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This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Guideline for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples terminology Be conscious of the unique, diverse and distinct identities of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and understand the use of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples is as a collective name. Collective names used to describe Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples:
Although "Indigenous Australians" is in common use, and is used to encompass both Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islander people, many First Nations Australians feel the term diminishes their identity and should be avoided; however, where the word "Indigenous" forms part of an acronym to describe entities, organisations, or government departments the use is acceptable. When used, the words Indigenous, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, First Nations, First Peoples, and First Australians are capitalised. Note: Never use the collective name "Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander" peoples as it misrepresents the identity of Torres Strait Islander peoples as not being the original inhabitants of islands in the Torres Strait. Self-identifying terms:
This is not an exhaustive list Language that can be discriminatory or offensive and should be avoided:
This is not an exhaustive list Note: It is acceptable to use abbreviations in your communications when they form part of an acronym, a web address or an organisation (e.g. AIATSIS, NAIDOC, www.atsi.org.au). Using an acronym or abbreviation to describe a race of people can be offensive and discriminatory. For further information, please refer to: Terminology can change over time and, where possible, it is best practice to find out what the preferred term is from the respective Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander group or individual you are referring to. For further guidance, please see the Australian Government Style Guide |
Hey All,
I've seen that this has been discussed before with no real resolution, I have created a temple Template:First Nations Australians which is based on Australian Government Style Manual [5] and a couple of other sources, I have also added it to this page. According to the style guide 'First Nations Australians' is now the preferred term over 'Indigenous', I feel like Wikipedia should also reflect this change. I have already made this change on Racism in Australia and Institutional racism § Australia. If anyone else would like to help with either the template, or changing 'Indigenous' to 'First Nations', 'First Australians', 'First people', etc. that would be great.
Thanks,
AverageFraud ( talk) 07:25, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Disputed text: Phylogenetic data suggests that an early initial eastern lineage (ENA) trifurcated somewhere in South Asia, and gave rise to Australasians (Oceanians), the indigenous South Asians/Andamanese, and the East/Southeast Asian lineage including the ancestors of Native Americans
A possible mini edit might be: Phylogenetic data based on the single dispersal Out of Africa theory suggests that an early initial eastern lineage (ENA) trifurcated and gave rise to Australasians (Oceanians), the Andamanese, and the East/Southeast Asian lineage including the ancestors of Native Americans
Ideally the multiple dispersals out of africa theory could be mentioned as well.
This sentence seems to be scattered across many Wikipedia pages, added around August/September 2022. They mostly say quite similar statements "Phylogenetic data ... East Eurasians... trifurcated... South Asia...indigenous South Asians". And they tend to list the Yang paper as a reference. [1]
The issue is that the idea of trifurcation seems to come from a David Reich "single dispersal" out of Africa theory. Where he didn't mention South Asia as the place of trifurcation. And he didn't mention that one of the trifurcated lines was "indigenous South Asians" or AASI (Ancient Ancestral South Indians), what he did mention was Onge. Which is not the same. Refer to Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia [2]
Whereas the Yang paper presents both the single and multiple dispersals out of Africa theories. And while viewing Fig 1, could seem as if a type of trifurcation visually is situated in South Asia, but the caption clearly cautions: "The tree diagram shows divergence patterns and is not meant to depict migration routes from the branches or geographic origins of ancestral populations from the internal nodes".
The trifurcation appears to be more likely in South East Asia rather than India. [3]
One of the users that seemed to have added a few of these trifurcation sentences on a few pages: 2A10:1FC0:1:0:0:0:3657:2D30 [4], Bharat99x2, 93.180.134.125 Sausage_Link_of_High_Rule — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aufumy ( talk • contribs) 06:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
"Taken together with a lower bound of the final settlement of Sahul at 37 ka (the date of the deepest population splits estimated by Malaspinas et al. 2016), it is reasonable to describe Papuans as either an almost even mixture between East Asians and a lineage basal to West and East Asians occurred sometimes between 45 and 38 ka, or as a sister lineage of East Asians with or without a minor basal OoA or xOoA contribution. We here chose to parsimoniously describe Papuans as a simple sister group of Tianyuan, cautioning that this may be just one out of six equifinal possibilities."
"The split time for European and East African populations (57–76 kya) was again estimated to be somewhat more recent than that for East Asia and Africa (73–88 kya), and significantly more recent than that between Australo-Melanesians and Africa (87–119 kya) even after accounting for Denisovan introgression into the ancestors of Australo-Melanesians."
thus were best explained as originating from an earlier dispersal of modern humans out of Africa [56]. Though an earlier dispersal may be partially represented in the genomes of Australasians, the main pattern observed in their genomes indicates a shared evolutionary history with populations widespread today in much of the eastern regions of Asia.
According to Chaubey and Endicott (2013), overall, the Andamanese are more closely related to Southeast Asians and East Asians than they are to present-day South Asians.[30] according to Yelmen et al. 2019, certain South Indian tribal groups are a better proxy for Ancient Ancestral South Asian (AASI) ancestry than the Andamanese Onge are.[31]
Founder ages of M lineages in India are significantly younger than those in East Asia, Southeast Asia and Near Oceania.
The existence of a northern route, previously proposed for the mtDNA macrohaplogroup N, is confirmed here for the macrohaplogroup M. Both mtDNA macrolineages seem to have differentiated in South East Asia from ancestral L3 lineages.
Some of this evidence is in light of autosomal DNA studies that have indicated Southeast Asia was settled by multiple waves of peoples, the first most related ancestrally to modern day groups such as the Onge and the second more closely related ancestrally to modern day East Asians.
Bulbeck (2013) shows the Andamanese maternal mtDNA is entirely mitochondrial Haplogroup M.
In a simple model of gradual human expansion from Africa to Asia and Oceania without subsequent continental-scale reshaping, we would expect the initial divergences in the Y-chromosomal phylogeny to have occurred in geographical locations close to Africa, and the present-day Y-chromosomal phylogeography to reflect this history by showing the presence of the early-diverging lineages within C, D and FT now being located geographically in Central/West Asia (Fig. 3a), with lower lineage diversity further east. In stark contrast, the observed distributions of these lineages all lie further to the east, suggesting that a simple model of this kind cannot explain the observed present-day data
Over the past decade or so, some analysts have suggested a more complex series of events beginning well before 50–55 ka
We conclude that the case for an AMH expansion across the SCS arc >50 ka remains weak. More compelling evidence from the human fossil record, identification of genetic signals of a >50-ka Sahul population, or support from a well-dated archaeological site in Sahul would change this picture.
Opponents of an early migration into Australia and Oceania assert that if an early migration had taken place before AMH spread into Eurasia, then we would not expect to see evidence of Neanderthal admixture in these genomes given our current understanding of the Neanderthal geographic range.118,153 A conciliatory explanation for the fact that Australo-Melanesians have similar levels of Neanderthal admixture as other non-African populations has been proposed by Weaver,155 who has speculated that the Neanderthal genetic component present in Australasians may be the result of introgression from another group that was in direct contact with Neanderthals.109,125,156,157
they examined haplotypes in Papuans associated with a deeper divergence and found that 2% of the haplotypes in Papuan genomes could not be explained by Denisovan admixture or shared origins with mainland Eurasians, and thus were best explained as originating from an earlier dispersal of modern humans out of Africa [56].
Aufumy ( talk) 19:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)The split time for European and East African populations (57–76 kya) was again estimated to be somewhat more recent than that for East Asia and Africa (73–88 kya), and significantly more recent than that between Australo-Melanesians and Africa (87–119 kya) even after accounting for Denisovan introgression into the ancestors of Australo-Melanesians.
References
I propose merging Aboriginal Australians into Indigenous Australians. The only difference between them is Torres Strait Islanders so that the problem of WP:REDUNDANT exists, and a merger would not cause any article-size or weighting problems in Indigenous Australians. John Smith Ri ( talk) 06:20, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 09:27, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Why indigenous australians refers to both aboriginal and torres strait islanders in general? I dont have any idea torres strait islander is such little population but significant australians. 2404:8000:1027:D5FD:CCA9:4FA5:4C8D:A8A2 ( talk) 01:34, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Indigenous Australians article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9Auto-archiving period: 28 days |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Guideline for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples terminology Be conscious of the unique, diverse and distinct identities of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and understand the use of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples is as a collective name. Collective names used to describe Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples:
Although "Indigenous Australians" is in common use, and is used to encompass both Aboriginal people and Torres Strait Islander people, many First Nations Australians feel the term diminishes their identity and should be avoided; however, where the word "Indigenous" forms part of an acronym to describe entities, organisations, or government departments the use is acceptable. When used, the words Indigenous, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, First Nations, First Peoples, and First Australians are capitalised. Note: Never use the collective name "Indigenous and Torres Strait Islander" peoples as it misrepresents the identity of Torres Strait Islander peoples as not being the original inhabitants of islands in the Torres Strait. Self-identifying terms:
This is not an exhaustive list Language that can be discriminatory or offensive and should be avoided:
This is not an exhaustive list Note: It is acceptable to use abbreviations in your communications when they form part of an acronym, a web address or an organisation (e.g. AIATSIS, NAIDOC, www.atsi.org.au). Using an acronym or abbreviation to describe a race of people can be offensive and discriminatory. For further information, please refer to: Terminology can change over time and, where possible, it is best practice to find out what the preferred term is from the respective Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander group or individual you are referring to. For further guidance, please see the Australian Government Style Guide |
Hey All,
I've seen that this has been discussed before with no real resolution, I have created a temple Template:First Nations Australians which is based on Australian Government Style Manual [5] and a couple of other sources, I have also added it to this page. According to the style guide 'First Nations Australians' is now the preferred term over 'Indigenous', I feel like Wikipedia should also reflect this change. I have already made this change on Racism in Australia and Institutional racism § Australia. If anyone else would like to help with either the template, or changing 'Indigenous' to 'First Nations', 'First Australians', 'First people', etc. that would be great.
Thanks,
AverageFraud ( talk) 07:25, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Disputed text: Phylogenetic data suggests that an early initial eastern lineage (ENA) trifurcated somewhere in South Asia, and gave rise to Australasians (Oceanians), the indigenous South Asians/Andamanese, and the East/Southeast Asian lineage including the ancestors of Native Americans
A possible mini edit might be: Phylogenetic data based on the single dispersal Out of Africa theory suggests that an early initial eastern lineage (ENA) trifurcated and gave rise to Australasians (Oceanians), the Andamanese, and the East/Southeast Asian lineage including the ancestors of Native Americans
Ideally the multiple dispersals out of africa theory could be mentioned as well.
This sentence seems to be scattered across many Wikipedia pages, added around August/September 2022. They mostly say quite similar statements "Phylogenetic data ... East Eurasians... trifurcated... South Asia...indigenous South Asians". And they tend to list the Yang paper as a reference. [1]
The issue is that the idea of trifurcation seems to come from a David Reich "single dispersal" out of Africa theory. Where he didn't mention South Asia as the place of trifurcation. And he didn't mention that one of the trifurcated lines was "indigenous South Asians" or AASI (Ancient Ancestral South Indians), what he did mention was Onge. Which is not the same. Refer to Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia [2]
Whereas the Yang paper presents both the single and multiple dispersals out of Africa theories. And while viewing Fig 1, could seem as if a type of trifurcation visually is situated in South Asia, but the caption clearly cautions: "The tree diagram shows divergence patterns and is not meant to depict migration routes from the branches or geographic origins of ancestral populations from the internal nodes".
The trifurcation appears to be more likely in South East Asia rather than India. [3]
One of the users that seemed to have added a few of these trifurcation sentences on a few pages: 2A10:1FC0:1:0:0:0:3657:2D30 [4], Bharat99x2, 93.180.134.125 Sausage_Link_of_High_Rule — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aufumy ( talk • contribs) 06:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
"Taken together with a lower bound of the final settlement of Sahul at 37 ka (the date of the deepest population splits estimated by Malaspinas et al. 2016), it is reasonable to describe Papuans as either an almost even mixture between East Asians and a lineage basal to West and East Asians occurred sometimes between 45 and 38 ka, or as a sister lineage of East Asians with or without a minor basal OoA or xOoA contribution. We here chose to parsimoniously describe Papuans as a simple sister group of Tianyuan, cautioning that this may be just one out of six equifinal possibilities."
"The split time for European and East African populations (57–76 kya) was again estimated to be somewhat more recent than that for East Asia and Africa (73–88 kya), and significantly more recent than that between Australo-Melanesians and Africa (87–119 kya) even after accounting for Denisovan introgression into the ancestors of Australo-Melanesians."
thus were best explained as originating from an earlier dispersal of modern humans out of Africa [56]. Though an earlier dispersal may be partially represented in the genomes of Australasians, the main pattern observed in their genomes indicates a shared evolutionary history with populations widespread today in much of the eastern regions of Asia.
According to Chaubey and Endicott (2013), overall, the Andamanese are more closely related to Southeast Asians and East Asians than they are to present-day South Asians.[30] according to Yelmen et al. 2019, certain South Indian tribal groups are a better proxy for Ancient Ancestral South Asian (AASI) ancestry than the Andamanese Onge are.[31]
Founder ages of M lineages in India are significantly younger than those in East Asia, Southeast Asia and Near Oceania.
The existence of a northern route, previously proposed for the mtDNA macrohaplogroup N, is confirmed here for the macrohaplogroup M. Both mtDNA macrolineages seem to have differentiated in South East Asia from ancestral L3 lineages.
Some of this evidence is in light of autosomal DNA studies that have indicated Southeast Asia was settled by multiple waves of peoples, the first most related ancestrally to modern day groups such as the Onge and the second more closely related ancestrally to modern day East Asians.
Bulbeck (2013) shows the Andamanese maternal mtDNA is entirely mitochondrial Haplogroup M.
In a simple model of gradual human expansion from Africa to Asia and Oceania without subsequent continental-scale reshaping, we would expect the initial divergences in the Y-chromosomal phylogeny to have occurred in geographical locations close to Africa, and the present-day Y-chromosomal phylogeography to reflect this history by showing the presence of the early-diverging lineages within C, D and FT now being located geographically in Central/West Asia (Fig. 3a), with lower lineage diversity further east. In stark contrast, the observed distributions of these lineages all lie further to the east, suggesting that a simple model of this kind cannot explain the observed present-day data
Over the past decade or so, some analysts have suggested a more complex series of events beginning well before 50–55 ka
We conclude that the case for an AMH expansion across the SCS arc >50 ka remains weak. More compelling evidence from the human fossil record, identification of genetic signals of a >50-ka Sahul population, or support from a well-dated archaeological site in Sahul would change this picture.
Opponents of an early migration into Australia and Oceania assert that if an early migration had taken place before AMH spread into Eurasia, then we would not expect to see evidence of Neanderthal admixture in these genomes given our current understanding of the Neanderthal geographic range.118,153 A conciliatory explanation for the fact that Australo-Melanesians have similar levels of Neanderthal admixture as other non-African populations has been proposed by Weaver,155 who has speculated that the Neanderthal genetic component present in Australasians may be the result of introgression from another group that was in direct contact with Neanderthals.109,125,156,157
they examined haplotypes in Papuans associated with a deeper divergence and found that 2% of the haplotypes in Papuan genomes could not be explained by Denisovan admixture or shared origins with mainland Eurasians, and thus were best explained as originating from an earlier dispersal of modern humans out of Africa [56].
Aufumy ( talk) 19:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)The split time for European and East African populations (57–76 kya) was again estimated to be somewhat more recent than that for East Asia and Africa (73–88 kya), and significantly more recent than that between Australo-Melanesians and Africa (87–119 kya) even after accounting for Denisovan introgression into the ancestors of Australo-Melanesians.
References
I propose merging Aboriginal Australians into Indigenous Australians. The only difference between them is Torres Strait Islanders so that the problem of WP:REDUNDANT exists, and a merger would not cause any article-size or weighting problems in Indigenous Australians. John Smith Ri ( talk) 06:20, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 09:27, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Why indigenous australians refers to both aboriginal and torres strait islanders in general? I dont have any idea torres strait islander is such little population but significant australians. 2404:8000:1027:D5FD:CCA9:4FA5:4C8D:A8A2 ( talk) 01:34, 22 October 2023 (UTC)