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This article was nominated for deletion on 8 December 2019. The result of the discussion was keep. |
For example, why did you remove this part: Mohammad Gholi Majd, on the other hand, concluded that three to four million Iranians died of disease and starvation during the Allied occupation.
This article is based on Mohammad Gholi Majd's book. It is cited in sources in the current article. Majd, Mohammad Gholi (2016). Iran Under Allied Occupation In World War II: The Bridge to Victory & A Land of Famine. University Press of America. ISBN 978-0761867388.
Why did you remove his conclusion from this article?
Please can someone put it back in, and make sure whoever was responsible for removing it will never be allowed to touch this article again. A lot of stuff has been removed from this article to white-wash this British-led genocide against the Iranian people.
I'd also like to know who tried to delete this article in December 2019.
In the current WP article it is stated that according to Cormac O Grada, the number of people who died in the WWII Iran famine in unknown, but it was "probably modest." The source appears to be a 2019 working paper by O Grada. [1] In his working paper O Grada cites Julian Bharier's 1968 article (p. 277) as his source. [2]
There is nothing in Bharier's article to justify O Grada to cite it as a source for his claim that the Iran death toll was "probably modest." Bharier's article does not contain anything on the WWI and WWII Iran famines, not even a mention. Moreover, the article is marred by some gross factual inaccuracies, such as the claim that the period 1921-1925 was one of "civil war and famine," a totally inaccurate claim. In short, neither Bharier nor O Grada can be considered a reliable source and should be dropped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moretonian ( talk • contribs) 16:38, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
"These years were years of civil war, famine and little evidence of industrial, transportation or agricultural progress. There is no reason to believe, therefore, that the rate of population growth made any substantial increase in these years."is actually 1919-1925: Bharier refers to
"the growth rate of 0.75% estimated by the widely-travelled Schindler for the years 1875-1910, and extended to 1919 on the basis of a British government study"and states that
"the gap 1920–25 is plugged by extending Schindler's growth rate [0.75% for 1919] to the latter date [i.e., 1925]."Bharier's statement that there is
"little evidence of industrial, transportation or agricultural progress"during these years is not controversial and further supported by the observation that
"1926 is the year in which trucks were first used to transport agricultural crops from surplus areas to famine regions."While Bharier does not directly address the impact of World War II on Iran except in footnote 20 (
"1946 is the first year after World War II when Iran began to find its feet again after the Allied occupation, and with the Allied funds accumulated during the war."), Ó Gráda may have inferred that excess deaths were likely modest based on the 2% population growth rate for 1942–1945 posited by Iran's Civil Registration Office (C.R.O.), which (if accepted) is higher than the average population growth rate for the period 1926–1946 estimated by Amani:
"Amani has suggested a rate of 1.5% between 1926 and 1946—a rate which is in conformity with knowledge of the population structure in 1956. The C.R.O. rate of 2.0% for 1942–45 does not, of course, invalidate Amani's rate, which is an average ... "In any case, the main problem with this article is that few, if any, reliable sources substantiate the core claim that
"The Iranian famine of 1942–1943 refers to a period of major starvation that took place in Iran ... "; reliable sources tend to briefly allude to World War II imposing additional hardships on Iran's population in passing, without suggesting any sort of estimate, whereas a single unreliable self-published source known for wild exaggerations (Majd) has made sweeping claims that there was
"a period of major starvation"resulting in millions of deaths (amounting to more than a fifth of Iran's 1942 population as estimated by Bharier). If anything, this article should probably be deleted due to a lack of sourcing. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 20:08, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
"the obvious conclusion drawn by Majd ... "If it's that obvious, hopefully more reliable sources will catch on soon and we can update the article accordingly! TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 06:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
TheTimesAreAChanging. Your false characterization of the WWII Iran famine as "putative" needs to be refuted. For instance, in the WP article the following is stated: "During the final months of 1942 and in 1943, the streets of Kermanshah were full of semi-naked and hungry people with fifteen death attributed to hunger and poverty occurring every day. In February 1943, typhus broke out in the city and the hospital closed down because of widespread infection among doctors and staff." The cited source is Iran Press Digest, 1985. Majd (2016, p. 554) [7] also quotes from a British intelligence report on conditions in Kermanshah for the week of March 13-20, 1943: "The streets of the town have been full of hungry and half-naked beggars of whom about 15 die each day of starvation and typhus cases among the people have been numerous." The book's review in Middle Eastern Studies, a refereed, peer reviewed journal, might also be of interest. [8]
Alarmed at the lamentable conditions in Iran, in the fall of 1943 The White House had dispatched to Iran Lieutenant-General Patrick J. Hurley, an advisor to President Franklin Roosevelt. Upon his return, Hurley had called on Assistant Secretary of State, Adolph Berle, on October 5, 1943. Berle's report, given in Majd (608-609), includes the following:
Sir Reader Bullard was the British Minister in Tehran. Berle's report on his meeting with General Patrick Hurley includes the following statement (Majd, 609-610):
The claim that German activity had caused famine in WWI is obviously false. But his prediction about the famine death toll in WWII proved to be accurate: 3-4 million, about a quarter of Iran's 1940 population perished to starvation and disease. (Majd, 689-690) The WP article's statement that "The Iranian Famine of 1942-1943 refers to a period of major starvation that took place in Iran," is, contrary to your claim, completely justified. Moretonian ( talk) 18:11, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Majd's claims of 3-4 million fatalities have been repeatedly removed from the article for reasons like "not been reliably published". I have no horse in this race and if anything agree that figure sounds implausible, but Mohammad Gholi Majd is clearly notable enough a historian to have his own page and the Journal of Iranian Islamic Period History is also an actual journal published by the University of Tabriz, not some random blog, so IMHO this passes WP:RS. It would be nice to see some other estimates of the death toll though for comparison, to avoid giving this undue weight. Jpatokal ( talk) 06:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
"to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article ... The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance."Majd's estimates do not satisfy this criteria because they are not uncontroversial,
"key facts"to be presented without qualification.
"Iran under Allied Occupation in World War II: Bridge to Victory & Land of Famine" (University Press of America, 2016), according to Worldcat.org, is held by 1070 academic libraries worldwide, including Library of Congress. Library of Congress does not carry "self-published" works. As to being "print on demand", today practically all academic books fall under that category. With new printing technology, publishers can set their printing to actual demand instead of printing a large initial batch and carrying it for an extended period. They save money on printing and storage costs. University Press of America (UPA) according to its Wiki page "was an academic imprint of the Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group that specialized in the publication of scholarly works." It was established in 1975 and published nearly 10,000 titles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.89.114 ( talk) 16:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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It is requested that an image or photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Iran may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 8 December 2019. The result of the discussion was keep. |
For example, why did you remove this part: Mohammad Gholi Majd, on the other hand, concluded that three to four million Iranians died of disease and starvation during the Allied occupation.
This article is based on Mohammad Gholi Majd's book. It is cited in sources in the current article. Majd, Mohammad Gholi (2016). Iran Under Allied Occupation In World War II: The Bridge to Victory & A Land of Famine. University Press of America. ISBN 978-0761867388.
Why did you remove his conclusion from this article?
Please can someone put it back in, and make sure whoever was responsible for removing it will never be allowed to touch this article again. A lot of stuff has been removed from this article to white-wash this British-led genocide against the Iranian people.
I'd also like to know who tried to delete this article in December 2019.
In the current WP article it is stated that according to Cormac O Grada, the number of people who died in the WWII Iran famine in unknown, but it was "probably modest." The source appears to be a 2019 working paper by O Grada. [1] In his working paper O Grada cites Julian Bharier's 1968 article (p. 277) as his source. [2]
There is nothing in Bharier's article to justify O Grada to cite it as a source for his claim that the Iran death toll was "probably modest." Bharier's article does not contain anything on the WWI and WWII Iran famines, not even a mention. Moreover, the article is marred by some gross factual inaccuracies, such as the claim that the period 1921-1925 was one of "civil war and famine," a totally inaccurate claim. In short, neither Bharier nor O Grada can be considered a reliable source and should be dropped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moretonian ( talk • contribs) 16:38, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
"These years were years of civil war, famine and little evidence of industrial, transportation or agricultural progress. There is no reason to believe, therefore, that the rate of population growth made any substantial increase in these years."is actually 1919-1925: Bharier refers to
"the growth rate of 0.75% estimated by the widely-travelled Schindler for the years 1875-1910, and extended to 1919 on the basis of a British government study"and states that
"the gap 1920–25 is plugged by extending Schindler's growth rate [0.75% for 1919] to the latter date [i.e., 1925]."Bharier's statement that there is
"little evidence of industrial, transportation or agricultural progress"during these years is not controversial and further supported by the observation that
"1926 is the year in which trucks were first used to transport agricultural crops from surplus areas to famine regions."While Bharier does not directly address the impact of World War II on Iran except in footnote 20 (
"1946 is the first year after World War II when Iran began to find its feet again after the Allied occupation, and with the Allied funds accumulated during the war."), Ó Gráda may have inferred that excess deaths were likely modest based on the 2% population growth rate for 1942–1945 posited by Iran's Civil Registration Office (C.R.O.), which (if accepted) is higher than the average population growth rate for the period 1926–1946 estimated by Amani:
"Amani has suggested a rate of 1.5% between 1926 and 1946—a rate which is in conformity with knowledge of the population structure in 1956. The C.R.O. rate of 2.0% for 1942–45 does not, of course, invalidate Amani's rate, which is an average ... "In any case, the main problem with this article is that few, if any, reliable sources substantiate the core claim that
"The Iranian famine of 1942–1943 refers to a period of major starvation that took place in Iran ... "; reliable sources tend to briefly allude to World War II imposing additional hardships on Iran's population in passing, without suggesting any sort of estimate, whereas a single unreliable self-published source known for wild exaggerations (Majd) has made sweeping claims that there was
"a period of major starvation"resulting in millions of deaths (amounting to more than a fifth of Iran's 1942 population as estimated by Bharier). If anything, this article should probably be deleted due to a lack of sourcing. TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 20:08, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
"the obvious conclusion drawn by Majd ... "If it's that obvious, hopefully more reliable sources will catch on soon and we can update the article accordingly! TheTimesAreAChanging ( talk) 06:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
TheTimesAreAChanging. Your false characterization of the WWII Iran famine as "putative" needs to be refuted. For instance, in the WP article the following is stated: "During the final months of 1942 and in 1943, the streets of Kermanshah were full of semi-naked and hungry people with fifteen death attributed to hunger and poverty occurring every day. In February 1943, typhus broke out in the city and the hospital closed down because of widespread infection among doctors and staff." The cited source is Iran Press Digest, 1985. Majd (2016, p. 554) [7] also quotes from a British intelligence report on conditions in Kermanshah for the week of March 13-20, 1943: "The streets of the town have been full of hungry and half-naked beggars of whom about 15 die each day of starvation and typhus cases among the people have been numerous." The book's review in Middle Eastern Studies, a refereed, peer reviewed journal, might also be of interest. [8]
Alarmed at the lamentable conditions in Iran, in the fall of 1943 The White House had dispatched to Iran Lieutenant-General Patrick J. Hurley, an advisor to President Franklin Roosevelt. Upon his return, Hurley had called on Assistant Secretary of State, Adolph Berle, on October 5, 1943. Berle's report, given in Majd (608-609), includes the following:
Sir Reader Bullard was the British Minister in Tehran. Berle's report on his meeting with General Patrick Hurley includes the following statement (Majd, 609-610):
The claim that German activity had caused famine in WWI is obviously false. But his prediction about the famine death toll in WWII proved to be accurate: 3-4 million, about a quarter of Iran's 1940 population perished to starvation and disease. (Majd, 689-690) The WP article's statement that "The Iranian Famine of 1942-1943 refers to a period of major starvation that took place in Iran," is, contrary to your claim, completely justified. Moretonian ( talk) 18:11, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Majd's claims of 3-4 million fatalities have been repeatedly removed from the article for reasons like "not been reliably published". I have no horse in this race and if anything agree that figure sounds implausible, but Mohammad Gholi Majd is clearly notable enough a historian to have his own page and the Journal of Iranian Islamic Period History is also an actual journal published by the University of Tabriz, not some random blog, so IMHO this passes WP:RS. It would be nice to see some other estimates of the death toll though for comparison, to avoid giving this undue weight. Jpatokal ( talk) 06:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
"to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article ... The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance."Majd's estimates do not satisfy this criteria because they are not uncontroversial,
"key facts"to be presented without qualification.
"Iran under Allied Occupation in World War II: Bridge to Victory & Land of Famine" (University Press of America, 2016), according to Worldcat.org, is held by 1070 academic libraries worldwide, including Library of Congress. Library of Congress does not carry "self-published" works. As to being "print on demand", today practically all academic books fall under that category. With new printing technology, publishers can set their printing to actual demand instead of printing a large initial batch and carrying it for an extended period. They save money on printing and storage costs. University Press of America (UPA) according to its Wiki page "was an academic imprint of the Rowman & Littlefield Publishing Group that specialized in the publication of scholarly works." It was established in 1975 and published nearly 10,000 titles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.89.114 ( talk) 16:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)