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Strange, I have never, ever heard of this being called anything other than Carlsbad. Ameise -- chat 05:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
As Wikipedia does with all the historically German areas stolen from Germany and Austria at the end of World War II, in which at least 15 million Germans were expelled from lands they had lived on since the Middle Ages, it does everything it can to hide the fact these were German lands. That also goes for Memel, Konigsberg, Danzig, Stettin, and the entire Baltic Coast of what became Poland in 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:7D0:888E:3900:15CF:E66C:C437:63A2 ( talk) 20:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was
no consensus, not moved.
Teke (
talk) 05:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Whoops, I meant to write "no consensus to move." Teke ( talk) 21:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Karlovy Vary → Carlsbad — There are already talk entries supporting this. There was even a sentence in the article that claimed that other places like the Carlsbad caverns in the US take their name from Karlovy Vary (sic!), which stretched political correctness obviously quite far. Similar case as Prague, not Praha (and IMHO Cracow, not Kraków) Matthead discuß! O 23:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Strong Oppose: I am an American who has been living in the Czech Republic for the last year. Everyone calls it Karlovy Vary- Americans, Czechs and other Europeans. The Germans call it Karlsbad-- that is why some places have been named after it like that. There is no question that this city is called "Karlovy Vary." Nobody here calls it Karlsbad ever.
Not so fast please. This looks like the infamous Gdansk/Danzig case: however, modern Czech name Karlovy Vary is a) official and more correct b) even more prominent in English today as the old German rendering Carlsbad:
need more? Duja ► 13:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
If you want a -real- English name, let's call it Carl's Bath. Ameise -- chat 03:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Some of the above discussion seems rather incivil, and I hope the participants can calm down and assume good faith with each other. Personal attacks will not help the situation, but will only heighten tensions and make things worse. Olessi 04:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Actions against consensus are very unwikipedian [1]. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 12:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Huh, this one is good [2]. He will push his POV and german equivalents all over the wikipedia. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 14:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
27x Karlovy Vary (or alternative spelling) and 3x Karlsbad (Turkish, Deutsh, Nederland) which we can count with. There is no doubt about number of use. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 22:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[3] German Karlsbad, also spelled Carlsbad, spa city, Západoceský kraj (region), western Czech Republic. The city lies along the Teplá River where it flows into the valley of the Ohre River, 70 miles (113 km) west of Prague. The surrounding highland areas were once subject to volcanic activity, which accounts for the thermal springs in the vicinity. Of more than a dozen active warm springs, the best-known and hottest, Vrídlo
Greetings to all, although I'm not an editor on Wikipedia I couldn't miss the heated debate around the nomenclature for this article. I'm not an expert on the subject but I'd like to share my point of view.
When I travelled to Karlovy Vary, indeed population there knew it as Karlovy Vary, our tourist guide (from Spain) named it Karlovy Vary and the first time I knew of Karlovy Vary (I'm native Spanish speaker) was as Karlovy Vary. Without doubt this is its official name.
However, the naming conventions sate "Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
This is justified by the following principle:
Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists"
Attaching to this, and although the CORRECT and OFFICIAL name and with which I personally agree more, the correct wikipedian nomenclature (in case all or most English-speakers know it as so) should be "Carlsbad".
So here we should make a comparison between official and "more commonly known in English" names.
Here has been stated that "Carlsbad" is not only the name by which ost English speakers know Karlovy Vary, but accurately, it is closer to what it would mean in English both phonetically and grammatically i.e. to most English Speakers "Karlovy Vary" doesn't even give a clue to English speakers about a possible meaning of the name, (which in my view nonetheless would make it perhaps more interesting to discover the reasons of that name, or would at least broaden their knowledge by letting them know "Carlsbad" or "Charlesbath" in a different language and which besides is official) while "Carlsbad" does give them a closer clue as it is directly tied with their native language.
It has been stated as well that "Karlovy Vary" is the official name and that most nationalities including the very same Czech know it as as so, which is true.
So here is my conclusion:
It would be more wikipedian to name the article "Carlsbad", adding into it the fact that Karlovy Vary is its official and more recognized name throughout the world and in the very same Czech Republic.
But it would be more "officialy correct" to name the article "Karlovy Vary" as it is after all the way the natives call it and the way most in the world know it.
So it's matter of deciding wether to attach to Wikipedia's rules by attaching strictly to naming conventions giving priority perhaps to a "dogmatic" edition of wikipedia that would remain more wikipedian of course or leting the article be named "Karlovy Vary" with "Carlsbad" redirecting to it for English Native Speakers not to be unable to find the article they're searching for.
My personal choice:
Naming it "Karlovy Vary" - Even though it is more wikipedian to name it "Carlsbad" it becomes unofficial nomenclature. Also, lets take into account that the conventions apply to "English Speakers", not to "English Native Speakers" (arguably one should overunderstand that it is refering to the majourity of Native Speakers, though) and... how many non-native English speakers exist on these days? Applying relativity we could say that "the majourity of English speakers" is not even native-English speaking, or at least so they say will be one day. But well, that's not the point, the point is that, even if it's more wikipedian to name it "Carlsbad" it's perhaps, in my view, a bit misinforming due to the present situation of the official name of the city.
I personally like more "Karlovy Vary" because we're talking about a Czech city here and "Carlsbad" is "too anglo-saxon" for my taste. (Just giving my personal point of view).
So... it's just matter to decide what is more important: Attaching to wikipedian rules or putting the oficial information over wikipedia's rules forcing English speakers to call Karlovy Vary what probably they know as "Carlsbad" and to keep in mind its name, although they might know it as so, is not "Carlsbad" but Karlovy Vary.
It's more dogmatically wikipedian to call it "Carlsbad", but it is more official to call it Karlovy Vary. Should this be an exception for naming conventions in sake of stablishing an official nomenclature for any language?
Let's talk about what's more important to do, if it's more important to keep wikipedian, then, may the name be "Carlsbad" but, if it's more important to make Native English Speakers used to call it karlovy Vary, then, lets call it Karlovy Vary.
Naming it "Carlsbad" and stating that its official name is Karlovy Vary, would let the Native English Speaker readers decide by themselves wether to call it by the most common name in their countries or by its official name.
Personally I think that in this particular case it would be better to make people acustomed to call this city Karlovy Vary because it's its actual name, the name by which most people know it regardless of nationality and in my view it would be good to foment the disuse of a nomenclature that does not apply to the present reality. Like making "an official international name" This is just what I would personally like.. Besides... perhaps it would also avoid ambiguity when referring to other "Carlsbad"s Native English Speakrs might know or find in their Nations or other more germanic nations (to which Carlsbad suits better). 189.141.62.172 02:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma
I can't resist adding my two cents to this debate. Karlovy Vary is definitely the official and local name of the place these days. That said, to the extent most English speakers think or speak of it at all, they would think of it as Carlsbad. That is the search they would type if they were searching for it from scratch (as opposed to linking from another page). The modern convention in atlases, however, is generally to use the local/official name, even when the atlas is otherwise in English. This is a matter of courtesy and respect to the local population. The same logic probably applies to newspapers. On the other hand, over the long history of the place, and especially during its pre-World War I heyday, its official name was generally Karlsbad, and that transferred over to English as Carlsbad. I'd say that is still the preferred English usage. Most Americans probably haven't heard of the town in either form, but those who have are much more liklely to recognize Carlsbad. The same is likely true of other native English peakers. As someone else pointed out, it also makes more etymolgical sense in terms of an English speaker being able to decipher the meaning of the name. Following the Wikipedia rule, the English article should be entitled "Carlsbad." That said, since Wikipedia is very good at identifying alternatives and shunting readers to the article they actually want, it's probably no great problem if someone typing "Carlsbad" in the search box ends up at Karlovy Vary. 167.102.231.183 ( talk) 20:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)Lloyd S.
When I was in Karlovy Vary, they told me that Peter the Great had studied carpentry there... does anyone know about any official source supporting this claim? 189.141.62.172 02:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma
Someone ( User:Darwinek) thought it fit to include this article in the WikiProject Germany. As This Wikiproject is not about contemporary German towns or regions but on topics that are related to Germany, anybody who removes the tag will at least need to give reasons. Otherwise the removal must be regarded as an act of vandalism. Unoffensive text or character 11:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The project says that its goal is to improve "articles related to Germany". Bohemia is not a part of Germany. Historically and today, Germans or German weren't dominant in the area. At best Bohemia can be linked to German history, or World War 2. But not modern Germany. Rex 14:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I hope he does not mind, but I'm borrowing Balcer's rationale: "While the present location of any town cannot be disputed, one could talk endlessly about the degree to which a given town must be impacted by another country's culture to be included in that country's project. More pessimistically, I could easily imagine various nationalists sticking the project tag of their nation all over the place under various pretexts. So overall, while project tags are mostly harmless, why not be on the safe side, avoid controversy, and use only the tag for the country where the town is presently located." Olessi 19:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
@Balcer: What would be the problem if a town, region or person were included in more than one project? You were the one who had the good idea of including Karlovy Vary in the Germany project. You must have had reasons for doing so. I take it that they run along this line: Karlovy Vary is a town with both Austro-German and Czech roots. Therefore, why not include it in both projects. These projects do not put a stamp on articles that says: "The subject of this article rightfully belongs to Germany (or the Czech Republic) and nowhere else". It is simply a means of identifying articles that are "related to" this country. No nationalism involved, no revisionism, nothing. Along come some people with a vivid imagination who think there might be nationalists misinterpreting these country tags. But, I ask you, so what? Will that in any way change the content of the article? I am still confident that the majority of users are sensible persons and not nationalists. Unoffensive text or character 14:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that if this article fits under WP Germany, it would fit under History in relation to Germany. Does this article significantly in Germany;s history? Kingjeff 21:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The exclusion of Vienna is a rather weak argument for not including Carlsbad in the German Wiki project. Whether or not Carlsberg is tagged that way should be able to stand on its own merits. There is enough room for the article to be included as part of both the Czech and German wiki projects. Quite simply Germany and Czechoslovakia share some history – that's fairly obvious. Including the city as part of both projects is legitimate as it acknowledges this shared history and helps create an appropriate context for understanding. Tagging Kingjeff with a 3RR violation over this was a pretty cheap shot and a poor man's way out of a proper debate over the issue. Tsk! Wiggy! 04:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
My input. I think it should be possible to tag places with various project tags as nothing is black and white but (as we discussed with Balcer earlier) for now it would be better to include only tag of a country which currently administers such place. Cities such as Karlovy Vary should be tagged by e.g. WPP German History or German Culture if such projects would appear in the future. And then it will be no problem with that as it is much less controversial solution and also fair, as many towns e.g. in Sudetenland were and are strongly influenced by German culture, architecture etc. (it is not a matter of pertinence to same state). In the same way it would be correct to tag Armenian villages in Turkey with WPP Armenian culture, Danish municipalities in Germany with WPP Danish culture and Polish municipalities in the Czech Republic with WPP Polish culture. Regards. - Darwinek 07:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I opposed changing the name of this entry to Carlsbad/Karlsbad. I was backpacking in the Czech Republic earlier this year and every map or guidebook in english (i.e. when Prague = Prague and not Praha) had this town listed as Karlovy Vary. Local tour guides and info. desks had this referred to this town as 'Karlovy Vary', and to be honest I never knew this town was a.k.a Carlsbad/Karlsbad until I stumbled upon this wiki entry and the debate within. The 'official website of the czech republic' has 3 search results for 'Carlsbad', none for 'Karlsbad' and 63 for Karlovy Vary.
I'm not sure how this is done for cities, but for football (soccer) teams this local language vs. english (german?) issue is solved by using whatever the english website of the team (city) uses. (i.e. the case of Czvena Zvezda vs. Red Star Belgrade).
In this case the official english website of this town uses the term 'Karlovy Vary' in the browser title and with the largest text as a page title, with both 'Karlsbad' and 'Carlsbad' in smaller text. I'm happy for the wiki entries for both Karlsbad and Carlsbad to redirect to this main page (of Karlovy Vary) - which is as it is now. I don't really understand why this is an issue as it is makes sense as it is now. Gresszilla ( talk) 14:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know, the KV International Airport was built in the 30's [4], while the russian noveaux-riches are from the 90's —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.100.71.97 ( talk) 11:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
^ Yep, the source they have used (ref 2 in the article) mentions nothing of russian mob using real estate to launder money, or about creating an airport. All the article mentions is that the major requested an investigation and report by the interior ministor. I propose deleting the text block about the mafia building their own airport to run flights to moscow and back. Since the article is from Jan 2005 (!!) I think if this is true surely a more recent source can be found with the results of any such report (or ANY such source) if people want this airport story to stay in the wiki. Will give it a few days for someone to find a new source before deleting/rewording the paragraph 220.239.248.137 ( talk) 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
The airport used is the one built in 1930 and having the status of international airport since 1936. The flights operated to this date are Prague, St Petersburgh and Moscow. [5]. Given its large capacity and proximity to the center any rumours about another airport being built close to this relatively small city seem to be an urban legend and no application has been filed with and investigated by the authorities. 90.129.51.213 ( talk) 13:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, I deleted it - stayed long enough, IMHO —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.16.161.89 ( talk) 01:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday i returned from Czech after being visiting this city. We bought a souvenir cup with the city's name in different languages on it including Carlsbad.
In my opinion history should be IN the article, not reflecting in the name of the article.
The name should reflect the current place in the current language. I guess it is Carlsbad but i am Dutch and we don't have a distinct Dutch name, we use the German Karlsbad. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
PauloCalipari (
talk •
contribs) 23:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. The town is called Karlovy Vary in English; we're lucky to have the proof of a Hollywood movie, just watch the movie "Last Holiday", which has many scenes in the main character's dream vacation spot: Karlovy Vary. -- Bobak ( talk) 06:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Karlovy Vary is perhaps better for Czech nationalist reasons, but it is unwieldily and strange in English. English is my native language, I've only ever heard the town referred to as Carlsbad (a random movie is not the final say on the English language) We have a town nearby named Carlsbad named after the one in Europe. "Carlsbad" may be Anglicized, and it may be too similar to the German name for your taste, but it IS still historically accurate, and it IS the name in English. Ubudoda ( talk) 10:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The article is certainly not at its current name just because of a film, the current name is in current and widespread use. If you feel the name is "inaccurate" you may want to inform most other English-language general reference works of their "mistake": ( Britannica, Columbia encyclopedia, Encarta, CIA World Factbook would be a good start), before moving on to the wider English language media (such as multiple uses in the New York Times, the Times (2), the Sydney Morning Herald (2), the Globe and Mail (2)).
We haven't even got started on the specialist English-language academic literature yet - these are all articles for mass consumption by native English speakers. If you have never heard this town referred to by the name Karlovy Vary, this is certainly not for want of opportunity to do so.
In the face of overwhelming evidence of common use in English language texts, personal anecdote and baseless claims of inaccuracy and nationalism don't hack it. Knepflerle ( talk) 14:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
If we're going to go by original names, let's rename Carlsbad, California back to its real name: Frazier's Station. :-> Carlsbad is the German name for the town. The Germans (that is, the Habsburgs of Austria-Hungary) haven't owned the city since 1918. The Germans that remained were expelled after 1945 ( Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia if you're interested). Surely, we're not going to rename every ex-Austro-Hungarian city with their prior name? Am I going to see on the Prešov talk page and see a debate to rename it Eperies or Preschau?!? (The German/Hungarian names, no doubt in some older English books & texts...) Markvs88 ( talk) 00:03, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi Bobak. As per: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#General_guidelines alternate names are placed in the brackets with the proper lang template like: {{lang-de|Kalsbad}}. This is how the German version of Karlovy Vary is in the lead and the English one should not be different. The guidelines also state that 10% of English sources must use Carlsbad. The guideline states that you can go ahead and create a Etymology section and of course people can crow about how the city was named after Charles IV ( Czech: Karel IV., German: Karl IV, Latin: Carolus IV) (14 May 1316 – 29 November 1378), born Wenceslaus ( Václav) in the history. (The dude didn't even use the name "Charles").
Additionally Italics was misused in your version anyhow. -- Hutcher ( talk) 04:46, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I had never heard of Karlovy Vary until I was vacationing in the beautiful town of Carlsbad, California, last year. I happened to see a plaque along the main street there commemorating the beach city's sister city relationship with some Czech town. It took a lot of reading and research before I figured out that strangely-named (to my Anglo ears) town is the place that I used to hear of as Carlsbad or Karlsbad. My curiosity aroused, I did some some wiki-browsing and discovered that a lot of articles contained links to plain old Karlsbad and failed to distinguish between the Karlovy Vary version of that name and a small town in Germany with the same name. I've tried to remedy this situation whenever I've had a few minutes to kill and could figure out which town an article was talking about. I hope I've guessed correctly while making these corrections. DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 04:32, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Another visit to that beautiful California town last week inspired me to do some more disambiguation work. Wiki-editors keep adding material to various articles, referring to the Czech town by its customary English name, Carlsbad or Karlsbad. The thought never occurs to them that its article could be known by any other name! I can't believe the nonsense in the discussion above which prevented this article from being known as Carlsbad. But I'm not about to kick open a hornet's nest by suggesting we move the article to where it belongs!
This is the English language Wikipedia and articles should bear titles which reflect the names we call things in English. Never mind what somebody in some other country might call a city. We should call it by its customary English name in our Wikipedia. When I'm speaking another language, I'm glad to use Nueva York or Nouvelle York or Londres or whatever. But if we're speaking English, I call it by its English name! DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 03:46, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Done! Thanks for the suggestion. I realize Carlsbad is the preferred English spelling, but I think we've seen Karlsbad enough in our language to be aware of it. DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 15:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Ngrams shows Carlsbad to be the most common name, so I will move it. If it is reverted, please discuss below.
OttomanJackson ( talk) 21:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
These plums (usually Quetsch) are candied in hot syrup, then halved and stuffed into dried damsons
This needs more explanation. A damson is a small plum. You can't fit half a plum inside a damson, even if you remove the stones of both first. Maproom ( talk) 13:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
As it stands, the text reads "After World War II, in accordance with the Potsdam Agreement, the vast majority of the people of Carlsbad were forcibly expelled from the city because of their German ethnicity."
As to the Potsdam Agreement, the text makes plain that "(the parties) agree that any transfers that take place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner." As we should all know, in the event many thousands died on the march. It is therefore simply not correct to state that the expulsion took place "in accordance with" the Agreement. Would anyone object to amending the text to read "pursuant to"? In my view, even this would be a whitewash. Theeurocrat ( talk) 14:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Is there an explanation for the sudden drop in population from 2013 to 2014 after having been stable for 13 years?
Something significant must have happened.
-- 23.119.204.117 ( talk) 21:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
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Strange, I have never, ever heard of this being called anything other than Carlsbad. Ameise -- chat 05:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
As Wikipedia does with all the historically German areas stolen from Germany and Austria at the end of World War II, in which at least 15 million Germans were expelled from lands they had lived on since the Middle Ages, it does everything it can to hide the fact these were German lands. That also goes for Memel, Konigsberg, Danzig, Stettin, and the entire Baltic Coast of what became Poland in 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:7D0:888E:3900:15CF:E66C:C437:63A2 ( talk) 20:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was
no consensus, not moved.
Teke (
talk) 05:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Whoops, I meant to write "no consensus to move." Teke ( talk) 21:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Karlovy Vary → Carlsbad — There are already talk entries supporting this. There was even a sentence in the article that claimed that other places like the Carlsbad caverns in the US take their name from Karlovy Vary (sic!), which stretched political correctness obviously quite far. Similar case as Prague, not Praha (and IMHO Cracow, not Kraków) Matthead discuß! O 23:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Strong Oppose: I am an American who has been living in the Czech Republic for the last year. Everyone calls it Karlovy Vary- Americans, Czechs and other Europeans. The Germans call it Karlsbad-- that is why some places have been named after it like that. There is no question that this city is called "Karlovy Vary." Nobody here calls it Karlsbad ever.
Not so fast please. This looks like the infamous Gdansk/Danzig case: however, modern Czech name Karlovy Vary is a) official and more correct b) even more prominent in English today as the old German rendering Carlsbad:
need more? Duja ► 13:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
If you want a -real- English name, let's call it Carl's Bath. Ameise -- chat 03:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Some of the above discussion seems rather incivil, and I hope the participants can calm down and assume good faith with each other. Personal attacks will not help the situation, but will only heighten tensions and make things worse. Olessi 04:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Actions against consensus are very unwikipedian [1]. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 12:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Huh, this one is good [2]. He will push his POV and german equivalents all over the wikipedia. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 14:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
27x Karlovy Vary (or alternative spelling) and 3x Karlsbad (Turkish, Deutsh, Nederland) which we can count with. There is no doubt about number of use. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 22:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[3] German Karlsbad, also spelled Carlsbad, spa city, Západoceský kraj (region), western Czech Republic. The city lies along the Teplá River where it flows into the valley of the Ohre River, 70 miles (113 km) west of Prague. The surrounding highland areas were once subject to volcanic activity, which accounts for the thermal springs in the vicinity. Of more than a dozen active warm springs, the best-known and hottest, Vrídlo
Greetings to all, although I'm not an editor on Wikipedia I couldn't miss the heated debate around the nomenclature for this article. I'm not an expert on the subject but I'd like to share my point of view.
When I travelled to Karlovy Vary, indeed population there knew it as Karlovy Vary, our tourist guide (from Spain) named it Karlovy Vary and the first time I knew of Karlovy Vary (I'm native Spanish speaker) was as Karlovy Vary. Without doubt this is its official name.
However, the naming conventions sate "Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
This is justified by the following principle:
Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists"
Attaching to this, and although the CORRECT and OFFICIAL name and with which I personally agree more, the correct wikipedian nomenclature (in case all or most English-speakers know it as so) should be "Carlsbad".
So here we should make a comparison between official and "more commonly known in English" names.
Here has been stated that "Carlsbad" is not only the name by which ost English speakers know Karlovy Vary, but accurately, it is closer to what it would mean in English both phonetically and grammatically i.e. to most English Speakers "Karlovy Vary" doesn't even give a clue to English speakers about a possible meaning of the name, (which in my view nonetheless would make it perhaps more interesting to discover the reasons of that name, or would at least broaden their knowledge by letting them know "Carlsbad" or "Charlesbath" in a different language and which besides is official) while "Carlsbad" does give them a closer clue as it is directly tied with their native language.
It has been stated as well that "Karlovy Vary" is the official name and that most nationalities including the very same Czech know it as as so, which is true.
So here is my conclusion:
It would be more wikipedian to name the article "Carlsbad", adding into it the fact that Karlovy Vary is its official and more recognized name throughout the world and in the very same Czech Republic.
But it would be more "officialy correct" to name the article "Karlovy Vary" as it is after all the way the natives call it and the way most in the world know it.
So it's matter of deciding wether to attach to Wikipedia's rules by attaching strictly to naming conventions giving priority perhaps to a "dogmatic" edition of wikipedia that would remain more wikipedian of course or leting the article be named "Karlovy Vary" with "Carlsbad" redirecting to it for English Native Speakers not to be unable to find the article they're searching for.
My personal choice:
Naming it "Karlovy Vary" - Even though it is more wikipedian to name it "Carlsbad" it becomes unofficial nomenclature. Also, lets take into account that the conventions apply to "English Speakers", not to "English Native Speakers" (arguably one should overunderstand that it is refering to the majourity of Native Speakers, though) and... how many non-native English speakers exist on these days? Applying relativity we could say that "the majourity of English speakers" is not even native-English speaking, or at least so they say will be one day. But well, that's not the point, the point is that, even if it's more wikipedian to name it "Carlsbad" it's perhaps, in my view, a bit misinforming due to the present situation of the official name of the city.
I personally like more "Karlovy Vary" because we're talking about a Czech city here and "Carlsbad" is "too anglo-saxon" for my taste. (Just giving my personal point of view).
So... it's just matter to decide what is more important: Attaching to wikipedian rules or putting the oficial information over wikipedia's rules forcing English speakers to call Karlovy Vary what probably they know as "Carlsbad" and to keep in mind its name, although they might know it as so, is not "Carlsbad" but Karlovy Vary.
It's more dogmatically wikipedian to call it "Carlsbad", but it is more official to call it Karlovy Vary. Should this be an exception for naming conventions in sake of stablishing an official nomenclature for any language?
Let's talk about what's more important to do, if it's more important to keep wikipedian, then, may the name be "Carlsbad" but, if it's more important to make Native English Speakers used to call it karlovy Vary, then, lets call it Karlovy Vary.
Naming it "Carlsbad" and stating that its official name is Karlovy Vary, would let the Native English Speaker readers decide by themselves wether to call it by the most common name in their countries or by its official name.
Personally I think that in this particular case it would be better to make people acustomed to call this city Karlovy Vary because it's its actual name, the name by which most people know it regardless of nationality and in my view it would be good to foment the disuse of a nomenclature that does not apply to the present reality. Like making "an official international name" This is just what I would personally like.. Besides... perhaps it would also avoid ambiguity when referring to other "Carlsbad"s Native English Speakrs might know or find in their Nations or other more germanic nations (to which Carlsbad suits better). 189.141.62.172 02:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma
I can't resist adding my two cents to this debate. Karlovy Vary is definitely the official and local name of the place these days. That said, to the extent most English speakers think or speak of it at all, they would think of it as Carlsbad. That is the search they would type if they were searching for it from scratch (as opposed to linking from another page). The modern convention in atlases, however, is generally to use the local/official name, even when the atlas is otherwise in English. This is a matter of courtesy and respect to the local population. The same logic probably applies to newspapers. On the other hand, over the long history of the place, and especially during its pre-World War I heyday, its official name was generally Karlsbad, and that transferred over to English as Carlsbad. I'd say that is still the preferred English usage. Most Americans probably haven't heard of the town in either form, but those who have are much more liklely to recognize Carlsbad. The same is likely true of other native English peakers. As someone else pointed out, it also makes more etymolgical sense in terms of an English speaker being able to decipher the meaning of the name. Following the Wikipedia rule, the English article should be entitled "Carlsbad." That said, since Wikipedia is very good at identifying alternatives and shunting readers to the article they actually want, it's probably no great problem if someone typing "Carlsbad" in the search box ends up at Karlovy Vary. 167.102.231.183 ( talk) 20:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)Lloyd S.
When I was in Karlovy Vary, they told me that Peter the Great had studied carpentry there... does anyone know about any official source supporting this claim? 189.141.62.172 02:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma
Someone ( User:Darwinek) thought it fit to include this article in the WikiProject Germany. As This Wikiproject is not about contemporary German towns or regions but on topics that are related to Germany, anybody who removes the tag will at least need to give reasons. Otherwise the removal must be regarded as an act of vandalism. Unoffensive text or character 11:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The project says that its goal is to improve "articles related to Germany". Bohemia is not a part of Germany. Historically and today, Germans or German weren't dominant in the area. At best Bohemia can be linked to German history, or World War 2. But not modern Germany. Rex 14:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I hope he does not mind, but I'm borrowing Balcer's rationale: "While the present location of any town cannot be disputed, one could talk endlessly about the degree to which a given town must be impacted by another country's culture to be included in that country's project. More pessimistically, I could easily imagine various nationalists sticking the project tag of their nation all over the place under various pretexts. So overall, while project tags are mostly harmless, why not be on the safe side, avoid controversy, and use only the tag for the country where the town is presently located." Olessi 19:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
@Balcer: What would be the problem if a town, region or person were included in more than one project? You were the one who had the good idea of including Karlovy Vary in the Germany project. You must have had reasons for doing so. I take it that they run along this line: Karlovy Vary is a town with both Austro-German and Czech roots. Therefore, why not include it in both projects. These projects do not put a stamp on articles that says: "The subject of this article rightfully belongs to Germany (or the Czech Republic) and nowhere else". It is simply a means of identifying articles that are "related to" this country. No nationalism involved, no revisionism, nothing. Along come some people with a vivid imagination who think there might be nationalists misinterpreting these country tags. But, I ask you, so what? Will that in any way change the content of the article? I am still confident that the majority of users are sensible persons and not nationalists. Unoffensive text or character 14:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that if this article fits under WP Germany, it would fit under History in relation to Germany. Does this article significantly in Germany;s history? Kingjeff 21:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The exclusion of Vienna is a rather weak argument for not including Carlsbad in the German Wiki project. Whether or not Carlsberg is tagged that way should be able to stand on its own merits. There is enough room for the article to be included as part of both the Czech and German wiki projects. Quite simply Germany and Czechoslovakia share some history – that's fairly obvious. Including the city as part of both projects is legitimate as it acknowledges this shared history and helps create an appropriate context for understanding. Tagging Kingjeff with a 3RR violation over this was a pretty cheap shot and a poor man's way out of a proper debate over the issue. Tsk! Wiggy! 04:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
My input. I think it should be possible to tag places with various project tags as nothing is black and white but (as we discussed with Balcer earlier) for now it would be better to include only tag of a country which currently administers such place. Cities such as Karlovy Vary should be tagged by e.g. WPP German History or German Culture if such projects would appear in the future. And then it will be no problem with that as it is much less controversial solution and also fair, as many towns e.g. in Sudetenland were and are strongly influenced by German culture, architecture etc. (it is not a matter of pertinence to same state). In the same way it would be correct to tag Armenian villages in Turkey with WPP Armenian culture, Danish municipalities in Germany with WPP Danish culture and Polish municipalities in the Czech Republic with WPP Polish culture. Regards. - Darwinek 07:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I opposed changing the name of this entry to Carlsbad/Karlsbad. I was backpacking in the Czech Republic earlier this year and every map or guidebook in english (i.e. when Prague = Prague and not Praha) had this town listed as Karlovy Vary. Local tour guides and info. desks had this referred to this town as 'Karlovy Vary', and to be honest I never knew this town was a.k.a Carlsbad/Karlsbad until I stumbled upon this wiki entry and the debate within. The 'official website of the czech republic' has 3 search results for 'Carlsbad', none for 'Karlsbad' and 63 for Karlovy Vary.
I'm not sure how this is done for cities, but for football (soccer) teams this local language vs. english (german?) issue is solved by using whatever the english website of the team (city) uses. (i.e. the case of Czvena Zvezda vs. Red Star Belgrade).
In this case the official english website of this town uses the term 'Karlovy Vary' in the browser title and with the largest text as a page title, with both 'Karlsbad' and 'Carlsbad' in smaller text. I'm happy for the wiki entries for both Karlsbad and Carlsbad to redirect to this main page (of Karlovy Vary) - which is as it is now. I don't really understand why this is an issue as it is makes sense as it is now. Gresszilla ( talk) 14:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know, the KV International Airport was built in the 30's [4], while the russian noveaux-riches are from the 90's —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.100.71.97 ( talk) 11:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
^ Yep, the source they have used (ref 2 in the article) mentions nothing of russian mob using real estate to launder money, or about creating an airport. All the article mentions is that the major requested an investigation and report by the interior ministor. I propose deleting the text block about the mafia building their own airport to run flights to moscow and back. Since the article is from Jan 2005 (!!) I think if this is true surely a more recent source can be found with the results of any such report (or ANY such source) if people want this airport story to stay in the wiki. Will give it a few days for someone to find a new source before deleting/rewording the paragraph 220.239.248.137 ( talk) 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
The airport used is the one built in 1930 and having the status of international airport since 1936. The flights operated to this date are Prague, St Petersburgh and Moscow. [5]. Given its large capacity and proximity to the center any rumours about another airport being built close to this relatively small city seem to be an urban legend and no application has been filed with and investigated by the authorities. 90.129.51.213 ( talk) 13:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, I deleted it - stayed long enough, IMHO —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.16.161.89 ( talk) 01:40, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday i returned from Czech after being visiting this city. We bought a souvenir cup with the city's name in different languages on it including Carlsbad.
In my opinion history should be IN the article, not reflecting in the name of the article.
The name should reflect the current place in the current language. I guess it is Carlsbad but i am Dutch and we don't have a distinct Dutch name, we use the German Karlsbad. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
PauloCalipari (
talk •
contribs) 23:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
This is unacceptable. The town is called Karlovy Vary in English; we're lucky to have the proof of a Hollywood movie, just watch the movie "Last Holiday", which has many scenes in the main character's dream vacation spot: Karlovy Vary. -- Bobak ( talk) 06:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Karlovy Vary is perhaps better for Czech nationalist reasons, but it is unwieldily and strange in English. English is my native language, I've only ever heard the town referred to as Carlsbad (a random movie is not the final say on the English language) We have a town nearby named Carlsbad named after the one in Europe. "Carlsbad" may be Anglicized, and it may be too similar to the German name for your taste, but it IS still historically accurate, and it IS the name in English. Ubudoda ( talk) 10:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
The article is certainly not at its current name just because of a film, the current name is in current and widespread use. If you feel the name is "inaccurate" you may want to inform most other English-language general reference works of their "mistake": ( Britannica, Columbia encyclopedia, Encarta, CIA World Factbook would be a good start), before moving on to the wider English language media (such as multiple uses in the New York Times, the Times (2), the Sydney Morning Herald (2), the Globe and Mail (2)).
We haven't even got started on the specialist English-language academic literature yet - these are all articles for mass consumption by native English speakers. If you have never heard this town referred to by the name Karlovy Vary, this is certainly not for want of opportunity to do so.
In the face of overwhelming evidence of common use in English language texts, personal anecdote and baseless claims of inaccuracy and nationalism don't hack it. Knepflerle ( talk) 14:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
If we're going to go by original names, let's rename Carlsbad, California back to its real name: Frazier's Station. :-> Carlsbad is the German name for the town. The Germans (that is, the Habsburgs of Austria-Hungary) haven't owned the city since 1918. The Germans that remained were expelled after 1945 ( Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia if you're interested). Surely, we're not going to rename every ex-Austro-Hungarian city with their prior name? Am I going to see on the Prešov talk page and see a debate to rename it Eperies or Preschau?!? (The German/Hungarian names, no doubt in some older English books & texts...) Markvs88 ( talk) 00:03, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi Bobak. As per: Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#General_guidelines alternate names are placed in the brackets with the proper lang template like: {{lang-de|Kalsbad}}. This is how the German version of Karlovy Vary is in the lead and the English one should not be different. The guidelines also state that 10% of English sources must use Carlsbad. The guideline states that you can go ahead and create a Etymology section and of course people can crow about how the city was named after Charles IV ( Czech: Karel IV., German: Karl IV, Latin: Carolus IV) (14 May 1316 – 29 November 1378), born Wenceslaus ( Václav) in the history. (The dude didn't even use the name "Charles").
Additionally Italics was misused in your version anyhow. -- Hutcher ( talk) 04:46, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I had never heard of Karlovy Vary until I was vacationing in the beautiful town of Carlsbad, California, last year. I happened to see a plaque along the main street there commemorating the beach city's sister city relationship with some Czech town. It took a lot of reading and research before I figured out that strangely-named (to my Anglo ears) town is the place that I used to hear of as Carlsbad or Karlsbad. My curiosity aroused, I did some some wiki-browsing and discovered that a lot of articles contained links to plain old Karlsbad and failed to distinguish between the Karlovy Vary version of that name and a small town in Germany with the same name. I've tried to remedy this situation whenever I've had a few minutes to kill and could figure out which town an article was talking about. I hope I've guessed correctly while making these corrections. DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 04:32, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Another visit to that beautiful California town last week inspired me to do some more disambiguation work. Wiki-editors keep adding material to various articles, referring to the Czech town by its customary English name, Carlsbad or Karlsbad. The thought never occurs to them that its article could be known by any other name! I can't believe the nonsense in the discussion above which prevented this article from being known as Carlsbad. But I'm not about to kick open a hornet's nest by suggesting we move the article to where it belongs!
This is the English language Wikipedia and articles should bear titles which reflect the names we call things in English. Never mind what somebody in some other country might call a city. We should call it by its customary English name in our Wikipedia. When I'm speaking another language, I'm glad to use Nueva York or Nouvelle York or Londres or whatever. But if we're speaking English, I call it by its English name! DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 03:46, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Done! Thanks for the suggestion. I realize Carlsbad is the preferred English spelling, but I think we've seen Karlsbad enough in our language to be aware of it. DutchmanInDisguise ( talk) 15:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Ngrams shows Carlsbad to be the most common name, so I will move it. If it is reverted, please discuss below.
OttomanJackson ( talk) 21:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
These plums (usually Quetsch) are candied in hot syrup, then halved and stuffed into dried damsons
This needs more explanation. A damson is a small plum. You can't fit half a plum inside a damson, even if you remove the stones of both first. Maproom ( talk) 13:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
As it stands, the text reads "After World War II, in accordance with the Potsdam Agreement, the vast majority of the people of Carlsbad were forcibly expelled from the city because of their German ethnicity."
As to the Potsdam Agreement, the text makes plain that "(the parties) agree that any transfers that take place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner." As we should all know, in the event many thousands died on the march. It is therefore simply not correct to state that the expulsion took place "in accordance with" the Agreement. Would anyone object to amending the text to read "pursuant to"? In my view, even this would be a whitewash. Theeurocrat ( talk) 14:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Is there an explanation for the sudden drop in population from 2013 to 2014 after having been stable for 13 years?
Something significant must have happened.
-- 23.119.204.117 ( talk) 21:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
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