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This is surely a subsection that this article can do without, especially given the article's extreme size. An example of something that seemed much bigger at the time than it does now and will seem in the future. Thoughts? Onetwothreeip ( talk) 06:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
On June 1, 2020, federal law enforcement officials used batons, rubber bullets, pepper spray projectiles, stun grenades, and smoke to remove a largely peaceful crowd of protesters from Lafayette Square. Trump then walked to St. John's Episcopal Church, posing for photographs with a Bible. Many religious leaders and military officials condemned the treatment of protesters and photo opportunity itself.Thanoscar21 talk contributions 16:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The confrontation in Lafayette Square near the White House in June crystallized for the Defense Department just how close to the precipice the military came to being pulled into a domestic political crisis. Military helicopters and armed members of the National Guard patrolled the streets next to federal agents in riot gear so that the president, flanked by Mr. Esper and General Milley, could walk across the square to hold up a Bible in front of St. John’s Episcopal Church. Current and former members of the armed forces were outraged. ... Both men, but General Milley especially, were so sharply criticized by former military and Pentagon leaders for taking part in the walk that they spent the days afterward in serious damage control.Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
it's just not particularly notable or important: You’re entitled to your opinion but many current and former military leaders ( [4]), major newspapers (see above), and experts ( [5]) disagree.
makes the Lafayette Square incident more significant: You’re misrepresenting what I wrote. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 13:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC) This just in: WaPo, Jan 14, 2021 Adding quote:
These two demonstrations, at the most prominent symbols of democracy in the nation’s capital, will define Trump’s legacy, highlighting the divisions he has stoked and the disparate treatment of Black and White people in America by law enforcement.Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:58, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Is this the Schrödinger's cat equivalent of discussion, saying that sources both said it was significant and it wasn't? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 14:14, 16 January 2021 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 14:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is the only article (of a person who is alive) in the entirety of Wikipedia where the first sentence is in past tense. Shouldn't it read something like "Donald Trump is a businessman and former television personality whom served as 45th president.
The current status of the first sentence of the article says he WAS president in past tense and no present tense description of trump, suggesting he is dead. Is this some sort of fantasy by the editor who wrote the sentence? Bias? Can we please fix the sentence?
Megat503 ( talk) 18:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Donald Trump's presidency is coming to a close. At what time should it be removed? Félix An ( talk) 23:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Good afternoon! I want this page to reflect just as JFK’ page refers to his nickname as Jack, Trumps should be referred to as what most might call, the worst president in american history 2601:642:4700:AF90:8CCB:1657:42FC:B70E ( talk) 19:53, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Donald WAS the president. He lost office. Abarnesh ( talk) 20:26, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
i saw you forgot some facts about some pages i was researching 2601:140:8400:2F50:B43D:984:CB9:CAC4 ( talk) 19:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, I added a couple of the awards that Trump was given from other countries including, yesterday, the highest award from Morocco, the Order of Muhammad, and they were immediately deleted as "TRIVIA" (15:44, 16 January 2021), leaving eventually the ONLY entry in that section being that Trump had had relatively trivia honorary doctorates revoked! Wikipedia really needs to get its act together on political topics as neutrality has gone out of the window in recent years, using highly selective citations to push agendas rather than attempting to obtain a broader NPOV. Harami2000 ( talk) 19:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
To my mind it should be a list (if we must have it) of only highly respected awards.
Slatersteven (
talk) 19:38, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I would be OK with removing the whole section. SPECIFICO talk 00:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Remember folks, if RS don't care why should we?
Slatersteven (
talk) 09:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above regarding what to change the lead to seems to have no consensus. Obviously, something has to happen in ~75 minutes, but what should it be? The last proposal (with
Levivich's adaptation) Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States, serving from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and real estate developer.
seems to have the strongest consensus as a temporary solution.
I will be monitoring the page closely to prevent any disruption, and so can make any changes if needed.
Giraffer (
talk·
contribs) 15:53, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who served as 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and real estate developer.I re-iterate my point that this will most likely be a temporary solution. Giraffer ( talk· contribs) 16:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
ProcrastinatingReader (I apologise for the mass ping but this is urgent). Unless anyone has any major opposition I'm going to go with Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and buisninessman.
Giraffer (
talk·
contribs) 16:47, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
wasat all: that implies that he died. We say
Donald Trump is the former Presidentor whatever. — Czello 16:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
"waS" does not imply he died. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The lead now says that he is a businessman in the first sentence, and in the second sentence that he was a businessman (again). I tried to fix it, but someone didn't agree and reverted. Thayts ••• 17:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This discussion is astonishing. Can somebody explain how using "was" to describe someone's previous office implies they are deceased? Especially if we are saying he is a politician who was a president. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 21:15, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me like there is no major opposition to the last suggestion, so at noon I will change the lead to Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and businessman.
I will keep the wikilinks. Thank you all for your input.
Giraffer (
talk·
contribs) 16:57, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
seems to me like there is no major opposition. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 20:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This satisfies both arguments and sounds natural to my ears. JaredHWood 💬 03:24, 21 January 2021 (UTC)is a politician who was elected the 45th president of the United States
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nothing would happen if we placed it earlier by just two minutes... --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 16:59, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
What "national nightmare?" Stop emoting. Tpkatsa ( talk) 17:43, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Ever notice how edits go back and forth when statuses are about to change? [[User:Rickyrab2|Rickyrab (2nd account)!]] | [[Talk:Rickyrab2| yada yada yada]] (old page: [[User:Rickyrab]]) ( talk) 08:12, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Continuing from the discussion above, should it be mentioned in the article that Trump has two arrest warrants issued by Iraq and Iran for the killing of Soleimani? -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 15:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The two sentences can be seen removed here.
Sources: Reuters, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, Euronews, The Sun, Fox8, Al Jazeera, Jerusalem Post, Daily Mail, France24, Khaleej Times, Haaretz. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 15:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's highly unlikely anything will happen between now and January 20 that will affect the changes to the first paragraph on that day. Therefore, for the sake of an orderly "transition", I think it makes sense to go ahead and establish a new consensus for that paragraph. paragraph, to be implemented at noon Eastern Standard Time (5 p.m. UTC) on January 20. Otherwise there will be a lot of instability in the most visible part of the article, likely lasting for a number of days.
As a procedural note, any consensus here should modify, not supersede, Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus#Current consensus #17 on the 20th. I think that's preferable to a new list item, as some of the discussions linked in #17 will still apply.
No discussion is needed for the infobox changes on the 20th:
|term_end=January 20, 2021
|successor=[[Joe Biden]]
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.
Trump is an American far-right politician and conspiracy theorist who served as president of the United States from 2017 to 2021, followed by a sentence about his possible current activities (e.g. if he runs a far-right, Breitbart-like TV channel). -- Tataral ( talk) 09:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
consensus of reliable sources, since it's irrelevant here. There are plenty of consensuses of reliable sources that are not reflected in the first paragraph because they don't belong in the first paragraph. Even the first paragraph of Adolf Hitler refrains from such characterizations, and a reader who knew nothing about Hitler would have to read further to discover what a stain on humanity he was. That's called "being encyclopedic". ― Mandruss ☎ 09:46, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
|
Per
MOS:SPECIFICLINK, the first sentence ought to link to
Presidency of Donald Trump, not
President of the United States, as the former is more specific and much more likely to be useful to readers. To avoid a
MOS:EGG issue, we could make the link over 45th president of the United States
rather than just president of the United States
. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk 22:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
much more likely to be useful. Also notable is that a reader can easily navigate Donald Trump -> Presidency of Donald Trump -> President of the United States, but not Donald Trump -> President of the United States -> Presidency of Donald Trump (particularly after January 20).
Why can't you leave well enough alone.Well, we disagree that it's "well enough". Obviously. So you are resting on a premise that is itself your opinion. That's not how reasoning should work.
an editor-in-chief would reject such proposals.By design, Wikipedia does not have an editor-in-chief. We go by consensus instead. If you want to play editor-in-chief, go start your own encyclopedia with my best wishes for success.
Would you be content, if we had a mixture of showing & not showing successors-to-be in these bio article's infoboxes, too?Probably not, but I'd say that consistency is more important than this minor linking difference, which would be noticed by few readers and cared about by virtually none (which is not to say it wouldn't be an improvement). That's why I pursued a community consensus on
|successor=
. Without a community consensus, I certainly wouldn't be seen insisting on cross-article consistency in that usage, and implying that everybody who disagrees with me was an incompetent idiot, as you incessantly and tiresomely do. ―
Mandruss
☎ 13:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
president of the United Statesto Presidency of Donald Trump as MOS:EGG.
45th president of the United StatesIMO is also a tad MOS:EGGy, looks more like a link to List of presidents of the United States. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
served as/was the 45th president of the United States. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 23:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
served as/was the 45th president of the United Statesother than Presidency of Donald Trump, so in my view it's about as EGG-compliant as you can get. And I think you made a great point above when you questioned
is MOS:EGG the most important thing?—I think it's clearly a concern, but it's not more important than giving readers links to the pages they are most likely to want to go to. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 20:13, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
and aim to avoid all piped links– (For the record, I didn't mean to go that far. His presidency is as predictable a link as Presidency of Donald Trump, but served as/was the 45th president of the United States is not. This is largely moot given the preceding points, but maybe worth clearing up anyway.) ― Mandruss ☎ 18:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
MOS:PUFFERY uses "public servants" as an example of loaded language, and served as
is a little better but still not preferable when we could just use the perfectly neutral Donald Trump was the 45th...
instead. Let's please not adopt the loaded terminology that politicians use to try to escape the connotations of their profession. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk 22:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was a businessman and television personality, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 04:09, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman and former television personality, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.Or, maybe the "former television personality" bit could be dropped now that it's over five years old.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.In either case, I think the comma preceding "who" is grammatically incorrect, even if it provides what might be considered a helpful pause in the sentence.This would reduce the paragraph to a single sentence, which is not a sin of writing but should be noted anyway. ― Mandruss ☎ 09:39, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.Awaiting overwhelming support for that, leaving the "Wikilinks" amendment as yet unresolved. ― Mandruss ☎ 10:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
...leaving the "Wikilinks" amendment as yet unresolved.If that was unclear, it was referring to the #Wikilinks section above. ― Mandruss ☎ 14:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman. He was the president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.I find the common phraseology X is a Y who is/was Z to be unnecessarily convoluted. AleatoryPonderings ( ???) ( !!!) 14:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
former politicianlike Schwarzenegger? Mandruss, Schwarzenegger has not returned to politics after his second term as governor ended. Trump's hints at running again may just have the purpose to induce supporters to donate to his PAC but what is the source for him leaving politics on January 20? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
-- Politicsfan4 ( talk) 22:54, 26 December 2020 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. A member of the Republican Party, Trump previously was a businessman and television personality before entering politics.
Oppose - "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a television personality and former businessman, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021" is better, "Was" Makes it seem read like he's dead, also Trump remains a Television Personality in a way, this wording makes it (more) clear that the subject is still alive. Hazelforest ( talk) 22:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Withdrawn― notifying
GoodDay,
MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken,
Mandruss
Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
---|---|---|
After further thought—or any thought, really—I'm submitting a proposal of my own. - sooo many highlights to choose from.
|
Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman, television personality, and politician who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. He is a member of the Republican Party. Prior to his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Prior to his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.? Onetwothreeip ( talk) 08:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. A member of the Republican Party, he was previously a businessman and a television personality.
Or:
Thanoscar21 talk contributions 13:37, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. He is a member of the Republican Party. Prior to his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"new suggestion" Donald Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman, television personality, high-stakes grifter, politician, and con-artist who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017-2021. He is almost universally regarded as the worst president of all time, by relevant experts. His presidency, informally known as the "Dark Ages" by American historians, was marked by rampant corruption and nepotism, attacks on democracy, tax cuts for the wealthy while gutting social services for ordinary Americans, government sanctioned torture of immigrants, the construction of concentration camps on US soil, impeachment, fealty to foreign leaders and dictators, the bungled handling of a global pandemic, an economic depression, high turnover of cabinet members and senior White House personnel; a flood of insults of foreign leaders, countries, and perceived opponents; …}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.30.187.155 ( talk) 21:03, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
The way things are going, do you see any consensus possible before January 20? I'm not seeing it. Perfect is the enemy of good, and we are all vigorously pursuing perfection with little willingness to compromise for the sake of consensus. What to do? ― Mandruss ☎ 11:05, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.That way we also have a link to Presidency of Donald Trump. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:13, 20 December 2020 (UTC) Assuming this is the first proposal we're talking about? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:34, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I would suggest one more tweak:- LOL. I rest my case. ― Mandruss ☎ 21:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
We'd be in a better place if those subsections had not been opened.I understand your point. When we have tried your method in the past, we often had editors creating dependent linkages between individual tweaks, as "Support only if Tweak X is made and Tweak Y is not made". If you want to drive yourself completely mad, try sorting out such tangles to divine a consensus. So we were faced with prohibiting such linkages (good luck) or giving up the separate-tweaks methodology. As it turned out, tweaks rarely exist in isolation, and both methods are about equally ineffective. But I'm not opposed to trying it again, and you can show us how it's done. ― Mandruss ☎ 18:30, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, this whole 'intro' discussion seems to have gotten ignored, these last few days. GoodDay ( talk) 16:14, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Interesting 'question' brought up at Kamala Harris. Do we need to say American politician or American anything? when it's the US president or US vice president? GoodDay ( talk) 00:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Discussion has largely stalled, I see no particular consensus for any of the "comprehensive" alternatives offered, and we have a mere 15 days before we have to do something with the first paragraph. Consistent with comments from multiple editors at #Light at end of tunnel?, I think we should establish a consensus for a bare minimum of change at noon EST on January 20, and then proceed with discussions about further incremental changes. There is no reason to defer those discussions until after the 20th, and it would save time to go ahead with them now, but they should not affect the interim consensus unless they also reach consensus before the 20th.
In my opinion it would be cleaner to start over with those discussions, separately from #First paragraph on Inauguration Day, since they are logically separate from the interim content. What we have now is a disorganized mess not really suitable for linking from the consensus list.
This is basically what I had in mind when I started this on 19 December, but I didn't express it clearly enough and we needed the experience of failure to see the need for it.
I see weak consensuses on one or two points, but they are not within "a bare minimum of change" and are not included in this proposal. Per standard process at this article – the entire first paragraph is covered by Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus#Current consensus item 17 – no edits to the first paragraph may be made without prior consensus, and any uninformed edits-without-consensus should be immediately reverted.
Is->was is less change than is->served as, so I'm proposing the former here on that basis alone.
This edit appears to be correct per #17, and I don't know how or when that link was removed.
Here is my proposal, then, for getting us past January 20. When evaluating it, don't ask whether it's optimal (it is not) but whether it's marginally acceptable in the short term. For my part, there are at least two things about it that I will strongly support changing after the 20th.
― Mandruss ☎ 17:55, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.
|successor=
for a recent example of this principle in action). You really, really – did I mention really? – need to understand this and cease making such arguments.If that is not enough, this is clearly not "a bare minimum change" for the short term, a condition that was clearly stipulated above. ―
Mandruss
☎ 18:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States, serving from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and real estate developer.Levivich harass/ hound 18:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States, serving from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a businessman and television personality.Jr8825 • Talk 06:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a television personality and former businessman, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021, "Was" Makes it seem read like he's dead, also Trump remains a Television Personality in a way, this wording makes it (more) clear that the subject is still alive. Hazelforest ( talk) 22:14, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should we really refer to Former President Donald Trump as an "American politician" in the first line if he's completely out of character with most politicians and doesn't have any political experience other than running as an outsider for the White House?
Personally, I felt the page was fine before the edit just to reflect his inexperience in this area, as the presidency is usually more of a terminal career rather than a supplemental one.
Golfpecks256 ( talk) 20:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Personally, I think "American politician" should be replaced with "American businessman and television personality" as a more accurate description of his career and persona, since the presidency seems to be an outlier in his overall career. Golfpecks256 ( talk) 20:40, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Where is the section on his booming economy pre COVID. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.112.191.139 ( talk) 01:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
It seems like this is the only article about a president that doesn't include a caption in the infobox. Most presidents use "Official portrait, {{{year}}}" as their caption, so Trump's would be "Official portrait, 2017". His infobox seems empty without it, and as far as I can tell, his is the only modern president to not include a caption. -- Politicsfan4 ( talk) 17:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Should there be an article added to presidency section about trump and the United States Space Force (USSF)? Mrmattu ( talk) 18:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Being it’s part of the force’s history, I would of thought it would of been added in somewhere e.g. authorised when Trump was in office. Etc. Mrmattu ( talk) 19:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
the only federal officeholder in the history of the United States to be impeached twice
is not the same thing as the (apparently -- sorry, I don't have an NYT subscription) sourced statement in the body that he is the first U.S. president to be impeached twice
. The majority of
federal officeholders in the United States to have been impeached were not presidents so the statement in the body doesn't imply the statement in the lead, and the lead is not allowed make different claims from the article body. Since it does seem that he is both the first U.S. president and the first U.S. federal officeholder to be impeached twice, I think a sourced statement to the latter effect should be incorporated into the body and the lead left unchanged, but what do others think? Since I don't have access to the source in the body to check whether it supports both claims, and since I don't advocate changing the lead, I can't make this change myself, but given the article I'd probably have taken it to talk first anyway.
Hijiri 88 (
聖
やや) 16:26, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
the first US officeholder, as HuffPo.au and now the body of the article claim. It's only a narrowly defined subset of US officeholders who can be impeached. The above-linked List of formal impeachments uses the word officers per the Constitution. Under current statutory U.S. definitions, all of the individuals listed are federal officials, and a few of them are also federal officeholders. Per 11 CFR 113.1, a "federal officeholder" is defined as
an individual elected to or serving in the office of President or Vice President of the United States; or a Senator or a Representative in, or Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress of the United States.. Per 44 USCS § 3315, a "federal official" is
any individual holding the office of President or Vice President of the United States, or Senator or Representative in, or Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress of the United States, or any officer of the executive, judicial, or legislative branch of the Federal Government. Other officeholders receive notices of termination. The lead says "federal officeholder" which is correct but currently only refers to four people. We'd probably be better off to stick to "first president," less chance for confusion. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Would it not be better to use "media personality" instead of "television personality" this can potentially be misleading (due to what it connotates) and it doesn't make mention of his broader media career including books and radio shows he attended. Just some friendly advice for consideration. Foxhound03 ( talk) 21:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Donald Trump's mental health. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 21#Donald Trump's mental health until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Sun8908── Talk 04:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Mandruss is taking a short Wikibreak, so I have taken the liberty of modifying Consensus item #17 per the consensus in this discussion. I don't know how to proceed from here. My proposal is a moratorium for a month or so, see what Trump is up to, and then start a new discussion about the first sentence and/or paragraph. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Giraffer: @ SPECIFICO: No, I didn’t replace your edit with Levivich's. This is my edit, i.e., the wording of the interim solution in consensus #17. It was "reverted" in two edits by Spark1498. Then AleatoryPonderings edited the sentence to comply with consensus #17, ForerunnerAT45 showed up and "corrected", SkyWarrior reverted to consensus 17; Abdul Muhammad1, and finally Ritchie333 "per suggestion on TP". Also pinging Sdkb and Levivich.
Three editors started new discussions here, here and here (pinging those I haven’t pinged yet Foxhound03, Golfpecks256). Sdkb, you proposed discussing the individual parts of the first paragraph instead of several complete proposals. The three discussions actually do that, with editors deciding that 8 comments in a 6-hour period is discussion enough and that the version they personally like best goes into the article. Is there any way we can get an actual discussion on a permanent consensus 17 going? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:34, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Seems pretty clear to me that #17 no longer has consensus at all and should just be stricken in its entirety for now (and the HTML comment removed from the lead of the article). (TBH, when I said thanks for updating #17, I didn't anticipate that it would be used as a tool to freeze the lead, as it now has been. I don't agree that the "second interim proposal" actually had consensus, or that anything has consensus post-inauguration. I thought the update was more a clerical notation than a new rule we must all follow.) The conversation about the lead seems productive to me, it's moving closer to agreement, with the remaining sticking points being "was/served as" and "businessman/real estate developer". Either way, let's let that convo continue, we'll get to consensus soon enough (at least on a lead sentence), at which point we can update #17. Levivich harass/ hound 19:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Donald Trump was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021" to "Donald Trump is an American politician who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021." The "was" implies that he's dead. Crucialpounds13 ( talk) 20:46, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
While we come to a consensus, could it at least be changed to one of the other suggestions in the meantime so that it doesn't say "was"? I feel like using "was" is the least effective choice, even if it's temporary! 100.15.176.110 ( talk) 21:03, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
I've been squeezing out outdated verb tenses in the article today - the annoying "has been", etc. I think that's for the better. In some cases it is modestly premature, but seemed innocuous to change now. I post here because I see such verb tenses (unsure of the precise wording to describe "has ...") are also in the lead; it would be a simple matter to correct such verbs to a simple past tense. But it is the lead, so I solicit something like a green light to just do it. e.g. "Trump's political positions have been described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist." should be left alone, but "His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. Trump has made many false and misleading statements..." to "His election and policies sparked numerous protests. Trump made many false and misleading statements...", etc. Bdushaw ( talk) 15:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a little ridiculous. The lead sentence still says "was"! I understand there have been ongoing discussions about this, but how is it that the default result in the meantime is "Donald John Trump was. . ." anything, which seems to be the worst possible option? Aren't the discussions more about whether to include politician, businessman, real estate developer, and/or media personality? While that is being debated, I don't think anyone was disputing that Trump "IS" something, and is not deceased. There seemed to be consensus to not begin the lead with "was." Please, for the love of god, change it so that he "is" something, even if it's "Donald John Trump is an American man who served. . ." -- SOMETHING! 100.15.176.110 ( talk) 00:38, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
is an American politician who was the 45this perfectly good grammar and does not violate WP:WAS. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 17:57, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the latest change to Consensus #17. I didn't see any formal closure of
Talk:Donald_Trump#Second_interim_proposal. Meanwhile there is
Talk:Donald_Trump#Lead_sentence_proposal.
starship
.paint (
exalt) 15:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Trying to put common sense into the intro of this article, is always so frustrating. For goodness sake, the lad is still alive & so using "was" is a bad comedy. GoodDay ( talk) 19:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
PS: BTW some of the dead former US presidents & vice presidents bios, also use "who served", oddly enough. GoodDay ( talk) 19:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
If we are using "served as" for practically all former government officials, I do not see any reason for using "was" in the article about Trump. Felix558 ( talk) 20:19, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Independent of the "was" controversy, I think defining him as a politician (and not a businessman or television personality) in the first sentence is UNDUE and inaccurate. I would favour the following. AleatoryPonderings ( ???) ( !!!) 02:16, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, businessman, and television personality who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The statement that Trump is the only federal officeholder in U.S. history to be impeached twice was recently removed from the lead section, with the edit summary "Reverting recently added trivia."
I disagree with this removal, and find it frankly baffling. His unprecedented second impeachment seems to me to be an obviously defining feature of his presidency and his life. Notably, the Encyclopedia Britannica mentions this exact fact in the fourth sentence of its entry on Trump ("Trump was the third president in U.S. history (after Andrew Johnson in 1868 and Bill Clinton in 1998) to be impeached by the U.S. House of Representatives and the only president to be impeached twice...").
Given that this is a high-traffic article and is on the main page right now, I'm seeking views of others with a view to an expedited restoration of this content. Neutrality talk 23:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am not American, however, I came across this page.
The page about Trump is vastly opinion-based with many connecting pages that are also opinion-based.
Wiki is supposed to be accurate to (facts) and impartial, note that public opinion & public news is not evidence of facts.
There are many other pages of people who have committed racism, yet the wiki pages have not permitted the data entries.
I am not personally a fan of Trump, however, I believe general statements are acceptable such as Trump was accused of racism, but opinion based entries should be removed.
Wiki is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a personal biography of individuals with data based on individual opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:C7A:4A00:3173:4A46:FEC8:29DC ( talk) 08:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 125 | ← | Archive 129 | Archive 130 | Archive 131 | Archive 132 | Archive 133 | → | Archive 135 |
This is surely a subsection that this article can do without, especially given the article's extreme size. An example of something that seemed much bigger at the time than it does now and will seem in the future. Thoughts? Onetwothreeip ( talk) 06:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
On June 1, 2020, federal law enforcement officials used batons, rubber bullets, pepper spray projectiles, stun grenades, and smoke to remove a largely peaceful crowd of protesters from Lafayette Square. Trump then walked to St. John's Episcopal Church, posing for photographs with a Bible. Many religious leaders and military officials condemned the treatment of protesters and photo opportunity itself.Thanoscar21 talk contributions 16:04, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The confrontation in Lafayette Square near the White House in June crystallized for the Defense Department just how close to the precipice the military came to being pulled into a domestic political crisis. Military helicopters and armed members of the National Guard patrolled the streets next to federal agents in riot gear so that the president, flanked by Mr. Esper and General Milley, could walk across the square to hold up a Bible in front of St. John’s Episcopal Church. Current and former members of the armed forces were outraged. ... Both men, but General Milley especially, were so sharply criticized by former military and Pentagon leaders for taking part in the walk that they spent the days afterward in serious damage control.Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
it's just not particularly notable or important: You’re entitled to your opinion but many current and former military leaders ( [4]), major newspapers (see above), and experts ( [5]) disagree.
makes the Lafayette Square incident more significant: You’re misrepresenting what I wrote. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 13:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC) This just in: WaPo, Jan 14, 2021 Adding quote:
These two demonstrations, at the most prominent symbols of democracy in the nation’s capital, will define Trump’s legacy, highlighting the divisions he has stoked and the disparate treatment of Black and White people in America by law enforcement.Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:58, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Is this the Schrödinger's cat equivalent of discussion, saying that sources both said it was significant and it wasn't? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 14:14, 16 January 2021 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 14:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is the only article (of a person who is alive) in the entirety of Wikipedia where the first sentence is in past tense. Shouldn't it read something like "Donald Trump is a businessman and former television personality whom served as 45th president.
The current status of the first sentence of the article says he WAS president in past tense and no present tense description of trump, suggesting he is dead. Is this some sort of fantasy by the editor who wrote the sentence? Bias? Can we please fix the sentence?
Megat503 ( talk) 18:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Donald Trump's presidency is coming to a close. At what time should it be removed? Félix An ( talk) 23:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Good afternoon! I want this page to reflect just as JFK’ page refers to his nickname as Jack, Trumps should be referred to as what most might call, the worst president in american history 2601:642:4700:AF90:8CCB:1657:42FC:B70E ( talk) 19:53, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Donald WAS the president. He lost office. Abarnesh ( talk) 20:26, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
i saw you forgot some facts about some pages i was researching 2601:140:8400:2F50:B43D:984:CB9:CAC4 ( talk) 19:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, I added a couple of the awards that Trump was given from other countries including, yesterday, the highest award from Morocco, the Order of Muhammad, and they were immediately deleted as "TRIVIA" (15:44, 16 January 2021), leaving eventually the ONLY entry in that section being that Trump had had relatively trivia honorary doctorates revoked! Wikipedia really needs to get its act together on political topics as neutrality has gone out of the window in recent years, using highly selective citations to push agendas rather than attempting to obtain a broader NPOV. Harami2000 ( talk) 19:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
To my mind it should be a list (if we must have it) of only highly respected awards.
Slatersteven (
talk) 19:38, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I would be OK with removing the whole section. SPECIFICO talk 00:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Remember folks, if RS don't care why should we?
Slatersteven (
talk) 09:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above regarding what to change the lead to seems to have no consensus. Obviously, something has to happen in ~75 minutes, but what should it be? The last proposal (with
Levivich's adaptation) Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States, serving from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and real estate developer.
seems to have the strongest consensus as a temporary solution.
I will be monitoring the page closely to prevent any disruption, and so can make any changes if needed.
Giraffer (
talk·
contribs) 15:53, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who served as 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and real estate developer.I re-iterate my point that this will most likely be a temporary solution. Giraffer ( talk· contribs) 16:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
ProcrastinatingReader (I apologise for the mass ping but this is urgent). Unless anyone has any major opposition I'm going to go with Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and buisninessman.
Giraffer (
talk·
contribs) 16:47, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
wasat all: that implies that he died. We say
Donald Trump is the former Presidentor whatever. — Czello 16:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
"waS" does not imply he died. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
The lead now says that he is a businessman in the first sentence, and in the second sentence that he was a businessman (again). I tried to fix it, but someone didn't agree and reverted. Thayts ••• 17:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This discussion is astonishing. Can somebody explain how using "was" to describe someone's previous office implies they are deceased? Especially if we are saying he is a politician who was a president. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 21:15, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me like there is no major opposition to the last suggestion, so at noon I will change the lead to Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and businessman.
I will keep the wikilinks. Thank you all for your input.
Giraffer (
talk·
contribs) 16:57, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
seems to me like there is no major opposition. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 20:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
This satisfies both arguments and sounds natural to my ears. JaredHWood 💬 03:24, 21 January 2021 (UTC)is a politician who was elected the 45th president of the United States
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nothing would happen if we placed it earlier by just two minutes... --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 16:59, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
What "national nightmare?" Stop emoting. Tpkatsa ( talk) 17:43, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Ever notice how edits go back and forth when statuses are about to change? [[User:Rickyrab2|Rickyrab (2nd account)!]] | [[Talk:Rickyrab2| yada yada yada]] (old page: [[User:Rickyrab]]) ( talk) 08:12, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Continuing from the discussion above, should it be mentioned in the article that Trump has two arrest warrants issued by Iraq and Iran for the killing of Soleimani? -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 15:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The two sentences can be seen removed here.
Sources: Reuters, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, Euronews, The Sun, Fox8, Al Jazeera, Jerusalem Post, Daily Mail, France24, Khaleej Times, Haaretz. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 15:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It's highly unlikely anything will happen between now and January 20 that will affect the changes to the first paragraph on that day. Therefore, for the sake of an orderly "transition", I think it makes sense to go ahead and establish a new consensus for that paragraph. paragraph, to be implemented at noon Eastern Standard Time (5 p.m. UTC) on January 20. Otherwise there will be a lot of instability in the most visible part of the article, likely lasting for a number of days.
As a procedural note, any consensus here should modify, not supersede, Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus#Current consensus #17 on the 20th. I think that's preferable to a new list item, as some of the discussions linked in #17 will still apply.
No discussion is needed for the infobox changes on the 20th:
|term_end=January 20, 2021
|successor=[[Joe Biden]]
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.
Trump is an American far-right politician and conspiracy theorist who served as president of the United States from 2017 to 2021, followed by a sentence about his possible current activities (e.g. if he runs a far-right, Breitbart-like TV channel). -- Tataral ( talk) 09:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
consensus of reliable sources, since it's irrelevant here. There are plenty of consensuses of reliable sources that are not reflected in the first paragraph because they don't belong in the first paragraph. Even the first paragraph of Adolf Hitler refrains from such characterizations, and a reader who knew nothing about Hitler would have to read further to discover what a stain on humanity he was. That's called "being encyclopedic". ― Mandruss ☎ 09:46, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
|
Per
MOS:SPECIFICLINK, the first sentence ought to link to
Presidency of Donald Trump, not
President of the United States, as the former is more specific and much more likely to be useful to readers. To avoid a
MOS:EGG issue, we could make the link over 45th president of the United States
rather than just president of the United States
. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk 22:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
much more likely to be useful. Also notable is that a reader can easily navigate Donald Trump -> Presidency of Donald Trump -> President of the United States, but not Donald Trump -> President of the United States -> Presidency of Donald Trump (particularly after January 20).
Why can't you leave well enough alone.Well, we disagree that it's "well enough". Obviously. So you are resting on a premise that is itself your opinion. That's not how reasoning should work.
an editor-in-chief would reject such proposals.By design, Wikipedia does not have an editor-in-chief. We go by consensus instead. If you want to play editor-in-chief, go start your own encyclopedia with my best wishes for success.
Would you be content, if we had a mixture of showing & not showing successors-to-be in these bio article's infoboxes, too?Probably not, but I'd say that consistency is more important than this minor linking difference, which would be noticed by few readers and cared about by virtually none (which is not to say it wouldn't be an improvement). That's why I pursued a community consensus on
|successor=
. Without a community consensus, I certainly wouldn't be seen insisting on cross-article consistency in that usage, and implying that everybody who disagrees with me was an incompetent idiot, as you incessantly and tiresomely do. ―
Mandruss
☎ 13:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
president of the United Statesto Presidency of Donald Trump as MOS:EGG.
45th president of the United StatesIMO is also a tad MOS:EGGy, looks more like a link to List of presidents of the United States. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
served as/was the 45th president of the United States. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 23:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
served as/was the 45th president of the United Statesother than Presidency of Donald Trump, so in my view it's about as EGG-compliant as you can get. And I think you made a great point above when you questioned
is MOS:EGG the most important thing?—I think it's clearly a concern, but it's not more important than giving readers links to the pages they are most likely to want to go to. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 20:13, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
and aim to avoid all piped links– (For the record, I didn't mean to go that far. His presidency is as predictable a link as Presidency of Donald Trump, but served as/was the 45th president of the United States is not. This is largely moot given the preceding points, but maybe worth clearing up anyway.) ― Mandruss ☎ 18:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
MOS:PUFFERY uses "public servants" as an example of loaded language, and served as
is a little better but still not preferable when we could just use the perfectly neutral Donald Trump was the 45th...
instead. Let's please not adopt the loaded terminology that politicians use to try to escape the connotations of their profession. {{u|
Sdkb}}
talk 22:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was a businessman and television personality, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 04:09, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman and former television personality, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.Or, maybe the "former television personality" bit could be dropped now that it's over five years old.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.In either case, I think the comma preceding "who" is grammatically incorrect, even if it provides what might be considered a helpful pause in the sentence.This would reduce the paragraph to a single sentence, which is not a sin of writing but should be noted anyway. ― Mandruss ☎ 09:39, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.Awaiting overwhelming support for that, leaving the "Wikilinks" amendment as yet unresolved. ― Mandruss ☎ 10:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
...leaving the "Wikilinks" amendment as yet unresolved.If that was unclear, it was referring to the #Wikilinks section above. ― Mandruss ☎ 14:48, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman. He was the president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.I find the common phraseology X is a Y who is/was Z to be unnecessarily convoluted. AleatoryPonderings ( ???) ( !!!) 14:43, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
former politicianlike Schwarzenegger? Mandruss, Schwarzenegger has not returned to politics after his second term as governor ended. Trump's hints at running again may just have the purpose to induce supporters to donate to his PAC but what is the source for him leaving politics on January 20? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
-- Politicsfan4 ( talk) 22:54, 26 December 2020 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. A member of the Republican Party, Trump previously was a businessman and television personality before entering politics.
Oppose - "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a television personality and former businessman, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021" is better, "Was" Makes it seem read like he's dead, also Trump remains a Television Personality in a way, this wording makes it (more) clear that the subject is still alive. Hazelforest ( talk) 22:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
Withdrawn― notifying
GoodDay,
MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken,
Mandruss
Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC) | ||
---|---|---|
After further thought—or any thought, really—I'm submitting a proposal of my own. - sooo many highlights to choose from.
|
Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 15:23, 19 December 2020 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman, television personality, and politician who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. He is a member of the Republican Party. Prior to his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Prior to his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.? Onetwothreeip ( talk) 08:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. A member of the Republican Party, he was previously a businessman and a television personality.
Or:
Thanoscar21 talk contributions 13:37, 22 December 2020 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. He is a member of the Republican Party. Prior to his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"new suggestion" Donald Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a businessman, television personality, high-stakes grifter, politician, and con-artist who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017-2021. He is almost universally regarded as the worst president of all time, by relevant experts. His presidency, informally known as the "Dark Ages" by American historians, was marked by rampant corruption and nepotism, attacks on democracy, tax cuts for the wealthy while gutting social services for ordinary Americans, government sanctioned torture of immigrants, the construction of concentration camps on US soil, impeachment, fealty to foreign leaders and dictators, the bungled handling of a global pandemic, an economic depression, high turnover of cabinet members and senior White House personnel; a flood of insults of foreign leaders, countries, and perceived opponents; …}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.30.187.155 ( talk) 21:03, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
The way things are going, do you see any consensus possible before January 20? I'm not seeing it. Perfect is the enemy of good, and we are all vigorously pursuing perfection with little willingness to compromise for the sake of consensus. What to do? ― Mandruss ☎ 11:05, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before his presidency, he was a businessman and television personality.That way we also have a link to Presidency of Donald Trump. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:13, 20 December 2020 (UTC) Assuming this is the first proposal we're talking about? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 21:34, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I would suggest one more tweak:- LOL. I rest my case. ― Mandruss ☎ 21:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
We'd be in a better place if those subsections had not been opened.I understand your point. When we have tried your method in the past, we often had editors creating dependent linkages between individual tweaks, as "Support only if Tweak X is made and Tweak Y is not made". If you want to drive yourself completely mad, try sorting out such tangles to divine a consensus. So we were faced with prohibiting such linkages (good luck) or giving up the separate-tweaks methodology. As it turned out, tweaks rarely exist in isolation, and both methods are about equally ineffective. But I'm not opposed to trying it again, and you can show us how it's done. ― Mandruss ☎ 18:30, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Well, this whole 'intro' discussion seems to have gotten ignored, these last few days. GoodDay ( talk) 16:14, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Interesting 'question' brought up at Kamala Harris. Do we need to say American politician or American anything? when it's the US president or US vice president? GoodDay ( talk) 00:02, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Discussion has largely stalled, I see no particular consensus for any of the "comprehensive" alternatives offered, and we have a mere 15 days before we have to do something with the first paragraph. Consistent with comments from multiple editors at #Light at end of tunnel?, I think we should establish a consensus for a bare minimum of change at noon EST on January 20, and then proceed with discussions about further incremental changes. There is no reason to defer those discussions until after the 20th, and it would save time to go ahead with them now, but they should not affect the interim consensus unless they also reach consensus before the 20th.
In my opinion it would be cleaner to start over with those discussions, separately from #First paragraph on Inauguration Day, since they are logically separate from the interim content. What we have now is a disorganized mess not really suitable for linking from the consensus list.
This is basically what I had in mind when I started this on 19 December, but I didn't express it clearly enough and we needed the experience of failure to see the need for it.
I see weak consensuses on one or two points, but they are not within "a bare minimum of change" and are not included in this proposal. Per standard process at this article – the entire first paragraph is covered by Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus#Current consensus item 17 – no edits to the first paragraph may be made without prior consensus, and any uninformed edits-without-consensus should be immediately reverted.
Is->was is less change than is->served as, so I'm proposing the former here on that basis alone.
This edit appears to be correct per #17, and I don't know how or when that link was removed.
Here is my proposal, then, for getting us past January 20. When evaluating it, don't ask whether it's optimal (it is not) but whether it's marginally acceptable in the short term. For my part, there are at least two things about it that I will strongly support changing after the 20th.
― Mandruss ☎ 17:55, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.
|successor=
for a recent example of this principle in action). You really, really – did I mention really? – need to understand this and cease making such arguments.If that is not enough, this is clearly not "a bare minimum change" for the short term, a condition that was clearly stipulated above. ―
Mandruss
☎ 18:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States, serving from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a television personality and real estate developer.Levivich harass/ hound 18:02, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) was the 45th president of the United States, serving from 2017 to 2021. Before being elected, he was a businessman and television personality.Jr8825 • Talk 06:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a television personality and former businessman, who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021, "Was" Makes it seem read like he's dead, also Trump remains a Television Personality in a way, this wording makes it (more) clear that the subject is still alive. Hazelforest ( talk) 22:14, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should we really refer to Former President Donald Trump as an "American politician" in the first line if he's completely out of character with most politicians and doesn't have any political experience other than running as an outsider for the White House?
Personally, I felt the page was fine before the edit just to reflect his inexperience in this area, as the presidency is usually more of a terminal career rather than a supplemental one.
Golfpecks256 ( talk) 20:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Personally, I think "American politician" should be replaced with "American businessman and television personality" as a more accurate description of his career and persona, since the presidency seems to be an outlier in his overall career. Golfpecks256 ( talk) 20:40, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Where is the section on his booming economy pre COVID. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.112.191.139 ( talk) 01:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
It seems like this is the only article about a president that doesn't include a caption in the infobox. Most presidents use "Official portrait, {{{year}}}" as their caption, so Trump's would be "Official portrait, 2017". His infobox seems empty without it, and as far as I can tell, his is the only modern president to not include a caption. -- Politicsfan4 ( talk) 17:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Should there be an article added to presidency section about trump and the United States Space Force (USSF)? Mrmattu ( talk) 18:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Being it’s part of the force’s history, I would of thought it would of been added in somewhere e.g. authorised when Trump was in office. Etc. Mrmattu ( talk) 19:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
the only federal officeholder in the history of the United States to be impeached twice
is not the same thing as the (apparently -- sorry, I don't have an NYT subscription) sourced statement in the body that he is the first U.S. president to be impeached twice
. The majority of
federal officeholders in the United States to have been impeached were not presidents so the statement in the body doesn't imply the statement in the lead, and the lead is not allowed make different claims from the article body. Since it does seem that he is both the first U.S. president and the first U.S. federal officeholder to be impeached twice, I think a sourced statement to the latter effect should be incorporated into the body and the lead left unchanged, but what do others think? Since I don't have access to the source in the body to check whether it supports both claims, and since I don't advocate changing the lead, I can't make this change myself, but given the article I'd probably have taken it to talk first anyway.
Hijiri 88 (
聖
やや) 16:26, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
the first US officeholder, as HuffPo.au and now the body of the article claim. It's only a narrowly defined subset of US officeholders who can be impeached. The above-linked List of formal impeachments uses the word officers per the Constitution. Under current statutory U.S. definitions, all of the individuals listed are federal officials, and a few of them are also federal officeholders. Per 11 CFR 113.1, a "federal officeholder" is defined as
an individual elected to or serving in the office of President or Vice President of the United States; or a Senator or a Representative in, or Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress of the United States.. Per 44 USCS § 3315, a "federal official" is
any individual holding the office of President or Vice President of the United States, or Senator or Representative in, or Delegate or Resident Commissioner to, the Congress of the United States, or any officer of the executive, judicial, or legislative branch of the Federal Government. Other officeholders receive notices of termination. The lead says "federal officeholder" which is correct but currently only refers to four people. We'd probably be better off to stick to "first president," less chance for confusion. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC) Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 16:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Would it not be better to use "media personality" instead of "television personality" this can potentially be misleading (due to what it connotates) and it doesn't make mention of his broader media career including books and radio shows he attended. Just some friendly advice for consideration. Foxhound03 ( talk) 21:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Donald Trump's mental health. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 21#Donald Trump's mental health until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Sun8908── Talk 04:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Mandruss is taking a short Wikibreak, so I have taken the liberty of modifying Consensus item #17 per the consensus in this discussion. I don't know how to proceed from here. My proposal is a moratorium for a month or so, see what Trump is up to, and then start a new discussion about the first sentence and/or paragraph. Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 18:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Giraffer: @ SPECIFICO: No, I didn’t replace your edit with Levivich's. This is my edit, i.e., the wording of the interim solution in consensus #17. It was "reverted" in two edits by Spark1498. Then AleatoryPonderings edited the sentence to comply with consensus #17, ForerunnerAT45 showed up and "corrected", SkyWarrior reverted to consensus 17; Abdul Muhammad1, and finally Ritchie333 "per suggestion on TP". Also pinging Sdkb and Levivich.
Three editors started new discussions here, here and here (pinging those I haven’t pinged yet Foxhound03, Golfpecks256). Sdkb, you proposed discussing the individual parts of the first paragraph instead of several complete proposals. The three discussions actually do that, with editors deciding that 8 comments in a 6-hour period is discussion enough and that the version they personally like best goes into the article. Is there any way we can get an actual discussion on a permanent consensus 17 going? Space4Time3Continuum2x ( talk) 12:34, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Seems pretty clear to me that #17 no longer has consensus at all and should just be stricken in its entirety for now (and the HTML comment removed from the lead of the article). (TBH, when I said thanks for updating #17, I didn't anticipate that it would be used as a tool to freeze the lead, as it now has been. I don't agree that the "second interim proposal" actually had consensus, or that anything has consensus post-inauguration. I thought the update was more a clerical notation than a new rule we must all follow.) The conversation about the lead seems productive to me, it's moving closer to agreement, with the remaining sticking points being "was/served as" and "businessman/real estate developer". Either way, let's let that convo continue, we'll get to consensus soon enough (at least on a lead sentence), at which point we can update #17. Levivich harass/ hound 19:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Donald Trump has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "Donald Trump was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021" to "Donald Trump is an American politician who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021." The "was" implies that he's dead. Crucialpounds13 ( talk) 20:46, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
While we come to a consensus, could it at least be changed to one of the other suggestions in the meantime so that it doesn't say "was"? I feel like using "was" is the least effective choice, even if it's temporary! 100.15.176.110 ( talk) 21:03, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
I've been squeezing out outdated verb tenses in the article today - the annoying "has been", etc. I think that's for the better. In some cases it is modestly premature, but seemed innocuous to change now. I post here because I see such verb tenses (unsure of the precise wording to describe "has ...") are also in the lead; it would be a simple matter to correct such verbs to a simple past tense. But it is the lead, so I solicit something like a green light to just do it. e.g. "Trump's political positions have been described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist." should be left alone, but "His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. Trump has made many false and misleading statements..." to "His election and policies sparked numerous protests. Trump made many false and misleading statements...", etc. Bdushaw ( talk) 15:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a little ridiculous. The lead sentence still says "was"! I understand there have been ongoing discussions about this, but how is it that the default result in the meantime is "Donald John Trump was. . ." anything, which seems to be the worst possible option? Aren't the discussions more about whether to include politician, businessman, real estate developer, and/or media personality? While that is being debated, I don't think anyone was disputing that Trump "IS" something, and is not deceased. There seemed to be consensus to not begin the lead with "was." Please, for the love of god, change it so that he "is" something, even if it's "Donald John Trump is an American man who served. . ." -- SOMETHING! 100.15.176.110 ( talk) 00:38, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
is an American politician who was the 45this perfectly good grammar and does not violate WP:WAS. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 17:57, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the latest change to Consensus #17. I didn't see any formal closure of
Talk:Donald_Trump#Second_interim_proposal. Meanwhile there is
Talk:Donald_Trump#Lead_sentence_proposal.
starship
.paint (
exalt) 15:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Trying to put common sense into the intro of this article, is always so frustrating. For goodness sake, the lad is still alive & so using "was" is a bad comedy. GoodDay ( talk) 19:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
PS: BTW some of the dead former US presidents & vice presidents bios, also use "who served", oddly enough. GoodDay ( talk) 19:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
If we are using "served as" for practically all former government officials, I do not see any reason for using "was" in the article about Trump. Felix558 ( talk) 20:19, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Independent of the "was" controversy, I think defining him as a politician (and not a businessman or television personality) in the first sentence is UNDUE and inaccurate. I would favour the following. AleatoryPonderings ( ???) ( !!!) 02:16, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, businessman, and television personality who was the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The statement that Trump is the only federal officeholder in U.S. history to be impeached twice was recently removed from the lead section, with the edit summary "Reverting recently added trivia."
I disagree with this removal, and find it frankly baffling. His unprecedented second impeachment seems to me to be an obviously defining feature of his presidency and his life. Notably, the Encyclopedia Britannica mentions this exact fact in the fourth sentence of its entry on Trump ("Trump was the third president in U.S. history (after Andrew Johnson in 1868 and Bill Clinton in 1998) to be impeached by the U.S. House of Representatives and the only president to be impeached twice...").
Given that this is a high-traffic article and is on the main page right now, I'm seeking views of others with a view to an expedited restoration of this content. Neutrality talk 23:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am not American, however, I came across this page.
The page about Trump is vastly opinion-based with many connecting pages that are also opinion-based.
Wiki is supposed to be accurate to (facts) and impartial, note that public opinion & public news is not evidence of facts.
There are many other pages of people who have committed racism, yet the wiki pages have not permitted the data entries.
I am not personally a fan of Trump, however, I believe general statements are acceptable such as Trump was accused of racism, but opinion based entries should be removed.
Wiki is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a personal biography of individuals with data based on individual opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:C7A:4A00:3173:4A46:FEC8:29DC ( talk) 08:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)