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Under the "History" section (see subheading "Antiquity and Israelite period"), a previous editor of this article used Genesis 13:18 as "proof" that Hebron was listed as an Amorite city in the Bible. Genesis 13:18 reads thus:
Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD. (KJV)
Strong's Hebrew #H4471 lists "Mamre" as "an Amorite". How does this necessarily prove that the Amorites actually held that city at one point? Aside from Mamre being "an Amorite", there are no other references to Hebron being governed or inhabited by the Amorites anywhere in Scripture. If the plain - and the accompanying "Oak of Mamre" - refer to a former Amorite owner, does that mean that the entire city was Amorite? Or perhaps an Amorite named Mamre sojourned there among foreigners ( Canaanites/ Kenites/ Hittites) like Abraham did? If Hebron was indeed a royal Canaanite city (as the article states, without citation, I might add) that was accessible by one of the major ancient trade routes in that area of the Levant, then I would expect scores of non-Canaanite/Hittite/Kenite tradesmen to be streaming through Hebron en route to Egypt from Damascus. Surely some of them were Amorite, and one or more of them - such as Mamre, perhaps? - might have actually stopped to enjoy the scenery as Abram did.
I vote that the reference to this being an Amorite city be redacted in some way. Aside from the possible Amorite origin of the name "Mamre", there is little proof that Hebron was ever an Amorite city. Jerodian ( SPEAK TO ME!!) 09:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
It is not clear to me as to why in the "Post-Oslo Accord" section the statistic of (0.9% of all fatalities in Israel and the West Bank)" was added to "which saw 3 fatal stabbings and 9 fatal shootings in between the first and second Intifada". I can only imagine the intent is to downplay the deaths of the settlers as a minor fraction compared to "Palestinian Suffering". Perhaps this would be better suited to a opinion piece. "To shoot indiscriminately" is a term that is used to describe Israeli fire, "and thousands of rounds fired on it from the hills above the Abu-Sneina and Harat al-Sheikh neighbourhoods". However as just cited it is not a term used to describe the Palestinian machine gun fire into the Jewish quarter. Probably because using this term would require some insight into the shooters discrimination, which I can't imagine anyone had. "Israelis from the Jewish settlements found bordering Hebron (for example Tel Rumeida, Kiryat Arba) continually harass and provoke the indigenous Palestian population." I can't imagine why this does not require citation. I do not understand why Wikipedia editors consistently seek to paint Israel as "The Great Satan", I feel as though the anti-Israel UN justifies this absurd bias with it's continual, Arab and Muslim supported resolutions which rarely have anything to do with facts. The international community which gives peace prizes to Arafat and has the Iranian president come to it's stage with resounding applause to deny the holocaust, is hardly any longer a source to cite for unbiased opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.230.83.106 ( talk) 12:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Discussion links (most closed, included for reference only):
MeteorMaker ( talk) 16:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
i deleted the palestinain israeli conflict section as it was completely bias against iisrael. half o f the items were no cited and those that were cited were cited from well known anti-israeli websites. i call upon the immediate deletion of this article for not only does it have lies but it promotes hatred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.91.224 ( talk) 04:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
In what way does it promote hatred?
Some of these sites speak about the truth. Those facts are about the truth... The truth happens to not be in favour of Israel.
You are not allowed to delete that part unless you can give some good reasons for it.
-- Arsaces ( talk) 11:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
The cited Palestinian population figure in the introduction and infobox recently more than tripled, from 166,000 to 552,000, an astonishing and spectacular change. How reliable is the new source? Could there be a benign "apples vs. oranges" explanation, such as the new figure including an entire region? The discrepancy should either be accounted for or the edit reverted. The figure as of 1997, cited under "Demographics", was 130,000; an increase to 166,000 in ten years, more or less, is believable. A jump to 552,000 strains credibility. Hertz1888 ( talk) 02:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
A customer in Hebron wants me to ship something via DHL but I can't figure out what the name of the country is. This webpage didn't answer this simple question. :-( -- TDKehoe ( talk) 23:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The frequency with which the word is used is irrelevant, an if relevant justifies not using the word based on minimal use elsewhere.
Referring to the settlers as a community implies that it is a normally functioning society of people, as opposed to a militant foothold of 500 radicals, who don't live there most of the year, in a small number of streets.
Calling them a community implies that they are the same as the Palestinians in their in terms of their presence in Hebron.
Hence it is POV. Nwe ( talk) 21:58, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
The basis is as I've already provided, that the term implies that they are a normally-existing community, which they are not. It is also general practice to refer to settlers in the Palestinian territories as such in order to differentiate them from most communities in the world, which do not serve as political tools of occupation. Nwe ( talk) 00:15, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
How about we take a look at how these people are described in reliable sources instead of attempting to determine a level of normalcy for illegal squatters in occupied territory. The BBC refers to them as "Jewish settlers" regularly: [7], [8], [9]. As does the Guardian: [10], [11], [12]. As does The Times: [13], [14], [15]. Haaretz calls them "settlers": [16], [17], [18], [19]. Why exactly should we not call this "community" what it is, Jewish settlers in a Palestinian city? nableezy - 02:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Is the phrase "Jewish settlers" legitimate in this context? I have been asked to provide a similar case elsewhere. Easy, the Northern Cyprus article, section on Demographics, uses the term settlers a few times, to describe Turks who migrated there since 1974. PatGallacher ( talk) 14:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
It is amazing to see the extent to which the Arabs and other anti-Semites will try to deny Jews' right to this city. It is not illegal for Jews to return to their historic city of Hebron and try to take it back from Arab colonialists and occupiers. Everyone except brainwashed ignoramuses know that Hebron was an Israelite/Jewish city for centuries long before the so-called "Palestinian" Arabs invaded in the sixth century. The Palestinian Arabs are illegal squatters, not the Jews.-- FindersSyhn ( talk) 23:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
A geography section would be interesting; NPR reports the city is currently experiencing a severe water crisis, and some context would be helpful. -- Beland ( talk) 01:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed that the city is "also holy to Muslims" as the only sources I can find are from travel guides. Chesdovi ( talk) 13:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
It's in the Hadith... And it's the city of the Muslim patriarch, Abraham. Surly if European Jews find it sacred, then Semite Muslims find it just as sacred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.131.9 ( talk) 00:17, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Though it's holy to jews largely because of abraham as well, this does not mean that these are the same things. To keep it simple, i've spelled out abraham by name and that's why it's holy to Muslims. Accurate, direct, no ground for confusion that way (fascinating that someone who didn't know that hebron and abraham were venerated in islam yesterday -- and couldn't find sources on the matter -- now has such strong opinions about the matter). Bali ultimate ( talk) 12:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I've tagged the following statement.
The State of Israel in the form of the Supreme Court of Israel recognizes that "the territories of Judaea and Samaria" are under "belligerent occupation" and that they are administered on that basis. There's nothing controversial about it. The HCJ have said this countless times in their case rulings so it's unclear who the "Israel" in the "Israel disputes" statement is referring to. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:23, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Regarding this edit, this article is about the city of Hebron, not the settlers group. Chesdovi, you are surely aware that an article exists on the settler's council as you already added the same seal to that article. This article is about the city, which has an official seal. It is beyond absurd to replace the seal of the city with the seal of the settler's council, and it makes no sense for a user to insist that both seals be included. This article is not about the settler's council and as such their seal has no place in the infobox. nableezy - 17:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I tried to add it to the current one and may have to now merge the image into one image. Wwhat you say s wrong. The PA seal is of the PA city council. The CJCH seal is for the Israeli held section of Hebron. How can it not be represented in the infobox. Indeed, more Israeli info may be added as the city is shared and both need to be represented. The End. Chesdovi ( talk) 20:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::::The PA have a seal for the city and the Israelis have one for the part of Hebron they govern. You cannot have a infobox on Hebron with only one seal. Just as illegal settlers have seals for other illegal settlements which feature in the infobox, the illegal settlement of Hebron seal must also feature in the infobox about Hebron. The town is shared and therefore it is only correct that both sectors are featured. The seal of Hebron is the seal of
Hebron PA council and it is used to represent the whole city. The same goes with the CJCH. The Israeli seal also represents the whole city, including the parts Israelis are verboten to set foot in. It says HEBRON on it, so this is clear. You are not helping to make the article NPOV.
Chesdovi (
talk) 09:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Divided cities shows that usually there are two pages to disambiguate is a certain town is split, e.g.
Laufenburg. Sometimes two separate sides form a union as in
Lloydminster, but this is not the case in Hebron. The case of Hebron is rather like
Nicosia, although there is also
North Nicosia. If the town is to remain as a single page, like
Ghajar, there will need to be changes to the infobox, as has been shown in Nicosia., or something similar to
Saint Martin.
Chesdovi (
talk) 11:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC) (Topic ban)
Moshe Gil's book appears to cite a Christian manuscript's reference to (a) the taking of Hebron from the Byzantines in the 7th century, and (b) the retaking of Hebron from the Crusaders in 1199, as two distinct but identical events. In both a later tradition says that the Jews played a crucial role in supplying the Arab armies with inside information to take a a city that resisted facile siege. Certainly many books talk of this during Byzantine times (cf. the taking of Jerusalem and Cairo, to note two wellknown examples). personally I have often suspected that these reports reflect more Christian antisemitic post factum propaganda(of the type: we could have held out against the Arabs, but Jews stabbed us in the back, etc. But this is just my own suspicion, personal guess, and I can't object to it since RS say this. However, a close examination of Gils suggests he is using the same late medieval Latin manuscript for these two events, and indeed the same passage, and this may well be a lapse. Jewish comunities had good reason to help the Arabs since Christians expelled them on both occasions, and the Jewish hebronite community ended up in either northern Palestine or in Egypt.
In Andrew Petersen: " The Towns of Palestine under Muslim Rule AD 600-1600", "Number of households in Towns of Palestine during Sixteenth century according to Religious affiliation", for Hebron we have on p. 127:
Now; according to the present article, it only gives the population in 1538/9...and there it has exchanged the number of Christian and Jewish household! Either Cohen & Lewis (1978) has a printing error....or Petersen has. OR: it has been misquoted. Can someone please check Cohen & Lewis, it they have access to it? And the other numbers ought to be added. (I don´t think if we should add the Samaritan group, though, as there were none -at least during this time- in Hebron). Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 16:16, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Now I have Cohen and Lewis. It is a very technical analysis of the Ottoman taxation registers. It is clear that Petersen has Jews and Christians exchanged in all the years mentioned, as C&L present the data in fine detail even breaking Hebron into its quarters. I can also explain how the numbers in Singer agree except for the year. These were not censuses conducted at a given moment in the modern style but rather surveys compiled using the most recent data from each location. Thus the population data in year 945 (1538-9) of Hebron is reported in the survey of 952 (1545-6). I propose that we restrict the 16th century values to Cohen and Lewis source only. There are missing persons in our table too, for example as well as 749 Muslim households in 1538-9, there were 227 bachelors and 29 religious persons (there is disagreement amongst sources whether this category included non-Muslim religious), also 1 tax-exempt disabled Jew. Zero talk 13:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Parfitt's book "The Jews of Palestine, 1800-1882" lists 32 population estimates for Hebron during that period. Zero talk 13:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
In 1835, Mr Fisk, an American missionary, visited Hebron. He estimated that there about 400 Arab and 120 Jewish families; the Jewish population having significantly dropped since the 1834 rebellion. [1]
I haven't checked the source (1854) citing him but Pliny Fisk visited Hebron in 1824 not 1835, and his memoir Memoir of the Rev. Pliny Fisk, late missionary to Palestine, was published in 19281828, three years after his death. Pages 369-72 say no such thing. I've read his bio Heroes and martyrs of the modern missionary enterprise,P. Brockett, 1854 pp.373-384 just to check for other possibilities, and turned up nothing. A secondary consideration is that we have quite a bit about population numbers without harvesting too much detail, especially when it is, like thi, dubiously sourced.
Nishidani (
talk) 13:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I asked Hertz1888 if he could help on this, but haven't had a reply yet. If you look at many pages like Jerusalem or Safed, you don't get a huge barrage of note-taking on the violence in the recent histories of those cities. It was written in the usual POV tit for tat fashion, with someone giving a grievance incident, followed by another POVer 'balancing' that with some grievous incident on the other side and is not appropriate to an article with 4,000 years of history. There is a separate page for this, the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in Hebron, and in my view most of these incidents should be removed there, with just a generic section on post-1967,(a) the move back to Hebron (b) violent conflict has occurred, illustrated only by events significant enough to have a wiki page already on them (b) post-Oslo accords. I imagine though that a huge POV donnybrook could break out, and therefore think this should be thoroughly discussed beforehand. Certainly, Hebron stands singled out, among cities in the area, for the highlighting it gives to incidents, versus narrative synthesis. Any suggestions? Nishidani ( talk) 14:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I've done most of a general reorganization, save for the last bit- here are some reflections.
--I remember a long source battle to get the numbers up or down. Most sources over the last decade see a fixed if fluctuating population inside Hebron of some 500 people (roughly 85 families). We have far too many sources on this. If we can agree on 500 as the general consensus (so far), I would suggest that (a) we retain the one and best source for that statement and (b) move the others to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in Hebron page. --This would (a) conserve the work and details (b) get a lot of useless templating of one-off sources off this page. ? Nishidani ( talk) 09:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
In the archives here and on the specific wiki page devoted to the 1929 slaughter at Hebron, there was a long discussion on the wording and sources. Most sources give 67 murdered, yet most sources on everything merely copy and paste. I never noticed anything askew until one day, while reading a book by Martin Gilbert, I saw the figure of 59, which seemed odd for such a careful historian. He was apparently reporting directly the figures from the Palestinian Post's reports on the massacre for August and September 1929. I'd also elsewhere, but rarely, seen the figures of 64, 65, aside from the standard 67. So I did a long investigation on the issue, even going to the trouble of listing all the names of the victims, and checking (no WP:OR here, since I drew no personal conclusions, but simply wanted to figure out which of the sources got the facts straight so we could use them). I found out that the differences were due to (a) the number buried immediately after the event 59, then (b) as several of the survivors died of their wounds, increased to 67 over the ensuing weeks (c) of those included in the 67 figure two apparently died, one of a heart attack and another of the sheer shock and age, after witnessing the onslaught. My problem then was how to phrase this. Use 'kill', 'slaughter', 'murder' for 67 is just so slightly imprecise. Certainly 64 (as Kimmerling and Migdal report) died as a direct result of wounds suffered by the Hebronite onslaught. 67 remains the correct figure (I can't account for just one of the three that make up the difference) but it seems 2 or 3 weren't 'murdered', despite the best efforts of their assassins, but died of shock. I know this niggling looks clumsy, and I am not overly attached to being a precisian about such delicate matters of correct reportage of a massacre. It's just that I know some sources, eminently respectable, do report the different figure, and the reliability of the encyclopedia is improved if we give due notice of such dissonances in the literature. ? Nishidani ( talk) 10:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Agh, you wanna just list all the sources here once and for all, then we can discuss, get a consensus for what the article should say...and stake this debate through the heart and consign it to the archives once and for all? I am a neophyte in this area, but did have a hankering to get Hebron to GA or FA as I spent one of the weirdest days of my life there (on a day trip from Jerusalem). Casliber ( talk · contribs) 23:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Brewcrewer. Your edit summary reads:
(rv. this massacre was far more atrocious and hence had long lasting infamy, that is drelevant and discussed in contrmporary times. clearly a "notable controversy" per LEDE policy)
The prior editor, a newbie who, after a handful of edits on one page, just manages to notice of 7000 articles, Hebron and popped in to plunk that bit about the 1929 massacre in the lede. Well, it's not exactly suspicious, but. . .this happens a lot round here, and I think all editors should be very careful in evaluating that kind of out-of-nowhere editing to a page that has a long history of POV battles.
Abraham's purchase of the Cave of the Patriarchs from the Hittites constitutes a seminal moment in the development of a Jewish attachment to the land.
This is one of the lines that nag at me every time I read the page. I think it is now widely accepted that the narrative of Abraham, like the northern Joseph stories at Shechem etc., is embroidered out of tribal legends and mythistory as part of the Judean writing of the Biblical charter 8th-6th centuries BCE. It was, retroactively a seminal moment in much later writing on identity, which however reflected the intentions of the priestly drafters. Something like:-
The story of Abraham's purchase of the Cave of the Patriarchs from the Hittites legitimised the immigrants’ purchase of land in the host country (Francesca Stavrakopoulou,Land of Our Fathers: The Roles of Ancestor Veneration in Biblical Land Claims, Continuum Publishing 2010 p.37) and came to be regarded as a seminal moment in Jewish attachment to the land.(source needed).
Stavrakopoulou's book is very good on all of this. There were three sites written up as marking by their (re)foundational stories the establishment of a purchase on the land, and Hebron was one. Nishidani ( talk) 12:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I have a feeling that the article is nonobjective by being slightly pro-Palestinian. Correct me if I'm wrong, but throughout history there have been more Jewish settlers killed rather than Palestinians, and the article sends a feeling that it is the opposite. I am not making any political statement, that's just what I resent when reading this. 94.159.239.207 ( talk) 14:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Chesdovi. You've just created a highly suspect page 1834 Hebron pogrom, and now linked it to the mention of the 1834 assault on the town mentioned here. All of this smacks of POV point-scoring. A pogrom is a very specific form of violence, certainly what occurred in 1929 was a pogrom. But the events of 1834 were directed overwhelmingly at the Turkish and Arab population, as the histories narrate, and not with the specific intent of killing Jews, which is what the word pogrom suggests. If your slipshod usage were accepted, all death tolls of Jews over 4 killed in war, amidst many other slaughtered citizens, would count as 'pogroms', and historians of history, and Jewish history, are not in the habit of obliterating distinctions. I suggest you do a bit more work on that woeful article, or else it will go for deletion. It seems just tailor-made to provide a link to this page, has poor spelling as well by the way. Nishidani ( talk) 21:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
John Edwards Caldwell, The Christian herald, page 395. Or maybe 700? Chesdovi ( talk) 03:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
The section only refers to Palestinian movement restrictions, but ignores Jewish movement restrictions that previously did not exist in Hebron. The bias is neutralized with the simple addition of the section Restrictions on Jewish movement in H1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.64.223.112 ( talk) 08:38, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Brewcrewer, you really should stop turning up at articles I edit content into, only to exercise your revert right automatically on specious grounds (a) atrocious style (b) bad writing replete with typos. If you find a typo, fix it, as everyone else does. If you think the style is awkward, improve it. It is an abuse of the revert option to elide edits on the grounds of trivial objections. Address, as you haven't so far, the substance.
I almost deleted this, because I'd not noticed it before. What's it doing there? IT's got nothing to do specifically with Hebron.
There must be photos of rabbinical figures or families in the wonderful old yishuv settlement in Hebron with which this could be replaced. Nishidani ( talk) 14:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello,
I still think that in the following text the 'as if' etc. bit is not a factual description but a POV evaluation by Gorenberg and by Goldberg. As such, it has no place there. One may well add a special section on the conflicted perceptions of Hebron's history, but as far as the facts go, the G & G quote is, as far as I can tell, quite unnecessary.
the government agreed to legitimize Levinger's wildcat settlement[131] by establishing a town on the outskirts of the city[132] in an abandoned military base, which was named Kiryat Arba,'as if,' Gershom Gorenberg writes, 'to make the place instantly ancient.'
A compromise solution might be to drop the G & G quotes and to indicate that Kiryat Arba was an ancient Jewish location. But then, that's what wikilinks are for, anyway. :)
Bazuz ( talk) 14:11, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the misleading section/paragraph on the restrictions on Jewish movement in H1 area. The formulation implies a false symmetry with Israeli restrictions on Palestinian movement in H2 area. The sole source of this item is apparently not credible. It claims that "Jewish entrance into it [H1] is against the law." I doubt very much that such a law really exists. If it does exist, the nature of this presumably Israeli law needs to be clarified.
The article further claims that "These rules were sanctioned in the Protocol Concerning the Redeployment in Hebron" which is clearly false. On the contrary this protocol clearly states that Jewish worshipers should have "unimpeded and secure access" to Jewish sites in H1 Area. http://2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/rls/22680.htm
Since the start of the Second Intifada there is a general Israeli military order banning Israeli residents from entering the Palestinian Area A without a permit from military authorities. Probably this applies to Area H1 as well. This military order makes no specific reference to Jews. It is also a unilateral Israeli regulation. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-said-changing-its-checkpoint-policy-1.154424
The apparently Israeli signs from Hebron shown in the article maybe related to this order.
Please feel free to reintroduce a similar paragraph if you can clarify who is forbidding Jews to enter H1 area and on what grounds.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 17:56, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I will put it here instead.
The article says Jewish kids dressed as B Goldstein so why ca'nt we have Arab baby dressed as bombers? Very one-sided here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baybars-hamimi ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
On March 11, 2001, a full year before that photo was taken, Hebron's Jewish settlers had several of their children parade through Arab Hebron dressed up as mass murderers,i.e., in the guise of Baruch Goldstein. Click here and see what a wonderfully joyous celebration occurs annually in commemorating his slaughter of Hebronites who have the wrong ethnic identity. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. I will remove this provocation tomorrow, if no one does in the meantime, since we are here to add material to articles, not fill talk pages with material that is not acceptable to articles. Nishidani ( talk) 16:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
"wrong ethnic identity".... That's why Arabs were against Jews coming to palestina - they were the "wrong ethnicity". Oh well. If thousands of Arabs came to palestine - that would have been okay - but not the Jews!!! Jews lived under Arab rule in the Middle East, but Arabs cannot live under Jewish rule? Shame. By the way, I dont think the arab killed that israeli baby because of the B Goldstein costums. Baybar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baybars-hamimi ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
<- CPT Hebron have some photos here and/or in some of these albums that are free for use via Creative Commons 3.0. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
As usual, MoS has been ignored. Please respond to that concern since you have broken it yet again. Also, what did you interpret as me discussing CC? Tag=images sandwiching text, being stacked, being irrelevant to sections, size/upright, and so on and so on. Neutrality tag is per B-H's discussion. Please do not remove unil the dispute has been resolved. If no resolution seems possible, you will imply need to try harder to resolve them before the tags should be removed. Cptnono ( talk) 04:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Someone deleted what i added yesterday about a jewish cemetry saying "OR". What is OR? anyway, why is it "silly"? I think quite interesting? BB — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baybars-hamimi ( talk • contribs) 11:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
You asked a question and were blown off. OR means WP:OR (<--Click on that link). You are going to be treated like dirt here so I will apologize in advance for it. If you have a point to be made (as in something historically significant) you will have to deal with other editors who want a contrary point given more credence. You should also realize that there you are under undue scrutiny attempting to edit in the topic area that includes anything related to Jews and Israel. You should probably just give up now. However, you can see multiple essays on how to edit Wikipedia. Poke around for a bit and you will figure it out. Don't let militarists or propagandists (you will meet them if you haven't already) dissuade you from editing. You are also automatically assumed to be someone who knows this and will have a sockpuppet investigation opened against you. We can't fight it out since we are behind our monitors with a firewall at home and the Israelis and Palestinians can't fight it out since they are both [insert mean things here]. Thank you for your contribution, Baybars-hamimi. Please just ensure that you are taking everything you write from reliable sources (almost to the point of plagiarism) while ensuring that you don't insert your own opinion in any way. Cptnono ( talk) 05:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I want to add that Hebron is mentioned 63 times in the Hebrew Bible. Where can I add it? -- Baybars-hamimi ( talk) 11:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
If anyone disagrees, that POV Cptono plunked down can be reintroduced, but the next time round, I for one would appreciate the courtesy of someone doing so listing in successive bulleted points the POV issues. I think it pointless to drop these tags in, and then disappear without any constructive record on a page. Nishidani ( talk) 15:32, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
I put: Describing Hebron in 1898, the Baedeker Guidebook states that travellers should avoid coming into contact with the Muslims of Hebron who are "notorious for their fanaticism," and whose children harass Christian visitors by shouting "a well-known Arabic curse." [2] on, but was removed by somwone saying no relevance for a one year? But many other things are reported as in 1876 this in 1645 that? I am sure Baedeker was not just talking about 1898 alone anyway? If it is true we dont include the haraasemtn of people in certain suburbs of Jerusalem, so why here in Hebron? - there is alot of stuff abt haraasment today in the H1? Maybe cause it is a big thing today with big consequences, but i am sure in 1878 it also had big cosequenceses? I dont think it is right that Jewish harassment should be mentioned, while harassment of christian by muslims is delted? Baybars-hamimi ( talk) 17:57, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
This edit, aside by being made by someone who just registered who came straight to this article. is suspicious. The original edit here wrote 'found about twenty (or eighty) Jewish families living there, and I changed this to twenty for the simple reason that Kosover's translation does not make that deduction. The book (p.5) reads:
in Hebron "are living no more than about twenty (eighty) Jewish families"
What that 80 means is not clear. It could be a manuscript alteration or gloss on 20, correcting it. It could reflect an ambiguity in the text between 20 or 80: it could reflect the estimated number of members constituting 20 families. It is nonsense to say no more than twenty and then bracket it with an alternative figure four times that guess, and it is certainly very odd that an eyewitness can allow a range of error 4 times his first figure which he says grammatically was the upper limit. In Gaza the same author says "about fifty (or sixty) Jewish families", by contrast (a minor and comprehensible margin of error). Given this ambiguity, neither Baybars nor the newbie can deduce the significance of that bracketed 80 ( WP:OR). That is the technical reason I have it out (certainly not to repress anything). We go by RS, not by inferences. Nishidani ( talk) 10:58, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The Italian traveller, Meshulam of Volterra (1481) found the Palestinian Jewish community, with between twenty and eighty families living in Hebron[78] and recounted how the Jewish women of Hebron would disguise themselves with a veil in order to pass as Muslim women and enter the Cave of the Patriarchs without being recognized as Jews
The Italian traveller, Meshulam of Volterra (1481) found the Palestinian Jewish community in Hebron to consist of no more than twenty (80) families[78] and recounted how Hebron's Jewish women would disguise themselves with a veil in order to pass as Muslim women and enter the Cave of the Patriarchs without being recognized as Jews
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Under the "History" section (see subheading "Antiquity and Israelite period"), a previous editor of this article used Genesis 13:18 as "proof" that Hebron was listed as an Amorite city in the Bible. Genesis 13:18 reads thus:
Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD. (KJV)
Strong's Hebrew #H4471 lists "Mamre" as "an Amorite". How does this necessarily prove that the Amorites actually held that city at one point? Aside from Mamre being "an Amorite", there are no other references to Hebron being governed or inhabited by the Amorites anywhere in Scripture. If the plain - and the accompanying "Oak of Mamre" - refer to a former Amorite owner, does that mean that the entire city was Amorite? Or perhaps an Amorite named Mamre sojourned there among foreigners ( Canaanites/ Kenites/ Hittites) like Abraham did? If Hebron was indeed a royal Canaanite city (as the article states, without citation, I might add) that was accessible by one of the major ancient trade routes in that area of the Levant, then I would expect scores of non-Canaanite/Hittite/Kenite tradesmen to be streaming through Hebron en route to Egypt from Damascus. Surely some of them were Amorite, and one or more of them - such as Mamre, perhaps? - might have actually stopped to enjoy the scenery as Abram did.
I vote that the reference to this being an Amorite city be redacted in some way. Aside from the possible Amorite origin of the name "Mamre", there is little proof that Hebron was ever an Amorite city. Jerodian ( SPEAK TO ME!!) 09:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
It is not clear to me as to why in the "Post-Oslo Accord" section the statistic of (0.9% of all fatalities in Israel and the West Bank)" was added to "which saw 3 fatal stabbings and 9 fatal shootings in between the first and second Intifada". I can only imagine the intent is to downplay the deaths of the settlers as a minor fraction compared to "Palestinian Suffering". Perhaps this would be better suited to a opinion piece. "To shoot indiscriminately" is a term that is used to describe Israeli fire, "and thousands of rounds fired on it from the hills above the Abu-Sneina and Harat al-Sheikh neighbourhoods". However as just cited it is not a term used to describe the Palestinian machine gun fire into the Jewish quarter. Probably because using this term would require some insight into the shooters discrimination, which I can't imagine anyone had. "Israelis from the Jewish settlements found bordering Hebron (for example Tel Rumeida, Kiryat Arba) continually harass and provoke the indigenous Palestian population." I can't imagine why this does not require citation. I do not understand why Wikipedia editors consistently seek to paint Israel as "The Great Satan", I feel as though the anti-Israel UN justifies this absurd bias with it's continual, Arab and Muslim supported resolutions which rarely have anything to do with facts. The international community which gives peace prizes to Arafat and has the Iranian president come to it's stage with resounding applause to deny the holocaust, is hardly any longer a source to cite for unbiased opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.230.83.106 ( talk) 12:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Discussion links (most closed, included for reference only):
MeteorMaker ( talk) 16:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
i deleted the palestinain israeli conflict section as it was completely bias against iisrael. half o f the items were no cited and those that were cited were cited from well known anti-israeli websites. i call upon the immediate deletion of this article for not only does it have lies but it promotes hatred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.91.224 ( talk) 04:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
In what way does it promote hatred?
Some of these sites speak about the truth. Those facts are about the truth... The truth happens to not be in favour of Israel.
You are not allowed to delete that part unless you can give some good reasons for it.
-- Arsaces ( talk) 11:36, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
The cited Palestinian population figure in the introduction and infobox recently more than tripled, from 166,000 to 552,000, an astonishing and spectacular change. How reliable is the new source? Could there be a benign "apples vs. oranges" explanation, such as the new figure including an entire region? The discrepancy should either be accounted for or the edit reverted. The figure as of 1997, cited under "Demographics", was 130,000; an increase to 166,000 in ten years, more or less, is believable. A jump to 552,000 strains credibility. Hertz1888 ( talk) 02:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
A customer in Hebron wants me to ship something via DHL but I can't figure out what the name of the country is. This webpage didn't answer this simple question. :-( -- TDKehoe ( talk) 23:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The frequency with which the word is used is irrelevant, an if relevant justifies not using the word based on minimal use elsewhere.
Referring to the settlers as a community implies that it is a normally functioning society of people, as opposed to a militant foothold of 500 radicals, who don't live there most of the year, in a small number of streets.
Calling them a community implies that they are the same as the Palestinians in their in terms of their presence in Hebron.
Hence it is POV. Nwe ( talk) 21:58, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
The basis is as I've already provided, that the term implies that they are a normally-existing community, which they are not. It is also general practice to refer to settlers in the Palestinian territories as such in order to differentiate them from most communities in the world, which do not serve as political tools of occupation. Nwe ( talk) 00:15, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
How about we take a look at how these people are described in reliable sources instead of attempting to determine a level of normalcy for illegal squatters in occupied territory. The BBC refers to them as "Jewish settlers" regularly: [7], [8], [9]. As does the Guardian: [10], [11], [12]. As does The Times: [13], [14], [15]. Haaretz calls them "settlers": [16], [17], [18], [19]. Why exactly should we not call this "community" what it is, Jewish settlers in a Palestinian city? nableezy - 02:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Is the phrase "Jewish settlers" legitimate in this context? I have been asked to provide a similar case elsewhere. Easy, the Northern Cyprus article, section on Demographics, uses the term settlers a few times, to describe Turks who migrated there since 1974. PatGallacher ( talk) 14:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
It is amazing to see the extent to which the Arabs and other anti-Semites will try to deny Jews' right to this city. It is not illegal for Jews to return to their historic city of Hebron and try to take it back from Arab colonialists and occupiers. Everyone except brainwashed ignoramuses know that Hebron was an Israelite/Jewish city for centuries long before the so-called "Palestinian" Arabs invaded in the sixth century. The Palestinian Arabs are illegal squatters, not the Jews.-- FindersSyhn ( talk) 23:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
A geography section would be interesting; NPR reports the city is currently experiencing a severe water crisis, and some context would be helpful. -- Beland ( talk) 01:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed that the city is "also holy to Muslims" as the only sources I can find are from travel guides. Chesdovi ( talk) 13:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
It's in the Hadith... And it's the city of the Muslim patriarch, Abraham. Surly if European Jews find it sacred, then Semite Muslims find it just as sacred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.131.9 ( talk) 00:17, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Though it's holy to jews largely because of abraham as well, this does not mean that these are the same things. To keep it simple, i've spelled out abraham by name and that's why it's holy to Muslims. Accurate, direct, no ground for confusion that way (fascinating that someone who didn't know that hebron and abraham were venerated in islam yesterday -- and couldn't find sources on the matter -- now has such strong opinions about the matter). Bali ultimate ( talk) 12:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I've tagged the following statement.
The State of Israel in the form of the Supreme Court of Israel recognizes that "the territories of Judaea and Samaria" are under "belligerent occupation" and that they are administered on that basis. There's nothing controversial about it. The HCJ have said this countless times in their case rulings so it's unclear who the "Israel" in the "Israel disputes" statement is referring to. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:23, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
Regarding this edit, this article is about the city of Hebron, not the settlers group. Chesdovi, you are surely aware that an article exists on the settler's council as you already added the same seal to that article. This article is about the city, which has an official seal. It is beyond absurd to replace the seal of the city with the seal of the settler's council, and it makes no sense for a user to insist that both seals be included. This article is not about the settler's council and as such their seal has no place in the infobox. nableezy - 17:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I tried to add it to the current one and may have to now merge the image into one image. Wwhat you say s wrong. The PA seal is of the PA city council. The CJCH seal is for the Israeli held section of Hebron. How can it not be represented in the infobox. Indeed, more Israeli info may be added as the city is shared and both need to be represented. The End. Chesdovi ( talk) 20:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::::The PA have a seal for the city and the Israelis have one for the part of Hebron they govern. You cannot have a infobox on Hebron with only one seal. Just as illegal settlers have seals for other illegal settlements which feature in the infobox, the illegal settlement of Hebron seal must also feature in the infobox about Hebron. The town is shared and therefore it is only correct that both sectors are featured. The seal of Hebron is the seal of
Hebron PA council and it is used to represent the whole city. The same goes with the CJCH. The Israeli seal also represents the whole city, including the parts Israelis are verboten to set foot in. It says HEBRON on it, so this is clear. You are not helping to make the article NPOV.
Chesdovi (
talk) 09:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Divided cities shows that usually there are two pages to disambiguate is a certain town is split, e.g.
Laufenburg. Sometimes two separate sides form a union as in
Lloydminster, but this is not the case in Hebron. The case of Hebron is rather like
Nicosia, although there is also
North Nicosia. If the town is to remain as a single page, like
Ghajar, there will need to be changes to the infobox, as has been shown in Nicosia., or something similar to
Saint Martin.
Chesdovi (
talk) 11:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC) (Topic ban)
Moshe Gil's book appears to cite a Christian manuscript's reference to (a) the taking of Hebron from the Byzantines in the 7th century, and (b) the retaking of Hebron from the Crusaders in 1199, as two distinct but identical events. In both a later tradition says that the Jews played a crucial role in supplying the Arab armies with inside information to take a a city that resisted facile siege. Certainly many books talk of this during Byzantine times (cf. the taking of Jerusalem and Cairo, to note two wellknown examples). personally I have often suspected that these reports reflect more Christian antisemitic post factum propaganda(of the type: we could have held out against the Arabs, but Jews stabbed us in the back, etc. But this is just my own suspicion, personal guess, and I can't object to it since RS say this. However, a close examination of Gils suggests he is using the same late medieval Latin manuscript for these two events, and indeed the same passage, and this may well be a lapse. Jewish comunities had good reason to help the Arabs since Christians expelled them on both occasions, and the Jewish hebronite community ended up in either northern Palestine or in Egypt.
In Andrew Petersen: " The Towns of Palestine under Muslim Rule AD 600-1600", "Number of households in Towns of Palestine during Sixteenth century according to Religious affiliation", for Hebron we have on p. 127:
Now; according to the present article, it only gives the population in 1538/9...and there it has exchanged the number of Christian and Jewish household! Either Cohen & Lewis (1978) has a printing error....or Petersen has. OR: it has been misquoted. Can someone please check Cohen & Lewis, it they have access to it? And the other numbers ought to be added. (I don´t think if we should add the Samaritan group, though, as there were none -at least during this time- in Hebron). Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 16:16, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Now I have Cohen and Lewis. It is a very technical analysis of the Ottoman taxation registers. It is clear that Petersen has Jews and Christians exchanged in all the years mentioned, as C&L present the data in fine detail even breaking Hebron into its quarters. I can also explain how the numbers in Singer agree except for the year. These were not censuses conducted at a given moment in the modern style but rather surveys compiled using the most recent data from each location. Thus the population data in year 945 (1538-9) of Hebron is reported in the survey of 952 (1545-6). I propose that we restrict the 16th century values to Cohen and Lewis source only. There are missing persons in our table too, for example as well as 749 Muslim households in 1538-9, there were 227 bachelors and 29 religious persons (there is disagreement amongst sources whether this category included non-Muslim religious), also 1 tax-exempt disabled Jew. Zero talk 13:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Parfitt's book "The Jews of Palestine, 1800-1882" lists 32 population estimates for Hebron during that period. Zero talk 13:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
In 1835, Mr Fisk, an American missionary, visited Hebron. He estimated that there about 400 Arab and 120 Jewish families; the Jewish population having significantly dropped since the 1834 rebellion. [1]
I haven't checked the source (1854) citing him but Pliny Fisk visited Hebron in 1824 not 1835, and his memoir Memoir of the Rev. Pliny Fisk, late missionary to Palestine, was published in 19281828, three years after his death. Pages 369-72 say no such thing. I've read his bio Heroes and martyrs of the modern missionary enterprise,P. Brockett, 1854 pp.373-384 just to check for other possibilities, and turned up nothing. A secondary consideration is that we have quite a bit about population numbers without harvesting too much detail, especially when it is, like thi, dubiously sourced.
Nishidani (
talk) 13:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I asked Hertz1888 if he could help on this, but haven't had a reply yet. If you look at many pages like Jerusalem or Safed, you don't get a huge barrage of note-taking on the violence in the recent histories of those cities. It was written in the usual POV tit for tat fashion, with someone giving a grievance incident, followed by another POVer 'balancing' that with some grievous incident on the other side and is not appropriate to an article with 4,000 years of history. There is a separate page for this, the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in Hebron, and in my view most of these incidents should be removed there, with just a generic section on post-1967,(a) the move back to Hebron (b) violent conflict has occurred, illustrated only by events significant enough to have a wiki page already on them (b) post-Oslo accords. I imagine though that a huge POV donnybrook could break out, and therefore think this should be thoroughly discussed beforehand. Certainly, Hebron stands singled out, among cities in the area, for the highlighting it gives to incidents, versus narrative synthesis. Any suggestions? Nishidani ( talk) 14:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I've done most of a general reorganization, save for the last bit- here are some reflections.
--I remember a long source battle to get the numbers up or down. Most sources over the last decade see a fixed if fluctuating population inside Hebron of some 500 people (roughly 85 families). We have far too many sources on this. If we can agree on 500 as the general consensus (so far), I would suggest that (a) we retain the one and best source for that statement and (b) move the others to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in Hebron page. --This would (a) conserve the work and details (b) get a lot of useless templating of one-off sources off this page. ? Nishidani ( talk) 09:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
In the archives here and on the specific wiki page devoted to the 1929 slaughter at Hebron, there was a long discussion on the wording and sources. Most sources give 67 murdered, yet most sources on everything merely copy and paste. I never noticed anything askew until one day, while reading a book by Martin Gilbert, I saw the figure of 59, which seemed odd for such a careful historian. He was apparently reporting directly the figures from the Palestinian Post's reports on the massacre for August and September 1929. I'd also elsewhere, but rarely, seen the figures of 64, 65, aside from the standard 67. So I did a long investigation on the issue, even going to the trouble of listing all the names of the victims, and checking (no WP:OR here, since I drew no personal conclusions, but simply wanted to figure out which of the sources got the facts straight so we could use them). I found out that the differences were due to (a) the number buried immediately after the event 59, then (b) as several of the survivors died of their wounds, increased to 67 over the ensuing weeks (c) of those included in the 67 figure two apparently died, one of a heart attack and another of the sheer shock and age, after witnessing the onslaught. My problem then was how to phrase this. Use 'kill', 'slaughter', 'murder' for 67 is just so slightly imprecise. Certainly 64 (as Kimmerling and Migdal report) died as a direct result of wounds suffered by the Hebronite onslaught. 67 remains the correct figure (I can't account for just one of the three that make up the difference) but it seems 2 or 3 weren't 'murdered', despite the best efforts of their assassins, but died of shock. I know this niggling looks clumsy, and I am not overly attached to being a precisian about such delicate matters of correct reportage of a massacre. It's just that I know some sources, eminently respectable, do report the different figure, and the reliability of the encyclopedia is improved if we give due notice of such dissonances in the literature. ? Nishidani ( talk) 10:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Agh, you wanna just list all the sources here once and for all, then we can discuss, get a consensus for what the article should say...and stake this debate through the heart and consign it to the archives once and for all? I am a neophyte in this area, but did have a hankering to get Hebron to GA or FA as I spent one of the weirdest days of my life there (on a day trip from Jerusalem). Casliber ( talk · contribs) 23:30, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Brewcrewer. Your edit summary reads:
(rv. this massacre was far more atrocious and hence had long lasting infamy, that is drelevant and discussed in contrmporary times. clearly a "notable controversy" per LEDE policy)
The prior editor, a newbie who, after a handful of edits on one page, just manages to notice of 7000 articles, Hebron and popped in to plunk that bit about the 1929 massacre in the lede. Well, it's not exactly suspicious, but. . .this happens a lot round here, and I think all editors should be very careful in evaluating that kind of out-of-nowhere editing to a page that has a long history of POV battles.
Abraham's purchase of the Cave of the Patriarchs from the Hittites constitutes a seminal moment in the development of a Jewish attachment to the land.
This is one of the lines that nag at me every time I read the page. I think it is now widely accepted that the narrative of Abraham, like the northern Joseph stories at Shechem etc., is embroidered out of tribal legends and mythistory as part of the Judean writing of the Biblical charter 8th-6th centuries BCE. It was, retroactively a seminal moment in much later writing on identity, which however reflected the intentions of the priestly drafters. Something like:-
The story of Abraham's purchase of the Cave of the Patriarchs from the Hittites legitimised the immigrants’ purchase of land in the host country (Francesca Stavrakopoulou,Land of Our Fathers: The Roles of Ancestor Veneration in Biblical Land Claims, Continuum Publishing 2010 p.37) and came to be regarded as a seminal moment in Jewish attachment to the land.(source needed).
Stavrakopoulou's book is very good on all of this. There were three sites written up as marking by their (re)foundational stories the establishment of a purchase on the land, and Hebron was one. Nishidani ( talk) 12:23, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
I have a feeling that the article is nonobjective by being slightly pro-Palestinian. Correct me if I'm wrong, but throughout history there have been more Jewish settlers killed rather than Palestinians, and the article sends a feeling that it is the opposite. I am not making any political statement, that's just what I resent when reading this. 94.159.239.207 ( talk) 14:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Chesdovi. You've just created a highly suspect page 1834 Hebron pogrom, and now linked it to the mention of the 1834 assault on the town mentioned here. All of this smacks of POV point-scoring. A pogrom is a very specific form of violence, certainly what occurred in 1929 was a pogrom. But the events of 1834 were directed overwhelmingly at the Turkish and Arab population, as the histories narrate, and not with the specific intent of killing Jews, which is what the word pogrom suggests. If your slipshod usage were accepted, all death tolls of Jews over 4 killed in war, amidst many other slaughtered citizens, would count as 'pogroms', and historians of history, and Jewish history, are not in the habit of obliterating distinctions. I suggest you do a bit more work on that woeful article, or else it will go for deletion. It seems just tailor-made to provide a link to this page, has poor spelling as well by the way. Nishidani ( talk) 21:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
John Edwards Caldwell, The Christian herald, page 395. Or maybe 700? Chesdovi ( talk) 03:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
The section only refers to Palestinian movement restrictions, but ignores Jewish movement restrictions that previously did not exist in Hebron. The bias is neutralized with the simple addition of the section Restrictions on Jewish movement in H1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.64.223.112 ( talk) 08:38, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Brewcrewer, you really should stop turning up at articles I edit content into, only to exercise your revert right automatically on specious grounds (a) atrocious style (b) bad writing replete with typos. If you find a typo, fix it, as everyone else does. If you think the style is awkward, improve it. It is an abuse of the revert option to elide edits on the grounds of trivial objections. Address, as you haven't so far, the substance.
I almost deleted this, because I'd not noticed it before. What's it doing there? IT's got nothing to do specifically with Hebron.
There must be photos of rabbinical figures or families in the wonderful old yishuv settlement in Hebron with which this could be replaced. Nishidani ( talk) 14:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello,
I still think that in the following text the 'as if' etc. bit is not a factual description but a POV evaluation by Gorenberg and by Goldberg. As such, it has no place there. One may well add a special section on the conflicted perceptions of Hebron's history, but as far as the facts go, the G & G quote is, as far as I can tell, quite unnecessary.
the government agreed to legitimize Levinger's wildcat settlement[131] by establishing a town on the outskirts of the city[132] in an abandoned military base, which was named Kiryat Arba,'as if,' Gershom Gorenberg writes, 'to make the place instantly ancient.'
A compromise solution might be to drop the G & G quotes and to indicate that Kiryat Arba was an ancient Jewish location. But then, that's what wikilinks are for, anyway. :)
Bazuz ( talk) 14:11, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I have removed the misleading section/paragraph on the restrictions on Jewish movement in H1 area. The formulation implies a false symmetry with Israeli restrictions on Palestinian movement in H2 area. The sole source of this item is apparently not credible. It claims that "Jewish entrance into it [H1] is against the law." I doubt very much that such a law really exists. If it does exist, the nature of this presumably Israeli law needs to be clarified.
The article further claims that "These rules were sanctioned in the Protocol Concerning the Redeployment in Hebron" which is clearly false. On the contrary this protocol clearly states that Jewish worshipers should have "unimpeded and secure access" to Jewish sites in H1 Area. http://2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/rls/22680.htm
Since the start of the Second Intifada there is a general Israeli military order banning Israeli residents from entering the Palestinian Area A without a permit from military authorities. Probably this applies to Area H1 as well. This military order makes no specific reference to Jews. It is also a unilateral Israeli regulation. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-said-changing-its-checkpoint-policy-1.154424
The apparently Israeli signs from Hebron shown in the article maybe related to this order.
Please feel free to reintroduce a similar paragraph if you can clarify who is forbidding Jews to enter H1 area and on what grounds.
Jokkmokks-Goran ( talk) 17:56, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I will put it here instead.
The article says Jewish kids dressed as B Goldstein so why ca'nt we have Arab baby dressed as bombers? Very one-sided here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baybars-hamimi ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
On March 11, 2001, a full year before that photo was taken, Hebron's Jewish settlers had several of their children parade through Arab Hebron dressed up as mass murderers,i.e., in the guise of Baruch Goldstein. Click here and see what a wonderfully joyous celebration occurs annually in commemorating his slaughter of Hebronites who have the wrong ethnic identity. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. I will remove this provocation tomorrow, if no one does in the meantime, since we are here to add material to articles, not fill talk pages with material that is not acceptable to articles. Nishidani ( talk) 16:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
"wrong ethnic identity".... That's why Arabs were against Jews coming to palestina - they were the "wrong ethnicity". Oh well. If thousands of Arabs came to palestine - that would have been okay - but not the Jews!!! Jews lived under Arab rule in the Middle East, but Arabs cannot live under Jewish rule? Shame. By the way, I dont think the arab killed that israeli baby because of the B Goldstein costums. Baybar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baybars-hamimi ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
<- CPT Hebron have some photos here and/or in some of these albums that are free for use via Creative Commons 3.0. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
As usual, MoS has been ignored. Please respond to that concern since you have broken it yet again. Also, what did you interpret as me discussing CC? Tag=images sandwiching text, being stacked, being irrelevant to sections, size/upright, and so on and so on. Neutrality tag is per B-H's discussion. Please do not remove unil the dispute has been resolved. If no resolution seems possible, you will imply need to try harder to resolve them before the tags should be removed. Cptnono ( talk) 04:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Someone deleted what i added yesterday about a jewish cemetry saying "OR". What is OR? anyway, why is it "silly"? I think quite interesting? BB — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baybars-hamimi ( talk • contribs) 11:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
You asked a question and were blown off. OR means WP:OR (<--Click on that link). You are going to be treated like dirt here so I will apologize in advance for it. If you have a point to be made (as in something historically significant) you will have to deal with other editors who want a contrary point given more credence. You should also realize that there you are under undue scrutiny attempting to edit in the topic area that includes anything related to Jews and Israel. You should probably just give up now. However, you can see multiple essays on how to edit Wikipedia. Poke around for a bit and you will figure it out. Don't let militarists or propagandists (you will meet them if you haven't already) dissuade you from editing. You are also automatically assumed to be someone who knows this and will have a sockpuppet investigation opened against you. We can't fight it out since we are behind our monitors with a firewall at home and the Israelis and Palestinians can't fight it out since they are both [insert mean things here]. Thank you for your contribution, Baybars-hamimi. Please just ensure that you are taking everything you write from reliable sources (almost to the point of plagiarism) while ensuring that you don't insert your own opinion in any way. Cptnono ( talk) 05:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I want to add that Hebron is mentioned 63 times in the Hebrew Bible. Where can I add it? -- Baybars-hamimi ( talk) 11:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
If anyone disagrees, that POV Cptono plunked down can be reintroduced, but the next time round, I for one would appreciate the courtesy of someone doing so listing in successive bulleted points the POV issues. I think it pointless to drop these tags in, and then disappear without any constructive record on a page. Nishidani ( talk) 15:32, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
I put: Describing Hebron in 1898, the Baedeker Guidebook states that travellers should avoid coming into contact with the Muslims of Hebron who are "notorious for their fanaticism," and whose children harass Christian visitors by shouting "a well-known Arabic curse." [2] on, but was removed by somwone saying no relevance for a one year? But many other things are reported as in 1876 this in 1645 that? I am sure Baedeker was not just talking about 1898 alone anyway? If it is true we dont include the haraasemtn of people in certain suburbs of Jerusalem, so why here in Hebron? - there is alot of stuff abt haraasment today in the H1? Maybe cause it is a big thing today with big consequences, but i am sure in 1878 it also had big cosequenceses? I dont think it is right that Jewish harassment should be mentioned, while harassment of christian by muslims is delted? Baybars-hamimi ( talk) 17:57, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
This edit, aside by being made by someone who just registered who came straight to this article. is suspicious. The original edit here wrote 'found about twenty (or eighty) Jewish families living there, and I changed this to twenty for the simple reason that Kosover's translation does not make that deduction. The book (p.5) reads:
in Hebron "are living no more than about twenty (eighty) Jewish families"
What that 80 means is not clear. It could be a manuscript alteration or gloss on 20, correcting it. It could reflect an ambiguity in the text between 20 or 80: it could reflect the estimated number of members constituting 20 families. It is nonsense to say no more than twenty and then bracket it with an alternative figure four times that guess, and it is certainly very odd that an eyewitness can allow a range of error 4 times his first figure which he says grammatically was the upper limit. In Gaza the same author says "about fifty (or sixty) Jewish families", by contrast (a minor and comprehensible margin of error). Given this ambiguity, neither Baybars nor the newbie can deduce the significance of that bracketed 80 ( WP:OR). That is the technical reason I have it out (certainly not to repress anything). We go by RS, not by inferences. Nishidani ( talk) 10:58, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The Italian traveller, Meshulam of Volterra (1481) found the Palestinian Jewish community, with between twenty and eighty families living in Hebron[78] and recounted how the Jewish women of Hebron would disguise themselves with a veil in order to pass as Muslim women and enter the Cave of the Patriarchs without being recognized as Jews
The Italian traveller, Meshulam of Volterra (1481) found the Palestinian Jewish community in Hebron to consist of no more than twenty (80) families[78] and recounted how Hebron's Jewish women would disguise themselves with a veil in order to pass as Muslim women and enter the Cave of the Patriarchs without being recognized as Jews