...] On the east .Turkish empire does not seem to have extended beyond Benares and Jaunpur (Sarju). Bihar and Bengal were ruled by Harasimka and Shamsuddin Firoz respectively, both independent of the Sultanate of Delhi."
While Bengal did form a part of the Delhi Sultanate under the Mamluks, this doesn't seem to be true for the Khiljis. utcursch | talk 18:40, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved — Amakuru ( talk) 22:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Khilji dynasty →
Khalji dynasty – The majority of the scholarly sources on this topic prefer "Khalji" to "Khilji". This includes older sources such as
History of the Khaljis, as well as more recent publications, such as
Peter Jackson's The Delhi Sultanate (2003) and
Satish Chandra's Medieval India (2004). Encyclopædia Britannica also calls it
Khalji dynasty, as do India's
NCERT
[9] and Pakistan's Ministry of Education
[10] (page 10).
Google Books search results:
Therefore, I propose that this article be moved to "Khalji dynasty". The related articles (e.g. the names of the dynasty's rulers) should also be moved accordingly. utcursch | talk 19:50, 13 September 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa ( talk) 20:58, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
References
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Change "Madura" to "Madurai"
Note: It is wrongly given as "Madura" in Tamilnadu. The city name in Tamilnadu is "Madurai". Also the hyperlink wrongly leads to an Indonesian city. K.ratan ( talk) 03:09, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Khaljis "POV and fringe". First of, please explain what this actually means. I only added one line from a book and quoted it and yet is somehow counts as expressing my point of view.The book clearly states: "At the same time Jalaludin, who was Ariz-i-Mamalik , had gone to Baharpur , attended by a body of his relations and friends. Here he held a muster and inspection of the forces. He came of a race different from that of the Turks ; so he had no confidence in them , nor would the Turks own him as belonging to the member of his friends" Mr.Elliott's History of India (Vol.III page 34)" Hayras123 ( talk) 00:54, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation"
Ignoring the fact that the Ghilzai tribe of Afghans are descendants of Khaljis, [1] there are many other reputable, non-biased sources that clearly state that Khaljis were not of Turk origin. In fact, it is clearly stated that they are of Afghan origin [2] [3] Hayras123 ( talk) 22:11, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
References
So just because Niazi and Habibi are Pashtuns, disqualifies them for giving their assertion on the topic? That's not very noble of you but shows you are biased. For your information Habibi was a historian himself and much of his work is deemed reliable in the western world. Also, the sources from Minhaj and Nasiri deny that they had any Turkic roots and so do most of the sources in the article. You're basically POV pushing. Akmal94 ( talk) 20:42, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
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The article is completely biased and uses words such as "The dynasty is known for its faithlessness" etc. This is against the Wiki spirit and culture AFAIK and I'd like to see it neutralized to present a broader picture instead of telling the story from POV of the enemies of Khilji Empire. 110.36.227.66 ( talk) 10:00, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
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"The change is Khiljis are not turkic," Major RTI ridgeway in his book "Pathans" has called khiljis as Ghilzai Nation. The Khalj and Afghans have always been mentioned together and indispensably their place or origin and race was common. Abu Nasr Mohammad, son of Abdul Jabbar Utbi (1023 A.D.), in the conquests of Subuktagin writes as follows: "the Afghans and Khalj obeyed Subuktagin and reluctantly joined his forces." [1]Ibn-ul-Athir has also mentioned this event in the same manner. [2] [1] Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.
Minorsky clearly writes that these Khaljies are the ancestors of the present Afghan Ghalji. Barthold and Haig have written the same in the Islamic Encyclopedia.[1] It can therefore be said that Khalji or Ghalji were related to the Hepthalites and Zabul rulers, since the Helthalites, (Hayatila of Arabs) ruled over Zabulistan. Their features struck on coins resemble the features of the Ghalji youth who live in this area and have high noses, almond eyes, bushy hair, and strong features. [1] Minorsky’s comments on Hudud-al-Alam, 348 FawadAliKhan11 ( talk) 09:24, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
"A Comprehensive History of Medieval India" by Salma Ahmed Farooqui Pg 67, (is on Pearson, www.pearsoned.co.in/salmaahmedfarooqui), The origin of the Khiljis lack clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to the Turkish stock while others attribute their origins to the Afghans. Zia Barani, the Indian historian (1357 A.D.) in his book Tarikh-e-Ferozshahi, has a special chapter where he says the king must be among the Turks but when Malik Jalaluddin Khalji ascended the Delhi throne he says: “the people found it difficult to tolerate a Khalji king.”[4] Since Khaljies were not Turks Indian historians also considered them to be Afghans.[5]
e. In Afghan literature the Khalji of India have been referred to as being Afghan Ghalji. Khushal Khan Khattak, the famous Pashto poet (died 1688 A.D.) in a long elegy enumerates the Afghan kings and considers Sultan Jalaluddin Khalji (1290-1295 A.D.) to be a Ghalji of Wilayat (Afghanistan). “Then Sultan Jalaluddin ascended the Delhi throne who was a Ghalji from Wilayat.”[6] f. Until the time of Babur, the founder of the Indian Mughal dynasty the Ghalji of present Ghazna have been mentioned as Afghan Khalji and not as Turks. Babur says: “In 1507 A.D. we had ridden out of Kabul with the intention of over-running the country of Afghan Khaljies, northeast of Ghazni and brought back with us one hundred thousand head of sheep and other things.”[11]
[4] Zia Barani’s Tarikh-e Ferozshahi, 173. Calcutta. [5] Tazkira-e Bahaduran-e Islam, 2/331. [6] Divan of Khushal Khan 669, Kandahar. [11] Tuzuk-e Babur 127, Bombay.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.123.59.224 ( talk) 17:30, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes the terms Afghan and Pashtun are not synonyms, however Pashtuns today are divided in three major groups, Afghans, Pashtun proper and Ghilzai (of turkish extract), The sources I quoted are as authoritative and reliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
"Pathans" by Major RTI Ridgway, In this book Genealogical Tree of the Pathan Nation attached at end of book shows Afghans, Pasthun proper and Ghilzai/Khilji, All Tribes under each group and origins are mentioned. for example Durrani mentioned under Afghan, Afridi under Pashtun proper, Lodhis under Ghilzai/Khilji
Another book "Afghan despotism in India" by Iqtadar Hussain Siddiqui, can't find it at home to mention page number( but will update page number) quotes Khiljis, Lodhis and Surs as Ghilzai.
Jawaharlal Nehru "The Discovery of India" Pg 238 "The Afghans differed also from the more highly cultured and sophisticated Arabs and Persians.. One of their great rulers, Alauddin Khilji, himself married a Hindu lady and so did his son, Some of the rulers were racially Turks such as Qutbud-Din Aibak, the Sultana Razia and Iltutmish, but the nobility and army continued to be mainly Afghans." Nehru hence makes a distinction between Afghans and Turks and considered Khilji to be Afghan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 10:06, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
I have quoted something all afghans and pashtoons and ghilzais know the three have different roots. Major Ridgeway's book was the main source for recruiting Afghans, pashtuns and ghilzais when the british ruled India. Khiljis they are "ethnic Afghans" along with "ethnic turkic", or vice versa. That is exactly what the Afghans or pashtuns consider ghilzais to be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.123.63.32 ( talk) 21:36, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
To utcursh. I think you should wipe out the "wrongly" here, as everybody disagrees. Because it doesnt make sence. only considered will fix the problem. And secondly you should mention it a turko afghan origin, and adding the khalji location (from where the name is derived) will help more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E432:23EF:29A1:4913 ( talk) 12:11, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
firstly about bakhtyar, you are simply imposing your version of history on others. secondly 90 percent of the sources doesnt say wrongly. It is wiki not some ones personal home. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E432:23EF:29A1:4913 ( talk) 12:21, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The khalj are different from Turks in the below sources, (we'll leave who is afghan, pashtun or ghilzai for another discussion) Am quoting Minhaj Siraj, He says that the Khaljies live near Ghazni, Garmseer and Ghor, but has not said anything about these people being Turks. On the other hand, he clearly refers to other rulers of Turkish descent as Turks. Khalj, which has been altered to Khalakh by calligraphers, was a well-known word among geographers long before the compilation of Hudud-ul-Alam. Ibne Khurdadbeh (844-848 A.D.) also speaks about Khaljiya. He confirms that there is a difference between Khalj and says: “the winter dwelling of Turks of Kharlukh (Kharlikh) is near Taraz and nearby them lie the pastures of Khalj (Khaljiya).[2] [2] Al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik, 28.
The Khalj and Afghans have always been mentioned together and indispensably their place or origin and race was common. Abu Nasr Mohammad, son of Abdul Jabbar Utbi (1023 A.D.), in the conquests of Subuktagin writes as follows: "the Afghans and Khalj obeyed Subuktagin and reluctantly joined his forces."[1]
Ibn-ul-Athir has also mentioned this event in the same manner. [2] [1] Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.
Mahmud Kashghari (1074 A.D.), who was of Turkish descent and a Turkologist says: The ghuz of Turkmans comprise 24 tribes, but two Khaljiya tribes resemble the Turks are not considered Turks.[1] This Turkish historian who has studied the Turks and even note their tribes, refrains from adding the name of Khalj with the Turks.[2]
[1] Divan Lughat-ul-Turk 3/307, Istanbul, 1915. [2] Divant Lughat-ul-Turk, photographic publication p. 4-41.
Fakhruddin Mubarak Shah, well known as Fakhr-e Mudabir and author of Adab-al-Harb and other famous books, writing on the History of India (1205 A.D.) says that the armies of Sultan Qutb-ud-Din comprised of Turks, Ghori, Khorasani, Khalji and Indian soldiers.[10] [10] Introduction to the History of Mubarak Shah, 33. London, 1927.
A manuscript on the miracles of Sultan Sakhi Sarwar[7] (known as Lakhdata died 1181 A.D. and buried in Shah Kot of Dera Ghazi Khan) is written in Persian whose author is unknown. In this book the author relates a story from Tarikh-e Ghazna by Abu Hamid-al-Zawali and quotes Hasan Saghani.[8] “Kabul Shah, Khingil, who according to Yaqubi lived about 779 A.D.[9] sent a poem in the Khaljiya language to the Loyak of Ghazni.” Analysis of this poem shows that it is ancient Pashto which is said to have been the language of Khaljiya. This means that the Khalji spoke Pashto, [7] For the biography of this saint refer to Khazinat-ul-Asfiya 2/248 and Ab-e Kawtbar by Shaikh Ikram p. 91 onwards. [8] Born in Lahore 1181, died 1252 A.D. [9] Tarikh-al-Yaqubi 2/131.
Minhaj Siraj’s statement is worth consideration in which he says: “Sultan Jalaluddin Khwarazm Shah and Malik Khan of Heart reached Ghaznayn and a large army of Turks, and rulers of Ghor, Tajik, Khalji and Ghori gathered at their service.”[10] Here Minhaj Siraj mentions the Turks and Khalj as two separate entities. Juwaini, in Tarikh-e Jahankusha also speaks about the presence of Khalji in the battle of Parwan and the defeat of the Genghis army.[11] [10] Tabaqat-e Nasiri 2/259. [11] Jahan Kusha of Juwayni 2/194. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 18:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Just because Abdul Hai is afghan doesn't mean it is biased, rather answer his points raised by your sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 18:49, 23 March 2018 (UTC) The Khilji Dynasty - Padma Mohan Kumar, freelance writer email: padma413@gmail.com
The Khiljis were the second dynasty to rule over Delhi. The fall of the Slave dynasty, which was the first ruling line of kings, was followed by the accession of Jalal ud din Firuz Khilji, the founder of the Khilji dynasty, to the throne of Delhi in 1290. Historical scholars describe this change as the Khilji revolution because it marked the end of Turkish domination. The Khiljis were Turko-Afghan in origin and the family owed its name ‘Khilji’ to an Afghan village or town known as ‘Qalat-e-Khilji’ or Fort of Khilji. They had originally settled in Afghanistan but later on they had made Delhi their home. Her sources: A Comprehensive History of India: Comprehensive history of medieval India By B.N. Puri, M.N. Das — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
My request now "Khiljis are of Turkic origin and ethnic Afghans", Wikipedia says they are ethnic Turks and wrongly considered ethnic Afghans which is not the same as my request or "Turko-Afghan",
on Abdul Hai, we are debating his primary sources not what he has to say, (scroll up and see Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.),
not to mention BN Puri and Salma Ahmed Siddiqui who I have quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 08:00, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
My change I want is "Khiljis were turkish origin and ethnic Afghans" or "Khiljis were Turko Afghans origin"
Your reading the sources that disputes these scholars, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui Pg 67, A comprehensive History of Medieval India "The origin of the Khiljis lacks clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to Turkish stock while others attribute their origin to the Afghans. The older nobility did not recognize the Turkish origin of the Khiljis. Considering them to be low born Afghan, they even desisted from helping to them come to power. " This contradicts both your sources, she hasn't given an origin to the khiljis, your sources call them ethnic Turkish, and, she didn't use word wrongly considered Afghans.
Wiki is disregarding these sources and calling them only ethnic Turkish and wrongly considered Afghans.
On page 68, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui " By the end of his rule Jalaluddin had sowed the seeds for two major changes that mitigated the harsher aspects of Balban's rule. The first being the Afghan descent of the Khiljis, which was used to harness the support of the Afghan nobles; and the second was giving higher offices to Indian Muslims who had so far been ignored by Balban because of his belief that right to govern was vested with Turks alone."
The change "Khiljis are Turko Afghan in origin", is also acceptable by me.
The Khilji Dynasty
- Padma Mohan Kumar, freelance writer email: padma413@gmail.com
The Khiljis were the second dynasty to rule over Delhi. The fall of the Slave dynasty, which was the first ruling line of kings, was followed by the accession of Jalal ud din Firuz Khilji, the founder of the Khilji dynasty, to the throne of Delhi in 1290. Historical scholars describe this change as the Khilji revolution because it marked the end of Turkish domination. The Khiljis were Turko-Afghan in origin and the family owed its name ‘Khilji’ to an Afghan village or town known as ‘Qalat-e-Khilji’ or Fort of Khilji. They had originally settled in Afghanistan but later on they had made Delhi their home. Her sources: A Comprehensive History of India: Comprehensive history of medieval India By B.N. Puri, M.N. Das BN Puri and M.N. Das, — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 16:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
No the article says they are ethnic Turks, not Turkic origin, the article never says from Afghanistan, and no I am not repeating, your not able to answer why you've said they are wrongly considered Afghans, You also need to dispute the primary sources I have quoted and BN Puri and Salma Ahmad, Turko Afghan means they are from Afghanistan, considered Afghan not ethnic Turkish only turkic origin. You havn't replied why your sources are correct and these are wrong. Wikipedia should have said they are Turkic origin, and distinct from the turks, and were from Afghanistan, (not wrongly considered Afghan), the above sources should suffice this talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 20:07, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
"Afghan Despotism in India" by Iqtidar Husain Siddiqui The Preface says he is Head of History Department, Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh, August 4, 1969. Pg v "The statement of the contemporary writers indicates that it included the Turks, Ghorids, Khurasanis, Khaljis, and the Indians" In footnote Fakhr Muddabir p33, Pg vi Introduction, "The strenghth of the Khaljis whom the Turks considered inferior to them, had considerably increased. The non turks nobles also aligned with them against the Turks who wanted to oust them from the nobility and monopolise key posts and territories. As a result the Turkish rule was overthrown and throne passed on to Khiljis." Salma Ahmed Siddiqui Pg 67, A comprehensive History of Medieval India "The origin of the Khiljis lacks clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to Turkish stock while others attribute their origin to the Afghans. The older nobility did not recognize the Turkish origin of the Khiljis. Considering them to be low born Afghan, they even desisted from helping to them come to power. " On page 68, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui " By the end of his rule Jalaluddin had sowed the seeds for two major changes that mitigated the harsher aspects of Balban's rule. The first being the Afghan descent of the Khiljis, which was used to harness the support of the Afghan nobles; and the second was giving higher offices to Indian Muslims who had so far been ignored by Balban because of his belief that right to govern was vested with Turks alone." she refers "afghan descent" of the khiljis in above paragraph, You've already made changes to this article I just saw. abraham early is right to say had intermarried with local afghans, but term "wrongly" considered Afghans still there.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 09:36, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
The sources that you mentioned above B.N. puri and Salama Ahmed Farooqi explicitly mentions that they were/considered Afghan. And both are very reliable sources as their main work is on medieval india "delhi sultanate" B.N.puri https://books.google.no/books?id=Y7fUHMEDAyEC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=B.+N.+Puri+khilji%27&source=bl&ots=xsioDN67S3&sig=HdBfCBTnt9mExqwdx7ps1tWyC94&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyxIyTiLjaAhXEkSwKHaM3CyMQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=B.%20N.%20Puri%20khilji'&f=false
and Salma farooqi. https://books.google.no/books?id=sxhAtCflwOMC&pg=PA65&hl=no&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
".Here is another two very important and nuetral sources. In al- hind it clearly mentions that khalaj were distint from turks and later "before dynesty" emerged as ghilzai afghans. https://books.google.no/books?id=uQ7k2vQlYxEC&pg=PA116&dq=ghaznavid+afghans+khalaj&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBlqu6irjaAhXGKywKHeMuDCAQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=ghaznavid%20afghans%20khalaj&f=false And here another main source which is explicitly focused "again" on delhi sultanate. (The Delhi Sultanate: A Political and Military History), clearly mentions that khiljis assimilated to neighbering afghans while still confined in suleiman mountains. https://books.google.no/books?id=lt2tqOpVRKgC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=ghurid+afghans&source=bl&ots=O4hR2nTKs0&sig=jGAD28j0iq3G83FVTELZwep_gbM&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPt9L5wKvaAhXHO5oKHZGmDWwQ6AEIWjAL#v=onepage&q=ghurid%20afghans&f=false. To the editers- I think the main problem is the tone of the article (not of specific author). For ex- the term 'wrongly" even contradict the article itslef, which clearly mentions that they were considered afghans. And also emphasizing on how one particuler auther is wrong while tones of other reliable sources are at hand. Hope constructive changes are made so we can all agree on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.90.199.161 ( talk) 20:57, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Please do not make
Khalaj or Khalaji (
Ghalzai) They were Turkic not Ghalzai
لطفا قبیلهٔ غَلزایی را خَلَج و یا خَلَجی نسازید
--
Shxahxh (
talk) 16:03, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
To Utcursch. You said no description of origins in opening. It should be only in origin section, so remove the khalaj people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:D5B8:F201:6FDA:73B9 ( talk) 17:29, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
But (Khalaji) should not be deleted. Brother -- Shxahxh ( talk) 12:47, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
To Utcursch. As you stated about sources, here is i think "The most important source" we simply cannot look over it. It is #Tarikh Yamini" which is written way before khalji dynesty. In that khiljis are (EXPLICITLY) considered Afghan. Now i dont request taking of tarko afghan to afghan. All i am saying is the article needs to be a little less biased, like deleting (wrongly) etc. Thank you. https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E411:A483:8D3E:92F6 ( talk) 18:21, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Here in page number 336 the author completely differentiates between khiljis and turks.
https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog/page/n375 and in the following page (467) he mentions the same geography of khiljis but call them afghan. https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog/page/n505
And here i have got an important scholarly source which is in persian (iran).
http://setarehi.blogfa.com/post/9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:20:CE72:B25C:1CD2 ( talk) 18:38, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
All the sources point out to one evidence, which is they were considered Afghan during dynesty period. Here is another scholarly source with the same outcome. https://8am.af/x8am/1396/12/02/afghan-word-and-reflection-on-afghan-identity-events-part-i/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:5D6C:63C8:FCBD:8BAB ( talk) 22:08, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
The article CLEARLY is one sided. Internationally among scholars khaljis are considered turko afghan. And all sources point out to that. Calling it "only" turkic, while removing Afghan is clearly opinion based. Hope you reconsider your position.
@ User:W28394 Clearly nearly all the sources mention them as Turks who had migrated to Afghanistan and adopted some customs of Local Pashtuns. This is for some users who want to make them Pashtun when they are Turkic. Pashtunization involves change of Language but there is no such evidence of Pashto Speaking Khalaj. They Spoke Persian and Khalaj Turkic language.
Statements from the references used within the article:
Kami2018 ( talk) 05:40, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
That is why they are called TURK O AFGHAN. So why it is changed to only turkic in the opening? As mentioned before and every body agrees they might be a turkic tribe that totally adopted afghan culture and transformed in to pashtun ghilzai tribe. Infact i have (last year) wrote the source from a book dating back to ghaznavid times where they are mentioned. It is in talk section. So change it to turko afghan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:D4E4:84A0:2250:C80C ( talk) 09:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi, i am still waiting for changes and your answer (others are also welcome to join in). It is over 3 years that i am involved in this article , so yes i have done my home work (full research). I think we should all agree again to restore the article to its previous version (which you have also edited) but with some minor changes. Agree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:9803:93DA:7688:1C45 ( talk) 21:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Kami2018 It is clearly you who is POV pushing and forcing a Turkic origin on this empire when other historians and writers (Minhaj, Habib, Habibi, Barani etc) have all favoured an Afghan origin. You're also ignoring how other Turks opposed the rise of Alauddin Khiji on the Delhi throne because he was not Turkic. And there is no such thing as "Pashtunizaiton" the Pashtuns are a tribal people and don't assimilate non-Pashtuns into their community. We have Uzbeks, Tajiks and other non-Afghans living in Pashtun areas yet are not Pashtunized yet somehow you think the Khiljis were. Akmal94 ( talk) 09:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
HI AGAIN!
You are still not writing it to its original version. After all researched and said that is the ONLY way. If not than me and others have to turn to other contributors. Hope you will take notice this time and do the right (moral) thing. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:799:5E0:6000:E166:1231:E0BD:2CBC ( talk) 10:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
There is no doubt about the origin of the Khaljis as a Turkic group. However, this article is about the Khalji DYNASTY of DELHI SULTANATE and NOT Khaljis as a whole. So lets get that clear first. Secondly, there is also NO DOUBT that Khaljis over centuries became Pashtunized and today, they are known purely as Pashtuns.
Having established two undisputed facts, lets move on to the dispute at hand. The question here is, were the Khaljis Pashtunized enough by the time Jalaluddin Khalji took the throne? Or were the Khaljis of Delhi Sultanate purely Turkic, like you imply, when they took the throne? The simple answer is NO. There is no doubt over the lineage of proper turkic dynasties like the Mamluks who were the rulers of the Delhi Sultante prior to the Khaljis. The Mamluk turks the Khaljis served and ruled later on also did not consider them turks. Why? Because they were Pashtunized by the time and were more Pashtun than their ancestors, who were more Turkic. The historians you quote rightly mention the Khaljis being of Turkic stock. However, they are also referring to the ANCESTORS of the Khaljis of Delhi. Not Khaljis themselves. They very clearly mention the Khaljis having been Pashtunized to a great extent due to which they were not looked upon as Turkic by Turk proper. Therefore, calling the Khalhi Dynasty pure turk instead of Turkic-Pashtun is historically ignorant. Even Lodi Dynasty and Hotaki Dynasty was ruled by Khalji Pashtuns and are rightly called Afghan/Pashtun Dynasties because they had entirely Pashtunized by then. Would you change their history because their ancestors were Turkic?
Also, I do not know if you are genuinely ignorant about Khalji/Ghilji/Ghilzai Pashtuns being the largest Pashtun confederacy today or whether you chose to ignore that fact? The ancestors of Khalji/Ghilji/Ghilzai Pashtuns were of Turkic stock 1200 to a 1000 years ago but were Pashtunized and are entirely Pashtun today, not turkic. The same goes for Lodis and Hotaki dynasties (both called Afghan/Pashtun dynasties) and to a great extent, to the Khalji dynasty (who were Pashtunized enough to be rejected as Turks by the Turkic nobility). This is a non issue now. I will be keeping an eye on this article and all your edits will be reverted to the historically more accurate version.
W28394 ( talk) 16:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
Clearly all the sources mention them as Turkic settled in afghanistan. I have reported your edit to the admin and i think you should read the references and then perform constructive edits. Once again: Statements from the references used within the article:
Thankyou Kami2018 ( talk) 02:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
@
User:Kami2018 Once again, you are very arrogantly wrong.
1) You are confusing ethnicity with genetics/ancestry when ethnicity is much more than that. An ethnicity is the state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition. It is not limited to genetics or ancestry.
2) This article is about the Khalji dynasty of Delhi. NOT the Khalaj people who were the ancestors of the Khalji Dynasty.
3) Like I said in my explanation earlier, Khaljis without a doubt descended from a Turkic tribe BUT were adopted into the Pashtun/Afghan ethnicity about a thousand years ago. BEFORE the Khalji Dynasty took the throne in Delhi. You ASSUME that due to Khaljis being descendants of the Khalaj people, they remained Turkic forever. Which is extremely ignorant given the fact that;
4) Pashtuns are NOT a homologous group of people. Pashtuns have historically descended from different groups of people. From the hephthalites to the khaljis. Today, the Khaljis/Ghilzais are the largest tribal confederacy among the Pashtun ethnicity and are nowhere to be found among the Turkic people. Some popular Khaljis today are/were Ashraf Ghani (President of Afghanitsan) and Mullah Omar (Ex Taliban Chief), they are referred to as Pashtuns, not Turks.
5) The main question here is whether the Khaljis of the DELHI SULTANATE were Pashtunized by the time they ascended the throne and the obvious answer is YES.
6) Like the sources state, "They were looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners". 'Wrongly' does not matter in this context as we have already established the above points about the identity of the Khalaj people, who were the ancestors of the Khalji Dynasty, and the identity of the Khalji Dynasty itself.
7) Other sources reestablish the FACT that the Khalji Dynasty of Delhi were more Afghan/Pashtun than their ancestors, the Khalaj, and that they had adopted the Afghan/Pashtun ethnicity. "The Khaljis had over the centuries adopted Afghan customs and practices, intermarried with the local people, and were therefore looked down on as non-Turks by pure-bred Turks" and "The Khaljis were a Turkic tribe but having been long domiciled in Afghanistan, had adopted some Afghan habits and customs. They were treated as Afghans in Delhi Court. They were regarded as barbarians"
8) Going by all the above statements, you will have to completely lack comprehension skills to NOT see that the Khalji Dynasty was NOT a Turkic dynasty but a Pashtun/Afghan dynasty of Turkic descent. If you have any doubt, refer to point 1 again. Thanks.
Also, going by your talk-page, you are involved in various instances of vandalism and enforcing your opinion on other articles as well for which you have been warned numerous times. So kindly spare me the "warning".
W28394 (
talk) 10:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
You should change Pashtun to Afghan (ethnonym) or Afghan as that’s the historic name for Pashtuns and what every source is referring to when talking about a connection towards Pashtuns , they use the word Afghan not Pashtun Xerxes931 ( talk) 14:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
The Khalji or Khilji [a] dynasty was a Muslim dynasty which ruled large parts of the Indian subcontinent between 1290 and 1320. [1] [2] [3] It was founded by Jalal ud din Firuz Khalji and became the second dynasty to rule the Delhi Sultanate of India. The dynasty is known for their faithlessness and ferocity, conquests into the Hindu south, [1] and for successfully fending off the repeated Mongol invasions of India. [4] [5]
YES
User:Xerxes1985 The sentence you removed does not contradict the rest of the article. See the section under the rise of Alauddin section in the article: "He would appoint his Indo-Muslim allies such as Zafar Khan(Minister of War), Nusrat Khan (Wazir of Dehli), Ayn al Mulk Multani, Malik Karfur who were famous warriors but non-Turks, which resulted in the emergence of an Indo-Muslim state." "... Ayn al-Mulk Multani was sent to conquer the Paramara kingdom of Malwa.. Then Nusrat Khan was sent to conquer Gujarat itself, where he defeated its Solanki king.[39]...It was here where Nusrat Khan captured Malik Kafur who would later become a military general.[40] Alauddin continued expanding Delhi Sultanate into South India, with the help of generals such as Malik Kafur and Khusraw Khan, collecting large war booty (Anwatan) from those they defeated"
Satish chandra on Zafar Khan, Nusrat khan and Malik Kafur
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Medieval_India_From_Sultanat_to_the_Mugh/L5eFzeyjBTQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=satish%20chandra%20zafar%20khan%20malik%20indian%20muslims&pg=PA269&printsec=frontcover&bsq=satish%20chandra%20zafar%20khan%20malik%20indian%20muslims
"Nusrat khan who was kotwal of delhi in the first reign was an Indian muslim
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44145331?seq=1
When the war minister and wazir were indian muslims according to satish chandra, (Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals-Delhi Sultanat (1206-1526_) and all the conquerors mentioned were indian muslims, it should not be a shock to talk about the rise of indian muslims in the nobility. The purpose of the statement is to talk about the composition of nobility, not the ethnic origins of the dynasty, which is what the 'origins' section is about. the khaljis were an individual family, not a nobility of its own. There is nothing contradicting between the khalji origin of the ruling family and the rise of a heterogenous indian muslim nobility which is what Mohammad Aziz Ahmad was describing in this source https://www.jstor.org/stable/44252438?seq=10#metadata_info_tab_contents Mydust ( talk)
Kansas Bear Firstly khalaj people still live in Iran and they speak turkic so they are not "initially" turkic. Secondly someone has vandalized the origin part, for example I don't see any source saying anything like that: "They were already treated entirely as Afghans by the Turkic nobles of the Delhi Sultanate during the reign of the Khalji Sultanate." [6] [7] The source says They were "wrongly" looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners. I wrote that part back with more accurate sentences, according to the sources.
This dynasty, like the previous Slave dynasty, was of Turkish origin, though the Khaljī tribe had long been settled in Afghanistan. Its three kings were noted for their faithlessness, their ferocity, and their penetration of the Hindu south.
Main points about khilji dynesty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.107.141.245 ( talk) 11:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
While the sources do seem to point toward such, there are numerous other sources that point to them being of just Turco-Afghan origin. Which is why I am fine with you putting the "Indianized" mention in its origins, where other sources point to them being "Indianized". It would not be appropriate to mention it in the lead (ie where it says they are turco-afghan), but rather in its origins section as another view upon it. @ Mydust
You could also try to reach consensus with some of the past editors of the page on whether you believe it should be included it in the lead.
For that matter, if there is a section for the Delhi Sultanate page itself for it, you can also add it there, but rather not in the lead unless a consensus is established as was done before. Noorullah ( talk) 02:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
I too disagree with using "Indianized" in the lead, because it seems to give precedence (and undue weight) to cultural influences, and the exchange of cultural traits with time, over the fundamental defining characteristics, ethnical and cultural, of the subject of the article. Otherwise, we could very well use the lead to present India as a "Turkified" country or "Mongolified" country, the Visigoths as a "Romanified" people, Japan as a "Westernized Asian" country, the USA as an "Anglified" nation, and Germany as an Americanized European country. "Indianized" also sounds like denialism and an attempt at cultural reappropriation, as if India was really the conqueror here, which is was not, even though the invader adopted cultural traits of the invaded country, which is a universal and rather unremarkable and automatical occurrence. We sometimes do use "Indianized" to refer to the states of South-east Asia (such as the Shailendra dynasty), which were indeed based in very large part on Indian cultural influx. Cultural influences, which are always mutiple and both ways, are best discussed in the body of the article, and such sweeping adjectives should only be used to the extent that reliable sources also use them, with the same prominence. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
I want to point out that Jaswant L Mehta is a not a reliable source, he’s not even a historian. Satish Chandra already gives a lengthy explanation as to why this is wrong, see talk page of “Mongol invasions of India”. I’d say that part of the origins section should be removed. Someguywhosbored ( talk) 17:29, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I see that in the original section they point to Alauddin Khalji sister being married to Indian. And one of the sources claim they were Indian I have noticed that this page has turned to a propaganda site. As well as when I provide facts with accurate citations which are all from Oxford, Cambridge University and Unesco it gets reverted for no reason. Afghan.Records ( talk) 21:49, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss this because it seems that the mentions of an “indo muslim” nobility/state still remains in this article, and it’s even in the lead. I personally believe it should be removed but I would also like the opinions of others on this. Satish Chandra had written about this view before where he extensively explains why it’s wrong, I’ll cite the full quote.
“It has been suggested that with the rise of the Khaljis, and the end of Turkish monopoly of high offices, an "integrated Indo-Muslim state" emerged in India, i.e., one in which different sections of the Muslims, including Indian Muslims, were admitted to the nobility, and high offices filled on the basis of efficiency and the pre-dilections of individual rulers, rather than on the basis of their ethnic origins. Sufficient research work has not been done to prove or effectively disprove the point. We do, however, know that the ruling classes and the rulers in India strongly believed in the principle of superiority of blood so that only those who could establish their links with 'respected' families, whether in the secular or the religious fields, were entitled to high offices in government. The earliest Muslim political thinker in India, Fakr-i-Mudabbir, who wrote during the reign of Iltutmish, says: "Posts of diwan, shagird and muharrir (revenue posts) should be given only to ahl-i-qalam (the educated sections) and whose ancestors had served rulers and amirs." Ziauddin Barani who wrote his political tract, Fatawa-i-Jahandari, while in prison during the early years of Firuz Tughlaq, echoes the same views. He says that at the time of creation, some minds were inspired with the art of letters and of writing, others with horsemanship, and yet others in the weaving, stich- craft, carpentry, hair-cutting and tanning. Thus, men should practice only those crafts and professions "for which men have been inspired (and) are practised by them". He goes on to say, "Even if a man of base or low birth is adorned with a hundred merits, he will not be able to organise and administer the country according to expectations, or be worthy of leadership or political trust." Barani was, apparently, voicing the prejudices of the ruling sections. But these views had a definite bearing on the character of the state. The state remained the exclusive preserve of the so-called "respectable" classes. The only ruler who tried to breach this policy was Muhammad bin Tughlaq who appointed a number of persons, both Hindus and Muslims, from the so-called low classes on the basis of their efficiency. But there was a strong reaction against this from the established ruling classes. Under Firuz Tughlaq, we find no reference to the appointment of such people, either Hindus or Muslims. Thus, in a highly fragmented society it is hardly possible to speak of an "integrated" Indo-Muslim state. The position of converted India Muslims from the lower classes hardly changed. The rise of a converted Tailang Brahman, Khan-i-Jahan Maqbul, to the position of wazir under Firuz Tughlaq, or of an Ain-ul- Mulk, a Hindustani, who was governor of Awadh under Muhammad Tughlaq and later was Firuz's mushrif-i-mamlik (auditor-general), should not be interpreted to mean that Indian converts from the upper castes had now become a dominant element in the nobility. Muhammad Tughlaq's induction of a large number of foreigners in the nobility, calling them 'aizza' is an index to the continued preference of foreigners over Indians. It was one of these nobles who later set up the Bahmani kingdom in the Deccan, and another in Gujarat.” pg 268. Here’s the source. https://knowledgevalley2017.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Satish-Chandra.pdf
he’s a far more authoritative source than any of the other citations listed under “indo muslim nobility”, and he cites primary sources as well. It is for all these reasons, that I decided to remove this part of the article.
@ Noorullah21 @ पाटलिपुत्र Someguywhosbored ( talk) 03:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
How come they be of Turkic origin when the origin of Hephthalites is Indo-European and scholars believe they were a tribal confederation of Iranian peoples? Afghan.Records ( talk) 23:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Doerfer who studies Khalaj and is an expert on them criticizes Minrosky suggests his content are sketchy and he was not an expert on khalaj refuting his words on Khalaj.So is what Minrosky says valuable to put here? Afghan.Records ( talk) 05:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Kasghari also said the Khalaj and Arghu are Turkified Sogdians should it be added? Ref —> Cambridge Language Surveys
Turkic
Lars Johanson Afghan.Records ( talk) 01:26, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
This
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Publisher and ISBN are switched in this citation:
{{cite book |author1=Ram Shankar Tripathi |author1-link=Ram Shankar Tripathi |title=History of Kanauj To the Moslem Conquest |date=1989 |publisher=9788120804784 |isbn=Motilal Banarsidass |page=327 |url=https://www.google.co.id/books/edition/History_of_Kanauj/U8GPENMw_psC?hl= |access-date=14 April 2024 |language=En}}
. 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 22:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
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Hello, I am an historian with focus on Indo-Iranian studies I mastered at Afghanistan and its ethnic groups history. I believe I can add some context to this page.It seems like its not well updated. Zhun.Rokko ( talk) 00:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
DNA don’t lie and show them to be close relatives to Durrani Pashtuns who belong to R1a. Also, primary sources mention them as Afghan.
208.98.222.64 (
talk) 19:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
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This article is absolutely baseless.
Note: {{ WP India}} Project Banner with Delhi workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Delhi or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- Amartyabag TALK2ME 15:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
According to [3], Mongols invaded Singh and Punjab in 1296-1297, being defeated by two Khilji generals. Later another Mongol army invaded in 1298 and captured Siwistan. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 16:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I have corrected it many times, but seems someone with nationalistic ideas are deleting the mentioning of (Afghan) and only leave the turkic, whilst its comletely against wiki rules, they were treated as Afghans and always thought as afghans. infact afghan suris and lodhis were also khilji called ( ghilji or ghilzai) in afghanitsan. removing the afghan name from a dynesty which were precieved as afghans is totally unacceptable, dont remove, if u hve somthing discuss it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.211.3.220 ( talk) 21:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes but the Ghilzai are known as Pathans or Afghans. The wikipedia article on them itself, which is well sourced says that. Also, they do not maintain cultural ties with Turkey. Many north indian tribes can be called indo-iranian. Would you list all north indians as persians? No, that's ludicrious dynasties and cultures change and the information should reflect that. This was an Afghan dynasty and the only reason people insist on hiding that today is due to the war. They want to make Afghans think they have only been the victims and destroy their society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.141.204.116 ( talk) 16:12, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
The sources in the article seem to agree that the Khilji had been Pashtunized (or "had adopted some Afghan habits and customs") during their settlements in present-day Qalat, Zabul Province, Ghazni, etc before arriving in India. They confirm the Khilji were not just normal or pure Turks. I think we should be careful in wording to reflect the influence of the Pashtuns on the Khilji better in the article in light of these sources. Khestwol ( talk) 16:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
brother but source does not mention pashtunized, it could be elaborated but not be called pashtunized as they spoke persian or turkic language. they did not speak pashto or else that would have been mentioned, " "Khalji Dynasty". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved 2010-08-23. this dynasty, like the previous Slave dynasty, was of Turkic origin, though the Khiljī tribe had long been settled in what is now Afghanistan..."
Saladin1987 16:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
The Turkic Khilji must not be confused with the Pastun Ghalzi tribe. Minhāju-s Sirāj (1881). Tabaḳāt-i-nāsiri: a general history of the Muhammadan dynastics of Asia, including Hindustān, from A.H. 194 (810 A.D.) to A.H. 658 (1260 A.D.) and the irruption of the infidel Mughals into Islām. Bibliotheca Indica #78 1. Calcutta, India: Royal Asiatic Society of Bengal (printed by Gilbert & Rivington). p. 548. (translated from the Persian by Henry George Raverty). Also minhaj siraj i guess mentions that too but maybe i am wrong, to the extent i know khiljis were turks but had some customs adopted and its the modern writers who have made that statement of afghanistan not the writers of that time, if i am wrong i would appreciate if someone could correct me Saladin1987 17:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Khilji's were not Pashtunized, they were Pashtuns, i don't know they are seen as "turkic" there was nothing Turkic about them or their customs. They were seen as Afghans by local Indians and as Turks. Even the Ghilzai in Afghanistan are of 100% Iranian origin and are not Turkish nor resemble them in any way. Akmal94 ( talk) 06:27, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
"The dynasty is known for their faithlessness and ferocity" -- is this wording encyclopedic and suitable for the lede, or can it be changed? Khestwol ( talk) 19:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
@ Beren Dersi: I notice you have been making significant changes to the page but I am not sure of their wisdom. For instance, this edit [6] is a misrepresentation of the source and is uncalled for. The preceding paragraphs in the book explain that he was controlling the Hindu landlords. Your edit makes a feudal act appear as a religious persecution. Can you explain? .Pinging @ Ghatus: as well. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 13:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
@ Beren Dersi: , @ Kautilya3: 1) Beren Dersi said:"if you wish to call highly cited scholarly sources such as those by Sir Henry Elliott or Professor John Dowson on Khilji dynasty as baseless or out of context, please explain your rationale."
Yes.Elliot and Dowson are not used today as "credible" sources of History because of their "scholarly incompetence" and for acting as "political propagandists" of the British Raj.
Noted Scholar of Post- colonialism Partha Chatterjee (scholar) wrote in his Empire and Nation: Selected Essays 1985-2005, Columbia University Press(2010)
scholarship of Elliot and Dowson were to be questioned in subsequent decades [1]
He further wrote termed "History of India as Told by its Own Historians" as "otherwise could scarcely claim to rank higher than annals". [2]
Historian Eaton wrote
Especially influential has been the eight-volume History of India as Tol d by its Own Historians, first published in 1849 and edited by Sir Henry M. Elliot, who oversaw the bulk of the translations, with the help of John Dowson. But Elliot, keen to contrast what he understood as the justice and efficiency of British rule with the cruelty and despotism of the Muslim rulers who had preceded that rule, was anything but sympathetic to the "Muhammadan" period of Indian history. As he wrote in the book's original preface:
"The common people must have been plunged into the lowest depths of wretchedness and despondency. The few glimpses we have, even among the short Extracts in this single volume, of Hindus slain for disputing with Muhammadans, of general prohibitions agains t processions, worship, and ablutions, and of other intolerant measures, of idols mutilated, of temples razed, of forcible conversions and marriages, of proscriptions and confiscations, of murders and massacres, and of the sensuality and drunkenness of t he tyrants who enjoined them, show us that this picture is not overcharged...."2
With the advent of British power, on the other hand, "a more stirring and eventful era of India's History commences ... when the full light of European truth and discernment begins to shed its beams upon the obscurity of the past."3 Noting the far greater benefits that Englishmen had brought to Indians in a mere half century than Muslims had brought in five centuries, Elliot expressed the hope that his published translations "will make our native subjects more sensible of the immense advantag es accruing to them under the mildness and the equity of our rule."4
Elliot's motives for delegitimising the Indo-Muslim rulers who had preceded English rule are thus quite clear. Writing in 1931 on the pernicious influence that the colonial understanding of pre-modern Indian history had on subsequent generations, Mohamma d Habib remarked: "The peaceful Indian Mussalman, descended beyond doubt from Hindu ancestors, was dressed up in the garb of a foreign barbarian, as a breaker of temples, and an eater of beef, and declared to be a military colonist in the land where he h ad lived for about thirty or forty centuries.... The result of it is seen in the communalistic atmosphere of India today." [3]
It does not take a superman brain to understand the sources of Elliot and Dowson are nothing more than propaganda.
2) You are quoting "Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi" written by Ziauddin Barani in 1357 as reference to Khilji Dynasty which ended in 1320. The work is itself non-contemporary, full of sourceless and sketchy descriptions and nothing more than a "primary source". It was written to gain royal patronage which means that it was a subject of distortion to please the ruler like any such writings.
3) Sources clearly says as Kautilya3 wrote "The preceding paragraphs in the book explain that he was controlling the Hindu landlords. Your edit makes a feudal act appear as a religious persecution."
So, both your sources are not only unreliable but you are misinterpreting or cherry picking them . Thank you. Ghatus ( talk) 09:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Kautilya3:: There is no wiki policy on "you should not take this long", share a wikipedia policy page link if there is one. Please no forum like discussion on this talk page or threats; see WP:TPG for why. Let us collaborate to improve this article. In your reply and that of @Ghatus, there is one good point, but neither of you have addressed the following issues:
I invite you to add relevant content with WP:RS cites that provide alternate, non-fringe, major and minor views on anything I add. I will try to do the same for WP:NPOV. Beren Dersi ( talk) 13:03, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I think this discussion is too narrowly focused on individual sentences, sources, and editor's conduct (and past statements). Lets try to reset it, and see how to best deal with the subject on the whole and explain it to the reader. Will post some procedural suggestions below in a short while. Am hoping that other editors on the page who have read more on the topic than me at this point, will help implement it. Abecedare ( talk) 17:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
This article is in an amazingly bad shape (which unfortunately is not uncommon in India history articles), with no logical order in the choice, titles, or organzaization of the sections, or content within them. But since that is too big a topic to handle immediately, lets focus on the
Economic policy and administration under Khilji dynasty section, some sentences of which are being discussed above. As
of present this section is a seemingly random collection of sentences and idea, with no logical ordering and a mix of good and and bad sources. Lets remedy that!
Here are my procedural suggestions, which as I said above, I am hoping other editors on the page (who are likely more knowledgeable about the subject than I) will help implement:
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |chapterurl=
(
help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl=
ignored (|chapter-url=
suggested) (
help)I have removed the generic section on Khilji people, as it was offtopic, unrelated and undue to Khilji dynasty. It was tagged quite a while ago. The section may better belong in Turkestan or Ghilji or a new article. Beren Dersi ( talk) 22:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I did not understand what is the main name of this ethnicity. Which ones Ghilji, Ghilzai , Ghalzai, Gharzai, Khaljī , Khiljī. -- Shxahxh ( talk) 14:14, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Beren Dersi:, @ Kautilya3:, @ Abecedare:
There is no confusion over the edits done. Earlier version was misleading.
Market Regulation: Market regulation or price control was one of the achievements of Ala-ud-din. For this reason, he made crack down on "Hindu" middlemen and also confiscated Muslim aristocrats' property. But, the reference to the confiscation of Muslim property was omitted in the earlier version. Not only that, the world "middleman" was also omitted from the phrase "Hindu middleman" and it gave the whole para an impression of the religious prosecution of "Hindus". But, reality was different. Muslim population centred around cities and hence the agricultural market was under the total control of "Hindu middlemen".
Massacres: Khiljis massacred their enemies. In conquering areas they massacred "Hindus". They also massacred Muslims( biggest massacre is Ala-ud-din's order to kill 30000 new Muslims in a day). Howevre, in the earlier version the reference to Muslims was ommitted and again made it as a case of religious prosecution of "Hindus".
HINDU: Timur in 1398 used the term "Hindu" in order to mean Indians(both Hindu and Muslims). So, in what sense Khiljis(1290-1320) used the term "Hindu"? The Khiljis called themselves "Turks". Since you are quoting from primary sources, one has to be highly careful.
Sources: "Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi" is a primary, non contemporary source. Elliot and Dowson's work is nothing but a collection of translations with their "scholarship" and "intentions" being in question. Ghatus ( talk) 12:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone have a source for this map? According to KS Lal's History of the Khaljis (p. 220-221): "On the north-west, river Indus may roughly be taken as the boundary line of the Indian empire. Beyond the Indus the land was constantly disputed between the Mongols and the Indians. [...] On the east .Turkish empire does not seem to have extended beyond Benares and Jaunpur (Sarju). Bihar and Bengal were ruled by Harasimka and Shamsuddin Firoz respectively, both independent of the Sultanate of Delhi."
While Bengal did form a part of the Delhi Sultanate under the Mamluks, this doesn't seem to be true for the Khiljis. utcursch | talk 18:40, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved — Amakuru ( talk) 22:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
Khilji dynasty →
Khalji dynasty – The majority of the scholarly sources on this topic prefer "Khalji" to "Khilji". This includes older sources such as
History of the Khaljis, as well as more recent publications, such as
Peter Jackson's The Delhi Sultanate (2003) and
Satish Chandra's Medieval India (2004). Encyclopædia Britannica also calls it
Khalji dynasty, as do India's
NCERT
[9] and Pakistan's Ministry of Education
[10] (page 10).
Google Books search results:
Therefore, I propose that this article be moved to "Khalji dynasty". The related articles (e.g. the names of the dynasty's rulers) should also be moved accordingly. utcursch | talk 19:50, 13 September 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa ( talk) 20:58, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
References
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Change "Madura" to "Madurai"
Note: It is wrongly given as "Madura" in Tamilnadu. The city name in Tamilnadu is "Madurai". Also the hyperlink wrongly leads to an Indonesian city. K.ratan ( talk) 03:09, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Khaljis "POV and fringe". First of, please explain what this actually means. I only added one line from a book and quoted it and yet is somehow counts as expressing my point of view.The book clearly states: "At the same time Jalaludin, who was Ariz-i-Mamalik , had gone to Baharpur , attended by a body of his relations and friends. Here he held a muster and inspection of the forces. He came of a race different from that of the Turks ; so he had no confidence in them , nor would the Turks own him as belonging to the member of his friends" Mr.Elliott's History of India (Vol.III page 34)" Hayras123 ( talk) 00:54, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation"
Ignoring the fact that the Ghilzai tribe of Afghans are descendants of Khaljis, [1] there are many other reputable, non-biased sources that clearly state that Khaljis were not of Turk origin. In fact, it is clearly stated that they are of Afghan origin [2] [3] Hayras123 ( talk) 22:11, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
References
So just because Niazi and Habibi are Pashtuns, disqualifies them for giving their assertion on the topic? That's not very noble of you but shows you are biased. For your information Habibi was a historian himself and much of his work is deemed reliable in the western world. Also, the sources from Minhaj and Nasiri deny that they had any Turkic roots and so do most of the sources in the article. You're basically POV pushing. Akmal94 ( talk) 20:42, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
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The article is completely biased and uses words such as "The dynasty is known for its faithlessness" etc. This is against the Wiki spirit and culture AFAIK and I'd like to see it neutralized to present a broader picture instead of telling the story from POV of the enemies of Khilji Empire. 110.36.227.66 ( talk) 10:00, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
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"The change is Khiljis are not turkic," Major RTI ridgeway in his book "Pathans" has called khiljis as Ghilzai Nation. The Khalj and Afghans have always been mentioned together and indispensably their place or origin and race was common. Abu Nasr Mohammad, son of Abdul Jabbar Utbi (1023 A.D.), in the conquests of Subuktagin writes as follows: "the Afghans and Khalj obeyed Subuktagin and reluctantly joined his forces." [1]Ibn-ul-Athir has also mentioned this event in the same manner. [2] [1] Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.
Minorsky clearly writes that these Khaljies are the ancestors of the present Afghan Ghalji. Barthold and Haig have written the same in the Islamic Encyclopedia.[1] It can therefore be said that Khalji or Ghalji were related to the Hepthalites and Zabul rulers, since the Helthalites, (Hayatila of Arabs) ruled over Zabulistan. Their features struck on coins resemble the features of the Ghalji youth who live in this area and have high noses, almond eyes, bushy hair, and strong features. [1] Minorsky’s comments on Hudud-al-Alam, 348 FawadAliKhan11 ( talk) 09:24, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
"A Comprehensive History of Medieval India" by Salma Ahmed Farooqui Pg 67, (is on Pearson, www.pearsoned.co.in/salmaahmedfarooqui), The origin of the Khiljis lack clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to the Turkish stock while others attribute their origins to the Afghans. Zia Barani, the Indian historian (1357 A.D.) in his book Tarikh-e-Ferozshahi, has a special chapter where he says the king must be among the Turks but when Malik Jalaluddin Khalji ascended the Delhi throne he says: “the people found it difficult to tolerate a Khalji king.”[4] Since Khaljies were not Turks Indian historians also considered them to be Afghans.[5]
e. In Afghan literature the Khalji of India have been referred to as being Afghan Ghalji. Khushal Khan Khattak, the famous Pashto poet (died 1688 A.D.) in a long elegy enumerates the Afghan kings and considers Sultan Jalaluddin Khalji (1290-1295 A.D.) to be a Ghalji of Wilayat (Afghanistan). “Then Sultan Jalaluddin ascended the Delhi throne who was a Ghalji from Wilayat.”[6] f. Until the time of Babur, the founder of the Indian Mughal dynasty the Ghalji of present Ghazna have been mentioned as Afghan Khalji and not as Turks. Babur says: “In 1507 A.D. we had ridden out of Kabul with the intention of over-running the country of Afghan Khaljies, northeast of Ghazni and brought back with us one hundred thousand head of sheep and other things.”[11]
[4] Zia Barani’s Tarikh-e Ferozshahi, 173. Calcutta. [5] Tazkira-e Bahaduran-e Islam, 2/331. [6] Divan of Khushal Khan 669, Kandahar. [11] Tuzuk-e Babur 127, Bombay.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.123.59.224 ( talk) 17:30, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes the terms Afghan and Pashtun are not synonyms, however Pashtuns today are divided in three major groups, Afghans, Pashtun proper and Ghilzai (of turkish extract), The sources I quoted are as authoritative and reliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 03:58, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
"Pathans" by Major RTI Ridgway, In this book Genealogical Tree of the Pathan Nation attached at end of book shows Afghans, Pasthun proper and Ghilzai/Khilji, All Tribes under each group and origins are mentioned. for example Durrani mentioned under Afghan, Afridi under Pashtun proper, Lodhis under Ghilzai/Khilji
Another book "Afghan despotism in India" by Iqtadar Hussain Siddiqui, can't find it at home to mention page number( but will update page number) quotes Khiljis, Lodhis and Surs as Ghilzai.
Jawaharlal Nehru "The Discovery of India" Pg 238 "The Afghans differed also from the more highly cultured and sophisticated Arabs and Persians.. One of their great rulers, Alauddin Khilji, himself married a Hindu lady and so did his son, Some of the rulers were racially Turks such as Qutbud-Din Aibak, the Sultana Razia and Iltutmish, but the nobility and army continued to be mainly Afghans." Nehru hence makes a distinction between Afghans and Turks and considered Khilji to be Afghan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 10:06, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
I have quoted something all afghans and pashtoons and ghilzais know the three have different roots. Major Ridgeway's book was the main source for recruiting Afghans, pashtuns and ghilzais when the british ruled India. Khiljis they are "ethnic Afghans" along with "ethnic turkic", or vice versa. That is exactly what the Afghans or pashtuns consider ghilzais to be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.123.63.32 ( talk) 21:36, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
To utcursh. I think you should wipe out the "wrongly" here, as everybody disagrees. Because it doesnt make sence. only considered will fix the problem. And secondly you should mention it a turko afghan origin, and adding the khalji location (from where the name is derived) will help more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E432:23EF:29A1:4913 ( talk) 12:11, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
firstly about bakhtyar, you are simply imposing your version of history on others. secondly 90 percent of the sources doesnt say wrongly. It is wiki not some ones personal home. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E432:23EF:29A1:4913 ( talk) 12:21, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The khalj are different from Turks in the below sources, (we'll leave who is afghan, pashtun or ghilzai for another discussion) Am quoting Minhaj Siraj, He says that the Khaljies live near Ghazni, Garmseer and Ghor, but has not said anything about these people being Turks. On the other hand, he clearly refers to other rulers of Turkish descent as Turks. Khalj, which has been altered to Khalakh by calligraphers, was a well-known word among geographers long before the compilation of Hudud-ul-Alam. Ibne Khurdadbeh (844-848 A.D.) also speaks about Khaljiya. He confirms that there is a difference between Khalj and says: “the winter dwelling of Turks of Kharlukh (Kharlikh) is near Taraz and nearby them lie the pastures of Khalj (Khaljiya).[2] [2] Al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik, 28.
The Khalj and Afghans have always been mentioned together and indispensably their place or origin and race was common. Abu Nasr Mohammad, son of Abdul Jabbar Utbi (1023 A.D.), in the conquests of Subuktagin writes as follows: "the Afghans and Khalj obeyed Subuktagin and reluctantly joined his forces."[1]
Ibn-ul-Athir has also mentioned this event in the same manner. [2] [1] Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.
Mahmud Kashghari (1074 A.D.), who was of Turkish descent and a Turkologist says: The ghuz of Turkmans comprise 24 tribes, but two Khaljiya tribes resemble the Turks are not considered Turks.[1] This Turkish historian who has studied the Turks and even note their tribes, refrains from adding the name of Khalj with the Turks.[2]
[1] Divan Lughat-ul-Turk 3/307, Istanbul, 1915. [2] Divant Lughat-ul-Turk, photographic publication p. 4-41.
Fakhruddin Mubarak Shah, well known as Fakhr-e Mudabir and author of Adab-al-Harb and other famous books, writing on the History of India (1205 A.D.) says that the armies of Sultan Qutb-ud-Din comprised of Turks, Ghori, Khorasani, Khalji and Indian soldiers.[10] [10] Introduction to the History of Mubarak Shah, 33. London, 1927.
A manuscript on the miracles of Sultan Sakhi Sarwar[7] (known as Lakhdata died 1181 A.D. and buried in Shah Kot of Dera Ghazi Khan) is written in Persian whose author is unknown. In this book the author relates a story from Tarikh-e Ghazna by Abu Hamid-al-Zawali and quotes Hasan Saghani.[8] “Kabul Shah, Khingil, who according to Yaqubi lived about 779 A.D.[9] sent a poem in the Khaljiya language to the Loyak of Ghazni.” Analysis of this poem shows that it is ancient Pashto which is said to have been the language of Khaljiya. This means that the Khalji spoke Pashto, [7] For the biography of this saint refer to Khazinat-ul-Asfiya 2/248 and Ab-e Kawtbar by Shaikh Ikram p. 91 onwards. [8] Born in Lahore 1181, died 1252 A.D. [9] Tarikh-al-Yaqubi 2/131.
Minhaj Siraj’s statement is worth consideration in which he says: “Sultan Jalaluddin Khwarazm Shah and Malik Khan of Heart reached Ghaznayn and a large army of Turks, and rulers of Ghor, Tajik, Khalji and Ghori gathered at their service.”[10] Here Minhaj Siraj mentions the Turks and Khalj as two separate entities. Juwaini, in Tarikh-e Jahankusha also speaks about the presence of Khalji in the battle of Parwan and the defeat of the Genghis army.[11] [10] Tabaqat-e Nasiri 2/259. [11] Jahan Kusha of Juwayni 2/194. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 18:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Just because Abdul Hai is afghan doesn't mean it is biased, rather answer his points raised by your sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 18:49, 23 March 2018 (UTC) The Khilji Dynasty - Padma Mohan Kumar, freelance writer email: padma413@gmail.com
The Khiljis were the second dynasty to rule over Delhi. The fall of the Slave dynasty, which was the first ruling line of kings, was followed by the accession of Jalal ud din Firuz Khilji, the founder of the Khilji dynasty, to the throne of Delhi in 1290. Historical scholars describe this change as the Khilji revolution because it marked the end of Turkish domination. The Khiljis were Turko-Afghan in origin and the family owed its name ‘Khilji’ to an Afghan village or town known as ‘Qalat-e-Khilji’ or Fort of Khilji. They had originally settled in Afghanistan but later on they had made Delhi their home. Her sources: A Comprehensive History of India: Comprehensive history of medieval India By B.N. Puri, M.N. Das — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 18:56, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
My request now "Khiljis are of Turkic origin and ethnic Afghans", Wikipedia says they are ethnic Turks and wrongly considered ethnic Afghans which is not the same as my request or "Turko-Afghan",
on Abdul Hai, we are debating his primary sources not what he has to say, (scroll up and see Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.),
not to mention BN Puri and Salma Ahmed Siddiqui who I have quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 08:00, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
My change I want is "Khiljis were turkish origin and ethnic Afghans" or "Khiljis were Turko Afghans origin"
Your reading the sources that disputes these scholars, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui Pg 67, A comprehensive History of Medieval India "The origin of the Khiljis lacks clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to Turkish stock while others attribute their origin to the Afghans. The older nobility did not recognize the Turkish origin of the Khiljis. Considering them to be low born Afghan, they even desisted from helping to them come to power. " This contradicts both your sources, she hasn't given an origin to the khiljis, your sources call them ethnic Turkish, and, she didn't use word wrongly considered Afghans.
Wiki is disregarding these sources and calling them only ethnic Turkish and wrongly considered Afghans.
On page 68, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui " By the end of his rule Jalaluddin had sowed the seeds for two major changes that mitigated the harsher aspects of Balban's rule. The first being the Afghan descent of the Khiljis, which was used to harness the support of the Afghan nobles; and the second was giving higher offices to Indian Muslims who had so far been ignored by Balban because of his belief that right to govern was vested with Turks alone."
The change "Khiljis are Turko Afghan in origin", is also acceptable by me.
The Khilji Dynasty
- Padma Mohan Kumar, freelance writer email: padma413@gmail.com
The Khiljis were the second dynasty to rule over Delhi. The fall of the Slave dynasty, which was the first ruling line of kings, was followed by the accession of Jalal ud din Firuz Khilji, the founder of the Khilji dynasty, to the throne of Delhi in 1290. Historical scholars describe this change as the Khilji revolution because it marked the end of Turkish domination. The Khiljis were Turko-Afghan in origin and the family owed its name ‘Khilji’ to an Afghan village or town known as ‘Qalat-e-Khilji’ or Fort of Khilji. They had originally settled in Afghanistan but later on they had made Delhi their home. Her sources: A Comprehensive History of India: Comprehensive history of medieval India By B.N. Puri, M.N. Das BN Puri and M.N. Das, — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 16:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
No the article says they are ethnic Turks, not Turkic origin, the article never says from Afghanistan, and no I am not repeating, your not able to answer why you've said they are wrongly considered Afghans, You also need to dispute the primary sources I have quoted and BN Puri and Salma Ahmad, Turko Afghan means they are from Afghanistan, considered Afghan not ethnic Turkish only turkic origin. You havn't replied why your sources are correct and these are wrong. Wikipedia should have said they are Turkic origin, and distinct from the turks, and were from Afghanistan, (not wrongly considered Afghan), the above sources should suffice this talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 20:07, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
"Afghan Despotism in India" by Iqtidar Husain Siddiqui The Preface says he is Head of History Department, Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh, August 4, 1969. Pg v "The statement of the contemporary writers indicates that it included the Turks, Ghorids, Khurasanis, Khaljis, and the Indians" In footnote Fakhr Muddabir p33, Pg vi Introduction, "The strenghth of the Khaljis whom the Turks considered inferior to them, had considerably increased. The non turks nobles also aligned with them against the Turks who wanted to oust them from the nobility and monopolise key posts and territories. As a result the Turkish rule was overthrown and throne passed on to Khiljis." Salma Ahmed Siddiqui Pg 67, A comprehensive History of Medieval India "The origin of the Khiljis lacks clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to Turkish stock while others attribute their origin to the Afghans. The older nobility did not recognize the Turkish origin of the Khiljis. Considering them to be low born Afghan, they even desisted from helping to them come to power. " On page 68, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui " By the end of his rule Jalaluddin had sowed the seeds for two major changes that mitigated the harsher aspects of Balban's rule. The first being the Afghan descent of the Khiljis, which was used to harness the support of the Afghan nobles; and the second was giving higher offices to Indian Muslims who had so far been ignored by Balban because of his belief that right to govern was vested with Turks alone." she refers "afghan descent" of the khiljis in above paragraph, You've already made changes to this article I just saw. abraham early is right to say had intermarried with local afghans, but term "wrongly" considered Afghans still there.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 ( talk • contribs) 09:36, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
The sources that you mentioned above B.N. puri and Salama Ahmed Farooqi explicitly mentions that they were/considered Afghan. And both are very reliable sources as their main work is on medieval india "delhi sultanate" B.N.puri https://books.google.no/books?id=Y7fUHMEDAyEC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=B.+N.+Puri+khilji%27&source=bl&ots=xsioDN67S3&sig=HdBfCBTnt9mExqwdx7ps1tWyC94&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyxIyTiLjaAhXEkSwKHaM3CyMQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=B.%20N.%20Puri%20khilji'&f=false
and Salma farooqi. https://books.google.no/books?id=sxhAtCflwOMC&pg=PA65&hl=no&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
".Here is another two very important and nuetral sources. In al- hind it clearly mentions that khalaj were distint from turks and later "before dynesty" emerged as ghilzai afghans. https://books.google.no/books?id=uQ7k2vQlYxEC&pg=PA116&dq=ghaznavid+afghans+khalaj&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBlqu6irjaAhXGKywKHeMuDCAQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=ghaznavid%20afghans%20khalaj&f=false And here another main source which is explicitly focused "again" on delhi sultanate. (The Delhi Sultanate: A Political and Military History), clearly mentions that khiljis assimilated to neighbering afghans while still confined in suleiman mountains. https://books.google.no/books?id=lt2tqOpVRKgC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=ghurid+afghans&source=bl&ots=O4hR2nTKs0&sig=jGAD28j0iq3G83FVTELZwep_gbM&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPt9L5wKvaAhXHO5oKHZGmDWwQ6AEIWjAL#v=onepage&q=ghurid%20afghans&f=false. To the editers- I think the main problem is the tone of the article (not of specific author). For ex- the term 'wrongly" even contradict the article itslef, which clearly mentions that they were considered afghans. And also emphasizing on how one particuler auther is wrong while tones of other reliable sources are at hand. Hope constructive changes are made so we can all agree on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.90.199.161 ( talk) 20:57, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Please do not make
Khalaj or Khalaji (
Ghalzai) They were Turkic not Ghalzai
لطفا قبیلهٔ غَلزایی را خَلَج و یا خَلَجی نسازید
--
Shxahxh (
talk) 16:03, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
To Utcursch. You said no description of origins in opening. It should be only in origin section, so remove the khalaj people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:D5B8:F201:6FDA:73B9 ( talk) 17:29, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
But (Khalaji) should not be deleted. Brother -- Shxahxh ( talk) 12:47, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
To Utcursch. As you stated about sources, here is i think "The most important source" we simply cannot look over it. It is #Tarikh Yamini" which is written way before khalji dynesty. In that khiljis are (EXPLICITLY) considered Afghan. Now i dont request taking of tarko afghan to afghan. All i am saying is the article needs to be a little less biased, like deleting (wrongly) etc. Thank you. https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E411:A483:8D3E:92F6 ( talk) 18:21, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Here in page number 336 the author completely differentiates between khiljis and turks.
https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog/page/n375 and in the following page (467) he mentions the same geography of khiljis but call them afghan. https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog/page/n505
And here i have got an important scholarly source which is in persian (iran).
http://setarehi.blogfa.com/post/9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:20:CE72:B25C:1CD2 ( talk) 18:38, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
All the sources point out to one evidence, which is they were considered Afghan during dynesty period. Here is another scholarly source with the same outcome. https://8am.af/x8am/1396/12/02/afghan-word-and-reflection-on-afghan-identity-events-part-i/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:5D6C:63C8:FCBD:8BAB ( talk) 22:08, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
The article CLEARLY is one sided. Internationally among scholars khaljis are considered turko afghan. And all sources point out to that. Calling it "only" turkic, while removing Afghan is clearly opinion based. Hope you reconsider your position.
@ User:W28394 Clearly nearly all the sources mention them as Turks who had migrated to Afghanistan and adopted some customs of Local Pashtuns. This is for some users who want to make them Pashtun when they are Turkic. Pashtunization involves change of Language but there is no such evidence of Pashto Speaking Khalaj. They Spoke Persian and Khalaj Turkic language.
Statements from the references used within the article:
Kami2018 ( talk) 05:40, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
That is why they are called TURK O AFGHAN. So why it is changed to only turkic in the opening? As mentioned before and every body agrees they might be a turkic tribe that totally adopted afghan culture and transformed in to pashtun ghilzai tribe. Infact i have (last year) wrote the source from a book dating back to ghaznavid times where they are mentioned. It is in talk section. So change it to turko afghan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:D4E4:84A0:2250:C80C ( talk) 09:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi, i am still waiting for changes and your answer (others are also welcome to join in). It is over 3 years that i am involved in this article , so yes i have done my home work (full research). I think we should all agree again to restore the article to its previous version (which you have also edited) but with some minor changes. Agree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:9803:93DA:7688:1C45 ( talk) 21:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Kami2018 It is clearly you who is POV pushing and forcing a Turkic origin on this empire when other historians and writers (Minhaj, Habib, Habibi, Barani etc) have all favoured an Afghan origin. You're also ignoring how other Turks opposed the rise of Alauddin Khiji on the Delhi throne because he was not Turkic. And there is no such thing as "Pashtunizaiton" the Pashtuns are a tribal people and don't assimilate non-Pashtuns into their community. We have Uzbeks, Tajiks and other non-Afghans living in Pashtun areas yet are not Pashtunized yet somehow you think the Khiljis were. Akmal94 ( talk) 09:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
HI AGAIN!
You are still not writing it to its original version. After all researched and said that is the ONLY way. If not than me and others have to turn to other contributors. Hope you will take notice this time and do the right (moral) thing. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:799:5E0:6000:E166:1231:E0BD:2CBC ( talk) 10:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
There is no doubt about the origin of the Khaljis as a Turkic group. However, this article is about the Khalji DYNASTY of DELHI SULTANATE and NOT Khaljis as a whole. So lets get that clear first. Secondly, there is also NO DOUBT that Khaljis over centuries became Pashtunized and today, they are known purely as Pashtuns.
Having established two undisputed facts, lets move on to the dispute at hand. The question here is, were the Khaljis Pashtunized enough by the time Jalaluddin Khalji took the throne? Or were the Khaljis of Delhi Sultanate purely Turkic, like you imply, when they took the throne? The simple answer is NO. There is no doubt over the lineage of proper turkic dynasties like the Mamluks who were the rulers of the Delhi Sultante prior to the Khaljis. The Mamluk turks the Khaljis served and ruled later on also did not consider them turks. Why? Because they were Pashtunized by the time and were more Pashtun than their ancestors, who were more Turkic. The historians you quote rightly mention the Khaljis being of Turkic stock. However, they are also referring to the ANCESTORS of the Khaljis of Delhi. Not Khaljis themselves. They very clearly mention the Khaljis having been Pashtunized to a great extent due to which they were not looked upon as Turkic by Turk proper. Therefore, calling the Khalhi Dynasty pure turk instead of Turkic-Pashtun is historically ignorant. Even Lodi Dynasty and Hotaki Dynasty was ruled by Khalji Pashtuns and are rightly called Afghan/Pashtun Dynasties because they had entirely Pashtunized by then. Would you change their history because their ancestors were Turkic?
Also, I do not know if you are genuinely ignorant about Khalji/Ghilji/Ghilzai Pashtuns being the largest Pashtun confederacy today or whether you chose to ignore that fact? The ancestors of Khalji/Ghilji/Ghilzai Pashtuns were of Turkic stock 1200 to a 1000 years ago but were Pashtunized and are entirely Pashtun today, not turkic. The same goes for Lodis and Hotaki dynasties (both called Afghan/Pashtun dynasties) and to a great extent, to the Khalji dynasty (who were Pashtunized enough to be rejected as Turks by the Turkic nobility). This is a non issue now. I will be keeping an eye on this article and all your edits will be reverted to the historically more accurate version.
W28394 ( talk) 16:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
Clearly all the sources mention them as Turkic settled in afghanistan. I have reported your edit to the admin and i think you should read the references and then perform constructive edits. Once again: Statements from the references used within the article:
Thankyou Kami2018 ( talk) 02:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
@
User:Kami2018 Once again, you are very arrogantly wrong.
1) You are confusing ethnicity with genetics/ancestry when ethnicity is much more than that. An ethnicity is the state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition. It is not limited to genetics or ancestry.
2) This article is about the Khalji dynasty of Delhi. NOT the Khalaj people who were the ancestors of the Khalji Dynasty.
3) Like I said in my explanation earlier, Khaljis without a doubt descended from a Turkic tribe BUT were adopted into the Pashtun/Afghan ethnicity about a thousand years ago. BEFORE the Khalji Dynasty took the throne in Delhi. You ASSUME that due to Khaljis being descendants of the Khalaj people, they remained Turkic forever. Which is extremely ignorant given the fact that;
4) Pashtuns are NOT a homologous group of people. Pashtuns have historically descended from different groups of people. From the hephthalites to the khaljis. Today, the Khaljis/Ghilzais are the largest tribal confederacy among the Pashtun ethnicity and are nowhere to be found among the Turkic people. Some popular Khaljis today are/were Ashraf Ghani (President of Afghanitsan) and Mullah Omar (Ex Taliban Chief), they are referred to as Pashtuns, not Turks.
5) The main question here is whether the Khaljis of the DELHI SULTANATE were Pashtunized by the time they ascended the throne and the obvious answer is YES.
6) Like the sources state, "They were looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners". 'Wrongly' does not matter in this context as we have already established the above points about the identity of the Khalaj people, who were the ancestors of the Khalji Dynasty, and the identity of the Khalji Dynasty itself.
7) Other sources reestablish the FACT that the Khalji Dynasty of Delhi were more Afghan/Pashtun than their ancestors, the Khalaj, and that they had adopted the Afghan/Pashtun ethnicity. "The Khaljis had over the centuries adopted Afghan customs and practices, intermarried with the local people, and were therefore looked down on as non-Turks by pure-bred Turks" and "The Khaljis were a Turkic tribe but having been long domiciled in Afghanistan, had adopted some Afghan habits and customs. They were treated as Afghans in Delhi Court. They were regarded as barbarians"
8) Going by all the above statements, you will have to completely lack comprehension skills to NOT see that the Khalji Dynasty was NOT a Turkic dynasty but a Pashtun/Afghan dynasty of Turkic descent. If you have any doubt, refer to point 1 again. Thanks.
Also, going by your talk-page, you are involved in various instances of vandalism and enforcing your opinion on other articles as well for which you have been warned numerous times. So kindly spare me the "warning".
W28394 (
talk) 10:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
You should change Pashtun to Afghan (ethnonym) or Afghan as that’s the historic name for Pashtuns and what every source is referring to when talking about a connection towards Pashtuns , they use the word Afghan not Pashtun Xerxes931 ( talk) 14:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
The Khalji or Khilji [a] dynasty was a Muslim dynasty which ruled large parts of the Indian subcontinent between 1290 and 1320. [1] [2] [3] It was founded by Jalal ud din Firuz Khalji and became the second dynasty to rule the Delhi Sultanate of India. The dynasty is known for their faithlessness and ferocity, conquests into the Hindu south, [1] and for successfully fending off the repeated Mongol invasions of India. [4] [5]
YES
User:Xerxes1985 The sentence you removed does not contradict the rest of the article. See the section under the rise of Alauddin section in the article: "He would appoint his Indo-Muslim allies such as Zafar Khan(Minister of War), Nusrat Khan (Wazir of Dehli), Ayn al Mulk Multani, Malik Karfur who were famous warriors but non-Turks, which resulted in the emergence of an Indo-Muslim state." "... Ayn al-Mulk Multani was sent to conquer the Paramara kingdom of Malwa.. Then Nusrat Khan was sent to conquer Gujarat itself, where he defeated its Solanki king.[39]...It was here where Nusrat Khan captured Malik Kafur who would later become a military general.[40] Alauddin continued expanding Delhi Sultanate into South India, with the help of generals such as Malik Kafur and Khusraw Khan, collecting large war booty (Anwatan) from those they defeated"
Satish chandra on Zafar Khan, Nusrat khan and Malik Kafur
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Medieval_India_From_Sultanat_to_the_Mugh/L5eFzeyjBTQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=satish%20chandra%20zafar%20khan%20malik%20indian%20muslims&pg=PA269&printsec=frontcover&bsq=satish%20chandra%20zafar%20khan%20malik%20indian%20muslims
"Nusrat khan who was kotwal of delhi in the first reign was an Indian muslim
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44145331?seq=1
When the war minister and wazir were indian muslims according to satish chandra, (Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals-Delhi Sultanat (1206-1526_) and all the conquerors mentioned were indian muslims, it should not be a shock to talk about the rise of indian muslims in the nobility. The purpose of the statement is to talk about the composition of nobility, not the ethnic origins of the dynasty, which is what the 'origins' section is about. the khaljis were an individual family, not a nobility of its own. There is nothing contradicting between the khalji origin of the ruling family and the rise of a heterogenous indian muslim nobility which is what Mohammad Aziz Ahmad was describing in this source https://www.jstor.org/stable/44252438?seq=10#metadata_info_tab_contents Mydust ( talk)
Kansas Bear Firstly khalaj people still live in Iran and they speak turkic so they are not "initially" turkic. Secondly someone has vandalized the origin part, for example I don't see any source saying anything like that: "They were already treated entirely as Afghans by the Turkic nobles of the Delhi Sultanate during the reign of the Khalji Sultanate." [6] [7] The source says They were "wrongly" looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners. I wrote that part back with more accurate sentences, according to the sources.
This dynasty, like the previous Slave dynasty, was of Turkish origin, though the Khaljī tribe had long been settled in Afghanistan. Its three kings were noted for their faithlessness, their ferocity, and their penetration of the Hindu south.
Main points about khilji dynesty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.107.141.245 ( talk) 11:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
While the sources do seem to point toward such, there are numerous other sources that point to them being of just Turco-Afghan origin. Which is why I am fine with you putting the "Indianized" mention in its origins, where other sources point to them being "Indianized". It would not be appropriate to mention it in the lead (ie where it says they are turco-afghan), but rather in its origins section as another view upon it. @ Mydust
You could also try to reach consensus with some of the past editors of the page on whether you believe it should be included it in the lead.
For that matter, if there is a section for the Delhi Sultanate page itself for it, you can also add it there, but rather not in the lead unless a consensus is established as was done before. Noorullah ( talk) 02:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
I too disagree with using "Indianized" in the lead, because it seems to give precedence (and undue weight) to cultural influences, and the exchange of cultural traits with time, over the fundamental defining characteristics, ethnical and cultural, of the subject of the article. Otherwise, we could very well use the lead to present India as a "Turkified" country or "Mongolified" country, the Visigoths as a "Romanified" people, Japan as a "Westernized Asian" country, the USA as an "Anglified" nation, and Germany as an Americanized European country. "Indianized" also sounds like denialism and an attempt at cultural reappropriation, as if India was really the conqueror here, which is was not, even though the invader adopted cultural traits of the invaded country, which is a universal and rather unremarkable and automatical occurrence. We sometimes do use "Indianized" to refer to the states of South-east Asia (such as the Shailendra dynasty), which were indeed based in very large part on Indian cultural influx. Cultural influences, which are always mutiple and both ways, are best discussed in the body of the article, and such sweeping adjectives should only be used to the extent that reliable sources also use them, with the same prominence. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
I want to point out that Jaswant L Mehta is a not a reliable source, he’s not even a historian. Satish Chandra already gives a lengthy explanation as to why this is wrong, see talk page of “Mongol invasions of India”. I’d say that part of the origins section should be removed. Someguywhosbored ( talk) 17:29, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I see that in the original section they point to Alauddin Khalji sister being married to Indian. And one of the sources claim they were Indian I have noticed that this page has turned to a propaganda site. As well as when I provide facts with accurate citations which are all from Oxford, Cambridge University and Unesco it gets reverted for no reason. Afghan.Records ( talk) 21:49, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
I wanted to discuss this because it seems that the mentions of an “indo muslim” nobility/state still remains in this article, and it’s even in the lead. I personally believe it should be removed but I would also like the opinions of others on this. Satish Chandra had written about this view before where he extensively explains why it’s wrong, I’ll cite the full quote.
“It has been suggested that with the rise of the Khaljis, and the end of Turkish monopoly of high offices, an "integrated Indo-Muslim state" emerged in India, i.e., one in which different sections of the Muslims, including Indian Muslims, were admitted to the nobility, and high offices filled on the basis of efficiency and the pre-dilections of individual rulers, rather than on the basis of their ethnic origins. Sufficient research work has not been done to prove or effectively disprove the point. We do, however, know that the ruling classes and the rulers in India strongly believed in the principle of superiority of blood so that only those who could establish their links with 'respected' families, whether in the secular or the religious fields, were entitled to high offices in government. The earliest Muslim political thinker in India, Fakr-i-Mudabbir, who wrote during the reign of Iltutmish, says: "Posts of diwan, shagird and muharrir (revenue posts) should be given only to ahl-i-qalam (the educated sections) and whose ancestors had served rulers and amirs." Ziauddin Barani who wrote his political tract, Fatawa-i-Jahandari, while in prison during the early years of Firuz Tughlaq, echoes the same views. He says that at the time of creation, some minds were inspired with the art of letters and of writing, others with horsemanship, and yet others in the weaving, stich- craft, carpentry, hair-cutting and tanning. Thus, men should practice only those crafts and professions "for which men have been inspired (and) are practised by them". He goes on to say, "Even if a man of base or low birth is adorned with a hundred merits, he will not be able to organise and administer the country according to expectations, or be worthy of leadership or political trust." Barani was, apparently, voicing the prejudices of the ruling sections. But these views had a definite bearing on the character of the state. The state remained the exclusive preserve of the so-called "respectable" classes. The only ruler who tried to breach this policy was Muhammad bin Tughlaq who appointed a number of persons, both Hindus and Muslims, from the so-called low classes on the basis of their efficiency. But there was a strong reaction against this from the established ruling classes. Under Firuz Tughlaq, we find no reference to the appointment of such people, either Hindus or Muslims. Thus, in a highly fragmented society it is hardly possible to speak of an "integrated" Indo-Muslim state. The position of converted India Muslims from the lower classes hardly changed. The rise of a converted Tailang Brahman, Khan-i-Jahan Maqbul, to the position of wazir under Firuz Tughlaq, or of an Ain-ul- Mulk, a Hindustani, who was governor of Awadh under Muhammad Tughlaq and later was Firuz's mushrif-i-mamlik (auditor-general), should not be interpreted to mean that Indian converts from the upper castes had now become a dominant element in the nobility. Muhammad Tughlaq's induction of a large number of foreigners in the nobility, calling them 'aizza' is an index to the continued preference of foreigners over Indians. It was one of these nobles who later set up the Bahmani kingdom in the Deccan, and another in Gujarat.” pg 268. Here’s the source. https://knowledgevalley2017.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Satish-Chandra.pdf
he’s a far more authoritative source than any of the other citations listed under “indo muslim nobility”, and he cites primary sources as well. It is for all these reasons, that I decided to remove this part of the article.
@ Noorullah21 @ पाटलिपुत्र Someguywhosbored ( talk) 03:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
How come they be of Turkic origin when the origin of Hephthalites is Indo-European and scholars believe they were a tribal confederation of Iranian peoples? Afghan.Records ( talk) 23:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Doerfer who studies Khalaj and is an expert on them criticizes Minrosky suggests his content are sketchy and he was not an expert on khalaj refuting his words on Khalaj.So is what Minrosky says valuable to put here? Afghan.Records ( talk) 05:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Kasghari also said the Khalaj and Arghu are Turkified Sogdians should it be added? Ref —> Cambridge Language Surveys
Turkic
Lars Johanson Afghan.Records ( talk) 01:26, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
This
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Publisher and ISBN are switched in this citation:
{{cite book |author1=Ram Shankar Tripathi |author1-link=Ram Shankar Tripathi |title=History of Kanauj To the Moslem Conquest |date=1989 |publisher=9788120804784 |isbn=Motilal Banarsidass |page=327 |url=https://www.google.co.id/books/edition/History_of_Kanauj/U8GPENMw_psC?hl= |access-date=14 April 2024 |language=En}}
. 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 22:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
This
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Hello, I am an historian with focus on Indo-Iranian studies I mastered at Afghanistan and its ethnic groups history. I believe I can add some context to this page.It seems like its not well updated. Zhun.Rokko ( talk) 00:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
DNA don’t lie and show them to be close relatives to Durrani Pashtuns who belong to R1a. Also, primary sources mention them as Afghan.
208.98.222.64 (
talk) 19:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
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