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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 21, 2020. |
Did they ever release Fritz V.'s entire name? Canadianism 21:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Did Asperger experience any difficulty with the authorities in Austria while carrying out his research ? Given the general environment in early 1940's Austria in which social attitudes to anything that was percieved as a disability, disorder or even eccentric/nonconforming behaviour were (to put it mildly) intolerant it is hard to imagine how such research could have been undertaken in such a society ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.88.39 ( talk) 17:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hans Asperger worked in Nazi state hospitals during the 1930's, the time when the T-4 Euthanasia program to eliminate mental patients was in progress. Rumors based on biographies and personal notes of Hans Asperger spoke on his research on adults displayed "autistic" behaviors, was said related to the T-4 Euthanasia program. I wish to uncover the sources to prove this well-known theory that the Nazis hired Dr. Asperger to investigate mental/neurological disorders. It's well popular myth of other psychiatrists in the research field of autism like Bruno Bettelheim, although an Austrian Jew faced internment in Nazi concentration camps in 1938 was said to participated in the Nazi state hospitals, and Bettelheim was hired a camp doctor to serve Jewish prisoners. Bettelheim left Germany in 1941 to first Australia and in 1945 to the U.S. continued his research in autism and behavioral therapies of autistic adult patients. Now back to the question: Has Dr. Asperger took part in the Nazi T-4 program, even though not involved in any euthanasia? But his role in the Leipzig state hospital was to supervise and study mental patients in a way for Nazi officials to decide on matters...the value of their lives.-- Mike D 26 07:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The commentary above seems founded on an extremely vague understanding of what euthanasia was in the Third Reich. The euthanasia decree was only issued in September 1939. It purported to be for the relief of the suffering of incurably ill people. The decree was withdrawn two years after it was issued. During that time only 70,000 instances of euthanasia occurred, less than one in one-thousand Germans. This is far, far too small a number to include all moderately retarded or moderately psychotic people in the population. Hadding ( talk) 09:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
(It's perhaps rather late to reply to Hadding's comment above, but Silberman (Neurotribes, cited in the actual wiki article) gives a figure of more than 200,000 killed during the official phase of child euthenasia and the T-4 program. 88.144.51.83 ( talk) 23:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC))
I personally would be interested in knowing if Asperger's positive 1944 take on the societal role of people with high functioning autism could have been influenced at all by humanitarian objectives (e.g. reinforcing the social value of persons who might otherwise have been subject to prosecution at the hands of the Nazis). 99.240.139.189 ( talk) 05:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
The paper on the link below has just been published and looks as though it will be highly relevant to this topic. I have no expertise in this field so have not attempted edits of the article myself. https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.164.195 ( talk) 07:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
"Her paper, Asperger's syndrome: a clinical account, was published in 1981 and it challenged the previously accepted model of autism presented by Leo Kanner in 1943. Unlike Kanner, his findings were ignored and disregarded in the English speaking world in his lifetime. His clinic was bombed during the war as well. Finally, from the early 1990s, his findings began to gain notice, and nowadays Asperger's Syndrome is recognized as a condition world wide."
Are they talking about another person here, or should the second pronoun be her? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.170.40.107 ( talk) 20:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
What is the correct pronunciation of Hans Asperger's name? Aardvark92 06:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
If, seventy years after the period in question , no definitive proof has been found to verify Asperberg's participation in the T-4 program it may be time to put the question to rest-especially since he is long dead and cannot defend himself. The now discredited Bruno Bettelheim seems to left Germany in 1939, not 1941. It would curious indeed if he had been allowed to leave after the beginning of hostilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.211.230.34 ( talk) 04:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The full relevant chapter can be accessed here:
[1]
I would direct you to statements by Asperger such as those regarding "the transmission of sick genetic material," (p. 16) although it is worth bearing in mind that this work is very one sided (i.e., pro-Asperger) and other more critical works exist. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
137.44.1.174 (
talk) 13:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The source [2] does not support the claims made for it. In particular note (regarding eugenics) the comments by Marc Bush on page 16, comments on page 11 making clear that his diary was critical of Nazism, later mentions of how he opposed eugenics (specifically wrt the syndrome), page 18 that he was never a "Nazi", and no connecting of Asperger to the "Hitler Youth" at all. The page 15 claim is that one person "fervently believed that Asperger has either been a member of Hitler Youth ..." which fails to meet the requirements for the claim made at all. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC) Also note the source on page 15 states There seems to be no evidence of this whatsoever— indeed, the very opposite is more likely to be the case, as we shall see shortly. Connecting Asperger to Hitler and Naxis here is a nice example of source-misuse. Collect ( talk) 12:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
In this sentence in the first paragraph: "Both Asperger's original paediatric diagnosis of AP and the eponymous diagnosis of AS ...", the term 'AP' is never properly introduced and expanded. Fix please? 124.168.80.92 ( talk) 06:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
My edit clearly needs a fuller explanation. Seriously, who would have such a surname? It makes no sense at all. I am certain that Feinstein has at best found a poor translation and got the name wrong, or at worst just make it up because he couldn't translate it. That's why I removed the source, no matter what the rules say about reference accuracy, ISBN numbers etc. I don't doubt the book says it. What I'm saying is the book has to be wrong. It's the reason why we need another source to back it up, and until then (in my opinion) the reference needs to come down and the name removed. 121.214.29.71 ( talk) 20:54, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
The Georg Frankl mentioned as working with Asperger before WWII must not to be confused with George Frankl, the philosopher, psychoanalyst and writer: born Vienna 12 December 1921; died London 25 December 2004. George Frankl was imprisoned in Dachau but escaped and was able to relocate to England in 1939 (not the USA) where he later became a British citizen. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daisyabigael ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
In April this year, information discrediting Hans Asperger was added to the article, based on the recently published book by Donvan and Zucker. This book has received mixed reviews, see for example [3] (by Steve Silberman) and [4] (The Guardian). What astonishes me is that the article now cites Donvan and Zucker but not Steve Silberman's Neurotribes, making it rather one-sided.
Some notes on individual statements:
Bever ( talk) 13:53, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
The current source is a magazine article adapted from a book. If something this big is true, certainly there should be better sources out there. Are there any official statements about the letters from people who aren't trying to sell a book? TheDracologist ( talk) 23:58, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
This paper might help: Hans Asperger, National Socialism, and “race hygiene” in Nazi-era Vienna from "Molecular Autism", Brain, Cognition and Behavior2018 9:29 213.162.104.171 ( talk) 10:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
There is some debate as to whether or not Hans Asperger had ties to the Nazi party. Should this debate get its own section, or would that be giving the topic undue weight? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheDracologist ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Herwig Czech is an historian sans c.v. for anyone to gauge the article's importance in the historical community. Most important is the fact that he avoided any direct links to the Nazi party. I am unsure if the weight now given is even supportable given the single source. Collect ( talk) 11:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Please see the discussion on the RS noticeboard [5]. It mentions a source from another scholar that supports the study. There's also this editorial [6], which accompanied the Czech study. It was authored by several prominent autism researchers and a well-known neurodiversity advocate Here's the key paragraph from the editorial:
We write this Editorial for two reasons. First, to assert the importance of this kind of scholarship and its relevance to this Journal, which aims to publish excellent research into autism of any kind, whether the research focuses on the molecular, neurological, psychological, clinical, or in this case social aspects. Second, to underline our support of this article for exploring in meticulous detail how a medical doctor, Hans Asperger, who for a long time was seen as only having made valuable contributions to the field of pediatrics and child psychiatry, was, as Herwig Czech’s newly unearthed evidence shows, also guilty of actively assisting the Nazis in their abhorrent eugenics and euthanasia policies. We are persuaded by Herwig Czech’s important article that Asperger was not just doing his best to survive in intolerable conditions but was also complicit with his Nazi superiors in targeting society’s most vulnerable people. (emphasis added)
According to the editorial, Asperger's activities went beyond "marginal involvement." CatPath ( talk) 18:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
The scholarly article is the "reliable source". Editorial opinions thereon are not a "reliable source" for claims of fact. Collect ( talk) 21:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
I just got done watching Professor Sheffer deliver a lecture on her book on C-SPAN ( link), she's a history professor (specializing in German history) - 1st at Stanford, now at U C Berkeley. I now have no question about the general question of Asperger's knowledge of and indirect participation in Nazi killing of children. But she doesn't overstate the case (I probably just did - it's not very simple). But my question is simple - our article says
"Edith Sheffer, a German historian,..."
which sounds to me like she was born in Germany. I doubt it, but can't find a CV that gives her place of birth. She speaks 100% idiomatic English with an American accent. Smallbones( smalltalk) 20:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Dr. A worked closely with SOS_Children's_Villages and developed programs and training to help kids with aspects of neuro-diverstiy. Such programs were established in primary schools and in 1962 I benefited greatly from them. His work was well known to doctors and many teachers. His work was at hand at the house library of my engineering course, TGM Vienna. Evidence should not be hard to find in Austrian records of the education ministry or 'Stadtschulrat'. I live in Australia now and have no contacts in 'the field'. So evidence is not at hand for me.
Ing.walter.hartmann ( talk) 04:42, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I removed a source that was relevant to the article but didn't seem to back up any specific claims. Leaving the source here in case someone wishes to reintroduce it to a more specific paragraph:
– Þjarkur (talk) 20:04, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, but it would be better to check Asperger's place of birth and his location in his early years of life. The article says he was born in Vienna e raised in a town "not far away" from Vienna. Elsewhere I find that he instead was born and raised in Hausbrunn, a small town 80 km away from Vienna (which in a small country such as Austria is not considered "near" to the capital). Can you please check?
is there an accessible source for such a ... whimsical ... adjective? -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:AD20:B600:FF9E:4E34 ( talk) 00:27, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi!, I tried to put into the infobox Franz Hamburger as "Influence" as I put on Hamburger's article that he influenced Asperger, but it is not allowed into the Asperger's current infobox. Can it be fixed without changing infobox? Thanks in advance and I hope to have been clear. Kindest regards. CoryGlee ( talk) 15:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
This article contains a translation of Hans Asperger from fr.wikipedia. |
The French counterpart of this article has a lot more information on him. I have updated the English article by translating the information from the French one. So far, I have only updated the introduction, but I intend to continue updating the article via the translated information. Tbrod063 ( talk) 07:35, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
'The British psychiatrist Lorna Wing and the anthropologist Dean Falk consider that Hans Asperger's Catholic convictions are incompatible with the voluntary sending of children to extermination programs.'
This opinion goes without saying. Is the intended meaning of this passage that - in the view of Wing and Falk - Asperger's Catholic beliefs would have prevented his involvement in a program of extermination of disabled or neurodivergent children?
Regards to all Notreallydavid ( talk) 22:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hans Asperger article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 21, 2020. |
Did they ever release Fritz V.'s entire name? Canadianism 21:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Did Asperger experience any difficulty with the authorities in Austria while carrying out his research ? Given the general environment in early 1940's Austria in which social attitudes to anything that was percieved as a disability, disorder or even eccentric/nonconforming behaviour were (to put it mildly) intolerant it is hard to imagine how such research could have been undertaken in such a society ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.88.39 ( talk) 17:31, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Hans Asperger worked in Nazi state hospitals during the 1930's, the time when the T-4 Euthanasia program to eliminate mental patients was in progress. Rumors based on biographies and personal notes of Hans Asperger spoke on his research on adults displayed "autistic" behaviors, was said related to the T-4 Euthanasia program. I wish to uncover the sources to prove this well-known theory that the Nazis hired Dr. Asperger to investigate mental/neurological disorders. It's well popular myth of other psychiatrists in the research field of autism like Bruno Bettelheim, although an Austrian Jew faced internment in Nazi concentration camps in 1938 was said to participated in the Nazi state hospitals, and Bettelheim was hired a camp doctor to serve Jewish prisoners. Bettelheim left Germany in 1941 to first Australia and in 1945 to the U.S. continued his research in autism and behavioral therapies of autistic adult patients. Now back to the question: Has Dr. Asperger took part in the Nazi T-4 program, even though not involved in any euthanasia? But his role in the Leipzig state hospital was to supervise and study mental patients in a way for Nazi officials to decide on matters...the value of their lives.-- Mike D 26 07:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The commentary above seems founded on an extremely vague understanding of what euthanasia was in the Third Reich. The euthanasia decree was only issued in September 1939. It purported to be for the relief of the suffering of incurably ill people. The decree was withdrawn two years after it was issued. During that time only 70,000 instances of euthanasia occurred, less than one in one-thousand Germans. This is far, far too small a number to include all moderately retarded or moderately psychotic people in the population. Hadding ( talk) 09:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
(It's perhaps rather late to reply to Hadding's comment above, but Silberman (Neurotribes, cited in the actual wiki article) gives a figure of more than 200,000 killed during the official phase of child euthenasia and the T-4 program. 88.144.51.83 ( talk) 23:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC))
I personally would be interested in knowing if Asperger's positive 1944 take on the societal role of people with high functioning autism could have been influenced at all by humanitarian objectives (e.g. reinforcing the social value of persons who might otherwise have been subject to prosecution at the hands of the Nazis). 99.240.139.189 ( talk) 05:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
The paper on the link below has just been published and looks as though it will be highly relevant to this topic. I have no expertise in this field so have not attempted edits of the article myself. https://molecularautism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13229-018-0208-6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.26.164.195 ( talk) 07:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
"Her paper, Asperger's syndrome: a clinical account, was published in 1981 and it challenged the previously accepted model of autism presented by Leo Kanner in 1943. Unlike Kanner, his findings were ignored and disregarded in the English speaking world in his lifetime. His clinic was bombed during the war as well. Finally, from the early 1990s, his findings began to gain notice, and nowadays Asperger's Syndrome is recognized as a condition world wide."
Are they talking about another person here, or should the second pronoun be her? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.170.40.107 ( talk) 20:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
What is the correct pronunciation of Hans Asperger's name? Aardvark92 06:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
If, seventy years after the period in question , no definitive proof has been found to verify Asperberg's participation in the T-4 program it may be time to put the question to rest-especially since he is long dead and cannot defend himself. The now discredited Bruno Bettelheim seems to left Germany in 1939, not 1941. It would curious indeed if he had been allowed to leave after the beginning of hostilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.211.230.34 ( talk) 04:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The full relevant chapter can be accessed here:
[1]
I would direct you to statements by Asperger such as those regarding "the transmission of sick genetic material," (p. 16) although it is worth bearing in mind that this work is very one sided (i.e., pro-Asperger) and other more critical works exist. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
137.44.1.174 (
talk) 13:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The source [2] does not support the claims made for it. In particular note (regarding eugenics) the comments by Marc Bush on page 16, comments on page 11 making clear that his diary was critical of Nazism, later mentions of how he opposed eugenics (specifically wrt the syndrome), page 18 that he was never a "Nazi", and no connecting of Asperger to the "Hitler Youth" at all. The page 15 claim is that one person "fervently believed that Asperger has either been a member of Hitler Youth ..." which fails to meet the requirements for the claim made at all. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 12:17, 4 April 2012 (UTC) Also note the source on page 15 states There seems to be no evidence of this whatsoever— indeed, the very opposite is more likely to be the case, as we shall see shortly. Connecting Asperger to Hitler and Naxis here is a nice example of source-misuse. Collect ( talk) 12:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
In this sentence in the first paragraph: "Both Asperger's original paediatric diagnosis of AP and the eponymous diagnosis of AS ...", the term 'AP' is never properly introduced and expanded. Fix please? 124.168.80.92 ( talk) 06:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
My edit clearly needs a fuller explanation. Seriously, who would have such a surname? It makes no sense at all. I am certain that Feinstein has at best found a poor translation and got the name wrong, or at worst just make it up because he couldn't translate it. That's why I removed the source, no matter what the rules say about reference accuracy, ISBN numbers etc. I don't doubt the book says it. What I'm saying is the book has to be wrong. It's the reason why we need another source to back it up, and until then (in my opinion) the reference needs to come down and the name removed. 121.214.29.71 ( talk) 20:54, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
The Georg Frankl mentioned as working with Asperger before WWII must not to be confused with George Frankl, the philosopher, psychoanalyst and writer: born Vienna 12 December 1921; died London 25 December 2004. George Frankl was imprisoned in Dachau but escaped and was able to relocate to England in 1939 (not the USA) where he later became a British citizen. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daisyabigael ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
In April this year, information discrediting Hans Asperger was added to the article, based on the recently published book by Donvan and Zucker. This book has received mixed reviews, see for example [3] (by Steve Silberman) and [4] (The Guardian). What astonishes me is that the article now cites Donvan and Zucker but not Steve Silberman's Neurotribes, making it rather one-sided.
Some notes on individual statements:
Bever ( talk) 13:53, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
The current source is a magazine article adapted from a book. If something this big is true, certainly there should be better sources out there. Are there any official statements about the letters from people who aren't trying to sell a book? TheDracologist ( talk) 23:58, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
This paper might help: Hans Asperger, National Socialism, and “race hygiene” in Nazi-era Vienna from "Molecular Autism", Brain, Cognition and Behavior2018 9:29 213.162.104.171 ( talk) 10:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
There is some debate as to whether or not Hans Asperger had ties to the Nazi party. Should this debate get its own section, or would that be giving the topic undue weight? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheDracologist ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Herwig Czech is an historian sans c.v. for anyone to gauge the article's importance in the historical community. Most important is the fact that he avoided any direct links to the Nazi party. I am unsure if the weight now given is even supportable given the single source. Collect ( talk) 11:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Please see the discussion on the RS noticeboard [5]. It mentions a source from another scholar that supports the study. There's also this editorial [6], which accompanied the Czech study. It was authored by several prominent autism researchers and a well-known neurodiversity advocate Here's the key paragraph from the editorial:
We write this Editorial for two reasons. First, to assert the importance of this kind of scholarship and its relevance to this Journal, which aims to publish excellent research into autism of any kind, whether the research focuses on the molecular, neurological, psychological, clinical, or in this case social aspects. Second, to underline our support of this article for exploring in meticulous detail how a medical doctor, Hans Asperger, who for a long time was seen as only having made valuable contributions to the field of pediatrics and child psychiatry, was, as Herwig Czech’s newly unearthed evidence shows, also guilty of actively assisting the Nazis in their abhorrent eugenics and euthanasia policies. We are persuaded by Herwig Czech’s important article that Asperger was not just doing his best to survive in intolerable conditions but was also complicit with his Nazi superiors in targeting society’s most vulnerable people. (emphasis added)
According to the editorial, Asperger's activities went beyond "marginal involvement." CatPath ( talk) 18:13, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
The scholarly article is the "reliable source". Editorial opinions thereon are not a "reliable source" for claims of fact. Collect ( talk) 21:42, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
I just got done watching Professor Sheffer deliver a lecture on her book on C-SPAN ( link), she's a history professor (specializing in German history) - 1st at Stanford, now at U C Berkeley. I now have no question about the general question of Asperger's knowledge of and indirect participation in Nazi killing of children. But she doesn't overstate the case (I probably just did - it's not very simple). But my question is simple - our article says
"Edith Sheffer, a German historian,..."
which sounds to me like she was born in Germany. I doubt it, but can't find a CV that gives her place of birth. She speaks 100% idiomatic English with an American accent. Smallbones( smalltalk) 20:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
Dr. A worked closely with SOS_Children's_Villages and developed programs and training to help kids with aspects of neuro-diverstiy. Such programs were established in primary schools and in 1962 I benefited greatly from them. His work was well known to doctors and many teachers. His work was at hand at the house library of my engineering course, TGM Vienna. Evidence should not be hard to find in Austrian records of the education ministry or 'Stadtschulrat'. I live in Australia now and have no contacts in 'the field'. So evidence is not at hand for me.
Ing.walter.hartmann ( talk) 04:42, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I removed a source that was relevant to the article but didn't seem to back up any specific claims. Leaving the source here in case someone wishes to reintroduce it to a more specific paragraph:
– Þjarkur (talk) 20:04, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, but it would be better to check Asperger's place of birth and his location in his early years of life. The article says he was born in Vienna e raised in a town "not far away" from Vienna. Elsewhere I find that he instead was born and raised in Hausbrunn, a small town 80 km away from Vienna (which in a small country such as Austria is not considered "near" to the capital). Can you please check?
is there an accessible source for such a ... whimsical ... adjective? -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:AD20:B600:FF9E:4E34 ( talk) 00:27, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi!, I tried to put into the infobox Franz Hamburger as "Influence" as I put on Hamburger's article that he influenced Asperger, but it is not allowed into the Asperger's current infobox. Can it be fixed without changing infobox? Thanks in advance and I hope to have been clear. Kindest regards. CoryGlee ( talk) 15:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
This article contains a translation of Hans Asperger from fr.wikipedia. |
The French counterpart of this article has a lot more information on him. I have updated the English article by translating the information from the French one. So far, I have only updated the introduction, but I intend to continue updating the article via the translated information. Tbrod063 ( talk) 07:35, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
'The British psychiatrist Lorna Wing and the anthropologist Dean Falk consider that Hans Asperger's Catholic convictions are incompatible with the voluntary sending of children to extermination programs.'
This opinion goes without saying. Is the intended meaning of this passage that - in the view of Wing and Falk - Asperger's Catholic beliefs would have prevented his involvement in a program of extermination of disabled or neurodivergent children?
Regards to all Notreallydavid ( talk) 22:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)