Illyrian history was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 15 December 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Illyria. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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IP 70.69.175.56 seems to have added this fragment to the article both in Illyrian kingdom and in "In the Bible". It's not related to the Illyrian region, has typoes and throws in some strange uncited claims, so I moved it from the article to here and added back the periods in the sentences just before the additions. Those wiser on the topic can probably figure out what this is all about? Kataja ( talk) 00:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Illyria, is also the name of an ancient mythological high priestess and sorceress of Roman and Greek decent (her myth is speculated by experts to be descended from an older similar figures from ancient Babylonia, Mesopotamia, and as far back as the neolithic era ie the goddess of willendorf ), who stood up during times of crisis against outpouring hoards during battle. she was a lesser know womens activist, who was honored and worshiped my many. until 500-600AD, myths of her were spread all across europe, but were nearly eradicated by Christianity, and Islam, claiming that she was an evil witch and the devil's whore. few remaining artifacts are left that give some clarification of Illyria's myth and power. a few small pieces of pottery, wine jugs, and a few statues, and some written work by Thales, (a goddess worshiper himself) he wrote of her despise of man laying blame where it was not due, saying famously that "[things] are not white or black... but both because nature's both.... the only good or bane is in the heart of the doer" today she is little but an unknown myth, seen many places but recognized rarely. the few people who keep her record, are sparse neo-pagan witch cults, and higher level historians.
Well, I always thought that the article should be under Illyria, but now there are quite a few pages that link to Ancient Illyria. Should we change all those articles to point to Illyria? At the very least we should probably change the links in the History of Albania series. Dori 15:02, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
[ copyvio removed]
Moved this from article. Seems patent nonsense, but if it isn't, rewrite and put back in. Wyllium 23:41, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Quote from the article: "The Albanian transliteration i lirë translates to a free person."
Albanian "i lirë" has nothing to with the Illyrians.
"Lirë" is a term borrowed by the ancestors of the Albanians from Latin "liber"="free". ("b" between the vowels disappears on Latin words borrowed in Albanian, just like in the word "horse" lat. cabalus -> alb. kalë.)
The name of Illyria was used long before the Romans came in the Balkans. Bogdan | Talk 17:41, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
lol "i lirë" means in albanian the free and "i liri" means the free one that word is illyrian and not latin orgin and i think slavs should not write here in this wiki artikels which have to do with albanians because you are politcally motivated and writte here only lies which your goverment told you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dardan207 ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Quote from the article: "This article is about the ancient civilization related to present-day Albania."
I contest that. It seems that Illyrians have nothing to do with Albania, except the teritory.
There is no proof there is any connection. There's a text written in Messapic (Messapians were an Illyrian tribe) that says:
klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi [1]
It has no resemblence whatsover with today's Albanian. We should look for the ancestors of Albanians in Dacia, Moesia or Pannonia. Bogdan | Talk 17:53, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That text proves nothing. The tribe could have used a different dialect or language. Also, although Albanian is thought to have derived from Ilyrian, I seriously doubt you can find anyone who will say that knowing Albanian means knowing Illyrian. In most historical texts it's pretty well accepted that Albanians are descendent of Illyrians. That doesn't mean it's true, but I wouldn't accept a minority opinion, or original research as more authoritative.
Dori |
Talk 15:56, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
It is likely possible that Albanians have Illyrian blood (but no more so than Serbs, Bosnians, or Croats), however it is entirely impossible that the Albanian language derives from Illyrian due to the fact that modern Albanian is a satem language and Illyrian was a centum/kentum language. It is impossible for a satem language to transform into a centum one or vice versa (unless there is a change in its subtrate, which is not the case with Albanian). I agree that there are some historians who believe that Albanian is the descendant of Illyrian, but none of these historians explain how a centum language became a satem one. This has been explained in more depth by some Albanian historians who do not agree with the Illyrian origin of Albanians theory such as Dr. Kaplan Resuli, Dr. Adrian Vebiu, Dr. Fatos Ljubonja. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
209.202.90.87 (
talk •
contribs) 14:50, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Illrians are the present day Albanians........... Here is why Serbs are not the descedants of Illyrians......... SLAVS WHO ARE SERBS CAME INTO BALKANS INTO 7TH CENTURY A.D...... THEY SPEAK SLAVIC LANGUAGE,,,,,,, THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT ILLIRYCUM AS AN INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE,,,,NOT SLAVIC,,,,,SERBS MIGRATED TO BALKANS FORM THE CARPATHE MOUNTAINS OF RUSSIA,,,, SOME SERBS ALSO COME FROM PRESENT DAY IRAN, SIBERIA, AND CAUCUS —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.21.70.73 (
talk •
contribs) 17:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
THE PRESENT DAY SERBIA WAS CALLED SERVIA- WHICH MEANS SERVANT IN LATIN,, THEY CHANGED THE NAME OF SERVIA TO SERBIA AROUND 1934 I BELIEVE,,,,,,,,, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.70.73 ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The slavic people came from the carpatian mountains in the 7th century and they settled in illyrian territories benefiting from the weakness of illyrians tribes. They assimilated illyrian people so that makes them in part illyrian descendents but the similarity of the albanian and illyrian languages along with the grave traditions of illyrians and arberians (predecessors of today albanians in the middle ages) indicate that arberians are descendents of illyrians therefore albanians are descendent of illyrian tribes.
albanians claim nothing by saying they are from illyric descendenc and kosovo became a part of serbia
in 1913 when other countries decided for albanias borders. albanias voice was irrelevant to the major powers of that time in confront with those of serbia and greece becous of their strength in the region they would have been better allies for those powers. More than 80% of kosovo speaks albanian and they call themselves albanians. Serbia lost all rights over kosovo after milloschevics genocid.
Everyone keeps forgeting about events that happened just a decade ago. Albania has no claim for the neighboroughs lands even though 30% of macedonia is albanian and lands in norther greece were once populated by albanians (cameria) but they migrated to southern albania unlike albanians in kosovo who prefered to stay under serbian rule but in their homes.(this information is not related to illyrians but its a response to a statement made above that albania claims kosovo or other neighborough territories)
In a europe growing unified year by year territorial claims of serbians, albanians or other countries are pointless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.240.76 ( talk) 17:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I expanded the list of tribes and I think its so long it should become its own page. Anyone against this idea? freestylefrappe 07:27, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
I removed a number of tribes that were not Illyrian tribes: Maedi were Thracian; Triballi were Thracian; Scordisci were too mixed up with Celtic and Thracian to be considered Illyrian; Paeonians were Paeonians, a distinct ethnicity; Liburni are by most scholars not considered to be real Illyrians; and so on. I'll check the rest later. Decius 10:45, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The List should be a separate page---and be aware that every single tribe listed will be double-checked. Decius 10:49, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Listing the Celtic Boii as an "Illyrian" tribe was a gross display of ignorance or carelessness or both on the part of the lister or his/her source. Decius 11:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I see that someone had listed the Veneti as an Illyrian tribe. Actually, the ancient Venetic language and people are considered distinct from Illyrians (though very probably the languages were related, even closely related, though the close relation of Venetic to Illyrian is very much disputed by scientists). Read this: Venetic language. Read that Venetic sentence. You can see that Venetic was so close to Latin (Italic) that some classify Venetic as an Italic language. If you want to say that the Veneti are the same as Illyri, then you are saying this: the Illyrian language has nothing at all to do with Albanian, and the Illyrian language was in fact close to Latin. You cannot have it both ways. Decius 04:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
User:Freestylefrappe lifted that erroneous list of Illyrian tribes from this website: [2]. The homepage is [3]. This is a pseudo-historic website (a crank site) which is known to be full of untrustworthy information. Next time, instead of just assuming that all those listed are correctly listed, try checking the homepage and doing some extra research. Decius 05:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I really wish people would stop posting the ridiculous tribe list from such a propagandic source.
Confirmied Illyrian tribes are the following from this
source ;
(latinized)
Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, Perrhaebus, Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei,Autariatae, Dardanians, Partheni, Dassaretii, Darsi, Autarieus, Pannonius, Scordiscus, Triballus
These were presented by Appian. Tpilkati 7 July 2005 05:04 (UTC)
If we call the Thesprotians and Mollosians "Illyrian tribes", then we may have to call the Macedonians an "Illyrian tribe". Strabo in his Geography (Book 7.2) writes:
"Among the Thesprotians and Mollosians old women are called Peliai and old men Pelioi, as is also the case among the Macedonians."
---Peliai and Pelioi meant " Pigeons" in ancient Greek, and comes from pelos, 'dark' (PIE *pel-,'pale, gray, dark'). Other similarities are known between the ancient Macedonians and the tribes of ancient Northwestern Greece. It seems to me that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi and the Macedonians were perhaps kin (speaking similar languages or dialects?), perhaps forming a semi-Hellenic branch (or on the other hand, they were just "backward" Hellenes). Unless very strong evidence exists that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi were Illyrian tribes, we should remove them from the list. I removed them from the list for now. Decius 18:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Plutarch has some interesting passages on the Thesprotians and Mollosians in his biography of Pyrrhus. He says that in the language (Dryden translation uses this term) of the country of Epirus, Achilles was known as Aspetos. Plutarch also states that the Mollosian/Thesprotian king Tharrhypas (observe the -rrh- element also found in Macedonian) was "the first" Mollosian/Thesprotian king "who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame for himself." So the same Greek-or-non-Greek ambiguity circles around Mollosians and Thesprotians, as around the Macedonians. Decius 04:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
there are several ancient greek writers that identify the Chanionians, Mollosians and Thesprots as barbarians, and also several old roman historians that do the same, i believe there are links to this in the pages for each tribe and also archeological digs in northern greece and sourthern albania have uncovered objects that are quite different from traditional greek-ware and are quite similar to other objects found in other illyrian dig sites, i have posted a link for that somewhere as well a while back i will try and locate it and post it again back here 67.149.105.34 ( talk) 19:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Jonian
History of the Balkans is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. If you are interested, support the article with your vote. -- Fenice 20:25, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
So who is this magnificent, antediluvian Illyrian king Hyllus, and what classical sources mention him? He's mentioned all over the net (mostly in Wikipedia mirror sites and crank sites), but it is quite mysterious that nowhere is a classical reference given for him. Perseus mentions a number of figures named Hyllus (including Hyllus), but none match the description. --- Decius 05:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia claims that the second Illyrian king we know is Bardyllis, while Albanian Nation History tells how Bardyllis, a digger, won enough advocacy in order to organize a rebellion against Sirra (I wrote it as Albanians do in their books). It is said that Sirra became a king at the end of the fifth century BC, while the revolt took the place in the fourth century BC.
On the other hand Wikipedia tries to make differences between Illyrian tribes, and this is done in purpose to relate modern Albanian state (1/3 of the territory of Ethnic Albania) with the territory inhabited by ‘proper’ Illyrians.
If someone says that ‘illyrian’ – ‘ilir’ (Alb.) doesn’t mean ‘i lirë’ (Albanian free), because it is Latin, I would like to add that the word ‘libero’ may have been used before. Illyrian was an Indo-European language and it is natural to have common or at least similar words with other languages of the family. Një = uno = one = une = eins... or maybe this word, one of the simplest was Latin and then diffused into other languages.
List of Illyrian Tribes by Aleksandar Stipcevic (‘Glli Illiri’, eng. The Illyrians) (only the tribes marked on the map):
Amantini
Andizetes
Ardiei
Atintani
Autariates
Breuci
Bylliones
Chaones
Colapiani
Dalmates
Daorsei
Dardani
Dassaretae
Daunii
Desitiates
Encheleae
Histri
Japodes
Japyges
Jasi
Labeates
Latobici
Liburni
Messapii
Mezei
Molossi
Paeones
Penestae
Parthini
Peucetii
Picentes
Pirustae
Plerei
Scordisci
Serretes
Taulantii
Thesproti
Varciani
Other tribes:
Agrianes
Albanoi * The Yugoslavian censure removed this tribe from the map of A. Stipcevic
Lucanians
Pannoni
Tribali
etc.
Getoar 19:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The Albanians during Hodja regime, deleted any historical information about Greek presence in modern albanian territory. So, they wrote in their school books that the tribes of Molossians, Chaonians and Thesprotians were ...Illyrian. Suppose they wanted to destroy the ancient Greek inscriptions written by these people in the archolochical sites of Butrindo, Appolonia, Dyrrachium or elsewhere in order to support their ideas. Hope these books ,which are a shame for humanity, are now long forgotten. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Alexikoua (
talk •
contribs) 11:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Chaones Molossi are not greek tribes, the origins of these two tribes are very disputable, some ancient historians refer to them as barbarians while others as greek, as i have stated before several inland archeological digs have turned up items of non greek origin, while there are several other sites closer to the sea which are clearly of a greek nature. The most likely explanation at this point is that of hellenization which is quite normal when a lesser developed culture meets a much more advanced one. Jonian ( talk) 02:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
The delineation of ancient Illyria can pose a problem to historians, since before the Roman conquest the Illyrians were not unified into an Illyrian kingdom, and Illyria's borders before Rome are not always clear. For example, the Dalmatae, though classed as an Illyrian tribe by language, were only subject to the kingdom of Illyria for a short time and soon defected during the reign of King Gentius.
Was there or was there NOT a king of Illyria? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.184.151.157 ( talk • contribs) 16:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that the map on this article is of a very low quality as compared to most other maps on Wikipedia now. I request that someone creates a more detailed and accurate map. I'd do it, but the only image program I know how to use is Microsoft Paint. Bifgis 20:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This map must ber cut from oricum/oricius and above to be correct.
"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"
"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."
Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer
Megistias ( talk) 08:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Or this map [7] Megistias ( talk) 15:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This university offers this map of Pre-roman conquest illyria. [8] Megistias ( talk) 17:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Your map shows position of tribes in the western Balkan. Purple area on your map best accords to the territory of the Roman province Illyricum. Illyria was much smaller state in the south. Dalmatae are considered to be Illyrians, that's true, but they were never a part of Illyria state. Also Dalmatia was smaller region in 2nd century BC than nowadays. It was settled not only by Dalmatae. Panoni were never a part of Illyria state. You mix real Illyria state with some non-existing "Illyria" which, according to you, covers all Illyrians!? Zenanarh ( talk) 06:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I just wanne add a website, maybe will help you with some clarification regarding Illyrians
http://www.geocities.com/protoillyrian/index.html
I also wanne mentioned that I noticed many of the Towns and People names will and up with "um" and "ae" if the source is Roman and with "os","es"or "is" if the source is Greek. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Vini78 (
talk •
contribs) 07:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Albanians and Illyrians = No.Slavs and Vlachs=YEs
"The Illyrians, like the Celts and Thracians, dissolved in the sea of latter conquerors, simply for the reason that during the long period of Roman rule they had lost their native culture and were unable to utilize their language to a political life of their own...We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's (Alexiad 4)."
John Wilkes, "The Illyrians", Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, 1992
John Wilkes: "The Illyrians", Oxford Press, 1996:
(1) "..A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro [around Plyevlya and Priyepolye, p.84] and western Serbia [Sanxak]". p.75
(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to moderAlbanians." p.219
(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: - Pannonians are tall and strong, always ready for a fight and to face dangerous but slow-witted." p.219
(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invadors are testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220
(5) "In sum, the destructive impact [of Bosnia-centred theory] on the earlier generalizations regarding Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40
Megistias (
talk) 19:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The following modern countries are on illyrian soil so they take part in the illyrian "heritage".They must be included in all Illyrian projects and since Wilkes points out that among Slavs and the Vlach population of the Areas true illyrian ancestors are found they must be posted and Quoted.This Albanian exclusiveness is arbitrary and irrelevant as most of illyria is part of other countries and other peoples have such ancestors.
ALBANIA (about half of albania)
MONTENEGRO
SERBIA
CROATIA
BOSNIA & HERSEGOVINA
SLOVENIA
HUNGARY
Megistias (
talk) 15:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
i think you are missing greece here, part of northern greece has illyrian inhabitants in it, several archeological digs in what is now norther greece, around Ioanina have turned out objects quite similar to those found in other illyrian dig sites, i do agree however that the albanians do not have exclusivity to illyrians, the only point is that albanians appear to be the only ones that have have a larger illyrian influence in their language and customs than those other countries 67.149.105.34 ( talk) 19:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Jonian
Illyrian (Ilir in albanian) means the free in Albanian.
The Illyrian king Bardyllis name means white star in Albanian.
The province of Dalmatia means "land of sheep" in Albanian.
The city of Ulqinj means "land of wolves" in Albanian.
The Illyrian capitol Lissus (Lis) quite simply means tree in Albanian.
Dardania means land of pears in Albanian
The name oh the illyrian tribe Thesproti means Bringer of sacks (bags) in Albanian
In exception for a few borrowed words from Romance, Turkish and Slavic, Albanian is modern day Illyrian.
Bardhyll, Genc (Gentius in Romance) Agron, Teuta are a few examples of Illyrian names that are still and only used by Albanians.
This obvious affinity can not continue to be denied. Confirm this with an Albanian interpreter or do you wish to keep your eyes closed.
Conclusion: If Serbs where a little bit freindlier to their Albanian neighbours they would gladly explain this long before any misconceptions could be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Durim Durimi ( talk • contribs) using the IP 83.249.217.28 ( talk · contribs) 21:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Here are some quotes from famous Albanian historians;
Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):
When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today's Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.
Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):
After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others." Quote: About the Albanians, Wilkes writes "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."
Wilkes was proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European lineage. Quote: That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are..." Fatos Lubojia - Albanian historian Quote: Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi writes: I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths (About Illyrian & Epirote descent) and courageously accept the scientific truth that they are not whatsoever connected to these ancient peoples. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage."
Quote: Ardian Vebiu Famous Albanian historian writes:
My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism Megistias ( talk) 13:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The articles on albania and illyrians related history should all mention that names were constructed and added. They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.
On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today
ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 it is stated
From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157. Megistias ( talk) 22:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The above i stated is sourced and obviously a fact.You offer no sources.You must provide sources for names and prove with sources again that they are of Illyrian origin. Megistias ( talk) 13:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
How about you bring some sources and not only express your dislike Megistias ( talk) 13:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Then you have nothing to offer here.Your brain isnt a source and again you persistence isnt one as well.You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts Megistias ( talk) 13:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
You should speak with sources.I have offered mine and i expect yours. Megistias ( talk) 21:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
i would remind you the above "Please, keep in mind that per our verifiability policy "[t]he threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." To be included in the article, the claim of a close affinity between the Illyrian & Albanian languages would need to be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Otherwise, such content would constitute original research on our part. " Megistias ( talk) 22:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
They we're also Illyrians.You must correct the Picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.125.52 ( talk) 11:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
this article is not true. the editor dont mention the albanians which are the direct discendents of illyrians. this is not an historical article but an article written for nationalistic reasons —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tolaci ( talk • contribs) 06:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
my 2 cents
i see a lot of discussions about the illyrians and albanians, it is true that there is no proof of a connection between the two people however after trying to explain the existence of albanians we see that the best possibility is still that they derive from illyrians or otherwise they just sprang out of the ground. There is a lot of discussions about the illyrians and they geographical possitioning but that will be to no avail, the illyrians were a large conglomerate and they may have stretched over a large area, however from archeological findings we see that they main are is from modern day Slovenia to the bay of Arta in Greece. There are several ancient greek writers who identify the Molosian and Chaonians and Thesprots as not greek, however since the illyrians were not particularly advanced in culture they very fast and easily assimilated the more advanced greek culture which was made easier by the greek colonies that were created in the ionian coast were these tribes lived and the illyrians did give their contribution with the incorporation of their main deity the sun god into greek myth. As for the Ventians that i saw mentioned here it a lot more possible that they were a latin tribe and not illyrian. There is also a lot of discussion about the albanian language and illyrian language, there are words in both languages which cannot be either of greek, latin or slavic orygin and the issue is that even though some words in albanian can have similarities with neighbouring lands there is no way to find out who borrowed whose and there is actually a trail which can help a little in the languages, old illyrian is very rare but however some words pop up here and there every 2-300 years, from roman times then in byzantine libraries, then in church manuscripts, then in crusader notes and finally the more knows ones in the 1400s. However i do agree that none of this proves that the albanians are descended of the illiryans but there is a lot mor connections between the 2 than with ani other balkan people atm.
again this is my 2 cents and sorry i did not provide the source of my info(too lazy atm) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.249.238.183 (
talk) 06:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
First i would like to point out one thing, the Pelasgs are never in any historical work portrayed as greeks and they were a differnt branch of the indo-european people which was later assimilated by the 3 main settlers of the balkas the greeks, the illyrians and the thracian
As to the thracian ancestry of the albanian language several works by linguist point that the albanian language has a lot more in common with ancient illyrian e.x
Hans Eric Tunman- Professor at University of Hales " A history of Eastern Europe"
Johan George Von Han- Professor at University of Heidelberg "Albanian Studies"
Franc Bopp- Professor at University of Berlin "On the ways of ancient greek, sanskrit persian and german"
Gustav Mayer- Proffesor at University of Grass " The albanian language within the indo-european family"
Holger Pedersen- Professor at University of Copenhagen "The study of balkan languages"
All of the preceding state that the albanian language can only be properly explained as a remainder and heavily infiltrated version of an illyrian dialect and there are a lot more works out there
As per the tribes of epirus, there are several greek and roman historians which have called them non-greeks, such as
Herodotus- Calls the people of epirus as barabrians
Thucydides refers to the epiriots in his works as the "thousand barbarians" which he then elaborates as the Chaonians and their neighbours
Plint the Old: Writes that the chaons and the molossians were bucolic people somewhat wild and spoke a differnt language than their neighbours to the south. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.249.238.183 ( talk) 17:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Of course you have, and i have as well and i can offer a lot more if needed, however to make the long story short, the modern albanian people live in an area historically inhabited by illyrian tribes, their language is a unique branch of the indo-europian language, the language and the people can be traced throught the centuries although with some significant holes so after checking all other possibles alternatives we are left with the illyrians as the most viable one and the one with more connections, i am not saying that the illirans are directly the grandfathers of albanians as the modern greeks are not the sons of old greeks but through historical studies we find connections between the people and there is absolutely no way for any real historian to deny that fact —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.249.238.183 ( talk) 20:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I am thinking on starting a wikiproject Illyria
I would like to know if users support this and if anyone is ready help
thank you--
Cra
del 19:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone remove last edit [14] Megistias ( talk) 12:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Illirian as Albanians
A big part of scholars consider the Illyrians as the ancestors of the modern Albanians.
this is what i added ( diff.)
A verifibly of this, it can be checked the Encarta Encyclopedia, online or off-line ("people of Indo-European stock who are considered ancestors of modern Albanians")
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564668/Illyria.html
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861620183/Illyrian.html
Encyclopedia britannica online or book editions ("illyrian, Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language")
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9042146/Illyrian-language
or other websites of history like this ("Most historians of the Balkans believe the Albanian people are in large part descendants of the ancient Illyrians")
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_albaniaancient.htm
Or infinite other internet sources or websites, (i just maked a search of 5 minutes)
Books and scholarship aswell is full of examples of scholars supporting this connection.
Herman Kinder and Werner Hilgemann, The Anchor Atlas of World History, 1, New York, 1974, 90, 94;
and most big known scholars valid supporters of this connection:
Holger Pedersen ( http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9058921/Holger-Pedersen)
Paul Kretcmer (university of vienna)
Hugo Schuchardt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Schuchardt
http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-528358/Hugo-Schuchardt
"Albanesisches und Romanisches zu Miklosich's Albanesisschen"
Gustav Mayer ("Albanesiche Studien")
Teodor Mommsen ("Romische Geschichte")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen
Jakob Fallmerayer ("Das albanesische element in Griechenland")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Philipp_Fallmerayer
Cabej E. 1976, page 22, <<The albanian language has elements of the illyrian elements>> Book: "Le Probleme du territorie de la formation de la langue albanaise"
This was just some names i had here in my hands momentanely, the list is still long.
But i suppose even if i bring only the encyclopedia britannica source, it should be ok, so all the other links are just a support for the users that are not informet about the theoryes.
Wikipedia rules:
in according to the rules of wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
"Wikipedia articles should cover all major and significant-minority views that have been published by reliable sources"
1) is the britannica a reliable and verifiable source? i suppose yes
2) can i write this point of view of scholarship? in according to the rules of Wikipedia, yes
3) It is related? yes
4) this is to much for an article in wikipedia? no, wikipedia rules don't denie me to write more material if i bring reliable sources.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 11:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
if necessary, i will begin a dispute resolution, if i have material in addiction of the current one, no-where in wikipedia is written there is a limit of sections.
respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 11:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, if you have valid rules of wikipedia that denie me to write this, bring them forward.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 12:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, this is a enrichment of the article, and it is largely sourced, and it is related, if this connection is cited in the encyclopedies this mean of course a rilevant part of scholars support this conenction.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 12:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Your insistence make me consider this a intentional trying of distorsion of the historical and modern facts, of course i'm not here to make accusations, but this is becoming self-evident
respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 12:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
i felt necessary to contact the Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think does not matter where i come from, but does matter if my sources are right or not, so i propose the same article with the title "Illyrian Ethnicity" as an enrichment, also in the "pelasgian" article it is sayd the ethnicity theoryes, and even in a respectable encyclopedia as encarta, in the name "illyria" in the third line it is said what i propose ( http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564668/Illyria.html), so why i can't anrich the article?
PelasgicMoon ( talk) 19:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
so why in the article the section of shakspeare don't go in the "shakspeare" article?
simply because it is a relation, as in this case
... PelasgicMoon ( talk) 20:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I felt opportune to open a request for arbitration.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 23:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised how modern greeks are still today trying to delete the historical facts
I suppose this is a well-organized complaint against the history of albania, or simply a greek mafia in wikipedia.
Sources? Yes i have, all users are working in Illyria, Illyrians, history of Albania, etc etc articles are Greek. This is sourced!
Illyrians seem to be the modern Albanians, this is accepted by most of the scholars. Here in Wikipedia I did not read this, so i went in the talk pages, and I saw where the users that are working in the article come from...
You can change the articles in Wikipedia, but you can't change history.
I don't want to begin conversations here as I saw someone already tryed in a civil way, PelasgicMoon stop talking with Greeks, you're just losing your time, they accused you to be nationalist, to bring falisfied sources, since you entered they had uncivil behaviour with you just because you proposed your idea... these are greeks... they are here for too much times before you, so administrators listen to them, not you, That's it.
Ehi greeks, what you gonna do now, delete my post? I would not be impressed...
and i'm not Albanian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.50.190 ( talk • contribs) 12:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
edit conflickt? who deleted the text written by user 77.100 or something like that?
it was written:
"I am surprised how modern greeks are still today trying to delete the historical facts
I suppose this is a well-organized complaint against the history of albania, or simply a greek mafia in wikipedia.
sources? yes i have, all users are working in the illyria, illyrians, history of albania, etj etj articles are greeks. This is sourced!
Illyrians seems to be the modern albanians, this is accepted by most of the scholars. Here in wikipedia i did not read this, so i went in the talk pages, and i saw where comes from the users that are working in the article...
You can change the articles in wikipedia, but you can't change the history
I don't want to begin conversations here as i saw someone already tryed in a civil way, PelasgicMoon stop talking with greeks, you're just losing your time, they accused you to be nationalist, to bring falisfied sources, since you entered they had uncivil behaviour with you just because you proposed your idea... these are greeks... they are here for too much times before you, so administrators listen them, not you, That's it.
Ehi greeks, what you gonna do now, delete my post? i would not be impressed...
and i'm not albanian"''Italic text
someone had understood that? PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
i did not fill nothing, Megistias
look at this diff
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Illyria&diff=199583674&oldid=199583346
i just said "someone had understood this?"
PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, you have sources or not this message was mine? or just your personal guess? please stop accusing me irrilevantly and be civilized.
respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm Frenkalbatros, ilirian are not albanians. even if the language is similar , megistias says the truth, i am fierce of being Albanian but is useless to try bogus theories , (sorry for my language but i am albanian) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenkalbatros ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
This is crazy. There is a dispute to whether Albanians are descendants of Ilirians, but there are also a lot of scholars that support the idea. On the other hand it is much harder to give facts that Albanians are not Ilirians than contrary. I think the article should have a source stating that there is a number of scholars and theories about the connection of Albanians and Ilirians. I read that someone posted some links to support these addition. We should let the readers decide whether the Enciclopedia Britanica and Encarta are strong sources, and not let some user (who is obviously POV) here teach us about the value of those encyclopedias. -- Lilonius ( talk) 21:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Illyria or Illyricum or both? Why a map of Illyricum in info box of Illyria??? Zenanarh ( talk) 06:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Albanian are the descedents of Ilirians and if you learn the history you can see beter the situation.Please don't put in this site not real facts becouse this could make you lose the credibility and if you are Wikipedia=enciclopedia please stay in the facts.You have to talk with real profesors,to see maby some muses,and to read some boks.This is an advise,and I know who right this don't know Albania and her History,but you can tray to find it out.This is not a fight,I don't wont to see this,the History is a fact,this hapent,that's all.But the greks allready take a peace of Albania in the Second Wor,they wont more...they kill allready in off,they dosen't have to kill our History to.
Please be impartial when you right the History.Thank you.By —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.123.146.108 ( talk) 21:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
How about Iliria the Albanian spelling of the topic. So many people on here discredit, the widely held view may i add, that Albanians are the modern ancestors of the Illyrians. It's a lot of bullshit to be honest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.100.249 ( talk) 23:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I will keep editing it, putting the Albanian spelling first, how it should be. Whoever deleted it should be banned.
Realmadrid123 (
talk) 16:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know what do you think of this text in the Illyria and Illyrians articles (in green)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Illyrians&action=edit&undoafter=290146216&undo=290156658
I've provided a lot of information backed up by books with exact page numbers, after a long research with several historians. I think that the section should remain in those articles. -- Jurgenalbanian ( talk) 20:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Since you are smarter then historians,then why don't you provide us with examples about how it is "poorly written" or "unorganized",and as about the references,you have the books,you have even the number of pages where the article is written,the fact that you don't read,or that you don't have any worthy library in your neighbourhood matters me not!-- Jurgenalbanian ( talk) 23:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
With what you wrote,you just proved that you did not read a thing about the article.Let me give you some refferences...(all of them are written at the article):
- The first known occurance of the word Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to he 2nd century BC, in the History of the World written by Polybius, whom mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.
- In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses
- In the 2nd century , 130 AD, Ptolemy Claudius, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës) ), from which the Albanians were later on to be identified by the world.. Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.
-Albani (Albanoi), tribe in ancient Illyria, from Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849
- In the south of Albania is a city called Berat which in ancient times was called Antipatrea and by the Romans Albanorum Oppidium which means the Fortress of the Albanians
- Approximately a millennium later, some Byzantine writers used the words "Albanon" and "Arbanon" to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angevine rulers, in the 13th century, the names "Albania" and "Albanenses" indicated the whole country and all the population, as is demonstrated by the works of many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdani.
-Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon from the daughter of Emperor Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118), Anna Comnena which describes in her account (Alexiad 4 which is a book written around the year 1148 ) of the troubles in that region caused by the Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages....
Other Ref:
1. A. Stipcevic 1989 'Iliri: povijest, zivot, kultura'.
2. Mark Tirta 2004 'Mytholgy between Albanians'
3. Manfred Lurker 2004 'The Routledge dictionary of Gods and Godesses, Devils and Demons'
I just gave you about 10-11 books,if you can't find neither of these in your neighbourhoods library,then you can go and fully read the article where you can find about twice or triple more refferences then the ones I just wrote,and when you oppose,give me facts and refferences,not your own suppositions!-- Jurgen talk 20:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 17:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
And stop accusing me for nationalism,none of the writers above is albanian except "Mark Tirta",who wrote his book with the help of a greek historian!-- Jurgen talk 20:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 17:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Since nobody could oppose, I assume it's time to post this study in the article. AlboSoldier ( talk) 20:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
-This study and these resources provided in here have been ignored long enough by the people who seem incapable of providing any reason for them not to be implemented, and who seem to keep writing in other sections of this article, except this one. If I don't get any valid reasons on why this study was never implemented in the article, while there was never provided the reason in not doing so, by the end of the week, then I'll be moving it to the Main Article. People that say Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians and vice-versa, should give some real arguments and resources about this, as the albanians seem to have done, and not just troll in here, as it is not a forum, it's the discussion page of an enciclopedia, so please be more serious. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
82.137.72.38 (
talk) 16:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
If the Slavic migrations in the Balkans is mentioned in the article, then according to that rationale, Albanians should also be mentioned? ( Interestedinfairness ( talk) 22:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)).
why? The Slavic migrations date to the 7th century, and they are relevant as spelling the end of an identifiable "Illyrian" entity. The Albanians first appear 500 years later, in the 12th century, long after anything related to Illyria had passed into history. You do not seem to be aware of the significance of "500 years", a full half millennium. For a culture without written historiography, 500 years is basically "forever", so long past any living memory that events pass completely into myth and legend. -- dab (𒁳) 08:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually the first time they were mentioned was in the 11th century, thank you very much. If the Slavs invaded the Balkans and assimilated the people of Illyria, then surely it is worth mentioning that the Albanians were not assimilated?
Interestedinfairness ( talk) 10:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
"this is the article on the land inhabited by the Illyrians, not the Illyrians themselves"? The second para of the lead actually mentions the people of Illyria. And if we're going to present the view that the
Albanians are the descendants of the
Illyrians, then it should also be mentioned in this lead. I mean, why not, it only seems rationale, we're already mentioning Greek Myths...(
Interestedinfairness (
talk) 11:34, 2 June 2009 (UTC)).
If this article is for the land inhabited by the Illyrians, not the Illyrians themselves then you should mention in legacy section what happened also to the territory of "Real Illyrians" Illyrii proprie dicti (see Katicic, Alfoldy and Wilke on that issue which is to be considered as such) and how come this assimilation process (Origin of Blkan Slavs) is connected with territory? Aigest ( talk) 11:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Illyrians are not Albanians, although the thought of it certainly made me chuckle. 99.236.221.124 ( talk) 18:17, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Removed this [16], which is unsourced folk etymology at its worst. Its placement in the Mythology section is even weirder. This is precisely the sort of folk etymology we need to avoid in this encyclopedia. For all we know, words that sound like "Illyria" could mean something in Urdu and Udi, but we wouldn't be including them here, would we? Athenean ( talk) 18:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
this is obviously a folk etymology since the albanian word comes from latin.. 87.202.36.16 ( talk) 23:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
After an Afd, it was decided by consensus that the article named Illyrian history be merged. The obvious target articles for the merger are this one, and Illyria. I have already begun implementing the merger. Some sections of Illyrian history were cut-and-paste from this article, so I simply removed them from Illyrian history. That was a no-brainer. However, the remainder of the merger is non-trivial. Much of the Illyrian history article is unsourced. Is there a point in merging massive amounts of unsourced text? We must be careful not to duplicate info, but also not to lose info that is sourced but not already in this article. Athenean ( talk) 00:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree, there is nothing worthy we can add here from Illyrian history, redirection seems the only way. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
@AC: The article 'Illyrian history' will not be kept per afd result, we should here discuss which parts should be moved to Illyria. Take your time. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
What is this map on this article? Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia of self-made maps, which are constructed according to someone's view and opinion? Why the map I brought is not valid, and deleted by user Athenean, and the self-made map is valid? ( Edvin ( talk) 09:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC))
This map is full of mistakes. I'll mention some:
1 Dassareti are located by historians in Albania, between
Vjosa river and
Prespa lakes (roughly
Korça basin). In the current map they are placed some 300 km in north, somewhere in Kosovo near
Mitrovica.
2 Labeates are located by historians around Shkodër Lake in Albania and Montenegro (even Shkoder lake was called Labeatis lake in Ancient times). In the current map they are placed some 200km away in Kosovo around Gjakova.
3 Amantes are located by historians in Albania, Vlorë district, south of Vjosa river in Plloçe village (15 km east of Vorë city). In the current map they are placed some 200km away around Lake Ohrid.
4 Bylliones are located by historians in Albania, in Klos region close to Vjosa river. In the current map it is placed much norther around Shkumbin river
Could be more mistakes. I've just mentioned some. The map should be corrected or replaced with a new one. Aigest ( talk) 09:34, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
So far I've checked, the map is fine:
1. The Dassareti are located in N. Albanian-Kosovo near the Ardieai. Perhaps you mean the Dessaretae, who were not Ilyrrians (per Hammond, Wilkes) and lived in Korce plain. 2. Also per Hammond Amantes were not the same tribe, retlated to the Epirote Amantes tribe that lived south. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:08, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
regions — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaryroseB54 ( talk • contribs) 13:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
What is the scope of the article? Does it only discuss pre-Roman Illyria or all phases of Illyria up to late antiquity Illyricum? @ Βατο: -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I noticed something curious about a new article at Talk:Illyrian kingdom. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 13:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Khirurg: the Labeatae should be placed on today's Albania-Montenegro border. Where currently are the Labeatae should be placed the Pirustae. The Dassareti should be added to the map. The Amantes (tribe) and Atintanians also should be added but with a different colour due to being disputed as either Illyrian or Greek. The Pannonian tribes are not placed well in northern Serbia and southern Hungary - though I can't provide a better picture at the moment. In any case, a much better map is needed, hopefully someone will make one some day. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:24, 23 July 2022 (UTC)
Illyrian history was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 15 December 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Illyria. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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IP 70.69.175.56 seems to have added this fragment to the article both in Illyrian kingdom and in "In the Bible". It's not related to the Illyrian region, has typoes and throws in some strange uncited claims, so I moved it from the article to here and added back the periods in the sentences just before the additions. Those wiser on the topic can probably figure out what this is all about? Kataja ( talk) 00:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Illyria, is also the name of an ancient mythological high priestess and sorceress of Roman and Greek decent (her myth is speculated by experts to be descended from an older similar figures from ancient Babylonia, Mesopotamia, and as far back as the neolithic era ie the goddess of willendorf ), who stood up during times of crisis against outpouring hoards during battle. she was a lesser know womens activist, who was honored and worshiped my many. until 500-600AD, myths of her were spread all across europe, but were nearly eradicated by Christianity, and Islam, claiming that she was an evil witch and the devil's whore. few remaining artifacts are left that give some clarification of Illyria's myth and power. a few small pieces of pottery, wine jugs, and a few statues, and some written work by Thales, (a goddess worshiper himself) he wrote of her despise of man laying blame where it was not due, saying famously that "[things] are not white or black... but both because nature's both.... the only good or bane is in the heart of the doer" today she is little but an unknown myth, seen many places but recognized rarely. the few people who keep her record, are sparse neo-pagan witch cults, and higher level historians.
Well, I always thought that the article should be under Illyria, but now there are quite a few pages that link to Ancient Illyria. Should we change all those articles to point to Illyria? At the very least we should probably change the links in the History of Albania series. Dori 15:02, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
[ copyvio removed]
Moved this from article. Seems patent nonsense, but if it isn't, rewrite and put back in. Wyllium 23:41, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
Quote from the article: "The Albanian transliteration i lirë translates to a free person."
Albanian "i lirë" has nothing to with the Illyrians.
"Lirë" is a term borrowed by the ancestors of the Albanians from Latin "liber"="free". ("b" between the vowels disappears on Latin words borrowed in Albanian, just like in the word "horse" lat. cabalus -> alb. kalë.)
The name of Illyria was used long before the Romans came in the Balkans. Bogdan | Talk 17:41, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
lol "i lirë" means in albanian the free and "i liri" means the free one that word is illyrian and not latin orgin and i think slavs should not write here in this wiki artikels which have to do with albanians because you are politcally motivated and writte here only lies which your goverment told you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dardan207 ( talk • contribs) 15:35, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Quote from the article: "This article is about the ancient civilization related to present-day Albania."
I contest that. It seems that Illyrians have nothing to do with Albania, except the teritory.
There is no proof there is any connection. There's a text written in Messapic (Messapians were an Illyrian tribe) that says:
klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi [1]
It has no resemblence whatsover with today's Albanian. We should look for the ancestors of Albanians in Dacia, Moesia or Pannonia. Bogdan | Talk 17:53, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That text proves nothing. The tribe could have used a different dialect or language. Also, although Albanian is thought to have derived from Ilyrian, I seriously doubt you can find anyone who will say that knowing Albanian means knowing Illyrian. In most historical texts it's pretty well accepted that Albanians are descendent of Illyrians. That doesn't mean it's true, but I wouldn't accept a minority opinion, or original research as more authoritative.
Dori |
Talk 15:56, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
It is likely possible that Albanians have Illyrian blood (but no more so than Serbs, Bosnians, or Croats), however it is entirely impossible that the Albanian language derives from Illyrian due to the fact that modern Albanian is a satem language and Illyrian was a centum/kentum language. It is impossible for a satem language to transform into a centum one or vice versa (unless there is a change in its subtrate, which is not the case with Albanian). I agree that there are some historians who believe that Albanian is the descendant of Illyrian, but none of these historians explain how a centum language became a satem one. This has been explained in more depth by some Albanian historians who do not agree with the Illyrian origin of Albanians theory such as Dr. Kaplan Resuli, Dr. Adrian Vebiu, Dr. Fatos Ljubonja. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
209.202.90.87 (
talk •
contribs) 14:50, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Illrians are the present day Albanians........... Here is why Serbs are not the descedants of Illyrians......... SLAVS WHO ARE SERBS CAME INTO BALKANS INTO 7TH CENTURY A.D...... THEY SPEAK SLAVIC LANGUAGE,,,,,,, THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT ILLIRYCUM AS AN INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE,,,,NOT SLAVIC,,,,,SERBS MIGRATED TO BALKANS FORM THE CARPATHE MOUNTAINS OF RUSSIA,,,, SOME SERBS ALSO COME FROM PRESENT DAY IRAN, SIBERIA, AND CAUCUS —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.21.70.73 (
talk •
contribs) 17:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
THE PRESENT DAY SERBIA WAS CALLED SERVIA- WHICH MEANS SERVANT IN LATIN,, THEY CHANGED THE NAME OF SERVIA TO SERBIA AROUND 1934 I BELIEVE,,,,,,,,, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.70.73 ( talk • contribs) 17:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The slavic people came from the carpatian mountains in the 7th century and they settled in illyrian territories benefiting from the weakness of illyrians tribes. They assimilated illyrian people so that makes them in part illyrian descendents but the similarity of the albanian and illyrian languages along with the grave traditions of illyrians and arberians (predecessors of today albanians in the middle ages) indicate that arberians are descendents of illyrians therefore albanians are descendent of illyrian tribes.
albanians claim nothing by saying they are from illyric descendenc and kosovo became a part of serbia
in 1913 when other countries decided for albanias borders. albanias voice was irrelevant to the major powers of that time in confront with those of serbia and greece becous of their strength in the region they would have been better allies for those powers. More than 80% of kosovo speaks albanian and they call themselves albanians. Serbia lost all rights over kosovo after milloschevics genocid.
Everyone keeps forgeting about events that happened just a decade ago. Albania has no claim for the neighboroughs lands even though 30% of macedonia is albanian and lands in norther greece were once populated by albanians (cameria) but they migrated to southern albania unlike albanians in kosovo who prefered to stay under serbian rule but in their homes.(this information is not related to illyrians but its a response to a statement made above that albania claims kosovo or other neighborough territories)
In a europe growing unified year by year territorial claims of serbians, albanians or other countries are pointless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.240.76 ( talk) 17:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I expanded the list of tribes and I think its so long it should become its own page. Anyone against this idea? freestylefrappe 07:27, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)
I removed a number of tribes that were not Illyrian tribes: Maedi were Thracian; Triballi were Thracian; Scordisci were too mixed up with Celtic and Thracian to be considered Illyrian; Paeonians were Paeonians, a distinct ethnicity; Liburni are by most scholars not considered to be real Illyrians; and so on. I'll check the rest later. Decius 10:45, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The List should be a separate page---and be aware that every single tribe listed will be double-checked. Decius 10:49, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Listing the Celtic Boii as an "Illyrian" tribe was a gross display of ignorance or carelessness or both on the part of the lister or his/her source. Decius 11:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I see that someone had listed the Veneti as an Illyrian tribe. Actually, the ancient Venetic language and people are considered distinct from Illyrians (though very probably the languages were related, even closely related, though the close relation of Venetic to Illyrian is very much disputed by scientists). Read this: Venetic language. Read that Venetic sentence. You can see that Venetic was so close to Latin (Italic) that some classify Venetic as an Italic language. If you want to say that the Veneti are the same as Illyri, then you are saying this: the Illyrian language has nothing at all to do with Albanian, and the Illyrian language was in fact close to Latin. You cannot have it both ways. Decius 04:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
User:Freestylefrappe lifted that erroneous list of Illyrian tribes from this website: [2]. The homepage is [3]. This is a pseudo-historic website (a crank site) which is known to be full of untrustworthy information. Next time, instead of just assuming that all those listed are correctly listed, try checking the homepage and doing some extra research. Decius 05:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I really wish people would stop posting the ridiculous tribe list from such a propagandic source.
Confirmied Illyrian tribes are the following from this
source ;
(latinized)
Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, Perrhaebus, Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei,Autariatae, Dardanians, Partheni, Dassaretii, Darsi, Autarieus, Pannonius, Scordiscus, Triballus
These were presented by Appian. Tpilkati 7 July 2005 05:04 (UTC)
If we call the Thesprotians and Mollosians "Illyrian tribes", then we may have to call the Macedonians an "Illyrian tribe". Strabo in his Geography (Book 7.2) writes:
"Among the Thesprotians and Mollosians old women are called Peliai and old men Pelioi, as is also the case among the Macedonians."
---Peliai and Pelioi meant " Pigeons" in ancient Greek, and comes from pelos, 'dark' (PIE *pel-,'pale, gray, dark'). Other similarities are known between the ancient Macedonians and the tribes of ancient Northwestern Greece. It seems to me that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi and the Macedonians were perhaps kin (speaking similar languages or dialects?), perhaps forming a semi-Hellenic branch (or on the other hand, they were just "backward" Hellenes). Unless very strong evidence exists that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi were Illyrian tribes, we should remove them from the list. I removed them from the list for now. Decius 18:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Plutarch has some interesting passages on the Thesprotians and Mollosians in his biography of Pyrrhus. He says that in the language (Dryden translation uses this term) of the country of Epirus, Achilles was known as Aspetos. Plutarch also states that the Mollosian/Thesprotian king Tharrhypas (observe the -rrh- element also found in Macedonian) was "the first" Mollosian/Thesprotian king "who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame for himself." So the same Greek-or-non-Greek ambiguity circles around Mollosians and Thesprotians, as around the Macedonians. Decius 04:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
there are several ancient greek writers that identify the Chanionians, Mollosians and Thesprots as barbarians, and also several old roman historians that do the same, i believe there are links to this in the pages for each tribe and also archeological digs in northern greece and sourthern albania have uncovered objects that are quite different from traditional greek-ware and are quite similar to other objects found in other illyrian dig sites, i have posted a link for that somewhere as well a while back i will try and locate it and post it again back here 67.149.105.34 ( talk) 19:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Jonian
History of the Balkans is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. If you are interested, support the article with your vote. -- Fenice 20:25, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
So who is this magnificent, antediluvian Illyrian king Hyllus, and what classical sources mention him? He's mentioned all over the net (mostly in Wikipedia mirror sites and crank sites), but it is quite mysterious that nowhere is a classical reference given for him. Perseus mentions a number of figures named Hyllus (including Hyllus), but none match the description. --- Decius 05:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia claims that the second Illyrian king we know is Bardyllis, while Albanian Nation History tells how Bardyllis, a digger, won enough advocacy in order to organize a rebellion against Sirra (I wrote it as Albanians do in their books). It is said that Sirra became a king at the end of the fifth century BC, while the revolt took the place in the fourth century BC.
On the other hand Wikipedia tries to make differences between Illyrian tribes, and this is done in purpose to relate modern Albanian state (1/3 of the territory of Ethnic Albania) with the territory inhabited by ‘proper’ Illyrians.
If someone says that ‘illyrian’ – ‘ilir’ (Alb.) doesn’t mean ‘i lirë’ (Albanian free), because it is Latin, I would like to add that the word ‘libero’ may have been used before. Illyrian was an Indo-European language and it is natural to have common or at least similar words with other languages of the family. Një = uno = one = une = eins... or maybe this word, one of the simplest was Latin and then diffused into other languages.
List of Illyrian Tribes by Aleksandar Stipcevic (‘Glli Illiri’, eng. The Illyrians) (only the tribes marked on the map):
Amantini
Andizetes
Ardiei
Atintani
Autariates
Breuci
Bylliones
Chaones
Colapiani
Dalmates
Daorsei
Dardani
Dassaretae
Daunii
Desitiates
Encheleae
Histri
Japodes
Japyges
Jasi
Labeates
Latobici
Liburni
Messapii
Mezei
Molossi
Paeones
Penestae
Parthini
Peucetii
Picentes
Pirustae
Plerei
Scordisci
Serretes
Taulantii
Thesproti
Varciani
Other tribes:
Agrianes
Albanoi * The Yugoslavian censure removed this tribe from the map of A. Stipcevic
Lucanians
Pannoni
Tribali
etc.
Getoar 19:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
The Albanians during Hodja regime, deleted any historical information about Greek presence in modern albanian territory. So, they wrote in their school books that the tribes of Molossians, Chaonians and Thesprotians were ...Illyrian. Suppose they wanted to destroy the ancient Greek inscriptions written by these people in the archolochical sites of Butrindo, Appolonia, Dyrrachium or elsewhere in order to support their ideas. Hope these books ,which are a shame for humanity, are now long forgotten. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Alexikoua (
talk •
contribs) 11:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Chaones Molossi are not greek tribes, the origins of these two tribes are very disputable, some ancient historians refer to them as barbarians while others as greek, as i have stated before several inland archeological digs have turned up items of non greek origin, while there are several other sites closer to the sea which are clearly of a greek nature. The most likely explanation at this point is that of hellenization which is quite normal when a lesser developed culture meets a much more advanced one. Jonian ( talk) 02:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
The delineation of ancient Illyria can pose a problem to historians, since before the Roman conquest the Illyrians were not unified into an Illyrian kingdom, and Illyria's borders before Rome are not always clear. For example, the Dalmatae, though classed as an Illyrian tribe by language, were only subject to the kingdom of Illyria for a short time and soon defected during the reign of King Gentius.
Was there or was there NOT a king of Illyria? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.184.151.157 ( talk • contribs) 16:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that the map on this article is of a very low quality as compared to most other maps on Wikipedia now. I request that someone creates a more detailed and accurate map. I'd do it, but the only image program I know how to use is Microsoft Paint. Bifgis 20:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This map must ber cut from oricum/oricius and above to be correct.
"Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"
"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."
Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer
Megistias ( talk) 08:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Or this map [7] Megistias ( talk) 15:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
This university offers this map of Pre-roman conquest illyria. [8] Megistias ( talk) 17:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Your map shows position of tribes in the western Balkan. Purple area on your map best accords to the territory of the Roman province Illyricum. Illyria was much smaller state in the south. Dalmatae are considered to be Illyrians, that's true, but they were never a part of Illyria state. Also Dalmatia was smaller region in 2nd century BC than nowadays. It was settled not only by Dalmatae. Panoni were never a part of Illyria state. You mix real Illyria state with some non-existing "Illyria" which, according to you, covers all Illyrians!? Zenanarh ( talk) 06:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I just wanne add a website, maybe will help you with some clarification regarding Illyrians
http://www.geocities.com/protoillyrian/index.html
I also wanne mentioned that I noticed many of the Towns and People names will and up with "um" and "ae" if the source is Roman and with "os","es"or "is" if the source is Greek. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Vini78 (
talk •
contribs) 07:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Albanians and Illyrians = No.Slavs and Vlachs=YEs
"The Illyrians, like the Celts and Thracians, dissolved in the sea of latter conquerors, simply for the reason that during the long period of Roman rule they had lost their native culture and were unable to utilize their language to a political life of their own...We first learn of Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon in Anna Comnena's (Alexiad 4)."
John Wilkes, "The Illyrians", Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, 1992
John Wilkes: "The Illyrians", Oxford Press, 1996:
(1) "..A separate group of Illyrians identified by renowned historian Geza Alfoldy: he identifies 'Pannonian peoples' in Bosnia, northern Montenegro [around Plyevlya and Priyepolye, p.84] and western Serbia [Sanxak]". p.75
(2) "Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to identify an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to moderAlbanians." p.219
(3) "...a documented description of Illyrians, Pannonian family: - Pannonians are tall and strong, always ready for a fight and to face dangerous but slow-witted." p.219
(4) "Life has always been hard in the Illyrian lands and countless wars of resistance against invadors are testimony to the durability of their populations." p.220
(5) "In sum, the destructive impact [of Bosnia-centred theory] on the earlier generalizations regarding Illyrians should be regarded as a step forward." p.40
Megistias (
talk) 19:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The following modern countries are on illyrian soil so they take part in the illyrian "heritage".They must be included in all Illyrian projects and since Wilkes points out that among Slavs and the Vlach population of the Areas true illyrian ancestors are found they must be posted and Quoted.This Albanian exclusiveness is arbitrary and irrelevant as most of illyria is part of other countries and other peoples have such ancestors.
ALBANIA (about half of albania)
MONTENEGRO
SERBIA
CROATIA
BOSNIA & HERSEGOVINA
SLOVENIA
HUNGARY
Megistias (
talk) 15:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
i think you are missing greece here, part of northern greece has illyrian inhabitants in it, several archeological digs in what is now norther greece, around Ioanina have turned out objects quite similar to those found in other illyrian dig sites, i do agree however that the albanians do not have exclusivity to illyrians, the only point is that albanians appear to be the only ones that have have a larger illyrian influence in their language and customs than those other countries 67.149.105.34 ( talk) 19:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Jonian
Illyrian (Ilir in albanian) means the free in Albanian.
The Illyrian king Bardyllis name means white star in Albanian.
The province of Dalmatia means "land of sheep" in Albanian.
The city of Ulqinj means "land of wolves" in Albanian.
The Illyrian capitol Lissus (Lis) quite simply means tree in Albanian.
Dardania means land of pears in Albanian
The name oh the illyrian tribe Thesproti means Bringer of sacks (bags) in Albanian
In exception for a few borrowed words from Romance, Turkish and Slavic, Albanian is modern day Illyrian.
Bardhyll, Genc (Gentius in Romance) Agron, Teuta are a few examples of Illyrian names that are still and only used by Albanians.
This obvious affinity can not continue to be denied. Confirm this with an Albanian interpreter or do you wish to keep your eyes closed.
Conclusion: If Serbs where a little bit freindlier to their Albanian neighbours they would gladly explain this long before any misconceptions could be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Durim Durimi ( talk • contribs) using the IP 83.249.217.28 ( talk · contribs) 21:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Here are some quotes from famous Albanian historians;
Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):
When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today's Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.
Quote: "(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):
After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others." Quote: About the Albanians, Wilkes writes "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."
Wilkes was proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European lineage. Quote: That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are..." Fatos Lubojia - Albanian historian Quote: Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi writes: I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths (About Illyrian & Epirote descent) and courageously accept the scientific truth that they are not whatsoever connected to these ancient peoples. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage."
Quote: Ardian Vebiu Famous Albanian historian writes:
My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism Megistias ( talk) 13:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The articles on albania and illyrians related history should all mention that names were constructed and added. They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.
On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today
ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 196 it is stated
From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157. Megistias ( talk) 22:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The above i stated is sourced and obviously a fact.You offer no sources.You must provide sources for names and prove with sources again that they are of Illyrian origin. Megistias ( talk) 13:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
How about you bring some sources and not only express your dislike Megistias ( talk) 13:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Then you have nothing to offer here.Your brain isnt a source and again you persistence isnt one as well.You are entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts Megistias ( talk) 13:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
You should speak with sources.I have offered mine and i expect yours. Megistias ( talk) 21:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
i would remind you the above "Please, keep in mind that per our verifiability policy "[t]he threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." To be included in the article, the claim of a close affinity between the Illyrian & Albanian languages would need to be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Otherwise, such content would constitute original research on our part. " Megistias ( talk) 22:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
They we're also Illyrians.You must correct the Picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.125.52 ( talk) 11:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
this article is not true. the editor dont mention the albanians which are the direct discendents of illyrians. this is not an historical article but an article written for nationalistic reasons —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tolaci ( talk • contribs) 06:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
my 2 cents
i see a lot of discussions about the illyrians and albanians, it is true that there is no proof of a connection between the two people however after trying to explain the existence of albanians we see that the best possibility is still that they derive from illyrians or otherwise they just sprang out of the ground. There is a lot of discussions about the illyrians and they geographical possitioning but that will be to no avail, the illyrians were a large conglomerate and they may have stretched over a large area, however from archeological findings we see that they main are is from modern day Slovenia to the bay of Arta in Greece. There are several ancient greek writers who identify the Molosian and Chaonians and Thesprots as not greek, however since the illyrians were not particularly advanced in culture they very fast and easily assimilated the more advanced greek culture which was made easier by the greek colonies that were created in the ionian coast were these tribes lived and the illyrians did give their contribution with the incorporation of their main deity the sun god into greek myth. As for the Ventians that i saw mentioned here it a lot more possible that they were a latin tribe and not illyrian. There is also a lot of discussion about the albanian language and illyrian language, there are words in both languages which cannot be either of greek, latin or slavic orygin and the issue is that even though some words in albanian can have similarities with neighbouring lands there is no way to find out who borrowed whose and there is actually a trail which can help a little in the languages, old illyrian is very rare but however some words pop up here and there every 2-300 years, from roman times then in byzantine libraries, then in church manuscripts, then in crusader notes and finally the more knows ones in the 1400s. However i do agree that none of this proves that the albanians are descended of the illiryans but there is a lot mor connections between the 2 than with ani other balkan people atm.
again this is my 2 cents and sorry i did not provide the source of my info(too lazy atm) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.249.238.183 (
talk) 06:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
First i would like to point out one thing, the Pelasgs are never in any historical work portrayed as greeks and they were a differnt branch of the indo-european people which was later assimilated by the 3 main settlers of the balkas the greeks, the illyrians and the thracian
As to the thracian ancestry of the albanian language several works by linguist point that the albanian language has a lot more in common with ancient illyrian e.x
Hans Eric Tunman- Professor at University of Hales " A history of Eastern Europe"
Johan George Von Han- Professor at University of Heidelberg "Albanian Studies"
Franc Bopp- Professor at University of Berlin "On the ways of ancient greek, sanskrit persian and german"
Gustav Mayer- Proffesor at University of Grass " The albanian language within the indo-european family"
Holger Pedersen- Professor at University of Copenhagen "The study of balkan languages"
All of the preceding state that the albanian language can only be properly explained as a remainder and heavily infiltrated version of an illyrian dialect and there are a lot more works out there
As per the tribes of epirus, there are several greek and roman historians which have called them non-greeks, such as
Herodotus- Calls the people of epirus as barabrians
Thucydides refers to the epiriots in his works as the "thousand barbarians" which he then elaborates as the Chaonians and their neighbours
Plint the Old: Writes that the chaons and the molossians were bucolic people somewhat wild and spoke a differnt language than their neighbours to the south. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.249.238.183 ( talk) 17:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Of course you have, and i have as well and i can offer a lot more if needed, however to make the long story short, the modern albanian people live in an area historically inhabited by illyrian tribes, their language is a unique branch of the indo-europian language, the language and the people can be traced throught the centuries although with some significant holes so after checking all other possibles alternatives we are left with the illyrians as the most viable one and the one with more connections, i am not saying that the illirans are directly the grandfathers of albanians as the modern greeks are not the sons of old greeks but through historical studies we find connections between the people and there is absolutely no way for any real historian to deny that fact —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.249.238.183 ( talk) 20:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I am thinking on starting a wikiproject Illyria
I would like to know if users support this and if anyone is ready help
thank you--
Cra
del 19:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone remove last edit [14] Megistias ( talk) 12:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Illirian as Albanians
A big part of scholars consider the Illyrians as the ancestors of the modern Albanians.
this is what i added ( diff.)
A verifibly of this, it can be checked the Encarta Encyclopedia, online or off-line ("people of Indo-European stock who are considered ancestors of modern Albanians")
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564668/Illyria.html
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861620183/Illyrian.html
Encyclopedia britannica online or book editions ("illyrian, Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language")
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9042146/Illyrian-language
or other websites of history like this ("Most historians of the Balkans believe the Albanian people are in large part descendants of the ancient Illyrians")
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_albaniaancient.htm
Or infinite other internet sources or websites, (i just maked a search of 5 minutes)
Books and scholarship aswell is full of examples of scholars supporting this connection.
Herman Kinder and Werner Hilgemann, The Anchor Atlas of World History, 1, New York, 1974, 90, 94;
and most big known scholars valid supporters of this connection:
Holger Pedersen ( http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9058921/Holger-Pedersen)
Paul Kretcmer (university of vienna)
Hugo Schuchardt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Schuchardt
http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-528358/Hugo-Schuchardt
"Albanesisches und Romanisches zu Miklosich's Albanesisschen"
Gustav Mayer ("Albanesiche Studien")
Teodor Mommsen ("Romische Geschichte")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Mommsen
Jakob Fallmerayer ("Das albanesische element in Griechenland")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Philipp_Fallmerayer
Cabej E. 1976, page 22, <<The albanian language has elements of the illyrian elements>> Book: "Le Probleme du territorie de la formation de la langue albanaise"
This was just some names i had here in my hands momentanely, the list is still long.
But i suppose even if i bring only the encyclopedia britannica source, it should be ok, so all the other links are just a support for the users that are not informet about the theoryes.
Wikipedia rules:
in according to the rules of wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
"Wikipedia articles should cover all major and significant-minority views that have been published by reliable sources"
1) is the britannica a reliable and verifiable source? i suppose yes
2) can i write this point of view of scholarship? in according to the rules of Wikipedia, yes
3) It is related? yes
4) this is to much for an article in wikipedia? no, wikipedia rules don't denie me to write more material if i bring reliable sources.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 11:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
if necessary, i will begin a dispute resolution, if i have material in addiction of the current one, no-where in wikipedia is written there is a limit of sections.
respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 11:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, if you have valid rules of wikipedia that denie me to write this, bring them forward.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 12:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, this is a enrichment of the article, and it is largely sourced, and it is related, if this connection is cited in the encyclopedies this mean of course a rilevant part of scholars support this conenction.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 12:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Your insistence make me consider this a intentional trying of distorsion of the historical and modern facts, of course i'm not here to make accusations, but this is becoming self-evident
respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 12:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
i felt necessary to contact the Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think does not matter where i come from, but does matter if my sources are right or not, so i propose the same article with the title "Illyrian Ethnicity" as an enrichment, also in the "pelasgian" article it is sayd the ethnicity theoryes, and even in a respectable encyclopedia as encarta, in the name "illyria" in the third line it is said what i propose ( http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564668/Illyria.html), so why i can't anrich the article?
PelasgicMoon ( talk) 19:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
so why in the article the section of shakspeare don't go in the "shakspeare" article?
simply because it is a relation, as in this case
... PelasgicMoon ( talk) 20:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I felt opportune to open a request for arbitration.
Respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 23:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised how modern greeks are still today trying to delete the historical facts
I suppose this is a well-organized complaint against the history of albania, or simply a greek mafia in wikipedia.
Sources? Yes i have, all users are working in Illyria, Illyrians, history of Albania, etc etc articles are Greek. This is sourced!
Illyrians seem to be the modern Albanians, this is accepted by most of the scholars. Here in Wikipedia I did not read this, so i went in the talk pages, and I saw where the users that are working in the article come from...
You can change the articles in Wikipedia, but you can't change history.
I don't want to begin conversations here as I saw someone already tryed in a civil way, PelasgicMoon stop talking with Greeks, you're just losing your time, they accused you to be nationalist, to bring falisfied sources, since you entered they had uncivil behaviour with you just because you proposed your idea... these are greeks... they are here for too much times before you, so administrators listen to them, not you, That's it.
Ehi greeks, what you gonna do now, delete my post? I would not be impressed...
and i'm not Albanian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.50.190 ( talk • contribs) 12:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
edit conflickt? who deleted the text written by user 77.100 or something like that?
it was written:
"I am surprised how modern greeks are still today trying to delete the historical facts
I suppose this is a well-organized complaint against the history of albania, or simply a greek mafia in wikipedia.
sources? yes i have, all users are working in the illyria, illyrians, history of albania, etj etj articles are greeks. This is sourced!
Illyrians seems to be the modern albanians, this is accepted by most of the scholars. Here in wikipedia i did not read this, so i went in the talk pages, and i saw where comes from the users that are working in the article...
You can change the articles in wikipedia, but you can't change the history
I don't want to begin conversations here as i saw someone already tryed in a civil way, PelasgicMoon stop talking with greeks, you're just losing your time, they accused you to be nationalist, to bring falisfied sources, since you entered they had uncivil behaviour with you just because you proposed your idea... these are greeks... they are here for too much times before you, so administrators listen them, not you, That's it.
Ehi greeks, what you gonna do now, delete my post? i would not be impressed...
and i'm not albanian"''Italic text
someone had understood that? PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
i did not fill nothing, Megistias
look at this diff
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Illyria&diff=199583674&oldid=199583346
i just said "someone had understood this?"
PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:11, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Megistias, you have sources or not this message was mine? or just your personal guess? please stop accusing me irrilevantly and be civilized.
respectfully, PelasgicMoon ( talk) 13:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm Frenkalbatros, ilirian are not albanians. even if the language is similar , megistias says the truth, i am fierce of being Albanian but is useless to try bogus theories , (sorry for my language but i am albanian) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenkalbatros ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
This is crazy. There is a dispute to whether Albanians are descendants of Ilirians, but there are also a lot of scholars that support the idea. On the other hand it is much harder to give facts that Albanians are not Ilirians than contrary. I think the article should have a source stating that there is a number of scholars and theories about the connection of Albanians and Ilirians. I read that someone posted some links to support these addition. We should let the readers decide whether the Enciclopedia Britanica and Encarta are strong sources, and not let some user (who is obviously POV) here teach us about the value of those encyclopedias. -- Lilonius ( talk) 21:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Illyria or Illyricum or both? Why a map of Illyricum in info box of Illyria??? Zenanarh ( talk) 06:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Albanian are the descedents of Ilirians and if you learn the history you can see beter the situation.Please don't put in this site not real facts becouse this could make you lose the credibility and if you are Wikipedia=enciclopedia please stay in the facts.You have to talk with real profesors,to see maby some muses,and to read some boks.This is an advise,and I know who right this don't know Albania and her History,but you can tray to find it out.This is not a fight,I don't wont to see this,the History is a fact,this hapent,that's all.But the greks allready take a peace of Albania in the Second Wor,they wont more...they kill allready in off,they dosen't have to kill our History to.
Please be impartial when you right the History.Thank you.By —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.123.146.108 ( talk) 21:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
How about Iliria the Albanian spelling of the topic. So many people on here discredit, the widely held view may i add, that Albanians are the modern ancestors of the Illyrians. It's a lot of bullshit to be honest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.100.249 ( talk) 23:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I will keep editing it, putting the Albanian spelling first, how it should be. Whoever deleted it should be banned.
Realmadrid123 (
talk) 16:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know what do you think of this text in the Illyria and Illyrians articles (in green)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Illyrians&action=edit&undoafter=290146216&undo=290156658
I've provided a lot of information backed up by books with exact page numbers, after a long research with several historians. I think that the section should remain in those articles. -- Jurgenalbanian ( talk) 20:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Since you are smarter then historians,then why don't you provide us with examples about how it is "poorly written" or "unorganized",and as about the references,you have the books,you have even the number of pages where the article is written,the fact that you don't read,or that you don't have any worthy library in your neighbourhood matters me not!-- Jurgenalbanian ( talk) 23:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
With what you wrote,you just proved that you did not read a thing about the article.Let me give you some refferences...(all of them are written at the article):
- The first known occurance of the word Albanoi as the name of an Illyrian tribe in what is now north-central Albania goes back to he 2nd century BC, in the History of the World written by Polybius, whom mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.
- In the 1st century AD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses
- In the 2nd century , 130 AD, Ptolemy Claudius, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located Northeast of Durrës) ), from which the Albanians were later on to be identified by the world.. Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city.
-Albani (Albanoi), tribe in ancient Illyria, from Alexander G. Findlay's Classical Atlas to Illustrate Ancient Geography, New York, 1849
- In the south of Albania is a city called Berat which in ancient times was called Antipatrea and by the Romans Albanorum Oppidium which means the Fortress of the Albanians
- Approximately a millennium later, some Byzantine writers used the words "Albanon" and "Arbanon" to indicate the region of Kruja. Under the Angevine rulers, in the 13th century, the names "Albania" and "Albanenses" indicated the whole country and all the population, as is demonstrated by the works of many ancient Albanian writers such as Budi, Blanco and Bogdani.
-Albanians in their native land as the Arbanites of Arbanon from the daughter of Emperor Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118), Anna Comnena which describes in her account (Alexiad 4 which is a book written around the year 1148 ) of the troubles in that region caused by the Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I. She describe the political and military history Byzantine Empire during the reign of her father (1081-1110) , making it one of the most important sources of information on the Byzantines of the Middle Ages....
Other Ref:
1. A. Stipcevic 1989 'Iliri: povijest, zivot, kultura'.
2. Mark Tirta 2004 'Mytholgy between Albanians'
3. Manfred Lurker 2004 'The Routledge dictionary of Gods and Godesses, Devils and Demons'
I just gave you about 10-11 books,if you can't find neither of these in your neighbourhoods library,then you can go and fully read the article where you can find about twice or triple more refferences then the ones I just wrote,and when you oppose,give me facts and refferences,not your own suppositions!-- Jurgen talk 20:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 17:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
And stop accusing me for nationalism,none of the writers above is albanian except "Mark Tirta",who wrote his book with the help of a greek historian!-- Jurgen talk 20:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 17:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Since nobody could oppose, I assume it's time to post this study in the article. AlboSoldier ( talk) 20:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
-This study and these resources provided in here have been ignored long enough by the people who seem incapable of providing any reason for them not to be implemented, and who seem to keep writing in other sections of this article, except this one. If I don't get any valid reasons on why this study was never implemented in the article, while there was never provided the reason in not doing so, by the end of the week, then I'll be moving it to the Main Article. People that say Albanians are not descendants of Illyrians and vice-versa, should give some real arguments and resources about this, as the albanians seem to have done, and not just troll in here, as it is not a forum, it's the discussion page of an enciclopedia, so please be more serious. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
82.137.72.38 (
talk) 16:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
If the Slavic migrations in the Balkans is mentioned in the article, then according to that rationale, Albanians should also be mentioned? ( Interestedinfairness ( talk) 22:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)).
why? The Slavic migrations date to the 7th century, and they are relevant as spelling the end of an identifiable "Illyrian" entity. The Albanians first appear 500 years later, in the 12th century, long after anything related to Illyria had passed into history. You do not seem to be aware of the significance of "500 years", a full half millennium. For a culture without written historiography, 500 years is basically "forever", so long past any living memory that events pass completely into myth and legend. -- dab (𒁳) 08:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Actually the first time they were mentioned was in the 11th century, thank you very much. If the Slavs invaded the Balkans and assimilated the people of Illyria, then surely it is worth mentioning that the Albanians were not assimilated?
Interestedinfairness ( talk) 10:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
"this is the article on the land inhabited by the Illyrians, not the Illyrians themselves"? The second para of the lead actually mentions the people of Illyria. And if we're going to present the view that the
Albanians are the descendants of the
Illyrians, then it should also be mentioned in this lead. I mean, why not, it only seems rationale, we're already mentioning Greek Myths...(
Interestedinfairness (
talk) 11:34, 2 June 2009 (UTC)).
If this article is for the land inhabited by the Illyrians, not the Illyrians themselves then you should mention in legacy section what happened also to the territory of "Real Illyrians" Illyrii proprie dicti (see Katicic, Alfoldy and Wilke on that issue which is to be considered as such) and how come this assimilation process (Origin of Blkan Slavs) is connected with territory? Aigest ( talk) 11:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Illyrians are not Albanians, although the thought of it certainly made me chuckle. 99.236.221.124 ( talk) 18:17, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Removed this [16], which is unsourced folk etymology at its worst. Its placement in the Mythology section is even weirder. This is precisely the sort of folk etymology we need to avoid in this encyclopedia. For all we know, words that sound like "Illyria" could mean something in Urdu and Udi, but we wouldn't be including them here, would we? Athenean ( talk) 18:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
this is obviously a folk etymology since the albanian word comes from latin.. 87.202.36.16 ( talk) 23:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
After an Afd, it was decided by consensus that the article named Illyrian history be merged. The obvious target articles for the merger are this one, and Illyria. I have already begun implementing the merger. Some sections of Illyrian history were cut-and-paste from this article, so I simply removed them from Illyrian history. That was a no-brainer. However, the remainder of the merger is non-trivial. Much of the Illyrian history article is unsourced. Is there a point in merging massive amounts of unsourced text? We must be careful not to duplicate info, but also not to lose info that is sourced but not already in this article. Athenean ( talk) 00:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree, there is nothing worthy we can add here from Illyrian history, redirection seems the only way. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
@AC: The article 'Illyrian history' will not be kept per afd result, we should here discuss which parts should be moved to Illyria. Take your time. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
What is this map on this article? Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia of self-made maps, which are constructed according to someone's view and opinion? Why the map I brought is not valid, and deleted by user Athenean, and the self-made map is valid? ( Edvin ( talk) 09:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC))
This map is full of mistakes. I'll mention some:
1 Dassareti are located by historians in Albania, between
Vjosa river and
Prespa lakes (roughly
Korça basin). In the current map they are placed some 300 km in north, somewhere in Kosovo near
Mitrovica.
2 Labeates are located by historians around Shkodër Lake in Albania and Montenegro (even Shkoder lake was called Labeatis lake in Ancient times). In the current map they are placed some 200km away in Kosovo around Gjakova.
3 Amantes are located by historians in Albania, Vlorë district, south of Vjosa river in Plloçe village (15 km east of Vorë city). In the current map they are placed some 200km away around Lake Ohrid.
4 Bylliones are located by historians in Albania, in Klos region close to Vjosa river. In the current map it is placed much norther around Shkumbin river
Could be more mistakes. I've just mentioned some. The map should be corrected or replaced with a new one. Aigest ( talk) 09:34, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
So far I've checked, the map is fine:
1. The Dassareti are located in N. Albanian-Kosovo near the Ardieai. Perhaps you mean the Dessaretae, who were not Ilyrrians (per Hammond, Wilkes) and lived in Korce plain. 2. Also per Hammond Amantes were not the same tribe, retlated to the Epirote Amantes tribe that lived south. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:08, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
regions — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaryroseB54 ( talk • contribs) 13:56, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
What is the scope of the article? Does it only discuss pre-Roman Illyria or all phases of Illyria up to late antiquity Illyricum? @ Βατο: -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I noticed something curious about a new article at Talk:Illyrian kingdom. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 13:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Khirurg: the Labeatae should be placed on today's Albania-Montenegro border. Where currently are the Labeatae should be placed the Pirustae. The Dassareti should be added to the map. The Amantes (tribe) and Atintanians also should be added but with a different colour due to being disputed as either Illyrian or Greek. The Pannonian tribes are not placed well in northern Serbia and southern Hungary - though I can't provide a better picture at the moment. In any case, a much better map is needed, hopefully someone will make one some day. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 19:24, 23 July 2022 (UTC)