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I have rewritten the lead in a way that I don't think needs any citations, and is less controversial. I tried to keep everything in there, and not take anything out (unless it was absolutely necessary, in the case of redundancy and stuff).
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
Trump graduated from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in 1968. He became president of his father Fred Trump's real estate business in 1971 and renamed it The Trump Organization. Trump expanded the company's operations to building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses. He later started side ventures, mostly by licensing his name. From 2004 to 2015, he co-produced and hosted the reality television series The Apprentice. Trump and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 state and federal legal actions, including six bankruptcies.
Trump's political positions have been described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist. He won the 2016 United States presidential election as the Republican nominee against Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, while losing the popular vote, becoming the fifth U.S. president to win the Electoral College while losing the popular vote, and he became the first U.S. president with no prior military or government service. The 2017–2019 special counsel investigation led by Robert Mueller established that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to benefit the Trump campaign, but not it was not able to find evidence that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with Russian election interference activities. Trump's election and policies sparked numerous protests. Trump made many false and misleading statements, promoted conspiracy theories, during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics, and his election and policies sparked numerous protests. and promoted conspiracy theories. Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, or misogynistic and many as misogynistic.
Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries. He diverted funding toward building a wall on the U.S.–Mexico border that was designed to limit illegal immigration, and implemented a policy of family separations for apprehended migrants. He signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, which cut taxes for individuals and businesses and rescinded the individual health insurance mandate penalty of the Affordable Care Act. He appointed 54 federal appellate judges and three United States Supreme Court justices. In foreign policy, Trump pursued an America First agenda. He withdrew the U.S. from pulled the U.S. out of the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement, the Paris Agreement on climate change, and the Iran nuclear deal. He initiated a trade war with China, that negatively impacted the U.S. economy which impacted the U.S. economy negatively. Trump met with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un three times, but made no progress on denuclearization. but was unable to progress toward the denuclearization of North Korea. He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, His reaction to and handling of the COVID-19 pandemic was widely criticized, as he often ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials many times in his messaging, promoted enabling, and in some cases promoting the dissemination of misinformation unproven, contradictory and/or false information about unproven treatments for the virus and the need for testing.
Trump lost the 2020 presidential election to Joe Biden, but refused to concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and attempting to overturn the results by pressuring government officials, mounting scores of unsuccessful legal challenges, and obstructing the presidential transition. On January 6, 2021, Trump urged his supporters to march to the Capitol in protest of the election, which they then attacked, resulting in multiple deaths and interrupting the electoral vote count.
Trump is the only federal officeholder in American history to have been impeached twice. After he pressured Ukraine to investigate Biden in 2019, he was impeached by the House of Representatives for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress in December. The Senate acquitted him of both charges in February 2020. The House of Representatives impeached Trump He was impeached a second time in January 2021, for on the charge of incitement of insurrection. The Senate acquitted him in February, after he had already left office. Trump remains a highly controversial figure—while many scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history, he still has a large following in the United States, and many people believe that he will re-run for re-election in 2024.
What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2ple ( talk • contribs) 20:02, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about unproven treatmentswith
enabling, and in some cases promoting the dissemination of unproven, contradictory and/or false information about treatments for the virusnot hiding any meaning under an avalanche of words, i.e., whitewashing (sources?)? The proposal also ignores Talk:Donald_Trump#Current_consensus items like 49. The proposed last sentence is not supported by the body of the article (sources?), and it reads like an op-ed. "many people believe that he will re-run for re-election in 2024" - WP:NOTNEWS. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:03, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
enabling, and in some cases promoting the dissemination of unproven, contradictory and/or false information about treatments for the viruswas mainly to take away the word ' misinformation,' as I think it makes the average reader's mind jump straight to ' disinformation,' especially in the case of Trump, but you have a point. I also agree with the fact that that last sentence isn't the best, so remove that final phrase. The one thing I don't like is the
to a degree unprecedented in American politics,but whatever. It's consensus, so whatever. Add it back. And yes, I can see that I was wrong. This clearly does not limit bias, nor does it eliminate the need for citations. What I do think it does well is fix some of the choppiness (i.e. the whole fourth paragraph.) 2ple ( talk) 14:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politicsis based on the Donald_Trump#False_statements section which is quite long and has 26 citations. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:13, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Harvard’s Berkman Klein Center analyzed 55,000 online media stories, 5 million tweets and 75,000 posts on public Facebook pages with millions of interaction and concluded that Trump and his reelection campaign, using Twitter, press briefings and television interviews, is driving peaks in attention to disinformation around mail-in voting, absentee balloting and election rigging, according to research published last week.We're not using disinformation in the lead, but mentioning the analysis by a renowned research center in the body is in line with WP:WEIGHT, IMO. I just edited the sentence to clarify that disinformation refers to absentee voting. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 11:31, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
In 2020, Trump was a significant source of disinformation on mail-in voting and misinformation on the COVID-19 pandemic.
His attacks on mail-in ballots and other election practices served to weaken public faith in the integrity of the 2020 presidential election, while his disinformation about the pandemic delayed and weakened the national response to it.
Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.It should not be, in theory, controversial at all, as it has been internally linked, sourced later in the article, and has been decided upon by consensus. However, it is still is controversial. Why do you think that is? It's because it is worded in a way that I think seems to convey a sort of widespread agreement that Trump is a bad president, which is not necessarily true, IMHO. Take this phrase:
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials in his messaging, and promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the need for testing.Again, true. It's about the wording.
He reacted slowly,I think, makes it seem like he is somehow a 'slow' president (which isn't necessarily untrue, but still). It would be better rewritten, I think, as
His reaction to and handling of the COVID-19 pandemic was widely criticized,which I think more accurately describes his reaction.
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, a neutral statement of the facts, to
His reaction to and handling of the COVID-19 pandemic was widely criticized..., which entirely omits the fact that he reacted slowly (not even including it as part of the WP:WEASELly opinions it reduces the rest of the sentence to!),and which engages in WP:WEASEL / WP:POV wording by attributing factual statements in the sources for the reset of the sentence to vaguely-defined "critics" instead. The addition of
in protest of the electionis also a serious NPOV violation in that it is, at the very least, certainly not accepted as fact that that protesting was his sole goal. The addition of
...he still has a large following in the United States, and many people believe that he will re-run for re-election in 2024.is, again, speculative, weasely, and vague; additionally, it implicitly weighs the opinions of his "large following" equally to academic experts, which is another NPOV violation. Overall the proposed lead has far more POV problems than the current one. More generally, I'm strenuously opposed to sweeping rewrites to such a controversial lead - there's nothing about any of these suggestions that would require that they be bundled together, so I suggest breaking this down into smaller discussions for individual proposed changes which can then be addressed one at a time. (That said I see little chance of most of the proposed changes achieving a consensus even individually, since they introduce POV problems to a comparatively neutral text - and since the fundamental goal here, if it's trying to "reduce the need for citations", is a clear problem because that means that whether you intend it or not you're moving the lead away from what the sources say.) -- Aquillion ( talk) 03:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Watch 2000 Mules. Trump’s allegations about the election in 2020 being stolen are true. 184.21.136.147 ( talk) 15:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Does the following sentence provide the appropriate context that is understood the closing of Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 141#RfC Russian Bounties claims?
Trump expressed doubts about Russia's alleged bounties to Taliban fighters for attacking American soldiers in Afghanistan and never discussed it with Putin. [1] [2] [3]
Iamreallygoodatcheckers ( talk) 06:44, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
RfC Russian bounties - better wordingwas just a heading referencing the RfC. But you did ask for the discussion to be closed. Was there any kind of response? The title of this RfC ought to include that it's about the wording, and the short description appears to be missing a word or two. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
... there seems to be rough agreement that some coverage of the Russian bounty controversy and its relation to Trump be maintained, but that the current wording of the coverage could be altered or contextualized.How do you get the context "Trump doubted" from three sources that say the explanations from Trump/WH/other officials were inconsistent, i.e., "fake news" and "wasn't briefed"? Counterproposal:
Trump did not discuss the alleged Russian bounties offered to Taliban fighters for attacking American soldiers in Afghanistan with Putin, saying both that he doubted the intelligence and that he was not briefed on it. [4]
Hatted quote from NYT
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Trump was not briefed on the matter, [1] yet he expressed doubts about Russia's alleged bounties to Taliban fighters for attacking American soldiers in Afghanistan and never discussed it with Putin. [1] [2] [3]
References
None of the tweets inescapably lead to the inference that the President's statements about the Dossier are rooted in information he received from the law enforcement and intelligence communities... The President's statements may very well be based on media reports or his own personal knowledge, or could simply be viewed as political statements intended to counter media accounts about the Russia investigation, rather than assertions of pure fact.
There's some discussion of this close here. Posting this note for any feedback before filing request for close review. It appears to me that closer did not review the extensive discussion and sourcing spread over multiple threads before this unnecessary and largely ignored, thinly participated RfC. It further disappoints me that closer was unable or unwilling to note the distinction between what Trump doubts and what he says he doubts, a distinction that is widely noted and sourced. SPECIFICO talk 13:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
this discussion did not achieve a consensus on a specific way to characterize these doubts, referring to the doubts about the Russian bounty allegations. The claim
that closer was unable or unwilling to note the distinction between what Trump doubts and what he says he doubtssimply ignores that part of the closing summary—which explicitly notes that the way that the doubts are characterized (i.e. as things Trump says he doubts v.s. things Trump actually doubts) does not have consensus. — Ⓜ️hawk10 ( talk) 23:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
I added it (and did some copy-editing while I was at it). I removed the Politico source because IMO the NYT article is sufficient. Any objections or suggestions, anyone? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:17, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
What's the problem folks? Disagreement over how to implement the recently closed RFC? GoodDay ( talk) 21:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
I propose changing the alma mater's parameter from saying "
Wharton School (BS Econ.)
" to saying "
University of Pennsylvania (BS Econ.)
". This would be more consistent with most biographical articles. The majority do not say the specific college in the infobox, just the university. For example,
Barack Obama's says "Harvard University" rather than "Harvard Law School" which is specifically where he obtained his JD. Same is true for the alma mater parameters of
Bill Clinton,
George W. Bush, and
Joe Biden. It's just the standard practice across most biographies, and I find it puzzling why this page is different.
Iamreallygoodatcheckers (
talk) 05:05, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles (and Wikipedia mirrors) in themselves are not reliable sources for any purpose( WP:WPNOTRS). It’s unclear from their edit histories why the three articles that existed about Wharton in 2003, ( Wharton School of Business, Wharton School, and The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania) were merged into the one with the current name. The name of the school was Wharton School of Finance and Commerce until 1972. It was shortened to Wharton School on May 15, 1972. [1] When people say "U Penn’s Wharton School" or add "at the University of Pennsylvania" or "of the University of Pennsylvania", it’s an explanation. Most people understand "university" and "Pennsylvania" without additional information, Wharton not so much. The infobox is already very big, Wharton is shorter than University of Pennsylvania, and we’ve had quite a few discussions to form the current consensus. The name is linked in the infobox per WP:UL,
Proper names that are likely to be unfamiliar to readers.Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 10:37, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
References
SPECIFICO, the sentence said "hundreds" for a while. It was changed to "thousands" on February 13, and I removed "thousands" on 15 February because the body doesn't mention a number. Whether it was hundreds or thousands depends on the definition of "attack", the ones who entered the building, the screaming mob outside. I don't see any difference in meaning between "then" and "subsequently" but "they then" sounds a bit choppy. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 20:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
At a January 6, 2021 political rally on the Ellipse(,) Trump urged his supporters to march to the Capitol, which hundreds of them then attacked, resulting in multiple deaths and interrupting the electoral vote count.
On January 6, 2021, Trump urged his supporters to march to the Capitol, which they then attacked, resulting in multiple deaths and interrupting the electoral vote count.
which they then attackedin the old sentence to
which hundreds of them attacked? 2ple ( talk) 00:45, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
McCarthy says: "... I asked him personally today, 'Does he hold responsibility for what happened? Does he feel bad about what happened?' He told me he does have some responsibility for what happened and he needs to acknowledge that."[1] Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 11:35, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Should be placed in the Trump administration article. Not his bio. GoodDay ( talk) 22:50, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Some of the editors in favor of the citations said it will be more convenient for readers looking for the sources supporting the more controversial statements, and would also help reduce edit wars and complaints from new users and IPs. This was responded to by noting that no amount of citations would stop some users from contesting some of those statements, and could be used as a slippery slope in support of the addition of sources in ledes when it wouldn't be necessary.
Most compelling, though, were those arguing in favor of WP:BLP, a policy that is used as the basis for MOS:LEDECITE, which further justifies the citation of contentious statements about living people. While it is true that, historically, this article, as well as those of other presidents of the United States of America, have avoided the use of citations in the lede, the MOS does encourage its use when editors see a need for such, and this RfC has shown consensus towards using inline citations in the lede for the more contentious and controversial statements.
During the discussion, some examples were given as to which those sentences would be, but editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations, likely starting with those already presented by FormalDude. ( non-admin closure) Isabelle 🏳🌈 23:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Yes or No: Should the lead section of this article include any citations at all?
Relevant policy:
MOS:LEADCITE
Previous discussion:
Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_144#Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Citations
––
FormalDude
talk 19:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Previous discussions on Donald Trump Talk page:
Archive 12,
Archive 19,
Archive 26 with
RfC clarification,
Archive 29,
Archive 41,
Archive 70,
Archive 96,
Archive 108,
Archive 138,
Archive 142,
Archive 144
Space4Time3Continuum2x (
talk) 15:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Previous discussions on Manual of Style/Lead section Talk page:
2006,
2006,
2007/1,
2007/2,
2007/3,
2007/4,
2007/5,
2007/6,
2007/7,
2007/8,
2009,
2010/1,
2010/2,
2011,
2013,
2015.
Space4Time3Continuum2x (
talk) 15:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Claims contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions—especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living and recently dead people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them.That seems pretty applicable here. Any material challenged or likely to be challenged should have a source, and WP:BLPRS extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced can be removed immediately and without discussion. This is a controversial article and we should back at least some of the most controversial statements in the lead with reliable sources. –– FormalDude talk 02:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article. Instead it says
Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leadsand goes on to say that
Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. I can't think of a page that is simultaneously more complex, current, and controversial than this one, and so we should lean heavily towards the side of citing controversial information. Loki ( talk) 03:35, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead... Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.So things like "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, and many as misogynistic.", "He falsely claimed that there was widespread electoral fraud and attempted to overturn the results by pressuring government officials, mounting scores of unsuccessful legal challenges, and obstructing the presidential transition", etc. need citations. Endwise ( talk) 06:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Controversialor
likely to be challengeddoes not mean "refuted by reliable sources", it means controversial or likely to be challenged by readers/editors. Allegations of misogyny or racism, or stating that someone has said something false is always by it's nature controversial material, and if you look at this talk page history you will see heaps of new editors mad about these statements and challenging them. I'm not advocating to remove them, I'm advocating to add citations to material that is controversial and is subject to challenge, as MOS:LEADCITE says. Endwise ( talk) 10:19, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B." –– FormalDude talk 11:05, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
In a non-fallacious sense [...], a middle-ground possibility is acknowledged, and reasoning is provided for the likelihood of the predicted outcome.68.97.42.64 ( talk) 11:34, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
we don't operate Wikipedia based solely off what you claim to have seenis intended to imply we don't value anecdotal evidence. It was not a "subtle accusation" that you lie about what you see–I assume you don't. –– FormalDude talk 03:30, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.I interprete "case-by-case basis" as referring to the individually proposed additions of cites to statements deemed to be controversial by some editors but not by others. We'll be back at square one, discussing every single sentence and which cite to use. We have a multitude of reliable published sources for everything in the lead. If we were to cite all of them in the body, the article would have a few thousand references instead of the 818 it currently has after quite a bit of trimming.
Many of the IPs that come here and complain do not read past the lead and then complain about a lack of sourcing—well, that's their problem, not ours. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Also, if they can't be bothered to read the body, does anyone really think they'll read the cites? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:BLPRS says:Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.
So, I think some statements should be cited. I.hate.spam.mail.here ( talk | contributions) 00:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed.
we often include a few references with any controversial content in the lead to prevent edit wars. Controversial content often draws fire and demands for references, so we usually oblige.–– FormalDude talk 00:47, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics, and promoted conspiracy theories.
Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, and many as misogynistic.
Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and ...from the "Veracity of" article to the "False statements" section in this article, i.e.,
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and .... Wouldn't that take care of the argument that readers are not able to find items in the body because the lead does not use the exact same words? This article also has sections with conspiracy theories, racial views, and misogyny in the headings. As for "ranked as one of the worst presidents", readers would have to read Donald Trump#Approval ratings but I don't think that's too much to ask. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:33, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Barack Hussein Obama II (born August 4, 1961)because of all the old birtherism crazies? ValarianB ( talk) 13:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead.There is no ambiguity there. The moment any text in the lead of a BLP faces a good-faith challenge, it requires a citation, and that requirement remains for the rest of the article's existence; and it is absurd to suggest that no text in this lead has ever been challenged when most of it is the result of successive RFCs. I feel that some people have a game-of-telephone impression of LEADCITE that focuses primarily on its second paragraph and which turns "redundant citations can sometimes be omitted from the lead based on consensus" to "redundant citations should always be omitted from the lead." But either way that does not apply to statements about BLPs that have previously been challenged, which always require citations every time they appear - they are never redundant and can never be omitted. By my reading the first paragraph of LEADCITE unambiguously says that a local consensus cannot remove the requirement for such citations. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:01, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Gee, I wonder why this would be contested, perhaps citations can help? Citations will not balance this lead and are the least of the problems here.
OnePercent ( talk) 16:03, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.. If you have reliable sources, for example that he didn’t lose the 2020 election or that he was impeached twice, go ahead and edit the body, and be prepared to defend your edits when challenged. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 10:16, 29 April 2022 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 11:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.I interprete "case-by-case basis" as referring to the individually proposed additions of cites to statements deemed to be controversial by some editors but not by others. We'll be back at square one, discussing every single sentence and which cite to use. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
FormalDude, Qsung, yay, a challenge! Endwise mentioned two sentences they consider to be contentious and in need of cites. So, let’s discuss specifics. I’ve hatted the body texts the sentences are summarizing.
Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, and many as misogynistic.
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Racial views Many of Trump's comments and actions have been considered racist. [1] He repeatedly denied this, saying: "I am the least racist person there is anywhere in the world." [2] In national polling, about half of respondents said that Trump is racist; a greater proportion believed that he has emboldened racists. [3] [4] Several studies and surveys found that racist attitudes fueled Trump's political ascent and were more important than economic factors in determining the allegiance of Trump voters. [5] [6] Racist and Islamophobic attitudes are a strong indicator of support for Trump. [7] In 1975, he settled a 1973 Department of Justice lawsuit that alleged housing discrimination against black renters. [8] He has also been accused of racism for insisting a group of black and Latino teenagers were guilty of raping a white woman in the 1989 Central Park jogger case, even after they were exonerated by DNA evidence in 2002. As of 2019, he maintained this position. [9] Trump relaunched his political career in 2011 as a leading proponent of "birther" conspiracy theories alleging that Barack Obama, the first black U.S. president, was not born in the United States. [10] [11] In April 2011, Trump claimed credit for pressuring the White House to publish the "long-form" birth certificate, which he considered fraudulent, and later saying this made him "very popular". [12] [13] In September 2016, amid pressure, he acknowledged that Obama was born in the U.S. and falsely claimed the rumors had been started by Hillary Clinton during her 2008 presidential campaign. [14] In 2017, he reportedly still expressed birther views in private. [15] According to an analysis in Political Science Quarterly, Trump made "explicitly racist appeals to whites" during his 2016 presidential campaign. [16] In particular, his campaign launch speech drew widespread criticism for claiming Mexican immigrants were "bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists". [17] [18] His later comments about a Mexican-American judge presiding over a civil suit regarding Trump University were also criticized as racist. [19] Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, condemning "this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides" and stating that there were "very fine people on both sides", were widely criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist demonstrators and the counter-protesters. [20] [21] [22] [23] In a January 2018 Oval Office meeting to discuss immigration legislation, Trump reportedly referred to El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, and African nations as "shithole countries". [24] His remarks were condemned as racist. [25] [26] In July 2019, Trump tweeted that four Democratic congresswomen—all minorities, three of whom are native-born Americans—should " go back" to the countries they "came from". [27] Two days later the House of Representatives voted 240–187, mostly along party lines, to condemn his "racist comments". [28] White nationalist publications and social media sites praised his remarks, which continued over the following days. [29] Trump continued to make similar remarks during his 2020 campaign. [30] Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct Trump has a history of insulting and belittling women when speaking to media and on social media. He made lewd comments, demeaned women's looks, and called them names, such as 'dog', 'crazed, 'crying lowlife', 'face of a pig', or 'horseface'. [31] [32] [33] In October 2016, two days before the second presidential debate, a 2005 " hot mic" recording surfaced in which Trump is heard bragging about kissing and groping women without their consent, saying "when you're a star, they let you do it, you can do anything... grab 'em by the pussy." [34] The incident's widespread media exposure led to Trump's first public apology during the campaign [35] and caused outrage across the political spectrum. [36] At least twenty-six women, including his first wife, have publicly accused Trump of sexual misconduct. There were allegations of rape, violence, being kissed and groped without consent, looking under women's skirts, and walking in on naked pageant contestants. [37] [38] [39] In 2016, he denied all accusations, calling them "false smears" and alleging a conspiracy against him and the American people. [40] References
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He falsely claimed that there was widespread electoral fraud and attempted to overturn the results by pressuring government officials, mounting scores of unsuccessful legal challenges, and obstructing the presidential transition.
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Claims of voting fraud, attempt to prevent presidential transition At 2 a.m. the morning after the election, with the results still unclear, Trump declared victory. [1] After Biden was projected the winner days later, Trump said, "this election is far from over" and baselessly alleged election fraud. [2] Trump and his allies filed many legal challenges to the results, which were rejected by at least 86 judges in both the state and federal courts, including by federal judges appointed by Trump himself, finding no factual or legal basis. [3] [4] Trump's unsubstantiated allegations of widespread voting fraud were also refuted by state election officials. [5] After Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) director Chris Krebs contradicted Trump's fraud allegations, Trump dismissed him on November 17. [6] On December 11, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear a case from the Texas attorney general that asked the court to overturn the election results in four states won by Biden. [7] Trump withdrew from public activities in the weeks following the election. [8] He initially blocked government officials from cooperating in Biden's presidential transition. [9] [10] After three weeks, the administrator of the General Services Administration declared Biden the "apparent winner" of the election, allowing the disbursement of transition resources to his team. [11] Trump still did not formally concede while claiming he recommended the GSA begin transition protocols. [12] [13] The Electoral College formalized Biden's victory on December 14. [14] From November to January, Trump repeatedly sought help to overturn the results of the election, personally pressuring various Republican local and state office-holders, [15] Republican state and federal legislators, [16] the Justice Department, [17] and Vice President Pence, [18] urging various actions such as replacing presidential electors, or a request for Georgia officials to "find" votes and announce a "recalculated" result. [16] On February 10, 2021, Georgia prosecutors opened a criminal investigation into Trump's efforts to subvert the election in Georgia. [19] Trump did not attend Biden's inauguration, leaving Washington for Florida hours before. [20] References
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We do get complaints, mostly from IP addresses or new accounts never to be heard from again. If readers/editors find material contentious, shouldn't they back up their opinions with reliable sources? So, prophylactically or assuming someone backed up their opinion with at least one reliable source, which one(s) of our numerous cites for each sentence would you choose? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 09:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
racially charged or racist, I think that's fairly obvious. For misogynistic, I found a better summarizing source (which wasn't hard–these topics have consensus for a reason) and added that to the body as citation 801 for
Trump has a history of insulting and belittling women when speaking to media and on social media(the source describes "Trump's long recorded history of objectifying and sexualizing women and their bodies.") This is the source I'd recommend for
many as misogynistic. –– FormalDude talk 10:02, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads.is followed by
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.I'm going through the archived discussions on this talk page and I've found an admin's clarification of their RfC close "As concerns inline attribution" that appears to confirm my interpretation. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.
The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.
neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article. If it said "neither required in any article nor prohibited in any article", it would support your position; but saying that it is not required in every article merely means that some articles exist where it is not required and, especially in the context of the blanket ban on prohibition in the second half of the sentence, heavily implies that there in fact are other articles where such citations are strictly required (ie. not subject to local consensus.) The first sentence is clearly just talking about cases where they have not been required by the first paragraph. -- Aquillion ( talk) 23:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
That’s assuming that it’s "precise, careful wording" and not just a wordy version of "The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required nor prohibited." The sentence
was removed with the edit summary Removed redundant statement. It adds nothing to what has already been said in the 2 paras above
, and
reinstated with the summary summarizes, and makes the content of
Template:Not verified in body easier to understand
. The template documentation says about its usage that More specifically, many articles, including the bulk of featured articles, do not contain any citations in the lead, because the lead section in them is used to summarize the content in the body of the article, which already contains citations for the summarized content. Thus, this template should only be used:
*In articles which already have substantial sourcing; and
*The lead is clearly written as a summary of the content; but
*One of the facts in the lead is not verified in the article's body and you seek verification of that fact.
I don’t think the first two bullet points can be disputed. I don’t remember ever having seen the template not verified in body used in the lead but there were a few times when readers sought verification on the Talk page. Mostly, though, the complaints weren’t about missing cites in the lead, they were about substance (e.g., don’t mention the 4,000 lawsuits in the lead). How is double-citing the source going to help in those instances?
I’ve slogged through the history of the Lead_section#Citations in the the archives of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section looking for the source of "Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead", in vain. W:V merely states that "material … must be verifiable and that "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations" (we’re not using any quotations in the lead); W:BLPSOURCE similarly that "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation". MOS is style, not policy. If anybody wants to take a look at the discussions, here’s the list: 2006, 2006, 2007/1, 2007/2, 2007/3, 2007/4, 2007/5, 2007/6, 2007/7, 2007/8, 2009, 2010/1, 2010/2, 2011, 2013, 2015. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Considering the size of the archives, there hasn’t been that much discussion. "No cites in the lead" was the consensus. I may have missed some discussions whose headings didn’t mention the lead or citations or when I got sidetracked into reading various discussions. Archive 12, Archive 19, Archive 26 with RfC clarification, Archive 29, Archive 41, Archive 70, Archive 96, Archive 108, Archive 138, Archive 142, Archive 144
A couple of quotes from Archive 96:
Long-standing consensus at this article has it that the cost of citations in the lead (visual clutter) would exceed their benefit. Editors make an effort to ensure that the lead summarizes cited content in the body. More generally, I would argue that "unusual" does not equate to "strange" and is anything but a Bad Thing; rather, emphasis on consistency tends to ensure consistently mediocre content. It would be different if there were a community consensus that leads should have cites, but there is not one. The community has left this to our discretion, and we have exercised it. (Editor Mandruss, 23:16, 22 March 2019 (UTC))
I’m generally opposed to having citations in the lede of any article, but most especially the fulsome biographies you often get with politicians. Citations in the lede of a US president are extremely rare. The most recent president with citations (and only a couple) is Jimmy Carter, and before that JFK, so it's been a long standing convention to avoid them. (Editor Scjessey, 13:19, 23 March 2019 (UTC)) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:21, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
In the third paragraph, the article states that Trump made many false and misleading statements during his presidency, or something along those lines. I suggest that we change that to something along the lines of “Trump made many statements during his presidency that some consider to be false or misleading.” I think this would be a worthwhile change, as it will adhere more to the neutrality policy of Wikipedia while also not making too substantial of a change to the article. Thanks! 2600:8800:E0B:1600:A558:6CA1:BF9B:4450 ( talk) 20:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
Where is the history of Donald's extensive connections and involvement with the NYC Mafia, such as boss Fat Tony Salerno, or Trump employee, Felix Slater? There have been a number of reports or articles about it over the years, with a recent refocus of it during his 2015-2016 presidential campaign. Why was this information removed from the article? Did Donald Trump or his associates remove this? I don't remember how developed it was on here, but there is a reasonably extensive history on it, including the federal Grand Jury investigation that was conducted on Donald Trump in the 1990s by the Southern District of NY and quietly dismissed through the influence of his sister, who was employed as an ADA in that office at the time.
Are there other Trump articles (that I am not mentioning or have overlooked) that should be included in a See Also Section? is there a separate Wikipedia article on his personal upbringing, or other aspects of his history?While the articles from Internet 1.0 are likely forever gone from our inclusion here through article/forum scrubbing and media aging, too much seems to be missing from this article, that was once here. It warrants a deeper look into what has been removed and refrabricated, either by Trump devotees or paid editors... Stevenmitchell ( talk) 08:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
To start off the discussion, here's three sentences that appear to be deserving of a citation, and the sources from the body that best verify them.
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics, [1] and promoted conspiracy theories. [2]
Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, [3] and many as misogynistic. [4] [5]
Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. [6]
References
Since the sources already exist in the body, they'll be easy to duplicate in the lead without adding much size ( example). I do think it's best to start out with only a few citations at first for the most controversial content. –– FormalDude talk 01:21, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citationsas meaning "to boldly go" first and then discuss. I'm trying to muster enough energy (and overcome my inner resistance) to go through past archives to look up the sentences that
elicited the most whining from SPAs and IP editors, to quote Zaathras, and what reasons, if any, were given. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
material challenged or likely to be challenged(citing your comment in the RfC). Our lead (summary) needs to repeat citations given in the full text, but I'm supposed to accept an Abstract (summary) of a full text that I can't read for verification of the claims made in the abstract? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 10:09, 13 May 2022 (UTC) My apology for the error. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 13:47, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
In order to complete your request, Library Card needs permission to access information about you, including your email address, on all projects of this site. No changes will be made with your account.I looked at the sign-up page and the terms of use and privacy statement, in particular the Important Note, when I got the notification on January 26 and decided against signing up.
The lead is based on the body and frequently explicit consensus from the talk page, so it's easy to find what the proper source should be; I don't think we'll find much disagreement on that.That is my argument for keeping cites out of the lead. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 14:15, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Those 3 sentences belong in the Trump administration article, IMHO. GoodDay ( talk) 13:20, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
I suggest we move the lead sentence "Trump's election and policies sparked numerous protests" to the end of the lead paragraph from the middle of it. As written, it reads to me like the protests are in reaction to the Russian interference issue. I think it makes more sense to first enumerate the issues protests were in reaction to (racism, conspiracy theories, etc), then after that to mention the protests.
I am posting the edit here because the sentence is marked "DO NOT CHANGE this sentence without prior consensus" and Zaathras complained on that basis with the move. As I wasn't editing the sentence, just moving it, I figured I was following the letter of the law, but I have no objection to following process here. As an aside, it might make sense to follow what was done for the Climate Change article and mark the entire lead section with "Please do not change the content in the lead section without prior discussion" instead of just selectively fencing off a few sentences.
Anyhow, I'm thinking I just wait a day to see if there's any objections to the edit, and if not I'll make the edit tomorrow. Let me know if there's a different system or objections to the edit (or in support of it). Thanks! -- Efbrazil ( talk) 16:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
"... government service"). I'm neutral on the proposed change vs. the status quo. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 16:38, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
"... government service") for years, then some idiot moved the Mueller investigation from the fifth paragraph up to the third and added it in the wrong place. The idiot in question being me, I just moved the sentence back to where it belongs. "Policies" refers to the political positions mentioned in the first sentence of the paragraph. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I have been attempting to add information to the article regarding Trump tariffs that is getting reverted. The article currently has clear bias where we say things like "failure" based on opinion pieces and instead of data. Here are the facts:
1. The trade deficit with China went down after the tariffs were imposed. This is clear according to United States Census Data, shown here on an annualized basis: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html
I added a chart with that information here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Trade_Deficit.svg
I also removed the characterization that "the deficit reached its highest level in 12 years under his administration", which is a statement that could be made about any of our recent presidents if you just look at the chart. The facts are that the results of the trade war are mixed. The edit was reverted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=1088669286&oldid=1088655265
Don't you think the chart is a better characterization of the trade war than a sentence using a single data point to characterize the effects of the trade war as "nothing"?
2. I tried to remove the highly biased statement that the tariffs were "a failure" based on sourcing to liberal and business interest opinion articles. The edit was reverted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=1088669796&oldid=1088669286
Shouldn't we avoid saying things like "failure" based on opinion pieces and stick to facts instead?
3. If we are to going say things like "failure", then I figure we should probably add that Biden has kept the Trump tariffs in place. I guess he likes failures! I added that information from this source: https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/26/politics/china-tariffs-biden-policy/index.html
The edit was reverted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=1088697893&oldid=1088697341
I guess because the editors here don't want Biden portrayed as a failure. That's Trump's role, right?
Look, all I am trying to do is replace clear bias in this article regarding trade with the facts of the matter. It looks to me like the editors here want to suppress any facts that don't portray Trump in a purely negative light. Is there any piece of information above regarding trade that anybody thinks we should put in the article, or has Trump derangement syndrome overtaken the editors of this article? Efbrazil ( talk) 17:36, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
deficit reached its highest level in 12 yearsis noteworthy because Trump had pledged to "sharply lower" it, per the source. Chart: It's not a characterization of the trade war at all because there may have well have been other factors that influenced the trade deficit, the pandemic, a war, the Ever Given, stuff reliable sources would factor into their reporting. (Also a spelling error, unless you want to include some other crisis or crises that occurred in 2008.) Bias: yeah, Trump Derangement Syndrome sounds totally unbiased. If you have RS saying Trump's trade war was a success or that it was not the failure other sources say it was, please present them. Biden: The appropriate page would be the one on Biden. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:32, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
liberal and business interest opinion articles; the Brookings Institution is perhaps the most well-regarded think-tank in the world and is generally considered roughly neutral, while Bloomberg and CNN are both high-quality neutral sources suitable for statements of fact. -- Aquillion ( talk) 18:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
characterized as, I guess. -- Aquillion ( talk) 21:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Markell_West, what's with the hyphenation here, here, and here? Financial disclosure forms, property tax abatement, and consumer goods companies are non-hyphenated compound nouns, not nouns modified by a compound adjective. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:03, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
It says in the intro, "Trump graduated from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in 1968." Shouldn't the subject (economics) be stated? Arctic Gazelle ( talk) 06:41, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
No, because it doesn’t relate to his notability. If you erase his media, business, and political career, and all he has is his Econ degree, he wouldn’t be notable enough to be on WP.
Also the reasons for his notability (careers in business, media, and politics), none of those three required a degree in economics. If he was a notable economist or economics professor, then yes it should be included in the lead. But it doesn’t pertain to his notability. Mrbeastmodeallday ( talk) 09:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
All Wharton students graduate with a Bachelor of Science in economics, but students choose areas of study called concentrations.Trump graduated from Wharton with a concentration in real estate. It shows that he had an interest in his father's real estate business. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:19, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 140 | ← | Archive 143 | Archive 144 | Archive 145 | Archive 146 | Archive 147 | → | Archive 150 |
I have rewritten the lead in a way that I don't think needs any citations, and is less controversial. I tried to keep everything in there, and not take anything out (unless it was absolutely necessary, in the case of redundancy and stuff).
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
Trump graduated from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in 1968. He became president of his father Fred Trump's real estate business in 1971 and renamed it The Trump Organization. Trump expanded the company's operations to building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses. He later started side ventures, mostly by licensing his name. From 2004 to 2015, he co-produced and hosted the reality television series The Apprentice. Trump and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 state and federal legal actions, including six bankruptcies.
Trump's political positions have been described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist. He won the 2016 United States presidential election as the Republican nominee against Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, while losing the popular vote, becoming the fifth U.S. president to win the Electoral College while losing the popular vote, and he became the first U.S. president with no prior military or government service. The 2017–2019 special counsel investigation led by Robert Mueller established that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to benefit the Trump campaign, but not it was not able to find evidence that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with Russian election interference activities. Trump's election and policies sparked numerous protests. Trump made many false and misleading statements, promoted conspiracy theories, during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics, and his election and policies sparked numerous protests. and promoted conspiracy theories. Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, or misogynistic and many as misogynistic.
Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries. He diverted funding toward building a wall on the U.S.–Mexico border that was designed to limit illegal immigration, and implemented a policy of family separations for apprehended migrants. He signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, which cut taxes for individuals and businesses and rescinded the individual health insurance mandate penalty of the Affordable Care Act. He appointed 54 federal appellate judges and three United States Supreme Court justices. In foreign policy, Trump pursued an America First agenda. He withdrew the U.S. from pulled the U.S. out of the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement, the Paris Agreement on climate change, and the Iran nuclear deal. He initiated a trade war with China, that negatively impacted the U.S. economy which impacted the U.S. economy negatively. Trump met with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un three times, but made no progress on denuclearization. but was unable to progress toward the denuclearization of North Korea. He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, His reaction to and handling of the COVID-19 pandemic was widely criticized, as he often ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials many times in his messaging, promoted enabling, and in some cases promoting the dissemination of misinformation unproven, contradictory and/or false information about unproven treatments for the virus and the need for testing.
Trump lost the 2020 presidential election to Joe Biden, but refused to concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and attempting to overturn the results by pressuring government officials, mounting scores of unsuccessful legal challenges, and obstructing the presidential transition. On January 6, 2021, Trump urged his supporters to march to the Capitol in protest of the election, which they then attacked, resulting in multiple deaths and interrupting the electoral vote count.
Trump is the only federal officeholder in American history to have been impeached twice. After he pressured Ukraine to investigate Biden in 2019, he was impeached by the House of Representatives for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress in December. The Senate acquitted him of both charges in February 2020. The House of Representatives impeached Trump He was impeached a second time in January 2021, for on the charge of incitement of insurrection. The Senate acquitted him in February, after he had already left office. Trump remains a highly controversial figure—while many scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history, he still has a large following in the United States, and many people believe that he will re-run for re-election in 2024.
What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2ple ( talk • contribs) 20:02, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
promoted misinformation about unproven treatmentswith
enabling, and in some cases promoting the dissemination of unproven, contradictory and/or false information about treatments for the virusnot hiding any meaning under an avalanche of words, i.e., whitewashing (sources?)? The proposal also ignores Talk:Donald_Trump#Current_consensus items like 49. The proposed last sentence is not supported by the body of the article (sources?), and it reads like an op-ed. "many people believe that he will re-run for re-election in 2024" - WP:NOTNEWS. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:03, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
enabling, and in some cases promoting the dissemination of unproven, contradictory and/or false information about treatments for the viruswas mainly to take away the word ' misinformation,' as I think it makes the average reader's mind jump straight to ' disinformation,' especially in the case of Trump, but you have a point. I also agree with the fact that that last sentence isn't the best, so remove that final phrase. The one thing I don't like is the
to a degree unprecedented in American politics,but whatever. It's consensus, so whatever. Add it back. And yes, I can see that I was wrong. This clearly does not limit bias, nor does it eliminate the need for citations. What I do think it does well is fix some of the choppiness (i.e. the whole fourth paragraph.) 2ple ( talk) 14:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politicsis based on the Donald_Trump#False_statements section which is quite long and has 26 citations. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:13, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Harvard’s Berkman Klein Center analyzed 55,000 online media stories, 5 million tweets and 75,000 posts on public Facebook pages with millions of interaction and concluded that Trump and his reelection campaign, using Twitter, press briefings and television interviews, is driving peaks in attention to disinformation around mail-in voting, absentee balloting and election rigging, according to research published last week.We're not using disinformation in the lead, but mentioning the analysis by a renowned research center in the body is in line with WP:WEIGHT, IMO. I just edited the sentence to clarify that disinformation refers to absentee voting. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 11:31, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
In 2020, Trump was a significant source of disinformation on mail-in voting and misinformation on the COVID-19 pandemic.
His attacks on mail-in ballots and other election practices served to weaken public faith in the integrity of the 2020 presidential election, while his disinformation about the pandemic delayed and weakened the national response to it.
Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.It should not be, in theory, controversial at all, as it has been internally linked, sourced later in the article, and has been decided upon by consensus. However, it is still is controversial. Why do you think that is? It's because it is worded in a way that I think seems to convey a sort of widespread agreement that Trump is a bad president, which is not necessarily true, IMHO. Take this phrase:
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials in his messaging, and promoted misinformation about unproven treatments and the need for testing.Again, true. It's about the wording.
He reacted slowly,I think, makes it seem like he is somehow a 'slow' president (which isn't necessarily untrue, but still). It would be better rewritten, I think, as
His reaction to and handling of the COVID-19 pandemic was widely criticized,which I think more accurately describes his reaction.
He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, a neutral statement of the facts, to
His reaction to and handling of the COVID-19 pandemic was widely criticized..., which entirely omits the fact that he reacted slowly (not even including it as part of the WP:WEASELly opinions it reduces the rest of the sentence to!),and which engages in WP:WEASEL / WP:POV wording by attributing factual statements in the sources for the reset of the sentence to vaguely-defined "critics" instead. The addition of
in protest of the electionis also a serious NPOV violation in that it is, at the very least, certainly not accepted as fact that that protesting was his sole goal. The addition of
...he still has a large following in the United States, and many people believe that he will re-run for re-election in 2024.is, again, speculative, weasely, and vague; additionally, it implicitly weighs the opinions of his "large following" equally to academic experts, which is another NPOV violation. Overall the proposed lead has far more POV problems than the current one. More generally, I'm strenuously opposed to sweeping rewrites to such a controversial lead - there's nothing about any of these suggestions that would require that they be bundled together, so I suggest breaking this down into smaller discussions for individual proposed changes which can then be addressed one at a time. (That said I see little chance of most of the proposed changes achieving a consensus even individually, since they introduce POV problems to a comparatively neutral text - and since the fundamental goal here, if it's trying to "reduce the need for citations", is a clear problem because that means that whether you intend it or not you're moving the lead away from what the sources say.) -- Aquillion ( talk) 03:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Watch 2000 Mules. Trump’s allegations about the election in 2020 being stolen are true. 184.21.136.147 ( talk) 15:13, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Does the following sentence provide the appropriate context that is understood the closing of Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 141#RfC Russian Bounties claims?
Trump expressed doubts about Russia's alleged bounties to Taliban fighters for attacking American soldiers in Afghanistan and never discussed it with Putin. [1] [2] [3]
Iamreallygoodatcheckers ( talk) 06:44, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
RfC Russian bounties - better wordingwas just a heading referencing the RfC. But you did ask for the discussion to be closed. Was there any kind of response? The title of this RfC ought to include that it's about the wording, and the short description appears to be missing a word or two. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:27, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
... there seems to be rough agreement that some coverage of the Russian bounty controversy and its relation to Trump be maintained, but that the current wording of the coverage could be altered or contextualized.How do you get the context "Trump doubted" from three sources that say the explanations from Trump/WH/other officials were inconsistent, i.e., "fake news" and "wasn't briefed"? Counterproposal:
Trump did not discuss the alleged Russian bounties offered to Taliban fighters for attacking American soldiers in Afghanistan with Putin, saying both that he doubted the intelligence and that he was not briefed on it. [4]
Hatted quote from NYT
|
---|
|
Trump was not briefed on the matter, [1] yet he expressed doubts about Russia's alleged bounties to Taliban fighters for attacking American soldiers in Afghanistan and never discussed it with Putin. [1] [2] [3]
References
None of the tweets inescapably lead to the inference that the President's statements about the Dossier are rooted in information he received from the law enforcement and intelligence communities... The President's statements may very well be based on media reports or his own personal knowledge, or could simply be viewed as political statements intended to counter media accounts about the Russia investigation, rather than assertions of pure fact.
There's some discussion of this close here. Posting this note for any feedback before filing request for close review. It appears to me that closer did not review the extensive discussion and sourcing spread over multiple threads before this unnecessary and largely ignored, thinly participated RfC. It further disappoints me that closer was unable or unwilling to note the distinction between what Trump doubts and what he says he doubts, a distinction that is widely noted and sourced. SPECIFICO talk 13:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
this discussion did not achieve a consensus on a specific way to characterize these doubts, referring to the doubts about the Russian bounty allegations. The claim
that closer was unable or unwilling to note the distinction between what Trump doubts and what he says he doubtssimply ignores that part of the closing summary—which explicitly notes that the way that the doubts are characterized (i.e. as things Trump says he doubts v.s. things Trump actually doubts) does not have consensus. — Ⓜ️hawk10 ( talk) 23:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
I added it (and did some copy-editing while I was at it). I removed the Politico source because IMO the NYT article is sufficient. Any objections or suggestions, anyone? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:17, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
What's the problem folks? Disagreement over how to implement the recently closed RFC? GoodDay ( talk) 21:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
I propose changing the alma mater's parameter from saying "
Wharton School (BS Econ.)
" to saying "
University of Pennsylvania (BS Econ.)
". This would be more consistent with most biographical articles. The majority do not say the specific college in the infobox, just the university. For example,
Barack Obama's says "Harvard University" rather than "Harvard Law School" which is specifically where he obtained his JD. Same is true for the alma mater parameters of
Bill Clinton,
George W. Bush, and
Joe Biden. It's just the standard practice across most biographies, and I find it puzzling why this page is different.
Iamreallygoodatcheckers (
talk) 05:05, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles (and Wikipedia mirrors) in themselves are not reliable sources for any purpose( WP:WPNOTRS). It’s unclear from their edit histories why the three articles that existed about Wharton in 2003, ( Wharton School of Business, Wharton School, and The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania) were merged into the one with the current name. The name of the school was Wharton School of Finance and Commerce until 1972. It was shortened to Wharton School on May 15, 1972. [1] When people say "U Penn’s Wharton School" or add "at the University of Pennsylvania" or "of the University of Pennsylvania", it’s an explanation. Most people understand "university" and "Pennsylvania" without additional information, Wharton not so much. The infobox is already very big, Wharton is shorter than University of Pennsylvania, and we’ve had quite a few discussions to form the current consensus. The name is linked in the infobox per WP:UL,
Proper names that are likely to be unfamiliar to readers.Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 10:37, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
References
SPECIFICO, the sentence said "hundreds" for a while. It was changed to "thousands" on February 13, and I removed "thousands" on 15 February because the body doesn't mention a number. Whether it was hundreds or thousands depends on the definition of "attack", the ones who entered the building, the screaming mob outside. I don't see any difference in meaning between "then" and "subsequently" but "they then" sounds a bit choppy. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 20:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
At a January 6, 2021 political rally on the Ellipse(,) Trump urged his supporters to march to the Capitol, which hundreds of them then attacked, resulting in multiple deaths and interrupting the electoral vote count.
On January 6, 2021, Trump urged his supporters to march to the Capitol, which they then attacked, resulting in multiple deaths and interrupting the electoral vote count.
which they then attackedin the old sentence to
which hundreds of them attacked? 2ple ( talk) 00:45, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
McCarthy says: "... I asked him personally today, 'Does he hold responsibility for what happened? Does he feel bad about what happened?' He told me he does have some responsibility for what happened and he needs to acknowledge that."[1] Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 11:35, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Should be placed in the Trump administration article. Not his bio. GoodDay ( talk) 22:50, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
References
Some of the editors in favor of the citations said it will be more convenient for readers looking for the sources supporting the more controversial statements, and would also help reduce edit wars and complaints from new users and IPs. This was responded to by noting that no amount of citations would stop some users from contesting some of those statements, and could be used as a slippery slope in support of the addition of sources in ledes when it wouldn't be necessary.
Most compelling, though, were those arguing in favor of WP:BLP, a policy that is used as the basis for MOS:LEDECITE, which further justifies the citation of contentious statements about living people. While it is true that, historically, this article, as well as those of other presidents of the United States of America, have avoided the use of citations in the lede, the MOS does encourage its use when editors see a need for such, and this RfC has shown consensus towards using inline citations in the lede for the more contentious and controversial statements.
During the discussion, some examples were given as to which those sentences would be, but editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations, likely starting with those already presented by FormalDude. ( non-admin closure) Isabelle 🏳🌈 23:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Yes or No: Should the lead section of this article include any citations at all?
Relevant policy:
MOS:LEADCITE
Previous discussion:
Talk:Donald_Trump/Archive_144#Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Citations
––
FormalDude
talk 19:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Previous discussions on Donald Trump Talk page:
Archive 12,
Archive 19,
Archive 26 with
RfC clarification,
Archive 29,
Archive 41,
Archive 70,
Archive 96,
Archive 108,
Archive 138,
Archive 142,
Archive 144
Space4Time3Continuum2x (
talk) 15:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Previous discussions on Manual of Style/Lead section Talk page:
2006,
2006,
2007/1,
2007/2,
2007/3,
2007/4,
2007/5,
2007/6,
2007/7,
2007/8,
2009,
2010/1,
2010/2,
2011,
2013,
2015.
Space4Time3Continuum2x (
talk) 15:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Claims contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions—especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living and recently dead people. This is especially true when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them.That seems pretty applicable here. Any material challenged or likely to be challenged should have a source, and WP:BLPRS extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced can be removed immediately and without discussion. This is a controversial article and we should back at least some of the most controversial statements in the lead with reliable sources. –– FormalDude talk 02:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article. Instead it says
Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leadsand goes on to say that
Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. I can't think of a page that is simultaneously more complex, current, and controversial than this one, and so we should lean heavily towards the side of citing controversial information. Loki ( talk) 03:35, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead... Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.So things like "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, and many as misogynistic.", "He falsely claimed that there was widespread electoral fraud and attempted to overturn the results by pressuring government officials, mounting scores of unsuccessful legal challenges, and obstructing the presidential transition", etc. need citations. Endwise ( talk) 06:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Controversialor
likely to be challengeddoes not mean "refuted by reliable sources", it means controversial or likely to be challenged by readers/editors. Allegations of misogyny or racism, or stating that someone has said something false is always by it's nature controversial material, and if you look at this talk page history you will see heaps of new editors mad about these statements and challenging them. I'm not advocating to remove them, I'm advocating to add citations to material that is controversial and is subject to challenge, as MOS:LEADCITE says. Endwise ( talk) 10:19, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B." –– FormalDude talk 11:05, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
In a non-fallacious sense [...], a middle-ground possibility is acknowledged, and reasoning is provided for the likelihood of the predicted outcome.68.97.42.64 ( talk) 11:34, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
we don't operate Wikipedia based solely off what you claim to have seenis intended to imply we don't value anecdotal evidence. It was not a "subtle accusation" that you lie about what you see–I assume you don't. –– FormalDude talk 03:30, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.I interprete "case-by-case basis" as referring to the individually proposed additions of cites to statements deemed to be controversial by some editors but not by others. We'll be back at square one, discussing every single sentence and which cite to use. We have a multitude of reliable published sources for everything in the lead. If we were to cite all of them in the body, the article would have a few thousand references instead of the 818 it currently has after quite a bit of trimming.
Many of the IPs that come here and complain do not read past the lead and then complain about a lack of sourcing—well, that's their problem, not ours. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Also, if they can't be bothered to read the body, does anyone really think they'll read the cites? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia:BLPRS says:Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.
So, I think some statements should be cited. I.hate.spam.mail.here ( talk | contributions) 00:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed.
we often include a few references with any controversial content in the lead to prevent edit wars. Controversial content often draws fire and demands for references, so we usually oblige.–– FormalDude talk 00:47, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics, and promoted conspiracy theories.
Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, and many as misogynistic.
Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history.
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and ...from the "Veracity of" article to the "False statements" section in this article, i.e.,
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and .... Wouldn't that take care of the argument that readers are not able to find items in the body because the lead does not use the exact same words? This article also has sections with conspiracy theories, racial views, and misogyny in the headings. As for "ranked as one of the worst presidents", readers would have to read Donald Trump#Approval ratings but I don't think that's too much to ask. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:33, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Barack Hussein Obama II (born August 4, 1961)because of all the old birtherism crazies? ValarianB ( talk) 13:03, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and direct quotations, should be supported by an inline citation. Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead.There is no ambiguity there. The moment any text in the lead of a BLP faces a good-faith challenge, it requires a citation, and that requirement remains for the rest of the article's existence; and it is absurd to suggest that no text in this lead has ever been challenged when most of it is the result of successive RFCs. I feel that some people have a game-of-telephone impression of LEADCITE that focuses primarily on its second paragraph and which turns "redundant citations can sometimes be omitted from the lead based on consensus" to "redundant citations should always be omitted from the lead." But either way that does not apply to statements about BLPs that have previously been challenged, which always require citations every time they appear - they are never redundant and can never be omitted. By my reading the first paragraph of LEADCITE unambiguously says that a local consensus cannot remove the requirement for such citations. -- Aquillion ( talk) 22:01, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Gee, I wonder why this would be contested, perhaps citations can help? Citations will not balance this lead and are the least of the problems here.
OnePercent ( talk) 16:03, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.. If you have reliable sources, for example that he didn’t lose the 2020 election or that he was impeached twice, go ahead and edit the body, and be prepared to defend your edits when challenged. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 10:16, 29 April 2022 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 11:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.I interprete "case-by-case basis" as referring to the individually proposed additions of cites to statements deemed to be controversial by some editors but not by others. We'll be back at square one, discussing every single sentence and which cite to use. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
FormalDude, Qsung, yay, a challenge! Endwise mentioned two sentences they consider to be contentious and in need of cites. So, let’s discuss specifics. I’ve hatted the body texts the sentences are summarizing.
Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, and many as misogynistic.
|
---|
Racial views Many of Trump's comments and actions have been considered racist. [1] He repeatedly denied this, saying: "I am the least racist person there is anywhere in the world." [2] In national polling, about half of respondents said that Trump is racist; a greater proportion believed that he has emboldened racists. [3] [4] Several studies and surveys found that racist attitudes fueled Trump's political ascent and were more important than economic factors in determining the allegiance of Trump voters. [5] [6] Racist and Islamophobic attitudes are a strong indicator of support for Trump. [7] In 1975, he settled a 1973 Department of Justice lawsuit that alleged housing discrimination against black renters. [8] He has also been accused of racism for insisting a group of black and Latino teenagers were guilty of raping a white woman in the 1989 Central Park jogger case, even after they were exonerated by DNA evidence in 2002. As of 2019, he maintained this position. [9] Trump relaunched his political career in 2011 as a leading proponent of "birther" conspiracy theories alleging that Barack Obama, the first black U.S. president, was not born in the United States. [10] [11] In April 2011, Trump claimed credit for pressuring the White House to publish the "long-form" birth certificate, which he considered fraudulent, and later saying this made him "very popular". [12] [13] In September 2016, amid pressure, he acknowledged that Obama was born in the U.S. and falsely claimed the rumors had been started by Hillary Clinton during her 2008 presidential campaign. [14] In 2017, he reportedly still expressed birther views in private. [15] According to an analysis in Political Science Quarterly, Trump made "explicitly racist appeals to whites" during his 2016 presidential campaign. [16] In particular, his campaign launch speech drew widespread criticism for claiming Mexican immigrants were "bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists". [17] [18] His later comments about a Mexican-American judge presiding over a civil suit regarding Trump University were also criticized as racist. [19] Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, condemning "this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides" and stating that there were "very fine people on both sides", were widely criticized as implying a moral equivalence between the white supremacist demonstrators and the counter-protesters. [20] [21] [22] [23] In a January 2018 Oval Office meeting to discuss immigration legislation, Trump reportedly referred to El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, and African nations as "shithole countries". [24] His remarks were condemned as racist. [25] [26] In July 2019, Trump tweeted that four Democratic congresswomen—all minorities, three of whom are native-born Americans—should " go back" to the countries they "came from". [27] Two days later the House of Representatives voted 240–187, mostly along party lines, to condemn his "racist comments". [28] White nationalist publications and social media sites praised his remarks, which continued over the following days. [29] Trump continued to make similar remarks during his 2020 campaign. [30] Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct Trump has a history of insulting and belittling women when speaking to media and on social media. He made lewd comments, demeaned women's looks, and called them names, such as 'dog', 'crazed, 'crying lowlife', 'face of a pig', or 'horseface'. [31] [32] [33] In October 2016, two days before the second presidential debate, a 2005 " hot mic" recording surfaced in which Trump is heard bragging about kissing and groping women without their consent, saying "when you're a star, they let you do it, you can do anything... grab 'em by the pussy." [34] The incident's widespread media exposure led to Trump's first public apology during the campaign [35] and caused outrage across the political spectrum. [36] At least twenty-six women, including his first wife, have publicly accused Trump of sexual misconduct. There were allegations of rape, violence, being kissed and groped without consent, looking under women's skirts, and walking in on naked pageant contestants. [37] [38] [39] In 2016, he denied all accusations, calling them "false smears" and alleging a conspiracy against him and the American people. [40] References
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He falsely claimed that there was widespread electoral fraud and attempted to overturn the results by pressuring government officials, mounting scores of unsuccessful legal challenges, and obstructing the presidential transition.
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Claims of voting fraud, attempt to prevent presidential transition At 2 a.m. the morning after the election, with the results still unclear, Trump declared victory. [1] After Biden was projected the winner days later, Trump said, "this election is far from over" and baselessly alleged election fraud. [2] Trump and his allies filed many legal challenges to the results, which were rejected by at least 86 judges in both the state and federal courts, including by federal judges appointed by Trump himself, finding no factual or legal basis. [3] [4] Trump's unsubstantiated allegations of widespread voting fraud were also refuted by state election officials. [5] After Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) director Chris Krebs contradicted Trump's fraud allegations, Trump dismissed him on November 17. [6] On December 11, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear a case from the Texas attorney general that asked the court to overturn the election results in four states won by Biden. [7] Trump withdrew from public activities in the weeks following the election. [8] He initially blocked government officials from cooperating in Biden's presidential transition. [9] [10] After three weeks, the administrator of the General Services Administration declared Biden the "apparent winner" of the election, allowing the disbursement of transition resources to his team. [11] Trump still did not formally concede while claiming he recommended the GSA begin transition protocols. [12] [13] The Electoral College formalized Biden's victory on December 14. [14] From November to January, Trump repeatedly sought help to overturn the results of the election, personally pressuring various Republican local and state office-holders, [15] Republican state and federal legislators, [16] the Justice Department, [17] and Vice President Pence, [18] urging various actions such as replacing presidential electors, or a request for Georgia officials to "find" votes and announce a "recalculated" result. [16] On February 10, 2021, Georgia prosecutors opened a criminal investigation into Trump's efforts to subvert the election in Georgia. [19] Trump did not attend Biden's inauguration, leaving Washington for Florida hours before. [20] References
|
We do get complaints, mostly from IP addresses or new accounts never to be heard from again. If readers/editors find material contentious, shouldn't they back up their opinions with reliable sources? So, prophylactically or assuming someone backed up their opinion with at least one reliable source, which one(s) of our numerous cites for each sentence would you choose? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 09:35, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
racially charged or racist, I think that's fairly obvious. For misogynistic, I found a better summarizing source (which wasn't hard–these topics have consensus for a reason) and added that to the body as citation 801 for
Trump has a history of insulting and belittling women when speaking to media and on social media(the source describes "Trump's long recorded history of objectifying and sexualizing women and their bodies.") This is the source I'd recommend for
many as misogynistic. –– FormalDude talk 10:02, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads.is followed by
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.I'm going through the archived discussions on this talk page and I've found an admin's clarification of their RfC close "As concerns inline attribution" that appears to confirm my interpretation. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:44, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus.
The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article.
neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article. If it said "neither required in any article nor prohibited in any article", it would support your position; but saying that it is not required in every article merely means that some articles exist where it is not required and, especially in the context of the blanket ban on prohibition in the second half of the sentence, heavily implies that there in fact are other articles where such citations are strictly required (ie. not subject to local consensus.) The first sentence is clearly just talking about cases where they have not been required by the first paragraph. -- Aquillion ( talk) 23:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
That’s assuming that it’s "precise, careful wording" and not just a wordy version of "The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required nor prohibited." The sentence
was removed with the edit summary Removed redundant statement. It adds nothing to what has already been said in the 2 paras above
, and
reinstated with the summary summarizes, and makes the content of
Template:Not verified in body easier to understand
. The template documentation says about its usage that More specifically, many articles, including the bulk of featured articles, do not contain any citations in the lead, because the lead section in them is used to summarize the content in the body of the article, which already contains citations for the summarized content. Thus, this template should only be used:
*In articles which already have substantial sourcing; and
*The lead is clearly written as a summary of the content; but
*One of the facts in the lead is not verified in the article's body and you seek verification of that fact.
I don’t think the first two bullet points can be disputed. I don’t remember ever having seen the template not verified in body used in the lead but there were a few times when readers sought verification on the Talk page. Mostly, though, the complaints weren’t about missing cites in the lead, they were about substance (e.g., don’t mention the 4,000 lawsuits in the lead). How is double-citing the source going to help in those instances?
I’ve slogged through the history of the Lead_section#Citations in the the archives of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section looking for the source of "Any statements about living persons that are challenged or likely to be challenged must have an inline citation every time they are mentioned, including within the lead", in vain. W:V merely states that "material … must be verifiable and that "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations" (we’re not using any quotations in the lead); W:BLPSOURCE similarly that "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation". MOS is style, not policy. If anybody wants to take a look at the discussions, here’s the list: 2006, 2006, 2007/1, 2007/2, 2007/3, 2007/4, 2007/5, 2007/6, 2007/7, 2007/8, 2009, 2010/1, 2010/2, 2011, 2013, 2015. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:50, 19 April 2022 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Considering the size of the archives, there hasn’t been that much discussion. "No cites in the lead" was the consensus. I may have missed some discussions whose headings didn’t mention the lead or citations or when I got sidetracked into reading various discussions. Archive 12, Archive 19, Archive 26 with RfC clarification, Archive 29, Archive 41, Archive 70, Archive 96, Archive 108, Archive 138, Archive 142, Archive 144
A couple of quotes from Archive 96:
Long-standing consensus at this article has it that the cost of citations in the lead (visual clutter) would exceed their benefit. Editors make an effort to ensure that the lead summarizes cited content in the body. More generally, I would argue that "unusual" does not equate to "strange" and is anything but a Bad Thing; rather, emphasis on consistency tends to ensure consistently mediocre content. It would be different if there were a community consensus that leads should have cites, but there is not one. The community has left this to our discretion, and we have exercised it. (Editor Mandruss, 23:16, 22 March 2019 (UTC))
I’m generally opposed to having citations in the lede of any article, but most especially the fulsome biographies you often get with politicians. Citations in the lede of a US president are extremely rare. The most recent president with citations (and only a couple) is Jimmy Carter, and before that JFK, so it's been a long standing convention to avoid them. (Editor Scjessey, 13:19, 23 March 2019 (UTC)) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:21, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
In the third paragraph, the article states that Trump made many false and misleading statements during his presidency, or something along those lines. I suggest that we change that to something along the lines of “Trump made many statements during his presidency that some consider to be false or misleading.” I think this would be a worthwhile change, as it will adhere more to the neutrality policy of Wikipedia while also not making too substantial of a change to the article. Thanks! 2600:8800:E0B:1600:A558:6CA1:BF9B:4450 ( talk) 20:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
Where is the history of Donald's extensive connections and involvement with the NYC Mafia, such as boss Fat Tony Salerno, or Trump employee, Felix Slater? There have been a number of reports or articles about it over the years, with a recent refocus of it during his 2015-2016 presidential campaign. Why was this information removed from the article? Did Donald Trump or his associates remove this? I don't remember how developed it was on here, but there is a reasonably extensive history on it, including the federal Grand Jury investigation that was conducted on Donald Trump in the 1990s by the Southern District of NY and quietly dismissed through the influence of his sister, who was employed as an ADA in that office at the time.
Are there other Trump articles (that I am not mentioning or have overlooked) that should be included in a See Also Section? is there a separate Wikipedia article on his personal upbringing, or other aspects of his history?While the articles from Internet 1.0 are likely forever gone from our inclusion here through article/forum scrubbing and media aging, too much seems to be missing from this article, that was once here. It warrants a deeper look into what has been removed and refrabricated, either by Trump devotees or paid editors... Stevenmitchell ( talk) 08:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
To start off the discussion, here's three sentences that appear to be deserving of a citation, and the sources from the body that best verify them.
Trump made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics, [1] and promoted conspiracy theories. [2]
Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist, [3] and many as misogynistic. [4] [5]
Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. [6]
References
Since the sources already exist in the body, they'll be easy to duplicate in the lead without adding much size ( example). I do think it's best to start out with only a few citations at first for the most controversial content. –– FormalDude talk 01:21, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citationsas meaning "to boldly go" first and then discuss. I'm trying to muster enough energy (and overcome my inner resistance) to go through past archives to look up the sentences that
elicited the most whining from SPAs and IP editors, to quote Zaathras, and what reasons, if any, were given. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
material challenged or likely to be challenged(citing your comment in the RfC). Our lead (summary) needs to repeat citations given in the full text, but I'm supposed to accept an Abstract (summary) of a full text that I can't read for verification of the claims made in the abstract? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 10:09, 13 May 2022 (UTC) My apology for the error. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 13:47, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
In order to complete your request, Library Card needs permission to access information about you, including your email address, on all projects of this site. No changes will be made with your account.I looked at the sign-up page and the terms of use and privacy statement, in particular the Important Note, when I got the notification on January 26 and decided against signing up.
The lead is based on the body and frequently explicit consensus from the talk page, so it's easy to find what the proper source should be; I don't think we'll find much disagreement on that.That is my argument for keeping cites out of the lead. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 14:15, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Those 3 sentences belong in the Trump administration article, IMHO. GoodDay ( talk) 13:20, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
I suggest we move the lead sentence "Trump's election and policies sparked numerous protests" to the end of the lead paragraph from the middle of it. As written, it reads to me like the protests are in reaction to the Russian interference issue. I think it makes more sense to first enumerate the issues protests were in reaction to (racism, conspiracy theories, etc), then after that to mention the protests.
I am posting the edit here because the sentence is marked "DO NOT CHANGE this sentence without prior consensus" and Zaathras complained on that basis with the move. As I wasn't editing the sentence, just moving it, I figured I was following the letter of the law, but I have no objection to following process here. As an aside, it might make sense to follow what was done for the Climate Change article and mark the entire lead section with "Please do not change the content in the lead section without prior discussion" instead of just selectively fencing off a few sentences.
Anyhow, I'm thinking I just wait a day to see if there's any objections to the edit, and if not I'll make the edit tomorrow. Let me know if there's a different system or objections to the edit (or in support of it). Thanks! -- Efbrazil ( talk) 16:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
"... government service"). I'm neutral on the proposed change vs. the status quo. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 16:38, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
"... government service") for years, then some idiot moved the Mueller investigation from the fifth paragraph up to the third and added it in the wrong place. The idiot in question being me, I just moved the sentence back to where it belongs. "Policies" refers to the political positions mentioned in the first sentence of the paragraph. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
I have been attempting to add information to the article regarding Trump tariffs that is getting reverted. The article currently has clear bias where we say things like "failure" based on opinion pieces and instead of data. Here are the facts:
1. The trade deficit with China went down after the tariffs were imposed. This is clear according to United States Census Data, shown here on an annualized basis: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html
I added a chart with that information here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Trade_Deficit.svg
I also removed the characterization that "the deficit reached its highest level in 12 years under his administration", which is a statement that could be made about any of our recent presidents if you just look at the chart. The facts are that the results of the trade war are mixed. The edit was reverted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=1088669286&oldid=1088655265
Don't you think the chart is a better characterization of the trade war than a sentence using a single data point to characterize the effects of the trade war as "nothing"?
2. I tried to remove the highly biased statement that the tariffs were "a failure" based on sourcing to liberal and business interest opinion articles. The edit was reverted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=1088669796&oldid=1088669286
Shouldn't we avoid saying things like "failure" based on opinion pieces and stick to facts instead?
3. If we are to going say things like "failure", then I figure we should probably add that Biden has kept the Trump tariffs in place. I guess he likes failures! I added that information from this source: https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/26/politics/china-tariffs-biden-policy/index.html
The edit was reverted here: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Donald_Trump&type=revision&diff=1088697893&oldid=1088697341
I guess because the editors here don't want Biden portrayed as a failure. That's Trump's role, right?
Look, all I am trying to do is replace clear bias in this article regarding trade with the facts of the matter. It looks to me like the editors here want to suppress any facts that don't portray Trump in a purely negative light. Is there any piece of information above regarding trade that anybody thinks we should put in the article, or has Trump derangement syndrome overtaken the editors of this article? Efbrazil ( talk) 17:36, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
deficit reached its highest level in 12 yearsis noteworthy because Trump had pledged to "sharply lower" it, per the source. Chart: It's not a characterization of the trade war at all because there may have well have been other factors that influenced the trade deficit, the pandemic, a war, the Ever Given, stuff reliable sources would factor into their reporting. (Also a spelling error, unless you want to include some other crisis or crises that occurred in 2008.) Bias: yeah, Trump Derangement Syndrome sounds totally unbiased. If you have RS saying Trump's trade war was a success or that it was not the failure other sources say it was, please present them. Biden: The appropriate page would be the one on Biden. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:32, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
liberal and business interest opinion articles; the Brookings Institution is perhaps the most well-regarded think-tank in the world and is generally considered roughly neutral, while Bloomberg and CNN are both high-quality neutral sources suitable for statements of fact. -- Aquillion ( talk) 18:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
characterized as, I guess. -- Aquillion ( talk) 21:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Markell_West, what's with the hyphenation here, here, and here? Financial disclosure forms, property tax abatement, and consumer goods companies are non-hyphenated compound nouns, not nouns modified by a compound adjective. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 17:03, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
It says in the intro, "Trump graduated from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's degree in 1968." Shouldn't the subject (economics) be stated? Arctic Gazelle ( talk) 06:41, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
No, because it doesn’t relate to his notability. If you erase his media, business, and political career, and all he has is his Econ degree, he wouldn’t be notable enough to be on WP.
Also the reasons for his notability (careers in business, media, and politics), none of those three required a degree in economics. If he was a notable economist or economics professor, then yes it should be included in the lead. But it doesn’t pertain to his notability. Mrbeastmodeallday ( talk) 09:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
All Wharton students graduate with a Bachelor of Science in economics, but students choose areas of study called concentrations.Trump graduated from Wharton with a concentration in real estate. It shows that he had an interest in his father's real estate business. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 19:19, 26 May 2022 (UTC)