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I agree. It is idiotic to put squres in place of letters. They did that to many articles.
JTF 23:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. What about people who usually access WP from environments such as work or internet shops where they may not have any much control over their browser etc? Palmiro | Talk 05:54, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Gilgamesh, do you have an actual justification for this article name? Yes, I know the difference between hey and chet, but do you think there is a single road sign or map that writes it that way? How is it usually written in academic texts? (I'll tell you: "Har Homa" almost without exception.) Your unicode looks ostentatious. That's my opinion. -- Zero 13:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
On the "Har Homa Website" (Hebrew only) mentioned at the end of the article, there is no Har Homa, but Homat Shmuel (chomat shmu'el).
Was there a change of name meanwhile? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.54.175 ( talk) 21:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Zeq claimed in an edit summary, refering to the International Court of Justice: "The court never rulled on this area or on anywhere in Jerusalem. If anything the court considered all of Jerusalem (including west) as land that does not belong to any country." As usual, Zeq doesn't have a clue. In section 78 of the court ruling we find:
In section 120 we find:
-- Zero 13:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the correction Zeq 14:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
There is now an NPOV-dispute tag on this article, but no indication here on the talk page of what the problem might be. Maybe that could be indicated? Palmiro | Talk 04:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Would there be consensus for using a formulation similar to that employed on Pisgat Ze'ev, which would state the reality that Har Homa is a Jerusalem neighbourhood (in the practical sense), while noting that because it was constructed on land captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, it is widely considered a settlement? While I realize that this is a contentious issue, I believe that such a formulation would more clearly convey the nature of Har Homa's status. Tewfik Talk 03:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Does Talk:Pisgat Ze'ev and the reverts of the other "annexed" Jerusalem neighbourhoods to a neighbourhood characterisation reflect on some sort of consensus on the issue? At the very least, would anybody object to standardising Har Homa to the language presently employed on all the other articles? Tewfik Talk 06:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I see I missed a small row here. Let me point out that the Arbitration Committee has stated that in cases of dispute, two valid and relevant categories may exist on the same page, citing the case of Golan Heights which is categorised under both Category:Geography of Syria and Category:Geography of Israel. The last thing I want to do is restart that ugly row about the terms to use for East Jerusalem settlements, but I think on the basis of this precedent the people who object to them being termed settlements should nevertheless acquiesce to their being included in the category Category:Israeli settlements. Note that turning Category:Neighbourhoods of Jerusalem into a subcategory of this category would not work because, on standard definitions, no West Jerusalem neighbourhoods are Israeli settlements and a lot of E Jlem neighbourhoods aren't either. Palmiro | Talk 21:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) This is not a discussion about two differing POVs - I dispute your contention that describing Har Homa as a neighbourhood is a political POV that has anything to do with to whom it may belong or what its legal status is. While the Jewish areas of Hebron (or even the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem's Old City, may be classified as Israeli settlements with all that that entails, that does not make their physically being neighbourhoods disputed. Would you say that Ariel's settlement status now means it cannot be a city? Anyways, if you truly believe that Hamas should be categorised differently, perhaps you should drop a note on its Talk. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 16:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Ramallite, I think it is extremely unhealthy that you view this as "anti-Palestinian" "screw-you" editing. Please assume good faith. Tewfik Talk 16:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
No one is disputing that Israeli construction in E. Jerusalem is widely considered Israeli settlement activity - as a matter of fact the article says so. We dispute categorising it as an Israeli settlement since that is disputed, (again I refer you to the Jerusalem Law for the Israeli government's position since you seem not to think for some reason that Israel disputes this) and categorisation is limited to undisputed classifications (that is where Hamas not being categorised as a Terrorist group comes in, whatever you think it really should be). You are additionally trying to present "neighbourhood" as an Israeli POV that needs to be countered. I can defend removal of the settlement category - I would like to see how you could defend the removal of the "neighbourhood" category as not "screwing" me. Tewfik Talk 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Two thoughts: first, in U.S. English a neutral term for many housing units, especially new ones, would be "development" or "neighborhood" but certainly not "settlement" despite that "settlement" may have a consistent definition with new housing units. No one would ever, ever say, "there is a new settlement going up on the north side of Houston", or "I'm moving to the settlement past Rt. 1 in Chicago". They would say "development" or "neighborhood" or possibly "sub-division". Never "settlement"- this is not a normal, customary usage of the word. Second, in the Israeli-Palestinian context I think common usage by many people (not all people) is that any housing for Israelis over the 1949 Armistice lines is called a "settlement". Therefore, it is proper to categorize Har Homa as an "Israeli Settlement" because NPOV requires all views even though this is not the view of many people. This should be noted in the text. The text that currently reads, "Because it is located on land conquered by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, it is widely considered an Israeli settlement of East Jerusalem" notes this but should be changed to a more neutral construct like, "Some people call it a 'settlement' because it is built beyond the 1949 Armistice line. Other people call it a 'neighborhood' because it is built within municipal Jerusalem" or something like this. SeattliteTungsten 18:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not presenting any straw-men. I only replied to your arguments 'that if one category was removed, then both should be removed,' and I several times provided a wikilink to Jerusalem Law, though it seems you actually provided your own links alluding to the Israeli government position. If you need a better source then I will find one, though I am frankly quite surprised that you aren't aware that Israel's position is that East Jerusalem was annexed. I never accused you of anything, and I also never said my argument was meant to "screw you." I did point out that your constant referrals to my edits as 'screwing you' were out of place, and that indeed, your POV was not the only one capable of being 'screwed.' I suggest you reread my comments and cool down, as I am indeed "open to your feedback," if I don;t necessarily agree with you.
Returning to the discussion, if Har Homa were not in Jerusalem and was indisputably an Israeli settlement, it would still be a neighbourhood/village/town/city. That isn't an Israeli POV, but the reality of what a bunch of houses and people is. Now as you say, that many people believe it is an Israeli settlement is noted in the text - the single point which I have attempted to make clear is that categorising it as such when it is disputed is unfair, as regardless of any vagueness in categorisation, this is an operative principle in categorising other things with multiple POVs - like the example of Hamas. It isn't categorised as a "terrorist group" or a "freedom fighter" group for good reason, and not for lack of editors attempting such inclusion. Tewfik Talk 20:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I still don't believe that it is accurate to look at "neighbourhood" as a political term from the Israeli POV that needs to be countered. Is there perhaps another option for compromise that would be acceptable to you? Tewfik Talk 07:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you can add it to Bethlehem category. That way it has both categories. Israel claims its part of its Jerusalem, Palestinians claim it's part of their Bethlehem. Similar to both categories used in Golan Heights. Sounds reasonable to me. Amoruso 18:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not "neighbourhood" is employed as a political term, that doesn't mean that it now loses its primary definition as a description of a certain reality. I personally believe that you are actually confusing the Israeli usage of neighbourhood due to the lack (in their mind) of " Israeli settlement"'s applicability (ie, Ariel is classified as a city, even though we append the "settlement" note about its political status) with some sort of political definition. Either way, that is why I believe that neighbourhood isn't something to be countered (as we obviously don't deny that the residents of Ariel are "people" just because they are also Israeli settlers). As for the idea of a 'disputed' category, the practice on such articles as the Hamas example is to only categorise what is universally recognised, and not what is disputed, since that usually corresponds to reality. Hamas' most ardent supporter cannot deny that the group was in fact designated a terrorist group, while they can certainly dispute whether Hamas is actually a terrorist group. So to in the case of Har Homa: we might think that it is unjust and unfair that some of its land was seized from Beit Sahouris, and we make note of the ownership in the article, but no resident of Beit Sahur will mistake Har Homa for a Bethlehem suburb. If someone referred to it as such, it would be despite the reality that it was actually annexed by Israel and administered as part of the municipality of Jerusalem, and is identical to any part of Tel Aviv or Haifa as far as Israeli Law is concerned. If Ariel is annexed by Israel in some future final agreement, is it still a "settlement"? Is the Jewish Quarter of the walled city also a settlement? What about the Armenian Quarter? Are Arab residents of Pisgat Ze'ev or Gilo Israeli settlers? How about when infrastructure is built by the Israeli government in Beit Safafa or Jebel Mukaber (mostly Arab neighbourhoods annexed by Israel) - are they Israeli settlements? Once we use widely held opinions or perceptions as a definition of reality, instead of the reality itself, we end up falling down a slippery slope into a place where words fail to have very much meaning at all. What I suggest is that we deal with any problems you may see in the article, and if you see some lack of organisation that you feel an additional category necessitates, we discuss that. As for your comment on my shift in attitude, I think that if you reread my statements you will see that I was and continue to be open to a discussion. I was actually quite surprised to see that you thought I accused you of anything or that I had made inappropriate implications about you, though I will definitely try even harder to make sure that no word I say could even hint at such an intent. Again I do hope to hear what you think on these matters. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 16:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The hated Google Test gives 62,000 entries for "Har Homa" and 28,000 for "Har Homa" + settlement. The BBC refers directly to it in that way at [5] in 1998 with no hint the label is contentious. The claim is in the Boston Times, UN debates [6] (result, 130-2 condemning), Journal of Palestine Studies and numerous other places. And we have an ArbCom ruling that covers cases like this where there is a real divergence of opinion, both categories apply. PalestineRemembered 18:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Isarig, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with Palmiro and PalestineRemembered on this issue. Har Homa is clearly an Israeli settlement. What I am disappointed about is that, although I agree with them just by using common sense, neither PalestineRemembered nor Palmiro have not met burden of proof by providing reliable sources proving their point. All they did was give other people Google statistics, effectively saying that the burden of proof is so easy to meet that they couldn't be bothered with meeting it and that others should meet it for them. This is pretty sloppy scholarship. -- GHcool 00:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Isarig 00:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Replacing every mention of "neighborhood" with "settlement" doesn't make sense and I see that it was already discussed, but the personal interpretations like "confiscated from the palestinian state (proposed country) in entirety, althougt 75% where owned by israeli citizens living Abroad" and "this implies Israeli effort to expand borders illegally. " are far from objective and are not even supported by the partisan sources used. I also don't think it is fair to say that I am vandalizing, as if any opinion you add is somehow more legitimate than the previous version that I went back to. -- Robert
Reply: even the jewish state has called such establishments settlements, Neighborhood is in this case a new "cleaned up" word to be used as a bias for understanding the jewish case, the word however dossent resemble the case on the ground where it is in fact an highly illegal settlement. also in the first legal documents regarding Har Homa it was to be developed for both jewish and palestinian usage, this was disregarded as impossible even before it was publicly mentioned the first time. the land has also many times been mentioned in official Israeli documents as "confiscated" only recently have the refrence to "expropriated" been used, nomather i whould like to use Confiscated rather than expropriated as the lather is an civilian term, there is nothing civilian about this settlement other than the civilians beeing used as pawns in an ongooing war. also the "green line" is internationally accepted as borders between these countries, if the green line is basis for a border, how can one justify stretching a municipal border over an country border? thats just totaly wild, say if oslo (Capital of Norway and also close to neighboring Sweden) where to strech theire municipal borders over the swedish borders there whould have been quite a rucus.. make no mistake about it.. it is quite simply "UNHEARD OF" outside israel/palestine.
the case is THIS land is stolen property, it does lay whitin what the israeli government has called jerusalems municipally, but under no circumstance does that rank higher than another state bounderies, ergo as long as the land that this is built on IS another country. than this is an settlement for all intended purpose! if the land itself where to be annexed into Israel, than one chould relabel it into a neighborhood, but that is not the case. so it does not mather what you think or what you whould like it to be, it is a part of another country and thats that.
PS: it dossent mather that the owners where jewish either.. if 200 Norwegians owns huts in strømstad (a Swedish border town), than 200 Norwegians owns a Swedish property in Sweden, it does NOT make it Norwegian or part of norway for that reason..
Best regards ~~Varg Breivik —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 09:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you'll see that it doesn't make sense that one person can make whatever change they want and demand that everyone other change, including restoring the original version, needs their agreement. A few replies to your comment without repeating the discussion above: Israel does not call it a settlement. The Israelis "did" annexed part of the West Bank to Jerusalem (East Jerusalem - including this land), which are administered as part of that city, and as part of Israel. Other groups in the international community call it a settlement and said Israel shouldn't have annexed it, and their position is already included. If it is a settlement it doesn't stop being a city or neighborhood. I never heard that anyone isn't allowed to live there based on their religion, and I even saw a news report that Palestinians with Jerusalem residency were moving into largely Jewish areas like this one because of the Israeli barrier. Regards -- Robert
Reply: Yes Israel did annex some parts, BUT NOT THIS PART! Yes Israel does not call it a settlement, BUT THEY DID BEFORE! what is your point? what you are saying is to vague, it hardly dossent apply in this mather at all. im trying to understand what your conclusion are? is Israel divine to set new rules on border disputes?
Now stop vandelising the article and dispute it if there is anything you have difrent views on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 18:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
That isn't true. This "is" within the land annexed by Israel from the West Bank, per all of thelinks, and none of them say that Israel once called it a settlement. From its inception, it was administered as part of Jerusalem just like every other project built by Israel in those areas. --Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.125.208 ( talk) 19:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Neither of you is "vandalizing" this article. This is an ordinary edit war with both of you trying to improve the article, not hurt the article. Like many edit wars this can be resolved by following Wikipedia guidelines and policies. One of the most important policies is verifiability.
From Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
As editors we may not be able to determine the truth but we can determine whether statements are verifiable and we can usually agree whether sources are reliable. In most cases, if statements are verifiable through references to reliable sources then they should not be removed. Conversely, statements that are not well sourced should first be marked with {{ fact}} then can be deleted if references are not provided.
So looking at some of the elements of this dispute: The sections about the positions of Israel, Palestinians, and the United States appear to have references to reliable sources, so those sections should not be removed. The references are, however, incomplete. Would the editor who added those sections please add the title and author and url for each newspaper article?
I am going to go through the rest of the article and try to mark items that need references and will come back here with more comments. It would help if neither of you would revert the article in the meantime. Sbowers3 ( talk) 19:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem that I had with the "positions" section is not that it isn't verifiable, but that it mixes a few different bits of information together, some of which already appear, and not all of which are "positions". Perhaps someone has an idea for better including any missing information without putting an unfair stress on any one position, and without the awkward format. Some of the other bits that I already mentioned I think are mistaken, and aren't supported by even the more partisan links. --Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.138.248 ( talk) 19:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
major campaigns to justify this land grab has been- extending the municipal bounderies of jerusalem far beyond what is recognised as jerusalem proper and also beyond Israeli State borders, well into neighboring palestine, thous relabeling this Hillside Fort/Settlement as an "neighborhood". the land that belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages where also confiscated, but whitout any reimbursement for lost Livelihood Etc. ... But both the settlement and the extension of the Israeli wall to include Har Homa has effective ruined the life of many palestinian farmers in the area making access to farmland impossible. This land is in turn expropriated in absentia of their legal owners
I encourage both of you to avoid massive UNDOs of material. Try to deal with small pieces of material one at a time. If you object to unsourced material add the {{ fact}} tag and give the other editor time to add citations. After a while, either of you can legitimately remove unsourced material. The corollary is that when you add material be sure to add references to reliable sources. Be careful that the sources accurately support the material you wish to add.
If you disagree about material, then discuss it on the talk page. Provide quotes to specific wording and explain your objections not in terms of whether it is true or false, but rather whether it is accurately sourced with references to reliable sources. Remember this from Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
Sbowers3 ( talk) 20:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think Varg is a little confused on the settlement issue, because even the more partisan sources don't say 1. that Israel ever called it a settlement, or 2. that it isn't located in the part of the West Bank annexed by the Israelis in the 1980s. Current sources and rewriting/updating the discussion of the controversy surrounding the construction is a good idea, and I already added a new report about the US's latest statements and general position. Tell me if there is some other information you think is missing. Regards -- Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.138.248 ( talk) 20:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
IT is very important that this line is rewritten:
"An overwhelming majority of the land (75%) was expropriated from Israeli owners,
[1] but some of the land belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages. No homeowners, Jewish or Arab, were displaced by the project.
[2]"
As it do not mather if Israeli/jewish owners owned the land or not, as i said before, if 200 Norwegians owned huts in Strømstad (Swedish border town) than strømstad does not become subject of Norway. it is still Sweden and Norwegians are simply owning a swedish property in sweden.
what is important and should be written about is how this and other settlements including the wall that fences inn all settlements around jerusalem is ruining the life of neighboring palestinians.
Varg 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 23:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
An overwhelming majority of the land (75%) was expropriated from Israeli owners, [1] but some of the land belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages. No homeowners, Jewish or Arab, were displaced by the project. [2]
The land for this settlement where confiscated from the palestinian state (proposed country) in entirety, althougt 75% where owned by israeli citizens living Abroad[1] (i.e. not Subjects to Palestinian National Authority) and hence it was officially called "expropriated land". major campaigns to justify this land grab has been- extending the municipal bounderies of jerusalem far beyond what is recognised as jerusalem proper and also beyond Israeli State borders, well into neighboring palestine, thous relabeling this Hillside Fort/Settlement as an "neighborhood". the land that belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages where also confiscated, but whitout any reimbursement for lost Livelihood Etc. No homeowners, Jewish or Arab, were displaced by the project.[2] But both the settlement and the extension of the Israeli wall to include Har Homa has effective ruined the life of many palestinian farmers in the area making access to farmland impossible. This land is in turn expropriated in absentia of their legal owners
First off, the text might sound partisan or harsh against Israel, BUT!! if certain actions demands a harsh langue to be used, should one than use a milder langue just to please certain people? why not call a shovel a shovel?.
Har homa is a Settlement by the fact that it is built on the palestinian side of the green line. it is thous a pice of land belonging to another state (proposed), any construction of infrastructure like this on a neighboring country cannot be consideres a peacefull neighborhood. also Har Homa (wall mountain) is built like a fort, it has its own bunker, armoury, military guard barracks, Machinegun entrencments and a anti sniper skirt (wall). in other word it more or less built up like a medieval fortress. these are not atributes i normally associate with a neighborhood, grewing up in norway i must admit, we had a comunal bomb shelter central placed in our neighborhood but that was that. I do realize the situation calls for diffrent measures in a country like israel thinking on the situation it is in as a country, but again call a shovel a shovel.. a settlement is a settlement and all but 3 countries in the world recognize it as a settlemt (the 3 others also does, but have political reasons for changing their view).
also finaly i will make a statement: i am not pro Palestine or con Israel.. i think both "countries" totaly sucks.. how can brothers be so idiotical and fight over what is more or less a sandbox? is it so that, the less one have the harder one must protect what little one have? jews and arabs are both "shemite/semite" people. share and be friends.. peace out!!
Best Regards Varg 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 13:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.
The whole "built like a fort" thing sounds entirely far-fetched, and I've never heard anything like that from any side of this conflict. The other parts just repeat information already included with an extremely partisan flavor. The only new part is that there may be an actual dispute about the compensation awarded, but the sources included don't say. I see that the "settlement" issue was already discussed a lot above. -- Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.138.248 ( talk) 18:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Applied Research Institute - Jerusalem, States that: http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=660
and finally:
The expansion of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal and contradicts with the international laws, Geneva convention and many United Nations Security Council resolutions such as the Resolution 452 which 'calls upon the Government and people of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.' Whereby the Forth Geneva Convention which also states in Article 49 that 'The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies.' The Forth Geneva Convention in Article 174 also prohibits the 'extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.'
http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=478
http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=452
will continue--
Varg 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 00:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
All except the first line are points having to do with either Israeli settlements or the Israeli West Bank barrier generally. The first part is the opinion of a Palestinian organization, one which is already included in the article. I don't see what any of them have anything to do with the '75%' part or with the 'fort' idea. -- Robert
I reverted the edit that said that this place was founded as an Israeli settlement, since no one claims that. The Israelis annexed the land and founded it as a neighborhood, and that is what the controversy is about. Many call it a settlement and we say that too. Also, while June War links to Six-Day war, that is an odd formulation and I don't think we should only include part of the story here. -- Robertert ( talk) 16:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Its not that 'some sources' call it a neighborhood, but that extremely anti-settlement/pro-Palestinian sources Saeb Erekat, ARIJ, and Peace Now call it a neighborhood without a second thought, while no source challenges that description. You keep pointing to a UN document challenging Israel's right to annex the land, but it doesn't say that it isn't a neighborhood. You are entitled to your interpretation, but not when the source doesn't clearly say what you claim, and not when sources from the same side contradict your interpretation. I'll be happy to continue discussing any other part when this is resolved. -- Robertert ( talk) 15:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
There has been little activity on this discussion page for a while, so just wondering, given there seems to be no consensus on other pages covering similar establishments, if anyone would mind either leading with both disputed terms within their context (of who perceives them) or another term such as 'disputed residential establishment.'? Colourinthemeaning ( talk) 07:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I reverted an IP editor's recent change. This issue has been exhaustively discussed here, a discussion which went to a determination of consensus by an outside administrator. It concluded with this text: "The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this." The text here predates this discussion, I believe, and is functionally equivalent. Changes from such text should be made only by a well-considered consensus.-- Carwil ( talk) 19:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Overnight, an editor correctly reverted an edit I made at Har Homa, for clicking the link, he found that it did not provide the information I culled from the article the day before, which was more or less this:
“It was a way of stopping Bethlehem from moving toward Jerusalem,” Netanyahu said of his approval of Har Homa, against US wishes, in 1997. . His acknowledgment that Har Homa was intended to disrupt Palestinian development between Bethlehem and Jerusalem
It could be I got confused, but I don't conjure up edits regardless of sources. Checking, it would appear that the initial report I used was changed or Orwelled down the memory hole, disinvalidating the edit itself. So, since I had a visual image of the NYT page still in mind,
Netanyahu on Monday also visited Har Homa, a Jerusalem neighborhood where construction on land Israel captured in the 1967 war ignited international outrage. Netanyahu said he had authorized that construction during his first term to block Palestinians from expanding Bethlehem and to prevent a “Hamastan” from sprouting in the hills nearby.Netanyahu stood next to maps of Har Homa, one from 1997 that showed its empty hillsides, and one showing its roughly 4,000 apartments today. A further 2,000 are under construction or planned.“It was a way of stopping Bethlehem from moving toward Jerusalem,” Netanyahu said of his approval of Har Homa, against US wishes, in 1997. “It stops the continuation of the Palestinians. I saw the potential was really great.”
Although I have been reverting an IP who is forbidden by ARBPIA3 from editing here, I am dubious whether the Greek Orthodox Church should be in the lead. It is a fraction of the whole story. Actually, unlike almost all other mass expropriations Israel made in East Jerusalem, the bulk of this land was owned by a Jew. There are three pages (57–59) on this in Cheshin's book "Separate and Unequal", which is a reliable source. This doesn't contradict the GOC also being a land owner, but emphasising one owner in the lead like this doesn't seem right. Zero talk 01:20, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
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The linked articles in the last sentence of the first paragraph are to an archived version of a NYT article. The relevant section was retracted and does not appear in the current version of the article because it was false. Also, Huldra was deceptively editing direct quotes from other articles. She may be allergic to the word "neighborhood", but that doesn't prevent Netanyahu from having said it in 2015. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.110.42.125 ( talk) 22:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
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I agree. It is idiotic to put squres in place of letters. They did that to many articles.
JTF 23:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. What about people who usually access WP from environments such as work or internet shops where they may not have any much control over their browser etc? Palmiro | Talk 05:54, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Gilgamesh, do you have an actual justification for this article name? Yes, I know the difference between hey and chet, but do you think there is a single road sign or map that writes it that way? How is it usually written in academic texts? (I'll tell you: "Har Homa" almost without exception.) Your unicode looks ostentatious. That's my opinion. -- Zero 13:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
On the "Har Homa Website" (Hebrew only) mentioned at the end of the article, there is no Har Homa, but Homat Shmuel (chomat shmu'el).
Was there a change of name meanwhile? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.54.175 ( talk) 21:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Zeq claimed in an edit summary, refering to the International Court of Justice: "The court never rulled on this area or on anywhere in Jerusalem. If anything the court considered all of Jerusalem (including west) as land that does not belong to any country." As usual, Zeq doesn't have a clue. In section 78 of the court ruling we find:
In section 120 we find:
-- Zero 13:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the correction Zeq 14:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
There is now an NPOV-dispute tag on this article, but no indication here on the talk page of what the problem might be. Maybe that could be indicated? Palmiro | Talk 04:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Would there be consensus for using a formulation similar to that employed on Pisgat Ze'ev, which would state the reality that Har Homa is a Jerusalem neighbourhood (in the practical sense), while noting that because it was constructed on land captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, it is widely considered a settlement? While I realize that this is a contentious issue, I believe that such a formulation would more clearly convey the nature of Har Homa's status. Tewfik Talk 03:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Does Talk:Pisgat Ze'ev and the reverts of the other "annexed" Jerusalem neighbourhoods to a neighbourhood characterisation reflect on some sort of consensus on the issue? At the very least, would anybody object to standardising Har Homa to the language presently employed on all the other articles? Tewfik Talk 06:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I see I missed a small row here. Let me point out that the Arbitration Committee has stated that in cases of dispute, two valid and relevant categories may exist on the same page, citing the case of Golan Heights which is categorised under both Category:Geography of Syria and Category:Geography of Israel. The last thing I want to do is restart that ugly row about the terms to use for East Jerusalem settlements, but I think on the basis of this precedent the people who object to them being termed settlements should nevertheless acquiesce to their being included in the category Category:Israeli settlements. Note that turning Category:Neighbourhoods of Jerusalem into a subcategory of this category would not work because, on standard definitions, no West Jerusalem neighbourhoods are Israeli settlements and a lot of E Jlem neighbourhoods aren't either. Palmiro | Talk 21:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) This is not a discussion about two differing POVs - I dispute your contention that describing Har Homa as a neighbourhood is a political POV that has anything to do with to whom it may belong or what its legal status is. While the Jewish areas of Hebron (or even the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem's Old City, may be classified as Israeli settlements with all that that entails, that does not make their physically being neighbourhoods disputed. Would you say that Ariel's settlement status now means it cannot be a city? Anyways, if you truly believe that Hamas should be categorised differently, perhaps you should drop a note on its Talk. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 16:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Ramallite, I think it is extremely unhealthy that you view this as "anti-Palestinian" "screw-you" editing. Please assume good faith. Tewfik Talk 16:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
No one is disputing that Israeli construction in E. Jerusalem is widely considered Israeli settlement activity - as a matter of fact the article says so. We dispute categorising it as an Israeli settlement since that is disputed, (again I refer you to the Jerusalem Law for the Israeli government's position since you seem not to think for some reason that Israel disputes this) and categorisation is limited to undisputed classifications (that is where Hamas not being categorised as a Terrorist group comes in, whatever you think it really should be). You are additionally trying to present "neighbourhood" as an Israeli POV that needs to be countered. I can defend removal of the settlement category - I would like to see how you could defend the removal of the "neighbourhood" category as not "screwing" me. Tewfik Talk 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Two thoughts: first, in U.S. English a neutral term for many housing units, especially new ones, would be "development" or "neighborhood" but certainly not "settlement" despite that "settlement" may have a consistent definition with new housing units. No one would ever, ever say, "there is a new settlement going up on the north side of Houston", or "I'm moving to the settlement past Rt. 1 in Chicago". They would say "development" or "neighborhood" or possibly "sub-division". Never "settlement"- this is not a normal, customary usage of the word. Second, in the Israeli-Palestinian context I think common usage by many people (not all people) is that any housing for Israelis over the 1949 Armistice lines is called a "settlement". Therefore, it is proper to categorize Har Homa as an "Israeli Settlement" because NPOV requires all views even though this is not the view of many people. This should be noted in the text. The text that currently reads, "Because it is located on land conquered by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, it is widely considered an Israeli settlement of East Jerusalem" notes this but should be changed to a more neutral construct like, "Some people call it a 'settlement' because it is built beyond the 1949 Armistice line. Other people call it a 'neighborhood' because it is built within municipal Jerusalem" or something like this. SeattliteTungsten 18:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not presenting any straw-men. I only replied to your arguments 'that if one category was removed, then both should be removed,' and I several times provided a wikilink to Jerusalem Law, though it seems you actually provided your own links alluding to the Israeli government position. If you need a better source then I will find one, though I am frankly quite surprised that you aren't aware that Israel's position is that East Jerusalem was annexed. I never accused you of anything, and I also never said my argument was meant to "screw you." I did point out that your constant referrals to my edits as 'screwing you' were out of place, and that indeed, your POV was not the only one capable of being 'screwed.' I suggest you reread my comments and cool down, as I am indeed "open to your feedback," if I don;t necessarily agree with you.
Returning to the discussion, if Har Homa were not in Jerusalem and was indisputably an Israeli settlement, it would still be a neighbourhood/village/town/city. That isn't an Israeli POV, but the reality of what a bunch of houses and people is. Now as you say, that many people believe it is an Israeli settlement is noted in the text - the single point which I have attempted to make clear is that categorising it as such when it is disputed is unfair, as regardless of any vagueness in categorisation, this is an operative principle in categorising other things with multiple POVs - like the example of Hamas. It isn't categorised as a "terrorist group" or a "freedom fighter" group for good reason, and not for lack of editors attempting such inclusion. Tewfik Talk 20:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I still don't believe that it is accurate to look at "neighbourhood" as a political term from the Israeli POV that needs to be countered. Is there perhaps another option for compromise that would be acceptable to you? Tewfik Talk 07:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you can add it to Bethlehem category. That way it has both categories. Israel claims its part of its Jerusalem, Palestinians claim it's part of their Bethlehem. Similar to both categories used in Golan Heights. Sounds reasonable to me. Amoruso 18:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not "neighbourhood" is employed as a political term, that doesn't mean that it now loses its primary definition as a description of a certain reality. I personally believe that you are actually confusing the Israeli usage of neighbourhood due to the lack (in their mind) of " Israeli settlement"'s applicability (ie, Ariel is classified as a city, even though we append the "settlement" note about its political status) with some sort of political definition. Either way, that is why I believe that neighbourhood isn't something to be countered (as we obviously don't deny that the residents of Ariel are "people" just because they are also Israeli settlers). As for the idea of a 'disputed' category, the practice on such articles as the Hamas example is to only categorise what is universally recognised, and not what is disputed, since that usually corresponds to reality. Hamas' most ardent supporter cannot deny that the group was in fact designated a terrorist group, while they can certainly dispute whether Hamas is actually a terrorist group. So to in the case of Har Homa: we might think that it is unjust and unfair that some of its land was seized from Beit Sahouris, and we make note of the ownership in the article, but no resident of Beit Sahur will mistake Har Homa for a Bethlehem suburb. If someone referred to it as such, it would be despite the reality that it was actually annexed by Israel and administered as part of the municipality of Jerusalem, and is identical to any part of Tel Aviv or Haifa as far as Israeli Law is concerned. If Ariel is annexed by Israel in some future final agreement, is it still a "settlement"? Is the Jewish Quarter of the walled city also a settlement? What about the Armenian Quarter? Are Arab residents of Pisgat Ze'ev or Gilo Israeli settlers? How about when infrastructure is built by the Israeli government in Beit Safafa or Jebel Mukaber (mostly Arab neighbourhoods annexed by Israel) - are they Israeli settlements? Once we use widely held opinions or perceptions as a definition of reality, instead of the reality itself, we end up falling down a slippery slope into a place where words fail to have very much meaning at all. What I suggest is that we deal with any problems you may see in the article, and if you see some lack of organisation that you feel an additional category necessitates, we discuss that. As for your comment on my shift in attitude, I think that if you reread my statements you will see that I was and continue to be open to a discussion. I was actually quite surprised to see that you thought I accused you of anything or that I had made inappropriate implications about you, though I will definitely try even harder to make sure that no word I say could even hint at such an intent. Again I do hope to hear what you think on these matters. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 16:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The hated Google Test gives 62,000 entries for "Har Homa" and 28,000 for "Har Homa" + settlement. The BBC refers directly to it in that way at [5] in 1998 with no hint the label is contentious. The claim is in the Boston Times, UN debates [6] (result, 130-2 condemning), Journal of Palestine Studies and numerous other places. And we have an ArbCom ruling that covers cases like this where there is a real divergence of opinion, both categories apply. PalestineRemembered 18:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Isarig, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with Palmiro and PalestineRemembered on this issue. Har Homa is clearly an Israeli settlement. What I am disappointed about is that, although I agree with them just by using common sense, neither PalestineRemembered nor Palmiro have not met burden of proof by providing reliable sources proving their point. All they did was give other people Google statistics, effectively saying that the burden of proof is so easy to meet that they couldn't be bothered with meeting it and that others should meet it for them. This is pretty sloppy scholarship. -- GHcool 00:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Isarig 00:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Replacing every mention of "neighborhood" with "settlement" doesn't make sense and I see that it was already discussed, but the personal interpretations like "confiscated from the palestinian state (proposed country) in entirety, althougt 75% where owned by israeli citizens living Abroad" and "this implies Israeli effort to expand borders illegally. " are far from objective and are not even supported by the partisan sources used. I also don't think it is fair to say that I am vandalizing, as if any opinion you add is somehow more legitimate than the previous version that I went back to. -- Robert
Reply: even the jewish state has called such establishments settlements, Neighborhood is in this case a new "cleaned up" word to be used as a bias for understanding the jewish case, the word however dossent resemble the case on the ground where it is in fact an highly illegal settlement. also in the first legal documents regarding Har Homa it was to be developed for both jewish and palestinian usage, this was disregarded as impossible even before it was publicly mentioned the first time. the land has also many times been mentioned in official Israeli documents as "confiscated" only recently have the refrence to "expropriated" been used, nomather i whould like to use Confiscated rather than expropriated as the lather is an civilian term, there is nothing civilian about this settlement other than the civilians beeing used as pawns in an ongooing war. also the "green line" is internationally accepted as borders between these countries, if the green line is basis for a border, how can one justify stretching a municipal border over an country border? thats just totaly wild, say if oslo (Capital of Norway and also close to neighboring Sweden) where to strech theire municipal borders over the swedish borders there whould have been quite a rucus.. make no mistake about it.. it is quite simply "UNHEARD OF" outside israel/palestine.
the case is THIS land is stolen property, it does lay whitin what the israeli government has called jerusalems municipally, but under no circumstance does that rank higher than another state bounderies, ergo as long as the land that this is built on IS another country. than this is an settlement for all intended purpose! if the land itself where to be annexed into Israel, than one chould relabel it into a neighborhood, but that is not the case. so it does not mather what you think or what you whould like it to be, it is a part of another country and thats that.
PS: it dossent mather that the owners where jewish either.. if 200 Norwegians owns huts in strømstad (a Swedish border town), than 200 Norwegians owns a Swedish property in Sweden, it does NOT make it Norwegian or part of norway for that reason..
Best regards ~~Varg Breivik —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 09:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you'll see that it doesn't make sense that one person can make whatever change they want and demand that everyone other change, including restoring the original version, needs their agreement. A few replies to your comment without repeating the discussion above: Israel does not call it a settlement. The Israelis "did" annexed part of the West Bank to Jerusalem (East Jerusalem - including this land), which are administered as part of that city, and as part of Israel. Other groups in the international community call it a settlement and said Israel shouldn't have annexed it, and their position is already included. If it is a settlement it doesn't stop being a city or neighborhood. I never heard that anyone isn't allowed to live there based on their religion, and I even saw a news report that Palestinians with Jerusalem residency were moving into largely Jewish areas like this one because of the Israeli barrier. Regards -- Robert
Reply: Yes Israel did annex some parts, BUT NOT THIS PART! Yes Israel does not call it a settlement, BUT THEY DID BEFORE! what is your point? what you are saying is to vague, it hardly dossent apply in this mather at all. im trying to understand what your conclusion are? is Israel divine to set new rules on border disputes?
Now stop vandelising the article and dispute it if there is anything you have difrent views on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 18:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
That isn't true. This "is" within the land annexed by Israel from the West Bank, per all of thelinks, and none of them say that Israel once called it a settlement. From its inception, it was administered as part of Jerusalem just like every other project built by Israel in those areas. --Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.125.208 ( talk) 19:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Neither of you is "vandalizing" this article. This is an ordinary edit war with both of you trying to improve the article, not hurt the article. Like many edit wars this can be resolved by following Wikipedia guidelines and policies. One of the most important policies is verifiability.
From Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
As editors we may not be able to determine the truth but we can determine whether statements are verifiable and we can usually agree whether sources are reliable. In most cases, if statements are verifiable through references to reliable sources then they should not be removed. Conversely, statements that are not well sourced should first be marked with {{ fact}} then can be deleted if references are not provided.
So looking at some of the elements of this dispute: The sections about the positions of Israel, Palestinians, and the United States appear to have references to reliable sources, so those sections should not be removed. The references are, however, incomplete. Would the editor who added those sections please add the title and author and url for each newspaper article?
I am going to go through the rest of the article and try to mark items that need references and will come back here with more comments. It would help if neither of you would revert the article in the meantime. Sbowers3 ( talk) 19:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem that I had with the "positions" section is not that it isn't verifiable, but that it mixes a few different bits of information together, some of which already appear, and not all of which are "positions". Perhaps someone has an idea for better including any missing information without putting an unfair stress on any one position, and without the awkward format. Some of the other bits that I already mentioned I think are mistaken, and aren't supported by even the more partisan links. --Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.138.248 ( talk) 19:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
major campaigns to justify this land grab has been- extending the municipal bounderies of jerusalem far beyond what is recognised as jerusalem proper and also beyond Israeli State borders, well into neighboring palestine, thous relabeling this Hillside Fort/Settlement as an "neighborhood". the land that belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages where also confiscated, but whitout any reimbursement for lost Livelihood Etc. ... But both the settlement and the extension of the Israeli wall to include Har Homa has effective ruined the life of many palestinian farmers in the area making access to farmland impossible. This land is in turn expropriated in absentia of their legal owners
I encourage both of you to avoid massive UNDOs of material. Try to deal with small pieces of material one at a time. If you object to unsourced material add the {{ fact}} tag and give the other editor time to add citations. After a while, either of you can legitimately remove unsourced material. The corollary is that when you add material be sure to add references to reliable sources. Be careful that the sources accurately support the material you wish to add.
If you disagree about material, then discuss it on the talk page. Provide quotes to specific wording and explain your objections not in terms of whether it is true or false, but rather whether it is accurately sourced with references to reliable sources. Remember this from Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed."
Sbowers3 ( talk) 20:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think Varg is a little confused on the settlement issue, because even the more partisan sources don't say 1. that Israel ever called it a settlement, or 2. that it isn't located in the part of the West Bank annexed by the Israelis in the 1980s. Current sources and rewriting/updating the discussion of the controversy surrounding the construction is a good idea, and I already added a new report about the US's latest statements and general position. Tell me if there is some other information you think is missing. Regards -- Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.138.248 ( talk) 20:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
IT is very important that this line is rewritten:
"An overwhelming majority of the land (75%) was expropriated from Israeli owners,
[1] but some of the land belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages. No homeowners, Jewish or Arab, were displaced by the project.
[2]"
As it do not mather if Israeli/jewish owners owned the land or not, as i said before, if 200 Norwegians owned huts in Strømstad (Swedish border town) than strømstad does not become subject of Norway. it is still Sweden and Norwegians are simply owning a swedish property in sweden.
what is important and should be written about is how this and other settlements including the wall that fences inn all settlements around jerusalem is ruining the life of neighboring palestinians.
Varg 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 23:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
An overwhelming majority of the land (75%) was expropriated from Israeli owners, [1] but some of the land belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages. No homeowners, Jewish or Arab, were displaced by the project. [2]
The land for this settlement where confiscated from the palestinian state (proposed country) in entirety, althougt 75% where owned by israeli citizens living Abroad[1] (i.e. not Subjects to Palestinian National Authority) and hence it was officially called "expropriated land". major campaigns to justify this land grab has been- extending the municipal bounderies of jerusalem far beyond what is recognised as jerusalem proper and also beyond Israeli State borders, well into neighboring palestine, thous relabeling this Hillside Fort/Settlement as an "neighborhood". the land that belonged to Palestinian villagers, mainly in Beit Sahour and other nearby villages where also confiscated, but whitout any reimbursement for lost Livelihood Etc. No homeowners, Jewish or Arab, were displaced by the project.[2] But both the settlement and the extension of the Israeli wall to include Har Homa has effective ruined the life of many palestinian farmers in the area making access to farmland impossible. This land is in turn expropriated in absentia of their legal owners
First off, the text might sound partisan or harsh against Israel, BUT!! if certain actions demands a harsh langue to be used, should one than use a milder langue just to please certain people? why not call a shovel a shovel?.
Har homa is a Settlement by the fact that it is built on the palestinian side of the green line. it is thous a pice of land belonging to another state (proposed), any construction of infrastructure like this on a neighboring country cannot be consideres a peacefull neighborhood. also Har Homa (wall mountain) is built like a fort, it has its own bunker, armoury, military guard barracks, Machinegun entrencments and a anti sniper skirt (wall). in other word it more or less built up like a medieval fortress. these are not atributes i normally associate with a neighborhood, grewing up in norway i must admit, we had a comunal bomb shelter central placed in our neighborhood but that was that. I do realize the situation calls for diffrent measures in a country like israel thinking on the situation it is in as a country, but again call a shovel a shovel.. a settlement is a settlement and all but 3 countries in the world recognize it as a settlemt (the 3 others also does, but have political reasons for changing their view).
also finaly i will make a statement: i am not pro Palestine or con Israel.. i think both "countries" totaly sucks.. how can brothers be so idiotical and fight over what is more or less a sandbox? is it so that, the less one have the harder one must protect what little one have? jews and arabs are both "shemite/semite" people. share and be friends.. peace out!!
Best Regards Varg 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 13:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.
The whole "built like a fort" thing sounds entirely far-fetched, and I've never heard anything like that from any side of this conflict. The other parts just repeat information already included with an extremely partisan flavor. The only new part is that there may be an actual dispute about the compensation awarded, but the sources included don't say. I see that the "settlement" issue was already discussed a lot above. -- Robert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.138.248 ( talk) 18:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Applied Research Institute - Jerusalem, States that: http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=660
and finally:
The expansion of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal and contradicts with the international laws, Geneva convention and many United Nations Security Council resolutions such as the Resolution 452 which 'calls upon the Government and people of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.' Whereby the Forth Geneva Convention which also states in Article 49 that 'The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies.' The Forth Geneva Convention in Article 174 also prohibits the 'extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.'
http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=478
http://www.poica.org/editor/case_studies/view.php?recordID=452
will continue--
Varg 88.89.23.249 ( talk) 00:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
All except the first line are points having to do with either Israeli settlements or the Israeli West Bank barrier generally. The first part is the opinion of a Palestinian organization, one which is already included in the article. I don't see what any of them have anything to do with the '75%' part or with the 'fort' idea. -- Robert
I reverted the edit that said that this place was founded as an Israeli settlement, since no one claims that. The Israelis annexed the land and founded it as a neighborhood, and that is what the controversy is about. Many call it a settlement and we say that too. Also, while June War links to Six-Day war, that is an odd formulation and I don't think we should only include part of the story here. -- Robertert ( talk) 16:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Its not that 'some sources' call it a neighborhood, but that extremely anti-settlement/pro-Palestinian sources Saeb Erekat, ARIJ, and Peace Now call it a neighborhood without a second thought, while no source challenges that description. You keep pointing to a UN document challenging Israel's right to annex the land, but it doesn't say that it isn't a neighborhood. You are entitled to your interpretation, but not when the source doesn't clearly say what you claim, and not when sources from the same side contradict your interpretation. I'll be happy to continue discussing any other part when this is resolved. -- Robertert ( talk) 15:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
There has been little activity on this discussion page for a while, so just wondering, given there seems to be no consensus on other pages covering similar establishments, if anyone would mind either leading with both disputed terms within their context (of who perceives them) or another term such as 'disputed residential establishment.'? Colourinthemeaning ( talk) 07:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I reverted an IP editor's recent change. This issue has been exhaustively discussed here, a discussion which went to a determination of consensus by an outside administrator. It concluded with this text: "The international community considers Israeli settlements in (the Golan Heights/the West Bank/East Jerusalem) illegal under international law, but the Israeli government disputes this." The text here predates this discussion, I believe, and is functionally equivalent. Changes from such text should be made only by a well-considered consensus.-- Carwil ( talk) 19:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Overnight, an editor correctly reverted an edit I made at Har Homa, for clicking the link, he found that it did not provide the information I culled from the article the day before, which was more or less this:
“It was a way of stopping Bethlehem from moving toward Jerusalem,” Netanyahu said of his approval of Har Homa, against US wishes, in 1997. . His acknowledgment that Har Homa was intended to disrupt Palestinian development between Bethlehem and Jerusalem
It could be I got confused, but I don't conjure up edits regardless of sources. Checking, it would appear that the initial report I used was changed or Orwelled down the memory hole, disinvalidating the edit itself. So, since I had a visual image of the NYT page still in mind,
Netanyahu on Monday also visited Har Homa, a Jerusalem neighborhood where construction on land Israel captured in the 1967 war ignited international outrage. Netanyahu said he had authorized that construction during his first term to block Palestinians from expanding Bethlehem and to prevent a “Hamastan” from sprouting in the hills nearby.Netanyahu stood next to maps of Har Homa, one from 1997 that showed its empty hillsides, and one showing its roughly 4,000 apartments today. A further 2,000 are under construction or planned.“It was a way of stopping Bethlehem from moving toward Jerusalem,” Netanyahu said of his approval of Har Homa, against US wishes, in 1997. “It stops the continuation of the Palestinians. I saw the potential was really great.”
Although I have been reverting an IP who is forbidden by ARBPIA3 from editing here, I am dubious whether the Greek Orthodox Church should be in the lead. It is a fraction of the whole story. Actually, unlike almost all other mass expropriations Israel made in East Jerusalem, the bulk of this land was owned by a Jew. There are three pages (57–59) on this in Cheshin's book "Separate and Unequal", which is a reliable source. This doesn't contradict the GOC also being a land owner, but emphasising one owner in the lead like this doesn't seem right. Zero talk 01:20, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
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The external links "Homat Shmuel (Har Homa) website (in Hebrew)" and "Center for Middle East Peace factsheet" are inactive.-- 77.125.85.13 ( talk) 14:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
The linked articles in the last sentence of the first paragraph are to an archived version of a NYT article. The relevant section was retracted and does not appear in the current version of the article because it was false. Also, Huldra was deceptively editing direct quotes from other articles. She may be allergic to the word "neighborhood", but that doesn't prevent Netanyahu from having said it in 2015. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.110.42.125 ( talk) 22:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)