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I know this is very minor but it seems that he left for Paris at 21, not 20. (according to Philips Classics Compact Companions titled "Chopin" by Christopher Headington. It was published by Simon & Schuster". ISBN 10951750) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.110.130 ( talk) 10:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Left Poland (Nov 2,1830)->Kalisz(?)->Breslau and Dresden(?)->Prague(?)->Vienna(Nov 23,1830-Jul20,1831)->Salzburg(?)->Munich(stayed for about a month)-> Stuttgart(?)-(trip that took about 2 weeks)->France,probably Paris(Mid of September,1831) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.111.218.122 ( talk) 11:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the statement The only known photograph of Frédéric Chopin... is wrong. I know of another (see davgri8.freehostia.com/uploads/ch11.jpg) although admittedly I can't remember where I can across it. Thoughts? DehGriff 23:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I first heard of Chopin while I was reading James Hilton's Lost Horizon. I also just read The Awakening by Kate Chopin. Chopin's piano music plays an (slightly) important role in both of these books. Could someone please add a section that lists books where he is mentioned? Thanks, Greenblade99 02:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
It would be great if there could be a section listing the students of Chopin, perhaps with thumbnail biographies (when available). --Kosboot 17:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
There aren't many of them, and few (if any) achieved much fame. The best of them was reputed to be Karl Filtsch, who died young. Kullak and Mikuli achieved some fame, mainly as editors of the music of Chopin. Alkan may have been a pupil (or just a friend) of his.
Fryderyk Chopin's student Carl Filtsch (1830-1845): see www.freewebs.com/fjgajewski/
Isn't "widely regarded.." as "famous" redundant? Fame encompasses wide regards. How about "famously regarded" - ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.188.25 ( talk)
I deleted some of the citation needed and original research markings. It was very cluttered, but maybe that section oughta be removed altogether, unless we can get some facts to back it up. ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by O Violinista ( talk • contribs) 19:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
To clarify before the discussion is taken seriously: this was an April Fool's joke done by a classical music magazine... see the last comment for details.
Here is a link to the recording: http://media.putfile.com/Chopin-playing-the-minute-waltz-1840 In this article there was no mention of the fact that the first intentional audio recording ever made was that of Frédéric Chopin playing the minute waltz. Isn't anyone aware of this? It was in 1840 and the recording was made at the home of George Sand using a glass cylinder covered with the soot from a candle which was scratched by a pin connected to a diaphragm. The cylinder was made to rotate by the mechanism of a clock and the device was only able to record one minutes worth. The recording is remarkable and due to the light action of the piano, much lighter than todays pianos, Chopin was able to play extremely fluently and at the end of the piece the sound of a man laughing can be heard, whether it be Chopin himself or the inventor of the device or someone else isn't known. The man who invented the device was able to record the performance but was unable to play the recording once made and therefore was unable to sell the idea. But knowing what he had done was significant he documented the event and preserved it. Many years later a box with the device and documentation was discovered and with modern techniques and the use of a computer, a laser, and a sinclavier, the historic recording was realized and can be heard. It has lots of hiss which one would expect and some popping sounds but aside from that it is utterly astounding. The piano has a good tone and the playing is magnificent. I have searched the web for information on this but have come up with nothing. My information comes from a magazine which is no longer in publication called 'Classic CD' magazine which had an article, the gist of which I have just reported, and a CD of the recording (XOHA CDO10491). Isn't it amazing to discover that the first intentional audio recording ever made was not someone saying "Testing - testing 1,2,3" but this wonderful historic performance of Chopin? (scottlesbme@yahoo.com) Scottlesbme 22:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, can't give a cite, but soon after that magazine had come out, I listened to a show on KPFK radio in Los Angeles, where they discussed this. Sorry, but it's a hoax. Bunthorne 15:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a link to the recording in question: http://media.putfile.com/Chopin-playing-the-minute-waltz-1840 I didn't hear the radio show on this but the article and the recording I found compelling. Although there wasn't a photo of the apparatus, the cylinder or the documentation. Furthermore, one would think someone else would have spoken of this although I've seen great things ignored in the past in fact regularly so it's hard to say what is the truth in this matter but I wouldn't accept KPFK in LA as the final word on anything. All I can assure with any certainty is is that it isn't me playing. If it isn't Chopin he or she certainly could play. (scottlesbme@yahoo.com)
Just want to make sure I didn't go out on an unsupported limb here. Chopin seems to be one of those composers who tends to be claimed as their own by various nationalist groups. I suggest that we keep his nationality out of the first sentence, and leave the full description of his national backgrounds in the intro, allowing the reader to decide for themself whether being born in Poland makes him Polish, or adopting France makes him French, or whatever else they choose to extrapolate from the information given. Mak (talk) 22:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
"Chopin wrote almost exclusively for the piano, and published little music that did not involve it." (Third paragraph.)
"All of Chopin's works involve the piano, whether solo or accompanied." (Under the heading 'Works'.)
This is a contradiction - the first statement implies that he wrote some work without piano; the second states that he did not. I am 99% sure that the second statement is correct but cannot be 100% certain, therefore cannot edit it. But whichever is correct, it is still a contradiction.
Musical lottie 01:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
There is not a single extant original piece by Chopin that did not involve the piano in some way. However, among his lost works are:
In c.1831, he arranged the aria Casta Diva from Bellini's Norma for piano accordion (!) (KK VIIa/1). I know of no recording of this.
I think it is safe to say all of his published music involved the piano. (The KK and B numbers refer to the catalogue numbers of these works in the lists compiled and published by K Kopylanska and MJE Brown respectively). JackofOz 03:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
In the formative years section, it makes mention of Chopin's lessons under Wilhelm Würfel. Why exactly were they irregular (it might be useful to add it)?. Justinmeister 16:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Asteroid, airport, pop-singer's album. The latter seems out of place here, just as Gazebo's "I like Chopin" hit would be. If there is no particular controversy, it'll be deleted. -- Beaumont (@) 19:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I know this is only one article with an infobox on a composer, but it's the first one I noticed, so…
Why do we put the flag (in this case ) next to where the person was born, but not where that person died (in this case )? — The still-Esperanzan $PЯINGrαgђ Always loyal! 20:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
How about make a "Background Information" box on the upper-right corner as what other articles have such as Liszt, Bach, Mozart, etc.? --- Sautiller 07:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In 1835 Chopin visited his family in Karlsbad, whence he accompanied his parents to Děčín where they lived, and then to Warsaw. This suggests that he did indeed return to Poland after previously having decided not to, after hearing of the 1830 uprising. I've never heard or read anywhere that he ever went back. Is there a citation for this visit to Warsaw? JackofOz 23:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
In the introduction, there is the claim that "Chopin was the first Western Classical composer to imbue Slavic elements into his music". While I would agree that his output made Slavic elements broadly prominent and popular, I think it is not true to state that he was the first. For instance, I am pretty sure that there is at least one orchestral piece by Telemann which explicitly includes style elements from Polish folk dances, and I seem to recall that J.S.Bach's 1st orchestral suite also includes a Polonaise. Later examples include Beethovens Polonaise in C op.89 and the Polonaise for Military Band WoO 21. -- TomR 02:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Frédéric Chopin | |
---|---|
Background information | |
Genres | Classical, Romantic |
Occupation(s) | Composer, Pianist |
Instrument(s) | Piano |
Hi, do you guys think is ok the infobox I've just added?-- Emperor Walter Humala · ( talk? · help! ) 21:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the only person commenting on not wanting an infobox above was Mak, so let's put it up to a vote on whether the page should have an infobox or not. Vote support to have an infobox and against to not have an infobox. I've put an example of what the infobox might look like on the right. - cgilbert( talk| contribs) 05:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
IMHO a vote is out of place here. Personally, I don't care much if the Chopin article is with or without an infobox. I just think that the Chopin article should stick to the guidelines. All classical composers like Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, use the Musical Artist infobox as recommended by the Musicians Project. I see no reason why the Chopin article should follow a different direction. Also, if a discussion is to be held to get rid of infoboxes for classical composers then this should be done on a higher level for all composers and not for each composer separately. Janderk 08:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Infoboxes like this just don't tell you anything useful, are potentially misleading, and don't add anything because all the information is invariably repeated elsewhere. Composers need a better approach than this. Moreschi Talk 15:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how to fix it, but the first sentence is terrible. The article shouldn't start with [[Polish language|Polish name]] (unless some consensus agreed so), and the IPA and languages are confusing and cluttered. ALTON .ıl 02:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I like the new image that Claus Ableiter added to the lead section. I'm not sure if there is Wikipedia policy concerning the lead image in a biographical article, but I would prefer this painting of Chopin over the photograph of him as the lead image. We can move the photograph to a lower section of the article. If, however, Wikipedia or WPBiography stress use of a photo for the lead, then keep the photo there and move the painting to the Paris section. - cgilbert( talk| contribs) 18:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I see that Nihil novi has moved the image to the paris section as one of my options given above suggested. Novi also reverted an edit I had made to improve the layout at the top of the page. I had moved the photo to the right, enlarged it to give an easier view, and moved the table of contents to its default location by removing the tocright template. This is the normal layout for biographical articles and do not see a reason that the case should be different here. - cgilbert( talk| contribs) 22:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
It would be very helpful if someone could identify the address of the building (illustrated in the article) in which Chopin lived till 1830, when he left Warsaw forever; and the address of the building from which Russian soldiers dropped Chopin's piano in 1863. (I gather these were two different buildings.) Nihil novi 23:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is relatively long compared to Beethoven, and concentrates much on his death and music. I suggest a split into Chopin's Death and Chopin's Music. I remember several books written about his funeral alone; supposedly it's a very significant event. I'm not sure what the protocol is on something like this but because both his life and his music are very well documented and detailed, I suggest both have their own article. ALTON .ıl 22:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and put Frédéric Chopin Piano Competitions up at AfD. Please comment here. ALTON .ıl 04:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
If someone has access to photos of Chopin's death mask and of the casts of his hands, they might make a valuable addition to the article's iconography. For no ghoulish reason, but because there is not a wealth of objective representations of him, in life or in death. Nihil novi 03:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
That would be interesting because I have always learned in my music history course, that he had very small but flexible hands that gave the impression that they were long. Krozo 20:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Someone could write about his first lessons, he was taught how to play the piano by his mother. In the article Chopin is born and at once he's a talented pianist... 83.10.191.25 13:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I suggest getting rid of the low-quality pics (if any exist) and moving some of the images to a section of their own, like a gallery or something, because there's quite a lot of them - or then just remove the unnecessary ones.-- Wormsie 20:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
To explain myself further: an article with lots of tiny images looks confusing and, uuh, in need of a cleanup. Making the images smaller doesn't make the article look better or justify adding even more small images. I got so distressed with the images that I started removing the ones that nobody will hopefully miss. But if somebody does miss them, I'd support adding a Gallery-section for most images.-- Wormsie 20:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an error in the article. Chopin is buried next to Cherubini, not Bellini, in Pere Lachaise Cemetery.
The prelude No. 15 in D-flat major ("Raindrop") (1838-1839) is featured in the James Bond Movie "Moonraker" as Bond enter a room, sir Hugo Drax plays it.
This is bothering me: "His Préludes (Op. 28) and Études (Opp. 10 and 25) rapidly became standard works, and inspired both Liszt's Transcendental Études and Schumann's Symphonic Études." Liszt composed and published the first version of those etudes in 1826. Chopin began composing his etudes in 1829. So this statement must be incorrect. Should it be removed? Alex 20:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It's true that Liszt composed his etudes in 1826. They however are of mediocre quality. They were published under the name "Etude en douze exercices" S136. Each etude lasts for 1 to 2 minutes. They were like previous composers' piano exercises and no one paid attention to them during that time. Under Chopin's influence, Liszt expanded his etudes to a greater scale and quality so that they could stand independently as a masterpiece like Chopin's etudes. He published them under the name "Douze grandes etudes" S137 in 1837. These etudes were unnecessarily extremely difficult but lacked the poetic element found in Chopin's. Finally, Liszt revised his etudes the last time to Chopin's standard and published them under the name "DOUZE ETUDES D'EXECUTION TRANSCENDANTE" S139 in 1852.
Schumann composed his symphonic etudes in 1834 and revised in 1852. His etudes were not really etudes, but variations. They were based on a theme by Baron von Fricken.
We can be pretty sure that Chopin was the first composer that raised the etudes to the highest quality. Chopin's etudes were the best among all etudes ever composed. Tranluonganh 19:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that Chopin based the sequence of his Preludes on Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier. The keys of Chopin's preludes are in the order C, A minor, G, E minor, D, B minor, etc. (i.e., the major keys according the cycle of fifths, with each major key followed by its relative minor), while Bach's are in the order C, C minor, Db, C# minor, D, D minor, etc. (i.e., the major keys ascending chromatically, with each major key followed by its parallel minor). John Link 01:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I just gave all thumbnails except the default top one the default size again. Which means I removed all size information. There was a mixture of many sizes. The main reason for doing so is not to override the preferences of any visitor. Not everyone has the same screen resolution. Also, having a lot of different sizes makes the page look messy. I propose to keep the thumbnails at the standard size unless there is a compelling reason not to do so. Janderk 11:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I decided to lookup what wikipedia says about this issue. The Extended Image syntax page states:
“ | From MediaWiki 1.5 the default thumbnail width can be set in the preferences, so it is recommended not to specify "px", in order to respect the users' preferences (unless, for a special reason, a specific size is required regardless of preferences, or a size is specified outside the range of widths 120–300px that can be set in the preferences). | ” |
Looks like wikipedia also says we should stick to the default. Janderk 11:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
There are entirely too many images on this article. So much so that they crowd out the text and each other. The article does not need a picture of every painting of Chopin, nor does it need a picture of every house he lived in, even if they're all free use. I think keep the photograph, the Delacroix painting, the hand cast, the birthplace and maybe one more. And why the hell does George Sand get a picture here? This isn't even her article and it doesn't illustrate anything vital. Axem Titanium 21:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed this from the article.
All the information above is available on the Eternal Sonata article, where I think it belongs: it's vital information about the game, but here it is unreferenced, and tells us precisely nothing about Chopin's life, his death, or his music. The identity of the composer used might as well have been arbitrary as far as I can tell, insofar as it was apparently the director's personal choice. I think this paragraph's removal improves the article. I'd welcome other comments, and I would be happy to see the paragraph reinstated if consensus dictates. -- RobertG ♬ talk 19:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
This defintely belongs in an "In popular culture" section and should be left as a simple sentence reference. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.63.103.226 (
talk) 04:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I can read, thank you. Chopin's article should reflect not only his "life, death, and music", but also how he is depicted in today's world, whether by classical music fans or those not quite as immersed in the world. As such, this tidbit belongs in a "IN POPULAR CULTURE" section as a small and simple sentence. To do so creates a more complete article that not only recounts history, but connects it to the present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.103.226 ( talk) 05:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. A "Popular Culture" section is a widely accepted section among Wikipedia articles and two people's absolute refusal to accept it in this article is nothing more than a elitist minority view apparently promoted by said two people. You claim that the section isn't information about Chopin - which may have been true in previous editions of the edit, but the last revision was a simple sentence explaining that Chopin is referenced in a popular culture title fulfills the goals of the section completely - no more, no less.
See the following biographic pages:
Mozart - Mozart in fiction
Beethoven - Cinematic Depictions
Cultural depictions of Rasputin - A Rasputin in Culture section so large it required its own page.
Charles Dickens - Dickens as a character in fiction
Just to name a few. Stop deleting this relevant section on Chopin. The sentence offers zero information about the game - only that Chopin is referenced, and indeed, featured in it. It doesn't matter what your opinion is on the title itself, the media it's on, or the fanciful depiction of Chopin. The game references Chopin. It is a part of our culture.
PS: Again, this is not "trivia." Trivia would be what Chopin's favorite color is (unless that somehow influenced his work.) A reference in popular culture is exactly what it says. Although you may think it trivial, the in culture section is not generally considered trivial. I will try and figure out how to add a reference for you. And so you know, the game designers did not randomly choose a composer. It contains plot points that are completely specific to Chopin and without them, would change the story entirely. Honorkell 03:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The game is under a month old so hasn't had much of a chance to "significantly and notably" affect attitudes to Chopin. However, this is not the only requirement to be considered non-trivial. The very fact that the game has the potential to turn on a new and perhaps usually apathetic segment of people to Chopin in the first place, and the game's being referred to as "edu-tainment" due to its intermissions of Chopin's biographical information should be sufficient; at least for now. Honorkell 12:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I see you're point - simply referencing Chopin I suppose wouldn't merit inclusion into this article. But - the game does a lot more than reference him - he is arguably the most important character. Also - the game revolves around his life and experiences. It also educates as to his biography. I guess it just boils down to "is this game important to the modern understanding of Chopin?" This is where it gets hazy. I argue yes, because it artisticly portrays Chopin and his life in a medium that can attract a brand new segment of the general population to Chopin's work, educates said segment on his biography, etc I won't repost what I already wrote. I don't think the game will change the perceptions of most people who already know about Chopin (although even that is arguable.) But I do think it will change the perceptions (or at least create a perception where the was none) in the case of people who know nothing about Chopin. To this group, the game is important with regards to Chopin; the former group - not much at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.230.65.52 ( talk) 12:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Oye.... wrong, wrong, wrong. In attempting to argue your points, you assume I abandoned my original ones? Of course not - they still stand. A cultural reference, no matter how slight, is still a culture reference. If you want to keep this article rather tight and narrow, then you wouldn't include simple references in culture into this article; even though there is precedent for exactly that throughout wikipedia. Thus, you need to look at Eternal Sonata's inclusion based on more than just simple reference. The game meets these requirements also based on what I've said above. Either way you slice it, the reference belongs in this article. Honorkell 17:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
According to several biographies of Chopin (i.e. Niecks, Karasowski) the composer had brown (or dark-brown) eyes. I have, however, read that Chopin's passport says his eyes were grey-blue. I haven't seen a text copy of Chopin's passport. Does anyone know where this could be found? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.58.160 ( talk) 01:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Dexter was previously deleted as irrelevant, and is now back.
Eternal Sonata keeps returning like a bad penny.
Ingmar Bergman's film, Autumn Sonata, was deleted.
Would we not do better, deleting the entire section? We could probably find thousands of examples of Chopin being referenced "in popular culture." Nihil novi ( talk) 02:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
in the popular culture refrence of this page, shouldn't it be noted that his Raindrops Prelude piece was used in the 2nd Halo 3 "Believe" ad?
very popular culture, seeing how well the game has sold this year.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.39.112.105 ( talk) 18:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
bah nevermind found out what incidental music is lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.39.112.105 ( talk) 18:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the article:
It is unreferenced. I may check it up when I get the chance - or perhaps someone else knows a reference for it? Also it was rather imprecise and ungrammatical as it stood, as well as being (in my view) in the wrong place: it is not specifically relevant to the time on Mallorca. It probably deserves expanding into its own paragraph if it can be substantiated. -- RobertG ♬ talk 09:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
THIS article i s riddled with wieasel words. Please fix now. Smith Jones ( talk) 12:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
You may:
The whole articles is filled with these staements. I have no doubt that all of them are true about Chopin but these thye still need sources or else it looks like a fanpage or an advertisement instead of an encyclopedia. i've already started researching some of these but i uld appreciate the help of something who was had been wrecking on here for quite some time since my chopin research book collection is somewhat limited . Smith Jones ( talk) 13:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I wonder which standards do apply for attributing a nationality, in general, and in this case.
Marie Curie is a somewhat related Polish-French case. Or exclusively Russian, according to standards applied by some to certain figures. -- Matthead Discuß 04:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
In your list of criteria, you omitted perhaps only one: how the individual saw himself. The Polish Wikipedia article quotes George Sand as saying that Fryderyk Chopin "was even more Polish than Poland herself." The article also references a French music critic as saying: "His nation's heart beat in his chest. We know of no other musician who was more of a patriot than he. He is a Pole much more so than any Frenchman was French, any Italian—Italian, or any German—German. He is a Pole, nothing other than a Pole, and from this ravaged, tormented Polish country there emerges, like its immortal soul, its music." Nihil novi ( talk) 05:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Clarification: the purpose of this section is to find out how nationality is determined. Do standards apply, or is each case determined individually? -- Matthead Discuß 05:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are the facts, none of which are contested:
Now why shouldn't he be described by "Polish-French" instead of just "Polish"? Mrglass123 ( talk) 02:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)Mrglass123
I have no opinion on whether Chopin should be described in the lead as Polish or Polish-French, but I feel strongly that collaboration and consensus is the way forward. I have requested that Mrglass123 refrain from edit warring and engage with the discussion here. Please let me know if this does not happen. -- RobertG ♬ talk 11:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Musical identity is surely relevant here. Handel, at least in part, is regarded as a German composer because his music has a singularly Teutonic character. Chopin's music is a similar case. It's worth noting that specialist musical sources refer to him as Polish, not Polish-French. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 13:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Ack! Please, no more of this debate! I've kept this on my watchlist for so long, and about every second someone has posted a counter to someone else's argument. Instead of uselessly throwing our weight around trying to convince or drown out the other, let's collect a set of sources and list them here. That way, we'll get a good idea of what the experts agree is right. -- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 06:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I hope that this will help us reach a factual, not abstract agreement. Thanks-- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 20:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
How Chopin acquired a French passport:
“[After Chopin first arrived in Paris in 1831:] Because Chopin’s Russian passport restriction allowed him to remain in Paris only ‘in passage’ to London, Paer wrote the French authorities requesting a more permanent status for 'this young man…who is a Pole deported from Warsaw as a result of the revolution [and] who was in Vienna where the press and the society elite received him with great consideration. Chopin is an educated man’.
“Chopin of course had not been deported and was not a political refugee, but the French granted him permission to stay in Paris indefinitely ‘to be able to perfect his art’. Four years later, Fryderyk became a French citizen and a French passport was issued to him on August 1, 1835. He is not known to have discussed his decision to change citizenship with anyone, not even his father. It is unclear whether he did it to avoid renewing his Russian passport at the Russian embassy for patriotic reasons or simply as a matter of general convenience”. (Tad Szulc “Chopin in Paris” p.69 )
Question: if Chopin was already French, why would he have to apply for French citizenship to get a passport? -- Folantin ( talk) 08:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with MusicalConnoisseur here, that Chopin should not be mentioned as Polish-French in the lead. I believe that the details of his parentage, passport, citizenship can be mentioned in the appropriately more detailed later portions of the article, -- or in a footnote. Leaving him as a "Polish" composer is in conformance with the majority of scholarly opinion. And please do not change the lead back to "Polish-French" until achieving consensus on this page: much appreciated. Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 04:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
1. Chopin was born in Poland to a Polish mother and a polonised French father who came to Poland in 1787 at the age of 16, and spoke to his son in Polish.
2. Chopin was born and spent most of his life (20 years) in Poland - 20 years of his childhood and youth - the time which shaped his personality and national identity - here he received education, here he became influenced by the Polish folk music
3. Chopin was brought up in a house of old Polish aristocrats (counts Skarbek) with Polish traditions and customs, in the Polish countryside (Chopin's father was looking after the children of count Kacper Skarbek).
4. Chopin spoke perfect Polish - a language he used at home, but did not speak perfect French - a language which he had to learn.
5. Chopin always associated himself with the Polish emigrants in France. Also, in his music, he showed his strong affection for his home-country - Poland. Just like on 29 XI 1830 - when the Polish
November Uprising started and, upon hearing the news, Chopin himself said "I curse the moment when I left the country". Or on 8 X 1831, when deeply moved by the failure of the uprising, he wrote the very famous "Revolutionary" etude
Étude Op. 10, No. 12 (Chopin).
... these are the FACTS... so whence that idiotic, irrelevant mumbo-jumbo about USA and Arnold Schwarzenegger???
Obviously an ignorant - like you - does not know most of the facts above, not to mention the history behind some of Chopins most patriotic pieces. Now that, in spite of all these FACTS, you call him a "Polish-born French" you get the best proof for your bias and highly subjective attitude. Well - you certainly are not the first one to have some sort of agenda behind such opinions. And why do you politicise the issue so much? What was the thing with these "nationalists"??? It's a double-edged sword - you could be a nationalist with some agenda as well. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.106.131.140 (
talk •
contribs)
I can add that Chopin's other greatest piece - Fantaisie-Impromptu in C-sharp minor, Opus 66 was dedicated to his friend Julian Fontana - a Polish pianist and composer best remembered as a close friend and musical executor of Frédéric Chopin. Fontana left Warsaw in 1831, after the November Uprising and settled in Hamburg, before becoming a pianist and teacher in Paris in 1832. He took up a wandering life. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.106.128.119 (
talk) 22:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious as to the WP:Weasel, sometimes, calling him "Szopen" for the Polish version of his name. Is this for pronunciation sake? Did he use it himself? Or is this to help the illiterate? I recall a lot of flak concerning concerning the Lithuanization and Germanization of "Polish" surnames. Dr. Dan ( talk) 17:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
If this article is to be considered for GA in the future, the following issues should be addressed:
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[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, I've just about had it with these pesky vandals! Do you guys think we should protect this article now? The same has been done for Debussy for a similar case of the WP:VAND's, so should we do so here? -- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 20:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to show a proposed revision of the whole section "Death" in a sandbox for any comments, before uploading it for real (consistent with the recent updating of Jenny Lind's "Early life and career"). Where and how to I do that?
It starts:
FINAL TWO YEARS
It could be considered that Chopin ended his days in style, even if his deteriorating health had brought his musical creativity and excellence to a halt. – In February 1848 Chopin gave his last concert in Paris. To escape the hard times caused by the French revolution, he travelled in April like many other artists to London [1] ... Jean de Beaumont ( talk) 19:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The is a need to clarify if not revise the subtitle of the undated artwork in the Paris section: "Chopin plays at fancy-dress ball in Hôtel Lambert. Standing in left foreground: Prince Adam Jerzy Czartoryski. Painting by Teofil Kwiatkowski". It is inconsistent with the subtitle and text in the French-language Wiki article and the Kwiatkowski article (English and Polish). The "fancy-dress", "Hôtel Lambert" and "Czartoryski" seem to be unsubstantiated speculation not indicated by the artist or the National Museum in Poznan. The museum only says (the last image): "Teofil Kwiatkowski, Polonez Chopina /ok. 1849-1860/". Various sources say it is a 'watercolour and gouache on paper'. - Is the source(s) known for the current subtitle? I suggest at some point to add images of other well-known Chopin artworks (e.g. Parc Monceau, Félix Barrias). - Incidentally, how is in general updated information in English transferred to the same Wiki article in other languages? Jean de Beaumont ( talk) 08:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
This section, as it now stands, passes over some notable events, such as Chopin's stay in Scotland in the late summer of 1848, during which his admirer Jane Stirling proposed marriage to Chopin, and his visit to Edinburgh in late October, when he wrote his will.
This section now contains a fair amount of rather inchoate circumstantial matter which is apparently meant to suggest that Jenny Lind wished to marry Chopin, and that he entertained the idea. At the very least, the section requires editing for clarity, and the presentation of better evidence than isolated snippets from letters, diaries, books and the like. Nihil novi ( talk) 01:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Chopin wrote, of his late-October 1848 Edinburgh last will and testament, to his friend Wojciech Grzymała. Jachimecki does not specify which of his many sources he found this in. Nihil novi ( talk) 18:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
(no indent) I have also replied on my talk page but I guess I could also elaborate here. Now going through the page's history, no malicious edit can be found...as to who or what emptied your sandbox is still an enigma. Anyhow, it's now back to normal. =)-- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 04:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I know this is very minor but it seems that he left for Paris at 21, not 20. (according to Philips Classics Compact Companions titled "Chopin" by Christopher Headington. It was published by Simon & Schuster". ISBN 10951750) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.110.130 ( talk) 10:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Left Poland (Nov 2,1830)->Kalisz(?)->Breslau and Dresden(?)->Prague(?)->Vienna(Nov 23,1830-Jul20,1831)->Salzburg(?)->Munich(stayed for about a month)-> Stuttgart(?)-(trip that took about 2 weeks)->France,probably Paris(Mid of September,1831) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.111.218.122 ( talk) 11:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the statement The only known photograph of Frédéric Chopin... is wrong. I know of another (see davgri8.freehostia.com/uploads/ch11.jpg) although admittedly I can't remember where I can across it. Thoughts? DehGriff 23:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I first heard of Chopin while I was reading James Hilton's Lost Horizon. I also just read The Awakening by Kate Chopin. Chopin's piano music plays an (slightly) important role in both of these books. Could someone please add a section that lists books where he is mentioned? Thanks, Greenblade99 02:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
It would be great if there could be a section listing the students of Chopin, perhaps with thumbnail biographies (when available). --Kosboot 17:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
There aren't many of them, and few (if any) achieved much fame. The best of them was reputed to be Karl Filtsch, who died young. Kullak and Mikuli achieved some fame, mainly as editors of the music of Chopin. Alkan may have been a pupil (or just a friend) of his.
Fryderyk Chopin's student Carl Filtsch (1830-1845): see www.freewebs.com/fjgajewski/
Isn't "widely regarded.." as "famous" redundant? Fame encompasses wide regards. How about "famously regarded" - ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.188.25 ( talk)
I deleted some of the citation needed and original research markings. It was very cluttered, but maybe that section oughta be removed altogether, unless we can get some facts to back it up. ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by O Violinista ( talk • contribs) 19:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
To clarify before the discussion is taken seriously: this was an April Fool's joke done by a classical music magazine... see the last comment for details.
Here is a link to the recording: http://media.putfile.com/Chopin-playing-the-minute-waltz-1840 In this article there was no mention of the fact that the first intentional audio recording ever made was that of Frédéric Chopin playing the minute waltz. Isn't anyone aware of this? It was in 1840 and the recording was made at the home of George Sand using a glass cylinder covered with the soot from a candle which was scratched by a pin connected to a diaphragm. The cylinder was made to rotate by the mechanism of a clock and the device was only able to record one minutes worth. The recording is remarkable and due to the light action of the piano, much lighter than todays pianos, Chopin was able to play extremely fluently and at the end of the piece the sound of a man laughing can be heard, whether it be Chopin himself or the inventor of the device or someone else isn't known. The man who invented the device was able to record the performance but was unable to play the recording once made and therefore was unable to sell the idea. But knowing what he had done was significant he documented the event and preserved it. Many years later a box with the device and documentation was discovered and with modern techniques and the use of a computer, a laser, and a sinclavier, the historic recording was realized and can be heard. It has lots of hiss which one would expect and some popping sounds but aside from that it is utterly astounding. The piano has a good tone and the playing is magnificent. I have searched the web for information on this but have come up with nothing. My information comes from a magazine which is no longer in publication called 'Classic CD' magazine which had an article, the gist of which I have just reported, and a CD of the recording (XOHA CDO10491). Isn't it amazing to discover that the first intentional audio recording ever made was not someone saying "Testing - testing 1,2,3" but this wonderful historic performance of Chopin? (scottlesbme@yahoo.com) Scottlesbme 22:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, can't give a cite, but soon after that magazine had come out, I listened to a show on KPFK radio in Los Angeles, where they discussed this. Sorry, but it's a hoax. Bunthorne 15:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a link to the recording in question: http://media.putfile.com/Chopin-playing-the-minute-waltz-1840 I didn't hear the radio show on this but the article and the recording I found compelling. Although there wasn't a photo of the apparatus, the cylinder or the documentation. Furthermore, one would think someone else would have spoken of this although I've seen great things ignored in the past in fact regularly so it's hard to say what is the truth in this matter but I wouldn't accept KPFK in LA as the final word on anything. All I can assure with any certainty is is that it isn't me playing. If it isn't Chopin he or she certainly could play. (scottlesbme@yahoo.com)
Just want to make sure I didn't go out on an unsupported limb here. Chopin seems to be one of those composers who tends to be claimed as their own by various nationalist groups. I suggest that we keep his nationality out of the first sentence, and leave the full description of his national backgrounds in the intro, allowing the reader to decide for themself whether being born in Poland makes him Polish, or adopting France makes him French, or whatever else they choose to extrapolate from the information given. Mak (talk) 22:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
"Chopin wrote almost exclusively for the piano, and published little music that did not involve it." (Third paragraph.)
"All of Chopin's works involve the piano, whether solo or accompanied." (Under the heading 'Works'.)
This is a contradiction - the first statement implies that he wrote some work without piano; the second states that he did not. I am 99% sure that the second statement is correct but cannot be 100% certain, therefore cannot edit it. But whichever is correct, it is still a contradiction.
Musical lottie 01:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
There is not a single extant original piece by Chopin that did not involve the piano in some way. However, among his lost works are:
In c.1831, he arranged the aria Casta Diva from Bellini's Norma for piano accordion (!) (KK VIIa/1). I know of no recording of this.
I think it is safe to say all of his published music involved the piano. (The KK and B numbers refer to the catalogue numbers of these works in the lists compiled and published by K Kopylanska and MJE Brown respectively). JackofOz 03:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
In the formative years section, it makes mention of Chopin's lessons under Wilhelm Würfel. Why exactly were they irregular (it might be useful to add it)?. Justinmeister 16:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Asteroid, airport, pop-singer's album. The latter seems out of place here, just as Gazebo's "I like Chopin" hit would be. If there is no particular controversy, it'll be deleted. -- Beaumont (@) 19:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I know this is only one article with an infobox on a composer, but it's the first one I noticed, so…
Why do we put the flag (in this case ) next to where the person was born, but not where that person died (in this case )? — The still-Esperanzan $PЯINGrαgђ Always loyal! 20:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
How about make a "Background Information" box on the upper-right corner as what other articles have such as Liszt, Bach, Mozart, etc.? --- Sautiller 07:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
In 1835 Chopin visited his family in Karlsbad, whence he accompanied his parents to Děčín where they lived, and then to Warsaw. This suggests that he did indeed return to Poland after previously having decided not to, after hearing of the 1830 uprising. I've never heard or read anywhere that he ever went back. Is there a citation for this visit to Warsaw? JackofOz 23:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
In the introduction, there is the claim that "Chopin was the first Western Classical composer to imbue Slavic elements into his music". While I would agree that his output made Slavic elements broadly prominent and popular, I think it is not true to state that he was the first. For instance, I am pretty sure that there is at least one orchestral piece by Telemann which explicitly includes style elements from Polish folk dances, and I seem to recall that J.S.Bach's 1st orchestral suite also includes a Polonaise. Later examples include Beethovens Polonaise in C op.89 and the Polonaise for Military Band WoO 21. -- TomR 02:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Frédéric Chopin | |
---|---|
Background information | |
Genres | Classical, Romantic |
Occupation(s) | Composer, Pianist |
Instrument(s) | Piano |
Hi, do you guys think is ok the infobox I've just added?-- Emperor Walter Humala · ( talk? · help! ) 21:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the only person commenting on not wanting an infobox above was Mak, so let's put it up to a vote on whether the page should have an infobox or not. Vote support to have an infobox and against to not have an infobox. I've put an example of what the infobox might look like on the right. - cgilbert( talk| contribs) 05:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
IMHO a vote is out of place here. Personally, I don't care much if the Chopin article is with or without an infobox. I just think that the Chopin article should stick to the guidelines. All classical composers like Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, use the Musical Artist infobox as recommended by the Musicians Project. I see no reason why the Chopin article should follow a different direction. Also, if a discussion is to be held to get rid of infoboxes for classical composers then this should be done on a higher level for all composers and not for each composer separately. Janderk 08:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Infoboxes like this just don't tell you anything useful, are potentially misleading, and don't add anything because all the information is invariably repeated elsewhere. Composers need a better approach than this. Moreschi Talk 15:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know how to fix it, but the first sentence is terrible. The article shouldn't start with [[Polish language|Polish name]] (unless some consensus agreed so), and the IPA and languages are confusing and cluttered. ALTON .ıl 02:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I like the new image that Claus Ableiter added to the lead section. I'm not sure if there is Wikipedia policy concerning the lead image in a biographical article, but I would prefer this painting of Chopin over the photograph of him as the lead image. We can move the photograph to a lower section of the article. If, however, Wikipedia or WPBiography stress use of a photo for the lead, then keep the photo there and move the painting to the Paris section. - cgilbert( talk| contribs) 18:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I see that Nihil novi has moved the image to the paris section as one of my options given above suggested. Novi also reverted an edit I had made to improve the layout at the top of the page. I had moved the photo to the right, enlarged it to give an easier view, and moved the table of contents to its default location by removing the tocright template. This is the normal layout for biographical articles and do not see a reason that the case should be different here. - cgilbert( talk| contribs) 22:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
It would be very helpful if someone could identify the address of the building (illustrated in the article) in which Chopin lived till 1830, when he left Warsaw forever; and the address of the building from which Russian soldiers dropped Chopin's piano in 1863. (I gather these were two different buildings.) Nihil novi 23:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is relatively long compared to Beethoven, and concentrates much on his death and music. I suggest a split into Chopin's Death and Chopin's Music. I remember several books written about his funeral alone; supposedly it's a very significant event. I'm not sure what the protocol is on something like this but because both his life and his music are very well documented and detailed, I suggest both have their own article. ALTON .ıl 22:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I went ahead and put Frédéric Chopin Piano Competitions up at AfD. Please comment here. ALTON .ıl 04:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
If someone has access to photos of Chopin's death mask and of the casts of his hands, they might make a valuable addition to the article's iconography. For no ghoulish reason, but because there is not a wealth of objective representations of him, in life or in death. Nihil novi 03:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
That would be interesting because I have always learned in my music history course, that he had very small but flexible hands that gave the impression that they were long. Krozo 20:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Someone could write about his first lessons, he was taught how to play the piano by his mother. In the article Chopin is born and at once he's a talented pianist... 83.10.191.25 13:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I suggest getting rid of the low-quality pics (if any exist) and moving some of the images to a section of their own, like a gallery or something, because there's quite a lot of them - or then just remove the unnecessary ones.-- Wormsie 20:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
To explain myself further: an article with lots of tiny images looks confusing and, uuh, in need of a cleanup. Making the images smaller doesn't make the article look better or justify adding even more small images. I got so distressed with the images that I started removing the ones that nobody will hopefully miss. But if somebody does miss them, I'd support adding a Gallery-section for most images.-- Wormsie 20:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
There is an error in the article. Chopin is buried next to Cherubini, not Bellini, in Pere Lachaise Cemetery.
The prelude No. 15 in D-flat major ("Raindrop") (1838-1839) is featured in the James Bond Movie "Moonraker" as Bond enter a room, sir Hugo Drax plays it.
This is bothering me: "His Préludes (Op. 28) and Études (Opp. 10 and 25) rapidly became standard works, and inspired both Liszt's Transcendental Études and Schumann's Symphonic Études." Liszt composed and published the first version of those etudes in 1826. Chopin began composing his etudes in 1829. So this statement must be incorrect. Should it be removed? Alex 20:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It's true that Liszt composed his etudes in 1826. They however are of mediocre quality. They were published under the name "Etude en douze exercices" S136. Each etude lasts for 1 to 2 minutes. They were like previous composers' piano exercises and no one paid attention to them during that time. Under Chopin's influence, Liszt expanded his etudes to a greater scale and quality so that they could stand independently as a masterpiece like Chopin's etudes. He published them under the name "Douze grandes etudes" S137 in 1837. These etudes were unnecessarily extremely difficult but lacked the poetic element found in Chopin's. Finally, Liszt revised his etudes the last time to Chopin's standard and published them under the name "DOUZE ETUDES D'EXECUTION TRANSCENDANTE" S139 in 1852.
Schumann composed his symphonic etudes in 1834 and revised in 1852. His etudes were not really etudes, but variations. They were based on a theme by Baron von Fricken.
We can be pretty sure that Chopin was the first composer that raised the etudes to the highest quality. Chopin's etudes were the best among all etudes ever composed. Tranluonganh 19:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the statement that Chopin based the sequence of his Preludes on Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier. The keys of Chopin's preludes are in the order C, A minor, G, E minor, D, B minor, etc. (i.e., the major keys according the cycle of fifths, with each major key followed by its relative minor), while Bach's are in the order C, C minor, Db, C# minor, D, D minor, etc. (i.e., the major keys ascending chromatically, with each major key followed by its parallel minor). John Link 01:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I just gave all thumbnails except the default top one the default size again. Which means I removed all size information. There was a mixture of many sizes. The main reason for doing so is not to override the preferences of any visitor. Not everyone has the same screen resolution. Also, having a lot of different sizes makes the page look messy. I propose to keep the thumbnails at the standard size unless there is a compelling reason not to do so. Janderk 11:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I decided to lookup what wikipedia says about this issue. The Extended Image syntax page states:
“ | From MediaWiki 1.5 the default thumbnail width can be set in the preferences, so it is recommended not to specify "px", in order to respect the users' preferences (unless, for a special reason, a specific size is required regardless of preferences, or a size is specified outside the range of widths 120–300px that can be set in the preferences). | ” |
Looks like wikipedia also says we should stick to the default. Janderk 11:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
There are entirely too many images on this article. So much so that they crowd out the text and each other. The article does not need a picture of every painting of Chopin, nor does it need a picture of every house he lived in, even if they're all free use. I think keep the photograph, the Delacroix painting, the hand cast, the birthplace and maybe one more. And why the hell does George Sand get a picture here? This isn't even her article and it doesn't illustrate anything vital. Axem Titanium 21:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed this from the article.
All the information above is available on the Eternal Sonata article, where I think it belongs: it's vital information about the game, but here it is unreferenced, and tells us precisely nothing about Chopin's life, his death, or his music. The identity of the composer used might as well have been arbitrary as far as I can tell, insofar as it was apparently the director's personal choice. I think this paragraph's removal improves the article. I'd welcome other comments, and I would be happy to see the paragraph reinstated if consensus dictates. -- RobertG ♬ talk 19:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
This defintely belongs in an "In popular culture" section and should be left as a simple sentence reference. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.63.103.226 (
talk) 04:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I can read, thank you. Chopin's article should reflect not only his "life, death, and music", but also how he is depicted in today's world, whether by classical music fans or those not quite as immersed in the world. As such, this tidbit belongs in a "IN POPULAR CULTURE" section as a small and simple sentence. To do so creates a more complete article that not only recounts history, but connects it to the present. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.103.226 ( talk) 05:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Wrong. A "Popular Culture" section is a widely accepted section among Wikipedia articles and two people's absolute refusal to accept it in this article is nothing more than a elitist minority view apparently promoted by said two people. You claim that the section isn't information about Chopin - which may have been true in previous editions of the edit, but the last revision was a simple sentence explaining that Chopin is referenced in a popular culture title fulfills the goals of the section completely - no more, no less.
See the following biographic pages:
Mozart - Mozart in fiction
Beethoven - Cinematic Depictions
Cultural depictions of Rasputin - A Rasputin in Culture section so large it required its own page.
Charles Dickens - Dickens as a character in fiction
Just to name a few. Stop deleting this relevant section on Chopin. The sentence offers zero information about the game - only that Chopin is referenced, and indeed, featured in it. It doesn't matter what your opinion is on the title itself, the media it's on, or the fanciful depiction of Chopin. The game references Chopin. It is a part of our culture.
PS: Again, this is not "trivia." Trivia would be what Chopin's favorite color is (unless that somehow influenced his work.) A reference in popular culture is exactly what it says. Although you may think it trivial, the in culture section is not generally considered trivial. I will try and figure out how to add a reference for you. And so you know, the game designers did not randomly choose a composer. It contains plot points that are completely specific to Chopin and without them, would change the story entirely. Honorkell 03:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The game is under a month old so hasn't had much of a chance to "significantly and notably" affect attitudes to Chopin. However, this is not the only requirement to be considered non-trivial. The very fact that the game has the potential to turn on a new and perhaps usually apathetic segment of people to Chopin in the first place, and the game's being referred to as "edu-tainment" due to its intermissions of Chopin's biographical information should be sufficient; at least for now. Honorkell 12:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I see you're point - simply referencing Chopin I suppose wouldn't merit inclusion into this article. But - the game does a lot more than reference him - he is arguably the most important character. Also - the game revolves around his life and experiences. It also educates as to his biography. I guess it just boils down to "is this game important to the modern understanding of Chopin?" This is where it gets hazy. I argue yes, because it artisticly portrays Chopin and his life in a medium that can attract a brand new segment of the general population to Chopin's work, educates said segment on his biography, etc I won't repost what I already wrote. I don't think the game will change the perceptions of most people who already know about Chopin (although even that is arguable.) But I do think it will change the perceptions (or at least create a perception where the was none) in the case of people who know nothing about Chopin. To this group, the game is important with regards to Chopin; the former group - not much at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.230.65.52 ( talk) 12:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Oye.... wrong, wrong, wrong. In attempting to argue your points, you assume I abandoned my original ones? Of course not - they still stand. A cultural reference, no matter how slight, is still a culture reference. If you want to keep this article rather tight and narrow, then you wouldn't include simple references in culture into this article; even though there is precedent for exactly that throughout wikipedia. Thus, you need to look at Eternal Sonata's inclusion based on more than just simple reference. The game meets these requirements also based on what I've said above. Either way you slice it, the reference belongs in this article. Honorkell 17:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
According to several biographies of Chopin (i.e. Niecks, Karasowski) the composer had brown (or dark-brown) eyes. I have, however, read that Chopin's passport says his eyes were grey-blue. I haven't seen a text copy of Chopin's passport. Does anyone know where this could be found? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.58.160 ( talk) 01:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Dexter was previously deleted as irrelevant, and is now back.
Eternal Sonata keeps returning like a bad penny.
Ingmar Bergman's film, Autumn Sonata, was deleted.
Would we not do better, deleting the entire section? We could probably find thousands of examples of Chopin being referenced "in popular culture." Nihil novi ( talk) 02:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
in the popular culture refrence of this page, shouldn't it be noted that his Raindrops Prelude piece was used in the 2nd Halo 3 "Believe" ad?
very popular culture, seeing how well the game has sold this year.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.39.112.105 ( talk) 18:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
bah nevermind found out what incidental music is lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.39.112.105 ( talk) 18:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the article:
It is unreferenced. I may check it up when I get the chance - or perhaps someone else knows a reference for it? Also it was rather imprecise and ungrammatical as it stood, as well as being (in my view) in the wrong place: it is not specifically relevant to the time on Mallorca. It probably deserves expanding into its own paragraph if it can be substantiated. -- RobertG ♬ talk 09:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
THIS article i s riddled with wieasel words. Please fix now. Smith Jones ( talk) 12:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
You may:
The whole articles is filled with these staements. I have no doubt that all of them are true about Chopin but these thye still need sources or else it looks like a fanpage or an advertisement instead of an encyclopedia. i've already started researching some of these but i uld appreciate the help of something who was had been wrecking on here for quite some time since my chopin research book collection is somewhat limited . Smith Jones ( talk) 13:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I wonder which standards do apply for attributing a nationality, in general, and in this case.
Marie Curie is a somewhat related Polish-French case. Or exclusively Russian, according to standards applied by some to certain figures. -- Matthead Discuß 04:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
In your list of criteria, you omitted perhaps only one: how the individual saw himself. The Polish Wikipedia article quotes George Sand as saying that Fryderyk Chopin "was even more Polish than Poland herself." The article also references a French music critic as saying: "His nation's heart beat in his chest. We know of no other musician who was more of a patriot than he. He is a Pole much more so than any Frenchman was French, any Italian—Italian, or any German—German. He is a Pole, nothing other than a Pole, and from this ravaged, tormented Polish country there emerges, like its immortal soul, its music." Nihil novi ( talk) 05:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Clarification: the purpose of this section is to find out how nationality is determined. Do standards apply, or is each case determined individually? -- Matthead Discuß 05:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are the facts, none of which are contested:
Now why shouldn't he be described by "Polish-French" instead of just "Polish"? Mrglass123 ( talk) 02:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)Mrglass123
I have no opinion on whether Chopin should be described in the lead as Polish or Polish-French, but I feel strongly that collaboration and consensus is the way forward. I have requested that Mrglass123 refrain from edit warring and engage with the discussion here. Please let me know if this does not happen. -- RobertG ♬ talk 11:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Musical identity is surely relevant here. Handel, at least in part, is regarded as a German composer because his music has a singularly Teutonic character. Chopin's music is a similar case. It's worth noting that specialist musical sources refer to him as Polish, not Polish-French. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 13:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Ack! Please, no more of this debate! I've kept this on my watchlist for so long, and about every second someone has posted a counter to someone else's argument. Instead of uselessly throwing our weight around trying to convince or drown out the other, let's collect a set of sources and list them here. That way, we'll get a good idea of what the experts agree is right. -- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 06:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I hope that this will help us reach a factual, not abstract agreement. Thanks-- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 20:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
How Chopin acquired a French passport:
“[After Chopin first arrived in Paris in 1831:] Because Chopin’s Russian passport restriction allowed him to remain in Paris only ‘in passage’ to London, Paer wrote the French authorities requesting a more permanent status for 'this young man…who is a Pole deported from Warsaw as a result of the revolution [and] who was in Vienna where the press and the society elite received him with great consideration. Chopin is an educated man’.
“Chopin of course had not been deported and was not a political refugee, but the French granted him permission to stay in Paris indefinitely ‘to be able to perfect his art’. Four years later, Fryderyk became a French citizen and a French passport was issued to him on August 1, 1835. He is not known to have discussed his decision to change citizenship with anyone, not even his father. It is unclear whether he did it to avoid renewing his Russian passport at the Russian embassy for patriotic reasons or simply as a matter of general convenience”. (Tad Szulc “Chopin in Paris” p.69 )
Question: if Chopin was already French, why would he have to apply for French citizenship to get a passport? -- Folantin ( talk) 08:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with MusicalConnoisseur here, that Chopin should not be mentioned as Polish-French in the lead. I believe that the details of his parentage, passport, citizenship can be mentioned in the appropriately more detailed later portions of the article, -- or in a footnote. Leaving him as a "Polish" composer is in conformance with the majority of scholarly opinion. And please do not change the lead back to "Polish-French" until achieving consensus on this page: much appreciated. Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 04:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
1. Chopin was born in Poland to a Polish mother and a polonised French father who came to Poland in 1787 at the age of 16, and spoke to his son in Polish.
2. Chopin was born and spent most of his life (20 years) in Poland - 20 years of his childhood and youth - the time which shaped his personality and national identity - here he received education, here he became influenced by the Polish folk music
3. Chopin was brought up in a house of old Polish aristocrats (counts Skarbek) with Polish traditions and customs, in the Polish countryside (Chopin's father was looking after the children of count Kacper Skarbek).
4. Chopin spoke perfect Polish - a language he used at home, but did not speak perfect French - a language which he had to learn.
5. Chopin always associated himself with the Polish emigrants in France. Also, in his music, he showed his strong affection for his home-country - Poland. Just like on 29 XI 1830 - when the Polish
November Uprising started and, upon hearing the news, Chopin himself said "I curse the moment when I left the country". Or on 8 X 1831, when deeply moved by the failure of the uprising, he wrote the very famous "Revolutionary" etude
Étude Op. 10, No. 12 (Chopin).
... these are the FACTS... so whence that idiotic, irrelevant mumbo-jumbo about USA and Arnold Schwarzenegger???
Obviously an ignorant - like you - does not know most of the facts above, not to mention the history behind some of Chopins most patriotic pieces. Now that, in spite of all these FACTS, you call him a "Polish-born French" you get the best proof for your bias and highly subjective attitude. Well - you certainly are not the first one to have some sort of agenda behind such opinions. And why do you politicise the issue so much? What was the thing with these "nationalists"??? It's a double-edged sword - you could be a nationalist with some agenda as well. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.106.131.140 (
talk •
contribs)
I can add that Chopin's other greatest piece - Fantaisie-Impromptu in C-sharp minor, Opus 66 was dedicated to his friend Julian Fontana - a Polish pianist and composer best remembered as a close friend and musical executor of Frédéric Chopin. Fontana left Warsaw in 1831, after the November Uprising and settled in Hamburg, before becoming a pianist and teacher in Paris in 1832. He took up a wandering life. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.106.128.119 (
talk) 22:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm curious as to the WP:Weasel, sometimes, calling him "Szopen" for the Polish version of his name. Is this for pronunciation sake? Did he use it himself? Or is this to help the illiterate? I recall a lot of flak concerning concerning the Lithuanization and Germanization of "Polish" surnames. Dr. Dan ( talk) 17:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
If this article is to be considered for GA in the future, the following issues should be addressed:
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
{{persondata|PLEASE SEE [[WP:PDATA]]!}}
along with the required parameters to the article - see
Wikipedia:Persondata for more information.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 06:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, I've just about had it with these pesky vandals! Do you guys think we should protect this article now? The same has been done for Debussy for a similar case of the WP:VAND's, so should we do so here? -- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 20:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to show a proposed revision of the whole section "Death" in a sandbox for any comments, before uploading it for real (consistent with the recent updating of Jenny Lind's "Early life and career"). Where and how to I do that?
It starts:
FINAL TWO YEARS
It could be considered that Chopin ended his days in style, even if his deteriorating health had brought his musical creativity and excellence to a halt. – In February 1848 Chopin gave his last concert in Paris. To escape the hard times caused by the French revolution, he travelled in April like many other artists to London [1] ... Jean de Beaumont ( talk) 19:58, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The is a need to clarify if not revise the subtitle of the undated artwork in the Paris section: "Chopin plays at fancy-dress ball in Hôtel Lambert. Standing in left foreground: Prince Adam Jerzy Czartoryski. Painting by Teofil Kwiatkowski". It is inconsistent with the subtitle and text in the French-language Wiki article and the Kwiatkowski article (English and Polish). The "fancy-dress", "Hôtel Lambert" and "Czartoryski" seem to be unsubstantiated speculation not indicated by the artist or the National Museum in Poznan. The museum only says (the last image): "Teofil Kwiatkowski, Polonez Chopina /ok. 1849-1860/". Various sources say it is a 'watercolour and gouache on paper'. - Is the source(s) known for the current subtitle? I suggest at some point to add images of other well-known Chopin artworks (e.g. Parc Monceau, Félix Barrias). - Incidentally, how is in general updated information in English transferred to the same Wiki article in other languages? Jean de Beaumont ( talk) 08:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
This section, as it now stands, passes over some notable events, such as Chopin's stay in Scotland in the late summer of 1848, during which his admirer Jane Stirling proposed marriage to Chopin, and his visit to Edinburgh in late October, when he wrote his will.
This section now contains a fair amount of rather inchoate circumstantial matter which is apparently meant to suggest that Jenny Lind wished to marry Chopin, and that he entertained the idea. At the very least, the section requires editing for clarity, and the presentation of better evidence than isolated snippets from letters, diaries, books and the like. Nihil novi ( talk) 01:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Chopin wrote, of his late-October 1848 Edinburgh last will and testament, to his friend Wojciech Grzymała. Jachimecki does not specify which of his many sources he found this in. Nihil novi ( talk) 18:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
(no indent) I have also replied on my talk page but I guess I could also elaborate here. Now going through the page's history, no malicious edit can be found...as to who or what emptied your sandbox is still an enigma. Anyhow, it's now back to normal. =)-- ~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 04:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)