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Different versions of the text that we've had over the past several days:
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Here is what the article said a few days ago (for at least a year):
Here is what I changed it to yesterday summed as: while this is undoubtedly true, I'm removing it for two reasons: 1) I think it's a confusing negative-positive (naively when reading, I thought "was he promoting misinformation that tests weren't needed? That tests were needed?") and overall a relatively minor point that is clearly DUE for the body, but not the lead.
Here is what @ Space4Time3Continuum2x changed it to earlier today with summary Trump promoted hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and the internal application of u.v. light, and misinformation about the availability of tests and the need for testing:
Here is what I then tried to implement as a compromise with summary let's just go closer to what it said before. Since the unproven treatments are also misinformation. I'm putting what it said before "and promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the need for testing" but instead changing "need for testing" to "validity of diagnostic tests" since that is what he promoted misinformation about most prominently: [2]:
@ SPECIFICO then reverted that most recent change (not restoring STATUSQUO, but restoring STC's edit) with summary: : No, he promoted the drugs, not "information" about them. And he did not deny the validity of the tests - he said that the valid test results showing increased case numbers was only because there were increased numbers of tests being administered and called the reporting of that increase a "fake news media conspiracy"
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Let's find a compromise. The sources, in my opinion, are clear. Trump did promote misinformation about hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. See:
Sources directly stating that Trump promoted misinformation about unproven COVID-19 treatments
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So I don't see very much room for not describing Trump's promotion of HCQ and ivermectin as "promoting misinformation about unproven treatments." To avoid that because we personally think it isn't "misinformation" would be pro- WP:FRINGE original research.
The more pressing question is: How should we describe the misinformation re: testing? Here is how our sources describe it:
How sources describe Trump's misinformation re: testing
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So how do we summarize that in the lead? I would push for something other than "misinformation about...and the need for testing
". Perhaps:
— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 17:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation on unproven drugsvs.
promoted unproven drugs. I think it is true that he promoted misinformation about the drugs—specifically, by falsely overstating their efficacy. Surely false claims of effectiveness are a type of misinformation, no?Second, regarding testing. I do think the broad
misinformation ... about testingis okay. I don't think "misinformation about the need for testing" is accurate—(falsely) saying that the United States has high case counts because of the testing rates isn't quite the same as saying the testing rates are too high. But
misinformation about [...] COVID case countsis probably the most accurate of the potential statements.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 20:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and testing) is that one possible interpretation of the sentence is that the "
testing" is also "
unproven". — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:52, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about testing and unproven treatments?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 13:55, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
COVID-19 case countswould be the most accurate phrasing (although since we open the sentence with COVID, maybe just
case counts? I am glad that "
need for" seems to have been discarded, and "testing" alone is, I think, my second choice, but "case counts" seems more specific: As I understand them, our sources say that Trump falsely suggested that the U.S. case counts were higher than other countries because of our high testing rates. For me, that's most directly misinformation about case counts ... it's only indirectly misinformation about testing (i.e. a consequence of the testing). I do take Space's point that Trump cast doubt on the need for more tests ... though I'd also say that's indirectly a comment on testing itself.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:16, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about case counts and unproven treatments" — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 14:23, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about testing and unproven treatments. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials in his messaging, and...
Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:53, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about unproven treatment and downplayed the United States's high case count.? -- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:52, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments."
testing and reporting efforts. That would at least give a handwave to the concept of downplaying case counts/reporting specifically.
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, downplayed case count reports, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.That's about as long as I'd like to see a sentence on that, but we're also talking about a lot of hefty WP:FRINGE proponent stuff coming from this BLP that it's important to try to work in case counts. That's especially since downplaying case counts are a common fringe talking point in addition to other political pressure. As an outside commenter, I'd be content with the original version I responded to though too. KoA ( talk) 18:38, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
This little bit of lead text was extensively discussed before being placed in the lead. It was fine, and it was discussed by many well-informed editors at the time -- more than once, as the talk archives show. It was perfectly fine. Like everything else on this site, it was not perfect. So it was tweaked a few times to a slight improvement, then we considered the remote possibility that the improved version might in some rare instance be misconstrued to say something ridiculous. So SpaceX addressed that concern with another little tweak.
Now, many posts later, after SpaceX's fix seemed to have been accepted as a compromise solution, we find this thread engaged in lengthening this little bit, making it IMO less clear and unambiguous. I think we should use the text SpaceX devised and be done. -- Apologies to Jayron, KoA and others who've been drawn in. I'm stumped as to what this has to do with FRINGE. Lies ≠ Fringe. It's been a longstanding goal on this page to shorten it, not lengthen it.
SPECIFICO
talk 19:51, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm stumped as to what this has to do with FRINGE. Lies ≠ Fringe.Lies aren't always WP:FRINGE, but fringe is usually dealing with various types of lies, especially in science/medical topics. Part of the reason I did decide to comment here as someone uninvolved is that Shibbolethink's proposal brought the text more in line with how we typically describe fringe proponents that do pretty major crackpot things. When a BLP does a lot of fringey things, especially more severe, the list in the lead typically gets more expansive, and their proposal was giving more appropriate WP:WEIGHT that FRINGE deals with a lot while also keeping things concise for the amount of ground it has to cover. KoA ( talk) 13:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Here are multiple peer-reviewed scholarly sources which refer to Trump's promotion of misinformation supporting my preferred version above:
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These sources (except where indicated) are scholarly, peer-reviewed secondary articles, from reputable topic-relevant journals.
The sources you've cited are from The Lancet and the JMIR are also scholarly, but they are not all secondary publications. For example, the JMIR piece (which you refer to as an "NIH publication") is an observational study and therefore WP:PRIMARY. It is not published by the NIH. It is authored by two scientists from McGill and York University in Canada, reviewed by academics from Florida State University and Salahaddin University-Erbil in Kurdistan, edited by an academic from the University of Victoria in Canada, and published by a journal based in Toronto, Canada. The Lancet piece is worth considering, but it, like the JMIR, does not actually contradict the claim that Trump's promotion of HCQ etc is "misinformation". It simply does not use the term "misinformation" to refer to anything related. Certainly worth considering, but does not outweigh the large amount of relevant published scholarship which does use that term, shown above.— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
When you search for references, as you have done above, the search query will determine the result. If one is testing the hypothesis that "misinformation" is the dominant issue in RS coverage, such a search must not include "information", "misinformation" or similar.
Trump hydroxychloroquine" here. On The Wikipedia Library and Gale Academic OneFile. Please don't assume how I collect my source reviews in the future and consider asking instead. Thanks! — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
Stable version:
promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the need for testing.
Proposed versions:
1. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments. (Shibbolethink)
UTC 18.53, 17 May
2. promoted unproven treatments and misinformation about testing. (Space4T)
UTC 11.27 18 May
3. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the validity of diagnostic testing. (Shibbolethink)
UTC 15.04 18 May
4. promoted unproven treatments and misinformation about testing. (Specifico)
UTC 16.21 18 May
5. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and testing. (Space4T)
6. promoted misinformation about testing and unproven treatments. (Jerome Francis Disciple, Space4T)
7. misinformation about unproven treatments and COVID-19 case counts. (Shibbolethink)
8. promoted misinformation about statistics and unproven treatments. (Shibbolethink)
9. promoted misinformation about case counts and unproven treatments. (Shibbolethink)
Shibbolethink then cited an impasse between versions 6 and 9, notified two editors who had been involved in the thread (Jayron32 and Cessaune) and WP:FTN (we were neither advocating for, promoting, nor discussing fringe theories). Pinging DFlhb, the—I presume—independent uninvolved editor mentioned in the edit summary in the main space (see link below) who may not have followed the entire "process" from the start.
10. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and tried to use political pressure to interfere with testing efforts. (Jayron32)
11. used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments. {Shibbolethink)
12. testing and reporting efforts. (KoA (editor summoned from FTN))
Shibbolethink then
closed the discussion and two minutes later
edited the main page, saying that of a clear consensus of many multiple independent uninvolved editors on the talk page, this is the most well-liked version
. I counted a total of 8, and multiple editors supported multiple versions of the many proposed versions. If there are any new angles and issues to be considered, they should have been brought up in the discussion, and nobody argued that that would have been a bad thing, but thanks for the lecture. Duly
noted that you tried to implement [] a comprise
and want to find a comprise
while other editors change and revert.
Space4Time3Continuum2x
(talk) 14:23, 20 May 2023 (UTC) Added UTC times and dates for numbered items that indicate main space edits.
Space4Time3Continuum2x
(talk) 10:03, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Shibbolethink then closed the discussion
Pinging DFlhb, the—I presume—independent uninvolved editor mentioned in the edit summary in the main spaceNo, I actually meant @ Jayron32 and @ KoA. DFHib has commented on this talk page in all these various disputes recently, so I wasn't thinking of them as "uninvolved" though they were uninvolved in this particular section, and I do appreciate their input and think their comments in this section are insightful and contribute to any building consensus we have going here.I implemented the version with the most uninvolved editors in support, which arose out of discussion, originally proposed by @ Jayron32. This is perfectly in line with WP:BRD, which specifically permits "
attempt[ing] a new edit that reasonably addresses some aspect of those concerns. You can try this even if the discussion has not reached an explicit conclusion, but be sure to avoid engaging in any kind of edit warring." And yes, I and several other users proposed many different possible versions before other users came along and suggested versions which solved a lot of those problems quite handily. I am in favor of any of versions 10, 11, or 12, which I think are the best proposed so far. Roughly, I would support 12>11>10>>>>>9>>8>>>>all the others.Why is all of this being brought up as some sort of malicious act? (at least that is what I get out of this comment, let me know if I'm misunderstanding the intent. "thanks for the lecture" and advocating against involving WP:FTN are what threw me that direction). Continued massaging of versions and editing back and forth is a normal part of discussion in situations like this. I have broken no policies or guidelines. I am honestly more confused by this comment than anything. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 15:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
Trump didn't spread misinformation about testing per se, what he did was try to stop testing from happening because the results were politically inconvenient for him"; KoA: "
that looks about as accurate as I can think of and shouldn't realistically be a point of dispute for anyone"). KoA also proposed a variation but reiterated he would be okay with Shibbolethink's version. SPECIFICO opposed the proposed version, saying it was "less clear and unambiguous" (emphasis added) and also objected to the increases length. SPECIFICO also proposed an the sentence should be refocused on that "
Trump thought the shutdown would be bad for him politically and deployed numerous strategies to deny the seriousness of the pandemic, resulting in hundreds of thousands of unnecessary American Deaths".
Let's find a compromise. The sources, in my opinion, are clear. Trump did promote misinformation about hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. See: [hatted list of sources] So I don't see very much room for not describing Trump's promotion of HCQ and ivermectin as "promoting misinformation about unproven treatments." To avoid that because we personally think it isn't "misinformation" would be pro- WP:FRINGE original research.[[File:|25px|link=]]
a clear consensus of many multiple independent uninvolved editors on the talk page, this is the most well-liked version, and two minutes later edited the main page with their preferred version while editors were still responding. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:27, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Per my statement above, I think this thread is deep down the rabbit hole. But if we are to continue working on this lead content, let's think about the most important points. They are that Trump thought the shutdown would be bad for him politically and deployed numerous strategies to deny the seriousness of the pandemic, resulting in hundreds of thousands of unnecessary American Deaths. That's a nice summary more important than whether the cure du jour was Bleach, Ivermectin, Hydroxi-whatnot, or UV enemas -- or whether he tried to convince his base than nobody was really getting sick. SPECIFICO talk 20:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, [3] and interfered with government agencies' response. [4]DFlhb ( talk) 21:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
reacted slowly, many countries did; it's highly non-specific, far from the most salient point about Trump's response
ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials: implies a less active role than
interfered(my version). Also implies he only verbally contradicted them, rather than interfering with their actions.
used political pressure to interfere with testing effortstrue but too specific. My version shows he interfered with more than just testing.
spread misinformation about unproven treatmentsis about Trump causing people to choose ineffective treatments after they catch it. My version is more comprehensive:
downplayed the risk of the virusincreased their risk of catching it in the first place. More damaging, since the amount of people that took these treatments is quite a small subset of all the people who took excessive risks and failed to comply with anti-COVID measures.
politicizing the COVID-19 pandemicwas the single most salient point about Trump's response, since it contributed to every other problem: widespread lack of adherence to measures like masks among Republicans, or causing Republicans and even some Democrats to be skeptical of "his" vaccines (see the first Fauci quote in the first paper I linked).
downplayed the risk of the virus, also highly salient. This reduced compliance, which is the biggest factor in the effectiveness of a pandemic response. Also see rationale in point 4 above.
interfered with government agencies' response: a more concise and informative way to state points 2 and 3 of the current version. Also its implicit subtext (
interfered... for electoral/political reasons) is more obvious than in the current version.
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, promoted unproven treatments, and interfered with government agencies' responses.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
the most notable part of Trump's misinformation legacy(Shibbolethink): it doesn't come close to the Big Lie (it's in the name! Many lies, but only one "Big Lie"). Let's take a look at RS about his lies, and see what prominence they give to each: WaPo: they mention Trump's claim that the
pandemic would disappear “like a miracle”(covered by "politicized, downplayed") in the 3rd paragraph, and mention the cures in the same sentence as two other lies in the 12th paragraph. NBC mentions his downplaying the risks in the 4th paragraph, the 10th through 13th, interference in the 14th, then back to downplaying in the 15th to 18th paragraphs. Unproven treatments are down in the 19th. CNN mentions COVID risk-downplaying as the "most dangerous lie" of Trump's entire presidency; doesn't mention unproven treatments.
Dueness arguments are best supported by sources that summarize other sources, which I've presented
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, and interfered with government agencies' response.
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, promoted unproven treatments, and interfered with government agencies' responses.
(Shibbolethink): it doesn't come close to the Big Lie (it's in the name! Many lies, but only one "Big Lie"). Let's
Instead of subjectively (without sources) deciding which lies are notable enough to highlightThis is not what I'm doing. I provided numerous sources above, but here is another source review for good measure:
the ‘Single Largest Driver’ of Coronavirus Misinformation". It says, right there in the article:
But by far the most prevalent topic of misinformation was “miracle cures,” including Mr. Trump’s promotion of anti-malarial drugs and disinfectants as potential treatments for Covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus. That accounted for more misinformation than the other 10 topics combined, the researchers reported.
biggest lies he’s told as the nation endures a public-health and economic calamity". HCQ (and other unproven treatments) is part of 3 entries out of 54. In comparison, no single idea or concept has that many "lies". "Vaccines" are the subject of 2. Masks, 2. Testing being the cause of increased cases, 2 entries. Unproven treatments are, from this article, clearly extremely important as the single most often mentioned controversy (by a plurality), and therefore clearly WP:DUE for the lead.
The president has questioned the efficacy of masks, hyped unproven treatments, and continues to promise a vaccine before experts and the drug companies themselves believe it will actually be ready.. it then prominently dedicates 5 paragraphs and the only graph in the article, to content about Hydroxychloroquine and other "miracle cures".
downplaying the virus and promoting unapproved drugsas the two things Trump did.
That is a biased search queryCompletely disagree. We are discussing what topics to include in a sentence about Trump's failed response. If misinformation isn't included, then we aren't doing our jobs. But I did the search anyway, to get us closer to a compromise whenever possible.
Trump COVID", here are the unbiased results from the first page:
From that point on, throughout the summer, and until election day, Trump would frame the COVID‐19 crisis as a fading problem that was soon going away; blame China for failing to stop the “China virus;” tout false remedies such as hydroxychloroquine; undermine state mitigation measures and encourage protestors by tweeting “Liberate Minnesota,” “Liberate Michigan,” and “Liberate Virginia;” question the need for wearing masks; make strange statements such as suggesting COVID‐19 could be treated by injecting disinfectants; and tell the public and his officials that he wanted testing to be slowed down because more testing would find more cases(unproven treatments are represented by two entries in the list, compared to the testing issue and downplaying severity, which each occupy one entry.)
Is the president receiving any other COVID-19 treatments? The statement released on 2 October by the president's physician said that in addition to the antibodies, Trump "has been taking zinc, vitamin D, famotidine, melatonin and a daily aspirin." That wording leaves unclear whether he was taking those substances before his diagnosed infection. Notably, the statement does not indicate whether Trump was or is taking hydroxychloroquine, the antimalarial he controversially pushed as a COVID-19 treatment.
He has touted the use of the drug, hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19, despite the lack of evidence of its effectiveness, warnings of potential harms, and even after federal COVID-19 treatment guidelines recommended against its use. He suggested that applying ultraviolet light to or inside the body, or injecting disinfectant, could combat coronavirus.
His administration has undermined, suppressed and censored government scientists working to study the virus and reduce its harm. And his appointees have made political tools out of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), ordering the agencies to put out inaccurate information, issue ill-advised health guidance, and tout unproven and potentially harmful treatments for COVID-19.
Documents obtained by the committee also show that Trump political appointees tried to pressure the Food and Drug Administration to authorize ineffective Covid treatments the president was pushing, like hydroxychloroquine and convalescent plasma, over the objections of career scientists, the report said.
As a library, NLM provides access to scientific literature. Inclusion in an NLM database does not imply endorsement of, or agreement with, the contents by NLM or the National Institutes of Health.The Lancet article you've linked is not WP:TERTIARY. It is itself relying on primary sources (e.g. citations 15-19, 21, 24, 25, 28, 32, 35, 37-41, etc etc.) As a result, it is secondary. It is likely reliable as a statement from that commission, but it does not appear to be peer- or editorially-reviewed, or represent the position of the Lancet itself. Similar to how we have dealt with the Lancet covid origins commission. These commissions are heavily biased by the POVs of the commission members, and do not undergo the formal review that a society position statement or policy document typically does. It rises and falls totally on the credentials and care of its authors. And, like many secondary publications, we have no indication of how much it represents the overall state/assessment of the field. It also appears to be focused on "public policy" which, of course, would not include tweets about hydroxychloroquine as these do not represent any formal policy mechanism. The report also does not mention Trump's statements re: testing which I would argue (and you have argued) is DUE for the lead. You have proposed the Columbia report, which I agree is very useful. But so is the Cornell report I linked above. We have no reason to prefer Columbia's over Cornell's for these purposes.As I said, I think this discussion has run its course, and I will not be responding any further, unless requested. Have a nice day! — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:59, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
Trump thought the shutdown would be bad for him politically and deployed numerous strategies to deny the seriousness of the pandemic, resulting in hundreds of thousands of unnecessary American Deaths.citation needed Anon0098 ( talk) 05:32, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments." That sentence is true, reflects the text in the body, and lacks any obvious problems with writing that makes it hard to understand. In short it's fine as it is. Could it be made better, well, no, but not because of "better" not existing, but because "made" is not possible. More plainly: There's no way this group of editors, working in this manner, is going to do anything that's going to make any reasonable improvements on a single sentence which lacks any major problems in content, tone, appropriateness, or grammar. Let it drop is my suggestion. It's good enough as it is, and it feels like there are bigger fish to fry. -- Jayron 32 18:30, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
I have made some additions to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, so don't forget to check and improve it. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
[Y]our complaint was closed because it was problematic for one or more of the following reasons:....") I have two broad issues with the additions. First, I agree with Mandruss that there's a length issue. Second, I find a few of the specific causes spelled out problematic.
It revealed you mistakenly believed that any bias was coming from editors, rather than being an accurate documentation of the bias found in those sources."? That's presented as a reason which—by itself—could warrant closure. But ... what? So the editors on this page are incapable of accidentally introducing bias, and a user who suggests that they have introduced bias gets their discussion closed? To be clear, I realize that's not what @ Valjean meant to say, but that was the literal text.
It revealed you do not know how to vet sources for reliability.... An editor that proposes a source—even a poor one—is far from the type of bad faith / NOTHERE / forum-seeking editor that I understood the message and the policy to apply to. Finally, I think the phrasing here is a bit problematic:
It revealed you did not realize that our sources and content are allowed to be biased, as long as that bias is from the reliable sources we use.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 17:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
FWIW, I'd actually suggest going in the opposite direction and shortening the text. This edit would cut about 25 words.
Alternative
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You have been pointed to this page because you have claimed that the Donald Trump article is, in some way, biased. Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires that articles "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources". This is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia—a fundamental principle central to the function of this website. But a general, non-specific claim of bias rarely yields a productive discussion and will likely result in a premature closure of the discussion. At the general level, since reliable sources are widely critical of Trump, this article reflects that. Still, you are welcome to make or suggest specific, policy-backed improvements; just be sure that any text you suggest is supported by reliable sources—see WP:RS/P for a list of sources considered by the Wikipedia community to be reliable. If your edit to the article is reverted, you may choose to head to the talk page and discuss your proposal there—doing so will likely initiate a discussion that may yield a consensus for a change. Remember to always assume good faith, demonstrate good faith, and be civil. Some of the resources available to you are:
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Just my two cents.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 18:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under the post-presidency tab and indictments section, it says Donald Trump was indicted by a Miami Federal Court on May 8. Per the source provided, it was June 8. Easy fix. Thanks. Rane43 ( talk) 15:19, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
https://chat.openai.com/share/71bc1461-7ad3-4997-977c-285378928c21
Refer to the above link for the conversation using GPT-4.
This article needs a rewrite, and Wikipedia will be seen as an encyclopedia with a clear left-wing bias until this happens. -- zaiisao ( talk | contribs) 04:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
This
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Please add the fact that Trump pleads not guilty to 37-count indictment in classified documents case. Hondabenle ( talk) 07:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
This
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Falsely accused should just say accused and remove falsely to remain bias. 2600:1012:B140:A98C:55D4:286E:4D0C:1E5C ( talk) 23:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I was wondering what you think of adding his campaign website alongside his official website. We have President Biden’s campaign website in the infobox and I think it would be good to add the website. Interstellarity ( talk) 11:54, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Before making another faux pas such as posting an archive link for a story from The Washington Post, I'll ask if it's okay to replace the link to the Post story about Trump's ranking with a link to an alternate source, perhaps one of the following:
Fabrickator ( talk) 07:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
The lede of the article contains the following sentence: “He won the 2016 presidential election as the Republican nominee against Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton despite losing the popular vote.”
In the United States, winning the electoral college vote while losing the popular vote is a perfectly legitimate way in which to win. The use of the word “despite” seems to me to be suggesting otherwise; as though Trump should not have won because of his loss in the popular vote. Obviously this was not the editor’s intention—at least not consciously or deliberately—but my interpretation of it remains the same. This is exacerbated by the inclusion of supplementary information about the electoral college only in an explanatory footnote, which could seriously mislead or confuse readers who do not open it. I propose this sentence be rephrased.
I also take issue with the inclusion of an unlinked “Republican” and an unlinked “Democratic”. These are not preceded by any other mentions of the major U.S. parties and could perfectly well be unclear to non-U.S. readers. I propose they be changed to “ Republican Party” and “ Democratic Party”.
Asperthrow ( talk) 23:01, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
despite" is a fair term there. I disagree that it casts doubts on the legitimacy of the election. Rather, it's an acknowledgment that it's relatively rare for electoral college victors to not win at least a plurality of the popular vote. We have a similar passage for the last person to pull it off: George W. Bush:
In the 2000 United States presidential election, he defeated Democratic incumbent vice president Al Gore, despite losing the popular vote after a narrow and contested win that involved a Supreme Court decision to stop a recount in Florida.
Trump received nearly 2.9 million fewer popular votes than Clinton, which made him the fifth person to be elected president while losing the popular vote." And, again, we use the same word choice for the GWBush article.
I support putting in "while" over despite. Maybe another suggestion could "while at the same time..." Don't know if that's better but I support some sort of change. The Capitalist forever ( talk) 00:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
Okay! Per unanimity here, I'll go ahead and make the change—I'm going to omit the "to her" at the end of the popular vote; since no other candidates are mentioned, I think it's implied. I'm also going to use "while" instead of "while at the same time" (since I think that's redundant)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 01:06, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Jerome Frank Disciple:, don't worry about my suggestion. Just an idea. The Capitalist forever ( talk) 01:13, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
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Add this to the home page.
In June 2023, he was indicted for a second time, relating to the holdings of classified government documents. SergioR3318 ( talk) 00:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
He was just indicted again on I believe 7 accounts, any updates to this would be good Los Pobre ( talk) 00:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
@
Space4Time3Continuum2x and
TheThomanski: I agree with TheThomonanski's partial revert of Space
here. (
Space's edit). I would have actually supported a full revert. Before the federal indictment, the fact that Trump was the first president indicted on criminal charges was in the lead. After the indictment, it was changed to first "indicated on criminal charges" with a link to the state prosecution (and details about the fraud charges) and first "indicted on federal charges" with a link to the federal prosecution page. I
changed it to: In 2023, Trump became the first former U.S. president to face state criminal charges and the first to face federal criminal charges. In March, a Manhattan grand jury
indicted him on 34 felony counts of fraud, and he was
federally indicted in June in relation to his handling of classified documents..
The first sentence was removed because it was a "stat" and "developing story", neither of which I consider legitimate points.--
Jerome Frank Disciple 12:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Over at phab:T337071, Matma Rex said:
(By the way, just look at all this text in the screenshots… ain't nobody reading all that. I had to resize the browser just to show the two messages I am describing. The notice about old revisions is not the only problem here. As long as there is just so much useless text, people will not read it, and will miss the important messages, even if – especially if! – we make them even bigger.)
He's got a point. In VisualEditor, the 2017 text editor, or in any editor on a narrow screen, this looks roughly like:
Notice about sources
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Take extra care to use high-quality sources. Material about living persons should not be added when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism; see more information on sources. Never use self-published sources about a living person unless written or published by the subject; see WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPSELFPUB. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help, see this page. |
You are subject to additional rules when you edit this page. If you do not follow these rules, you may be blocked from editing:
|
Please review current established consensus before editing this article, especially the lead section. Changes against established consensus without prior discussion can be reverted on sight. |
Is there anything that can be trimmed a bit here? Suffusion of Yellow ( talk) 00:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
is the JavaScript for all users. Any changes to this page should first be proposed on its talk page or the Village pump.
uselessto me as they were about to edit an old revision of the page. That's an important message, IMO, just like the following notices.
You are editing an old revision of this page. If you publish it, any changes made since then will be removed. You may wish to edit the current revision insteadwas the important message getting lost in the crowd. The solution to this problem seems easy to me: replace editing for old revisions with viewing and copying only. One less banner to ignore for editors who don't/won't read the banners. If someone inadvertently edits an old revision, the edit can be reverted, and on this page it will be noticed and reverted. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Anyone brave enough to apply the changes? Matma Rex talk 21:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
I put in an edit request. At first, I tried to capture both of your bullet points above, but then I realized that your second edit concerned what appears to be default text in {{ American politics AE/Edit notice}} (see Template:Contentious topics/page restriction editnotice base). -- Jerome Frank Disciple 23:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Space4Time3Continuum2x So you're saying that Citation bot is blocking your "useful" edit of changing newspaper to work in the citation template, even for newspapers, because of the bytes it saves? [10] I also don't see anything at Wikipedia:citation templates that endorsees replacing newspaper with work, as you suggested here. If that were true, then why would the newspaper parameter exist at all? And, again, per {{ bots}}, have you filed a bug report with User:Citation bot?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Replacing "work" with longer alternative "newspaper" for WaPo in this long article is not a useful bot edit."Work" is one of the examples for citing newspaper articles in Wikipedia:Citation_templates: {{cite news | last = Andersen | first = David | last2 = Witter | first2 = Lameen | title = Former Marine, Go Daddy CEO... | work = Marine Corps News | date = 17 February 2006 | url = https://www.military.com/vet... | access-date = 6 June 2006}}. @ Mandruss: you rapped my knuckles years ago for replacing "work" with "newspaper". Would you care to weigh in? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:20, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
|work=
and its aliases all do exactly the same thing, so the aliases exist only to (1) add a degree of unnecessary complication to citation coding, as if editors needed more complication of anything, and (2) create more things for editors to argue about, as we see in this discussion. That's just poor system design in my opinion, and poor system design should be corrected. If I had my way, the aliases would be deprecated and the citation bot would be modified to convert all existing occurrences of the aliases to |work=
. ―
Mandruss
☎ 13:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
work
rather than the other parameters. I couldn't personally say why all of the citation templates have the other parameters—per
Help:Citation_Style_1#Work_and_publisher, work is just aliased to newspaper in {{
cite news}}. I don't understand the Lua programming language at all, so I can't really make heads or tails of
Module:Citation/CS1. I suppose we could ask at
User talk:Citation bot? My best guess is, honestly, that most users prefer the more specific parameter, for whatever reason?From {{ bots}}:
In particular, in the encyclopedia spaces:
- Avoid using the template as a blunt instrument
- Address the root problem with the bot owner or bot community
- Remove the template tag once the underlying problem has been resolved.
So your position it ... "but I don't LIKE that the newspaper parameter is longer, so I want to use the {{ bots}} template ... it's on YOU to address my reasoning with the bot owner"? Cool.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:33, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I saw several mistakes in the Donald Trump article. He did not implement family seperation. That was Obama. He did not tell people to attack the government and only one person died. A Trump supporter. To say it is believed that his rhetoric causes racism is very unprofessional. Right now you will find doctors that say eggs are good and doctors that say eggs are bad. this kind of opinionated rhetoric has no bussiness in an educational forum. I am sure there are more, but I stopped after reading this misinformation. It is obvious a person with an agenda wrote this and it is very unprofressional for your organization to allow just anything to be written. People look to yall for information. This article needs to be heavilyedited with feelings removed. Ceejaystafford ( talk) 15:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
[t]he policy of family separations was unprecedented in previous administrations", accurately reflects reliable sources discussing the subject. Whether we personally agree with those reliable sources isn't relevant.
@ Ppt91: I just wanted to give you a heads up that I reverted your edit. I don't find anything particularly objectionable about what you added, but that particular line was very recently the subject of a fairly extensive debate ( fairly extensive debate (started May 18, 2023). While I usually think "this was discussed once" is a bad reason for reverting, I think the recency of that discussion makes discussion here the more advisable path.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 15:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.This sounds much more neutral. Just to clarify, were you opposed to adding CARES Act and Operation Warp Speed?
This is particularly the case when one considers the implementation of CARES Act and Operation Warp Speed.Ah, I'm afraid that line of thinking concerns me, as it strikes me as an invitation to engage in WP:OR.
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." In other words, content that accurately reflects the significant viewpoints in reliable sources (in proportion to their presence in those sources) is neutral. Of course, separately but relatedly,
[b]iased statements of opinion can be presented only with in-text attribution( WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV), but the question is whether the description of Trump as slow is a "biased statement[] of opinion".
described as "slow". In any case, you mentioned earlier that you would be open to hear other editors, so why don't we let them express their opinions. Ppt91 talk 17:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
In any case, you mentioned earlier that you would be open to hear other editors, so why don't we let them express their opinions.
Many multiple of our
WP:BESTSOURCES say Trump slowed or delayed the response
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We already talk about CARES and warp speed in the article.meant that these two items should be mentioned. What makes them less worthy than mentioning the tax bill in the previous paragraph, for instance? You need to present a valid argument rather than exhibit flippant dismissal.
good revertshows your disregard for other opinions and is one of the reasons as to why a lot of editors are driven away from this article.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.Ppt91 talk 17:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
meant that these two items should be mentioned
This has nothing to do with FRINGE or FALSEBALANCE and everything to do with maintaining actual neutralityWP:FRINGE and WP:FALSEBALANCE are both key guidelines and key parts of the WP:NPOV policy, so I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
I'm not sure what you mean by thisthat these specific guidelines within NPOV are irrelevant to what I was talking about and cherry picked by you to fit the defense of
good revert
Do you have reason (e.g. sources) to believe that these two things are always mentioned in our BESTSOURCES when Trump's response is mentioned?Here's one example: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/25/819125708/watch-white-house-to-hold-coronavirus-briefing-amid-stimulus-bill-uncertainty as for Warp Speed, the reason why I think it is important is because it is closely tied to his response, showing how duplicitous he was by disagreeing with scientists and promoting conspiracy theories while at the same time claiming ownership of a vaccine project for political gai
Trump praised his administration for the Operation Warp Speed rollout of the vaccine and for helping save tens of millions of lives); https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/16/fauci-operation-warp-speed-trump-covid-response-00061990 (
Slaoui said the Trump administration should take credit for most of the manufacturing and distribution of the vaccines); https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2023/1/18/23560407/operation-warp-speed-pandemics-vaccines-covid-white-house-biden-trump (
One of the biggest accomplishments of the Trump administration — and yes, there were accomplishments — was Operation Warp Speed)
We currently cite non-op-eds that characterize Trump's/the Trump administration's response as slow. So, in determining whether or not that descriptor is "neutral" or a "biased statement of opinion", I think the first question has to be: Do you have reliable sources (and, ideally, non-op-eds) that dispute that characterization?
Trump was slow to address the spread of the disease, initially dismissing the threat and ignoring persistent public health warnings and calls for action from health officials within his administration and Secretary Azar. Throughout January and February he focused on economic and political considerations of the outbreak, and largely ignored the danger. By mid-March, most global financial markets had severely contracted in response to the emerging pandemic.
Do you have reason (e.g. sources) to believe that these two things are always mentioned in our BESTSOURCES when Trump's response is mentioned?for both CARES Act and Warp Speed in lead. Ppt91 talk 18:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
He and his businesses have been plaintiff or defendant in more than 4,000 state and federal legal actions, including six corporate bankruptcies.The former can still be disputed as the very term "slow" is ambiguous, even if used repeatedly by WP:RS; the latter is a statement of fact that cannot be disputed.
It is good practice, however, to include an inline citation to a reliable source to allow the reader to verify any fact that is not widely known).
I would argue that the word slow can only be subjective. Slow compared to what?... I'm not totally sure what the "compared to what?" Q has to do with objective vs. subjective. An evaluation can be relative and objective.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 11:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
I think this article maybe understates Trump's effect on the Supreme Court, which is only loosely discussed, yet which is arguably the longest-lasting effect of his presidency. (I'm happy to find sources if anyone thinks that analysis is OR.)
Right now the article mentions justices in three spots: First, in the lead:
He appointed 54 federal appellate judges and three U.S. Supreme Court justices.
Second, under social issues (in the presidency section):
Trump said in 2016 that he was committed to appointing "pro-life" justices who would "automatically" overturn Roe v. Wade.
There's also a judiciary section which mentions the names of the justices Trump appointed but which otherwise focuses on Trump's attacks on the judiciary.
Yet Trump's SCOTUS appointees have had (and will likely continue to have) a major impact on subjects discussed in this article. Roe v. Wade was overturned by Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization—a 6-3 decision that featured all three Trump appointees in the majority. Religious liberty was expanded and gay rights were diminished by Fulton v. City of Philadelphia. Religious liberties were expanded and COVID restrictions were weakened in Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo and Tandon v. Newsom. Environmental protections and the authority of regulatory agencies were diminished in West Virginia v. EPA; environmental protections were further restricted just today in Sackett v. Environmental Protection Agency. And, as several agencies have noted, the Supreme Court has recently agreed to revisit Chevron deference—potentially kneecapping federal agencies—when it granted cert in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo.
The judicial shift that occurred under Trump has prompted discussions of court reform and court packing—a subject which was last given serious consideration when FDR was president. Of course, I'm not saying each of these issues should be mentioned, and to be honest I'm not sure how this should all be addressed. At the very least, I think Dobbs should mentioned, in light of the reference to Roe that's already in the article, but, before I added that, I wanted to see what other editors thought of both that addition and perhaps others. (I'd also say that most content should go in the Judiciary section)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 18:33, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
@ PhotogenicScientist and Iamreallygoodatcheckers: How about this as a start (note, this would involve moving the Roe v. Wade comment from social issues to the judiciary section). I don't love the wording, but I think it works: It mentions the rightward shift and it mentions Roe and Dobbs, the former of which was previously discussed in another part of the article. (I think it's fair to, for now, single out Roe, the overturning of which was probably the most significant decision made in the new era of the Supreme Court.)
Trump appointed 226 Article III judges, including 54 to the courts of appeals and three to the Supreme Court: Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett. [1] Trump's Supreme Court nominees were noted as having politically shifted the Supreme Court to the right. [2] [3] In 2016, Trump had promised to nominate " pro-life" justices who would "automatically" overturn Roe v. Wade. [4] Roe was ultimately overturned a year after Trump left office in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization; each of Trump's nominees joined the majority in the 6-3 decision. [5]
References
-- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
The Supreme Court on Friday overturned Roe v. Wade, eliminating the constitutional right to abortion after almost 50 years .... It will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe. All three of his appointees were in the majority in the ruling.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 00:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Put it this way: Would there be an issue if one part of the article contained the third sentence and one part of the article contained the second? Of course not. So the question is "Can those two sentences, both about Roe v. Wade, be next eachother?" ... and I think the answer is "of course".
So, using The Week:
Trump appointed 226 Article III judges, including 54 to the courts of appeals and three to the Supreme Court: Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett. [1] Trump's Supreme Court nominees were noted as having politically shifted the Supreme Court to the right. [2] [3] In the 2016 campaign, Trump pledged that Roe v. Wade would be overturned "automatically" if he were elected and provided the opportunity to appoint two or three pro-life justices. In 2022, the Supreme Court overturned Roe in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization; all three of Trump's Supreme Court nominees voted with the majority. [4] [5]
References
I also included the New York Times story as a backup since it, as quoted above, also mentions Trump's vow to appoint pro-life justices and the fact that all three of the justices he nominated were in the majority.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 00:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
maybe reliable sources don't see it as Trump's legacy... Sorry, that word choice has thrown me, because I haven't used the term legacy ... except for when I was quoting the NYT, above:
It will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe. All three of his appointees were in the majority in the ruling.Did you think I was suggesting that text? (If so, my fault—I was using the tq template for both)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Trump said in 2016 that he was committed to appointing "pro-life" justices who would "automatically" overturn Roe v. Wade.) regarding this issue in the "social issues" subsection. But, again, for it to make it into the impact on Trump to judiciary more reliable sources are going to need to point to this as being particularly significant. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 22:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.If there is no original "conclusion" presented by the article, there is no SYNTH. As I see it, JFD's version clearly does not reach a conclusion; the sentences are completely separate (and both sourced), and there are no linking words like "and" or "thus", like there are in the UN example from the policy you quoted.
It will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe- that conclusion is cited, and not SYNTH. That conclusion becomes stronger with the addition of another source, like that from The Week.
In the 2016 campaign, Trump pledged that Roe v. Wade would be overturned "automatically" if he were elected and provided the opportunity to appoint two or three pro-life justices.It's apparent to me that Trump is/was (at least somewhat) personally invested in seeing Roe v. Wade overturned; I think the most efficient way to demonstrate that to all readers is if that sentence were sourced. Any articles from RS would do (prefer to use multiple, since people object to single-source characterizations of Trump) - but I found these two [18] [19]. PhotogenicScientist ( talk) 13:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
During a 2016 presidential debate, Trump predicted that Roe v. Wade (1973), which established abortion as a constitutional right, would be overturned "automatically" if he were elected and given the chance to "put another two or perhaps three" pro-life justices on the Supreme Court.The Times article, in relevant part, says:
Dobbs] will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe. All three of his appointees were in the majority in the ruling.Jerome Frank Disciple 14:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Space4Time3Continuum2x, PhotogenicScientist, and Iamreallygoodatcheckers:: Space has reverted the entire change. I don't want to run amok of 1R, but since both of you also agreed with the change (at least in part), would one of you mind reverting, for all the reasons we addressed above?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Trump's Supreme Court nominees were noted as having politically shifted the Supreme Court to the right."
[Trump's justices] will likely outlive Trump. They will likely ensure a conservative tilt for decades to come. And they will likely mark one of the most dramatic ideological turnarounds the court has seen in such a short timespan in generations." Politico
Trump’s Lasting Legacy: Conservative Supermajority on Supreme Court" (quotes Melissa Murray, who discusses the impact of a 6-3 rather than a 5-4 court) [22]
Trump's imprint on the Supreme Court and overall three-tier federal judiciary represents one of the most significant right-wing successes of his tenure, even as his instigation of the US Capitol assault and final destructive days appear to be leaving the most indelible mark of his legacy." CNN
The Court was already split along political and ideological lines before Trump. And its makeup already had been heavily influenced by the conservative agenda led by the Federalist Society, founded in the early 1980s. But the Trump presidency and the forceful influence of his three Supreme Court appointees propelled the judiciary into a new period of polarization." Nine Black Robes: Inside the Supreme Court's Drive to the Right and Its Historic Consequences by Joan Biskupic ( excerpt (with that quote)).
Trump campaigned in 2016 on eliminating Roe v. Wade, saying he would appoint “pro-life” judges who would overturn it. He made good on that promise by picking Justices Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett."
one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump".
are rarely reliable for statements of fact- typically, you can't use a source like this to assert some provable fact. But, with wording like "it has been noted that", I find the use of this source perfectly acceptable - it's an analysis published by an RS that, in combination with other sources, can be used to verify that, yes, this thing has been noted by reputable and reliable sources.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Space4Time3Continuum2x has continuously block/reverted people’s edits even when reliable sources are given. There are plenty of examples on the talk page for Trump and I just went through his past comments, in those comments Space4Time3Continuum2x was slandering right wing media while praising a far left broadcasting news station. That is completely unacceptable for any wiki editor to show bias like that and to continue to show the same kind of bias by editing/reverting other people edits even when they bring reliable sources. Space4Time3Continuum2x should not be anywhere near a political discussion page let alone have any power over what others can say. Space4Time3Continuum2x’s bias is unprecedented and unacceptable for a someone who is supposed to help bring facts. Instead Space4Time3Continuum2x continues to condescend, revert, and oppose any edits that don’t align with Space4Time3Continuum2x own beliefs. As Wikipedia try’s to become a more reliable and fact driven encyclopedia people like Space4Time3Continuum2x are holding wiki back by miles. There are plenty other editors that agree with these facts I’ve present about Space4Time3Continuum2x. Space4Time3Continuum2x should not have any power over political pages of any sort whatsoever. 2601:14E:80:46D0:F001:2AAF:92C2:A8E ( talk) 06:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I've responded on my talk page. Adding this for the benefit of any other IP address/es contemplating general unspecific allegations of violations of WP rules: listen very carefully, I shall say zis only once. I won’t respond, and I’ll delete any such allegations from my talk page. Specify the edit(s) and the rule(s), and I’ll take a look at my alleged misbehavior and rectify it, if necessary. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 155 | Archive 156 | Archive 157 | Archive 158 | Archive 159 | Archive 160 | → | Archive 165 |
Different versions of the text that we've had over the past several days:
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Here is what the article said a few days ago (for at least a year):
Here is what I changed it to yesterday summed as: while this is undoubtedly true, I'm removing it for two reasons: 1) I think it's a confusing negative-positive (naively when reading, I thought "was he promoting misinformation that tests weren't needed? That tests were needed?") and overall a relatively minor point that is clearly DUE for the body, but not the lead.
Here is what @ Space4Time3Continuum2x changed it to earlier today with summary Trump promoted hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and the internal application of u.v. light, and misinformation about the availability of tests and the need for testing:
Here is what I then tried to implement as a compromise with summary let's just go closer to what it said before. Since the unproven treatments are also misinformation. I'm putting what it said before "and promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the need for testing" but instead changing "need for testing" to "validity of diagnostic tests" since that is what he promoted misinformation about most prominently: [2]:
@ SPECIFICO then reverted that most recent change (not restoring STATUSQUO, but restoring STC's edit) with summary: : No, he promoted the drugs, not "information" about them. And he did not deny the validity of the tests - he said that the valid test results showing increased case numbers was only because there were increased numbers of tests being administered and called the reporting of that increase a "fake news media conspiracy"
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Let's find a compromise. The sources, in my opinion, are clear. Trump did promote misinformation about hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. See:
Sources directly stating that Trump promoted misinformation about unproven COVID-19 treatments
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So I don't see very much room for not describing Trump's promotion of HCQ and ivermectin as "promoting misinformation about unproven treatments." To avoid that because we personally think it isn't "misinformation" would be pro- WP:FRINGE original research.
The more pressing question is: How should we describe the misinformation re: testing? Here is how our sources describe it:
How sources describe Trump's misinformation re: testing
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So how do we summarize that in the lead? I would push for something other than "misinformation about...and the need for testing
". Perhaps:
— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 17:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation on unproven drugsvs.
promoted unproven drugs. I think it is true that he promoted misinformation about the drugs—specifically, by falsely overstating their efficacy. Surely false claims of effectiveness are a type of misinformation, no?Second, regarding testing. I do think the broad
misinformation ... about testingis okay. I don't think "misinformation about the need for testing" is accurate—(falsely) saying that the United States has high case counts because of the testing rates isn't quite the same as saying the testing rates are too high. But
misinformation about [...] COVID case countsis probably the most accurate of the potential statements.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 20:01, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and testing) is that one possible interpretation of the sentence is that the "
testing" is also "
unproven". — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:52, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about testing and unproven treatments?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 13:55, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
COVID-19 case countswould be the most accurate phrasing (although since we open the sentence with COVID, maybe just
case counts? I am glad that "
need for" seems to have been discarded, and "testing" alone is, I think, my second choice, but "case counts" seems more specific: As I understand them, our sources say that Trump falsely suggested that the U.S. case counts were higher than other countries because of our high testing rates. For me, that's most directly misinformation about case counts ... it's only indirectly misinformation about testing (i.e. a consequence of the testing). I do take Space's point that Trump cast doubt on the need for more tests ... though I'd also say that's indirectly a comment on testing itself.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:16, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about case counts and unproven treatments" — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 14:23, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about testing and unproven treatments. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials in his messaging, and...
Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 15:53, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about unproven treatment and downplayed the United States's high case count.? -- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:52, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments."
testing and reporting efforts. That would at least give a handwave to the concept of downplaying case counts/reporting specifically.
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, downplayed case count reports, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.That's about as long as I'd like to see a sentence on that, but we're also talking about a lot of hefty WP:FRINGE proponent stuff coming from this BLP that it's important to try to work in case counts. That's especially since downplaying case counts are a common fringe talking point in addition to other political pressure. As an outside commenter, I'd be content with the original version I responded to though too. KoA ( talk) 18:38, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
This little bit of lead text was extensively discussed before being placed in the lead. It was fine, and it was discussed by many well-informed editors at the time -- more than once, as the talk archives show. It was perfectly fine. Like everything else on this site, it was not perfect. So it was tweaked a few times to a slight improvement, then we considered the remote possibility that the improved version might in some rare instance be misconstrued to say something ridiculous. So SpaceX addressed that concern with another little tweak.
Now, many posts later, after SpaceX's fix seemed to have been accepted as a compromise solution, we find this thread engaged in lengthening this little bit, making it IMO less clear and unambiguous. I think we should use the text SpaceX devised and be done. -- Apologies to Jayron, KoA and others who've been drawn in. I'm stumped as to what this has to do with FRINGE. Lies ≠ Fringe. It's been a longstanding goal on this page to shorten it, not lengthen it.
SPECIFICO
talk 19:51, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
I'm stumped as to what this has to do with FRINGE. Lies ≠ Fringe.Lies aren't always WP:FRINGE, but fringe is usually dealing with various types of lies, especially in science/medical topics. Part of the reason I did decide to comment here as someone uninvolved is that Shibbolethink's proposal brought the text more in line with how we typically describe fringe proponents that do pretty major crackpot things. When a BLP does a lot of fringey things, especially more severe, the list in the lead typically gets more expansive, and their proposal was giving more appropriate WP:WEIGHT that FRINGE deals with a lot while also keeping things concise for the amount of ground it has to cover. KoA ( talk) 13:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Here are multiple peer-reviewed scholarly sources which refer to Trump's promotion of misinformation supporting my preferred version above:
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These sources (except where indicated) are scholarly, peer-reviewed secondary articles, from reputable topic-relevant journals.
The sources you've cited are from The Lancet and the JMIR are also scholarly, but they are not all secondary publications. For example, the JMIR piece (which you refer to as an "NIH publication") is an observational study and therefore WP:PRIMARY. It is not published by the NIH. It is authored by two scientists from McGill and York University in Canada, reviewed by academics from Florida State University and Salahaddin University-Erbil in Kurdistan, edited by an academic from the University of Victoria in Canada, and published by a journal based in Toronto, Canada. The Lancet piece is worth considering, but it, like the JMIR, does not actually contradict the claim that Trump's promotion of HCQ etc is "misinformation". It simply does not use the term "misinformation" to refer to anything related. Certainly worth considering, but does not outweigh the large amount of relevant published scholarship which does use that term, shown above.— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 20:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
When you search for references, as you have done above, the search query will determine the result. If one is testing the hypothesis that "misinformation" is the dominant issue in RS coverage, such a search must not include "information", "misinformation" or similar.
Trump hydroxychloroquine" here. On The Wikipedia Library and Gale Academic OneFile. Please don't assume how I collect my source reviews in the future and consider asking instead. Thanks! — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 13:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
Stable version:
promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the need for testing.
Proposed versions:
1. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments. (Shibbolethink)
UTC 18.53, 17 May
2. promoted unproven treatments and misinformation about testing. (Space4T)
UTC 11.27 18 May
3. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the validity of diagnostic testing. (Shibbolethink)
UTC 15.04 18 May
4. promoted unproven treatments and misinformation about testing. (Specifico)
UTC 16.21 18 May
5. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and testing. (Space4T)
6. promoted misinformation about testing and unproven treatments. (Jerome Francis Disciple, Space4T)
7. misinformation about unproven treatments and COVID-19 case counts. (Shibbolethink)
8. promoted misinformation about statistics and unproven treatments. (Shibbolethink)
9. promoted misinformation about case counts and unproven treatments. (Shibbolethink)
Shibbolethink then cited an impasse between versions 6 and 9, notified two editors who had been involved in the thread (Jayron32 and Cessaune) and WP:FTN (we were neither advocating for, promoting, nor discussing fringe theories). Pinging DFlhb, the—I presume—independent uninvolved editor mentioned in the edit summary in the main space (see link below) who may not have followed the entire "process" from the start.
10. promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and tried to use political pressure to interfere with testing efforts. (Jayron32)
11. used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments. {Shibbolethink)
12. testing and reporting efforts. (KoA (editor summoned from FTN))
Shibbolethink then
closed the discussion and two minutes later
edited the main page, saying that of a clear consensus of many multiple independent uninvolved editors on the talk page, this is the most well-liked version
. I counted a total of 8, and multiple editors supported multiple versions of the many proposed versions. If there are any new angles and issues to be considered, they should have been brought up in the discussion, and nobody argued that that would have been a bad thing, but thanks for the lecture. Duly
noted that you tried to implement [] a comprise
and want to find a comprise
while other editors change and revert.
Space4Time3Continuum2x
(talk) 14:23, 20 May 2023 (UTC) Added UTC times and dates for numbered items that indicate main space edits.
Space4Time3Continuum2x
(talk) 10:03, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Shibbolethink then closed the discussion
Pinging DFlhb, the—I presume—independent uninvolved editor mentioned in the edit summary in the main spaceNo, I actually meant @ Jayron32 and @ KoA. DFHib has commented on this talk page in all these various disputes recently, so I wasn't thinking of them as "uninvolved" though they were uninvolved in this particular section, and I do appreciate their input and think their comments in this section are insightful and contribute to any building consensus we have going here.I implemented the version with the most uninvolved editors in support, which arose out of discussion, originally proposed by @ Jayron32. This is perfectly in line with WP:BRD, which specifically permits "
attempt[ing] a new edit that reasonably addresses some aspect of those concerns. You can try this even if the discussion has not reached an explicit conclusion, but be sure to avoid engaging in any kind of edit warring." And yes, I and several other users proposed many different possible versions before other users came along and suggested versions which solved a lot of those problems quite handily. I am in favor of any of versions 10, 11, or 12, which I think are the best proposed so far. Roughly, I would support 12>11>10>>>>>9>>8>>>>all the others.Why is all of this being brought up as some sort of malicious act? (at least that is what I get out of this comment, let me know if I'm misunderstanding the intent. "thanks for the lecture" and advocating against involving WP:FTN are what threw me that direction). Continued massaging of versions and editing back and forth is a normal part of discussion in situations like this. I have broken no policies or guidelines. I am honestly more confused by this comment than anything. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 15:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
Trump didn't spread misinformation about testing per se, what he did was try to stop testing from happening because the results were politically inconvenient for him"; KoA: "
that looks about as accurate as I can think of and shouldn't realistically be a point of dispute for anyone"). KoA also proposed a variation but reiterated he would be okay with Shibbolethink's version. SPECIFICO opposed the proposed version, saying it was "less clear and unambiguous" (emphasis added) and also objected to the increases length. SPECIFICO also proposed an the sentence should be refocused on that "
Trump thought the shutdown would be bad for him politically and deployed numerous strategies to deny the seriousness of the pandemic, resulting in hundreds of thousands of unnecessary American Deaths".
Let's find a compromise. The sources, in my opinion, are clear. Trump did promote misinformation about hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin. See: [hatted list of sources] So I don't see very much room for not describing Trump's promotion of HCQ and ivermectin as "promoting misinformation about unproven treatments." To avoid that because we personally think it isn't "misinformation" would be pro- WP:FRINGE original research.[[File:|25px|link=]]
a clear consensus of many multiple independent uninvolved editors on the talk page, this is the most well-liked version, and two minutes later edited the main page with their preferred version while editors were still responding. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 10:27, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Per my statement above, I think this thread is deep down the rabbit hole. But if we are to continue working on this lead content, let's think about the most important points. They are that Trump thought the shutdown would be bad for him politically and deployed numerous strategies to deny the seriousness of the pandemic, resulting in hundreds of thousands of unnecessary American Deaths. That's a nice summary more important than whether the cure du jour was Bleach, Ivermectin, Hydroxi-whatnot, or UV enemas -- or whether he tried to convince his base than nobody was really getting sick. SPECIFICO talk 20:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, [3] and interfered with government agencies' response. [4]DFlhb ( talk) 21:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
reacted slowly, many countries did; it's highly non-specific, far from the most salient point about Trump's response
ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials: implies a less active role than
interfered(my version). Also implies he only verbally contradicted them, rather than interfering with their actions.
used political pressure to interfere with testing effortstrue but too specific. My version shows he interfered with more than just testing.
spread misinformation about unproven treatmentsis about Trump causing people to choose ineffective treatments after they catch it. My version is more comprehensive:
downplayed the risk of the virusincreased their risk of catching it in the first place. More damaging, since the amount of people that took these treatments is quite a small subset of all the people who took excessive risks and failed to comply with anti-COVID measures.
politicizing the COVID-19 pandemicwas the single most salient point about Trump's response, since it contributed to every other problem: widespread lack of adherence to measures like masks among Republicans, or causing Republicans and even some Democrats to be skeptical of "his" vaccines (see the first Fauci quote in the first paper I linked).
downplayed the risk of the virus, also highly salient. This reduced compliance, which is the biggest factor in the effectiveness of a pandemic response. Also see rationale in point 4 above.
interfered with government agencies' response: a more concise and informative way to state points 2 and 3 of the current version. Also its implicit subtext (
interfered... for electoral/political reasons) is more obvious than in the current version.
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, promoted unproven treatments, and interfered with government agencies' responses.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
the most notable part of Trump's misinformation legacy(Shibbolethink): it doesn't come close to the Big Lie (it's in the name! Many lies, but only one "Big Lie"). Let's take a look at RS about his lies, and see what prominence they give to each: WaPo: they mention Trump's claim that the
pandemic would disappear “like a miracle”(covered by "politicized, downplayed") in the 3rd paragraph, and mention the cures in the same sentence as two other lies in the 12th paragraph. NBC mentions his downplaying the risks in the 4th paragraph, the 10th through 13th, interference in the 14th, then back to downplaying in the 15th to 18th paragraphs. Unproven treatments are down in the 19th. CNN mentions COVID risk-downplaying as the "most dangerous lie" of Trump's entire presidency; doesn't mention unproven treatments.
Dueness arguments are best supported by sources that summarize other sources, which I've presented
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, and interfered with government agencies' response.
He contributed to politicizing the COVID-19 pandemic, downplayed the risk of the virus, promoted unproven treatments, and interfered with government agencies' responses.
(Shibbolethink): it doesn't come close to the Big Lie (it's in the name! Many lies, but only one "Big Lie"). Let's
Instead of subjectively (without sources) deciding which lies are notable enough to highlightThis is not what I'm doing. I provided numerous sources above, but here is another source review for good measure:
the ‘Single Largest Driver’ of Coronavirus Misinformation". It says, right there in the article:
But by far the most prevalent topic of misinformation was “miracle cures,” including Mr. Trump’s promotion of anti-malarial drugs and disinfectants as potential treatments for Covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus. That accounted for more misinformation than the other 10 topics combined, the researchers reported.
biggest lies he’s told as the nation endures a public-health and economic calamity". HCQ (and other unproven treatments) is part of 3 entries out of 54. In comparison, no single idea or concept has that many "lies". "Vaccines" are the subject of 2. Masks, 2. Testing being the cause of increased cases, 2 entries. Unproven treatments are, from this article, clearly extremely important as the single most often mentioned controversy (by a plurality), and therefore clearly WP:DUE for the lead.
The president has questioned the efficacy of masks, hyped unproven treatments, and continues to promise a vaccine before experts and the drug companies themselves believe it will actually be ready.. it then prominently dedicates 5 paragraphs and the only graph in the article, to content about Hydroxychloroquine and other "miracle cures".
downplaying the virus and promoting unapproved drugsas the two things Trump did.
That is a biased search queryCompletely disagree. We are discussing what topics to include in a sentence about Trump's failed response. If misinformation isn't included, then we aren't doing our jobs. But I did the search anyway, to get us closer to a compromise whenever possible.
Trump COVID", here are the unbiased results from the first page:
From that point on, throughout the summer, and until election day, Trump would frame the COVID‐19 crisis as a fading problem that was soon going away; blame China for failing to stop the “China virus;” tout false remedies such as hydroxychloroquine; undermine state mitigation measures and encourage protestors by tweeting “Liberate Minnesota,” “Liberate Michigan,” and “Liberate Virginia;” question the need for wearing masks; make strange statements such as suggesting COVID‐19 could be treated by injecting disinfectants; and tell the public and his officials that he wanted testing to be slowed down because more testing would find more cases(unproven treatments are represented by two entries in the list, compared to the testing issue and downplaying severity, which each occupy one entry.)
Is the president receiving any other COVID-19 treatments? The statement released on 2 October by the president's physician said that in addition to the antibodies, Trump "has been taking zinc, vitamin D, famotidine, melatonin and a daily aspirin." That wording leaves unclear whether he was taking those substances before his diagnosed infection. Notably, the statement does not indicate whether Trump was or is taking hydroxychloroquine, the antimalarial he controversially pushed as a COVID-19 treatment.
He has touted the use of the drug, hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19, despite the lack of evidence of its effectiveness, warnings of potential harms, and even after federal COVID-19 treatment guidelines recommended against its use. He suggested that applying ultraviolet light to or inside the body, or injecting disinfectant, could combat coronavirus.
His administration has undermined, suppressed and censored government scientists working to study the virus and reduce its harm. And his appointees have made political tools out of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), ordering the agencies to put out inaccurate information, issue ill-advised health guidance, and tout unproven and potentially harmful treatments for COVID-19.
Documents obtained by the committee also show that Trump political appointees tried to pressure the Food and Drug Administration to authorize ineffective Covid treatments the president was pushing, like hydroxychloroquine and convalescent plasma, over the objections of career scientists, the report said.
As a library, NLM provides access to scientific literature. Inclusion in an NLM database does not imply endorsement of, or agreement with, the contents by NLM or the National Institutes of Health.The Lancet article you've linked is not WP:TERTIARY. It is itself relying on primary sources (e.g. citations 15-19, 21, 24, 25, 28, 32, 35, 37-41, etc etc.) As a result, it is secondary. It is likely reliable as a statement from that commission, but it does not appear to be peer- or editorially-reviewed, or represent the position of the Lancet itself. Similar to how we have dealt with the Lancet covid origins commission. These commissions are heavily biased by the POVs of the commission members, and do not undergo the formal review that a society position statement or policy document typically does. It rises and falls totally on the credentials and care of its authors. And, like many secondary publications, we have no indication of how much it represents the overall state/assessment of the field. It also appears to be focused on "public policy" which, of course, would not include tweets about hydroxychloroquine as these do not represent any formal policy mechanism. The report also does not mention Trump's statements re: testing which I would argue (and you have argued) is DUE for the lead. You have proposed the Columbia report, which I agree is very useful. But so is the Cornell report I linked above. We have no reason to prefer Columbia's over Cornell's for these purposes.As I said, I think this discussion has run its course, and I will not be responding any further, unless requested. Have a nice day! — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:59, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
Trump thought the shutdown would be bad for him politically and deployed numerous strategies to deny the seriousness of the pandemic, resulting in hundreds of thousands of unnecessary American Deaths.citation needed Anon0098 ( talk) 05:32, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments." That sentence is true, reflects the text in the body, and lacks any obvious problems with writing that makes it hard to understand. In short it's fine as it is. Could it be made better, well, no, but not because of "better" not existing, but because "made" is not possible. More plainly: There's no way this group of editors, working in this manner, is going to do anything that's going to make any reasonable improvements on a single sentence which lacks any major problems in content, tone, appropriateness, or grammar. Let it drop is my suggestion. It's good enough as it is, and it feels like there are bigger fish to fry. -- Jayron 32 18:30, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
I have made some additions to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, so don't forget to check and improve it. -- Valjean ( talk) ( PING me) 16:05, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
[Y]our complaint was closed because it was problematic for one or more of the following reasons:....") I have two broad issues with the additions. First, I agree with Mandruss that there's a length issue. Second, I find a few of the specific causes spelled out problematic.
It revealed you mistakenly believed that any bias was coming from editors, rather than being an accurate documentation of the bias found in those sources."? That's presented as a reason which—by itself—could warrant closure. But ... what? So the editors on this page are incapable of accidentally introducing bias, and a user who suggests that they have introduced bias gets their discussion closed? To be clear, I realize that's not what @ Valjean meant to say, but that was the literal text.
It revealed you do not know how to vet sources for reliability.... An editor that proposes a source—even a poor one—is far from the type of bad faith / NOTHERE / forum-seeking editor that I understood the message and the policy to apply to. Finally, I think the phrasing here is a bit problematic:
It revealed you did not realize that our sources and content are allowed to be biased, as long as that bias is from the reliable sources we use.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 17:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
FWIW, I'd actually suggest going in the opposite direction and shortening the text. This edit would cut about 25 words.
Alternative
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You have been pointed to this page because you have claimed that the Donald Trump article is, in some way, biased. Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires that articles "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources". This is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia—a fundamental principle central to the function of this website. But a general, non-specific claim of bias rarely yields a productive discussion and will likely result in a premature closure of the discussion. At the general level, since reliable sources are widely critical of Trump, this article reflects that. Still, you are welcome to make or suggest specific, policy-backed improvements; just be sure that any text you suggest is supported by reliable sources—see WP:RS/P for a list of sources considered by the Wikipedia community to be reliable. If your edit to the article is reverted, you may choose to head to the talk page and discuss your proposal there—doing so will likely initiate a discussion that may yield a consensus for a change. Remember to always assume good faith, demonstrate good faith, and be civil. Some of the resources available to you are:
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Just my two cents.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 18:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under the post-presidency tab and indictments section, it says Donald Trump was indicted by a Miami Federal Court on May 8. Per the source provided, it was June 8. Easy fix. Thanks. Rane43 ( talk) 15:19, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
https://chat.openai.com/share/71bc1461-7ad3-4997-977c-285378928c21
Refer to the above link for the conversation using GPT-4.
This article needs a rewrite, and Wikipedia will be seen as an encyclopedia with a clear left-wing bias until this happens. -- zaiisao ( talk | contribs) 04:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request to
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Please add the fact that Trump pleads not guilty to 37-count indictment in classified documents case. Hondabenle ( talk) 07:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
This
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Falsely accused should just say accused and remove falsely to remain bias. 2600:1012:B140:A98C:55D4:286E:4D0C:1E5C ( talk) 23:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I was wondering what you think of adding his campaign website alongside his official website. We have President Biden’s campaign website in the infobox and I think it would be good to add the website. Interstellarity ( talk) 11:54, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Before making another faux pas such as posting an archive link for a story from The Washington Post, I'll ask if it's okay to replace the link to the Post story about Trump's ranking with a link to an alternate source, perhaps one of the following:
Fabrickator ( talk) 07:44, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
The lede of the article contains the following sentence: “He won the 2016 presidential election as the Republican nominee against Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton despite losing the popular vote.”
In the United States, winning the electoral college vote while losing the popular vote is a perfectly legitimate way in which to win. The use of the word “despite” seems to me to be suggesting otherwise; as though Trump should not have won because of his loss in the popular vote. Obviously this was not the editor’s intention—at least not consciously or deliberately—but my interpretation of it remains the same. This is exacerbated by the inclusion of supplementary information about the electoral college only in an explanatory footnote, which could seriously mislead or confuse readers who do not open it. I propose this sentence be rephrased.
I also take issue with the inclusion of an unlinked “Republican” and an unlinked “Democratic”. These are not preceded by any other mentions of the major U.S. parties and could perfectly well be unclear to non-U.S. readers. I propose they be changed to “ Republican Party” and “ Democratic Party”.
Asperthrow ( talk) 23:01, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
despite" is a fair term there. I disagree that it casts doubts on the legitimacy of the election. Rather, it's an acknowledgment that it's relatively rare for electoral college victors to not win at least a plurality of the popular vote. We have a similar passage for the last person to pull it off: George W. Bush:
In the 2000 United States presidential election, he defeated Democratic incumbent vice president Al Gore, despite losing the popular vote after a narrow and contested win that involved a Supreme Court decision to stop a recount in Florida.
Trump received nearly 2.9 million fewer popular votes than Clinton, which made him the fifth person to be elected president while losing the popular vote." And, again, we use the same word choice for the GWBush article.
I support putting in "while" over despite. Maybe another suggestion could "while at the same time..." Don't know if that's better but I support some sort of change. The Capitalist forever ( talk) 00:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
Okay! Per unanimity here, I'll go ahead and make the change—I'm going to omit the "to her" at the end of the popular vote; since no other candidates are mentioned, I think it's implied. I'm also going to use "while" instead of "while at the same time" (since I think that's redundant)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 01:06, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Jerome Frank Disciple:, don't worry about my suggestion. Just an idea. The Capitalist forever ( talk) 01:13, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
This
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Add this to the home page.
In June 2023, he was indicted for a second time, relating to the holdings of classified government documents. SergioR3318 ( talk) 00:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
He was just indicted again on I believe 7 accounts, any updates to this would be good Los Pobre ( talk) 00:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
@
Space4Time3Continuum2x and
TheThomanski: I agree with TheThomonanski's partial revert of Space
here. (
Space's edit). I would have actually supported a full revert. Before the federal indictment, the fact that Trump was the first president indicted on criminal charges was in the lead. After the indictment, it was changed to first "indicated on criminal charges" with a link to the state prosecution (and details about the fraud charges) and first "indicted on federal charges" with a link to the federal prosecution page. I
changed it to: In 2023, Trump became the first former U.S. president to face state criminal charges and the first to face federal criminal charges. In March, a Manhattan grand jury
indicted him on 34 felony counts of fraud, and he was
federally indicted in June in relation to his handling of classified documents..
The first sentence was removed because it was a "stat" and "developing story", neither of which I consider legitimate points.--
Jerome Frank Disciple 12:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Over at phab:T337071, Matma Rex said:
(By the way, just look at all this text in the screenshots… ain't nobody reading all that. I had to resize the browser just to show the two messages I am describing. The notice about old revisions is not the only problem here. As long as there is just so much useless text, people will not read it, and will miss the important messages, even if – especially if! – we make them even bigger.)
He's got a point. In VisualEditor, the 2017 text editor, or in any editor on a narrow screen, this looks roughly like:
Notice about sources
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Take extra care to use high-quality sources. Material about living persons should not be added when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism; see more information on sources. Never use self-published sources about a living person unless written or published by the subject; see WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPSELFPUB. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help, see this page. |
You are subject to additional rules when you edit this page. If you do not follow these rules, you may be blocked from editing:
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Please review current established consensus before editing this article, especially the lead section. Changes against established consensus without prior discussion can be reverted on sight. |
Is there anything that can be trimmed a bit here? Suffusion of Yellow ( talk) 00:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
is the JavaScript for all users. Any changes to this page should first be proposed on its talk page or the Village pump.
uselessto me as they were about to edit an old revision of the page. That's an important message, IMO, just like the following notices.
You are editing an old revision of this page. If you publish it, any changes made since then will be removed. You may wish to edit the current revision insteadwas the important message getting lost in the crowd. The solution to this problem seems easy to me: replace editing for old revisions with viewing and copying only. One less banner to ignore for editors who don't/won't read the banners. If someone inadvertently edits an old revision, the edit can be reverted, and on this page it will be noticed and reverted. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
Anyone brave enough to apply the changes? Matma Rex talk 21:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
I put in an edit request. At first, I tried to capture both of your bullet points above, but then I realized that your second edit concerned what appears to be default text in {{ American politics AE/Edit notice}} (see Template:Contentious topics/page restriction editnotice base). -- Jerome Frank Disciple 23:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Space4Time3Continuum2x So you're saying that Citation bot is blocking your "useful" edit of changing newspaper to work in the citation template, even for newspapers, because of the bytes it saves? [10] I also don't see anything at Wikipedia:citation templates that endorsees replacing newspaper with work, as you suggested here. If that were true, then why would the newspaper parameter exist at all? And, again, per {{ bots}}, have you filed a bug report with User:Citation bot?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Replacing "work" with longer alternative "newspaper" for WaPo in this long article is not a useful bot edit."Work" is one of the examples for citing newspaper articles in Wikipedia:Citation_templates: {{cite news | last = Andersen | first = David | last2 = Witter | first2 = Lameen | title = Former Marine, Go Daddy CEO... | work = Marine Corps News | date = 17 February 2006 | url = https://www.military.com/vet... | access-date = 6 June 2006}}. @ Mandruss: you rapped my knuckles years ago for replacing "work" with "newspaper". Would you care to weigh in? Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 08:20, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
|work=
and its aliases all do exactly the same thing, so the aliases exist only to (1) add a degree of unnecessary complication to citation coding, as if editors needed more complication of anything, and (2) create more things for editors to argue about, as we see in this discussion. That's just poor system design in my opinion, and poor system design should be corrected. If I had my way, the aliases would be deprecated and the citation bot would be modified to convert all existing occurrences of the aliases to |work=
. ―
Mandruss
☎ 13:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
work
rather than the other parameters. I couldn't personally say why all of the citation templates have the other parameters—per
Help:Citation_Style_1#Work_and_publisher, work is just aliased to newspaper in {{
cite news}}. I don't understand the Lua programming language at all, so I can't really make heads or tails of
Module:Citation/CS1. I suppose we could ask at
User talk:Citation bot? My best guess is, honestly, that most users prefer the more specific parameter, for whatever reason?From {{ bots}}:
In particular, in the encyclopedia spaces:
- Avoid using the template as a blunt instrument
- Address the root problem with the bot owner or bot community
- Remove the template tag once the underlying problem has been resolved.
So your position it ... "but I don't LIKE that the newspaper parameter is longer, so I want to use the {{ bots}} template ... it's on YOU to address my reasoning with the bot owner"? Cool.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:33, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
This
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I saw several mistakes in the Donald Trump article. He did not implement family seperation. That was Obama. He did not tell people to attack the government and only one person died. A Trump supporter. To say it is believed that his rhetoric causes racism is very unprofessional. Right now you will find doctors that say eggs are good and doctors that say eggs are bad. this kind of opinionated rhetoric has no bussiness in an educational forum. I am sure there are more, but I stopped after reading this misinformation. It is obvious a person with an agenda wrote this and it is very unprofressional for your organization to allow just anything to be written. People look to yall for information. This article needs to be heavilyedited with feelings removed. Ceejaystafford ( talk) 15:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
[t]he policy of family separations was unprecedented in previous administrations", accurately reflects reliable sources discussing the subject. Whether we personally agree with those reliable sources isn't relevant.
@ Ppt91: I just wanted to give you a heads up that I reverted your edit. I don't find anything particularly objectionable about what you added, but that particular line was very recently the subject of a fairly extensive debate ( fairly extensive debate (started May 18, 2023). While I usually think "this was discussed once" is a bad reason for reverting, I think the recency of that discussion makes discussion here the more advisable path.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 15:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.This sounds much more neutral. Just to clarify, were you opposed to adding CARES Act and Operation Warp Speed?
This is particularly the case when one considers the implementation of CARES Act and Operation Warp Speed.Ah, I'm afraid that line of thinking concerns me, as it strikes me as an invitation to engage in WP:OR.
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." In other words, content that accurately reflects the significant viewpoints in reliable sources (in proportion to their presence in those sources) is neutral. Of course, separately but relatedly,
[b]iased statements of opinion can be presented only with in-text attribution( WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV), but the question is whether the description of Trump as slow is a "biased statement[] of opinion".
described as "slow". In any case, you mentioned earlier that you would be open to hear other editors, so why don't we let them express their opinions. Ppt91 talk 17:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
In any case, you mentioned earlier that you would be open to hear other editors, so why don't we let them express their opinions.
Many multiple of our
WP:BESTSOURCES say Trump slowed or delayed the response
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We already talk about CARES and warp speed in the article.meant that these two items should be mentioned. What makes them less worthy than mentioning the tax bill in the previous paragraph, for instance? You need to present a valid argument rather than exhibit flippant dismissal.
good revertshows your disregard for other opinions and is one of the reasons as to why a lot of editors are driven away from this article.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.Ppt91 talk 17:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
meant that these two items should be mentioned
This has nothing to do with FRINGE or FALSEBALANCE and everything to do with maintaining actual neutralityWP:FRINGE and WP:FALSEBALANCE are both key guidelines and key parts of the WP:NPOV policy, so I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic faced criticism, as he frequently ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.
I'm not sure what you mean by thisthat these specific guidelines within NPOV are irrelevant to what I was talking about and cherry picked by you to fit the defense of
good revert
Do you have reason (e.g. sources) to believe that these two things are always mentioned in our BESTSOURCES when Trump's response is mentioned?Here's one example: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/25/819125708/watch-white-house-to-hold-coronavirus-briefing-amid-stimulus-bill-uncertainty as for Warp Speed, the reason why I think it is important is because it is closely tied to his response, showing how duplicitous he was by disagreeing with scientists and promoting conspiracy theories while at the same time claiming ownership of a vaccine project for political gai
Trump praised his administration for the Operation Warp Speed rollout of the vaccine and for helping save tens of millions of lives); https://www.politico.com/news/2022/10/16/fauci-operation-warp-speed-trump-covid-response-00061990 (
Slaoui said the Trump administration should take credit for most of the manufacturing and distribution of the vaccines); https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2023/1/18/23560407/operation-warp-speed-pandemics-vaccines-covid-white-house-biden-trump (
One of the biggest accomplishments of the Trump administration — and yes, there were accomplishments — was Operation Warp Speed)
We currently cite non-op-eds that characterize Trump's/the Trump administration's response as slow. So, in determining whether or not that descriptor is "neutral" or a "biased statement of opinion", I think the first question has to be: Do you have reliable sources (and, ideally, non-op-eds) that dispute that characterization?
Trump was slow to address the spread of the disease, initially dismissing the threat and ignoring persistent public health warnings and calls for action from health officials within his administration and Secretary Azar. Throughout January and February he focused on economic and political considerations of the outbreak, and largely ignored the danger. By mid-March, most global financial markets had severely contracted in response to the emerging pandemic.
Do you have reason (e.g. sources) to believe that these two things are always mentioned in our BESTSOURCES when Trump's response is mentioned?for both CARES Act and Warp Speed in lead. Ppt91 talk 18:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
He and his businesses have been plaintiff or defendant in more than 4,000 state and federal legal actions, including six corporate bankruptcies.The former can still be disputed as the very term "slow" is ambiguous, even if used repeatedly by WP:RS; the latter is a statement of fact that cannot be disputed.
It is good practice, however, to include an inline citation to a reliable source to allow the reader to verify any fact that is not widely known).
I would argue that the word slow can only be subjective. Slow compared to what?... I'm not totally sure what the "compared to what?" Q has to do with objective vs. subjective. An evaluation can be relative and objective.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 11:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
I think this article maybe understates Trump's effect on the Supreme Court, which is only loosely discussed, yet which is arguably the longest-lasting effect of his presidency. (I'm happy to find sources if anyone thinks that analysis is OR.)
Right now the article mentions justices in three spots: First, in the lead:
He appointed 54 federal appellate judges and three U.S. Supreme Court justices.
Second, under social issues (in the presidency section):
Trump said in 2016 that he was committed to appointing "pro-life" justices who would "automatically" overturn Roe v. Wade.
There's also a judiciary section which mentions the names of the justices Trump appointed but which otherwise focuses on Trump's attacks on the judiciary.
Yet Trump's SCOTUS appointees have had (and will likely continue to have) a major impact on subjects discussed in this article. Roe v. Wade was overturned by Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization—a 6-3 decision that featured all three Trump appointees in the majority. Religious liberty was expanded and gay rights were diminished by Fulton v. City of Philadelphia. Religious liberties were expanded and COVID restrictions were weakened in Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo and Tandon v. Newsom. Environmental protections and the authority of regulatory agencies were diminished in West Virginia v. EPA; environmental protections were further restricted just today in Sackett v. Environmental Protection Agency. And, as several agencies have noted, the Supreme Court has recently agreed to revisit Chevron deference—potentially kneecapping federal agencies—when it granted cert in Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo.
The judicial shift that occurred under Trump has prompted discussions of court reform and court packing—a subject which was last given serious consideration when FDR was president. Of course, I'm not saying each of these issues should be mentioned, and to be honest I'm not sure how this should all be addressed. At the very least, I think Dobbs should mentioned, in light of the reference to Roe that's already in the article, but, before I added that, I wanted to see what other editors thought of both that addition and perhaps others. (I'd also say that most content should go in the Judiciary section)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 18:33, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
@ PhotogenicScientist and Iamreallygoodatcheckers: How about this as a start (note, this would involve moving the Roe v. Wade comment from social issues to the judiciary section). I don't love the wording, but I think it works: It mentions the rightward shift and it mentions Roe and Dobbs, the former of which was previously discussed in another part of the article. (I think it's fair to, for now, single out Roe, the overturning of which was probably the most significant decision made in the new era of the Supreme Court.)
Trump appointed 226 Article III judges, including 54 to the courts of appeals and three to the Supreme Court: Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett. [1] Trump's Supreme Court nominees were noted as having politically shifted the Supreme Court to the right. [2] [3] In 2016, Trump had promised to nominate " pro-life" justices who would "automatically" overturn Roe v. Wade. [4] Roe was ultimately overturned a year after Trump left office in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization; each of Trump's nominees joined the majority in the 6-3 decision. [5]
References
-- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
The Supreme Court on Friday overturned Roe v. Wade, eliminating the constitutional right to abortion after almost 50 years .... It will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe. All three of his appointees were in the majority in the ruling.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 00:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Put it this way: Would there be an issue if one part of the article contained the third sentence and one part of the article contained the second? Of course not. So the question is "Can those two sentences, both about Roe v. Wade, be next eachother?" ... and I think the answer is "of course".
So, using The Week:
Trump appointed 226 Article III judges, including 54 to the courts of appeals and three to the Supreme Court: Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett. [1] Trump's Supreme Court nominees were noted as having politically shifted the Supreme Court to the right. [2] [3] In the 2016 campaign, Trump pledged that Roe v. Wade would be overturned "automatically" if he were elected and provided the opportunity to appoint two or three pro-life justices. In 2022, the Supreme Court overturned Roe in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization; all three of Trump's Supreme Court nominees voted with the majority. [4] [5]
References
I also included the New York Times story as a backup since it, as quoted above, also mentions Trump's vow to appoint pro-life justices and the fact that all three of the justices he nominated were in the majority.-- Jerome Frank Disciple 00:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
maybe reliable sources don't see it as Trump's legacy... Sorry, that word choice has thrown me, because I haven't used the term legacy ... except for when I was quoting the NYT, above:
It will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe. All three of his appointees were in the majority in the ruling.Did you think I was suggesting that text? (If so, my fault—I was using the tq template for both)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 14:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Trump said in 2016 that he was committed to appointing "pro-life" justices who would "automatically" overturn Roe v. Wade.) regarding this issue in the "social issues" subsection. But, again, for it to make it into the impact on Trump to judiciary more reliable sources are going to need to point to this as being particularly significant. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 22:08, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.If there is no original "conclusion" presented by the article, there is no SYNTH. As I see it, JFD's version clearly does not reach a conclusion; the sentences are completely separate (and both sourced), and there are no linking words like "and" or "thus", like there are in the UN example from the policy you quoted.
It will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe- that conclusion is cited, and not SYNTH. That conclusion becomes stronger with the addition of another source, like that from The Week.
In the 2016 campaign, Trump pledged that Roe v. Wade would be overturned "automatically" if he were elected and provided the opportunity to appoint two or three pro-life justices.It's apparent to me that Trump is/was (at least somewhat) personally invested in seeing Roe v. Wade overturned; I think the most efficient way to demonstrate that to all readers is if that sentence were sourced. Any articles from RS would do (prefer to use multiple, since people object to single-source characterizations of Trump) - but I found these two [18] [19]. PhotogenicScientist ( talk) 13:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
During a 2016 presidential debate, Trump predicted that Roe v. Wade (1973), which established abortion as a constitutional right, would be overturned "automatically" if he were elected and given the chance to "put another two or perhaps three" pro-life justices on the Supreme Court.The Times article, in relevant part, says:
Dobbs] will also be one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump, who vowed to name justices who would overrule Roe. All three of his appointees were in the majority in the ruling.Jerome Frank Disciple 14:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Space4Time3Continuum2x, PhotogenicScientist, and Iamreallygoodatcheckers:: Space has reverted the entire change. I don't want to run amok of 1R, but since both of you also agreed with the change (at least in part), would one of you mind reverting, for all the reasons we addressed above?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
Trump's Supreme Court nominees were noted as having politically shifted the Supreme Court to the right."
[Trump's justices] will likely outlive Trump. They will likely ensure a conservative tilt for decades to come. And they will likely mark one of the most dramatic ideological turnarounds the court has seen in such a short timespan in generations." Politico
Trump’s Lasting Legacy: Conservative Supermajority on Supreme Court" (quotes Melissa Murray, who discusses the impact of a 6-3 rather than a 5-4 court) [22]
Trump's imprint on the Supreme Court and overall three-tier federal judiciary represents one of the most significant right-wing successes of his tenure, even as his instigation of the US Capitol assault and final destructive days appear to be leaving the most indelible mark of his legacy." CNN
The Court was already split along political and ideological lines before Trump. And its makeup already had been heavily influenced by the conservative agenda led by the Federalist Society, founded in the early 1980s. But the Trump presidency and the forceful influence of his three Supreme Court appointees propelled the judiciary into a new period of polarization." Nine Black Robes: Inside the Supreme Court's Drive to the Right and Its Historic Consequences by Joan Biskupic ( excerpt (with that quote)).
Trump campaigned in 2016 on eliminating Roe v. Wade, saying he would appoint “pro-life” judges who would overturn it. He made good on that promise by picking Justices Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett."
one of the signal legacies of President Donald J. Trump".
are rarely reliable for statements of fact- typically, you can't use a source like this to assert some provable fact. But, with wording like "it has been noted that", I find the use of this source perfectly acceptable - it's an analysis published by an RS that, in combination with other sources, can be used to verify that, yes, this thing has been noted by reputable and reliable sources.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Space4Time3Continuum2x has continuously block/reverted people’s edits even when reliable sources are given. There are plenty of examples on the talk page for Trump and I just went through his past comments, in those comments Space4Time3Continuum2x was slandering right wing media while praising a far left broadcasting news station. That is completely unacceptable for any wiki editor to show bias like that and to continue to show the same kind of bias by editing/reverting other people edits even when they bring reliable sources. Space4Time3Continuum2x should not be anywhere near a political discussion page let alone have any power over what others can say. Space4Time3Continuum2x’s bias is unprecedented and unacceptable for a someone who is supposed to help bring facts. Instead Space4Time3Continuum2x continues to condescend, revert, and oppose any edits that don’t align with Space4Time3Continuum2x own beliefs. As Wikipedia try’s to become a more reliable and fact driven encyclopedia people like Space4Time3Continuum2x are holding wiki back by miles. There are plenty other editors that agree with these facts I’ve present about Space4Time3Continuum2x. Space4Time3Continuum2x should not have any power over political pages of any sort whatsoever. 2601:14E:80:46D0:F001:2AAF:92C2:A8E ( talk) 06:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
I've responded on my talk page. Adding this for the benefit of any other IP address/es contemplating general unspecific allegations of violations of WP rules: listen very carefully, I shall say zis only once. I won’t respond, and I’ll delete any such allegations from my talk page. Specify the edit(s) and the rule(s), and I’ll take a look at my alleged misbehavior and rectify it, if necessary. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 14:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)