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If anyone has a photo of Rudder's statue, that would be a good addition to this page rather than Rudder Fountain - it was already uploaded, so I figured I might as well use it. - Texink 04:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
If anyone feels it necessary to expand this article a little more, here is a reliable source to use: [1] -- Blueag9 17:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone think we should include some info on Vision 2020 or on Gates's tenure? I'm torn. Karanacs 19:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Here are other things I've thought might have a place in this article, but I'm not sure.
Does anyone else have an opinion? Karanacs 13:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
References
{{
cite press release}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite press release}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
The Morrill Act, signed into law July 2, 1862, granted states public lands to be sold at public auctions to establish a permanent fund to support colleges where the "leading object shall be, without excluding other scientific and classical studies and including military tactics, to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and mechanical arts...in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life".
How about: The Morrill Act, signed into law July 2, 1862, was created to establish colleges where the "leading object shall be, without excluding other scientific and classical studies and including military tactics, to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and mechanical arts...in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life". States were granted states public lands that were sold at public auctions that established permanent funds for these colleges ???
Three (3) links were detect as requiring assistance, Colleges and Achievements, Texas A&M Joins Phi Beta Kappa Ranks, and Texas A&M Selected For Membership In Association Of American Universities returned a HTTP 404 status message. — Dispenser 04:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about having one more picture at the end for current status. something already in our commons should be more than adequate. ideas:
See this conversation. → Wordbuilder ( talk) 00:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
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Wikipedia seems to have no content about the general history of the use of the term "Agricultural and Mechanical" in the names of colleges -- only articles about assorted individual US institutions, such as Texas A&M. It would be interesting to know when and where the term originated, how it spread, and how it is dying out. What most similar terms have been used in other countries?- 73.61.15.196 ( talk) 14:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The Texas Constitution of 1876 unquestionably constituted A&M as a branch of UT. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CN/htm/CN.7.htm
Any claims that the state legislature separated the two institutions in 1875 are both untrue and, if true, immaterial, as the 1876 Constitution would have negated any act of the legislature in 1875.
In both 1915 and 1919, the voters of Texas defeated proposed Constitutional amendments to separate the two institutions. https://lrl.texas.gov/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=65&legSession=34-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=34 https://lrl.texas.gov/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=76&legSession=36-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=29
That the legislature passed proposed amendments after 1876 to separate the two institutions in both 1915 and 1919 and the proposed amendments were sent to voters should give some indication that the legislature (and Attorney General of Texas) believed A&M was in fact a branch of UT in 1915 and 1919.
Absent any indication that the information in the state archives (as cited above) Randolph Duke ( talk) 21:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)regarding the 1915 and 1919 proposed constitutional amendments is false, I will restore my edits that indicate the votes on the two amendments to terminate A&M's status as a branch of The University of Texas did in fact occur. Randolph Duke ( talk) 21:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
The citation you offer mentions nothing of any separation. Why did you even offer that as a citation?
The two systems are separate in function, but the fact that A&M was established as a branch of The University of Texas by the Constitution of 1876, and the fact that branch status has never been terminated, is important in any discussion of the History of Texas A&M.
During the Constitutional Convention of 1875, it was the representative of the Texas A&M Board of Directors (school Director Bennett Davis) who insisted that A&M be a branch of UT. Tomlinson, Marie Guy; The State Agricultural and Mechanical College of Texas, 1871-1879: the personalities, politics, and uncertainties; 1976 Thesis, Texas A&M University; p.168; http://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/ETD-TAMU-1976-THESIS-T659/1976%20Thesis%20T659.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=n
This is information taken from a Texas A&M student's thesis, vetted by Texas A&M professors, and retrieved from a Texas A&M school website. Whatever motives you may choose to impute, the fact remains the information is both relevant and accurate. The readers are free to interpret the information as they choose.
We both know your assertion the state made the two institutions separate and distinct in 1875 is (at best) a misleading assertion, as the voters of Texas made A&M a branch of UT in 1876 when they passed the state constitution (Art 7, Sec 13, 1876 Constitution, previously cited). Your insistence that the branch status as set forth in the 1876 constitution not be mentioned quite frankly makes me question your motives. The fact you can offer no citation for the supposed 1875 "separation" casts doubt on why you believe that particular passage should be in this article. If can can find a citation for your 1875 "separation" and you feel it must be included, include your passage and cite it. Then I will add that that "separation" was made null and void, at the insistence of the A&M Board of Directors, in the 1876 Constitution. I will also post Tomlinson's thesis and the 1876 state Constitution to support my edits. Should this be satisfactory, cite your claim, I will post my edits, and we will be done with this.
Absent any objections other than your imputed motives, I will repost the information.
If it helps you understand the context of the proposed separation amendments in 1915 and 1919, here is the May 19, 1915 A&M school paper where the A&M school president advocates for the passage of the exact proposed separation amendment you believe should be hidden from individuals wishing to better understand the history of Texas A&M. Clearly, in 1915, the A&M school president was advocating for separation of the two schools. Yet you claim (but do not cite) that separation happened in 1875. https://newspaper.library.tamu.edu/lccn/sn86088544/1915-05-19/ed-1/seq-1/
The fact is that you are incorrect in your assertion the two schools were separated in 1875. In 1915, when the first separation (as recognized by the Texas A&M school president) amendment was put before the voters of Texas, Texas A&M was a branch college of The University of Texas (again, as recognized by the Texas A&M school president). If the separation amendment was important enough to draw the attention of the Texas A&M school president, the state legislature, and 125,000 Texas voters, I feel comfortable including a few words about it in a history of the history of Texas A&M on Wikipedia.
Randolph Duke ( talk) 22:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Lacking citations for your claims, and lacking any information that refutes the edits I have offered, I have to rely on the information and sources I found when developing my edits. Therefore, I have to revert to the cited revisions I posted.
Please do not edit the page without first discussing your proposed edits in the talk section.
Do you have any explanation why the president of Texas A&M, the entire state legislators and the voters of Texas would consider separation of Texas A&M from The University of Texas and termination of A&M's branch college status in 1915 if the two institutions, as you claim, were separated in 1875?
Again, without additional information and reputable citations, please do not alter this page again. A "reasonable compromise" to our disagreements would start with your offering reputable citations for your claims and your offering some reasonable explanation of why the proposed constitutional amendments to separate the two institutions in 1915 and 1919 should not be mentioned when you insist the spurious claim the two institutions were separated in 1875 should be mentioned. Randolph Duke ( talk) 14:33, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Not to get too deep into this, RD, but regardless of the legal statutes, A&M has always functioned as an independent school. I know how they were legally established, but these were treated as guidelines (that weren't followed). Updates to the law in 1915, 1919, 1948, and others better codified the relationship with the state and the other schools in the state. Moreover, no law actually gave authority for UT to run A&M. As such, it's accurate to state: "Though Texas A&M was originally established as a branch of the yet-to-be-created University of Texas, subsequent acts of the Texas Legislature never gave the University any authority over Texas A&M." Demand to "not edit the page without first discussing your proposed edits in the talk section." are in contradiction with Wikipedia policy. Buffs ( talk) 20:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
I respect that Texas A&M has had separate governance from the main university, but if you are going to claim the separate governance structure was brought about by acts of the legislature, you need to provide citations for those claims. The acts of the Texas legislature are available online ( https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/GLT/). If evidence of your claims exists, you are obligated to produce it.
Governance and legal status are two distinct issues. I have offered abundant evidence that Texas A&M was established as a branch college of The University of Texas. I have also offered numerous citations supporting the fact that every effort to amend the Texas Constitution intended to terminate Texas A&M's branch college status have been resoundingly defeated. You are talking about daily governance. I am talking about legal status. The debate is about legal status. You have no support whatsoever for your claim that the constitution status of Texas A&M as a branch of the University of Texas has ever been altered. Therefore, the information that Texas A&M exists today as a branch of The University of Texas is not in question. Any article on the history of Texas A&M should reasonably include its origin as a branch of The University of Texas and the fact that status has never been altered. That fact is at the core of the history of the institution and has defined the school for its entire existence. Anyone wanting to know of the history of Texas A&M University needs to understand this core relationship. Randolph Duke ( talk) 15:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I have referred the disagreement whether original source documents are appropriate for historical discussions to Wikipedia arbitration(arbcom-en@wikimedia.org). Please cease any revisions to my original source citations or edits on this page until the matter has been addressed by Wikipedia arbitration. Randolph Duke ( talk) 16:17, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Huon Oldag07 This indeed was the production of the school, not "all alumni who participated in the war effort".
Additionally, the definition of alumni includes both graduates and non-graduates/former students. Ergo, it is accurate to call them that.
Buffs ( talk) 17:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I am well aware of the table's heading, but it's ambiguous. You read it as "production during WWII of officers", I read it as "total production of WWII officers". Since you likely aren't going to claim that the 29 generals that are given in the same table reached that rank within less than four years of entering the military, the latter interpretation is clearly the right one for the "General Officers" column, and for the "Killed or Died" column as well since there are multiple sources, including the text of Keepers of the Spirit, confirming that the total Aggie deaths were about 950. I see no reason to assume that some of the table's columns refer to A&M totals while others refer to only wartime trainees.
The Battallion appears to confirm the "wartime production" interpretation, but they got it wrong. They cite their sources, which include Keepers of the Spirit (discussed above), and then apparently misinterpret them. Another source they cite is myaggienation.com which says:
There we are again: Approximately 20,000, thereof 14,000 officers, and those are all "students and former students", not just wartime trainees. For what it's worth, I have emailed the Cadet Corps, which gives the figures of 20,229 and 14,123 on their website, and asked them to clarify how those numbers should be read.
Keepers of the Spirit also mentions that there were non-cadet (other sources refer to them as "non-student") military trainees on the campus during WWII; of those about 15,000 were trained. They were trained by the military, however, and cannot be considered "produced by Texas A&M". Huon ( talk) 22:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Oldag07: with Karanacs mostly gone, might you do some minor tune-ups needed here? (And maybe Karanacs will pop back in, too!) Some issues have crept in since the article was featured in 2007, and sourcing standards have gotten stricter:
This all looks doable with a quick tuneup. Best regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:09, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Note The
Texas A&M University System formed in 1948, includes 11 campuses throughout the state of Texas. Schools that are part of this system, but not part of The Texas A&M University institution, thus the history of campuses outside of the system's flagship campus is beyond the scope of his article. |
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If anyone has a photo of Rudder's statue, that would be a good addition to this page rather than Rudder Fountain - it was already uploaded, so I figured I might as well use it. - Texink 04:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
If anyone feels it necessary to expand this article a little more, here is a reliable source to use: [1] -- Blueag9 17:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone think we should include some info on Vision 2020 or on Gates's tenure? I'm torn. Karanacs 19:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Here are other things I've thought might have a place in this article, but I'm not sure.
Does anyone else have an opinion? Karanacs 13:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
References
{{
cite press release}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite press release}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
The Morrill Act, signed into law July 2, 1862, granted states public lands to be sold at public auctions to establish a permanent fund to support colleges where the "leading object shall be, without excluding other scientific and classical studies and including military tactics, to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and mechanical arts...in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life".
How about: The Morrill Act, signed into law July 2, 1862, was created to establish colleges where the "leading object shall be, without excluding other scientific and classical studies and including military tactics, to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and mechanical arts...in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life". States were granted states public lands that were sold at public auctions that established permanent funds for these colleges ???
Three (3) links were detect as requiring assistance, Colleges and Achievements, Texas A&M Joins Phi Beta Kappa Ranks, and Texas A&M Selected For Membership In Association Of American Universities returned a HTTP 404 status message. — Dispenser 04:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about having one more picture at the end for current status. something already in our commons should be more than adequate. ideas:
See this conversation. → Wordbuilder ( talk) 00:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
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Wikipedia seems to have no content about the general history of the use of the term "Agricultural and Mechanical" in the names of colleges -- only articles about assorted individual US institutions, such as Texas A&M. It would be interesting to know when and where the term originated, how it spread, and how it is dying out. What most similar terms have been used in other countries?- 73.61.15.196 ( talk) 14:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
The Texas Constitution of 1876 unquestionably constituted A&M as a branch of UT. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CN/htm/CN.7.htm
Any claims that the state legislature separated the two institutions in 1875 are both untrue and, if true, immaterial, as the 1876 Constitution would have negated any act of the legislature in 1875.
In both 1915 and 1919, the voters of Texas defeated proposed Constitutional amendments to separate the two institutions. https://lrl.texas.gov/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=65&legSession=34-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=34 https://lrl.texas.gov/legis/billsearch/amendmentDetails.cfm?amendmentID=76&legSession=36-0&billTypedetail=HJR&billNumberDetail=29
That the legislature passed proposed amendments after 1876 to separate the two institutions in both 1915 and 1919 and the proposed amendments were sent to voters should give some indication that the legislature (and Attorney General of Texas) believed A&M was in fact a branch of UT in 1915 and 1919.
Absent any indication that the information in the state archives (as cited above) Randolph Duke ( talk) 21:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)regarding the 1915 and 1919 proposed constitutional amendments is false, I will restore my edits that indicate the votes on the two amendments to terminate A&M's status as a branch of The University of Texas did in fact occur. Randolph Duke ( talk) 21:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
The citation you offer mentions nothing of any separation. Why did you even offer that as a citation?
The two systems are separate in function, but the fact that A&M was established as a branch of The University of Texas by the Constitution of 1876, and the fact that branch status has never been terminated, is important in any discussion of the History of Texas A&M.
During the Constitutional Convention of 1875, it was the representative of the Texas A&M Board of Directors (school Director Bennett Davis) who insisted that A&M be a branch of UT. Tomlinson, Marie Guy; The State Agricultural and Mechanical College of Texas, 1871-1879: the personalities, politics, and uncertainties; 1976 Thesis, Texas A&M University; p.168; http://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/ETD-TAMU-1976-THESIS-T659/1976%20Thesis%20T659.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=n
This is information taken from a Texas A&M student's thesis, vetted by Texas A&M professors, and retrieved from a Texas A&M school website. Whatever motives you may choose to impute, the fact remains the information is both relevant and accurate. The readers are free to interpret the information as they choose.
We both know your assertion the state made the two institutions separate and distinct in 1875 is (at best) a misleading assertion, as the voters of Texas made A&M a branch of UT in 1876 when they passed the state constitution (Art 7, Sec 13, 1876 Constitution, previously cited). Your insistence that the branch status as set forth in the 1876 constitution not be mentioned quite frankly makes me question your motives. The fact you can offer no citation for the supposed 1875 "separation" casts doubt on why you believe that particular passage should be in this article. If can can find a citation for your 1875 "separation" and you feel it must be included, include your passage and cite it. Then I will add that that "separation" was made null and void, at the insistence of the A&M Board of Directors, in the 1876 Constitution. I will also post Tomlinson's thesis and the 1876 state Constitution to support my edits. Should this be satisfactory, cite your claim, I will post my edits, and we will be done with this.
Absent any objections other than your imputed motives, I will repost the information.
If it helps you understand the context of the proposed separation amendments in 1915 and 1919, here is the May 19, 1915 A&M school paper where the A&M school president advocates for the passage of the exact proposed separation amendment you believe should be hidden from individuals wishing to better understand the history of Texas A&M. Clearly, in 1915, the A&M school president was advocating for separation of the two schools. Yet you claim (but do not cite) that separation happened in 1875. https://newspaper.library.tamu.edu/lccn/sn86088544/1915-05-19/ed-1/seq-1/
The fact is that you are incorrect in your assertion the two schools were separated in 1875. In 1915, when the first separation (as recognized by the Texas A&M school president) amendment was put before the voters of Texas, Texas A&M was a branch college of The University of Texas (again, as recognized by the Texas A&M school president). If the separation amendment was important enough to draw the attention of the Texas A&M school president, the state legislature, and 125,000 Texas voters, I feel comfortable including a few words about it in a history of the history of Texas A&M on Wikipedia.
Randolph Duke ( talk) 22:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Lacking citations for your claims, and lacking any information that refutes the edits I have offered, I have to rely on the information and sources I found when developing my edits. Therefore, I have to revert to the cited revisions I posted.
Please do not edit the page without first discussing your proposed edits in the talk section.
Do you have any explanation why the president of Texas A&M, the entire state legislators and the voters of Texas would consider separation of Texas A&M from The University of Texas and termination of A&M's branch college status in 1915 if the two institutions, as you claim, were separated in 1875?
Again, without additional information and reputable citations, please do not alter this page again. A "reasonable compromise" to our disagreements would start with your offering reputable citations for your claims and your offering some reasonable explanation of why the proposed constitutional amendments to separate the two institutions in 1915 and 1919 should not be mentioned when you insist the spurious claim the two institutions were separated in 1875 should be mentioned. Randolph Duke ( talk) 14:33, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Not to get too deep into this, RD, but regardless of the legal statutes, A&M has always functioned as an independent school. I know how they were legally established, but these were treated as guidelines (that weren't followed). Updates to the law in 1915, 1919, 1948, and others better codified the relationship with the state and the other schools in the state. Moreover, no law actually gave authority for UT to run A&M. As such, it's accurate to state: "Though Texas A&M was originally established as a branch of the yet-to-be-created University of Texas, subsequent acts of the Texas Legislature never gave the University any authority over Texas A&M." Demand to "not edit the page without first discussing your proposed edits in the talk section." are in contradiction with Wikipedia policy. Buffs ( talk) 20:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
I respect that Texas A&M has had separate governance from the main university, but if you are going to claim the separate governance structure was brought about by acts of the legislature, you need to provide citations for those claims. The acts of the Texas legislature are available online ( https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/GLT/). If evidence of your claims exists, you are obligated to produce it.
Governance and legal status are two distinct issues. I have offered abundant evidence that Texas A&M was established as a branch college of The University of Texas. I have also offered numerous citations supporting the fact that every effort to amend the Texas Constitution intended to terminate Texas A&M's branch college status have been resoundingly defeated. You are talking about daily governance. I am talking about legal status. The debate is about legal status. You have no support whatsoever for your claim that the constitution status of Texas A&M as a branch of the University of Texas has ever been altered. Therefore, the information that Texas A&M exists today as a branch of The University of Texas is not in question. Any article on the history of Texas A&M should reasonably include its origin as a branch of The University of Texas and the fact that status has never been altered. That fact is at the core of the history of the institution and has defined the school for its entire existence. Anyone wanting to know of the history of Texas A&M University needs to understand this core relationship. Randolph Duke ( talk) 15:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I have referred the disagreement whether original source documents are appropriate for historical discussions to Wikipedia arbitration(arbcom-en@wikimedia.org). Please cease any revisions to my original source citations or edits on this page until the matter has been addressed by Wikipedia arbitration. Randolph Duke ( talk) 16:17, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Huon Oldag07 This indeed was the production of the school, not "all alumni who participated in the war effort".
Additionally, the definition of alumni includes both graduates and non-graduates/former students. Ergo, it is accurate to call them that.
Buffs ( talk) 17:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I am well aware of the table's heading, but it's ambiguous. You read it as "production during WWII of officers", I read it as "total production of WWII officers". Since you likely aren't going to claim that the 29 generals that are given in the same table reached that rank within less than four years of entering the military, the latter interpretation is clearly the right one for the "General Officers" column, and for the "Killed or Died" column as well since there are multiple sources, including the text of Keepers of the Spirit, confirming that the total Aggie deaths were about 950. I see no reason to assume that some of the table's columns refer to A&M totals while others refer to only wartime trainees.
The Battallion appears to confirm the "wartime production" interpretation, but they got it wrong. They cite their sources, which include Keepers of the Spirit (discussed above), and then apparently misinterpret them. Another source they cite is myaggienation.com which says:
There we are again: Approximately 20,000, thereof 14,000 officers, and those are all "students and former students", not just wartime trainees. For what it's worth, I have emailed the Cadet Corps, which gives the figures of 20,229 and 14,123 on their website, and asked them to clarify how those numbers should be read.
Keepers of the Spirit also mentions that there were non-cadet (other sources refer to them as "non-student") military trainees on the campus during WWII; of those about 15,000 were trained. They were trained by the military, however, and cannot be considered "produced by Texas A&M". Huon ( talk) 22:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@ Oldag07: with Karanacs mostly gone, might you do some minor tune-ups needed here? (And maybe Karanacs will pop back in, too!) Some issues have crept in since the article was featured in 2007, and sourcing standards have gotten stricter:
This all looks doable with a quick tuneup. Best regards, SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 18:09, 1 December 2020 (UTC)