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As I have often stated here, the sourcing on Trump's legendary wealth is based largely on that -- legend. It is quite as plausible that all of what appears to be his personal wealth is instead a lifestyle funded by his investors in order to sustain the branding of Trump as a successful businessperson. This story in today's Washington Post helps us reconsider the weight currently given to reports that, in part, make undue inferences concerning wealth that is not directly audited or disclosed [1] SPECIFICO talk 19:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
FWIW - yes - *entirely* agree - adding the word "allegedly" (and relevant CNN ref [1]) to the article text (and the other related refs [2] [3]) seems indicated to me as well - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan ( talk) 03:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
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Frankly, I would rather see the "net worth" thingy removed completely. Is it really a defining characteristic of the man, other than the fact his claims of his wealth outstrip reality? -- Scjessey ( talk) 13:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
"I also listened to the recording...it was not what was represented.". Could you please elaborate?- Mr X 🖋 21:49, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
"...Barron told me, he [Trump] should be called a billionaire."That's not mentioned in either of the recordings. I also question why he waited 36 years to
"unwind the elaborate farce Trump had enacted".I don't know about you, by my editorial judgment is waving a big 🚩. You also have to consider the methodology of the Forbes 400 list, and compare it to others in that same time frame, such as Bloomberg. Even with all that aside, what benefit does inclusion serve to our readers? It's certainly not the kind of scholarly sourced information that belongs in an encyclopedia; rather, it's one person's allegation after 36 years of not noticing anything unusual during the original phone calls. Whose competency does that speak to? Trump made the Forbes 400, so if that one phone call is all Greenberg and the Forbes editors needed for the listing, then maybe SPECIFICO is right about the Forbes' estimates being garbage. Atsme 📞 📧 01:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
I see that Atsme is back to removing any negative content by spuriously citing WP:UNDUE. Also, the edit summary is false - it's not an opinion piece (doesn't matter if you make that claim twice) but a piece by an investigative journalist. And calling it "poorly soured" is a joke, right?
So is Atsme just going to consistently veto any changes to the article per WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Discussion of news topics with a point of view, including narratives by individuals regarding their own experiences; i.e., opinion. The 2nd cited source is nothing more than circular reporting, links back to the WaPo piece. The 3rd cited source is another opinion piece they call analysis, and it too points back to the WaPo allegations, so there is no reliable investigative journalism going on in either the 2nd or 3rd cited sources. Jonathan Greenberg hasn't worked for Forbes since 2008 or thereabouts - he's a blog writer for HuffPo. I don't consider digging up prattle that dates back to the 1980s to be encyclopedic...especially when it's based on nothing more than one person's allegations. Atsme 📞 📧 23:04, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
"The sourcing is questionable at best" - what exactly is questionable here? That it's reported in three different sources? That it's in a "Analysis" section which is NOT "opinion"? This is utterly spurious. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 01:58, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
The specific veracity of Greenberg's allegations, though backed up by a recently discovered audio recording, will have to be sussed out, but it is notably still true that we don't know as much as you would think about the President's finances.But the sources aren't the only problem with that sentence as I've already explained. Atsme 📞 📧 04:02, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.Your arguments are becoming more unconvincing, not less. Atsme 📞 📧 13:18, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Something, like this, that is extremely prominent relative to other news about the subject, deserves at least a sentence in the article. -- Aquillion ( talk) 18:57, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Anyway, I think we're going in circles here. We have the main arguments (the question of WP:DUE, the question of whether we can include an opinion piece with an inline cite, arguments over the quality of the sources.) By a quick nose-count of the conversation, I'm seeing ~5-7 people supporting inclusion and at most maybe 2-3 opposing it - and that is being very generous to Atsme by including anyone who has voiced any direct objections at all at any point in the discussion; nobody, that I can see, has backed his specific objections explicitly, while several people have given detailed answers. Does anyone other than Atsme want to weigh in or add another argument, or to argue that this is not a rough consensus to include for now? We can refine it and try to improve it to meet objections; or, if someone other than Atsme really objects, we can go to an WP:RFC or something, but right now I'm seeing a rough consensus to include despite Atsme's vehement objections, and discussions seem to have devolved into like five or six people actively arguing with one person, with the arguments just repeating themselves over and over. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:02, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.While it may be a recent event in the news, it certainly wasn't an issue 36-years ago. It is nothing more than a one-sided allegation based on edited recordings by an ex-employee of Forbes who now writes a blog for HuffPo. It obviously didn't stop Trump from being included in Forbes or Bloomberg, so at this point in time, what difference does it make? I mean the irony is off the charts. Media is now attempting to discredit the wealth of a person they have, for decades, portrayed as an extremely wealthy person. It is not only disingenuous, it punches all kinds of holes in the argument for inclusion. Oh, look - RS say Trump is a multimillionaire...no, a billionaire...and now that he's president, despite their consistently wrong predictions during the campaign, they're saying nah, he's not that rich. *lol* And while we're on the subject of worth, what exactly is that allegation worth to the quality and credibility of our encyclopedia? Our readers will not miss that sentence if it isn't included, and even if it is included, our readers will either choose to believe it or not; some simply won't care. I doubt that a large number will actually get past the lede anyway. Keep in mind, Trump hasn't even completed 1½ of his term, so there's going to be more material added to the article, and it's highly likely that a lot of the unneccessary gossipy stuff will be removed. Atsme 📞 📧 14:18, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd be happy to have Trump's net worth in the article as soon as he releases his tax returns and the mainstream media is in a position to credibly verify his claims. -- Scjessey ( talk) 14:36, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Again, I produced ten reasonably high-quality, high-profile reliable sources covering this. If people were pushing to create an entire paragraph, I could understand your
WP:BALANCE objection, but for something that has seen overwhelming, sustained news coverage, I think it's a bit silly to suggest that a single sentence on a tape that received heavy coverage is unbalanced or
WP:UNDUE. Just for comparison to things already in the article, compare to the "professional wrestling" section, for instance; numerous things in the article have received far less coverage in reliable sources than this. EDIT: Here's some additional sources.
[14]
[15]
[16]. Again, note that these ones unambiguously report the tape's contents as fact (and the last one provides extensive context to show why it's important.) I'm not sure what else people want given that we only need to establish due weight for a single sentence on a topic that has received extensive coverage. --
Aquillion (
talk) 18:57, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Just because people are jealous of Trumps wealth or dislike the fact that is via a private company and not a public company doesn't mean that we should WP:CENSOR it. Sources have claimed his wealth is what they claim it is, even if you state that it just goes back to Forbes we need to remember that multiple sources have reported on it and therefore it is WP:DUE. -- Emir of Wikipedia ( talk) 19:32, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd be happy to have Trump's net worth in the article as soon as he releases his tax returnsabove. We should not be waiting for tax returns but the reliable sources. Emir of Wikipedia ( talk) 20:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Sorry I am kind of late the party, but I had hoped to clarify the situations just so I understand. Is all this basically to see if we should reinstate this material possibly with other/additional sources? PackMecEng ( talk) 20:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
In our first-ever list, in 1982, we included him at $100 million, but Trump was actually worth roughly $5 million' — a paltry sum by the standards of his super-monied peers — as a spate of government reports and books showed only much later.. In fact one of other RS we use here this nytimes piece (fron 2005) shows our wealth section needs reworking to show how much doubt there is about the various estimates given Galobtter ( pingó mió) 15:01, 24 April 2018 (UTC) More RS are there [17]. The wealth section really needs a rewrite. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 15:58, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Irrelevant to discussion Atsme 📞 📧 20:08, 25 April 2018 (UTC) |
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You are misrepresenting what I said, O3000 - read the diff. We were talking about a malformed RfC that was not even started - there was a local survey in process. There is nothing inappropriate about asking for wider community involvement when an issue fails local consensus. In fact, it is encouraged, especially when it involves highly disputed areas. Atsme 📞 📧 15:38, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
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Hello, I would like to have the sentence below, with footnotes, added to the end of the first paragraph of "Early life and education," following footnote 14. (There were more articles on this and McIntosh was interviewed for a few Frontline shows on Trump but I thought the footnotes below were adequate. Was not going to add McIntosh's name but since he is listed on Wiki, did, according to policy. FYI: ultimately McIntosh thought Trump was likable and he did watch out for him, but thought that was not Wiki appropriate to add since it was a judgement.)
"Trump was asked to keep an eye on an underclassman, Sandy McIntosh, son of a business acquaintance of Trump's father, who has been interviewed extensively about how the culture of hazing at the New York Military Academy formed Trump's behavior. [1] [2]"
Thank you. Ogmany ( talk) 23:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
"Trump was asked to keep an eye on an underclassman, son of a business acquaintance of Trump's father at the Academy, which "could be a brutal place where grown men who were veterans of the real military ruled with threats and force," who has discussed how the culture of hazing formed Trump's behavior. Trump’s first year, "was hellish" and he was reprimanded, but eventually assumed a leadership position at the school and "lied about his athletic exploits, escaped accountability and did everything for show." [3] [4] [5]" Ogmany ( talk) 18:37, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
-- Mr Ernie ( talk), Emir of Wikipedia ( talk), Sovietmessiah ( talk), power~enwiki ( π, ν) There are an unprecedented number of generals working in the White House. [6] [7] [8] Trump's only military background, his school, and history of his formative years is important presidential leadership background. How about this, shorter, more direct, and Markbassett, ( talk) Galobtter ( pingó mió) it explains the culture where Trump came of age and the roots of his leadership style, with a direct quote from Trump on the NYMA's impact on his leadership style:
The Academy "could be a brutal place where grown men who were veterans of the real military ruled with threats and force. Trump's first year, "was hellish" and he was reprimanded, but eventually assumed a leadership position at the school and "lied about his athletic exploits, escaped accountability and did everything for show." [9] [10] The culture of hazing formed Trump's behavior, [11] where "You had to learn how to survive, essentially, with some of these guys. I learned discipline — how to dish it out and otherwise.” [12] ( talk) 02:56, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
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Still no. If there's an effort to collaboratively write a book-length biography of Mr. Trump, it would be useful there. In this article, the fact that he attended the school is sufficient, there's no need for further detail. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:06, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. without seeing the bias in this article. Consider the opening sentence... "Trump was born and raised in the New York City borough of Queens, and earned an economics degree from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania." Trump RECEIVED a degree. Whether or not he EARNED it is someone's opinion. Abkedefghi ( talk) 07:34, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
"Earned" is NPOV to suggest otherwise is petty. I oppose "received." –
Lionel(
talk) 02:34, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Psst.. Drmies, can we collapse the above? Atsme 📞 📧 22:18, 1 May 2018 (UTC) |
Can someone link the Iran withdraw in the lead to United States withdrawal from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action? Thanks. FlowerRoad ( talk) 00:51, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
In January 2018, South Korean president Moon Jae-in praised Trump's tough stance toward the North, stating that Trump deserved "big" credit for his efforts in facilitating talks between North and South Korea[597] and has endorsed him for the Nobel Peace Prize
- The part about the Nobel Peace Prize has been added and reverted
[21], so let's discuss it. My take is that "being nominated for a Nobel Prize" is virtually meaningless (virtually everyone prominent in global affairs is nominated
[22]), and doubly so in this case as it would be based on a peace deal that hasn't even happened yet. So it shouldn't be included, particularly in this article where space is at a premium.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν) 04:46, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
"A nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize may be submitted by any person who meets the nomination criteria. A letter of invitation to submit is not required. The names of the nominees and other information about the nominations cannot be revealed until 50 years later."And "Qualified Nominators" include: "university professors, professors emeriti and associate professors of history, social sciences, law, philosophy, theology, and religion etc etc etc." We're talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands of qualified nominators here. See [25]. -- Tataral ( talk) 18:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
by editor Richwales with the comment WP:DOX: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&oldid=840922337. I can't figure out why or exactly what happened. My edits among the blanked ones don't contain any personal information on anyone; I haven't checked on anyone else's. The actual edits are still on the Talk page, it's just not possible to call them up in the history. Can someone undo whatever was done? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 07:58, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Chill out, folks. When something has been oversighted, it is hidden from EVERYONE. Even admins can't see oversighted material (unlike revdel material which we can see). What oversight amounts to is a very high level of "classified". Since the reason given was DOX, presumably there was some kind of personal information revealed. Since the editing around that time was in the Doc Bornstein section it's possible the material related to him, but we can't tell because it is gone, gone, gone. It might have been something about one of the other people posting on the board. It might have been about something completely unrelated. Whatever it was, it apparently stayed on the board for several dozen subsequent edits before an oversighter found it and decided it could not stay on Wikipedia. That kind of judgment is what we entrust oversighters with and it's why they get the big bucks. The intermediate edits were removed from view because even though the edits were innocent, the view of the page from that date and time contained the problem material. I think you can all rest assured it was not something you did - or need to worry about. -- MelanieN ( talk) 20:17, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Someone made a comment in which they referred, in passing, to another editor's activity on another site. That other editor expressed concern, off-wiki, that connecting him to said other site (a connection which he himself had never made here on Wikipedia) could lead to disclosure here of his real-life identity. Per our outing/doxing policy (WP:DOX) and our suppression/oversight policy ( WP:OVER), I redacted the mentioning of the other site, and I also made all the intervening snapshots in this page's revision history invisible to everyone except the approximately 50 editors currently granted the "oversight" permission (listed here).
Note that suppressing the revisions in question did not remove other people's comments made on this page — all it did was hide some of the page's revision history. It was essential to do this in order to keep the outing/doxing material truly hidden. Unfortunately, there is no way to edit a past revision (snapshot) of a Wikipedia page; the only way to deal with a past revision which contains problematic material is to make that past revision invisible in its entirety.
This whole matter has been discussed on an e-mail list used by the aforementioned 50 "oversighters" (a group which, btw, also includes present and past members of the Arbitration Committee). By the very nature of situations like this, the details cannot be disclosed on-wiki — hence the e-mail list. Fwiw, User:Primefac, who commented earlier in this discussion thread, is an "oversighter" and is aware of the details here.
That's really all I (or any other oversighter) can say here. I am not going to name the editor who originally made the comment that triggered this kerfuffle — who, btw, has not been blocked or otherwise disciplined, since their action was almost certainly certainly not a deliberate or malicious doxing/outing attempt. Nor am I going to identify the other editor, and I'm certainly not going to name the off-wiki site where he allegedly also participates. And as a courtesy to that other editor, I would urge people not to try to deduce or reconstruct the redacted material; I can assure you that it's not relevant to any discussion here about Donald Trump (and much as it may grate on some of you, I'm afraid you're just going to have to trust me on this). —
Rich
wales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC) 23:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
This edit by Winkelvi ( talk · contribs) violates ArbCom's ruling on political articles on the basis that it reverts material that has been challenged. That edit has previously been notified of the ArbCom ruling and the associated discretionary sanctions. No effort has been made by that user to engage in talk page discussion, so I have created this thread on Winkelvi's behalf. My view is that the material should be excluded on the basis of notability, for the reasons documented in the edit summary given by Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk · contribs). -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Doing a basic Google search brought up quite a few stories on this in several news sources, I chose the one with the most recent date. And since when does Wikipedia consider Snopes a reliable source? One more question: Does no one apply WP:AGF anymore? While it would seem the answer is 'no', let's not forget that the policy still exists. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 15:58, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
It's very hard to see this passing DUE WEIGHT for Trump's biography, a story rich with events far more significant that we do not even mention here. It may belong in the Presidency article. There does seem to be at least a smattering of RS coverage (not cited here) and it appears to be quite unflattering. SPECIFICO talk 16:09, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please consider adding link at "Vatican" (the only mention of such on this page, re Trump's audience with the Pope) to this article discussing details of Trump's visit to the Vatican: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/world/europe/trump-pope-vatican.html
The above article link describes in detail the visit and particulars of historic interest.
Thank you!
Cato1713 Cato1713 ( talk) 04:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
I made some corrections, but didn't touch the last sentence. The source from April 1, 1987, doesn't say that he operated the rink for a year, it merely mentions the first winter's profits. I haven't found any source that says how long he operated the rink/restaurant/concessions the first time around. The agreement for the construction also awarded him the operation of rink/restaurant/concessions, with the profits to be given to charity and public works (he did, but the sources only mention the first winter). Trump wanted a 10-year contract, the city offered 4. Did he accept 4? He (or rather Wollman Rink Operations LLC) won a contract in 2001 to operate Wollman and Lasker rinks from November 1, 2001, to April 30, 2012, and I read in one of the sources that he lost out to another bidder in the Nineties but it didn't specify when. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Found it, along with a picture of the man on his Trump-branded Zamboni. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:10, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I have a quick question regarding the birthplace in the infobox: should we list it as "New York City, New York, U.S.", or just keep it as "New York City"? Lord Sjones23 ( talk - contributions) 02:24, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
It's perfect like it is. We all know where New york City is. Sovietmessiah ( talk) 20:38, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
"Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican, and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries."
There shouldn't be the comma after the word "Republican," as the first part of that sentence is an independent clause but the second part is a subordinate clause, so putting a comma with the conjunction is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.33.35.209 ( talk) 16:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Close was requested on 5 May by the prolific close requester, Cunard. [28] ― Mandruss ☎ 20:57, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Should the paragraph (or any mention) about the Obama "birther" conspiracy theory be included:
Note: Please do not clutter the Survey section with lengthy comments - use the Threaded discussion section. Atsme 📞 📧 03:04, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Adding another option which has already gained support from three editors. — JFG talk 10:55, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
"showed how the rumor began in connection with the 2008 Clinton campaign regarding Clinton aide, Mark Penn, who sent then-Senator Clinton a 2007 strategy memo advising the pointing out of Obama’s "lack of American roots"- I advise people to read the Politifact link she supplies, which shows that the Mark Penn memo did not mention or even hint at anything about Obama’s birthplace, and actually advised the campaign to emphasize Hillary’s “American-ness” but say nothing about Obama’s background. -- MelanieN ( talk) 19:43, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
...but supporters of Hillary Clinton, now Mr Obama’s Secretary of State, are largely to blame for starting it.With regards to the 2016 Trump statement, perhaps you know what was meant by "Clinton campaign"? Does it refer to Clinton supporters, delegates, DNC staff, campaign staff, Clinton aides, or what? Sources say it was supporters of Hillary Clinton, so it's best to simply say what the sources say. Atsme 📞 📧 20:19, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
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{{
Main|Racial views of Donald Trump}}
, is about Trump's racial views. The little actual evidence presented to date has been Atsme, in Threaded discussion, pretty much shooting down in flames many of the sources used there. If Trump cynically and shrewdly exploits American racism for political gain, that doesn't make birtherism a Trump "racial view". Only a racist would push this kind of conspiracy bullshitis simply false. Not C because this passes WEIGHT for his BLP. I will monitor developments as this RfC progresses and my !vote is changeable by evidence. ― Mandruss ☎ 11:36, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
-- Aquillion ( talk) 06:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
RS refer to it as the birther conspiracy theories. Op-ed try to conflate it with racism, and do a bad job of it. Our own WP article
Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories states "A number of political commentators have characterized these various claims as a racist reaction..."
The sources cited in this article either (a) do not support the claim that questioning Obama's place of birth is the result of Trump's racist view, or (b) that it's racial paranoia to support the birther claim and that the claim is tinged with racism. The ones I checked refer to it as Trump promoting the birther conspiracy theory. I checked the following cited sources:
I'm not going to list all the sources - I've proven my point. I am truly disappointed in the way this whole birther has been handled. Atsme 📞 📧 03:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Achieving what the Wikipedia community understands as neutrality means carefully and critically analyzing a variety of reliable sources and then attempting to convey to the reader the information contained in them fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without editorial bias. Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them.You already know what constitutes RS - and it's wonderful that you cited academic sources - but let's not forget, Trump has only been in office a little over a year. We can go back in time before he was a presidential candidate, and you'd be hard pressed to find "multiple" RS referring to him as "racist" prior to his presidential campaign; however, if you can prove me wrong (substantially), I will enter into WP servitude for an entire 2 weeks of serial comma duty. FBDB Atsme 📞 📧 23:14, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
This is exactly what I was hoping we could avoid at this RfC, which should be a simple discussion about where in the article to put the birtherism stuff. It's unquestionable that most of the impetus behind birtherism (a preposterous attempt to claim he was somehow born in Kenya even though his parents were living and attending school in Honolulu) was racial prejudice, an attempt to de-legitimize our first black president. However, that does not mean that Trump's own motivation for promoting it was racial; it's far more likely that he did it out of political opportunism, realizing that it gave him a lot of publicity and a strong support base (and not caring why those supporters were so enthused about the idea). So let's take as a given: saying he supported birtherism is not equivalent to saying he was a racist. That leaves us with a simple question of article content: where should we put the birtherism information? -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:41, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
began in connection with the 2008 Clinton campaign, and also in a chain of emails by Clinton supporters.: Please strike "in connection with the Clinton campaign." Yes, there were emails on the subject among Clinton supporters - whether or not they originated the story or were repeating an earlier claim. There is no evidence at all that the claim originated with, or was promoted by, the Clinton campaign itelf. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:54, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
User:JFG, just to bring the discussion about Cruz and McCain down to the discussion area instead of up in the survey: You keep asking, how could birtherism be a racist thing when there were also doubts about Cruz's and McCain's citizenship? Several differences. First, there actually were valid reasons to doubt the "natural born citizenship" of Cruz and McCain, because Cruz actually was born in another country - Canada - and McCain was born in the Canal Zone. (And before them George Romney, born in Mexico to American parents, in his day a serious presidential candidate.) Second, the citizenship objections to Cruz and McCain were mainly academic and of interest only to political junkies; they didn't ever emerge in public as serious obstacles to their candidacies, much less become persistent and passionate mass beliefs. Why the differences, when there were actually valid reasons for doubting the eligibility of Cruz and McCain, and only fantasy theories for doubting Obama? I think it's pretty obvious why Obama was treated so differently. -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:11, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
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"The motivation of his supporters was mostly racial..."Uhm, MelanieN, you might want to qualify that statement because the way it reads now, you're labeling nearly half of the American population as being racially motivated. Presidential candidates are typically highly scrutinized as were Romney, Cruz & Rubio regarding their place of birth. What race is Romney?
exploiting the racist views of others for personal gain is in itself a racist act, is it not?It is not. It is shrewd, cynical, opportunistic politics. ― Mandruss ☎ 20:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Atsme; The birther paragraph simply does not belong in the "Racial views" section.
There is no clear-cut consensus when looking towards the RSs on this one.
Nor can we debate Trump's motives and what we believe had to be on his mind, and establish our own editorial policy. Why? Because as ad hoc all-volunteer amateur authors (wikipedians), that would be original research and we mustn't pretend we are qualified to depart from RSs and forge our own unique take on the matter.
McCain's Constitutional qualifications to be president was raised by his detractors but gained zero traction from the mainstream media ( article link to The Washington Post) so the issue was dropped. Some have written here that Trump can't do the same thing to Obama that was done to McCain and raise the Birther issue because Obama is Black—and that fact couldn't have been lost on Trump—so it must be racist. Such arguments are a classic example of a person's race becoming an issue because some people want to make it an issue.
Absent a clear picture from a good majority of reliable sources, we have no business running off on our own declaring the “Birther = racism.” Greg L ( talk) 23:34, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Is this WikiPedia or a TDS party in a "cry closet." Personal opinion on matters such as "racism" and "misogyny" have no place on WikiPedia. Both "racism" and "misogyny" have very clearly defined definitions and unless you can demonstrate examples where DJT has show a pervasive pattern of either, the whole sections need to be deleted. Do you have examples where DJT refuses to place women in prominent positions of power in his business and administration? Of course you do not so any accusation of "misogyny" are utter bullspit. Same goes for the overused liberal tag of "racist." Do you have any instances where DJT claimed white people are superior to other races? If not, then the whole racism issue also must deleted. Some people need to decide if they want Wikipedia to be an impartial and authoritative source, or a part of the DNC "echo chamber." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bdotp ( talk • contribs) 03:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Today, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition.You can find the cites there. Third, can you please be civil?
TDS party in a cry closetand
DNC echo chamberare not helpful. O3000 ( talk) 13:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
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Archive 75 | Archive 76 | Archive 77 | Archive 78 | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | → | Archive 85 |
As I have often stated here, the sourcing on Trump's legendary wealth is based largely on that -- legend. It is quite as plausible that all of what appears to be his personal wealth is instead a lifestyle funded by his investors in order to sustain the branding of Trump as a successful businessperson. This story in today's Washington Post helps us reconsider the weight currently given to reports that, in part, make undue inferences concerning wealth that is not directly audited or disclosed [1] SPECIFICO talk 19:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
FWIW - yes - *entirely* agree - adding the word "allegedly" (and relevant CNN ref [1]) to the article text (and the other related refs [2] [3]) seems indicated to me as well - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan ( talk) 03:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
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Frankly, I would rather see the "net worth" thingy removed completely. Is it really a defining characteristic of the man, other than the fact his claims of his wealth outstrip reality? -- Scjessey ( talk) 13:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
"I also listened to the recording...it was not what was represented.". Could you please elaborate?- Mr X 🖋 21:49, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
"...Barron told me, he [Trump] should be called a billionaire."That's not mentioned in either of the recordings. I also question why he waited 36 years to
"unwind the elaborate farce Trump had enacted".I don't know about you, by my editorial judgment is waving a big 🚩. You also have to consider the methodology of the Forbes 400 list, and compare it to others in that same time frame, such as Bloomberg. Even with all that aside, what benefit does inclusion serve to our readers? It's certainly not the kind of scholarly sourced information that belongs in an encyclopedia; rather, it's one person's allegation after 36 years of not noticing anything unusual during the original phone calls. Whose competency does that speak to? Trump made the Forbes 400, so if that one phone call is all Greenberg and the Forbes editors needed for the listing, then maybe SPECIFICO is right about the Forbes' estimates being garbage. Atsme 📞 📧 01:53, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
I see that Atsme is back to removing any negative content by spuriously citing WP:UNDUE. Also, the edit summary is false - it's not an opinion piece (doesn't matter if you make that claim twice) but a piece by an investigative journalist. And calling it "poorly soured" is a joke, right?
So is Atsme just going to consistently veto any changes to the article per WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Discussion of news topics with a point of view, including narratives by individuals regarding their own experiences; i.e., opinion. The 2nd cited source is nothing more than circular reporting, links back to the WaPo piece. The 3rd cited source is another opinion piece they call analysis, and it too points back to the WaPo allegations, so there is no reliable investigative journalism going on in either the 2nd or 3rd cited sources. Jonathan Greenberg hasn't worked for Forbes since 2008 or thereabouts - he's a blog writer for HuffPo. I don't consider digging up prattle that dates back to the 1980s to be encyclopedic...especially when it's based on nothing more than one person's allegations. Atsme 📞 📧 23:04, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
"The sourcing is questionable at best" - what exactly is questionable here? That it's reported in three different sources? That it's in a "Analysis" section which is NOT "opinion"? This is utterly spurious. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 01:58, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
The specific veracity of Greenberg's allegations, though backed up by a recently discovered audio recording, will have to be sussed out, but it is notably still true that we don't know as much as you would think about the President's finances.But the sources aren't the only problem with that sentence as I've already explained. Atsme 📞 📧 04:02, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact.Your arguments are becoming more unconvincing, not less. Atsme 📞 📧 13:18, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Something, like this, that is extremely prominent relative to other news about the subject, deserves at least a sentence in the article. -- Aquillion ( talk) 18:57, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Anyway, I think we're going in circles here. We have the main arguments (the question of WP:DUE, the question of whether we can include an opinion piece with an inline cite, arguments over the quality of the sources.) By a quick nose-count of the conversation, I'm seeing ~5-7 people supporting inclusion and at most maybe 2-3 opposing it - and that is being very generous to Atsme by including anyone who has voiced any direct objections at all at any point in the discussion; nobody, that I can see, has backed his specific objections explicitly, while several people have given detailed answers. Does anyone other than Atsme want to weigh in or add another argument, or to argue that this is not a rough consensus to include for now? We can refine it and try to improve it to meet objections; or, if someone other than Atsme really objects, we can go to an WP:RFC or something, but right now I'm seeing a rough consensus to include despite Atsme's vehement objections, and discussions seem to have devolved into like five or six people actively arguing with one person, with the arguments just repeating themselves over and over. -- Aquillion ( talk) 06:02, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.While it may be a recent event in the news, it certainly wasn't an issue 36-years ago. It is nothing more than a one-sided allegation based on edited recordings by an ex-employee of Forbes who now writes a blog for HuffPo. It obviously didn't stop Trump from being included in Forbes or Bloomberg, so at this point in time, what difference does it make? I mean the irony is off the charts. Media is now attempting to discredit the wealth of a person they have, for decades, portrayed as an extremely wealthy person. It is not only disingenuous, it punches all kinds of holes in the argument for inclusion. Oh, look - RS say Trump is a multimillionaire...no, a billionaire...and now that he's president, despite their consistently wrong predictions during the campaign, they're saying nah, he's not that rich. *lol* And while we're on the subject of worth, what exactly is that allegation worth to the quality and credibility of our encyclopedia? Our readers will not miss that sentence if it isn't included, and even if it is included, our readers will either choose to believe it or not; some simply won't care. I doubt that a large number will actually get past the lede anyway. Keep in mind, Trump hasn't even completed 1½ of his term, so there's going to be more material added to the article, and it's highly likely that a lot of the unneccessary gossipy stuff will be removed. Atsme 📞 📧 14:18, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd be happy to have Trump's net worth in the article as soon as he releases his tax returns and the mainstream media is in a position to credibly verify his claims. -- Scjessey ( talk) 14:36, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Again, I produced ten reasonably high-quality, high-profile reliable sources covering this. If people were pushing to create an entire paragraph, I could understand your
WP:BALANCE objection, but for something that has seen overwhelming, sustained news coverage, I think it's a bit silly to suggest that a single sentence on a tape that received heavy coverage is unbalanced or
WP:UNDUE. Just for comparison to things already in the article, compare to the "professional wrestling" section, for instance; numerous things in the article have received far less coverage in reliable sources than this. EDIT: Here's some additional sources.
[14]
[15]
[16]. Again, note that these ones unambiguously report the tape's contents as fact (and the last one provides extensive context to show why it's important.) I'm not sure what else people want given that we only need to establish due weight for a single sentence on a topic that has received extensive coverage. --
Aquillion (
talk) 18:57, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Just because people are jealous of Trumps wealth or dislike the fact that is via a private company and not a public company doesn't mean that we should WP:CENSOR it. Sources have claimed his wealth is what they claim it is, even if you state that it just goes back to Forbes we need to remember that multiple sources have reported on it and therefore it is WP:DUE. -- Emir of Wikipedia ( talk) 19:32, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I'd be happy to have Trump's net worth in the article as soon as he releases his tax returnsabove. We should not be waiting for tax returns but the reliable sources. Emir of Wikipedia ( talk) 20:11, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Sorry I am kind of late the party, but I had hoped to clarify the situations just so I understand. Is all this basically to see if we should reinstate this material possibly with other/additional sources? PackMecEng ( talk) 20:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
In our first-ever list, in 1982, we included him at $100 million, but Trump was actually worth roughly $5 million' — a paltry sum by the standards of his super-monied peers — as a spate of government reports and books showed only much later.. In fact one of other RS we use here this nytimes piece (fron 2005) shows our wealth section needs reworking to show how much doubt there is about the various estimates given Galobtter ( pingó mió) 15:01, 24 April 2018 (UTC) More RS are there [17]. The wealth section really needs a rewrite. Galobtter ( pingó mió) 15:58, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Irrelevant to discussion Atsme 📞 📧 20:08, 25 April 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
You are misrepresenting what I said, O3000 - read the diff. We were talking about a malformed RfC that was not even started - there was a local survey in process. There is nothing inappropriate about asking for wider community involvement when an issue fails local consensus. In fact, it is encouraged, especially when it involves highly disputed areas. Atsme 📞 📧 15:38, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
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Hello, I would like to have the sentence below, with footnotes, added to the end of the first paragraph of "Early life and education," following footnote 14. (There were more articles on this and McIntosh was interviewed for a few Frontline shows on Trump but I thought the footnotes below were adequate. Was not going to add McIntosh's name but since he is listed on Wiki, did, according to policy. FYI: ultimately McIntosh thought Trump was likable and he did watch out for him, but thought that was not Wiki appropriate to add since it was a judgement.)
"Trump was asked to keep an eye on an underclassman, Sandy McIntosh, son of a business acquaintance of Trump's father, who has been interviewed extensively about how the culture of hazing at the New York Military Academy formed Trump's behavior. [1] [2]"
Thank you. Ogmany ( talk) 23:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
"Trump was asked to keep an eye on an underclassman, son of a business acquaintance of Trump's father at the Academy, which "could be a brutal place where grown men who were veterans of the real military ruled with threats and force," who has discussed how the culture of hazing formed Trump's behavior. Trump’s first year, "was hellish" and he was reprimanded, but eventually assumed a leadership position at the school and "lied about his athletic exploits, escaped accountability and did everything for show." [3] [4] [5]" Ogmany ( talk) 18:37, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
-- Mr Ernie ( talk), Emir of Wikipedia ( talk), Sovietmessiah ( talk), power~enwiki ( π, ν) There are an unprecedented number of generals working in the White House. [6] [7] [8] Trump's only military background, his school, and history of his formative years is important presidential leadership background. How about this, shorter, more direct, and Markbassett, ( talk) Galobtter ( pingó mió) it explains the culture where Trump came of age and the roots of his leadership style, with a direct quote from Trump on the NYMA's impact on his leadership style:
The Academy "could be a brutal place where grown men who were veterans of the real military ruled with threats and force. Trump's first year, "was hellish" and he was reprimanded, but eventually assumed a leadership position at the school and "lied about his athletic exploits, escaped accountability and did everything for show." [9] [10] The culture of hazing formed Trump's behavior, [11] where "You had to learn how to survive, essentially, with some of these guys. I learned discipline — how to dish it out and otherwise.” [12] ( talk) 02:56, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
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Still no. If there's an effort to collaboratively write a book-length biography of Mr. Trump, it would be useful there. In this article, the fact that he attended the school is sufficient, there's no need for further detail. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:06, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. without seeing the bias in this article. Consider the opening sentence... "Trump was born and raised in the New York City borough of Queens, and earned an economics degree from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania." Trump RECEIVED a degree. Whether or not he EARNED it is someone's opinion. Abkedefghi ( talk) 07:34, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
"Earned" is NPOV to suggest otherwise is petty. I oppose "received." –
Lionel(
talk) 02:34, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Psst.. Drmies, can we collapse the above? Atsme 📞 📧 22:18, 1 May 2018 (UTC) |
Can someone link the Iran withdraw in the lead to United States withdrawal from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action? Thanks. FlowerRoad ( talk) 00:51, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
In January 2018, South Korean president Moon Jae-in praised Trump's tough stance toward the North, stating that Trump deserved "big" credit for his efforts in facilitating talks between North and South Korea[597] and has endorsed him for the Nobel Peace Prize
- The part about the Nobel Peace Prize has been added and reverted
[21], so let's discuss it. My take is that "being nominated for a Nobel Prize" is virtually meaningless (virtually everyone prominent in global affairs is nominated
[22]), and doubly so in this case as it would be based on a peace deal that hasn't even happened yet. So it shouldn't be included, particularly in this article where space is at a premium.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν) 04:46, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
"A nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize may be submitted by any person who meets the nomination criteria. A letter of invitation to submit is not required. The names of the nominees and other information about the nominations cannot be revealed until 50 years later."And "Qualified Nominators" include: "university professors, professors emeriti and associate professors of history, social sciences, law, philosophy, theology, and religion etc etc etc." We're talking about tens if not hundreds of thousands of qualified nominators here. See [25]. -- Tataral ( talk) 18:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
by editor Richwales with the comment WP:DOX: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Donald_Trump&oldid=840922337. I can't figure out why or exactly what happened. My edits among the blanked ones don't contain any personal information on anyone; I haven't checked on anyone else's. The actual edits are still on the Talk page, it's just not possible to call them up in the history. Can someone undo whatever was done? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 07:58, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Chill out, folks. When something has been oversighted, it is hidden from EVERYONE. Even admins can't see oversighted material (unlike revdel material which we can see). What oversight amounts to is a very high level of "classified". Since the reason given was DOX, presumably there was some kind of personal information revealed. Since the editing around that time was in the Doc Bornstein section it's possible the material related to him, but we can't tell because it is gone, gone, gone. It might have been something about one of the other people posting on the board. It might have been about something completely unrelated. Whatever it was, it apparently stayed on the board for several dozen subsequent edits before an oversighter found it and decided it could not stay on Wikipedia. That kind of judgment is what we entrust oversighters with and it's why they get the big bucks. The intermediate edits were removed from view because even though the edits were innocent, the view of the page from that date and time contained the problem material. I think you can all rest assured it was not something you did - or need to worry about. -- MelanieN ( talk) 20:17, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Someone made a comment in which they referred, in passing, to another editor's activity on another site. That other editor expressed concern, off-wiki, that connecting him to said other site (a connection which he himself had never made here on Wikipedia) could lead to disclosure here of his real-life identity. Per our outing/doxing policy (WP:DOX) and our suppression/oversight policy ( WP:OVER), I redacted the mentioning of the other site, and I also made all the intervening snapshots in this page's revision history invisible to everyone except the approximately 50 editors currently granted the "oversight" permission (listed here).
Note that suppressing the revisions in question did not remove other people's comments made on this page — all it did was hide some of the page's revision history. It was essential to do this in order to keep the outing/doxing material truly hidden. Unfortunately, there is no way to edit a past revision (snapshot) of a Wikipedia page; the only way to deal with a past revision which contains problematic material is to make that past revision invisible in its entirety.
This whole matter has been discussed on an e-mail list used by the aforementioned 50 "oversighters" (a group which, btw, also includes present and past members of the Arbitration Committee). By the very nature of situations like this, the details cannot be disclosed on-wiki — hence the e-mail list. Fwiw, User:Primefac, who commented earlier in this discussion thread, is an "oversighter" and is aware of the details here.
That's really all I (or any other oversighter) can say here. I am not going to name the editor who originally made the comment that triggered this kerfuffle — who, btw, has not been blocked or otherwise disciplined, since their action was almost certainly certainly not a deliberate or malicious doxing/outing attempt. Nor am I going to identify the other editor, and I'm certainly not going to name the off-wiki site where he allegedly also participates. And as a courtesy to that other editor, I would urge people not to try to deduce or reconstruct the redacted material; I can assure you that it's not relevant to any discussion here about Donald Trump (and much as it may grate on some of you, I'm afraid you're just going to have to trust me on this). —
Rich
wales (no relation to Jimbo) 23:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC) 23:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
This edit by Winkelvi ( talk · contribs) violates ArbCom's ruling on political articles on the basis that it reverts material that has been challenged. That edit has previously been notified of the ArbCom ruling and the associated discretionary sanctions. No effort has been made by that user to engage in talk page discussion, so I have created this thread on Winkelvi's behalf. My view is that the material should be excluded on the basis of notability, for the reasons documented in the edit summary given by Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk · contribs). -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Doing a basic Google search brought up quite a few stories on this in several news sources, I chose the one with the most recent date. And since when does Wikipedia consider Snopes a reliable source? One more question: Does no one apply WP:AGF anymore? While it would seem the answer is 'no', let's not forget that the policy still exists. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 15:58, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
It's very hard to see this passing DUE WEIGHT for Trump's biography, a story rich with events far more significant that we do not even mention here. It may belong in the Presidency article. There does seem to be at least a smattering of RS coverage (not cited here) and it appears to be quite unflattering. SPECIFICO talk 16:09, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please consider adding link at "Vatican" (the only mention of such on this page, re Trump's audience with the Pope) to this article discussing details of Trump's visit to the Vatican: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/world/europe/trump-pope-vatican.html
The above article link describes in detail the visit and particulars of historic interest.
Thank you!
Cato1713 Cato1713 ( talk) 04:35, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
I made some corrections, but didn't touch the last sentence. The source from April 1, 1987, doesn't say that he operated the rink for a year, it merely mentions the first winter's profits. I haven't found any source that says how long he operated the rink/restaurant/concessions the first time around. The agreement for the construction also awarded him the operation of rink/restaurant/concessions, with the profits to be given to charity and public works (he did, but the sources only mention the first winter). Trump wanted a 10-year contract, the city offered 4. Did he accept 4? He (or rather Wollman Rink Operations LLC) won a contract in 2001 to operate Wollman and Lasker rinks from November 1, 2001, to April 30, 2012, and I read in one of the sources that he lost out to another bidder in the Nineties but it didn't specify when. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:00, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Found it, along with a picture of the man on his Trump-branded Zamboni. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:10, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
I have a quick question regarding the birthplace in the infobox: should we list it as "New York City, New York, U.S.", or just keep it as "New York City"? Lord Sjones23 ( talk - contributions) 02:24, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
It's perfect like it is. We all know where New york City is. Sovietmessiah ( talk) 20:38, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
"Trump entered the 2016 presidential race as a Republican, and defeated sixteen opponents in the primaries."
There shouldn't be the comma after the word "Republican," as the first part of that sentence is an independent clause but the second part is a subordinate clause, so putting a comma with the conjunction is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.33.35.209 ( talk) 16:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Close was requested on 5 May by the prolific close requester, Cunard. [28] ― Mandruss ☎ 20:57, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Should the paragraph (or any mention) about the Obama "birther" conspiracy theory be included:
Note: Please do not clutter the Survey section with lengthy comments - use the Threaded discussion section. Atsme 📞 📧 03:04, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Adding another option which has already gained support from three editors. — JFG talk 10:55, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
"showed how the rumor began in connection with the 2008 Clinton campaign regarding Clinton aide, Mark Penn, who sent then-Senator Clinton a 2007 strategy memo advising the pointing out of Obama’s "lack of American roots"- I advise people to read the Politifact link she supplies, which shows that the Mark Penn memo did not mention or even hint at anything about Obama’s birthplace, and actually advised the campaign to emphasize Hillary’s “American-ness” but say nothing about Obama’s background. -- MelanieN ( talk) 19:43, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
...but supporters of Hillary Clinton, now Mr Obama’s Secretary of State, are largely to blame for starting it.With regards to the 2016 Trump statement, perhaps you know what was meant by "Clinton campaign"? Does it refer to Clinton supporters, delegates, DNC staff, campaign staff, Clinton aides, or what? Sources say it was supporters of Hillary Clinton, so it's best to simply say what the sources say. Atsme 📞 📧 20:19, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
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{{
Main|Racial views of Donald Trump}}
, is about Trump's racial views. The little actual evidence presented to date has been Atsme, in Threaded discussion, pretty much shooting down in flames many of the sources used there. If Trump cynically and shrewdly exploits American racism for political gain, that doesn't make birtherism a Trump "racial view". Only a racist would push this kind of conspiracy bullshitis simply false. Not C because this passes WEIGHT for his BLP. I will monitor developments as this RfC progresses and my !vote is changeable by evidence. ― Mandruss ☎ 11:36, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
-- Aquillion ( talk) 06:18, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
RS refer to it as the birther conspiracy theories. Op-ed try to conflate it with racism, and do a bad job of it. Our own WP article
Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories states "A number of political commentators have characterized these various claims as a racist reaction..."
The sources cited in this article either (a) do not support the claim that questioning Obama's place of birth is the result of Trump's racist view, or (b) that it's racial paranoia to support the birther claim and that the claim is tinged with racism. The ones I checked refer to it as Trump promoting the birther conspiracy theory. I checked the following cited sources:
I'm not going to list all the sources - I've proven my point. I am truly disappointed in the way this whole birther has been handled. Atsme 📞 📧 03:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Achieving what the Wikipedia community understands as neutrality means carefully and critically analyzing a variety of reliable sources and then attempting to convey to the reader the information contained in them fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without editorial bias. Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them.You already know what constitutes RS - and it's wonderful that you cited academic sources - but let's not forget, Trump has only been in office a little over a year. We can go back in time before he was a presidential candidate, and you'd be hard pressed to find "multiple" RS referring to him as "racist" prior to his presidential campaign; however, if you can prove me wrong (substantially), I will enter into WP servitude for an entire 2 weeks of serial comma duty. FBDB Atsme 📞 📧 23:14, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
This is exactly what I was hoping we could avoid at this RfC, which should be a simple discussion about where in the article to put the birtherism stuff. It's unquestionable that most of the impetus behind birtherism (a preposterous attempt to claim he was somehow born in Kenya even though his parents were living and attending school in Honolulu) was racial prejudice, an attempt to de-legitimize our first black president. However, that does not mean that Trump's own motivation for promoting it was racial; it's far more likely that he did it out of political opportunism, realizing that it gave him a lot of publicity and a strong support base (and not caring why those supporters were so enthused about the idea). So let's take as a given: saying he supported birtherism is not equivalent to saying he was a racist. That leaves us with a simple question of article content: where should we put the birtherism information? -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:41, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
began in connection with the 2008 Clinton campaign, and also in a chain of emails by Clinton supporters.: Please strike "in connection with the Clinton campaign." Yes, there were emails on the subject among Clinton supporters - whether or not they originated the story or were repeating an earlier claim. There is no evidence at all that the claim originated with, or was promoted by, the Clinton campaign itelf. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:54, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
User:JFG, just to bring the discussion about Cruz and McCain down to the discussion area instead of up in the survey: You keep asking, how could birtherism be a racist thing when there were also doubts about Cruz's and McCain's citizenship? Several differences. First, there actually were valid reasons to doubt the "natural born citizenship" of Cruz and McCain, because Cruz actually was born in another country - Canada - and McCain was born in the Canal Zone. (And before them George Romney, born in Mexico to American parents, in his day a serious presidential candidate.) Second, the citizenship objections to Cruz and McCain were mainly academic and of interest only to political junkies; they didn't ever emerge in public as serious obstacles to their candidacies, much less become persistent and passionate mass beliefs. Why the differences, when there were actually valid reasons for doubting the eligibility of Cruz and McCain, and only fantasy theories for doubting Obama? I think it's pretty obvious why Obama was treated so differently. -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:11, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
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"The motivation of his supporters was mostly racial..."Uhm, MelanieN, you might want to qualify that statement because the way it reads now, you're labeling nearly half of the American population as being racially motivated. Presidential candidates are typically highly scrutinized as were Romney, Cruz & Rubio regarding their place of birth. What race is Romney?
exploiting the racist views of others for personal gain is in itself a racist act, is it not?It is not. It is shrewd, cynical, opportunistic politics. ― Mandruss ☎ 20:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Atsme; The birther paragraph simply does not belong in the "Racial views" section.
There is no clear-cut consensus when looking towards the RSs on this one.
Nor can we debate Trump's motives and what we believe had to be on his mind, and establish our own editorial policy. Why? Because as ad hoc all-volunteer amateur authors (wikipedians), that would be original research and we mustn't pretend we are qualified to depart from RSs and forge our own unique take on the matter.
McCain's Constitutional qualifications to be president was raised by his detractors but gained zero traction from the mainstream media ( article link to The Washington Post) so the issue was dropped. Some have written here that Trump can't do the same thing to Obama that was done to McCain and raise the Birther issue because Obama is Black—and that fact couldn't have been lost on Trump—so it must be racist. Such arguments are a classic example of a person's race becoming an issue because some people want to make it an issue.
Absent a clear picture from a good majority of reliable sources, we have no business running off on our own declaring the “Birther = racism.” Greg L ( talk) 23:34, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Is this WikiPedia or a TDS party in a "cry closet." Personal opinion on matters such as "racism" and "misogyny" have no place on WikiPedia. Both "racism" and "misogyny" have very clearly defined definitions and unless you can demonstrate examples where DJT has show a pervasive pattern of either, the whole sections need to be deleted. Do you have examples where DJT refuses to place women in prominent positions of power in his business and administration? Of course you do not so any accusation of "misogyny" are utter bullspit. Same goes for the overused liberal tag of "racist." Do you have any instances where DJT claimed white people are superior to other races? If not, then the whole racism issue also must deleted. Some people need to decide if they want Wikipedia to be an impartial and authoritative source, or a part of the DNC "echo chamber." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bdotp ( talk • contribs) 03:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Today, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition.You can find the cites there. Third, can you please be civil?
TDS party in a cry closetand
DNC echo chamberare not helpful. O3000 ( talk) 13:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC)