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From the Stony Brook Press on Dec 3, 2006:
"Free Republic. HOLY CRAP IN A GOVERNMENT-APPROVED HANDBAG!!! The people of www.freerepublic.com are as psychotic as can possibly be. Now I understand that there are many conservatives that support Bush, the Iraq War, or other Bush Administration policies. But this site, its founders, and its posters take this America-worship to a new level! A new level of psycho has been achieved! Free Republic is another one of these blog sites, a right-wing one, but it’s different from the others, mainly because these people aren’t conservatives, nor are they neoconservatives. They are complete and total fascists. They abhor, though they won’t admit it, every value America was founded on. The moderator and founder, Jim Robinson, deletes any post that contradicts the opinion of himself, his members, and the Bush Administration. If you question any American policies (as long as they are Republican-made ones), you get banned. No questions asked."
More recent criticism of Free Republic Although I don't feel this material is inclusionable, its further corroboration of the statements in article concerning bannings and Bush backing. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 10:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The reviews of FR on Amazon provide a good source of views from informed users on how they feel about FR. There are numerous reviews praising it and criticising it: A pro FR review:
"I have made over 4,000 posts on Free Republic. I am not a Republican. I am not a Bush Bot. I have argued against Republican statism, Bush diplomacy, the Supreme Court nominations, the Commerce Clause decision, The Patriot Act, the WOT, the WOD, and the culture wars of the Christian right.
I have never been accused of being a troll or zotted. Free Republic is not a Republican forum. It is a Conservative forum and there are just as many Libertarian Conservatives as Republicans on Free Republic. There are even a few bleeding heart Liberals who have been posting there for years.
No other political forum has the diversity that Free Republic has. Those who complain of being zotted or branded trolls are almost always guilty of racism or personal attacks on others. Anti-semitic white power types get zotted immediately, those with legitimate complaints about the government of Israel do not.
An anti FR review:
"FreeRepublic, back in the Clinton days, used to be the premiere news forum. A true government watchdog full of reasoned debate and rational thought.
Now, it's basically a Bush cheerleading site. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Back before election 2000, site owner Jim Robinson was very vocal in his dislike of Bush, even calling him a coke user and threatening armed revolt should Bush get elected. Now, however, posters who dare criticize Bush in any way are censored or banned. Old-time posters are being banned or leaving in droves, usually around the quarterly "Freep-a-thon" (fundraiser).
In fact, Robinson has openly declared that the goal of FreeRepublic is to re-elect Bush. This would seem to nullify their claims to be a a non-profit site (which wouldn't be allowed to promote political candidates), and throws their "fair use" justification for posting copyrighted articles into doubt.
It's really with a heavy heart I write those words. FreeRepublic, in my mind, could have changed the world. Now it's just an official web presence for the RNC."
Obviously, the allegations that FR and JR have become nothing more than rubber stamps for Bush, The Neocons and and the GOP is a divisive and hotly contested issue, and its as hotly contested right here, if the objections of the FR members and supporters are to be understood that they deny this as fact. I'm not sure if this is the case as they have objected to the Fahey info as being Non RS, but haven't argued that its untrue. (AFAIK) How do we solve this difference of opinion? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Surely somebody has published a FR Lexicon somewhere that is RS-V? I cannot find one. Otherwise I'll try to document each term individually. -- BenBurch 12:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Todd Brendan Fahey is a RS as is Lew Rockwell.com "(LRC) is a paleolibertarian web magazine run by Lew Rockwell, Burton Blumert, and others associated with the Center for Libertarian Studies. The site, which is also closely associated with the Ludwig von Mises Institute"
Fahey Bio:
He is also one of the most respected experts regarding CIA drug and 'mind control' experiments. Fahey on CIA Drug Experiments, and helped debunk the claims of a disturbed woman who alleged that she was a CIA 'mind control' victim, and that Dick Cheney kept her sister hostage as a sex slave in a cheap and tawdry hotel room somewhere. (A true patriot to clear 'Dead Eye' Dick's impugned reputation!) As I argued, if Fahey were making an 'exceptional' claim, like Jim Rob is an Alien from Planet Xenu, I would agree with you, but he is documenting 'generally accepted truths' corroborated by dozens of other sources, that unlike Fahey and Rockwell, aren't RS V sources, but add to the veracity of his claims. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 08:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
That was easy. Fahey's self-serving bio was already posted here. But since reviewing his self-promotion efforts convinced you so easily, you should read the negative things that he brags about. For all practical purposes, he is self-published. After every publishing house in New York rejected his first novel, he founded his own publishing company. [1] He seems to be proud of the quantity and variety of illegal drugs and alcohol he's used, and describes himself as a propagandist. [2] [3] "While I sucked lungsful of blonde Lebanese hash in London ..." [4]
This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?
Publication at LewRockwell.com is also no guarantee that Fahey is reliable. While it has published articles by many reliable people, it has also published articles by unreliable people:
-- BryanFromPalatine 11:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
" Chronicles_(magazine) is a U.S. monthly magazine published by the paleoconservative Rockford Institute. Its full current name is Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture. The magazine is known for promoting anti-globalism and anti-intervention stances within conservative politics. [7] The editor is Thomas Fleming; the executive editor is Scott P. Richert. Aaron D. Wolf is associate editor, and Chilton Williamson is the senior editor for books. Chronicles was founded in 1976, soon after the Institute's establishment earlier that year."
I found this article (published in the Dec 2002 issue) a few weeks ago, but mistakingly thought that it was only a forum post.
Notable quotes:
"Matters came to a head in early 2000 when Robinson (or "JimRob") speculated on George W. Bush’s connection to the airport in Mena, Arkansas where drug and gun-running allegedly took place during the 1980’s. Matt Drudge then dropped Free Republic’s link from the Drudge Report, and Goldberg took 2.000 members with her to start her own Lucianne.com."
"With so many posters banned, the diversity of thought on Free Republic has been reduced to the musings of neoconservatives, Zionists, Republicans who act is if Free Republic were an annex of GOP headquarters, those who consider George W. Bush a demigod and offer daily prayers to him, and other sycophants and cheerleaders..."
"Many banned Freepers have turned to such sites as Liberty Post (www.libertypost.org) and Liberty Forum (www.libertyforum.org) where members can post articles from anywhere and comment without interference from the thought police or fear of Siberian banishment."
The article was posted on FR:
[www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/793011/posts?page=51,50 Link on FR]
More posts on it, and related.
Discussion on Liberty Post - Fairness And Accuracy For All 08:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
(UI) Why are you editing this article from two accounts? Didn't you read WP:SOCK while you were blocked for sockpuppetry? Your consensus claims are fallacious as it would now have to be described as 3 to 2 for Fahey with Picaroon joining me and BB (That's not 'consensus' but I'm using your understanding so you can relate) - Fairness And Accuracy For All 20:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Some advice that editors may consider. See
WP:NPOV#Attributing_and_substantiating_biased_statements. Using attribution, sometime helps give context to our readers. In particular is a statement is contentious, describing who makes that statement, can help our readers reach their own conclusions about it. I do not want to get into the discussion of this person Fahey is a reliable source or not, as that may be not the issue. Please consider evaluating if that source represents a "significant" viewpoint instead.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 21:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
more criticism needed. The FR members and supporters here have agreed that this article should be similar to that of Democratic Underground as far as criticism. Take a look at that criticism section vs this one. They have cherry picked the most offensive quotes and included them verbatim like "The wife of former Vice Presidential candidate John Edwards allegedly criticized members who did not feel compassion for Laura Ingraham in her fight with breast cancer. Comments about Ingraham's cancer reportedly included: "She Probably Gave it to Herself," "All that Hate, Lies, Anger," and "I don't pray for Nazis or other Totalitarian Scum." The FR article takes an entirely different approach and describes documented actions like death threats against Clinton (which were quoted in the article) in as mild and exculpatory manner as possible. The lawsuit info doesn't count towards 'crticism' either. It's not the members fault that Jim Rob encouraged them to ignore copyright. Where's the parity? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. That works for me. -- BryanFromPalatine 21:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
proposed quotes to include:
"Followers of the Free Republic gained notoriety earlier for posting death threats against President Clinton. This was the most direct:"
"So, it doesn't matter if he [Bush] snorted coke as a youth? It was a long time ago, a youthful in-discretion? And, I, for one, am tired of taking orders from cokeheads and felons! Elect another one and I'll tell you what. I'll be ready for war! It'll be time to take up arms and run the filthy lying bastards out!"Posted on 08/20/1999 03:19:31 PDT by Jim Robinson [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37bd2556430e.htm SOURCE]
Any objections? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
You seriously believe that the truth of the matter is that Free Republic has been infested with enemies who are sufficiently able to sound like a coherent whatever-it-is-that-you-think-you are-there to avoid a speedy zot, but who are also the source of all extremist rhetoric and horrible grammar on Free Republic? Do you then also believe that America is still infested with Soviet deep-cover agents waiting for their "Manchurian Candidate" phone call? How about the Tooth Fairy? -- BenBurch 22:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Chronicles states that during the late 1990s "[l]eftists began to infiltrate the site, posting articles or posing as conservatives to act as agents provocateurs." This is the same magazine that your friend FAAFA has just introduced as a reliable source. That is sufficient proof that SOME of the FR activities that have been criticized were the work of "leftist ... agents provocateurs." There's your fifty cents. -- BryanFromPalatine 22:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
OR: BFP, please explain how this addition isn't OR. I need a good laugh. "It is possible that many of these incidents may have been the fault of such leftist ... agents provocateurs." Why are you editing this article from two accounts, BFP, and IP 209? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 22:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The Chronicles article is not a reliable source (as, say, the New York Times would be) but closer to an opinion. If we grant that it's a notable opinion, it should be restated with attribution to its owner, as I just did. Ashibaka (tock) 22:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
IMHO this issue is a significant part of FR history and should be included. It also speaks to how significant FR is in the blogoshere, and even outside the blogoshere.
I haven't seen the documentary 'Shut Up and Sing' yet, but understand that it either credits (or blames, depending on your POV) FR for the 'boycott' against them. I hear that it even includes screen shots of FR posts and a discussion of FR, after Jim Rob refused to be interviewed for the documentary.
This is what was said on 'Hardball' :
I'll write a prospective paragraph about this tonight. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 01:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I have again reverted your vandalism of this page. Your changes are not supported by consensus. There was no discussion of any changes at all after Ashibaka's last edit. Discuss your proposed changes and then we will reach a consensus for or against them. Don't continue to ignore the participation of RWR8189 or my participation, or Ashibaka's, or Jossi's. If you continue to vandalize the consensus version that Administrator Ashibaka posted, I will report you for your vandalism, and seek to have you blocked. -- BryanFromPalatine 01:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Two weeks for "General Disruption" BenBurch 02:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:NPA, careful. Prodego talk 02:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I've received a complaint that one editor is attempting to cite an unreliable source at this article. What exactly is the argument? Durova Charge 02:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the gist of the claims:
"dating back to the [2000] GOP primary Presidential campaigns – it appears to many that the "independent, grassroots conservatism" emphasis has been replaced by a rank-and-file boostership for the Republican National Committee and all that President Bush sees fit to offer for the nation – an increasingly liberal (Big Government) vision, in the eyes of many "grassroots conservatives."
Corroborated by another WRITTEN RS V source, Chronicles Magazine Talk:Free_Republic#New_RS_V_Source saying:
"With so many posters banned, the diversity of thought on Free Republic has been reduced to the musings of neoconservatives, Zionists, Republicans who act is if Free Republic were an annex of GOP headquarters, those who consider George W. Bush a demigod and offer daily prayers to him, and other sycophants and cheerleaders..." - Fairness And Accuracy For All 02:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, being a Ph.D. candidate in English literature counts for something in the field of English literature. Other than that he appears to be mostly self-published. If he writes for a reliable source (such as a freelance feature in a reputable magazine) then that would be acceptable here. Otherwise no-go. His general sobriety doesn't interest me per se. Durova Charge 03:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I readded the terminology again and will add the FR link as a ref. Since we are using FR as an uncontested RS for something as important as 'budget' when there have been allegations of serious financial irregularities including hundreds of thousands of dollars raised and squandered in the LAT V FR lawsuit, and $110,000 wasted alone when their lawyer filed the claim in the wrong state, Clarity Hilarity How FreeRepublic.com lost a "First Amendment" lawsuit and wasted $110,000 on a frivolous lawsuit - Fairness And Accuracy For All 20:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to remove the weasel words from the intro, specifically "The site has also been controverisal for what their critics consider inappropriate calls to action posted by some of its by members". Unless Freepers support death threats, which are RS V sourced, there's no need to include that, and it's actually weasely - right?
RWR1989 good to see you back! On Dec 20 in mediation, you agreed that the crticism section be modeled after that of the Democratic Underground article. Since then, you have introduced several sourced quotes from DU members into the criticism section of that article, such as " Comments about Ingraham's cancer reportedly included: "She Probably Gave it to Herself," "All that Hate, Lies, Anger," and "I don't pray for Nazis or other Totalitarian Scum." The FR article takes an entirely different approach and describes the documented words and actions of FR members, like death threats against Clinton (which were quoted in several articles) in as mild and exculpatory manner as possible. Obviously, 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander' so we need to include some actual quotes in the FR criticism section, correct? I suggest "People, we are going to have to go to Washington, and kill this horrible bastard [President Clinton] ourselves! He is now threatening my children and grandchildren, and I will kill him, before I let him kill my kids for his non-legacy!" OK? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 08:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
removed budget claim and link. I removed the link to the 'budget' and claims regarding it. Apparently, the link went to the FR donation page (it never loaded for me) which is a clear WP violation along with being non RS V for an issue that has been a 'bone of contention' to some former FR-members turned critics. (I don't know how that was EVER accepted) I don't think we need to document the alleged $30,000 misappropriated by the FR member whose past criminal record ('17 time convicted felon') was known to FR management who allegedly authorized her appointment to a position to handle money. [11] - Fairness And Accuracy For All 10:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I do believe something should be included about how users at the Free Republic will urge others to 'freep' a poll, to change the results of it so it reflects their viewpoint. - Jarn 00:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Another sock of BryanFromPalatine ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) -- BenBurch 03:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
(UI) Read my comments on the Dixie Chicks ban a few sections up. I have't had a chance to look for RS V sources yet. It does speak to FR's 'power' though. I think there also must be some RS V discussion about how amazingly popular they are, in terms of web traffic, and that is notable too. The issue of FR's contribution to the Killian memos is disputed. Most sources (even conservative sources) credit Powerline and LGF a lot more than they do FR. - Fairness And Accuracy Dan Rather 22:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I note the recent addition of a comment about purges and a link to an article on that site. Comments please? -- BenBurch 19:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's one RS V source about Tony Snow's participation on FR. Tony Snow on FR There are a lot more mentions, but all I found were blogs. It appears that after he got the WH job, they deleted all his FR posts, but many are archived. With posts like this about his boss, it's no wonder. "He (Bush) inhabits a political Oz, where the colors are happy and the tough decisions can wait until the oracle speaks. When he stumbles over abstruse matters of foreign policy, for instance, he actually jokes about his cluelessness." "This is how frat boys behave when they know the class nerd is going to take their exams for them." OUCH! (he's got an amazing command of the English language. I'd never heard of the word 'abstruse', and thought it might have been a misspelling of 'obtuse'. New word! Thanks Tony! ;-) - Fairness And Accuracy For President Bush 22:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that Free Republic is used as a source for hundreds of articles. [13] In some cases it is used as a convenience link to copyrighted articles from other sources which may or may not be otherwise available on the web.[www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/576453/posts][www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/939567/posts] In other cases, it is used as a direct source. [14][www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b9029683567.htm] I'm not sure that either use is justifiable. Are there other opinions about this? - Will Beback · † · 03:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Please strive to maintain basic talk-page discipline. Comments about other editors, personal opinions about the subject of the article and similar discussions are not for these pages. There are other fora out there for these, that are much more suited to debates about this subject. Here we discuss the article and nothing else. I have refactored a comment by FAAA and placed a WP:NPA warning in his/her talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/BryanFromPalatine. Please can we not hear from you again, Bryan, until your block expires? When that happens I am happy to work with you again on this article. -- BenBurch 00:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, BryanFromPalatine ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s two-week block gets reset from today, and I expect that additional time will be added on. Another week or even two is merited. If any of his proven socks like ClemsonTiger ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) edit, I expect that Bryan will get a permaban. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 02:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Oooops - I spoke too soon. Bryan/Clemson/Johnny/Arlington/Helvetica/DP1976/Mishwaka/Hums/Devin/Andrew and John Does 1-99 have been permabanned. Check the block log for Head Puppeteer BryanFromPalatine ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). "Justice served is justice done" - Fairness And Accuracy For All 02:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Add your own items. strike out items as they are done. Thanks! --
BenBurch 06:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the cut made by Carolyn, since there are some larger issues involved. She removed that paragraph for a very, very good reason. Please do not second guess her. Dino 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Jeff Stein in salon.com July 13, 1999 writes:
"T.J. Walker, an online columnist who dug up a passel of ominous posts on the Clintons in the past few months (another sample: "People, we are going to have to go to Washington, and kill this horrible bastard ourselves!"), claimed that Free Republic's "political influence is rising even as death threats occur more frequently on its message boards." As evidence, he cited the upcoming "Treason is the Reason" rally that, in addition to featuring Barr and Hitchens, is also touting speeches by Rep. James Rogan, R-Calif., another failed House impeachment manager."
I think 'Dino' might be pulling our collective legs. Salon - Free for All at Free Republic - Fairness And Accuracy For All 23:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Why are Wikimedia folks involved in removing sourced paragraphs from this article? No explanation or edit summary was left other than somebody else saying that there are "larger issues" involved. WHAT are the "larger issues"? Wikipedia is not censored is a key element of the creed here. -- BenBurch 23:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
How does Dino (aka Bryan) know what TJ Walker told Wikimedia Foundation??? -- BenBurch 00:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Note: 'Dino' claimed "I contacted TJ Walker and asked him whether he authored the article. He said, "Of course not." Of course not? Salon quotes him, and here's something TJ wrote at about the same time he 'didn't' write the FR Death Threat article : "Don't get me started on the Fox News Channel, but when host Bill O'Reilly went on vacation recently, who was the replacement? Former Congressman Bob Dornan, the wife-beating, right wing wacko who has been ostracized by Newt Gingrich and Tom Delay for being "too out there." Enough said." TJ Walker We're being played for rubes. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 00:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It's sure odd that TJWalker.com LISTS that very article : "7-6-99 Is the FreeRepublic.Com Really DeathThreat.Com? "' Although none of the links work, I'd say that's conclusive proof. TJWALKER ALL COLUMNS - Fairness And Accuracy For All 04:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Pending any further information:
I've edited the section (since it was a blatent copyvio) and added it back in.
brenneman 00:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
See his talk page. BenBurch 13:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Result was unblock denied. Too bad, really, I would rather he had decided to abide by the rules here, apologized, and gotten unblocked. He's a smart kid, and likely could contribute significantly to this effort had he tried. -- BenBurch 17:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see anything POV about Hathorn's edits. Everything outside of the 2nd paragraph is pretty much straight copyediting, can we restore that to begin with, and then discuss that? - Merzbow 19:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the following sentence "Some liberal critics claim that Free Republic has posted calls for inappropriate action by some of the members [3] whom the opponents contend advocate political extremism." The death threats are documented by Salon, and other RS V sources. This sentence needs a rewrite, and mention of 'death threats' IMHO. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Jerome Corsi (which used to be in the article), Tony Snow, and Dixie Chicks.
Please help rewrite, and linkify. I have to find the link on FR where JimRob admits that Tony asked him to pull all his posts, and close the account. Apparently he never wrote anything really bad, and pulling the posts of somone who just got a high profile admin job is not unusual. Comments, objections, praise welcome. Fairness And Accuracy For All 06:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Please check my edits, but I don't think either of those sources qualify as RS, and I don't think we need any information about Robinson here in this article which is NOT about him. Thanks! BenBurch 23:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
As of 1/21/07, against an Arab-American owned business that supports a U.S. redeployment in Iraq—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.33.185.185 ( talk • contribs).
Here is a reliable source regarding the death threats. Though it isn't stated explicitly in the article, my sources in WI law enforcement tell me that Free Republic is being focused on as a source of a hacker attack and several death threats: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=555527
Per the news story,
West Allis police said Monday that they were aware of the controversy. "We're monitoring the situation, in case somebody decides to retaliate," Capt. Tom Kukowski said." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.33.185.185 ( talk) 18:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
The person I spoke to relayed my query to Captain Ponzi (not sure I got the spelling right) and informed me that FR is one of the groups they're looking at.
What happened to RWR1889? He seems to have lost interest in anything Freepalicious except for reverting vandalism. Tough times! I found a RS V source for the $60,000 settlement that the City of Fresno paid JimRob for calling FR a 'Hate Group'. Did he really spend it on an RV? Maybe one of you guys can add it to the article. Freepers = LOVERS, not HATERS! - Fairness & Accuracy For All 06:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
After contacting the ever patient and cooperative Carolyn Doran (several times) and Attorney Brad Patrick (once) at the Wikimedia Foundation, and working patiently at Unblock-en-l with Yamla, Luna Santin and another admin that I only know as "Larry," I've been unblocked.
I will not abuse their trust, and I am grateful for their intervention on my behalf. Let's all relax for a moment, have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine if you're inclined, and decompress. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
I refer everyone who has any questions (or snarky remarks) to this notice on my Talk page. Dino 18:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Dino: You claimed on Jan. 15, 2007, that YOU contacted TJ Walker, the author of the contested article and that TJ told you that he never wrote that article! " I contacted TJ Walker and asked him whether he authored the article. He said, "Of course not." here (when TJ Walker certainly did write the article - and it's even archived from his website on the www! here) TJ Walker is a published notable author and RS whose work has recently appeared on CBS and National Review Here is a list of the dozens of articles, including the one in question. TJ Walker - All Columns 1999-2000 from the time period in question.
Could you explain the inconsistancy between your claim of TJ saying he didn't write the article, and the truth, and chronicle any interactions you had with TJ Walker ? Thanks ! There's a new investigation into these actions by the way - and it WILL involve TJ, since your hollow denials and phony claims demand so. By the way, TJ Walker doesn't suffer fools and liars lightly. - Fairness & Accuracy For Delay, Ney, Abramoff & Cunningham 00:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Wikipedia:Libel.
Administrators encountering biographies that are unsourced and controversial in tone, where there is no NPOV version to revert to, should delete the article without discussion (see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion criterion G10 for more details).
Jimmy Wales has said:
He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:
Folks, cite it or don't put it in. All unsourced material should be removed immediately upon sight, no questions asked. CyberAnth 19:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Any assertion in a biography of a living person that might be defamatory if untrue must be sourced. Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate No original research and Verifiability, and could lead to libel claims.
Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, zines or websites/ blogs should never be used ...
Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of positive or negative claims that rely on association.
This is a contentious, emotionally charged, politically delicate topic. Based on the experiences of the City of Fresno regarding their "hate group" allegation, Jim Robinson will not hesitate to take legal action to protect his name and reputation, and those of Free Republic; I am doing my very best to prevent that from happening. When writing about such litigious people and organizations, it is best to err on the side of caution.
The alleged "TJ Walker article," even if it was written by TJ Walker, was self-published; and as you've mentioned, TJ Walker is a liberal. That, by itself, is sufficient grounds for removing it under WP:BLP. That article was then published on AmericanPolitics.com, a highly partisan left-wing website. This is also sufficient grounds for removing it under WP:BLP.
Even if WP:BLP does not apply, Wikipedia:Articles about ongoing enterprises surely applies. While it is not yet Wikipedia policy, it has been proposed as policy and that proposal should meet favorable responses. It closely follows WP:BLP and in many places, it is a word-for-word copy. Dino 15:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I plan to totally ignore any comments here by User:DeanHinnen and in fact, to totally ignore his existence henceforth. He can say whatever he wishes to say about this article, but I will edit it as though he never had said a word. -- BenBurch 17:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Admin Jossi is one of the chief contributors to re-writing WP RS V to WP:ATT. I have asked him to return to mediation that was going well until Bryan created 5 (?) sock accounts to sway consensus. I hope Dino will 'sign on' to the still-valid mediation agreement and allow Jossi to guide any proposed major changes to the article. Maybe we should get the WMF attorney Brad to weigh in on specific third-party claims about FR and JimRob, as Dino is concerned about libel issues? - Fairness & Accuracy For All
Dino - please sign your posts, and there's no need to fill up this page with cut and pastes from WP. All of us here (expect for one or two) are quite familiar with the applicable policies. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me understand this. An article was written in the past by a person named TJ Walker, right? That article was later removed by the author from hios website, on the basis that it was libelous? Is there any official retraction by TJ Walker to that effect? If that is the case, you can cite both the article and the retraction. If there is no retraction, citing the article would appropriate as per WP:V, even if it is from a cached version or an Internet archive. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Another question, why is it WP:BLP mentioned? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The site we're talking about has a documented history of being so extreme (up until 9/11 when they underwent a 'sea change') that they theorized that Clinton bombed the Murrah building in Oklahoma City so that he could pass anti-terror legislation....
[www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ae09bb25c23.htm The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Reichstag Fire]
[www.freerepublic.com/~actionnewsbill/links?U=%2Ffocus%2Ff-news%2Fbrowse More claims from this time period] (an official FR 'page' compiled by FR - and as such, reflects their views)
And even speculated that the US. Gov, not Al Qaeda, bombed The USS Cole : "IMO the Cole bombing, if not another American Reichstag event, is AWFULLY convenient for a lot of Clinton goals.." [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a208ce00453.htm Cole bombing - An American Reichstag?]
I have never added anything to the Free Republic article but documented claims from verifiable secondary sources that are 'accepted truths'. I also ask that we wait until TJ Walker and American Politics Journal weigh in to verify or deny Dino's claims that TJ Walker admitted to him that he didn't write his July 06, 1999 article entitled 'Is FreeRepublic.Com Really DeathThreat.Com?' before deleting this source.
Note that all the facts above are sourced from Free Republic itself. Let's not try and sweep FRs documented extremist past under the rug - it's neither 'accurate' nor 'fair' like is my credo! - Fairness & Accuracy For All 00:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The site we're talking about has a documented history of being so extreme (up until 9/11 when they underwent a 'sea change') that they theorized that Clinton bombed the Murrah building in Oklahoma City so that he could pass anti-terror legislation....
Is that the official position of Free Republic, or the surveyed position of a majority of its members? Read the thread. Do not characterize it as the official Free Republic position unless you can prove it. BenBurch has just been blocked for 24 hours for mischaracterization. What you are describing is the position of a small segment of Freepers: the tinfoil hat crowd. That crowd is constantly subject to ridicule by the rest of the Free Republic membership. You are succumbing to the usual temptation: characterizing the most flaky, freaky quotations you can find as those of the "typical Freeper."
I also ask that we wait until TJ Walker and American Politics Journal weigh in to verify or deny Dino's claims ...
Earlier, you suggested a deadline of Tuesday. We shouldn't even wait that long. The burden of proof is on you under WP:RS, WP:V and WP:BLP, and until you satisfy that burden of proof it should be removed. Dino 00:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
To: Freedom Wins
"So, it doesn't matter if he snorted coke as a youth? It was a long time ago, a youthful indiscretion? Kinda like people who frequented sneakeasies during prohibition? Kind of a cute story, eh? Well, how about all the people whose lives have been destroyed by being arrested for the felony of drug possession? What about the millions of people who are rotting away in your filthy drug infested prisons at this very moment?
Well, by God, if you people insist on electing another cokehead as President, you damned well better throw open all the prison cell doors and free every man, woman, and child you're holding on drug charges. And if you're gonna elect another drug felon as President, you'd better rescind each and every one of your unconstitutional drug laws now on the books, including all of your unconstitutional search and seizure laws, and your asset forfeiture laws, and your laws that enable your unconstitutional snooping into our bank accounts and cash transactions. Well, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You people are sick! Conservatives my ass. You people are nothing but a bunch of non-thinking hypocrits! You're a shame and a disgrace to the Republic!
And, I, for one, am tired of taking orders from cokeheads and felons! Elect another one and I'll tell you what. I'll be ready for war! It'll be time to take up arms and run the filthy lying bastards out!"
2 Posted on 08/20/1999 03:19:31 PDT by Jim Robinson [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37bd2556430e.htm REPLY #2] - You accuse me of misquoting him or misinterpeting him???! Fairness & Accuracy For All
Yes, you misquoted him. He did not call Bush a cokehead and a felon. He is chastising the WP for allowing Bush to not answer questions about it. To wit, Bush is President and Robinson doesn't seem all that upset. But I doubt he would be happy if the U.S. elected another Clinton so he wants those questions asked and answered (drug use and felonies). -- Tbeatty 15:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, use my full username. -- Tbeatty 15:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's his comment in the thread:
To: To All:
I was addressing my comments to the author and supporters of the view subscribed to in this editorial. Does the Wall Street Journal now claim that a felon, any felon (forget about the name Bush for a moment), should be allowed to be our President? And do they further say that the precedent set by Clinton's stonewalling is ok? That as long as a presidential candidate stonewalls on questions of his integrity that it is ok? If he can stonewall the press and the people will fall for it that it's all ok? If cocaine use is a felony, any person who used it at any time in is life is a felon and he should not be qualified to run as president. It appears to me that we have a potential candidate who realizes this fact and this is why he refuses to answer the question. I just kinda blew my top when I see what is normally a conservative editorial page spin for a felon. Forget the name. They are suggesting that if a candidate has a felony in his background that he should simply follow Clinton's precedent and stonewall. I cannot believe I read this in a Wall Street Journal editorial.
89 Posted on 08/20/1999 10:03:57 PDT by Jim Robinson
Yes you misquoted him. -- Tbeatty 04:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah - two hours after he posted his screed and he saw that he had a full blown mutiny on his hands he tried to backtrack a little as damage control - but STILL alleges A SECOND TIME that Bush is a cokehead and felon (HERE) 'If cocaine use is a felony, any person who used it at any time in is life is a felon and he should not be qualified to run as president' . Or are you gonna claim now that he was talking about Klintoon? Fairness & Accuracy For All
Dino - all your worries are for naught!
"Thanks to section 230 of the Federal Communications Decency Act (CDA), which became law in 1996, Wikipedia is most likely safe from legal liability for libel, regardless of how long an inaccurate article stays on the site. That's because it is a service provider as opposed to a publisher such as Salon.com or CNN.com." Wikipedia and libel - 18:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
"Dino," something is not adding up with all your "concern" about getting Wiki embroiled in a legal battle with Jim Robinson, and urging everyone to "play it safe" - especially since your take on "play it safe" always seems to translate to don't post anything unflattering, no matter how truthful, about Jim Robinson or Free Republic. I'm sure a lot of us who edit here on Wiki were born at night - just not last night. Carthago delenda est 00:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Note : That Admin User:Jossi who is heavily involved with BLP, LIVING, and re-writing RS V to ATT is of the opinion that the source is fine, even as he accepts as fact Dino's unproven claim that the article was 'pulled' for being libelous! "Let me understand this. An article was written in the past by a person named TJ Walker, right? That article was later removed by the author from his website, on the basis that it was libelous? [unknown] Is there any official retraction by TJ Walker to that effect? If that is the case, you can cite both the article and the retraction. If there is no retraction, citing the article would appropriate as per WP:V, even if it is from a cached version or an Internet archive". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC) link Why is Dino even persuing this, when Jossi, who is the long time mediator on the Free Republic article, [just now returning to medition] said it was OK?
From 1999:
Defendant Jim Robinson is the owner and operator of the two website Defendants: Electronic Orchard and Free Republic,[10] Electronic Orchard is a for-profit limited liability company in the business of "Internet Programming & Design Services."[11] Free Republic is a for-profit limited liability company in the business of "Internet discussion and marketing". Fairness & Accuracy For All
From the Dec 2002 Chronicles magazine article. I would like to summarize the following:
And add the following quote verbatim.
Don't forget - I am the one who just researched, compiled, wrote and added the PRO-FREE REPUBLIC additions about Tony Snow and the Dixie Chicks, and even the pro-FR Walter Reed info too. I'm think I'm becoming Freeper at HEART ! Are we all OK with this? - Fairness & Accuracy For All 08:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
So do I. Restore it to the version that Jossi created, because you've been removing or muting the "good" portions and reinforcing and adding "bad" portions ever since he posted it. That was a balanced, NPOV article and you've been steadily turning it into more and more of a hatchet job. Dino 14:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
1 | Talk to the other parties involved | |
2 | Bring in outside editor | |
3 | Informal mediation | |
4 | Discuss with third parties | |
5 | Conduct a survey | |
6 | Formal Mediation | |
7 | Arbitration |
RfA doesn't provide a binding decision anyway. The parties (specifically BenBurch and FAAFA) could abandon the decision and start warring over content again if it doesn't go their way. What's the point? The Arbitration Committee is the only way to obtain a binding decision. Dino 19:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The ArbCom will not accept to hear the case, unless all elements of WP:DR have been exhausted.
I have just offered to participate in formal mediation and it was instantly rejected: "Then the dispute ends here." Jossi, what's the next step in dispute resolution after formal mediation has been rejected? Dino 20:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Please file a WP:RFD and see how it goes. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
At what point do we force a stub version and make everyone start from scratch. Simon Pulsifer's version looks like a good place to start back from.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 21:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I've already created a great place to start. Want to see it? How do we create a Sandbox page like Jossi's? Dino 21:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's try this: Sandbox This includes the specific mention of the phrase "death threats" that the Democratic Underground people are fighting so very hard to include. It is based on Jossi's compromise version but contains some new material, and I've started creating a consistent system of references that should be completed. Most importantly, it removed the libelous material and it satisfies WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. What do you think? Dino 21:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to summarize the following:
And add the following quote verbatim.
Thanks for your endorsement of Scalon. This makes things peachy. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 22:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Dino's version is fair and balanced, exactly the way it's written. This is an encyclopedia. It must be neutral and balanced. There is already plenty of criticism in Dino's version of the article. His concerns about WP:NPOV#Undue_weight are right on the mark. Providing a link to the Scallon article is sufficient if readers want to know more. Fensteren 22:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
When asked to file an RFC about this article you filed this instead. Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/BenBurch] -- BenBurch 21:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I think, that at this stage after all the mess with sockpuppets and other disruptions, a user RFC is not the way forward. It creates further animosity and will not be helpful. I would suggest that one of you file a WP:RFM and give a chance to an experienced mediator to assist with the dispute. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
"Dino, regardless of your intentions, posting a comment stating that you are a part of the FR legal team and stating that you are here to prevent wikipedia getting sued, like someone else did, is what we class as a legal threat. It has the implication that if we don't do something then there will be a lawsuit brought against the site.
Stop threatening legal action. Also, I would advise looking at WP:COI with regards your involvement in the organisation. If there are legal issues you wish to discuss I would advise your organisation to contact the foundation directly. Any actions accompanied with what we see as threats are liable to get you blocked."-Localzuk(talk) 19:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC) Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Outside View from User:Merzbow [who started out SUPPORTING BryanFromPalatine, Dino's purported brother]
I've had no experience with Ben or FAAFA before the short time I spent on the Free Republic article, so I can't comment on their behavior before that point or on other articles. But although they freely admit their own political leanings, they've been fair as far as I can tell in their edits to the article, and have been willing to compromise when presented with well-reasoned arguments. The big story here is Bryan's amazing months-long campaign of elaborate sockpuppetry, forum-shopping, disinformation, incivility, and quite obvious conflicts of interest. Him and his "brother", whether real or imagined, should be quickly escorted off any article related to the Free Republic. - Merzbow 01:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC) - Fairness & Accuracy For All
is he a particularly prominent person or is he just some guy who writes on an editorial page? A minority opinion should not be given undue weight, and probably should not be included at all. Ken Arromdee 00:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
From Fensteren, another victim of false accusations of sockpuppetry: "The presence of people like BenBurch and others like him in this Wikiclique is poisonous to Wikipedia. They foster an atmosphere of conflict and venom, rather than collegiality and cooperation. Good people are being driven off, or leaving without a word ... The presence of such people is the reason why I have not continued to participate on Wikipedia to a greater degree. Careful review of the diffs and contrib histories confirms, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that BenBurch has formed a street gang. Whenever one of them gets into a disagreement, another one shows up, probably in response to a phone call or e-mail. BenBurch always baited BryanFromPalatine. Administrators blamed the victim, because he always took the bait and reacted in the wrong way. BenBurch should share his fate."
From VoiceOfReason: "I was asked by User:BenBurch to comment on this page, so here it is: Ben, I really think you don't need to be editing Free Republic any more than User:Jinxmchue needs to be editing Democratic Underground. ... one reads as 'Sugar and spice and everything nice' while the other reads as 'snakes and snails and puppy dog tails.' ... I don't doubt the conflict could have been avoided had people avoided editing encyclopedia articles on subjects towards which they have a negative bias. That goes for everyone involved in the present politicization of Wikipedia."
From Tbeatty: "User:BenBurch and User:Fairness And Accuracy For All are two like-minded editors. They tag-team articles to get across their viewpoint. I don't believe they are purposely harming the project but their POV warrior mentality does have that effect. This is clearly seen on both the Free Republic and Democratic Underground articles. ... User:DeanHinnen has a valid point that these articles have been hijacked by POV warriors and they should all be banned from these articles. The articles about FR and DU should be about the websites and their broad history, not the controversy that was made up in the previous two weeks. Both sites are formidable and reputable political websites and their Wikipedia should reflect that rather than as 'one upmanship' paragraphs of criticism and commentary by their respective fans/detractors posing as Wikipedia editors."
From Rjensen: "I had numerous unplasant experiences with BenBurch and his allies on the Henry Ford article. He refuses to accept the policy that statements have to be based on reliable sources, and ridicules and harasses patient explanations of why his ideas are not accepted by experts. He will not look at serious evidence that refutes his POV and attacks ediors who present it." Dino 11:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I would only say this: continue using Wikipedia as a political battleground, and the most likely outcome is that eventually all editors involved will be banned from editing this article. I have seen this happening in articles about which there are strong POVs and in which most of the effort is spent in editwarring, using sockpuppets, and other disruptions. I would encourage editors to stop the word fight/edit war here and to file a request for mediation at WP:RFM. None of the involved parties should look forward to an ArbCom case... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
From the Stony Brook Press on Dec 3, 2006:
"Free Republic. HOLY CRAP IN A GOVERNMENT-APPROVED HANDBAG!!! The people of www.freerepublic.com are as psychotic as can possibly be. Now I understand that there are many conservatives that support Bush, the Iraq War, or other Bush Administration policies. But this site, its founders, and its posters take this America-worship to a new level! A new level of psycho has been achieved! Free Republic is another one of these blog sites, a right-wing one, but it’s different from the others, mainly because these people aren’t conservatives, nor are they neoconservatives. They are complete and total fascists. They abhor, though they won’t admit it, every value America was founded on. The moderator and founder, Jim Robinson, deletes any post that contradicts the opinion of himself, his members, and the Bush Administration. If you question any American policies (as long as they are Republican-made ones), you get banned. No questions asked."
More recent criticism of Free Republic Although I don't feel this material is inclusionable, its further corroboration of the statements in article concerning bannings and Bush backing. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 10:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The reviews of FR on Amazon provide a good source of views from informed users on how they feel about FR. There are numerous reviews praising it and criticising it: A pro FR review:
"I have made over 4,000 posts on Free Republic. I am not a Republican. I am not a Bush Bot. I have argued against Republican statism, Bush diplomacy, the Supreme Court nominations, the Commerce Clause decision, The Patriot Act, the WOT, the WOD, and the culture wars of the Christian right.
I have never been accused of being a troll or zotted. Free Republic is not a Republican forum. It is a Conservative forum and there are just as many Libertarian Conservatives as Republicans on Free Republic. There are even a few bleeding heart Liberals who have been posting there for years.
No other political forum has the diversity that Free Republic has. Those who complain of being zotted or branded trolls are almost always guilty of racism or personal attacks on others. Anti-semitic white power types get zotted immediately, those with legitimate complaints about the government of Israel do not.
An anti FR review:
"FreeRepublic, back in the Clinton days, used to be the premiere news forum. A true government watchdog full of reasoned debate and rational thought.
Now, it's basically a Bush cheerleading site. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Back before election 2000, site owner Jim Robinson was very vocal in his dislike of Bush, even calling him a coke user and threatening armed revolt should Bush get elected. Now, however, posters who dare criticize Bush in any way are censored or banned. Old-time posters are being banned or leaving in droves, usually around the quarterly "Freep-a-thon" (fundraiser).
In fact, Robinson has openly declared that the goal of FreeRepublic is to re-elect Bush. This would seem to nullify their claims to be a a non-profit site (which wouldn't be allowed to promote political candidates), and throws their "fair use" justification for posting copyrighted articles into doubt.
It's really with a heavy heart I write those words. FreeRepublic, in my mind, could have changed the world. Now it's just an official web presence for the RNC."
Obviously, the allegations that FR and JR have become nothing more than rubber stamps for Bush, The Neocons and and the GOP is a divisive and hotly contested issue, and its as hotly contested right here, if the objections of the FR members and supporters are to be understood that they deny this as fact. I'm not sure if this is the case as they have objected to the Fahey info as being Non RS, but haven't argued that its untrue. (AFAIK) How do we solve this difference of opinion? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Surely somebody has published a FR Lexicon somewhere that is RS-V? I cannot find one. Otherwise I'll try to document each term individually. -- BenBurch 12:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Todd Brendan Fahey is a RS as is Lew Rockwell.com "(LRC) is a paleolibertarian web magazine run by Lew Rockwell, Burton Blumert, and others associated with the Center for Libertarian Studies. The site, which is also closely associated with the Ludwig von Mises Institute"
Fahey Bio:
He is also one of the most respected experts regarding CIA drug and 'mind control' experiments. Fahey on CIA Drug Experiments, and helped debunk the claims of a disturbed woman who alleged that she was a CIA 'mind control' victim, and that Dick Cheney kept her sister hostage as a sex slave in a cheap and tawdry hotel room somewhere. (A true patriot to clear 'Dead Eye' Dick's impugned reputation!) As I argued, if Fahey were making an 'exceptional' claim, like Jim Rob is an Alien from Planet Xenu, I would agree with you, but he is documenting 'generally accepted truths' corroborated by dozens of other sources, that unlike Fahey and Rockwell, aren't RS V sources, but add to the veracity of his claims. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 08:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
That was easy. Fahey's self-serving bio was already posted here. But since reviewing his self-promotion efforts convinced you so easily, you should read the negative things that he brags about. For all practical purposes, he is self-published. After every publishing house in New York rejected his first novel, he founded his own publishing company. [1] He seems to be proud of the quantity and variety of illegal drugs and alcohol he's used, and describes himself as a propagandist. [2] [3] "While I sucked lungsful of blonde Lebanese hash in London ..." [4]
This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?
Publication at LewRockwell.com is also no guarantee that Fahey is reliable. While it has published articles by many reliable people, it has also published articles by unreliable people:
-- BryanFromPalatine 11:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
" Chronicles_(magazine) is a U.S. monthly magazine published by the paleoconservative Rockford Institute. Its full current name is Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture. The magazine is known for promoting anti-globalism and anti-intervention stances within conservative politics. [7] The editor is Thomas Fleming; the executive editor is Scott P. Richert. Aaron D. Wolf is associate editor, and Chilton Williamson is the senior editor for books. Chronicles was founded in 1976, soon after the Institute's establishment earlier that year."
I found this article (published in the Dec 2002 issue) a few weeks ago, but mistakingly thought that it was only a forum post.
Notable quotes:
"Matters came to a head in early 2000 when Robinson (or "JimRob") speculated on George W. Bush’s connection to the airport in Mena, Arkansas where drug and gun-running allegedly took place during the 1980’s. Matt Drudge then dropped Free Republic’s link from the Drudge Report, and Goldberg took 2.000 members with her to start her own Lucianne.com."
"With so many posters banned, the diversity of thought on Free Republic has been reduced to the musings of neoconservatives, Zionists, Republicans who act is if Free Republic were an annex of GOP headquarters, those who consider George W. Bush a demigod and offer daily prayers to him, and other sycophants and cheerleaders..."
"Many banned Freepers have turned to such sites as Liberty Post (www.libertypost.org) and Liberty Forum (www.libertyforum.org) where members can post articles from anywhere and comment without interference from the thought police or fear of Siberian banishment."
The article was posted on FR:
[www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/793011/posts?page=51,50 Link on FR]
More posts on it, and related.
Discussion on Liberty Post - Fairness And Accuracy For All 08:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
(UI) Why are you editing this article from two accounts? Didn't you read WP:SOCK while you were blocked for sockpuppetry? Your consensus claims are fallacious as it would now have to be described as 3 to 2 for Fahey with Picaroon joining me and BB (That's not 'consensus' but I'm using your understanding so you can relate) - Fairness And Accuracy For All 20:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Some advice that editors may consider. See
WP:NPOV#Attributing_and_substantiating_biased_statements. Using attribution, sometime helps give context to our readers. In particular is a statement is contentious, describing who makes that statement, can help our readers reach their own conclusions about it. I do not want to get into the discussion of this person Fahey is a reliable source or not, as that may be not the issue. Please consider evaluating if that source represents a "significant" viewpoint instead.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 21:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
more criticism needed. The FR members and supporters here have agreed that this article should be similar to that of Democratic Underground as far as criticism. Take a look at that criticism section vs this one. They have cherry picked the most offensive quotes and included them verbatim like "The wife of former Vice Presidential candidate John Edwards allegedly criticized members who did not feel compassion for Laura Ingraham in her fight with breast cancer. Comments about Ingraham's cancer reportedly included: "She Probably Gave it to Herself," "All that Hate, Lies, Anger," and "I don't pray for Nazis or other Totalitarian Scum." The FR article takes an entirely different approach and describes documented actions like death threats against Clinton (which were quoted in the article) in as mild and exculpatory manner as possible. The lawsuit info doesn't count towards 'crticism' either. It's not the members fault that Jim Rob encouraged them to ignore copyright. Where's the parity? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. That works for me. -- BryanFromPalatine 21:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
proposed quotes to include:
"Followers of the Free Republic gained notoriety earlier for posting death threats against President Clinton. This was the most direct:"
"So, it doesn't matter if he [Bush] snorted coke as a youth? It was a long time ago, a youthful in-discretion? And, I, for one, am tired of taking orders from cokeheads and felons! Elect another one and I'll tell you what. I'll be ready for war! It'll be time to take up arms and run the filthy lying bastards out!"Posted on 08/20/1999 03:19:31 PDT by Jim Robinson [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37bd2556430e.htm SOURCE]
Any objections? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
You seriously believe that the truth of the matter is that Free Republic has been infested with enemies who are sufficiently able to sound like a coherent whatever-it-is-that-you-think-you are-there to avoid a speedy zot, but who are also the source of all extremist rhetoric and horrible grammar on Free Republic? Do you then also believe that America is still infested with Soviet deep-cover agents waiting for their "Manchurian Candidate" phone call? How about the Tooth Fairy? -- BenBurch 22:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Chronicles states that during the late 1990s "[l]eftists began to infiltrate the site, posting articles or posing as conservatives to act as agents provocateurs." This is the same magazine that your friend FAAFA has just introduced as a reliable source. That is sufficient proof that SOME of the FR activities that have been criticized were the work of "leftist ... agents provocateurs." There's your fifty cents. -- BryanFromPalatine 22:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
OR: BFP, please explain how this addition isn't OR. I need a good laugh. "It is possible that many of these incidents may have been the fault of such leftist ... agents provocateurs." Why are you editing this article from two accounts, BFP, and IP 209? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 22:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The Chronicles article is not a reliable source (as, say, the New York Times would be) but closer to an opinion. If we grant that it's a notable opinion, it should be restated with attribution to its owner, as I just did. Ashibaka (tock) 22:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
IMHO this issue is a significant part of FR history and should be included. It also speaks to how significant FR is in the blogoshere, and even outside the blogoshere.
I haven't seen the documentary 'Shut Up and Sing' yet, but understand that it either credits (or blames, depending on your POV) FR for the 'boycott' against them. I hear that it even includes screen shots of FR posts and a discussion of FR, after Jim Rob refused to be interviewed for the documentary.
This is what was said on 'Hardball' :
I'll write a prospective paragraph about this tonight. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 01:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I have again reverted your vandalism of this page. Your changes are not supported by consensus. There was no discussion of any changes at all after Ashibaka's last edit. Discuss your proposed changes and then we will reach a consensus for or against them. Don't continue to ignore the participation of RWR8189 or my participation, or Ashibaka's, or Jossi's. If you continue to vandalize the consensus version that Administrator Ashibaka posted, I will report you for your vandalism, and seek to have you blocked. -- BryanFromPalatine 01:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Two weeks for "General Disruption" BenBurch 02:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
WP:NPA, careful. Prodego talk 02:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I've received a complaint that one editor is attempting to cite an unreliable source at this article. What exactly is the argument? Durova Charge 02:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the gist of the claims:
"dating back to the [2000] GOP primary Presidential campaigns – it appears to many that the "independent, grassroots conservatism" emphasis has been replaced by a rank-and-file boostership for the Republican National Committee and all that President Bush sees fit to offer for the nation – an increasingly liberal (Big Government) vision, in the eyes of many "grassroots conservatives."
Corroborated by another WRITTEN RS V source, Chronicles Magazine Talk:Free_Republic#New_RS_V_Source saying:
"With so many posters banned, the diversity of thought on Free Republic has been reduced to the musings of neoconservatives, Zionists, Republicans who act is if Free Republic were an annex of GOP headquarters, those who consider George W. Bush a demigod and offer daily prayers to him, and other sycophants and cheerleaders..." - Fairness And Accuracy For All 02:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, being a Ph.D. candidate in English literature counts for something in the field of English literature. Other than that he appears to be mostly self-published. If he writes for a reliable source (such as a freelance feature in a reputable magazine) then that would be acceptable here. Otherwise no-go. His general sobriety doesn't interest me per se. Durova Charge 03:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I readded the terminology again and will add the FR link as a ref. Since we are using FR as an uncontested RS for something as important as 'budget' when there have been allegations of serious financial irregularities including hundreds of thousands of dollars raised and squandered in the LAT V FR lawsuit, and $110,000 wasted alone when their lawyer filed the claim in the wrong state, Clarity Hilarity How FreeRepublic.com lost a "First Amendment" lawsuit and wasted $110,000 on a frivolous lawsuit - Fairness And Accuracy For All 20:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to remove the weasel words from the intro, specifically "The site has also been controverisal for what their critics consider inappropriate calls to action posted by some of its by members". Unless Freepers support death threats, which are RS V sourced, there's no need to include that, and it's actually weasely - right?
RWR1989 good to see you back! On Dec 20 in mediation, you agreed that the crticism section be modeled after that of the Democratic Underground article. Since then, you have introduced several sourced quotes from DU members into the criticism section of that article, such as " Comments about Ingraham's cancer reportedly included: "She Probably Gave it to Herself," "All that Hate, Lies, Anger," and "I don't pray for Nazis or other Totalitarian Scum." The FR article takes an entirely different approach and describes the documented words and actions of FR members, like death threats against Clinton (which were quoted in several articles) in as mild and exculpatory manner as possible. Obviously, 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander' so we need to include some actual quotes in the FR criticism section, correct? I suggest "People, we are going to have to go to Washington, and kill this horrible bastard [President Clinton] ourselves! He is now threatening my children and grandchildren, and I will kill him, before I let him kill my kids for his non-legacy!" OK? - Fairness And Accuracy For All 08:29, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
removed budget claim and link. I removed the link to the 'budget' and claims regarding it. Apparently, the link went to the FR donation page (it never loaded for me) which is a clear WP violation along with being non RS V for an issue that has been a 'bone of contention' to some former FR-members turned critics. (I don't know how that was EVER accepted) I don't think we need to document the alleged $30,000 misappropriated by the FR member whose past criminal record ('17 time convicted felon') was known to FR management who allegedly authorized her appointment to a position to handle money. [11] - Fairness And Accuracy For All 10:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I do believe something should be included about how users at the Free Republic will urge others to 'freep' a poll, to change the results of it so it reflects their viewpoint. - Jarn 00:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Another sock of BryanFromPalatine ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) -- BenBurch 03:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
(UI) Read my comments on the Dixie Chicks ban a few sections up. I have't had a chance to look for RS V sources yet. It does speak to FR's 'power' though. I think there also must be some RS V discussion about how amazingly popular they are, in terms of web traffic, and that is notable too. The issue of FR's contribution to the Killian memos is disputed. Most sources (even conservative sources) credit Powerline and LGF a lot more than they do FR. - Fairness And Accuracy Dan Rather 22:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I note the recent addition of a comment about purges and a link to an article on that site. Comments please? -- BenBurch 19:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's one RS V source about Tony Snow's participation on FR. Tony Snow on FR There are a lot more mentions, but all I found were blogs. It appears that after he got the WH job, they deleted all his FR posts, but many are archived. With posts like this about his boss, it's no wonder. "He (Bush) inhabits a political Oz, where the colors are happy and the tough decisions can wait until the oracle speaks. When he stumbles over abstruse matters of foreign policy, for instance, he actually jokes about his cluelessness." "This is how frat boys behave when they know the class nerd is going to take their exams for them." OUCH! (he's got an amazing command of the English language. I'd never heard of the word 'abstruse', and thought it might have been a misspelling of 'obtuse'. New word! Thanks Tony! ;-) - Fairness And Accuracy For President Bush 22:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that Free Republic is used as a source for hundreds of articles. [13] In some cases it is used as a convenience link to copyrighted articles from other sources which may or may not be otherwise available on the web.[www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/576453/posts][www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/939567/posts] In other cases, it is used as a direct source. [14][www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b9029683567.htm] I'm not sure that either use is justifiable. Are there other opinions about this? - Will Beback · † · 03:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Please strive to maintain basic talk-page discipline. Comments about other editors, personal opinions about the subject of the article and similar discussions are not for these pages. There are other fora out there for these, that are much more suited to debates about this subject. Here we discuss the article and nothing else. I have refactored a comment by FAAA and placed a WP:NPA warning in his/her talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:11, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/BryanFromPalatine. Please can we not hear from you again, Bryan, until your block expires? When that happens I am happy to work with you again on this article. -- BenBurch 00:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, BryanFromPalatine ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s two-week block gets reset from today, and I expect that additional time will be added on. Another week or even two is merited. If any of his proven socks like ClemsonTiger ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) edit, I expect that Bryan will get a permaban. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 02:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Oooops - I spoke too soon. Bryan/Clemson/Johnny/Arlington/Helvetica/DP1976/Mishwaka/Hums/Devin/Andrew and John Does 1-99 have been permabanned. Check the block log for Head Puppeteer BryanFromPalatine ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). "Justice served is justice done" - Fairness And Accuracy For All 02:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Add your own items. strike out items as they are done. Thanks! --
BenBurch 06:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the cut made by Carolyn, since there are some larger issues involved. She removed that paragraph for a very, very good reason. Please do not second guess her. Dino 22:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Jeff Stein in salon.com July 13, 1999 writes:
"T.J. Walker, an online columnist who dug up a passel of ominous posts on the Clintons in the past few months (another sample: "People, we are going to have to go to Washington, and kill this horrible bastard ourselves!"), claimed that Free Republic's "political influence is rising even as death threats occur more frequently on its message boards." As evidence, he cited the upcoming "Treason is the Reason" rally that, in addition to featuring Barr and Hitchens, is also touting speeches by Rep. James Rogan, R-Calif., another failed House impeachment manager."
I think 'Dino' might be pulling our collective legs. Salon - Free for All at Free Republic - Fairness And Accuracy For All 23:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Why are Wikimedia folks involved in removing sourced paragraphs from this article? No explanation or edit summary was left other than somebody else saying that there are "larger issues" involved. WHAT are the "larger issues"? Wikipedia is not censored is a key element of the creed here. -- BenBurch 23:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
How does Dino (aka Bryan) know what TJ Walker told Wikimedia Foundation??? -- BenBurch 00:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Note: 'Dino' claimed "I contacted TJ Walker and asked him whether he authored the article. He said, "Of course not." Of course not? Salon quotes him, and here's something TJ wrote at about the same time he 'didn't' write the FR Death Threat article : "Don't get me started on the Fox News Channel, but when host Bill O'Reilly went on vacation recently, who was the replacement? Former Congressman Bob Dornan, the wife-beating, right wing wacko who has been ostracized by Newt Gingrich and Tom Delay for being "too out there." Enough said." TJ Walker We're being played for rubes. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 00:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It's sure odd that TJWalker.com LISTS that very article : "7-6-99 Is the FreeRepublic.Com Really DeathThreat.Com? "' Although none of the links work, I'd say that's conclusive proof. TJWALKER ALL COLUMNS - Fairness And Accuracy For All 04:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Pending any further information:
I've edited the section (since it was a blatent copyvio) and added it back in.
brenneman 00:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
See his talk page. BenBurch 13:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Result was unblock denied. Too bad, really, I would rather he had decided to abide by the rules here, apologized, and gotten unblocked. He's a smart kid, and likely could contribute significantly to this effort had he tried. -- BenBurch 17:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't see anything POV about Hathorn's edits. Everything outside of the 2nd paragraph is pretty much straight copyediting, can we restore that to begin with, and then discuss that? - Merzbow 19:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with the following sentence "Some liberal critics claim that Free Republic has posted calls for inappropriate action by some of the members [3] whom the opponents contend advocate political extremism." The death threats are documented by Salon, and other RS V sources. This sentence needs a rewrite, and mention of 'death threats' IMHO. - Fairness And Accuracy For All 21:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Jerome Corsi (which used to be in the article), Tony Snow, and Dixie Chicks.
Please help rewrite, and linkify. I have to find the link on FR where JimRob admits that Tony asked him to pull all his posts, and close the account. Apparently he never wrote anything really bad, and pulling the posts of somone who just got a high profile admin job is not unusual. Comments, objections, praise welcome. Fairness And Accuracy For All 06:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Please check my edits, but I don't think either of those sources qualify as RS, and I don't think we need any information about Robinson here in this article which is NOT about him. Thanks! BenBurch 23:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
As of 1/21/07, against an Arab-American owned business that supports a U.S. redeployment in Iraq—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.33.185.185 ( talk • contribs).
Here is a reliable source regarding the death threats. Though it isn't stated explicitly in the article, my sources in WI law enforcement tell me that Free Republic is being focused on as a source of a hacker attack and several death threats: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=555527
Per the news story,
West Allis police said Monday that they were aware of the controversy. "We're monitoring the situation, in case somebody decides to retaliate," Capt. Tom Kukowski said." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.33.185.185 ( talk) 18:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
The person I spoke to relayed my query to Captain Ponzi (not sure I got the spelling right) and informed me that FR is one of the groups they're looking at.
What happened to RWR1889? He seems to have lost interest in anything Freepalicious except for reverting vandalism. Tough times! I found a RS V source for the $60,000 settlement that the City of Fresno paid JimRob for calling FR a 'Hate Group'. Did he really spend it on an RV? Maybe one of you guys can add it to the article. Freepers = LOVERS, not HATERS! - Fairness & Accuracy For All 06:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
After contacting the ever patient and cooperative Carolyn Doran (several times) and Attorney Brad Patrick (once) at the Wikimedia Foundation, and working patiently at Unblock-en-l with Yamla, Luna Santin and another admin that I only know as "Larry," I've been unblocked.
I will not abuse their trust, and I am grateful for their intervention on my behalf. Let's all relax for a moment, have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine if you're inclined, and decompress. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.
I refer everyone who has any questions (or snarky remarks) to this notice on my Talk page. Dino 18:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Dino: You claimed on Jan. 15, 2007, that YOU contacted TJ Walker, the author of the contested article and that TJ told you that he never wrote that article! " I contacted TJ Walker and asked him whether he authored the article. He said, "Of course not." here (when TJ Walker certainly did write the article - and it's even archived from his website on the www! here) TJ Walker is a published notable author and RS whose work has recently appeared on CBS and National Review Here is a list of the dozens of articles, including the one in question. TJ Walker - All Columns 1999-2000 from the time period in question.
Could you explain the inconsistancy between your claim of TJ saying he didn't write the article, and the truth, and chronicle any interactions you had with TJ Walker ? Thanks ! There's a new investigation into these actions by the way - and it WILL involve TJ, since your hollow denials and phony claims demand so. By the way, TJ Walker doesn't suffer fools and liars lightly. - Fairness & Accuracy For Delay, Ney, Abramoff & Cunningham 00:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Wikipedia:Libel.
Administrators encountering biographies that are unsourced and controversial in tone, where there is no NPOV version to revert to, should delete the article without discussion (see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion criterion G10 for more details).
Jimmy Wales has said:
He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:
Folks, cite it or don't put it in. All unsourced material should be removed immediately upon sight, no questions asked. CyberAnth 19:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Any assertion in a biography of a living person that might be defamatory if untrue must be sourced. Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate No original research and Verifiability, and could lead to libel claims.
Information available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Information found in self-published books, zines or websites/ blogs should never be used ...
Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content in biographies or biographical information. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.
Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of positive or negative claims that rely on association.
This is a contentious, emotionally charged, politically delicate topic. Based on the experiences of the City of Fresno regarding their "hate group" allegation, Jim Robinson will not hesitate to take legal action to protect his name and reputation, and those of Free Republic; I am doing my very best to prevent that from happening. When writing about such litigious people and organizations, it is best to err on the side of caution.
The alleged "TJ Walker article," even if it was written by TJ Walker, was self-published; and as you've mentioned, TJ Walker is a liberal. That, by itself, is sufficient grounds for removing it under WP:BLP. That article was then published on AmericanPolitics.com, a highly partisan left-wing website. This is also sufficient grounds for removing it under WP:BLP.
Even if WP:BLP does not apply, Wikipedia:Articles about ongoing enterprises surely applies. While it is not yet Wikipedia policy, it has been proposed as policy and that proposal should meet favorable responses. It closely follows WP:BLP and in many places, it is a word-for-word copy. Dino 15:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I plan to totally ignore any comments here by User:DeanHinnen and in fact, to totally ignore his existence henceforth. He can say whatever he wishes to say about this article, but I will edit it as though he never had said a word. -- BenBurch 17:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Admin Jossi is one of the chief contributors to re-writing WP RS V to WP:ATT. I have asked him to return to mediation that was going well until Bryan created 5 (?) sock accounts to sway consensus. I hope Dino will 'sign on' to the still-valid mediation agreement and allow Jossi to guide any proposed major changes to the article. Maybe we should get the WMF attorney Brad to weigh in on specific third-party claims about FR and JimRob, as Dino is concerned about libel issues? - Fairness & Accuracy For All
Dino - please sign your posts, and there's no need to fill up this page with cut and pastes from WP. All of us here (expect for one or two) are quite familiar with the applicable policies. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me understand this. An article was written in the past by a person named TJ Walker, right? That article was later removed by the author from hios website, on the basis that it was libelous? Is there any official retraction by TJ Walker to that effect? If that is the case, you can cite both the article and the retraction. If there is no retraction, citing the article would appropriate as per WP:V, even if it is from a cached version or an Internet archive. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Another question, why is it WP:BLP mentioned? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The site we're talking about has a documented history of being so extreme (up until 9/11 when they underwent a 'sea change') that they theorized that Clinton bombed the Murrah building in Oklahoma City so that he could pass anti-terror legislation....
[www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ae09bb25c23.htm The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Reichstag Fire]
[www.freerepublic.com/~actionnewsbill/links?U=%2Ffocus%2Ff-news%2Fbrowse More claims from this time period] (an official FR 'page' compiled by FR - and as such, reflects their views)
And even speculated that the US. Gov, not Al Qaeda, bombed The USS Cole : "IMO the Cole bombing, if not another American Reichstag event, is AWFULLY convenient for a lot of Clinton goals.." [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a208ce00453.htm Cole bombing - An American Reichstag?]
I have never added anything to the Free Republic article but documented claims from verifiable secondary sources that are 'accepted truths'. I also ask that we wait until TJ Walker and American Politics Journal weigh in to verify or deny Dino's claims that TJ Walker admitted to him that he didn't write his July 06, 1999 article entitled 'Is FreeRepublic.Com Really DeathThreat.Com?' before deleting this source.
Note that all the facts above are sourced from Free Republic itself. Let's not try and sweep FRs documented extremist past under the rug - it's neither 'accurate' nor 'fair' like is my credo! - Fairness & Accuracy For All 00:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The site we're talking about has a documented history of being so extreme (up until 9/11 when they underwent a 'sea change') that they theorized that Clinton bombed the Murrah building in Oklahoma City so that he could pass anti-terror legislation....
Is that the official position of Free Republic, or the surveyed position of a majority of its members? Read the thread. Do not characterize it as the official Free Republic position unless you can prove it. BenBurch has just been blocked for 24 hours for mischaracterization. What you are describing is the position of a small segment of Freepers: the tinfoil hat crowd. That crowd is constantly subject to ridicule by the rest of the Free Republic membership. You are succumbing to the usual temptation: characterizing the most flaky, freaky quotations you can find as those of the "typical Freeper."
I also ask that we wait until TJ Walker and American Politics Journal weigh in to verify or deny Dino's claims ...
Earlier, you suggested a deadline of Tuesday. We shouldn't even wait that long. The burden of proof is on you under WP:RS, WP:V and WP:BLP, and until you satisfy that burden of proof it should be removed. Dino 00:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
To: Freedom Wins
"So, it doesn't matter if he snorted coke as a youth? It was a long time ago, a youthful indiscretion? Kinda like people who frequented sneakeasies during prohibition? Kind of a cute story, eh? Well, how about all the people whose lives have been destroyed by being arrested for the felony of drug possession? What about the millions of people who are rotting away in your filthy drug infested prisons at this very moment?
Well, by God, if you people insist on electing another cokehead as President, you damned well better throw open all the prison cell doors and free every man, woman, and child you're holding on drug charges. And if you're gonna elect another drug felon as President, you'd better rescind each and every one of your unconstitutional drug laws now on the books, including all of your unconstitutional search and seizure laws, and your asset forfeiture laws, and your laws that enable your unconstitutional snooping into our bank accounts and cash transactions. Well, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You people are sick! Conservatives my ass. You people are nothing but a bunch of non-thinking hypocrits! You're a shame and a disgrace to the Republic!
And, I, for one, am tired of taking orders from cokeheads and felons! Elect another one and I'll tell you what. I'll be ready for war! It'll be time to take up arms and run the filthy lying bastards out!"
2 Posted on 08/20/1999 03:19:31 PDT by Jim Robinson [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37bd2556430e.htm REPLY #2] - You accuse me of misquoting him or misinterpeting him???! Fairness & Accuracy For All
Yes, you misquoted him. He did not call Bush a cokehead and a felon. He is chastising the WP for allowing Bush to not answer questions about it. To wit, Bush is President and Robinson doesn't seem all that upset. But I doubt he would be happy if the U.S. elected another Clinton so he wants those questions asked and answered (drug use and felonies). -- Tbeatty 15:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, use my full username. -- Tbeatty 15:35, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's his comment in the thread:
To: To All:
I was addressing my comments to the author and supporters of the view subscribed to in this editorial. Does the Wall Street Journal now claim that a felon, any felon (forget about the name Bush for a moment), should be allowed to be our President? And do they further say that the precedent set by Clinton's stonewalling is ok? That as long as a presidential candidate stonewalls on questions of his integrity that it is ok? If he can stonewall the press and the people will fall for it that it's all ok? If cocaine use is a felony, any person who used it at any time in is life is a felon and he should not be qualified to run as president. It appears to me that we have a potential candidate who realizes this fact and this is why he refuses to answer the question. I just kinda blew my top when I see what is normally a conservative editorial page spin for a felon. Forget the name. They are suggesting that if a candidate has a felony in his background that he should simply follow Clinton's precedent and stonewall. I cannot believe I read this in a Wall Street Journal editorial.
89 Posted on 08/20/1999 10:03:57 PDT by Jim Robinson
Yes you misquoted him. -- Tbeatty 04:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah - two hours after he posted his screed and he saw that he had a full blown mutiny on his hands he tried to backtrack a little as damage control - but STILL alleges A SECOND TIME that Bush is a cokehead and felon (HERE) 'If cocaine use is a felony, any person who used it at any time in is life is a felon and he should not be qualified to run as president' . Or are you gonna claim now that he was talking about Klintoon? Fairness & Accuracy For All
Dino - all your worries are for naught!
"Thanks to section 230 of the Federal Communications Decency Act (CDA), which became law in 1996, Wikipedia is most likely safe from legal liability for libel, regardless of how long an inaccurate article stays on the site. That's because it is a service provider as opposed to a publisher such as Salon.com or CNN.com." Wikipedia and libel - 18:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
"Dino," something is not adding up with all your "concern" about getting Wiki embroiled in a legal battle with Jim Robinson, and urging everyone to "play it safe" - especially since your take on "play it safe" always seems to translate to don't post anything unflattering, no matter how truthful, about Jim Robinson or Free Republic. I'm sure a lot of us who edit here on Wiki were born at night - just not last night. Carthago delenda est 00:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Note : That Admin User:Jossi who is heavily involved with BLP, LIVING, and re-writing RS V to ATT is of the opinion that the source is fine, even as he accepts as fact Dino's unproven claim that the article was 'pulled' for being libelous! "Let me understand this. An article was written in the past by a person named TJ Walker, right? That article was later removed by the author from his website, on the basis that it was libelous? [unknown] Is there any official retraction by TJ Walker to that effect? If that is the case, you can cite both the article and the retraction. If there is no retraction, citing the article would appropriate as per WP:V, even if it is from a cached version or an Internet archive". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC) link Why is Dino even persuing this, when Jossi, who is the long time mediator on the Free Republic article, [just now returning to medition] said it was OK?
From 1999:
Defendant Jim Robinson is the owner and operator of the two website Defendants: Electronic Orchard and Free Republic,[10] Electronic Orchard is a for-profit limited liability company in the business of "Internet Programming & Design Services."[11] Free Republic is a for-profit limited liability company in the business of "Internet discussion and marketing". Fairness & Accuracy For All
From the Dec 2002 Chronicles magazine article. I would like to summarize the following:
And add the following quote verbatim.
Don't forget - I am the one who just researched, compiled, wrote and added the PRO-FREE REPUBLIC additions about Tony Snow and the Dixie Chicks, and even the pro-FR Walter Reed info too. I'm think I'm becoming Freeper at HEART ! Are we all OK with this? - Fairness & Accuracy For All 08:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
So do I. Restore it to the version that Jossi created, because you've been removing or muting the "good" portions and reinforcing and adding "bad" portions ever since he posted it. That was a balanced, NPOV article and you've been steadily turning it into more and more of a hatchet job. Dino 14:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
1 | Talk to the other parties involved | |
2 | Bring in outside editor | |
3 | Informal mediation | |
4 | Discuss with third parties | |
5 | Conduct a survey | |
6 | Formal Mediation | |
7 | Arbitration |
RfA doesn't provide a binding decision anyway. The parties (specifically BenBurch and FAAFA) could abandon the decision and start warring over content again if it doesn't go their way. What's the point? The Arbitration Committee is the only way to obtain a binding decision. Dino 19:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The ArbCom will not accept to hear the case, unless all elements of WP:DR have been exhausted.
I have just offered to participate in formal mediation and it was instantly rejected: "Then the dispute ends here." Jossi, what's the next step in dispute resolution after formal mediation has been rejected? Dino 20:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Please file a WP:RFD and see how it goes. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
At what point do we force a stub version and make everyone start from scratch. Simon Pulsifer's version looks like a good place to start back from.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 21:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I've already created a great place to start. Want to see it? How do we create a Sandbox page like Jossi's? Dino 21:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's try this: Sandbox This includes the specific mention of the phrase "death threats" that the Democratic Underground people are fighting so very hard to include. It is based on Jossi's compromise version but contains some new material, and I've started creating a consistent system of references that should be completed. Most importantly, it removed the libelous material and it satisfies WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. What do you think? Dino 21:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I would like to summarize the following:
And add the following quote verbatim.
Thanks for your endorsement of Scalon. This makes things peachy. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 22:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Dino's version is fair and balanced, exactly the way it's written. This is an encyclopedia. It must be neutral and balanced. There is already plenty of criticism in Dino's version of the article. His concerns about WP:NPOV#Undue_weight are right on the mark. Providing a link to the Scallon article is sufficient if readers want to know more. Fensteren 22:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
When asked to file an RFC about this article you filed this instead. Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/BenBurch] -- BenBurch 21:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I think, that at this stage after all the mess with sockpuppets and other disruptions, a user RFC is not the way forward. It creates further animosity and will not be helpful. I would suggest that one of you file a WP:RFM and give a chance to an experienced mediator to assist with the dispute. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
"Dino, regardless of your intentions, posting a comment stating that you are a part of the FR legal team and stating that you are here to prevent wikipedia getting sued, like someone else did, is what we class as a legal threat. It has the implication that if we don't do something then there will be a lawsuit brought against the site.
Stop threatening legal action. Also, I would advise looking at WP:COI with regards your involvement in the organisation. If there are legal issues you wish to discuss I would advise your organisation to contact the foundation directly. Any actions accompanied with what we see as threats are liable to get you blocked."-Localzuk(talk) 19:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC) Fairness & Accuracy For All 23:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Outside View from User:Merzbow [who started out SUPPORTING BryanFromPalatine, Dino's purported brother]
I've had no experience with Ben or FAAFA before the short time I spent on the Free Republic article, so I can't comment on their behavior before that point or on other articles. But although they freely admit their own political leanings, they've been fair as far as I can tell in their edits to the article, and have been willing to compromise when presented with well-reasoned arguments. The big story here is Bryan's amazing months-long campaign of elaborate sockpuppetry, forum-shopping, disinformation, incivility, and quite obvious conflicts of interest. Him and his "brother", whether real or imagined, should be quickly escorted off any article related to the Free Republic. - Merzbow 01:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC) - Fairness & Accuracy For All
is he a particularly prominent person or is he just some guy who writes on an editorial page? A minority opinion should not be given undue weight, and probably should not be included at all. Ken Arromdee 00:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
From Fensteren, another victim of false accusations of sockpuppetry: "The presence of people like BenBurch and others like him in this Wikiclique is poisonous to Wikipedia. They foster an atmosphere of conflict and venom, rather than collegiality and cooperation. Good people are being driven off, or leaving without a word ... The presence of such people is the reason why I have not continued to participate on Wikipedia to a greater degree. Careful review of the diffs and contrib histories confirms, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that BenBurch has formed a street gang. Whenever one of them gets into a disagreement, another one shows up, probably in response to a phone call or e-mail. BenBurch always baited BryanFromPalatine. Administrators blamed the victim, because he always took the bait and reacted in the wrong way. BenBurch should share his fate."
From VoiceOfReason: "I was asked by User:BenBurch to comment on this page, so here it is: Ben, I really think you don't need to be editing Free Republic any more than User:Jinxmchue needs to be editing Democratic Underground. ... one reads as 'Sugar and spice and everything nice' while the other reads as 'snakes and snails and puppy dog tails.' ... I don't doubt the conflict could have been avoided had people avoided editing encyclopedia articles on subjects towards which they have a negative bias. That goes for everyone involved in the present politicization of Wikipedia."
From Tbeatty: "User:BenBurch and User:Fairness And Accuracy For All are two like-minded editors. They tag-team articles to get across their viewpoint. I don't believe they are purposely harming the project but their POV warrior mentality does have that effect. This is clearly seen on both the Free Republic and Democratic Underground articles. ... User:DeanHinnen has a valid point that these articles have been hijacked by POV warriors and they should all be banned from these articles. The articles about FR and DU should be about the websites and their broad history, not the controversy that was made up in the previous two weeks. Both sites are formidable and reputable political websites and their Wikipedia should reflect that rather than as 'one upmanship' paragraphs of criticism and commentary by their respective fans/detractors posing as Wikipedia editors."
From Rjensen: "I had numerous unplasant experiences with BenBurch and his allies on the Henry Ford article. He refuses to accept the policy that statements have to be based on reliable sources, and ridicules and harasses patient explanations of why his ideas are not accepted by experts. He will not look at serious evidence that refutes his POV and attacks ediors who present it." Dino 11:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I would only say this: continue using Wikipedia as a political battleground, and the most likely outcome is that eventually all editors involved will be banned from editing this article. I have seen this happening in articles about which there are strong POVs and in which most of the effort is spent in editwarring, using sockpuppets, and other disruptions. I would encourage editors to stop the word fight/edit war here and to file a request for mediation at WP:RFM. None of the involved parties should look forward to an ArbCom case... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)