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Could probably afford some expansion, but as it stands, it's more than just a good start - picture, infobox, references... LordAmeth 17:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it worth keeping such trivia on the page? -- UrsusArctosL71 ( talk) 13:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
yes. Loosmark ( talk) 14:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
"Popular Culture References" are nothing more than trivia sections renamed. They should be eliminated on ALL pages. While "which academic papers have referenced this academic paper" compilations are useful in the world of academic research, there is absolutely no significance to the fact that some work of fiction or another (such as an anime cartoon) uses the name as a character, or even a representation of a ship as part of the plot, because none of that has any actual influence on the actual ship being discussed. It is one thing to say that "many historical documentaries cover the ship's history" and quite another (and a pointless one at that) to say "a cartoon writer used the name of this ship". 76.243.106.37 ( talk) 14:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
This is a useful source: Fuchida, Mitsuo; Okumiya, Masatake (1955). Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan, The Japanese Navy's Story. Annapolis, Maryland: United States Naval Institute. Fuchida was aboard the carrier at Midway. The book is co-authored by a historian, and the US edition analyzes and comments on some of the original text, so it is not a purely first-person account.
The unusual portside placement of the island was intended to avoid interference with aircraft when operating with Kaga, an unsuccessful experiment. Kablammo ( talk) 17:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I've seen another reference (I think Chapman but couldn't swear to it) who also states that the port-side islands on Akagi and Hiryu was that they were intended to work as pairs with Kaga and Soryu respectively. As aircraft waiting to land circle the island, the idea was that the circles would counter-rotate so that planes flying between a pair of carriers would always be flying in the same direction, rather than on head-on approach. It was a good theory that just didn't work in practice. The port side island was nothing to do with the exhaust arrangements. 213.143.133.108 ( talk) 13:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Was the Akagi equipted with catapults fpr launching her airplanes. In documentaries it looks as the planes would just roll off and take off. Not using a catapult.-- 109.91.72.35 ( talk) 00:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I notice that a lot of the information I added in the footnotes, especially details about the carrier's CAP operations at Midway, has been removed. Was there a concern that the footnotes were too long or had too much detail? Cla68 ( talk) 07:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
The text states that the original longitudinal arrestor wires were "unsatisfactory" but gives no supporting reference. Longitudinal, rather than transverse, arrestor wires were developed at a time when aircraft were very light and had no difficulty stopping on deck. However, as they were so light they WERE at risk of being blown over the side - and so longitudinal wires were entirely sensible.
Longitudinal wires were generally replaced by transverse wires in the early 1930s, when the weight of carrier aircraft began to increase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.143.133.108 ( talk) 13:34, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know what it is. When I click on the hyperlink, I end up having gone in a circle: "The superstructure of an aircraft carrier." This amounts to the article saying that the aircraft carrier has the superstructure of an aircraft carrier. Beyondallmeaning ( talk) 01:12, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Two tiny queries:
This is a fine article. Have supported at TFA list. Tim riley ( talk) 11:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
The third sentence of the introduction begins with the phrase, "Following Japan's renunciation of the treaty in late 1934," which seems irrelevant. The subject is not mentioned in the body of the article. The ship was converted from cruiser to aircraft carrier to comply with the treaty, and then rebuilt, also as an aircraft carrier, after Japan renounced the treaty. But what does the treaty have to do with the rebuild? The article's introduction should not raise a seeming contradiction which is never resolved. I recommend simply removing that phrase from the introduction.
If the treaty is important, the introduction could say ". . . Washington Naval Treaty, which [restricted cruisers?]. Following Japan's renunciation of the treaty in late 1934, which removed [whatever] restrictions, . . ." However, the text should then explain the relationship between the treaty renunciation and the rebuild.
HowardMorland ( talk) 20:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Good idea, done.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 21:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you I hold Wikipedia in high regard.
Please stop referring to inanimate objects as ships and airplanes in the gender specific. These objects are not a 'her' nor 'she'. They are things. This continued practice oppresses females — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.108.141 ( talk) 15:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
This editor made a thorough review of this article upon its Main Page appearance and some if his rephrasings were genuinely an improvement, but others were not and were reverted. Now this editor is reverting back to his preferred text and we may have an edit war on our hands. To make matters worse, Pol08 has either failed to notice or simply doesn't care that he's incorporating additions by another editor that are clearly in error regarding aircraft names and the conversion template.-- Sturmvogel 66 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 14:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I (pol098) have been asked to explain some rather minor changes I made which have been challenged. What follows is pretty trivial, but here it is. Here are the detailed differences, with my version on the left replaced by Sturmvogel 66's on the right.
1. Conversion from knots to km/h in addition to mi/h is clearly appropriate. Display to 1 decimal place is suitable.
2. To say that listed deficiencies "would eventually doom" ships is a bit overplayed; it is perfectly conceivable that they would have been lost even without them. Saying the factors "contributed significantly" is less definitive about what might have been.
3. To say that the US Navy had divined the Japanese MI plan is not good wording; it implies something coming in a dream or the like. It was discovered (revealed?) by effective military intelligence techniques. Also, the critical point was not that signals were intercepted, but that the Japanese code had been broken, unknown to them; everybody expects radio signals to be intercepted.
4. A hidden comment on the Grumman Avenger wasn't actually originated by me, though I reinstated it; I don't actually support it. As far as I can see, the only "addition by another editor" that I incorporated to the visible text was changing "from VT-8 squadron" to "from Torpedo Squadron 8 (VT-8)", which I did notice and decided was appropriate. I noticed that the country entry in th4 template had been changed by others from "Japan" to "Empire of Japan" (or viceversa? I'm not sure); they both seem acceptable, but maybe I'm wrong.
5. [B-26s shot down] "for the loss of a Zero" says essentially the same as the wordy "One of Akagi's Zeroes, however, was shot down by defensive fire from the B-26s.
6. I would say that "One of the B-26s, piloted by Lieutenant James Muri, strafed Akagi after dropping its torpedo, killing two men." is relatively unimportant detail and nn in the context of the loss of the ship in a major battle. My edit summary said "drop sentence on strafing as unimportant in context", and this has not been challenged.
7. "Depleted of ammunition, three of Akagi's CAP Zeroes landed aboard the carrier" seems a bit wordy, and it is unlikely that they would have landed merely due to depleted ammunition, but only if it was exhausted. "Three of Akagi's CAP Zeroes, out of ammunition, landed" is less wordy and better. I don't think omitting "on the carrier" will confuse any reader. [Deplete: to reduce something in size or amount; Cambridge Dictionaries Online]
8. "dive bombers arrived over the Japanese carriers almost undetected" is rather meaningless; you either detect bombers (and act) or you don't. "Undetected until too late" is clearer.
Pol098 ( talk) 15:18, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
9. An additional very minor and rather pedantic point: the text originally read "This process was limited by the number of ordnance carts (used to handle the bombs and torpedoes) and ordnance elevators, that prevented the torpedoes from being struck below...". It could be said that "the number of ordnance carts" didn't "prevent the torpedoes..." (the limit did, not the number), although this is at worst a minor grammatical point that doesn't obscure the meaning. I modified this wording very slightly, but it would be better to change it more, to something like "The limited number of ordnance carts available to handle the bombs and torpedoes, and of ordnance elevators, did not allow the torpedoes to be struck below...". Not only better, but shorter. Pol098 ( talk) 15:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I can see arguments on both sides, and I agree with some of Pol's edits. Would it be too boring to argue the various points out here, rather than edit-war to the death over it? -- John ( talk) 23:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
What was wrong with creating a link to the page on the Type 96 25 mm AT/AA Gun? It was the standard light AA gun of the Japanese Navy. It was used on ALL of their ships. I think it should be considered common sense that the "25mm AA guns" used on the Akagi were one and the same, and some people are curious to know more about these things. Without a link, they will have to go and search for "japanese navy 25mm AA gun" and see what they come up with (it will be the Type 96, as that is the only 25mm AA gun in the inventory). And I don't see why putting the proper name for the 20 cm/50 3rd Year Type naval gun in the infobox was wrong either. You go onto a typical page about a British warship and the infobox will say
"8 x BL 8-inch (203 mm L/50) Mk.VIII guns in twin mounts Mk.I 4 x QF 4-inch (102 mm) L/45 Mk.V guns in single mounts HA Mk.III 8 x QF 2 pdr (40 mm) L/39 Mk.VIII guns in quad mounts HA Mk.VII "
Why shouldn't the infobox here give the full title of the gun as well? .45Colt 18:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt ( talk • contribs)
One section states the cost of building the Akagi, then attributes this to Parshall and Tully's Shattered Sword. This book, however, uses an unverifiable and possibly invented sources for the information (supposedly from Eric Lacrox, The Belgian Ship/over and Showa Zenshi, but no publisher information or date provided, not even the proper title for the second book provided, and "The Belgian Ship/over" does not even come up in a Worldcat or google books search). The reference to Shattered Sword should be discarded, and the section in this article about Akagi's cost should be removed or marked with citation needed tag.
As with the entry for Kaga (now edited), we have here a translation of the name of Akagi as "Red Castle", when Akagi is in fact a prefecture. 'Aka' does mean 'red' and '-gi' does mean 'castle', but Akagi doesn't mean "a red castle". For the same reasons as the Kaga edit, I move this translation be removed. Tirailleur ( talk) 11:27, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
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@ Sturmvogel 66: @ Smeat75: @ Path-x21: @ Cla68: @ Lyndaship: I don't think the sections Completed: 1 and Lost: 1 should be in the article because Akagi was a singular aircraft carrier, not a class of aircraft carriers/ on top of that the imfobox is titled Class overview again Akagi want not a class of aircraft carriers this titles inaccurate A 10 fireplane ( talk) 13:52, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
the date in the infobox is 22 april, but the photo dated 6 april shows the vessel already launched Suppongoche ( talk) 08:43, 20 December 2020 (UTC) (former pietro)
The old translation of Akagi ("Red Castle") has re-appeared. I suggest it removing it again for the reasons given five years ago (see above), and updating the discussion of the ship's name accordingly. Astro$01 ( talk) 13:02, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Akagi has been revisited by an EV Nautilus scientific expedition on 11 September 2023, which was livestreamed on YouTube:
https://youtube.com/live/wUz1Vb7I2DU
https://nautiluslive.org/blog/2023/08/29/battle-midway-pivotal-wwii-engagement-papahanaumokuakea ElectronicsForDogs ( talk) 12:51, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Japanese aircraft carrier Akagi is part of the Battlecruisers of the world series, a featured topic. It is also part of the Battlecruisers of Japan series, a good topic. These are identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve them, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 7, 2013. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Could probably afford some expansion, but as it stands, it's more than just a good start - picture, infobox, references... LordAmeth 17:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it worth keeping such trivia on the page? -- UrsusArctosL71 ( talk) 13:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
yes. Loosmark ( talk) 14:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
"Popular Culture References" are nothing more than trivia sections renamed. They should be eliminated on ALL pages. While "which academic papers have referenced this academic paper" compilations are useful in the world of academic research, there is absolutely no significance to the fact that some work of fiction or another (such as an anime cartoon) uses the name as a character, or even a representation of a ship as part of the plot, because none of that has any actual influence on the actual ship being discussed. It is one thing to say that "many historical documentaries cover the ship's history" and quite another (and a pointless one at that) to say "a cartoon writer used the name of this ship". 76.243.106.37 ( talk) 14:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
This is a useful source: Fuchida, Mitsuo; Okumiya, Masatake (1955). Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan, The Japanese Navy's Story. Annapolis, Maryland: United States Naval Institute. Fuchida was aboard the carrier at Midway. The book is co-authored by a historian, and the US edition analyzes and comments on some of the original text, so it is not a purely first-person account.
The unusual portside placement of the island was intended to avoid interference with aircraft when operating with Kaga, an unsuccessful experiment. Kablammo ( talk) 17:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I've seen another reference (I think Chapman but couldn't swear to it) who also states that the port-side islands on Akagi and Hiryu was that they were intended to work as pairs with Kaga and Soryu respectively. As aircraft waiting to land circle the island, the idea was that the circles would counter-rotate so that planes flying between a pair of carriers would always be flying in the same direction, rather than on head-on approach. It was a good theory that just didn't work in practice. The port side island was nothing to do with the exhaust arrangements. 213.143.133.108 ( talk) 13:45, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Was the Akagi equipted with catapults fpr launching her airplanes. In documentaries it looks as the planes would just roll off and take off. Not using a catapult.-- 109.91.72.35 ( talk) 00:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I notice that a lot of the information I added in the footnotes, especially details about the carrier's CAP operations at Midway, has been removed. Was there a concern that the footnotes were too long or had too much detail? Cla68 ( talk) 07:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
The text states that the original longitudinal arrestor wires were "unsatisfactory" but gives no supporting reference. Longitudinal, rather than transverse, arrestor wires were developed at a time when aircraft were very light and had no difficulty stopping on deck. However, as they were so light they WERE at risk of being blown over the side - and so longitudinal wires were entirely sensible.
Longitudinal wires were generally replaced by transverse wires in the early 1930s, when the weight of carrier aircraft began to increase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.143.133.108 ( talk) 13:34, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know what it is. When I click on the hyperlink, I end up having gone in a circle: "The superstructure of an aircraft carrier." This amounts to the article saying that the aircraft carrier has the superstructure of an aircraft carrier. Beyondallmeaning ( talk) 01:12, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Two tiny queries:
This is a fine article. Have supported at TFA list. Tim riley ( talk) 11:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
The third sentence of the introduction begins with the phrase, "Following Japan's renunciation of the treaty in late 1934," which seems irrelevant. The subject is not mentioned in the body of the article. The ship was converted from cruiser to aircraft carrier to comply with the treaty, and then rebuilt, also as an aircraft carrier, after Japan renounced the treaty. But what does the treaty have to do with the rebuild? The article's introduction should not raise a seeming contradiction which is never resolved. I recommend simply removing that phrase from the introduction.
If the treaty is important, the introduction could say ". . . Washington Naval Treaty, which [restricted cruisers?]. Following Japan's renunciation of the treaty in late 1934, which removed [whatever] restrictions, . . ." However, the text should then explain the relationship between the treaty renunciation and the rebuild.
HowardMorland ( talk) 20:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Good idea, done.-- Sturmvogel 66 ( talk) 21:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you I hold Wikipedia in high regard.
Please stop referring to inanimate objects as ships and airplanes in the gender specific. These objects are not a 'her' nor 'she'. They are things. This continued practice oppresses females — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.108.141 ( talk) 15:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
This editor made a thorough review of this article upon its Main Page appearance and some if his rephrasings were genuinely an improvement, but others were not and were reverted. Now this editor is reverting back to his preferred text and we may have an edit war on our hands. To make matters worse, Pol08 has either failed to notice or simply doesn't care that he's incorporating additions by another editor that are clearly in error regarding aircraft names and the conversion template.-- Sturmvogel 66 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 14:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I (pol098) have been asked to explain some rather minor changes I made which have been challenged. What follows is pretty trivial, but here it is. Here are the detailed differences, with my version on the left replaced by Sturmvogel 66's on the right.
1. Conversion from knots to km/h in addition to mi/h is clearly appropriate. Display to 1 decimal place is suitable.
2. To say that listed deficiencies "would eventually doom" ships is a bit overplayed; it is perfectly conceivable that they would have been lost even without them. Saying the factors "contributed significantly" is less definitive about what might have been.
3. To say that the US Navy had divined the Japanese MI plan is not good wording; it implies something coming in a dream or the like. It was discovered (revealed?) by effective military intelligence techniques. Also, the critical point was not that signals were intercepted, but that the Japanese code had been broken, unknown to them; everybody expects radio signals to be intercepted.
4. A hidden comment on the Grumman Avenger wasn't actually originated by me, though I reinstated it; I don't actually support it. As far as I can see, the only "addition by another editor" that I incorporated to the visible text was changing "from VT-8 squadron" to "from Torpedo Squadron 8 (VT-8)", which I did notice and decided was appropriate. I noticed that the country entry in th4 template had been changed by others from "Japan" to "Empire of Japan" (or viceversa? I'm not sure); they both seem acceptable, but maybe I'm wrong.
5. [B-26s shot down] "for the loss of a Zero" says essentially the same as the wordy "One of Akagi's Zeroes, however, was shot down by defensive fire from the B-26s.
6. I would say that "One of the B-26s, piloted by Lieutenant James Muri, strafed Akagi after dropping its torpedo, killing two men." is relatively unimportant detail and nn in the context of the loss of the ship in a major battle. My edit summary said "drop sentence on strafing as unimportant in context", and this has not been challenged.
7. "Depleted of ammunition, three of Akagi's CAP Zeroes landed aboard the carrier" seems a bit wordy, and it is unlikely that they would have landed merely due to depleted ammunition, but only if it was exhausted. "Three of Akagi's CAP Zeroes, out of ammunition, landed" is less wordy and better. I don't think omitting "on the carrier" will confuse any reader. [Deplete: to reduce something in size or amount; Cambridge Dictionaries Online]
8. "dive bombers arrived over the Japanese carriers almost undetected" is rather meaningless; you either detect bombers (and act) or you don't. "Undetected until too late" is clearer.
Pol098 ( talk) 15:18, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
9. An additional very minor and rather pedantic point: the text originally read "This process was limited by the number of ordnance carts (used to handle the bombs and torpedoes) and ordnance elevators, that prevented the torpedoes from being struck below...". It could be said that "the number of ordnance carts" didn't "prevent the torpedoes..." (the limit did, not the number), although this is at worst a minor grammatical point that doesn't obscure the meaning. I modified this wording very slightly, but it would be better to change it more, to something like "The limited number of ordnance carts available to handle the bombs and torpedoes, and of ordnance elevators, did not allow the torpedoes to be struck below...". Not only better, but shorter. Pol098 ( talk) 15:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I can see arguments on both sides, and I agree with some of Pol's edits. Would it be too boring to argue the various points out here, rather than edit-war to the death over it? -- John ( talk) 23:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
What was wrong with creating a link to the page on the Type 96 25 mm AT/AA Gun? It was the standard light AA gun of the Japanese Navy. It was used on ALL of their ships. I think it should be considered common sense that the "25mm AA guns" used on the Akagi were one and the same, and some people are curious to know more about these things. Without a link, they will have to go and search for "japanese navy 25mm AA gun" and see what they come up with (it will be the Type 96, as that is the only 25mm AA gun in the inventory). And I don't see why putting the proper name for the 20 cm/50 3rd Year Type naval gun in the infobox was wrong either. You go onto a typical page about a British warship and the infobox will say
"8 x BL 8-inch (203 mm L/50) Mk.VIII guns in twin mounts Mk.I 4 x QF 4-inch (102 mm) L/45 Mk.V guns in single mounts HA Mk.III 8 x QF 2 pdr (40 mm) L/39 Mk.VIII guns in quad mounts HA Mk.VII "
Why shouldn't the infobox here give the full title of the gun as well? .45Colt 18:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt ( talk • contribs)
One section states the cost of building the Akagi, then attributes this to Parshall and Tully's Shattered Sword. This book, however, uses an unverifiable and possibly invented sources for the information (supposedly from Eric Lacrox, The Belgian Ship/over and Showa Zenshi, but no publisher information or date provided, not even the proper title for the second book provided, and "The Belgian Ship/over" does not even come up in a Worldcat or google books search). The reference to Shattered Sword should be discarded, and the section in this article about Akagi's cost should be removed or marked with citation needed tag.
As with the entry for Kaga (now edited), we have here a translation of the name of Akagi as "Red Castle", when Akagi is in fact a prefecture. 'Aka' does mean 'red' and '-gi' does mean 'castle', but Akagi doesn't mean "a red castle". For the same reasons as the Kaga edit, I move this translation be removed. Tirailleur ( talk) 11:27, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
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@ Sturmvogel 66: @ Smeat75: @ Path-x21: @ Cla68: @ Lyndaship: I don't think the sections Completed: 1 and Lost: 1 should be in the article because Akagi was a singular aircraft carrier, not a class of aircraft carriers/ on top of that the imfobox is titled Class overview again Akagi want not a class of aircraft carriers this titles inaccurate A 10 fireplane ( talk) 13:52, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
the date in the infobox is 22 april, but the photo dated 6 april shows the vessel already launched Suppongoche ( talk) 08:43, 20 December 2020 (UTC) (former pietro)
The old translation of Akagi ("Red Castle") has re-appeared. I suggest it removing it again for the reasons given five years ago (see above), and updating the discussion of the ship's name accordingly. Astro$01 ( talk) 13:02, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Akagi has been revisited by an EV Nautilus scientific expedition on 11 September 2023, which was livestreamed on YouTube:
https://youtube.com/live/wUz1Vb7I2DU
https://nautiluslive.org/blog/2023/08/29/battle-midway-pivotal-wwii-engagement-papahanaumokuakea ElectronicsForDogs ( talk) 12:51, 11 September 2023 (UTC)