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Do other editors believe this would be appropriate to add to the lead? "Baldwin's background and ethnic identity became the focus of intense scrutiny following allegations in December 2020 she was culturally appropriating a Spanish background." Any thoughts appreciated! -- Kbabej ( talk) 03:27, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Is her anglicised given name Hilary or Hillary (one or two 'l's)? I've seen it spelled both ways. Pelagic ( messages ) – (16:08 Mon 28, AEDT) 05:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
This Page Six article was used as a citation for her birth date, but it has no mention of that so I've removed the citation and replaced with {{cn}} tags. Softlavender ( talk) 08:46, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Update: I added a citation. Softlavender ( talk) 09:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Page Six is a non-RS WP:TABLOID site. If you can't find verification for its claims anywhere but a tabloid gossip site, then those claims should not be in a WP:BLP. Why would any responsible editor reinsert a non-RS tabloid site like Page Six? -- Tenebrae ( talk) 15:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I went to request page protection on this article due to the high level of IP and SPA vandalism. Looks like Softlavender was one step ahead of me! Ideally that will be granted. -- Kbabej ( talk) 17:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Softlavender has changed the 2020 accusations section back to the name "Accusations of cultural appropriation". There is no mention of an accusation like that in the section itself. And even if there were, the fact remains that most accusations center around accusing Baldwin of deliberately using an accent and go not as far as to say she is culturally appropriating. -- Distelfinck ( talk) 17:17, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Softlavender: Yes, I agree we need to balance out the article. I'm going to work more on her career section right now to try and beef that up. There's info out there; I just need to sift through the recentism to get to it. -- Kbabej ( talk) 21:09, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
This is definitely a true statement that she said it, but isn't it a non-sequitur to include this given as this was never in doubt in the first place, she was pretending to not be American, not pretending to not be white. This tells us nothing, it's no different to if she was busted for pretending to be Scottish and then said she was white; the two things are not exclusionary and in 99% of cases they are white. I know that most Americans believe that everyone who speaks Spanish looks like the typical Mexican, but the American definition of who is white still includes Spaniards [3]. It's just funny that the American public only seems to see them that way when they were conquering Aztecs and Incas. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 21:36, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I have found a video of Hillary's mother talking about when she gave birth to her children: [4]. It appears to confirm the birth year of 1984, and also confirms the birth month of January. Starting at about 5:55, she says her first child (Jeremy) was born three months before medical school started, and Hillary was born in January of the second year of medical school. In the video description, it says she became an intern in 1986 (interns have completed their four years of medical school), and in the video she states that she did not take any extra breaks between med school and internship. So this seems to bear out the correctness of the birth date of January 6, 1984. Softlavender ( talk) 01:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
If anyone's got New York Times access, there's an article on the subject's yoga career (I believe that is the focus by the title). It's available here if you can access it. I can't. -- Kbabej ( talk) 21:11, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
The article needs to find some way of correcting some misleading information about the claims of cultural appropriation. Spain is in Europe, and Spanish people are just as "white" as French, Italian, or even many German people. Spanish is a EUROPEAN language, and a EUROPEAN culture. Too many people assume that "Spanish" or "Latin" automatically means something indigenous to North, Central, or South America--- or the Caribbean. This woman h — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:5B02:703C:B8E8:C27F:8BEF:5004 ( talk) 04:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
GoldenGoose100 and Trans-Neptunian object - I agree with both of your points. As another example, Latin America includes Haiti but in the United States, being "Latino" generally only refers to Hispanic countries in the Americas, and Brazil can be a "debated" topic as well. But all these "race" labels are arbitrary and socially constructed. On a tangent, look at how confusing America's racial labels are. America considers "Asian" to be a "race" and they're all considered "POC", even though USA's definition excludes people from Asian countries like Lebanon and Israel as being "Asian" and the general "default Asian" in America are East Asians (probably because the term did arise, in part because describing them as being "yellow" is now deemed outdated/problematic). There are many Americans who think that Asians can't have blonde hair, blue eyes, and "Eurocentric features", because they're considered "POC" in USA, when this is far from the case. So all this confusion and ignorance isn't that shocking. Clear Looking Glass ( talk) 07:40, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
That last paragraph in the Response section really needs some editing. I don't know if someone typed it quickly or did some bad copy and paste, but it sure needs some editing. 2600:1700:BC01:9B0:544F:E012:2320:EFE4 ( talk) 00:40, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
When asked by the New York Time to specify exactly how much time she had spent in Spain during her childhood, Baldwin refused saying: “I think it would be maddening to do such a tight time line of everything. You know, sometimes there was school involved. Sometimes it was vacation. It was such a mix, mishmash, is that the right word? Like a mix of different things.” However Baldwin has only ever been enrolled in school in Massachusetts. C240 ( talk) 12:52, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
66.30.47.138 ( talk) 18:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Google search for Hilaria Baldwin Wikipedia page is now redirecting to Alec Baldwin Wikipedia page? Can this be corrected? Guest218 ( talk) 19:01, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
In November 2012, Vanity Fair Spain published an article that explicitly stated that they asked both Hilaria and her agents for clarification about her origins and childhood and they all refused to respond:
De pequeña
Nueva York es la Meca para las personas que quieren reinventarse a sí mismas. Imbuída de ese espíritu, Thomas se niega a dar o confersar ningún dato biográfico. Solo alguna anécdota elegida con cuidado. Tampoco lo hacen sus agentes, los mismos que Baldwin, que se excusan alegando que lo hacen para salvaguardar la intimidad de su familia. En su lugar, Hilaria se entusiasma narrando su recorrido profesional. [1]
Translation:
Her childhood
New York is the Mecca for people who want to reinvent themselves. Imbued with this spirit, Thomas refuses to give or confess any biographical information [about her childhood]. Only a carefully selected anecdote here and there. Her agents, the same as Baldwin, don't either, declining to, alleging that they are safeguarding the family's privacy. Instead, Hilaria gets excited talking about her professional trajectory.
2A0C:5A80:1F06:AF00:EC23:4A8F:9C9C:1B4F ( talk) 20:04, 3 January 2021 (UTC)último mono
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I made edits in this diff to reduce peacock and non-encyclopedic content.
There is a paragraph about the covers that she's appeared on. It seems to be that it would be good to focus on the most noteworthy / national sources. (I generally wouldn't add a paragraph like this.) Thoughts on scaling back to the most notable covers? Perhaps without the dates?– CaroleHenson ( talk) 07:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
The lead section includes this line:
The first sentence seems written in a non-neutral way, and also I am not seeing sources or further development of it further below in the body of the article. I will delete it.
The second sentence, about her accent allegations, I will not delete at this time. There are sources and it is further expanded below. Something to consider by me later, or by others at any time, is whether this section on the accent "controversy" is suitable for Wikipedia, and if so, whether it has due weight, or excessive weight in the article. I make this note here for others to help consider the issue. Thank you. Al83tito ( talk) 18:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
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Change: Baldwin claims that she was raised in a Spanish-speaking household and traveled to Spain annually.
To: Baldwin claims that she was raised in a Spanish-speaking household and vacationed in Spain.
Reason: The source article does not state that she visited annually, and she has never stated that she visited annually. 2400:2410:8CE0:D700:9D21:675D:BAA2:1053 ( talk) 07:14, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
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Add “She claimed she was Spanish when she spoke at the UN, representing herself as “half Spanish, half American” and then later as being “from Spain”. Source- https://youtube.com/m3JvlV9RQdU Brandywine1989 ( talk) 16:29, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
This needs to be added to the part about speaking at the UN for accuracy. Brandywine1989 ( talk) 16:30, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
franco canadenses sao latinos e ela tem aspecto mediterraneo pouco germanico..french canadians are latins and she have a mediterranean southern aspect less germanic/anglo saxon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.211.74.156 ( talk) 07:35, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
e a familia dela foi criada imersa na cultura espanhola entao sendo bilingue ela podia ter sotaque sim vcs querem colocar ela no patamar de uma mulher que se finge de outra raça sendo que espanhois sao tao euros quanto a ancestralidade dela — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.211.74.156 ( talk) 07:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
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Change Hilaria to Hillary 2601:540:8203:BA60:3:F95A:CFE0:7891 ( talk) 03:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
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I noticed that the following sentence is not supported by the source in question: "She stated that she spent "some" of her childhood in Spain and "some" in Massachusetts, but had never been enrolled in school in Spain, only spending time there during family holidays.[4]"
The source links to a Vanity Fair article which doesn't mention what Baldwin herself has stated about where she went to school. The sentence should be altered to reflect her statements in the New York Times article, where she does say that she went to school in Spain: "Ms. Baldwin first visited Spain with her parents when she was a baby, she said, and she went at least yearly thereafter. She declined to explain in detail how frequently they traveled there or how long they stayed. “I think it would be maddening to do such a tight time line of everything. You know, sometimes there was school involved. Sometimes it was vacation. It was such a mix, mishmash, is that the right word? Like a mix of different things.” That quote is from this NYT article.
The sentence can be changed like this: "She stated that she spent "some" of her childhood in Spain and "some" in Massachusetts, both attending school and vacationing in both places.[12]"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bamboolucy ( talk • contribs) 02:01, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is not a good article. If it was only not-so-good while still meeting the Good Article criteria fine, but it's a terrible article. I get that "Good Article" has its own rubric, but I don't think a "Good Article" should be an actually awful article. This would be confusing to readers.
It's a bad article because a quarter of it -- the "Allegations of cultural appropriation" section -- is an egregious tabloid hatchet job. My recommendation is that the section titled "Allegations of cultural appropriation" be removed, and the material in it be cut down to a couple-few anodyne sentences and stuck at the end of the "Personal life" section, or something to that general effect.
This section probably doesn't violate either WP:BLP, exactly, or WP:NOTGOSSIP, exactly, but it sure does skirt close to it. Beyond that, it just sucks. It sucks to punch down at this private person, and it double sucks that other media have picked up on this article and spread the egregious and very detailed defamation we're engaged in here. If "a good part of the article double sucks" and "It is a Good Article, which we want to display to the world as some of our best work" can coexist according to our rubric, then something's really wrong with our rubric, and until and if that is fixed, we are not a bureaucracy here and let's fix this particular problem right now. I have more to say, at length, I'll hat it, but it's probably worth scanning if you want to engage.
Altho it's arguable whether the section in question truly violates WP:BLP, at the very least it's skirting the edge, and also the edge of the policy WP:NOTGOSSIP ("Wikipedia is not a newspaper... not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Ensure that Wikipedia articles are not:... Celebrity gossip...", altho the rest of that section does let you get away with it. The woman is not close to being a public figure, she's a rich man's wife who has done this and that and been on this or that show because she is, and wants to enjoy that. And BLP says "Many Wikipedia articles contain material on people who are not well known, even if they are notable enough for their own article. In such cases, exercise restrain... Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there are additional protections for subjects who are not public figures."
Sure, truth is generally a defense against libel, but I mean "We shred this person in excruciating detail, but not in a way which crosses the line of being actually criminal" isn't what you'd want to see in any article, let alone one we want to crow about.
Who gives a... gosh-freaking-darn... if people want to have some fun with their persona. Jeepers creepers, half the people you meet are like "Oh I have some Cherokee blood" or "My people came over on the Mayflower" or "Actually I'm descended from Eric the Red" or whatever. Who knows if its true. Probably not. People put on airs, people say that they played an a band with Trent Reznor years ago, people hide that their parents were poor, etc etc etc. We all have different faces. So? Who is this woman harming, with her chosen face. Spain is a first-world country for crying out loud. They can watch out for their heritage without our help I am quite confident.
But wait. It gets worse. There's a "This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations" tag here, and the media says horrible things about this person which I don't even want to repeat here, and apparentlythey are getting this from us in part at least. We are actively popularizing and spreading this... shinola.... I mean, for marginally notable persons, we are the biggest part of their public face. We are the second google hit on this person, after her instagram. We describe her to the world much more loudly and widely than any other source. And for centuries, maybe.
We are a huge, huge organization read by millions of people and which helps shape the zeitgeist. She is just a little person, a marginally notable person, who has her own inner life and her own reasons for doing things. Writing stuff like this at detailed length is punching down, punching way down, and it's not a good look. Let other people be egregious... scamps... and revel in shaming people. Let the National Enquirer do it. We don't have to. We really don't. We are free people on this earth, and we don't.
You know, there's a lot of facts and other material that we don't publish. A lot. See WP:NOT. We don't have to publish this.
I have been here a long time and I know the counterarguments. You can make them again and will. I know that I didn't hardly cite any WP:RULES. I know about beep beep boop boop, so I don't expect to win this one. But I'd be ashamed if I didn't try.
Anyway, I'm sending this article back for reconsideration until the nothingburger "cultural appropriation scandal" (yes, this Good Article says that, and in our words) is removed as a section and cut down to a couple-few anodyne sentences at the end of the personal-life section, or something to that general effect.
Herostratus ( talk) 06:04, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
.
It does not seem like a relevant paragraph to me. Plenty of topics, people and things in general have subreddit pages dedicated to them, which is rarely relevant to Wikipedia. Reddit itself is not a good source, nor are the people there necessarily knowledgeable. The posts on this specific subreddits are akin to those made my tabloids or readers thereof. The fact that Baldwin has not responded to the conspiracies made on there does not seem relevant either, as most celebrities do not respond to their online hate movements, why should they? The only reason this specific reddit community might seem wikipedia-level relevant is because it is particularly big, but that in itself really isn't that noteworthy. JerichoPD ( talk) 19:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
If the article it documents that she has latin/hispanic roots in her lineage (per grandparents) . How can in the same breath it be alleged that she's cultural appropriating? That would be embracing of roots. This article should be careful about getting caught up in media hype which sometimes coins quick catch phrases solely for the sake of only selling more newspapers. CaribDigita ( talk) 15:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
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Do other editors believe this would be appropriate to add to the lead? "Baldwin's background and ethnic identity became the focus of intense scrutiny following allegations in December 2020 she was culturally appropriating a Spanish background." Any thoughts appreciated! -- Kbabej ( talk) 03:27, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Is her anglicised given name Hilary or Hillary (one or two 'l's)? I've seen it spelled both ways. Pelagic ( messages ) – (16:08 Mon 28, AEDT) 05:08, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
This Page Six article was used as a citation for her birth date, but it has no mention of that so I've removed the citation and replaced with {{cn}} tags. Softlavender ( talk) 08:46, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Update: I added a citation. Softlavender ( talk) 09:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Page Six is a non-RS WP:TABLOID site. If you can't find verification for its claims anywhere but a tabloid gossip site, then those claims should not be in a WP:BLP. Why would any responsible editor reinsert a non-RS tabloid site like Page Six? -- Tenebrae ( talk) 15:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I went to request page protection on this article due to the high level of IP and SPA vandalism. Looks like Softlavender was one step ahead of me! Ideally that will be granted. -- Kbabej ( talk) 17:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Softlavender has changed the 2020 accusations section back to the name "Accusations of cultural appropriation". There is no mention of an accusation like that in the section itself. And even if there were, the fact remains that most accusations center around accusing Baldwin of deliberately using an accent and go not as far as to say she is culturally appropriating. -- Distelfinck ( talk) 17:17, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Softlavender: Yes, I agree we need to balance out the article. I'm going to work more on her career section right now to try and beef that up. There's info out there; I just need to sift through the recentism to get to it. -- Kbabej ( talk) 21:09, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
This is definitely a true statement that she said it, but isn't it a non-sequitur to include this given as this was never in doubt in the first place, she was pretending to not be American, not pretending to not be white. This tells us nothing, it's no different to if she was busted for pretending to be Scottish and then said she was white; the two things are not exclusionary and in 99% of cases they are white. I know that most Americans believe that everyone who speaks Spanish looks like the typical Mexican, but the American definition of who is white still includes Spaniards [3]. It's just funny that the American public only seems to see them that way when they were conquering Aztecs and Incas. Unknown Temptation ( talk) 21:36, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I have found a video of Hillary's mother talking about when she gave birth to her children: [4]. It appears to confirm the birth year of 1984, and also confirms the birth month of January. Starting at about 5:55, she says her first child (Jeremy) was born three months before medical school started, and Hillary was born in January of the second year of medical school. In the video description, it says she became an intern in 1986 (interns have completed their four years of medical school), and in the video she states that she did not take any extra breaks between med school and internship. So this seems to bear out the correctness of the birth date of January 6, 1984. Softlavender ( talk) 01:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
If anyone's got New York Times access, there's an article on the subject's yoga career (I believe that is the focus by the title). It's available here if you can access it. I can't. -- Kbabej ( talk) 21:11, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
The article needs to find some way of correcting some misleading information about the claims of cultural appropriation. Spain is in Europe, and Spanish people are just as "white" as French, Italian, or even many German people. Spanish is a EUROPEAN language, and a EUROPEAN culture. Too many people assume that "Spanish" or "Latin" automatically means something indigenous to North, Central, or South America--- or the Caribbean. This woman h — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8000:5B02:703C:B8E8:C27F:8BEF:5004 ( talk) 04:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
GoldenGoose100 and Trans-Neptunian object - I agree with both of your points. As another example, Latin America includes Haiti but in the United States, being "Latino" generally only refers to Hispanic countries in the Americas, and Brazil can be a "debated" topic as well. But all these "race" labels are arbitrary and socially constructed. On a tangent, look at how confusing America's racial labels are. America considers "Asian" to be a "race" and they're all considered "POC", even though USA's definition excludes people from Asian countries like Lebanon and Israel as being "Asian" and the general "default Asian" in America are East Asians (probably because the term did arise, in part because describing them as being "yellow" is now deemed outdated/problematic). There are many Americans who think that Asians can't have blonde hair, blue eyes, and "Eurocentric features", because they're considered "POC" in USA, when this is far from the case. So all this confusion and ignorance isn't that shocking. Clear Looking Glass ( talk) 07:40, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
That last paragraph in the Response section really needs some editing. I don't know if someone typed it quickly or did some bad copy and paste, but it sure needs some editing. 2600:1700:BC01:9B0:544F:E012:2320:EFE4 ( talk) 00:40, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
When asked by the New York Time to specify exactly how much time she had spent in Spain during her childhood, Baldwin refused saying: “I think it would be maddening to do such a tight time line of everything. You know, sometimes there was school involved. Sometimes it was vacation. It was such a mix, mishmash, is that the right word? Like a mix of different things.” However Baldwin has only ever been enrolled in school in Massachusetts. C240 ( talk) 12:52, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
66.30.47.138 ( talk) 18:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Google search for Hilaria Baldwin Wikipedia page is now redirecting to Alec Baldwin Wikipedia page? Can this be corrected? Guest218 ( talk) 19:01, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
In November 2012, Vanity Fair Spain published an article that explicitly stated that they asked both Hilaria and her agents for clarification about her origins and childhood and they all refused to respond:
De pequeña
Nueva York es la Meca para las personas que quieren reinventarse a sí mismas. Imbuída de ese espíritu, Thomas se niega a dar o confersar ningún dato biográfico. Solo alguna anécdota elegida con cuidado. Tampoco lo hacen sus agentes, los mismos que Baldwin, que se excusan alegando que lo hacen para salvaguardar la intimidad de su familia. En su lugar, Hilaria se entusiasma narrando su recorrido profesional. [1]
Translation:
Her childhood
New York is the Mecca for people who want to reinvent themselves. Imbued with this spirit, Thomas refuses to give or confess any biographical information [about her childhood]. Only a carefully selected anecdote here and there. Her agents, the same as Baldwin, don't either, declining to, alleging that they are safeguarding the family's privacy. Instead, Hilaria gets excited talking about her professional trajectory.
2A0C:5A80:1F06:AF00:EC23:4A8F:9C9C:1B4F ( talk) 20:04, 3 January 2021 (UTC)último mono
References
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Reviewer: Haleth ( talk · contribs) 15:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm starting a review for this article as part of the GAN Backlog Drive. Will be back with comments. Haleth ( talk) 15:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I made edits in this diff to reduce peacock and non-encyclopedic content.
There is a paragraph about the covers that she's appeared on. It seems to be that it would be good to focus on the most noteworthy / national sources. (I generally wouldn't add a paragraph like this.) Thoughts on scaling back to the most notable covers? Perhaps without the dates?– CaroleHenson ( talk) 07:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
The lead section includes this line:
The first sentence seems written in a non-neutral way, and also I am not seeing sources or further development of it further below in the body of the article. I will delete it.
The second sentence, about her accent allegations, I will not delete at this time. There are sources and it is further expanded below. Something to consider by me later, or by others at any time, is whether this section on the accent "controversy" is suitable for Wikipedia, and if so, whether it has due weight, or excessive weight in the article. I make this note here for others to help consider the issue. Thank you. Al83tito ( talk) 18:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
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Change: Baldwin claims that she was raised in a Spanish-speaking household and traveled to Spain annually.
To: Baldwin claims that she was raised in a Spanish-speaking household and vacationed in Spain.
Reason: The source article does not state that she visited annually, and she has never stated that she visited annually. 2400:2410:8CE0:D700:9D21:675D:BAA2:1053 ( talk) 07:14, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
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Add “She claimed she was Spanish when she spoke at the UN, representing herself as “half Spanish, half American” and then later as being “from Spain”. Source- https://youtube.com/m3JvlV9RQdU Brandywine1989 ( talk) 16:29, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
This needs to be added to the part about speaking at the UN for accuracy. Brandywine1989 ( talk) 16:30, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
franco canadenses sao latinos e ela tem aspecto mediterraneo pouco germanico..french canadians are latins and she have a mediterranean southern aspect less germanic/anglo saxon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.211.74.156 ( talk) 07:35, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
e a familia dela foi criada imersa na cultura espanhola entao sendo bilingue ela podia ter sotaque sim vcs querem colocar ela no patamar de uma mulher que se finge de outra raça sendo que espanhois sao tao euros quanto a ancestralidade dela — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.211.74.156 ( talk) 07:41, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
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Change Hilaria to Hillary 2601:540:8203:BA60:3:F95A:CFE0:7891 ( talk) 03:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
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I noticed that the following sentence is not supported by the source in question: "She stated that she spent "some" of her childhood in Spain and "some" in Massachusetts, but had never been enrolled in school in Spain, only spending time there during family holidays.[4]"
The source links to a Vanity Fair article which doesn't mention what Baldwin herself has stated about where she went to school. The sentence should be altered to reflect her statements in the New York Times article, where she does say that she went to school in Spain: "Ms. Baldwin first visited Spain with her parents when she was a baby, she said, and she went at least yearly thereafter. She declined to explain in detail how frequently they traveled there or how long they stayed. “I think it would be maddening to do such a tight time line of everything. You know, sometimes there was school involved. Sometimes it was vacation. It was such a mix, mishmash, is that the right word? Like a mix of different things.” That quote is from this NYT article.
The sentence can be changed like this: "She stated that she spent "some" of her childhood in Spain and "some" in Massachusetts, both attending school and vacationing in both places.[12]"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bamboolucy ( talk • contribs) 02:01, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is not a good article. If it was only not-so-good while still meeting the Good Article criteria fine, but it's a terrible article. I get that "Good Article" has its own rubric, but I don't think a "Good Article" should be an actually awful article. This would be confusing to readers.
It's a bad article because a quarter of it -- the "Allegations of cultural appropriation" section -- is an egregious tabloid hatchet job. My recommendation is that the section titled "Allegations of cultural appropriation" be removed, and the material in it be cut down to a couple-few anodyne sentences and stuck at the end of the "Personal life" section, or something to that general effect.
This section probably doesn't violate either WP:BLP, exactly, or WP:NOTGOSSIP, exactly, but it sure does skirt close to it. Beyond that, it just sucks. It sucks to punch down at this private person, and it double sucks that other media have picked up on this article and spread the egregious and very detailed defamation we're engaged in here. If "a good part of the article double sucks" and "It is a Good Article, which we want to display to the world as some of our best work" can coexist according to our rubric, then something's really wrong with our rubric, and until and if that is fixed, we are not a bureaucracy here and let's fix this particular problem right now. I have more to say, at length, I'll hat it, but it's probably worth scanning if you want to engage.
Altho it's arguable whether the section in question truly violates WP:BLP, at the very least it's skirting the edge, and also the edge of the policy WP:NOTGOSSIP ("Wikipedia is not a newspaper... not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Ensure that Wikipedia articles are not:... Celebrity gossip...", altho the rest of that section does let you get away with it. The woman is not close to being a public figure, she's a rich man's wife who has done this and that and been on this or that show because she is, and wants to enjoy that. And BLP says "Many Wikipedia articles contain material on people who are not well known, even if they are notable enough for their own article. In such cases, exercise restrain... Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there are additional protections for subjects who are not public figures."
Sure, truth is generally a defense against libel, but I mean "We shred this person in excruciating detail, but not in a way which crosses the line of being actually criminal" isn't what you'd want to see in any article, let alone one we want to crow about.
Who gives a... gosh-freaking-darn... if people want to have some fun with their persona. Jeepers creepers, half the people you meet are like "Oh I have some Cherokee blood" or "My people came over on the Mayflower" or "Actually I'm descended from Eric the Red" or whatever. Who knows if its true. Probably not. People put on airs, people say that they played an a band with Trent Reznor years ago, people hide that their parents were poor, etc etc etc. We all have different faces. So? Who is this woman harming, with her chosen face. Spain is a first-world country for crying out loud. They can watch out for their heritage without our help I am quite confident.
But wait. It gets worse. There's a "This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations" tag here, and the media says horrible things about this person which I don't even want to repeat here, and apparentlythey are getting this from us in part at least. We are actively popularizing and spreading this... shinola.... I mean, for marginally notable persons, we are the biggest part of their public face. We are the second google hit on this person, after her instagram. We describe her to the world much more loudly and widely than any other source. And for centuries, maybe.
We are a huge, huge organization read by millions of people and which helps shape the zeitgeist. She is just a little person, a marginally notable person, who has her own inner life and her own reasons for doing things. Writing stuff like this at detailed length is punching down, punching way down, and it's not a good look. Let other people be egregious... scamps... and revel in shaming people. Let the National Enquirer do it. We don't have to. We really don't. We are free people on this earth, and we don't.
You know, there's a lot of facts and other material that we don't publish. A lot. See WP:NOT. We don't have to publish this.
I have been here a long time and I know the counterarguments. You can make them again and will. I know that I didn't hardly cite any WP:RULES. I know about beep beep boop boop, so I don't expect to win this one. But I'd be ashamed if I didn't try.
Anyway, I'm sending this article back for reconsideration until the nothingburger "cultural appropriation scandal" (yes, this Good Article says that, and in our words) is removed as a section and cut down to a couple-few anodyne sentences at the end of the personal-life section, or something to that general effect.
Herostratus ( talk) 06:04, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
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It does not seem like a relevant paragraph to me. Plenty of topics, people and things in general have subreddit pages dedicated to them, which is rarely relevant to Wikipedia. Reddit itself is not a good source, nor are the people there necessarily knowledgeable. The posts on this specific subreddits are akin to those made my tabloids or readers thereof. The fact that Baldwin has not responded to the conspiracies made on there does not seem relevant either, as most celebrities do not respond to their online hate movements, why should they? The only reason this specific reddit community might seem wikipedia-level relevant is because it is particularly big, but that in itself really isn't that noteworthy. JerichoPD ( talk) 19:03, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
If the article it documents that she has latin/hispanic roots in her lineage (per grandparents) . How can in the same breath it be alleged that she's cultural appropriating? That would be embracing of roots. This article should be careful about getting caught up in media hype which sometimes coins quick catch phrases solely for the sake of only selling more newspapers. CaribDigita ( talk) 15:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)