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The result of the move request was: moved. DrKiernan ( talk) 17:53, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
– A user moved the pages of the Japanese Imperial Family without any discussion. As an administrator he should know that it was better to a start a discussion on the talk page. His reason for changing the titles was the official website of Imperial Household Agency, because it refers to them by their imperial titles like this: HIH Prince/ss X (similar to HRH The Prince of Orange, etc). Well on Wikipedia the royal family members' articles are titled like this: "Name, Prince of X". British royal family's website also refers to them by their titles like HRH The Prince of Wales but on Wikipedia his article's title is Charles, Prince of Wales. Most of the articles of royal families are titled like this, so it is a kind of rule. Even Japanese Wikipedia includes the names of their royals on its articles' headings. Takahito, Prince Mikasa was moved to Prince Mikasa etc. It also misleads that his name is Mikasa when in fact that is his title. In Japan he is known as Prince Mikasa (in Japanese) similar to how the Prince William is known as Duke of Cambridge even though his given name is Takahito. There are others although Aiko, Princess Toshi has not been moved. Aiko, Princess Toshi is a good title because it combines her name with her title of Princess Toshi. Also if the Japanese succession rules change in favor of Princess Aiko to become empress, then the current Princess Akishino's son becomes 2nd Prince Akishino after his father's death and his wife will be styled as Princess Akishino. Actually, if Prince Mikasa's son, Prince Tomohito, didn't die sooner than his father, he would become Prince Mikasa and his wife would become Princess Mikasa. If Hirohito's other brothers had sons, they would carry on their fathers' titles now. It seems the titles are hereditary but for example Nobuhito, Prince Takamatsu, was moved to Prince Takamatsu while it has been the second creation of this title and he hasn't been the only person to use it. Unfortunately most of the members of the imperial family are females currently and these titles can't be used by them after their fathers' deaths. But all of these imperial titles can become recreated for a new prince to start a branch of the Imperial Family. So it's better to use their first names before their titles to avoid from confusing in the future. Besides, many sites and blogs refer to them by first name or full name with the title. Keivan.f Talk 18:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
I saw this discussion here now. I do not agree with it, because you are inventing a format that is incorrect. Gryffindor ( talk) 09:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
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The Japanese official sources, such as the Imperial Household Agency, refers to him as the Crown Prince. In a manual of the Imperial transition terminology's English translation he is also designated to be known as the CP. 89.64.31.129 ( talk • contribs) 30 April 2019
The result of the move request was: In this rambling discussion there was some support for a move but no consensus for any particular title. A future discussion might work better if a concrete proposal is made. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 18:56, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
– An official statement published by the Imperial Household Agency refers to the couple as His Imperial Highness The Crown Prince and Her Imperial Highness The Crown Princess. Meanwhile, the official biography of the couple refers to them as Their Imperial Highnesses Crown Prince and Crown Princess Akishino (could it be a typo?). Should these two pages be titled "Fumihito, Crown Prince of Japan" and "Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan" or "Fumihito, Crown Prince Akishino" and "Kiko, Crown Princess Akishino"? In my opinion, we should go with the official statement because to me the second set of titles sounds pretty bizarre but that's how they have written it on their website, so now we have two versions to choose from. Keivan.f Talk 23:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Naruhito already ascended the throne on 1 may 2019 when he inherited the sacred treasures, the enthronement ceremony is simply a formality ceremony. A ceremony to formally confirm his ascension. On the issue of Prince Akishino, he'll officially become the Crown Prince when the ascension ceremony takes place next year. He's still Prince Akishino. It could however that the title of Crown Prince is conferred upon him as a courtesy title to signify that he'll inherited the title next year. Remember not all monarchies follow the british nobility system. CharlesViBritannia ( talk) 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - moving the articles. He's not the emperor's eldest son & heir-apparent. GoodDay ( talk) 10:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
User:GoodDay, User:Keivan.f, let's not forget that crown prince is not a title, like the Prince of Wales or Prince of Asturias, i.e. it is not created for or conferred on someone, it is rather a descriptive term used to refer to the heir to the throne. And that's how the Japanese see it, I think, and use it to style Fumihito now, since he became his brother's heir and the supposed next emperor. Compare it, let's say, to the "title" of Hereditary Prince in monarchies of lesser rank like principalities and (in the past) duchies. For example, Caroline of Hanover, the current Sovereign Prince Albert II of Monaco's elder sister, was the Hereditary Princess (an equivalent to crown prince - no doubt about that) twice in her life, first automatically after she was born and before the birth of her brother and later after that said heir's accession to the throne and before the birth of his own's heir. Whenever she was the first in line to the throne, she was styled as the Hereditary Princess of Monaco and no one questioned that. GoodDay, you just think Fumihito is not the Crown Prince but the Japanese themselves think the opposite. Well, are we really going to question that? The Imperial Household Agency's official website styles him as the Crown Prince, why shouldn't we? This is so Western attitude to this case. Kowalmistrz ( talk) 22:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
If an RM on this matter (for him & his wife) were held again? I would support adding the crown prince & crown princess titles. Indeed the heir-presumptive does have the title & can only lose it, if his elder brother has a legitimate son. GoodDay ( talk) 18:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kiko, Princess Akishino which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 07:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:02, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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The result of the move request was: moved. DrKiernan ( talk) 17:53, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
– A user moved the pages of the Japanese Imperial Family without any discussion. As an administrator he should know that it was better to a start a discussion on the talk page. His reason for changing the titles was the official website of Imperial Household Agency, because it refers to them by their imperial titles like this: HIH Prince/ss X (similar to HRH The Prince of Orange, etc). Well on Wikipedia the royal family members' articles are titled like this: "Name, Prince of X". British royal family's website also refers to them by their titles like HRH The Prince of Wales but on Wikipedia his article's title is Charles, Prince of Wales. Most of the articles of royal families are titled like this, so it is a kind of rule. Even Japanese Wikipedia includes the names of their royals on its articles' headings. Takahito, Prince Mikasa was moved to Prince Mikasa etc. It also misleads that his name is Mikasa when in fact that is his title. In Japan he is known as Prince Mikasa (in Japanese) similar to how the Prince William is known as Duke of Cambridge even though his given name is Takahito. There are others although Aiko, Princess Toshi has not been moved. Aiko, Princess Toshi is a good title because it combines her name with her title of Princess Toshi. Also if the Japanese succession rules change in favor of Princess Aiko to become empress, then the current Princess Akishino's son becomes 2nd Prince Akishino after his father's death and his wife will be styled as Princess Akishino. Actually, if Prince Mikasa's son, Prince Tomohito, didn't die sooner than his father, he would become Prince Mikasa and his wife would become Princess Mikasa. If Hirohito's other brothers had sons, they would carry on their fathers' titles now. It seems the titles are hereditary but for example Nobuhito, Prince Takamatsu, was moved to Prince Takamatsu while it has been the second creation of this title and he hasn't been the only person to use it. Unfortunately most of the members of the imperial family are females currently and these titles can't be used by them after their fathers' deaths. But all of these imperial titles can become recreated for a new prince to start a branch of the Imperial Family. So it's better to use their first names before their titles to avoid from confusing in the future. Besides, many sites and blogs refer to them by first name or full name with the title. Keivan.f Talk 18:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
I saw this discussion here now. I do not agree with it, because you are inventing a format that is incorrect. Gryffindor ( talk) 09:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
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The Japanese official sources, such as the Imperial Household Agency, refers to him as the Crown Prince. In a manual of the Imperial transition terminology's English translation he is also designated to be known as the CP. 89.64.31.129 ( talk • contribs) 30 April 2019
The result of the move request was: In this rambling discussion there was some support for a move but no consensus for any particular title. A future discussion might work better if a concrete proposal is made. — Martin ( MSGJ · talk) 18:56, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
– An official statement published by the Imperial Household Agency refers to the couple as His Imperial Highness The Crown Prince and Her Imperial Highness The Crown Princess. Meanwhile, the official biography of the couple refers to them as Their Imperial Highnesses Crown Prince and Crown Princess Akishino (could it be a typo?). Should these two pages be titled "Fumihito, Crown Prince of Japan" and "Kiko, Crown Princess of Japan" or "Fumihito, Crown Prince Akishino" and "Kiko, Crown Princess Akishino"? In my opinion, we should go with the official statement because to me the second set of titles sounds pretty bizarre but that's how they have written it on their website, so now we have two versions to choose from. Keivan.f Talk 23:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Naruhito already ascended the throne on 1 may 2019 when he inherited the sacred treasures, the enthronement ceremony is simply a formality ceremony. A ceremony to formally confirm his ascension. On the issue of Prince Akishino, he'll officially become the Crown Prince when the ascension ceremony takes place next year. He's still Prince Akishino. It could however that the title of Crown Prince is conferred upon him as a courtesy title to signify that he'll inherited the title next year. Remember not all monarchies follow the british nobility system. CharlesViBritannia ( talk) 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - moving the articles. He's not the emperor's eldest son & heir-apparent. GoodDay ( talk) 10:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
User:GoodDay, User:Keivan.f, let's not forget that crown prince is not a title, like the Prince of Wales or Prince of Asturias, i.e. it is not created for or conferred on someone, it is rather a descriptive term used to refer to the heir to the throne. And that's how the Japanese see it, I think, and use it to style Fumihito now, since he became his brother's heir and the supposed next emperor. Compare it, let's say, to the "title" of Hereditary Prince in monarchies of lesser rank like principalities and (in the past) duchies. For example, Caroline of Hanover, the current Sovereign Prince Albert II of Monaco's elder sister, was the Hereditary Princess (an equivalent to crown prince - no doubt about that) twice in her life, first automatically after she was born and before the birth of her brother and later after that said heir's accession to the throne and before the birth of his own's heir. Whenever she was the first in line to the throne, she was styled as the Hereditary Princess of Monaco and no one questioned that. GoodDay, you just think Fumihito is not the Crown Prince but the Japanese themselves think the opposite. Well, are we really going to question that? The Imperial Household Agency's official website styles him as the Crown Prince, why shouldn't we? This is so Western attitude to this case. Kowalmistrz ( talk) 22:27, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
If an RM on this matter (for him & his wife) were held again? I would support adding the crown prince & crown princess titles. Indeed the heir-presumptive does have the title & can only lose it, if his elder brother has a legitimate son. GoodDay ( talk) 18:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kiko, Princess Akishino which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 07:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:02, 2 December 2021 (UTC)